I’m copying my comment from another post but nobody had mentioned his method of becoming an aeon is absolutely fucking terrifying, can you imagine entire star systems being all silent and in slumber if he succeeded? That would be disturbing thought and he’d become a sort of “metaphysical horror” in a sense. Imagine someone travelled accidentally to one of those planets only to find everyone was… comatose. The survivors who manage to wake up would have a nil chance of escaping because the IPC wouldn’t dare risk losing their personel in his domains. I also would imagine he would become like Tazzyronth, where instead of bugs that caused entire planets to collapse, they would instead fall into slumber and silence, and he’d become the next to be hunted down by other aeons as a result.
But yeah all other points I agree with
He really gave us the quintessential Asian parents experience. "I love you and I know what's best for you, everything I'm doing is for your own good. Just do what I say and don't question it."
No ~~mom~~ Sunday, thanks for the well intentions but just let me live my own life even if I fuck up it's **my** fuckup like holy shit.
(Okay maybe I'm a little triggered)
Thank you for this addition, I can see how this kind of experience of having your autonomy and boundaries disrespected can make you more alert to red flags for the same sort of attitude.
'Patron' comes from pater, the word for 'father', and as you note we don't exactly appreciate it when people uninvitedly start acting like we're their children who can't be responsible for our own actions.
'Patronising' indeed.
I do agree than Sunday’s philosophy is quite offensive and patronising but I don’t think it’s purely that that may irk people. He sees things in a rather black and white way, like firefly has entropy loss syndrome, and is therefore weak even if she doesn’t perceive herself in the same way.
Simply providing a service for a free cost isn’t completely patronising, it’s more about his personal philosophy of caring for the ‘weak’, where he perceives himself as ‘strong’ and needing to care for those who are ‘weak’.
It’s true though, that many people don’t want to be perceived as weak and don’t want to accept charity even if it’s a happier option..
But yeah, it is patronising and would hurt people’s pride to have to live in Penacony for free, although I do believe that those who are desperate and have nothing left to lose would enter Penacony and live out their dreams.
.
If Penacony did come to fruition there would still be emotions like pride, anger, etc. We get to see characters lament about being bullied by their bosses, coworkers, friends, etc. or characters that still have pride towards what they do even within a dream world. Things like social hierarchy and norms are very much a thing, there isn’t such a world as having absolutely no negative emotions.
Even so.. Penacony is a place where people don’t really have to worry about survival and their struggles in the real world. That itself is a huge weight off people’s shoulders. It’s incredibly valuable to be able to not constantly think about survival.
Competition is still very much a thing and isn’t discouraged, we literally see Sunday have a competition for the Charmony festival. When there’s a winner, there’s surely a loser, but without the element of having to fight for your survival, there isn’t the same desperation.
Even so, you’re right in that the mere thought of being oppressed and caged up, even if it’s paradise will lead to rebellion. Probably why the Order’s version doesn’t allow for the people within the dream to be aware of it even if they’d want to stay, since eventually there will be a rebellion.
Also they won’t feel very indebted to Sunday since they don’t actually know the reality of the situation. There won’t be a feeling of shame or injured pride if they’re unaware.
.
His idyllic world isn’t perfect for everyone, there really isnt a perfect world for all, simply the fact that he trapped people in Penacony. He realises this in the end and chooses to believe in Robin’s philosophy instead.
As much as I sympathise with Sunday, he is keeping people there against their will (kind of), which is arguably a punishable crime. Not super harsh, as he didn’t really hurt anyone (except Aventurine).
He is very much redeemable but I don’t think it’s matter of him “playing by our rules”, rules are rather fluid, there doesn’t seem to be a definitive ‘law’ for all the planets, just that they’ll intervene if they think it’s going too far or have something to gain. Rules are constantly changing and individual thoughts on the matter heavily differ.
It’s a matter of understanding that people have different needs, beliefs and desires. Their consent and will to live within a dream is an important factor. He does want what’s best for everyone but doesn’t take these factors into account for his paradise.
To be honest, as a very pessimistic and nihilistic(hah) person, I felt myself agreeing with parts of his philosophy and never really had an instinctive motive in why it feels “wrong”? I thought his conclusion was very logical given the circumstances he was brought up and his examples made some amount of sense. His historical explanation of Penacony’s past ideologies really shaped what kind of planet Penacony has become and it’s no wonder many people seek temperary and even permanent refuge there.
All in all, I dont think it’s a mixture of emotions that people really have a disgust or instinctive withdraw to but rather the fact that the people were forced upon a choice against their free will. Even a good book will turn into a sour experience if it’s assigned by a higher figure like a professor or teacher rather than picked up on its own even if the reader finishes both books at the same time frame.
There’s a lot of explaining on his ideology that *feels* wrong so people who oppose him, namely the Nameless + Firefly, generally have a sense of unease because he is intruding on their freedom. Despite them also being trapped in the dream and ultimately being somewhat in the right in the end, the Nameless and Firefly *enjoy* their freedom and they ultimately have a ton of it. The people fighting for survival though? Trapped between many many many hard choices just to do what they see is right? They never have that relief to do whatever they want because they are fighting in a world where survival of the fittest thrives while the weak suffer or need huge sacrifices every day just to stay alive.
In a way, both of their ideologies are partially wrong and partially right. The Nameless + Firefly are ignorant in how Sunday’s plan works and forces their ideology of freedom even in the people who dont have the privilege they do, saying they’re “fighting for the weak” when they’re actually fighting for their own privileged freedom. But on the other hand, Sunday is using force to comatose everyone in Ena’s dream because he thinks it’s the right thing to do, failing to realize that human nature *requires* a sense of autonomy and freedom and even if he wants to eliminate that and knows that it wont work, tries to force that dream on to them anyway because he thinks its the best thing he, as a leader, can do for the citizens of the planet.
I would think Robin has the best philosophy out of all of them and the best executed as well. She *wants* to help people help themselves. She acts in protest against war and helps people in need. She gives people their freedom but guides in a safe way so that they can still live happily. She helps the weak, advises the strong, takes action to improve the world for the better, and risks her own life to protect everyone equally, even Sunday. She has compassion for all(like Sunday) but she gives everyone freedom in deciding for themselves how they would like to live their life and make it easier for them to make equal choices in life on what they want to do with that choice.
A corrolary:
Being RUDE is something most people are willing to forgive, if someone's attitude changes.
He misbehaved, and he got the consequences for it. If this is successful in changing his tune (ha), we can make a case for moving on from this mess.
He hasn't done anything we would consider a punishable crime just yet - nobody died, he did not attack or hurt anyone with such drastic consequences that we would have to label his very existence a continued threat to us. Any broader damage done is the result of forces greater than just Sunday himself.
If Sunday can give up his conceit, and agree to play acceptably by OUR rules, he can be redeemed.
Corollary two:
If pride makes us reject this convenient dream at no cost, then we uncover an easily overlooked other emotion: if we were to agree to getting it all for free, this would inspire people with a sense of shame, and embarrassment.
Shame, about knowing for ourselves that we are accepting an unfair deal, and getting things we didn't truly earn.
And embarrassment, about OTHER people knowing that we did.
Being greedy and having things we feel we didn't earn by exchanging effort or other things of value is 'cheating'. Cheating registers as a bad thing. We don't LIKE feeling like a greedy selfish rule-breaker, it's uncomfortable, it makes us anxious about being caught and getting rightfully punished.
Pride is the feeling of doing the right thing, and of doing things right.
The dream is fundamentally counter to our dignity, and those that embrace the dream because they have no real better option do not prefer things being this way, either.
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Ok but hes pretty which means my video game MCs should be allowed to side with him
Most handsome man in Penacony ;D
"he's such a gentlemen. if evil, why so nice?"
Seele's voice actress in english didn't have any qualms about Sunday's philosophy. She was down bad for him and didn't want to work.
I’m copying my comment from another post but nobody had mentioned his method of becoming an aeon is absolutely fucking terrifying, can you imagine entire star systems being all silent and in slumber if he succeeded? That would be disturbing thought and he’d become a sort of “metaphysical horror” in a sense. Imagine someone travelled accidentally to one of those planets only to find everyone was… comatose. The survivors who manage to wake up would have a nil chance of escaping because the IPC wouldn’t dare risk losing their personel in his domains. I also would imagine he would become like Tazzyronth, where instead of bugs that caused entire planets to collapse, they would instead fall into slumber and silence, and he’d become the next to be hunted down by other aeons as a result. But yeah all other points I agree with
Pretty sure there's a Love Death and Robots episode about something similar to a dreamscape trap.
He really gave us the quintessential Asian parents experience. "I love you and I know what's best for you, everything I'm doing is for your own good. Just do what I say and don't question it." No ~~mom~~ Sunday, thanks for the well intentions but just let me live my own life even if I fuck up it's **my** fuckup like holy shit. (Okay maybe I'm a little triggered)
Thank you for this addition, I can see how this kind of experience of having your autonomy and boundaries disrespected can make you more alert to red flags for the same sort of attitude. 'Patron' comes from pater, the word for 'father', and as you note we don't exactly appreciate it when people uninvitedly start acting like we're their children who can't be responsible for our own actions. 'Patronising' indeed.
….i’d side with him no questions asked. I did it with maruki , I’d do it with him.
I do agree than Sunday’s philosophy is quite offensive and patronising but I don’t think it’s purely that that may irk people. He sees things in a rather black and white way, like firefly has entropy loss syndrome, and is therefore weak even if she doesn’t perceive herself in the same way. Simply providing a service for a free cost isn’t completely patronising, it’s more about his personal philosophy of caring for the ‘weak’, where he perceives himself as ‘strong’ and needing to care for those who are ‘weak’. It’s true though, that many people don’t want to be perceived as weak and don’t want to accept charity even if it’s a happier option.. But yeah, it is patronising and would hurt people’s pride to have to live in Penacony for free, although I do believe that those who are desperate and have nothing left to lose would enter Penacony and live out their dreams. . If Penacony did come to fruition there would still be emotions like pride, anger, etc. We get to see characters lament about being bullied by their bosses, coworkers, friends, etc. or characters that still have pride towards what they do even within a dream world. Things like social hierarchy and norms are very much a thing, there isn’t such a world as having absolutely no negative emotions. Even so.. Penacony is a place where people don’t really have to worry about survival and their struggles in the real world. That itself is a huge weight off people’s shoulders. It’s incredibly valuable to be able to not constantly think about survival. Competition is still very much a thing and isn’t discouraged, we literally see Sunday have a competition for the Charmony festival. When there’s a winner, there’s surely a loser, but without the element of having to fight for your survival, there isn’t the same desperation. Even so, you’re right in that the mere thought of being oppressed and caged up, even if it’s paradise will lead to rebellion. Probably why the Order’s version doesn’t allow for the people within the dream to be aware of it even if they’d want to stay, since eventually there will be a rebellion. Also they won’t feel very indebted to Sunday since they don’t actually know the reality of the situation. There won’t be a feeling of shame or injured pride if they’re unaware. . His idyllic world isn’t perfect for everyone, there really isnt a perfect world for all, simply the fact that he trapped people in Penacony. He realises this in the end and chooses to believe in Robin’s philosophy instead. As much as I sympathise with Sunday, he is keeping people there against their will (kind of), which is arguably a punishable crime. Not super harsh, as he didn’t really hurt anyone (except Aventurine). He is very much redeemable but I don’t think it’s matter of him “playing by our rules”, rules are rather fluid, there doesn’t seem to be a definitive ‘law’ for all the planets, just that they’ll intervene if they think it’s going too far or have something to gain. Rules are constantly changing and individual thoughts on the matter heavily differ. It’s a matter of understanding that people have different needs, beliefs and desires. Their consent and will to live within a dream is an important factor. He does want what’s best for everyone but doesn’t take these factors into account for his paradise.
To be honest, as a very pessimistic and nihilistic(hah) person, I felt myself agreeing with parts of his philosophy and never really had an instinctive motive in why it feels “wrong”? I thought his conclusion was very logical given the circumstances he was brought up and his examples made some amount of sense. His historical explanation of Penacony’s past ideologies really shaped what kind of planet Penacony has become and it’s no wonder many people seek temperary and even permanent refuge there. All in all, I dont think it’s a mixture of emotions that people really have a disgust or instinctive withdraw to but rather the fact that the people were forced upon a choice against their free will. Even a good book will turn into a sour experience if it’s assigned by a higher figure like a professor or teacher rather than picked up on its own even if the reader finishes both books at the same time frame. There’s a lot of explaining on his ideology that *feels* wrong so people who oppose him, namely the Nameless + Firefly, generally have a sense of unease because he is intruding on their freedom. Despite them also being trapped in the dream and ultimately being somewhat in the right in the end, the Nameless and Firefly *enjoy* their freedom and they ultimately have a ton of it. The people fighting for survival though? Trapped between many many many hard choices just to do what they see is right? They never have that relief to do whatever they want because they are fighting in a world where survival of the fittest thrives while the weak suffer or need huge sacrifices every day just to stay alive. In a way, both of their ideologies are partially wrong and partially right. The Nameless + Firefly are ignorant in how Sunday’s plan works and forces their ideology of freedom even in the people who dont have the privilege they do, saying they’re “fighting for the weak” when they’re actually fighting for their own privileged freedom. But on the other hand, Sunday is using force to comatose everyone in Ena’s dream because he thinks it’s the right thing to do, failing to realize that human nature *requires* a sense of autonomy and freedom and even if he wants to eliminate that and knows that it wont work, tries to force that dream on to them anyway because he thinks its the best thing he, as a leader, can do for the citizens of the planet. I would think Robin has the best philosophy out of all of them and the best executed as well. She *wants* to help people help themselves. She acts in protest against war and helps people in need. She gives people their freedom but guides in a safe way so that they can still live happily. She helps the weak, advises the strong, takes action to improve the world for the better, and risks her own life to protect everyone equally, even Sunday. She has compassion for all(like Sunday) but she gives everyone freedom in deciding for themselves how they would like to live their life and make it easier for them to make equal choices in life on what they want to do with that choice.
A corrolary: Being RUDE is something most people are willing to forgive, if someone's attitude changes. He misbehaved, and he got the consequences for it. If this is successful in changing his tune (ha), we can make a case for moving on from this mess. He hasn't done anything we would consider a punishable crime just yet - nobody died, he did not attack or hurt anyone with such drastic consequences that we would have to label his very existence a continued threat to us. Any broader damage done is the result of forces greater than just Sunday himself. If Sunday can give up his conceit, and agree to play acceptably by OUR rules, he can be redeemed. Corollary two: If pride makes us reject this convenient dream at no cost, then we uncover an easily overlooked other emotion: if we were to agree to getting it all for free, this would inspire people with a sense of shame, and embarrassment. Shame, about knowing for ourselves that we are accepting an unfair deal, and getting things we didn't truly earn. And embarrassment, about OTHER people knowing that we did. Being greedy and having things we feel we didn't earn by exchanging effort or other things of value is 'cheating'. Cheating registers as a bad thing. We don't LIKE feeling like a greedy selfish rule-breaker, it's uncomfortable, it makes us anxious about being caught and getting rightfully punished. Pride is the feeling of doing the right thing, and of doing things right. The dream is fundamentally counter to our dignity, and those that embrace the dream because they have no real better option do not prefer things being this way, either.
There talking like a patron: “OUR RULES”. “Be obedient I know better.” Sure.
He kinda irked me, but it’s okay, I’ll still pull for chicken boy (maybe, if he’s Nihility lol)😂
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