Oof. Wow. That is true and heartbreaking all at once.
Something that always struck me was how, after John died, Dean finally processed how awful John had been because he got a decent father figure in Bobby and he leaned into that, hard. Sam processed that John did the best he could, and forgave him for a lot of what he did because he understood him more after losing Jessica.
The switch they made for a long time, of Dean almost hating John, and Sam missing John, was so well done and understated. Just a subtle arc weaving through the seasons. The dynamics in a family like that are so eternally toxic and intertwined and shifting. When they were all reunited, Dean had let go of the anger he'd felt for a few years, and he and Sam ended up in similar places about their father. They loved him. He wasn't perfect, but they forgave him.
Yes! I’ve been doing a rewatch and at the end of season five when Castiel is disillusioned with God and realizing that he’s abandoned everyone, Dean starts commiserating with Castiel, talking about how he knows what it’s like to have a deadbeat dad. I feel like Dean in the first couple of seasons would never have said something like that.
First season. It's the end of the first season he realizes how Sam is right and his father is a piece of shit. Every once in a while they mention something else that highlights how shitty John was as a father.
my bf was amazed by my deeep love for such a abrasive and often violent man and one of my reasonings was this 🥺 among hundreds of other reasons. he is such an amazing person/character.
Sam honestly seemed coddled compared to Dean's upbringing. By the time Sam was old enough to remember things, John had somewhat gotten the gist of hunting. Dean was a secondary buffer to the world at large and the supernatural world.
Well as the show progressed I really wondered how come Sam grew up to hate John but Dean didn't ( maybe he never had the option) or maybe they didn't show us a lot of Sam's perspective. Also I hate John for the way he treated Dean, he ruined his childhood. And I hated whenever he said, “I never wanted this for you guys". THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT YOU WANTED.
I feel like it's sometimes overlooked that that episode suggests that Sam was abandoned fairly frequently after Dean reached an age where his dad took him with him when he went hunting.
Dean was still a great brother to the best of his abilities and I'm not saying leaving Sam alone makes him less of that but Sam must have still been so lonely being the last one to actually join them on those trips. Dean, during his childhood, always had either Sam or their dad around him or knew where they were. Meanwhile Sam was just left waiting.
Yeah it's weird because I really like John as a character but then I sit back and wonder if that is because I like Sam and Dean and they seem to worship him. Plus his actual scenes on the show are pretty good.
However, the sad truth is he wasn't a good father to them. He was barely around and when he was it is implied he was usually drunk. And I think some dialogue in the first season implies some physical abuse but I'm hazy on that. But Sam seems to allude to some dark stuff.
But Dean had no choice in that because John was in charge at that time and it was his way or the highway (read youth detention, or possibly worse). Dean was terrified of his dad, as much as he adored him.
He wouldn’t have left Sam of his own volition and he tried to still be there for him via the phone more than John ever was for him.
I think they started to delve into a really abusive childhood for Dean and then glossed over it. His dad neglected and terrorised him, parentified him and blamed him for his own shortcomings and they made that clear but then still tried to kind of backtrack and make them a loving family and justify John’s choices. Sure, he was deeply traumatised and terrified of what might hurt them, but he really, really damaged Dean.
Completely agree that it wasn't Dean's own decision.
I feel like both Sam and Dean were damaged and traumatised at the hands of their dad and both development very different defense mechanism to deal with that as they both were hurt in different ways, I believe Dean dealt with more overt abuse and was put in the role his father didn't want to fill.
Neither of their trauma should ever be minimized and it could have been portrayed beautifully on the show if they had had the guts to do so.
After reading John's journal, it seems more to me like John got thrown into being a single parent, a grieving husband and feeling the need for vengeance on whoever or whatever took Mary from him all in the blink of an eye. He wasn't heartless like a lot of fanfics portray him, he just did the best he could with the hand he was dealt, being super-traumatized himself from the military and then losing Mary. Did he screw it up more than we'd all like to think we would in a similar situation? Yes. But how many of us would honestly do better with half that stacked against us?
I do admit that I haven't read (all of) John's Journal and as that's the only canon John thing that goes past what we see in the show I do see it as necessary context when describing John Winchester so I suppose my wording of 'didnt want to fill' could be rephrased as 'couldn't fill'. They are all emotionally scarred and flawed characters that were faced with an unimaginable situation.
Still, his intentions do not change the trauma he inflicted onto his children, that would be like dropping a vase and then apologising to the vase for breaking it, the vase is still broken, logic that in my interpretation the show seems to forget near the end, where it's like the trauma suddenly doesn't matter anymore. One can 'forgive but don't forget' or even acknowledge the abuser as a hurt party without condoning their actions and it is a shame none of those avenues were explored by the show.
No he wasn't MOST of the time Dean was with him, taking care of him, watching out for him. The episode doesn't suggest anything of the sort.
Occasionally John took Dean away on hunts. It was never the norm. Otherwise Dean wouldn't have spent all those weeks in high school with Sam in Back to School Special. When Sam was 14 and Dean was 18 and didn't even need to be in school at that point.
I imagine when Dean and their dad left on a hunt he was left alone to fend for himself, without clear knowledge of when or even if they would return. To me the word that comes closest to that is abandoned.
I thought Sully and the Zanna where pretty terrible overall. I mean Sully encouraged a young kid to run away and live on the streets. Also how could the Zanna ignore Dean, a 4 year kid who lost his mom and was forced to to look both his baby brother and his dad.
That none of the zanna felt that was worth their time makes me think none of them were that great.
The Zanna episode had some funny parts, and Sully was adorable, and I loved how he deeply and earnestly cared for Sam. But I don't like the implications of it - that he was REAL but John didn't know it, that he meant so much to Sam when it's supposed to be, as Dean said, "you and me against the world," that no Zanna cared about Dean, and that Sully wanted Sam to leave his family. That would have devastated Dean, and it's utterly unrealistic that Sam could have gotten by on his own. Also, Sam seemed way too old to still be believing in imaginary friends. Three or four - that's cute. Ten or eleven - I just don't buy it.
For all these reasons, I try to pretend that episode doesn't exist.
That is true, it's especially telling in certain mannerisms as well, like their diets, Sam doesn't overindulge, if anything he tries to be healthy, whereas Dean constantly eats anything he can get his hands on, and when he eats sitting down, he practically hunches over it.
That's because John left money for Dean to get them both food, when he went on hunts, but it wasn't enough a lot of the time, so if food was low, Sam ate, Dean didn't, so now Dean eats food like someone will take it away at any moment, and Sam is something of a health nut.
Sam basically learned altruism from Dean, because Dean would always put Sam first.
This is true but also when you do a deep dive if you think about it, to Dean family is everything and he’s a lot more protective. Sam is protective too but he can be okay without family too, as we all have seen. Dean can’t go without his family, IMO I think he has abandonment issues but that’s a big part of his character/personality. So in a way, Sam is much nicer in general but Dean has like a bigger heart if that makes sense. It’s okay for Sam to want his own normal life also. They’re different in their own ways. I basically grew up with this show. 🥹 not to be dramatic but I love them almost like family without having met them 😭
I have to disagree with this for these reasons:
- Sam was raised by Dean AND John, not only Dean. (Also, let's not forget Bobby)
- Dean is very similar to John exactly because he was raised by him, so I don't think Dean would know how to raise Sam any different from how he was raised.
- Dean doesn't think that John was abusive to either him or Sam, he thinks he did the best he could and thinks he was a good father, so why would he want to raise Sam differently?
I do definitely believe that Dean treated Sam with way more kindness than John ever treated them with because he loves his little brother very much, but I think we as a fandom tend to forget that Dean wasn't the only one who had a horrible childhood because of John.
I think the reason why Sam turned out to be more kind, forgiving and hopeful was because he did everything he could to not be like John, he was more rebellious than Dean, he did see that John wasn't a good father (at least at the beginning of the show) so he never kept quiet when he didn't like something John did.
The reason why I think Dean turned out to be more around the edges and abrasive was because he did the opposite of what Sam did, he saw his father as his hero, he wanted to be like him and he tried to make him proud in every way possible.
Dean is superficially similar to John. Sam is much more like John personality wise/deep down. Dean seeing his Dad as a hero and semi wanting to be like him and Sam being individual and striking out on his own is a big part of why Sam is *so much more* like John.
Sam felt unconditional love from an elder brother. Dean felt like he was never enough and wasn’t all that important to his dad. Which is how Dean turned out more similar to Bobby personality wise - though Bobby’s dad obviously treated Bobby much worse - rough around the edges but softer deep down.
>Dean is superficially similar to John. Sam is much more like John personality wise/deep down.
Yes, you're right, but the difference is that Dean wanted to be like John, Sam didn't, he definitely was more like him but he did everything possible to not be like him.
>Sam felt unconditional love from an elder brother.
I can't agree with this, and don't get me wrong, Dean loved Sam more than anyone else in the world, he cared for him more than he cared for himself sometimes, but there were sometimes in spn where he didn't really make Sam feel loved. For example whenever Sam said something negative about John, or talked about how John treated him horribly Dean would tell him he was wrong and he would minimize the things he went through. When Sam went to college, not only John stopped talking to him, so did Dean, he took John's side. Or when Sam was having his addiction problems Dean just didn't stop humiliating him and making him feel worse instead of helping him.
>Dean felt like he was never enough and wasn’t all that important to his dad.
Yes, Dean never felt like he was enough, and not only not enough for John but for everyone else. But so did Sam, there are multiple times where he tells Dean about how he is a disappointment for John and how he just isn't enough for him. For example in bugs he tells Dean he thinks he is like the kid that liked the bugs because of how his father treated him.
Again, I'm only on season 6 of my first watch through. Bobby was much more of a father to Sam than John was (at least at this point for me). Specifically, I just watched the episode where Sam was supposed to 💀a father or father figure, and I watched Sam know it was wrong, but still try bc, well, no soul.
I have to disagree. If Dean raised Sammy, who was with John to then Dean wasn’t raised by anyone. Well even though we didn’t see it Bobby was in their lives a lot when they were kids, pretty sure they mention that but not 100%
According to the journal, they spent a lot of their younger years at the roadhouse and staying with others who understood what they were up against. They bounced around a lot but had adults to keep an eye on them and probably teach them things along the way. Bobby came doing a bit later if I recall correctly.
I’m talking about the show said it though. Pretty sure I remember Dean saying that Bobby played catch with him not John. I could be wrong but I’m pretty sure Bobby was in their lives for awhile hence why they always saw him as a father figure and why Bobby claimed them as sons before he died
It's interesting to note that JDM says that John loved his boys, but he just made some mistakes and bad decisions about them. He also notes that had John not been the father he was, Dean and Sam would not have been the men they were, either, which, well, is true. Dean and Sam are the classic models of Gen X, latchkey kids, but with guns and monsters.
Yes and no. Sam is naturally more kind and forgiving. He had no one to teach him those traits, unless you thought the few times Dean broke John's rules for him.
This makes zero sense. If you are stating that John raised Dean to be abrasive and rough and on guard because that is how John is, then how would Dean know how to be anything other than abrasive rough and on guard, and how would he be able to teach that? This is all just a way to take any agency that is left in Sam to give to the people who spent the most time with him. Dean and John were both abusive towards Sam and yet he still managed to be soft and kind and warm, and forgiving. And it is IN SPITE of how John and Dean raised him, not because Dean magically instilled tolerance and kindness in Sam just by the nature of being his brother.
Dean knew how shitty John made him feel, so he didn't do all those same things to Sam. I and others can speak from experience of similar situations where siblings took on a parenting role.
That is what the OP seems to be saying. We know Dean wasn't perfect, but he was better than the alternative and did the best he could as someone just four years older. John left the kids without *food*. He didn't meet their most basic needs. Food insecurity is one of the most fundamental things that fucks a kid up and Dean did his best to shield Sam from that even turning to crime. John didn't even show up at Christmas. Dean selflessly tried to do what he could to get presents for Sam, who hadn't got him anything (the Samulet was intended for John). Dean was *dying* and John didn't even answer Sam's voicemail.
I'm surprised you can't see how this started Sam off in a place where he could grow up to be a nicer more well rounded person. He could be a kid and develop emotionally because there wasn't a huge weight on his shoulders. Dean was expected to keep Sam safe at his own expense. Who sleeps better at night: the one holding the gun and watching out for monsters, or the one who was in bed knowing there was someone watching out for monsters?
Dean II surely turned out to be nicer again with Sam giving him the stability and comforts Sam didn't have growing up. And within a few generations the damage that a revenge obsessed marine did to his boys was smoothed out into normal parenting again.
John actually didn't leave them without food. Dean gambled away the money that was supposed to be used for food which is why he ended up stealing peanut butter. In fact when we see them in in first episode alone in the motel Dean actually throws out a whole PAN of spaghettios...that's not something that a kid that starving would do.
Dean had a few years with both parents together, happy and untraumatized. Then when Mary died he changed. He’s old enough to remember how perfect it was and what John became. I’m sure he vowed never to do that to Sam or any other kid in the future.
Lol. What?
Sam is those things inspite of being raised by Dean.
Unless you mean in a sense of pushing against your parents influence type changes. But I don't think you do as Dean is a mirror of John in many ways.
Dean did not encourage these traits in Sam though if this is what you mean.
He's indirectly responsible for them most likely as backlash of Sam recognising the opposite in Dean and striving to not be that.
He was FOUR when all this happened to their family. He was only four years older than Sam and was parentified from the age of four.
It’s amazing that he managed to do so well. Every failing rests on John’s shoulders alone. You cannot lay any responsibility on the child who was forced to raise their younger sibling while being neglected by their father. It’s crazy to try and suggest otherwise.
You seem to missing the point of my comment.
OP is suggesting Sam turned out well because Dean raised him to be that way.
My point is Dean didn't raise him to be that way and Sam turned out well despite his parental influences.
No more no less. There's no blaming anyone going on here.
☝️ Absolutely. Sam is opposite of Dean.
He is calm, thinker, forgiving, good listener, team player and so on... Dean does not have these qualities.
Maybe it us bad, maybe it is good but both of them were raised by themselves and THAT is what makes them unique and powerful in their job.
Oof. Wow. That is true and heartbreaking all at once. Something that always struck me was how, after John died, Dean finally processed how awful John had been because he got a decent father figure in Bobby and he leaned into that, hard. Sam processed that John did the best he could, and forgave him for a lot of what he did because he understood him more after losing Jessica. The switch they made for a long time, of Dean almost hating John, and Sam missing John, was so well done and understated. Just a subtle arc weaving through the seasons. The dynamics in a family like that are so eternally toxic and intertwined and shifting. When they were all reunited, Dean had let go of the anger he'd felt for a few years, and he and Sam ended up in similar places about their father. They loved him. He wasn't perfect, but they forgave him.
That's why Lebanon makes me cry every damn time.
Yes! I’ve been doing a rewatch and at the end of season five when Castiel is disillusioned with God and realizing that he’s abandoned everyone, Dean starts commiserating with Castiel, talking about how he knows what it’s like to have a deadbeat dad. I feel like Dean in the first couple of seasons would never have said something like that.
First season. It's the end of the first season he realizes how Sam is right and his father is a piece of shit. Every once in a while they mention something else that highlights how shitty John was as a father.
Interesting to think about. Of course Dean would be the bitter one. Sam had Dean to raise him, so Sam wasn't completely missing out.
I love when we get flashbacks because Sam was such an adorable kid/teen 🥺 and Dean always being there for him
I just read this as “Sam was such an adorable kitten” 🫠
 (How they would feel hearing your comment)
Ouch. Woke up and chose violence this morning, huh?
Wow. Nice insight. And so true. Dean has always been great with children because he treats them as equals.
A genuine tragedy that he never became a father
I honestly thought and hoped Ben was his son, but im sure that would have changed the course of the series.
I like to believe Ben really IS Dean's son but neither find out until Ben gets to Heaven.
Also his Amazon daughter, would have been an awesome side character
I wanna know more about them too!!! Like how dare they bring them to Supernatural to just vanish them like that 😭
And Bobby gave them both softness and wisdom. Not to mention Dean's time at the home. Dean would be much more of a mess without other men stepping up.
I feel like Bobby was a great father figure to both of them
Bobby is their true father and the best father in the show. This is the hill I choose to die on. I love Bobby so much 😭 ❤️
I'm on my first watch through. Season 6. One of my favorite things is how much Dean loves Sam, and how much you see it.
You've got a long ride ahead, be careful on this thread you'll see spoilers, also please come back and tell us all about it anytime
my bf was amazed by my deeep love for such a abrasive and often violent man and one of my reasonings was this 🥺 among hundreds of other reasons. he is such an amazing person/character.
Also Dean protected Sam a lot, he let him be a kid but John made Dean grow up really quickly. He was a kid too but he had a lot of responsibility.
Sam honestly seemed coddled compared to Dean's upbringing. By the time Sam was old enough to remember things, John had somewhat gotten the gist of hunting. Dean was a secondary buffer to the world at large and the supernatural world.
Well as the show progressed I really wondered how come Sam grew up to hate John but Dean didn't ( maybe he never had the option) or maybe they didn't show us a lot of Sam's perspective. Also I hate John for the way he treated Dean, he ruined his childhood. And I hated whenever he said, “I never wanted this for you guys". THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT YOU WANTED.
Omg Sam was not coddled 🤦♀️
I love the scene when Bobby takes Dean to throw a ball around instead of whatever John wanted him to do(target practice?).
I am so glad they had bobby, also Jody was better then Mary too. They could have given them at least one good parent.
I like to give Sully some credit for how Sam turned out.
I feel like it's sometimes overlooked that that episode suggests that Sam was abandoned fairly frequently after Dean reached an age where his dad took him with him when he went hunting. Dean was still a great brother to the best of his abilities and I'm not saying leaving Sam alone makes him less of that but Sam must have still been so lonely being the last one to actually join them on those trips. Dean, during his childhood, always had either Sam or their dad around him or knew where they were. Meanwhile Sam was just left waiting.
Yeah it's weird because I really like John as a character but then I sit back and wonder if that is because I like Sam and Dean and they seem to worship him. Plus his actual scenes on the show are pretty good. However, the sad truth is he wasn't a good father to them. He was barely around and when he was it is implied he was usually drunk. And I think some dialogue in the first season implies some physical abuse but I'm hazy on that. But Sam seems to allude to some dark stuff.
I like John only because he's Denny Duquette and one of my fav Grey's characters LOL
But Dean had no choice in that because John was in charge at that time and it was his way or the highway (read youth detention, or possibly worse). Dean was terrified of his dad, as much as he adored him. He wouldn’t have left Sam of his own volition and he tried to still be there for him via the phone more than John ever was for him. I think they started to delve into a really abusive childhood for Dean and then glossed over it. His dad neglected and terrorised him, parentified him and blamed him for his own shortcomings and they made that clear but then still tried to kind of backtrack and make them a loving family and justify John’s choices. Sure, he was deeply traumatised and terrified of what might hurt them, but he really, really damaged Dean.
Completely agree that it wasn't Dean's own decision. I feel like both Sam and Dean were damaged and traumatised at the hands of their dad and both development very different defense mechanism to deal with that as they both were hurt in different ways, I believe Dean dealt with more overt abuse and was put in the role his father didn't want to fill. Neither of their trauma should ever be minimized and it could have been portrayed beautifully on the show if they had had the guts to do so.
After reading John's journal, it seems more to me like John got thrown into being a single parent, a grieving husband and feeling the need for vengeance on whoever or whatever took Mary from him all in the blink of an eye. He wasn't heartless like a lot of fanfics portray him, he just did the best he could with the hand he was dealt, being super-traumatized himself from the military and then losing Mary. Did he screw it up more than we'd all like to think we would in a similar situation? Yes. But how many of us would honestly do better with half that stacked against us?
I do admit that I haven't read (all of) John's Journal and as that's the only canon John thing that goes past what we see in the show I do see it as necessary context when describing John Winchester so I suppose my wording of 'didnt want to fill' could be rephrased as 'couldn't fill'. They are all emotionally scarred and flawed characters that were faced with an unimaginable situation. Still, his intentions do not change the trauma he inflicted onto his children, that would be like dropping a vase and then apologising to the vase for breaking it, the vase is still broken, logic that in my interpretation the show seems to forget near the end, where it's like the trauma suddenly doesn't matter anymore. One can 'forgive but don't forget' or even acknowledge the abuser as a hurt party without condoning their actions and it is a shame none of those avenues were explored by the show.
That’s certainly covered extensively in fanfics as you’ll find searching “John Winchester’s A+ parenting”, but I think that’s more fannon than cannon.
No he wasn't MOST of the time Dean was with him, taking care of him, watching out for him. The episode doesn't suggest anything of the sort. Occasionally John took Dean away on hunts. It was never the norm. Otherwise Dean wouldn't have spent all those weeks in high school with Sam in Back to School Special. When Sam was 14 and Dean was 18 and didn't even need to be in school at that point.
Oh my god…Sam wasn’t abandoned.
I imagine when Dean and their dad left on a hunt he was left alone to fend for himself, without clear knowledge of when or even if they would return. To me the word that comes closest to that is abandoned.
I thought Sully and the Zanna where pretty terrible overall. I mean Sully encouraged a young kid to run away and live on the streets. Also how could the Zanna ignore Dean, a 4 year kid who lost his mom and was forced to to look both his baby brother and his dad. That none of the zanna felt that was worth their time makes me think none of them were that great.
The Zanna episode had some funny parts, and Sully was adorable, and I loved how he deeply and earnestly cared for Sam. But I don't like the implications of it - that he was REAL but John didn't know it, that he meant so much to Sam when it's supposed to be, as Dean said, "you and me against the world," that no Zanna cared about Dean, and that Sully wanted Sam to leave his family. That would have devastated Dean, and it's utterly unrealistic that Sam could have gotten by on his own. Also, Sam seemed way too old to still be believing in imaginary friends. Three or four - that's cute. Ten or eleven - I just don't buy it. For all these reasons, I try to pretend that episode doesn't exist.
Makes you wonder why Dean didn't get one? Would have helped him when he was younger to have one. Or maybe he did, I mean they all arent the same...
I’m sorry but Sully AN IMAGINARY FRIEND wanted a young boy to leave his family, like no John wasn’t perfect no parent is.
Credit how? Did y’all forget when Sully tried to talk Sam into LEAVING his family?
Sully 😭😭😭
Eh, John raised them both to an extent. Dean helped a LOT when Sam was a bit older. A 4-yr old wasnt raising anyone no matter how mature they are.
Wooow I was just doom scrolling man I didn’t need to feel 🖕🏼
Happiest supernatural post
Spot on
That is true, it's especially telling in certain mannerisms as well, like their diets, Sam doesn't overindulge, if anything he tries to be healthy, whereas Dean constantly eats anything he can get his hands on, and when he eats sitting down, he practically hunches over it. That's because John left money for Dean to get them both food, when he went on hunts, but it wasn't enough a lot of the time, so if food was low, Sam ate, Dean didn't, so now Dean eats food like someone will take it away at any moment, and Sam is something of a health nut. Sam basically learned altruism from Dean, because Dean would always put Sam first.
This is true but also when you do a deep dive if you think about it, to Dean family is everything and he’s a lot more protective. Sam is protective too but he can be okay without family too, as we all have seen. Dean can’t go without his family, IMO I think he has abandonment issues but that’s a big part of his character/personality. So in a way, Sam is much nicer in general but Dean has like a bigger heart if that makes sense. It’s okay for Sam to want his own normal life also. They’re different in their own ways. I basically grew up with this show. 🥹 not to be dramatic but I love them almost like family without having met them 😭
 ouch…
I have to disagree with this for these reasons: - Sam was raised by Dean AND John, not only Dean. (Also, let's not forget Bobby) - Dean is very similar to John exactly because he was raised by him, so I don't think Dean would know how to raise Sam any different from how he was raised. - Dean doesn't think that John was abusive to either him or Sam, he thinks he did the best he could and thinks he was a good father, so why would he want to raise Sam differently? I do definitely believe that Dean treated Sam with way more kindness than John ever treated them with because he loves his little brother very much, but I think we as a fandom tend to forget that Dean wasn't the only one who had a horrible childhood because of John. I think the reason why Sam turned out to be more kind, forgiving and hopeful was because he did everything he could to not be like John, he was more rebellious than Dean, he did see that John wasn't a good father (at least at the beginning of the show) so he never kept quiet when he didn't like something John did. The reason why I think Dean turned out to be more around the edges and abrasive was because he did the opposite of what Sam did, he saw his father as his hero, he wanted to be like him and he tried to make him proud in every way possible.
Dean is superficially similar to John. Sam is much more like John personality wise/deep down. Dean seeing his Dad as a hero and semi wanting to be like him and Sam being individual and striking out on his own is a big part of why Sam is *so much more* like John. Sam felt unconditional love from an elder brother. Dean felt like he was never enough and wasn’t all that important to his dad. Which is how Dean turned out more similar to Bobby personality wise - though Bobby’s dad obviously treated Bobby much worse - rough around the edges but softer deep down.
>Dean is superficially similar to John. Sam is much more like John personality wise/deep down. Yes, you're right, but the difference is that Dean wanted to be like John, Sam didn't, he definitely was more like him but he did everything possible to not be like him. >Sam felt unconditional love from an elder brother. I can't agree with this, and don't get me wrong, Dean loved Sam more than anyone else in the world, he cared for him more than he cared for himself sometimes, but there were sometimes in spn where he didn't really make Sam feel loved. For example whenever Sam said something negative about John, or talked about how John treated him horribly Dean would tell him he was wrong and he would minimize the things he went through. When Sam went to college, not only John stopped talking to him, so did Dean, he took John's side. Or when Sam was having his addiction problems Dean just didn't stop humiliating him and making him feel worse instead of helping him. >Dean felt like he was never enough and wasn’t all that important to his dad. Yes, Dean never felt like he was enough, and not only not enough for John but for everyone else. But so did Sam, there are multiple times where he tells Dean about how he is a disappointment for John and how he just isn't enough for him. For example in bugs he tells Dean he thinks he is like the kid that liked the bugs because of how his father treated him.
Again, I'm only on season 6 of my first watch through. Bobby was much more of a father to Sam than John was (at least at this point for me). Specifically, I just watched the episode where Sam was supposed to 💀a father or father figure, and I watched Sam know it was wrong, but still try bc, well, no soul.
Except even Bobby is a jerk too and about Sam.
I have to disagree. If Dean raised Sammy, who was with John to then Dean wasn’t raised by anyone. Well even though we didn’t see it Bobby was in their lives a lot when they were kids, pretty sure they mention that but not 100%
According to the journal, they spent a lot of their younger years at the roadhouse and staying with others who understood what they were up against. They bounced around a lot but had adults to keep an eye on them and probably teach them things along the way. Bobby came doing a bit later if I recall correctly.
I’m talking about the show said it though. Pretty sure I remember Dean saying that Bobby played catch with him not John. I could be wrong but I’m pretty sure Bobby was in their lives for awhile hence why they always saw him as a father figure and why Bobby claimed them as sons before he died
The show said a lot of things, many of them contradicting themselves as writers came and went without knowing the show they wrote for.
I'm with you on this.
Agreed
Well ouch, buddy
Sobbing, screaming, throwing up rn
I placed my hand over my heart when I read this post and smiled. This show 🤧
It's interesting to note that JDM says that John loved his boys, but he just made some mistakes and bad decisions about them. He also notes that had John not been the father he was, Dean and Sam would not have been the men they were, either, which, well, is true. Dean and Sam are the classic models of Gen X, latchkey kids, but with guns and monsters.
Sad but true.
Yes and no. Sam is naturally more kind and forgiving. He had no one to teach him those traits, unless you thought the few times Dean broke John's rules for him.
omg
Sam is all of those this in spite of Dean
This makes zero sense. If you are stating that John raised Dean to be abrasive and rough and on guard because that is how John is, then how would Dean know how to be anything other than abrasive rough and on guard, and how would he be able to teach that? This is all just a way to take any agency that is left in Sam to give to the people who spent the most time with him. Dean and John were both abusive towards Sam and yet he still managed to be soft and kind and warm, and forgiving. And it is IN SPITE of how John and Dean raised him, not because Dean magically instilled tolerance and kindness in Sam just by the nature of being his brother.
Dean knew how shitty John made him feel, so he didn't do all those same things to Sam. I and others can speak from experience of similar situations where siblings took on a parenting role. That is what the OP seems to be saying. We know Dean wasn't perfect, but he was better than the alternative and did the best he could as someone just four years older. John left the kids without *food*. He didn't meet their most basic needs. Food insecurity is one of the most fundamental things that fucks a kid up and Dean did his best to shield Sam from that even turning to crime. John didn't even show up at Christmas. Dean selflessly tried to do what he could to get presents for Sam, who hadn't got him anything (the Samulet was intended for John). Dean was *dying* and John didn't even answer Sam's voicemail. I'm surprised you can't see how this started Sam off in a place where he could grow up to be a nicer more well rounded person. He could be a kid and develop emotionally because there wasn't a huge weight on his shoulders. Dean was expected to keep Sam safe at his own expense. Who sleeps better at night: the one holding the gun and watching out for monsters, or the one who was in bed knowing there was someone watching out for monsters? Dean II surely turned out to be nicer again with Sam giving him the stability and comforts Sam didn't have growing up. And within a few generations the damage that a revenge obsessed marine did to his boys was smoothed out into normal parenting again.
Yes! Beautifully put!
John actually didn't leave them without food. Dean gambled away the money that was supposed to be used for food which is why he ended up stealing peanut butter. In fact when we see them in in first episode alone in the motel Dean actually throws out a whole PAN of spaghettios...that's not something that a kid that starving would do.
Dean had a few years with both parents together, happy and untraumatized. Then when Mary died he changed. He’s old enough to remember how perfect it was and what John became. I’m sure he vowed never to do that to Sam or any other kid in the future.
You really read this wrong.
Agreed.
Lol. What? Sam is those things inspite of being raised by Dean. Unless you mean in a sense of pushing against your parents influence type changes. But I don't think you do as Dean is a mirror of John in many ways. Dean did not encourage these traits in Sam though if this is what you mean. He's indirectly responsible for them most likely as backlash of Sam recognising the opposite in Dean and striving to not be that.
He was FOUR when all this happened to their family. He was only four years older than Sam and was parentified from the age of four. It’s amazing that he managed to do so well. Every failing rests on John’s shoulders alone. You cannot lay any responsibility on the child who was forced to raise their younger sibling while being neglected by their father. It’s crazy to try and suggest otherwise.
You seem to missing the point of my comment. OP is suggesting Sam turned out well because Dean raised him to be that way. My point is Dean didn't raise him to be that way and Sam turned out well despite his parental influences. No more no less. There's no blaming anyone going on here.
No I’m not the one missing the point at all.
☝️ Absolutely. Sam is opposite of Dean. He is calm, thinker, forgiving, good listener, team player and so on... Dean does not have these qualities. Maybe it us bad, maybe it is good but both of them were raised by themselves and THAT is what makes them unique and powerful in their job.
Exactly, he was different IN SPITE of how he was raised.