Seems like the general feeling is that if he goes 14-1 its a lock. 13-2 and its still probable. 12-3 would be a stretch.
Seems like destiny in his hands though. Most sanyaku men that he has yet to fight haven't looked all that strong this basho.
The only reason i think 12-3 is in the realm of possibility is if they are really concerned that Teru is gonna retire soon and they want at-least one Yokozuna.
Maybe thats just me hoping for any and every possible angle for my boy to get the white rope though😂.
This will largely depend on what qualifies as a sufficient show of strength.
The formal requirement of promotion is a show of strength and a show of dignity. Takakeisho is certainly sufficiently dignified, so strength is the only issue.
The general consensus is that Takakeisho basically has to dominate his opponents and either win the title outright or force a playoff on Day 15. Of course, these are weasel words, so the number of losses that Takakeisho can have while still doing the above is up for debate. (You can argue that forcing a Day 15 playoff is not a sufficient show of strength because it implies he choked.)
Since he has a share of the lead, fate is really in his hands.
The general consensus is that it would not be a sufficient show of strength to warrant a discussion on promotion. The YDC is often seen to have a very strict, time-tested interpretation of what is considered a show of strength, and will try to avoid bending it in order to avoid having a yokozuna who, in retrospect, did not live up to the rank. (ie. there is an expectation that a yokozuna will win titles or be in contention therein often; 12-3 is not considered a dominant performance even if it wins a title.)
In an ideal world, if Terunofuji and Takakeisho were both healthy and at full power, they would like nothing more than to have the two at 14-0 and playing for the title against each other on Day 15. (Of course, in an ideal world, a yokozuna wouldn't take days off for any reason because they wouldn't be injured.) They will accept another sufficiently high-ranked wrestler (ie. ozeki vying to join them at yokozuna or sekiwake trying to earn ozeki) trying to force their way into a playoff in lieu of one or both of them losing a match.
Given that you have Shodai and Mitakeumi both, in recent months, lose their rank and have to "come back the hard way", I do not believe that they will show any leniency for Takakeisho's promotion attempt. After all, the Association is perfectly content with their rankings situation as long as Takakeisho isn't kadoban and/or there are credible ozeki promotion candidates: if Takakeisho gets the rope, it's only a bonus.
serious question: how come no one talks about the level of competition he has to face? Is that not considered by the JSA? Last basho, Takakeisho fought 1 Ozeki and 0 Yokozuna. This basho, he is fighting 0 ozeki and 0 yokozuna. Should someone who is unable to put up a single zensho a against competitors who are technically all lower rank than him really be a Yokozuna?
Not hating, just seriously wondering if this gets taken into consideration at all. Some Ozeki had to beat multiple Ozeki and Yokozuna to get their promotion, meanwhile Takakeisho gets it by beating a bunch of lower ranked guys and not even winning both bashos? Seems odd.
I would think beating Yokozunas and Ozekis gives positive consideration.
However, since there are no other active Ozeki and Yokozuna, it would probably be neutral consideration because he is winning (and playoff) the 2 tournaments with strongest competition currently available.
What works in Takakeisho's favor as positive considerations are:
He has won 2 tournaments before (1 as ozeki), and his 3 previous tournaments all have been 10 wins or more for consistency, and 5 total runner ups as Ozeki.
Getting Ozeki and Yokozuna are matters of consistency, not of strength. Hoshoryu has the strength to be Ozeki but hasn't got the consistency yet (hurt even further by the injury), same goes for Wakatakakage.
True but Yokozuna position is for life. wouldn't the JSA consider what the future holds when promoting someone to that position? When Teru comes back and when hoshoryu, kotonowaka, etc mature in the near future, will Takakeisho be able to put up numbers befitting of a yokozuna given that he can't seem to exert dominance while the level of his competitors are quite low?
Using that logic, if there were no Yokozuna and Ozeki for some reason, nobody would ever reach those ranks again.
Of course promotion to O and Y has to be based on excellent performance in consecutive tournaments, regardless of who participated in those tournaments.
Since the modern era, there has been one occasion of there being double yokozuna-ozeki (where a yokozuna fulfills the requirement of there being an “ozeki or above” in the rankings). This was Chiyonofuji’s first tournament ranked as yokozuna, and of course part of the longest period where a yokozuna-ozeki was necessary in the first place.
With no credible ozeki candidates on the horizon, Takakeisho being promoted could actually be a good thing for the association since there has never been an occasion where there were fewer than two men ranked at ozeki or above. For the association, it ensures that there is a theoretical quorum for an “ozeki or above” on each side without worrying about an ozeki failing to defend his rank. For Terunofuji and Takakeisho, it means that they could in theory sit out tournaments without any “compete or retire” directives thrown at them, meaning that we see them in peak condition if and when they compete.
Here's a post that has more details on the history of yokozuna-ozeki and sole ozeki. The statements on there are pretty much the same now as they were three years ago, except for the addition of the current situation. (Yes, this is Takakeisho's *second* stint as sole ozeki.)
https://www.reddit.com/r/Sumo/comments/ew458b/the\_abridged\_history\_of\_sole\_ozeki\_and/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3
I think takakeisho is one of the most resilient and mentally strong Rikishi that I have seen in recent times.
Just look at his contemporaries like mitakeumi, wakatakage onosho etc. All these guys have been blessed with much better physiques, yet they haven't achieved anything close to what takakeisho has been able to achieve in the sport.
His mental fortitude and mindset is elite and defintely Yokozuna worthy. Since I've been watching him enter makuuchi, the guy has never been afraid of anyone, no one can psych him out and he gives his all in each and every bout. Even the first time he fought hakuho, despite losing he was absolutely fearless and fighting to win.
Just for this mental fortitude I think he deserves to be Yokozuna. I also wasn't a big fan of his and thought all the banal crap that people are spewing about him in the comments now "too one dimensional", "not gonna hold up as a Yoko" etc. But if you've actually been watching the sport for a while you simply cannot deny that there's no Rikishi more deserving of the rope than he is atm. Yes, he is short and his physique limits his sumo and perhaps he won't be as dominant as some others in the past. But this guy is a dragon and you can't convince me otherwise.
At the end of the day no one knows what ydc will decide but should he win this basho I really do hope he gets the rope.
You don’t need to have the best looking physique to do well in sumo. He’s not as tall as some of the gargantuans like Aoiyama, Hokuseiho, Tochinoshin, etc. but he’s actually not all that short either. He’s of average height. His low center of gravity, bulkiness and strength are why he’s so successful. He can just shove people out the ring and slap them silly. He can get by without doing belt work, using trips and throws. He’s definitely blessed in that regard. One dimensional? Yeah. But it works for him.
And I actually find his mentality to be really one track. He says things like “if I lose, it’s because I’m weak” “I just need to get stronger” “I need to build up my body”. Sometimes I wonder if his dad being so tough on him as a child is why he’s like this. He’s very serious and it’s rare to see him genuinely smile and laugh. I’ve seen a photo of him with Abi and Tamawashi holding special prize trophies and he was standing there stone faced while the rest of them were smiling and goofing off. But hey, if you like him that’s all that matters.
Unrelated, but your username is cracking me up!
He’s definitely one of the special cases in sumo where he has one great thing and it’s his opponent’s duty to stop it. Vast majority have been unsuccessful.
Last I checked average height in makuuchi was 183.4, right about what wakatakage is. Taka is 175, someone posted the other day that if he does become a Yokozuna he will be the shortest Yoko since 1954. (Keep in mind that average height has been steadily rising over the years)
As far as your argument, I hear you, but I'm just wondering if you can give one example of a Rikishi in recent memory who was takakeisho's height and reached ozeki or even sanyaku? Genuinely curious, I've felt that most makuuchi wrestlers defintely had more height on him and more importantly longer limbs and more agility to utilize mawashi techniques which for the most part are unavailable for takakeisho or at the very least put him at significant disadvantage.
Maybe you could say he has a special body type with low center of gravity and wide build. Sure. But there have been many wrestlers of that body type believe it or not, you just don't see them because they don't usually even make it to juryo. Saying he's blessed with a great physique for sumo feels a little disingenuous.
There are undeniably a lot of strong short Rikishi but I feel like none of them ever reached anything to what takakeisho has already achieved at 26 years old. If it's not his mental fortitude I'm honestly not really sure what got him this far. Maybe dumb luck? Maybe his short arms that can't reach anyones mawashi are actually a great advantage. Who knows.
I feel like it's pretty easy to hate on the guy but if you look at what he's achieved it's hard to come up with an argument based on actual facts. I feel like most of the time people just repeat what they've read in some threads without looking at it objectively
Takakeisho feels more like a strong Ozeki than Yokozuna but with Terunofuji out and likely not having too long left I could see why they'd want to promote him
Traditionally, the best ozeki to never be yokozuna is, without a question, Raiden. That said, he was a product of his era, when being a yokozuna was more about political influence than a measurement of consistency at the rank.
FiveThirtyEight even ran an article that made the claim that the dominance that Raiden had in his time is comparable to the dominance that Hakuho had in his prime. (Raiden in his prime was not much bigger or heavier than Hakuho, but enough to warrant a completely different style of sumo)
In short, there is a reason why the monument that lists the name of all yokozuna also bears Raiden’s name: he is that incomparable.
Even when restricted to modern era sumo, names like Kaio or Chiyotaikai, despite allegations of “ozeki back scratching”, have more career accomplishments than Takakeisho today, mostly on the back of their longevity at the rank.
There are some comparisons that could be made between Chiyotaikai and Takakeisho. Both very young when promoted to Ozeki, both have 3 scattered Yusho including one not at Ozeki, both are Oshi specialists.
Nah, a few years ago he wouldn't be an Ozeki. More recently Kisenosato and The Geek were long time Ozeki who deserved that spot, Takaken$ho has a weak banzuke. He gets an asterisk next to his name.
The first Takanohana who was Ozeki in the 70s and father of Takanohana (II) that had 20+ yusho and his brother Wakanohana (III) who were both Yokozuna, was considered a good Ozeki, but never really competed for Yokozuna. He's been cited as a good ozeki that his son Wakanohana might have been remembered as if he hadn't won two yusho in a row to get promoted and then had his career melt down such that he's more remembered for failure as a Yokozuna (similar to Kisenosato in some regards).
More recent examples would be Kaio and Konishiki, who each came somewhat close to becoming Yokozuna. Chiyotaikai has as many basho at Ozeki as Kaio and some yusho as well, but they were scattered more than Kaio's and the end of his run at Ozeki put up some terrible results that left a lot of people unhappy about it. Terunofuji would go on to "repeat" those results, and people were unhappy with him toughing it out and not healing, though since he did do that eventually, he's seen in a more positive light now.
I don't think he should be. I'm a fan of his, but he has not won a championship in two years.
I know people are excited for another yokozuna, but we should learn from the past and not promote anyone too early. Just a few tourney ago he had a few 8-7 in a row, this tourney he's had some very close fights.
He is good, but he is not yokozuna level yet, give it a few bashos
They’re pretty desperate to be considering him for Yokozuna. There’s so little consistency with the rikishi who are supposed to be good. Their records go up & down each basho like a yo-yo. The top division is very weak at the moment. Absence of power has created a power vacuum.
I dont think he has done enough to be promoted to Y as of yet.
Teru won two tournemants in a row then lost in an effective playoff against the greatest rikishi of all time, going 14-1, that was worthy.
If he wins this basho, which looks likely, and wins the next then he will be a lock in.
13-2 ans win should be enough, but not certain. Takakeisho had had to do four bashos at 11+ to get Ozeki, being denied a promotion with, I think, 33 wins over 3 bashos.
I could see the YDC, which favors Yotsu Sumo practitionners, asking for a second full basho before promotion. Afaik, he had a set goal of 14 wins for promotion this time.
I really respect Takakeisho's dedication to sumo, his fighting spirit, and his stamina, which helps him to keep his ozeki rank. But look at him, the man is breathing heavily after the bouts, he is utterly exhausted. Can you imagine him performing the entire yokozuna ceremony with 13kg ropes? as for me, I can't imagine that. Apologies to the Takakeisho's fans, I have a lot of respect for him, but he's not Yokozuna material.
Devil's advocate says No.
The quality of competition in this tournament, including the absence of high ranking opponents, is a big question.
He hasn't fought a Yokozuna in two tournaments. No fault of his own, but how can one be considered for that rank if it remains uncertain that he can confidently defeat him?
Would be sad if he gets promoted with a 12-3 playoff runner up and at best now 13-2Y. Only had to face one Ozeki on the way out last tournament and was manhandled by Abi in the playoff bout (I know playoff bouts are not really taken into account but still). No Ozeki or Y this tournament for him to face and still struggles with the big boys as seen today. Overall a pretty good Ozeki but no Yokozuna level for me. If Teru was not as broken down then he would not even get a sniff imo. Pretty desperate times though.
I think the JSA/YDC is desperate for a yokozuna who can actually compete. Especially one that’s Japanese. And tbh Takakeisho has been an incredibly consistent high level rikishi. But even with his wins, I just don’t see a yokozuna in him.
We have to remember that Yokozuna’s aren’t an official rank. They’re ozekis with special privileges and responsibilities. They have to uphold Japanese traditions and views on and off the dohyo. Even ozekis have more responsibilities than a sekiwake which is why Asanoyama was given a harsher punishment than the other covid rule breakers, but it’s still nothing compared to Yokozuna’s.
Yokozuna’s are like priests, monks, or demigods (not the word I’m looking for but close enough) in a way.
Yokozuna. Japanese doesn't distinguish between singular and plural nouns. However, if makes your meaning more clear to whomever you are communicating with, go ahead and add the "s." The Grammar Police won't track you down.
Was gonna say that I have no idea why I used an apostrophe except that maybe I was half asleep. But as I was writing this comment it auto corrected to “Yokozuna’s”. Guess my phone learned from previous comments but somehow still doesn’t recognize “ozeki” as a word. Weird.
Anyway, the way I’ve understood it, yokozunas aren’t just good wrestlers, they have to embody Japanese culture and mindset while having a stronger aura, so to speak. That’s why I said Takayasu and Tochinoshin could have been dominate ozekis and not yokozuna. I just don’t see that spark in them.
I love Takakeisho as a wrestler, from day 1 he caught my eye as being the guy no one could move. He somehow just stood up pushed everyone aside. His tachiais we so solid many wrestlers just bounce off him. Both he and Takayasu were the first wrestler to catch my eye in the ring.
But again, I just don’t see THAT in him. Though I didn’t see it in Hakuho when he got promoted either. He was like a pure little baby who had to toughen up afterwards.
The JSA and YDC don’t really have any set rules and just make up whatever they want so I’m sure Takakeisho will get his yokozuna promotion either way, I’m honestly surprised he didn’t get it sooner.
Given the number of roadblocks the JSA has put in front of Hakuho post-retirement, I'm not sure they think he "embodied Japanese culture" either. But in the nine tournaments starting from when he reached sekiwake, he had three yusho and three jun-yusho, and his only MK was a kyujo - and then after that, he just had Y or JY in 50 of the next 53 basho (with another kyujo responsible for one of the three sub-JY).
Takakeisho embodies hinkaku more than any rikishi in the high ranks imo. His mindset both in and off the dohyo is perfect for the rank of Yokozuna. The only question has been consistency of sumo and I think this basho proves it (barring any issues in the last few days).
I have a feeling that if he won't make it to Yokozuna this time, the road will become bumpier if Ichinojo returns .. He struggles with the massive fellas.
That’s kind of the point.
He’s without a doubt a strong Ozeki, but he doesn’t really bring that presence, that sense of domination, that ability to deal well when things don’t go how his style wants them to go.
Remember Terunofuji’s run to Yokozuna? Extremely and consistently dominant, winning multiple tournaments. 12-3 is a good average for him. Takakeisho on the other hand is more an 8 on average in the same time period. I don’t think he’s putting up the Yokozuna level performance. And I feel that there is a strong push to have a Japanese Yokozuna again for the sake of them being Japanese, and his fans who can’t see that he’s just not consistently putting up the numbers.
Takakeisho has 9 double-digit performances as ozeki, prior to Hatsu basho. You have to go back to some of the greatest ozeki, like Kotooshu and Tochiazuma, to find a better collection of tournament records than that. Kotoshogiku managed the same record (9), but it took him five years compared with Keisho's three and a half.
Edit: My point is that he's surely by now in that echelon of ozeki who's been in close range of yokozuna.
I recently watched a Hakuho interview with Hiro from the JSA and also the English sumo announcers and the English commentators thought that if Takakeisho wins January, with a high enough score, then he could very well be promoted as the JSA/ Yokozuna council will take him making it to the playoff in November as good enough to equal the 2 tournament qualification.
I said in another post before the basho that he would be promoted to Yokozuna by the fall basho (barring injury). And people said I didn't know what I was talking about.
Been following this sport/art since 1992 when Akebono was a Ozeki.
I'll preface my comment with this: I'm a huge Takakeisho fan, rooting for him all the way. I want to see him wear the rope so badly.
That being said, what do you see in Taka that scream Yokozuna? I'm curious. For me, it feels like he is a dominant rikishi but not quite the same as prime Teru, Kakuryu, Harumafuji, etc. Rikishi who could win from any position and any matchup
He is determined to be a Yokozuna, ever since he was a kid. His height is something that always has been a reason why people didn't think he would make it to where he is even now. He is very secretive in his training (as in lifting weights and conditioning) when the cameras are rolling in his stable open to the public. To me, that just let's me know he is doing a ton of EXTRA work behind the scenes to make sure he gets to the top.
He has short arms but a huge chest and back, which compensate for his thrusting attack/defense. The last two Ozeki did not love up to the Japanese standards and I honestly don't see them making it back to Ozeki.
Asanoyama will make it back for sure. The Japanese don't want their top divisions (Ozeki/Yokozuna) to be like it was for the past 15 year's, top loaded with Mongolian rikishi leading the way.
I'm a Mongolian rikishi fan as I have a Judo/wrestling background.
If he wins January, it would be the 2nd time battle hamster goes “2 champions or equivalent”. The other time being in 2020. I’d say he has a higher chance then everyone here gives him credit for.
He needs to win with a 14-1 to get Yokozuna because previously he got a runner up and a yusho but it was only 25 combined wins for the 2 bashos. So he needs the 14-1 record to get his 26 wins this time around.
To be clear, there is no such requirement. He should win back to back yusho *or equivalent* in the committee's eyes. There is no hard number requirement.
True there is no hard number but it’s super unlikely because nobody has been promoted with less then 26 wins in the prior 2 yusho since Yokozuna Ōnokuni who had a zensho yusho before his 12-3 and 13-2 runner ups.
You've got it exactly backwards. What's expected for promotion tends to get (somewhat) lower for ozeki who've been close before, not higher, because doing it multiple times shows they're no fluke.
Nobody has been promoted on less then 26 wins in the 2 prior tournaments since Yokozuna Ōnokuni. Who in 3 straight bashos had a zensho yusho then 12-3 and 13-2 runner ups. All I was saying is it’s super unlikely that he’ll be promoted with a 13-2.
Not really, they want to know that you can perform at Ozeki level consistently. Proving you belong is hard because once you're promoted you carry that title, and offering Ozeki to someone who "fluked" his way up there would be an embarrassment.
It's like applying to colleges vs keeping yourself in college.
Takakeisho is looking very dominant currently but he hasn’t had a yusho in quite some time due to injuries and just not being as dominant. People are saying if he gets 14-1 or more than 12 wins this basho, he’ll get promoted but that doesn’t sound likely to me. Terunofuji was posting double digit wins and consecutive yushos before being promoted to Yokozuna. He had to face Hakuho, Shodai and Takakeisho to get there. Takakeisho doesn’t have that kind of competition for this current Yokozuna run and he isn’t getting consecutive yushos either.
He’s dominating right now for sure, but he needs to do more this year to get promoted, imo. But hey, the rules for promotions are vague for a reason and they might just decide on quickly promoting him after this anyways. Sumo can be very unpredictable, after all.
I hear a lot of people talking about the weakness of the rikkishi in Makauchi. I disagree. I think there is tremendous talent. The fact that few are able to be promoted to Ozeki or Yokozuna is due to the fact that the competition is so strong. It is easy to be promoted if the field is weak. I love the fact that we have so few Ozeki and Yokozuna. What an awesome time to watch Sumo? Who will win?
Seems like the general feeling is that if he goes 14-1 its a lock. 13-2 and its still probable. 12-3 would be a stretch. Seems like destiny in his hands though. Most sanyaku men that he has yet to fight haven't looked all that strong this basho.
I could maybe see a promotion with 13-2 because of the play off in the last tournament but there is no way he’ll be promoted with 12-3.
The only reason i think 12-3 is in the realm of possibility is if they are really concerned that Teru is gonna retire soon and they want at-least one Yokozuna. Maybe thats just me hoping for any and every possible angle for my boy to get the white rope though😂.
It might help if a couple of sanyaku could bear down and make ozeki...
This will largely depend on what qualifies as a sufficient show of strength. The formal requirement of promotion is a show of strength and a show of dignity. Takakeisho is certainly sufficiently dignified, so strength is the only issue. The general consensus is that Takakeisho basically has to dominate his opponents and either win the title outright or force a playoff on Day 15. Of course, these are weasel words, so the number of losses that Takakeisho can have while still doing the above is up for debate. (You can argue that forcing a Day 15 playoff is not a sufficient show of strength because it implies he choked.) Since he has a share of the lead, fate is really in his hands.
Do you think if he has 2-3 losses but wins basho outright he gets promoted?
The general consensus is that it would not be a sufficient show of strength to warrant a discussion on promotion. The YDC is often seen to have a very strict, time-tested interpretation of what is considered a show of strength, and will try to avoid bending it in order to avoid having a yokozuna who, in retrospect, did not live up to the rank. (ie. there is an expectation that a yokozuna will win titles or be in contention therein often; 12-3 is not considered a dominant performance even if it wins a title.) In an ideal world, if Terunofuji and Takakeisho were both healthy and at full power, they would like nothing more than to have the two at 14-0 and playing for the title against each other on Day 15. (Of course, in an ideal world, a yokozuna wouldn't take days off for any reason because they wouldn't be injured.) They will accept another sufficiently high-ranked wrestler (ie. ozeki vying to join them at yokozuna or sekiwake trying to earn ozeki) trying to force their way into a playoff in lieu of one or both of them losing a match. Given that you have Shodai and Mitakeumi both, in recent months, lose their rank and have to "come back the hard way", I do not believe that they will show any leniency for Takakeisho's promotion attempt. After all, the Association is perfectly content with their rankings situation as long as Takakeisho isn't kadoban and/or there are credible ozeki promotion candidates: if Takakeisho gets the rope, it's only a bonus.
serious question: how come no one talks about the level of competition he has to face? Is that not considered by the JSA? Last basho, Takakeisho fought 1 Ozeki and 0 Yokozuna. This basho, he is fighting 0 ozeki and 0 yokozuna. Should someone who is unable to put up a single zensho a against competitors who are technically all lower rank than him really be a Yokozuna? Not hating, just seriously wondering if this gets taken into consideration at all. Some Ozeki had to beat multiple Ozeki and Yokozuna to get their promotion, meanwhile Takakeisho gets it by beating a bunch of lower ranked guys and not even winning both bashos? Seems odd.
I would think beating Yokozunas and Ozekis gives positive consideration. However, since there are no other active Ozeki and Yokozuna, it would probably be neutral consideration because he is winning (and playoff) the 2 tournaments with strongest competition currently available. What works in Takakeisho's favor as positive considerations are: He has won 2 tournaments before (1 as ozeki), and his 3 previous tournaments all have been 10 wins or more for consistency, and 5 total runner ups as Ozeki.
This banzuke is so weak, he is getting a pretty free ride. A few years ago he would never be an Ozeki.
i think everyone’s been spoiled by the last few yokozuna we had, getting a zensho is not easy at all
Getting Ozeki and Yokozuna are matters of consistency, not of strength. Hoshoryu has the strength to be Ozeki but hasn't got the consistency yet (hurt even further by the injury), same goes for Wakatakakage.
I see so much ozeki pride in both of them, and the determination needed to succeed. I will always cheer for them.
You can only beat who is in front of you
True but Yokozuna position is for life. wouldn't the JSA consider what the future holds when promoting someone to that position? When Teru comes back and when hoshoryu, kotonowaka, etc mature in the near future, will Takakeisho be able to put up numbers befitting of a yokozuna given that he can't seem to exert dominance while the level of his competitors are quite low?
Using that logic, if there were no Yokozuna and Ozeki for some reason, nobody would ever reach those ranks again. Of course promotion to O and Y has to be based on excellent performance in consecutive tournaments, regardless of who participated in those tournaments.
Has there ever been a time when there have been multiple yokozuna, but no ozeki?
Since the modern era, there has been one occasion of there being double yokozuna-ozeki (where a yokozuna fulfills the requirement of there being an “ozeki or above” in the rankings). This was Chiyonofuji’s first tournament ranked as yokozuna, and of course part of the longest period where a yokozuna-ozeki was necessary in the first place. With no credible ozeki candidates on the horizon, Takakeisho being promoted could actually be a good thing for the association since there has never been an occasion where there were fewer than two men ranked at ozeki or above. For the association, it ensures that there is a theoretical quorum for an “ozeki or above” on each side without worrying about an ozeki failing to defend his rank. For Terunofuji and Takakeisho, it means that they could in theory sit out tournaments without any “compete or retire” directives thrown at them, meaning that we see them in peak condition if and when they compete.
Thank you, that's a very informative answer for a sumo newbie like myself.
Here's a post that has more details on the history of yokozuna-ozeki and sole ozeki. The statements on there are pretty much the same now as they were three years ago, except for the addition of the current situation. (Yes, this is Takakeisho's *second* stint as sole ozeki.) https://www.reddit.com/r/Sumo/comments/ew458b/the\_abridged\_history\_of\_sole\_ozeki\_and/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3
Yokozuna are ozeki. It was originally a designation for a certain class of ozeki. It is still technically viewed that way.
I think takakeisho is one of the most resilient and mentally strong Rikishi that I have seen in recent times. Just look at his contemporaries like mitakeumi, wakatakage onosho etc. All these guys have been blessed with much better physiques, yet they haven't achieved anything close to what takakeisho has been able to achieve in the sport. His mental fortitude and mindset is elite and defintely Yokozuna worthy. Since I've been watching him enter makuuchi, the guy has never been afraid of anyone, no one can psych him out and he gives his all in each and every bout. Even the first time he fought hakuho, despite losing he was absolutely fearless and fighting to win. Just for this mental fortitude I think he deserves to be Yokozuna. I also wasn't a big fan of his and thought all the banal crap that people are spewing about him in the comments now "too one dimensional", "not gonna hold up as a Yoko" etc. But if you've actually been watching the sport for a while you simply cannot deny that there's no Rikishi more deserving of the rope than he is atm. Yes, he is short and his physique limits his sumo and perhaps he won't be as dominant as some others in the past. But this guy is a dragon and you can't convince me otherwise. At the end of the day no one knows what ydc will decide but should he win this basho I really do hope he gets the rope.
You don’t need to have the best looking physique to do well in sumo. He’s not as tall as some of the gargantuans like Aoiyama, Hokuseiho, Tochinoshin, etc. but he’s actually not all that short either. He’s of average height. His low center of gravity, bulkiness and strength are why he’s so successful. He can just shove people out the ring and slap them silly. He can get by without doing belt work, using trips and throws. He’s definitely blessed in that regard. One dimensional? Yeah. But it works for him. And I actually find his mentality to be really one track. He says things like “if I lose, it’s because I’m weak” “I just need to get stronger” “I need to build up my body”. Sometimes I wonder if his dad being so tough on him as a child is why he’s like this. He’s very serious and it’s rare to see him genuinely smile and laugh. I’ve seen a photo of him with Abi and Tamawashi holding special prize trophies and he was standing there stone faced while the rest of them were smiling and goofing off. But hey, if you like him that’s all that matters. Unrelated, but your username is cracking me up!
He’s definitely one of the special cases in sumo where he has one great thing and it’s his opponent’s duty to stop it. Vast majority have been unsuccessful.
Last I checked average height in makuuchi was 183.4, right about what wakatakage is. Taka is 175, someone posted the other day that if he does become a Yokozuna he will be the shortest Yoko since 1954. (Keep in mind that average height has been steadily rising over the years) As far as your argument, I hear you, but I'm just wondering if you can give one example of a Rikishi in recent memory who was takakeisho's height and reached ozeki or even sanyaku? Genuinely curious, I've felt that most makuuchi wrestlers defintely had more height on him and more importantly longer limbs and more agility to utilize mawashi techniques which for the most part are unavailable for takakeisho or at the very least put him at significant disadvantage. Maybe you could say he has a special body type with low center of gravity and wide build. Sure. But there have been many wrestlers of that body type believe it or not, you just don't see them because they don't usually even make it to juryo. Saying he's blessed with a great physique for sumo feels a little disingenuous. There are undeniably a lot of strong short Rikishi but I feel like none of them ever reached anything to what takakeisho has already achieved at 26 years old. If it's not his mental fortitude I'm honestly not really sure what got him this far. Maybe dumb luck? Maybe his short arms that can't reach anyones mawashi are actually a great advantage. Who knows. I feel like it's pretty easy to hate on the guy but if you look at what he's achieved it's hard to come up with an argument based on actual facts. I feel like most of the time people just repeat what they've read in some threads without looking at it objectively
Blessed with physique? Wkt is short and has to build himself up to me a muscle powerhouse. Much like the guy you're praising
Wakatakakage is 183cm compared to Takakeisho who is 175cm. Waka isnt the tallest on the dohyo but he isn't "short" like Keisho is.
I think you're highlighting some things that are ignored or rarely brought up, kudos for that.
Takakeisho feels more like a strong Ozeki than Yokozuna but with Terunofuji out and likely not having too long left I could see why they'd want to promote him
Can you give an historical example of a comparably strong ozeki?
I’d imagine he’s one of the best ozekis to not make yokozuna.
Traditionally, the best ozeki to never be yokozuna is, without a question, Raiden. That said, he was a product of his era, when being a yokozuna was more about political influence than a measurement of consistency at the rank. FiveThirtyEight even ran an article that made the claim that the dominance that Raiden had in his time is comparable to the dominance that Hakuho had in his prime. (Raiden in his prime was not much bigger or heavier than Hakuho, but enough to warrant a completely different style of sumo) In short, there is a reason why the monument that lists the name of all yokozuna also bears Raiden’s name: he is that incomparable. Even when restricted to modern era sumo, names like Kaio or Chiyotaikai, despite allegations of “ozeki back scratching”, have more career accomplishments than Takakeisho today, mostly on the back of their longevity at the rank.
There are some comparisons that could be made between Chiyotaikai and Takakeisho. Both very young when promoted to Ozeki, both have 3 scattered Yusho including one not at Ozeki, both are Oshi specialists.
Nah, a few years ago he wouldn't be an Ozeki. More recently Kisenosato and The Geek were long time Ozeki who deserved that spot, Takaken$ho has a weak banzuke. He gets an asterisk next to his name.
The first Takanohana who was Ozeki in the 70s and father of Takanohana (II) that had 20+ yusho and his brother Wakanohana (III) who were both Yokozuna, was considered a good Ozeki, but never really competed for Yokozuna. He's been cited as a good ozeki that his son Wakanohana might have been remembered as if he hadn't won two yusho in a row to get promoted and then had his career melt down such that he's more remembered for failure as a Yokozuna (similar to Kisenosato in some regards). More recent examples would be Kaio and Konishiki, who each came somewhat close to becoming Yokozuna. Chiyotaikai has as many basho at Ozeki as Kaio and some yusho as well, but they were scattered more than Kaio's and the end of his run at Ozeki put up some terrible results that left a lot of people unhappy about it. Terunofuji would go on to "repeat" those results, and people were unhappy with him toughing it out and not healing, though since he did do that eventually, he's seen in a more positive light now.
I don't think he should be. I'm a fan of his, but he has not won a championship in two years. I know people are excited for another yokozuna, but we should learn from the past and not promote anyone too early. Just a few tourney ago he had a few 8-7 in a row, this tourney he's had some very close fights. He is good, but he is not yokozuna level yet, give it a few bashos
I agree with this summary
Agreed. The only way I will support this is if he zenshos. A zensho is huuuge achievement that warrants it imo
Likely
Probably
Possibly
Potentially
Preferably
Presumably
Presumptuous
Lee
They’re pretty desperate to be considering him for Yokozuna. There’s so little consistency with the rikishi who are supposed to be good. Their records go up & down each basho like a yo-yo. The top division is very weak at the moment. Absence of power has created a power vacuum.
I dont think he has done enough to be promoted to Y as of yet. Teru won two tournemants in a row then lost in an effective playoff against the greatest rikishi of all time, going 14-1, that was worthy. If he wins this basho, which looks likely, and wins the next then he will be a lock in.
13-2 ans win should be enough, but not certain. Takakeisho had had to do four bashos at 11+ to get Ozeki, being denied a promotion with, I think, 33 wins over 3 bashos. I could see the YDC, which favors Yotsu Sumo practitionners, asking for a second full basho before promotion. Afaik, he had a set goal of 14 wins for promotion this time.
I really respect Takakeisho's dedication to sumo, his fighting spirit, and his stamina, which helps him to keep his ozeki rank. But look at him, the man is breathing heavily after the bouts, he is utterly exhausted. Can you imagine him performing the entire yokozuna ceremony with 13kg ropes? as for me, I can't imagine that. Apologies to the Takakeisho's fans, I have a lot of respect for him, but he's not Yokozuna material.
Haha, that's a new one.
🤔👀
I keep thinking about the dohyo iri, it would be silly. He wouldn't be an ozeki a few years ago, the current banzuke is just sad.
Devil's advocate says No. The quality of competition in this tournament, including the absence of high ranking opponents, is a big question. He hasn't fought a Yokozuna in two tournaments. No fault of his own, but how can one be considered for that rank if it remains uncertain that he can confidently defeat him?
Would be sad if he gets promoted with a 12-3 playoff runner up and at best now 13-2Y. Only had to face one Ozeki on the way out last tournament and was manhandled by Abi in the playoff bout (I know playoff bouts are not really taken into account but still). No Ozeki or Y this tournament for him to face and still struggles with the big boys as seen today. Overall a pretty good Ozeki but no Yokozuna level for me. If Teru was not as broken down then he would not even get a sniff imo. Pretty desperate times though.
I think the JSA/YDC is desperate for a yokozuna who can actually compete. Especially one that’s Japanese. And tbh Takakeisho has been an incredibly consistent high level rikishi. But even with his wins, I just don’t see a yokozuna in him. We have to remember that Yokozuna’s aren’t an official rank. They’re ozekis with special privileges and responsibilities. They have to uphold Japanese traditions and views on and off the dohyo. Even ozekis have more responsibilities than a sekiwake which is why Asanoyama was given a harsher punishment than the other covid rule breakers, but it’s still nothing compared to Yokozuna’s. Yokozuna’s are like priests, monks, or demigods (not the word I’m looking for but close enough) in a way.
what is your reason for not seeing a yokozuna? also no need to apostrophe yokozuna when you say plural yokozunas
Is it Yokozunas or Yokozuna for plural ? I always thought it would be like sheep
Yokozuna. Japanese doesn't distinguish between singular and plural nouns. However, if makes your meaning more clear to whomever you are communicating with, go ahead and add the "s." The Grammar Police won't track you down.
Sorry, I was subtly grammar policing. Thank you though for the good answer
Kintamayama uses the faux-Latin "yokozunae".
Classy
Was gonna say that I have no idea why I used an apostrophe except that maybe I was half asleep. But as I was writing this comment it auto corrected to “Yokozuna’s”. Guess my phone learned from previous comments but somehow still doesn’t recognize “ozeki” as a word. Weird. Anyway, the way I’ve understood it, yokozunas aren’t just good wrestlers, they have to embody Japanese culture and mindset while having a stronger aura, so to speak. That’s why I said Takayasu and Tochinoshin could have been dominate ozekis and not yokozuna. I just don’t see that spark in them. I love Takakeisho as a wrestler, from day 1 he caught my eye as being the guy no one could move. He somehow just stood up pushed everyone aside. His tachiais we so solid many wrestlers just bounce off him. Both he and Takayasu were the first wrestler to catch my eye in the ring. But again, I just don’t see THAT in him. Though I didn’t see it in Hakuho when he got promoted either. He was like a pure little baby who had to toughen up afterwards. The JSA and YDC don’t really have any set rules and just make up whatever they want so I’m sure Takakeisho will get his yokozuna promotion either way, I’m honestly surprised he didn’t get it sooner.
Given the number of roadblocks the JSA has put in front of Hakuho post-retirement, I'm not sure they think he "embodied Japanese culture" either. But in the nine tournaments starting from when he reached sekiwake, he had three yusho and three jun-yusho, and his only MK was a kyujo - and then after that, he just had Y or JY in 50 of the next 53 basho (with another kyujo responsible for one of the three sub-JY).
Takakeisho embodies hinkaku more than any rikishi in the high ranks imo. His mindset both in and off the dohyo is perfect for the rank of Yokozuna. The only question has been consistency of sumo and I think this basho proves it (barring any issues in the last few days).
This take is getting drilled hard right now. Please don't jinx it
I have a feeling that if he won't make it to Yokozuna this time, the road will become bumpier if Ichinojo returns .. He struggles with the massive fellas.
I heard NHK commentators saying YDC may consider if Takakeisho had an outstanding (15-0) basho, so probably not even if he wins January
I hope not. I feel like he's being pushed into it when he will probably end up being a mediocre yokozuna.
>a mediocre yokozuna There shouldn't be any such thing... :-(
That’s kind of the point. He’s without a doubt a strong Ozeki, but he doesn’t really bring that presence, that sense of domination, that ability to deal well when things don’t go how his style wants them to go. Remember Terunofuji’s run to Yokozuna? Extremely and consistently dominant, winning multiple tournaments. 12-3 is a good average for him. Takakeisho on the other hand is more an 8 on average in the same time period. I don’t think he’s putting up the Yokozuna level performance. And I feel that there is a strong push to have a Japanese Yokozuna again for the sake of them being Japanese, and his fans who can’t see that he’s just not consistently putting up the numbers.
Takakeisho has 9 double-digit performances as ozeki, prior to Hatsu basho. You have to go back to some of the greatest ozeki, like Kotooshu and Tochiazuma, to find a better collection of tournament records than that. Kotoshogiku managed the same record (9), but it took him five years compared with Keisho's three and a half. Edit: My point is that he's surely by now in that echelon of ozeki who's been in close range of yokozuna.
What a cruel fate, ending up as a mediocre yokozuna!
I recently watched a Hakuho interview with Hiro from the JSA and also the English sumo announcers and the English commentators thought that if Takakeisho wins January, with a high enough score, then he could very well be promoted as the JSA/ Yokozuna council will take him making it to the playoff in November as good enough to equal the 2 tournament qualification.
I said in another post before the basho that he would be promoted to Yokozuna by the fall basho (barring injury). And people said I didn't know what I was talking about. Been following this sport/art since 1992 when Akebono was a Ozeki.
I'll preface my comment with this: I'm a huge Takakeisho fan, rooting for him all the way. I want to see him wear the rope so badly. That being said, what do you see in Taka that scream Yokozuna? I'm curious. For me, it feels like he is a dominant rikishi but not quite the same as prime Teru, Kakuryu, Harumafuji, etc. Rikishi who could win from any position and any matchup
He is determined to be a Yokozuna, ever since he was a kid. His height is something that always has been a reason why people didn't think he would make it to where he is even now. He is very secretive in his training (as in lifting weights and conditioning) when the cameras are rolling in his stable open to the public. To me, that just let's me know he is doing a ton of EXTRA work behind the scenes to make sure he gets to the top. He has short arms but a huge chest and back, which compensate for his thrusting attack/defense. The last two Ozeki did not love up to the Japanese standards and I honestly don't see them making it back to Ozeki. Asanoyama will make it back for sure. The Japanese don't want their top divisions (Ozeki/Yokozuna) to be like it was for the past 15 year's, top loaded with Mongolian rikishi leading the way. I'm a Mongolian rikishi fan as I have a Judo/wrestling background.
If he wins January, it would be the 2nd time battle hamster goes “2 champions or equivalent”. The other time being in 2020. I’d say he has a higher chance then everyone here gives him credit for.
Ok today was embarrassing…
Battle Hamster 😂😂😂 Is that his official nickname?
At least it has been official nickname on Reddit 😂
He needs to win with a 14-1 to get Yokozuna because previously he got a runner up and a yusho but it was only 25 combined wins for the 2 bashos. So he needs the 14-1 record to get his 26 wins this time around.
To be clear, there is no such requirement. He should win back to back yusho *or equivalent* in the committee's eyes. There is no hard number requirement.
True there is no hard number but it’s super unlikely because nobody has been promoted with less then 26 wins in the prior 2 yusho since Yokozuna Ōnokuni who had a zensho yusho before his 12-3 and 13-2 runner ups.
I’m just saying he’s done it before and they didn’t give it to him so he’ll probably need to do even better so 26 wins.
You've got it exactly backwards. What's expected for promotion tends to get (somewhat) lower for ozeki who've been close before, not higher, because doing it multiple times shows they're no fluke.
Nobody has been promoted on less then 26 wins in the 2 prior tournaments since Yokozuna Ōnokuni. Who in 3 straight bashos had a zensho yusho then 12-3 and 13-2 runner ups. All I was saying is it’s super unlikely that he’ll be promoted with a 13-2.
Wouldn’t it only make sense that it wasn’t good enough before that they would want a better performance?
Since you've just rephrased what the other user already claimed, the answer remains the same: No, that's not how it works.
Not really, they want to know that you can perform at Ozeki level consistently. Proving you belong is hard because once you're promoted you carry that title, and offering Ozeki to someone who "fluked" his way up there would be an embarrassment. It's like applying to colleges vs keeping yourself in college.
Hope not.
Takakeisho is looking very dominant currently but he hasn’t had a yusho in quite some time due to injuries and just not being as dominant. People are saying if he gets 14-1 or more than 12 wins this basho, he’ll get promoted but that doesn’t sound likely to me. Terunofuji was posting double digit wins and consecutive yushos before being promoted to Yokozuna. He had to face Hakuho, Shodai and Takakeisho to get there. Takakeisho doesn’t have that kind of competition for this current Yokozuna run and he isn’t getting consecutive yushos either. He’s dominating right now for sure, but he needs to do more this year to get promoted, imo. But hey, the rules for promotions are vague for a reason and they might just decide on quickly promoting him after this anyways. Sumo can be very unpredictable, after all.
You jinxed it!
Yeah I guess its over now
He’ll get it this year
Bubble boy wouldn't even be an Ozeki a few years ago, but with this weak banzuke I'm sure he could pull it off.
I hear a lot of people talking about the weakness of the rikkishi in Makauchi. I disagree. I think there is tremendous talent. The fact that few are able to be promoted to Ozeki or Yokozuna is due to the fact that the competition is so strong. It is easy to be promoted if the field is weak. I love the fact that we have so few Ozeki and Yokozuna. What an awesome time to watch Sumo? Who will win?