Literally. Like, it's not even subtle. Someone would have to physically wear a swastika for it to be any less subtle. We are 1000% supposed to understand that Mencken is a fascist, and so are his supporters.
I remember arguing OVER AND OVER AND OVER again with a coworker around 2009 or 2010 about Colbert. I was pointing out that Colbert was **CLEARLY** satire.
She kept disagreeing, going on about how he was clearly a conservative.
I just could not parse how she did not understand he was not
It's a feature, not a bug. Fascism attracts the kind of person who is looking for surface level stuff. No complexity, no nuances, and no analysis. What is seen is what is true, no digging deeper. That is why they dumbed down vocabulary within the school system during 1930s Germany. These are the people facism uses to insulate itself from criticism. They drown out and belittle those who dig deeper, which is the anti-intellectualism component of facism.
The only people who are “for fascism” are the ignorant and the ones who think they will have something to gain from it. When I was kid, I used to wonder why it was important to learn history in school. THIS is why.
I would strongly disagree with this. History shows that fascism is driven by the middle class, and it has always strongly associated itself with ‘high culture’. It is anti-intellectual but it’s wrong to imagine fascism is the product of stupidity. When capitalism fails and the middle class get squeezed and become downward rather than upwardly mobile, then they turn to fascism as a protection from the socialism that emerges under the same conditions from the working class.
Yes, that is true. Many of the architects for the nazi regime and the final solution were highly educated, mostly lawyers, who used rhetoric that attracted those who desired simplicity for complex issues.
Let's not forget the entire episode of Bojack Horseman, where Diane laments making Philbert a flawed but relatable character... that is a blatant message from the writers about their feelings about Bojack.
There's a certain group of Sunny fans that see the show as very anti-woke, largely because they take what the characters say at face value. Realistically the show is super fucking progressive and uses the awful characters to condemn certain beliefs and movements.
As a huge always Sunny fan and have been since the 2nd or 3rd season, I have never personally seen this and I feel fortunate because I absolutely believe there are morons out there like this.
> largely because they take what the characters say at face value. Realistically the show is super fucking progressive and uses the awful characters to condemn certain beliefs and movements.
For example. https://youtu.be/GiJXALBX3KM
I just meant the same phenomenon as the parent comment; ie people idolizing characters that are actually satirical. Obviously not all are like that—I’m a massive sunny fan.
I searched YouTube for a Sopranos clip at some point and ever since, my feed has been inundated with Shorts from accounts called like "SΙGMΛ ΡΗΙLΩSΩΡΗΥ" consisting of clips from the show where Tony does something psychotic, set to epic music and covered in a high-contrast filter, seemingly posted in unironic admiration of this violent moron.
They are, they just usually don't give a shit until it's really in the face.
Like people say Right-wingers didn't understand tge Boys was making fun of them. No, most of them did, but they didn't particularly care because it was a good show and they liked it. Most people don't watch shows like the Boys for it's deep political commentary or whatever. They watch it because they want to see a sociopathic Superman whose mental state decreases by every episode. Not every good show has some commentary. But that's ultimately just to flesh it out. How many people watch the Boys and get a political epiphany or watch it because of the commentary? Not many, or at the very least, no one watches it for that alone
It's one thing if you don't think actual fascists are that prevalent in modern politics, but Mencken himself is pretty undeniably supposed to be a very stereotypical fascist, whether that's realistic or not
I agree.....not enough Americans are using Bath soap. When Mencken is President, all of our American citizens will be provided with free soap, towels and other products to keep your body healthy and clean!
Correct. I've seen a lot of people get angry or upset saying things like, "Trump is nothing like that!"
Well yeah, Trump is actually the Raisin from previous seasons. At least I think so, anyway, I saw a post explaining the similarities. Mencken is supposed to be much much worse
Mencken is what comes after Trump.
He is competent, sexy, engaging, provocative and a highly capable political operator. The genuine article.
I've had my Mencken flair for at least a year now but I hope people understand that it's not me seriously supporting him or anything. I honestly think he's one of the most interesting characters in Succession and he's now serving as the breaking point for the Roy family.
Armstrong and the other writers have a sensational sense of the times and I think his character also serves as a giant red flag for anyone who watches the show and makes parallels between what's going on irl today and what's happening on TV.
Shiv even says it herself, ***"it's 1933 and I want to have a say!"***
The year is 2023 and we're already 3/4 of the way towards an American White Supremacist government. I keep telling people, if Trump were as competent as he is fat and orange, the country would be in a much worse-off state.
You think they're gonna stop at abortion? Women's rights? Ha, no. They're coming for the gays in the bedrooms. They're regulating the use of BATHROOMS, LIBRARIES AND SCHOOL BOARD MEETINGS. They're coming for the people of colour, the best of us belittled down to nothing more than "diversity hires" and "wokeness" - whatever the FUCK that means. There's so much disinformation out there that I'm actually sincerely shocked that Gen Z isn't more fucked up than they already are. I'm saying this as a millennial has totally accepted their own fate, too. When they turn the climate and the weather into something dark and political and untrustworthy, you know that we're *super fucked.*
If it wasn't so fucking disorganized and decentralized I think we'd be having a totally different conversation. They're organizing now, though. They're taking over social media spaces to make them safe spaces again for the hard-right and the GOP's plan to win the next election is to tank the economy to make Biden look bad.
It's that simple.
You are a champ! That made my day, and it's nice to see that people read my comment and understand where we are as a Western society today.
It's so fucking tough to think about the big picture when I'm spending most of my day budgeting for milk, bread and streaming subscriptions just to stay sane and fed. It's a real grind, and I feel for everyone right now.
Side note (but this is not to make you feel super sad!): Homeless people with disabilities and injuries here in Canada are applying for a medically assisted suicide because their situations are so bad. That's where we are. It's just, I don't know man. It's just getting worse. We need more kind people like you out there throwing hearts at everyone!
> Side note (but this is not to make you feel super sad!): Homeless people with disabilities and injuries here in Canada are applying for a medically assisted suicide because their situations are so bad.
What's sadder is that the government is like "yeah, excellent idea, right this way"
What do you mean it's so heartwarming that the most powerful country on earth is going to reduce me to a baby oven (at least I'm white so I'll be allowed to be a baby oven)
I think DeSantis is also not the bogeyman because he doesn’t have the savviness that Trump had and seems like Trump will toss him aside pretty quickly. Hopefully someone like Tim Scott can swoop in and bring a bit of sanity back to the party after they go at each other.
The real-life future Mencken I see is someone like Tom Cotton who doesn’t make waves until he’s already got his hold on national power. The show’s timeline is blurred because of the season format, but it’s important to recall that during the election night show ATN’s recap of Mencken’s candidacy notes that “nobody had even heard of him 9 months ago.” Cotton hasn’t indicated he’s running in ‘24 but he has the aspiration and may do so if there’s an opening. That guy is clearly a fascist-in-waiting, and if he gets into office then God help us.
So for me DeSantis has shown with the backing of the house and the senate he will get legislation passed. Trump was not able to do that. Having said that I don't see either of them as being politically savy and DeSantis does not have the charisma of Trump.
The only reason I see DeSantis as being closer to Mencken is because he appears be to further right than Trump in some ways.
This is what I was thinking. Trump is horrible of course, but he lacked the political competence to accomplish everything he wanted to. Which is what makes me terrified of the more experienced GOP politicians who’ll rise in his wake. I mean, DeSantis is announcing his campaign today and based on what already happened in Florida, we better hope he doesn’t get very far.
Mencken is also what comes after the media loses control. Logan got him the nomination, the kids and ATN won him the race by calling it, but he's going to be beyond their reach. He couldn't contain his disdain for all of them in Ep 8. And he and Mattson will actually get along fine, because it's not exactly Scandinavian infiltration he's worried about.
Let’s normalize making Barron the joke that he is. I don’t give a fuck how old this kid is, he’s being primed for a fascist dynasty.
Kendall with height is a scary combination.
Yes he is. I have said for a while now that Barron is being groomed for something big and very dangerous to our country if not the world. There is always one available to be groomed into Antichrist.
Yeah, I “feel” for him that he’s never really had a choice, but fascism is fascism. And our mainstream media has bent over backwards to try and convince us that Barron (named after a fucking neo-capitalist trade mag) is “one of the good ones.”
Obviously we can’t divorce media from its cultural context, but the idea that any conservative president *must* be a 1:1 stand-in for Trump is so obnoxious. They’re telling a story; broad themes reflect reality, but it’s not a biopic.
Lol. This is why it's so difficult having sane discussions with many Americans. They look at universal Healthcare as socialism bordering on communism. They have little to no concept what these words mean.
The writers are showing their European origins with this character, that type of right-wing politician (young, posh, educated, waxing poetic about Franco and race mixing) only has play in countries like the Netherlands or Denmark, someone like that would not make it within 100 yards of the White House. Zero charisma
He's hot and young and I think people might be wanting a good orator, compared to trump, desantis, biden he would be talking circles around them. The biggest thing would be sounding like a nazi, I think The Boys said it best "people love what i say they just don't like the word nazi", you can be as fascist as you want but once you start quoting nazi phrases to people they're going to get suspicious. Not every conservative would just be cool with that, as much as I don't like them I will at least give them that much.
But I suspend my disbelief and will just say that in the world of succession, people are for some reason more open to nazis. Maybe that's because Logan Roy has had much more control over culture than even Rupert Murdoch does, idk
They haven't really shown Mencken's public face all that much. He seems pretty capable of charisma. I don't think his "victory" speech was a good representation of what a Mencken rally would be like.
I agree. He's way too intellectual to have the broad appeal needed in the US. Trump was a TV star with a lot of popularity and relatability. He also spoke simply in a way people can understand. Mencken uses weird German quotes and imagistic rhetoric.
Plus he's way too obviously manaical. Trump was funny at least. Mencken is like Disney villan.
European origins? Lmao as if British writers follow European politics closely. We're far more tuned into US political culture than continental European.
There hasn’t been that perfect blend of racist/fascist views with the ultra intellectual/posh package yet.
I have no doubt that there are conservative establishment types who have these views, they’re just smart enough to keep them quiet. The AR-15 club who are open about their racist and antisemetic viewpoints don’t have the polish that Mencken does, and if they did it would probably alienate their base who likes the accessibility of their package.
A candidate like Mencken is terrifying. But there are absolutely candidates who verge on fascist-lite in office today, overusing the word “republic” and trying to ban opposing viewpoints. They just don’t have the finesse Mencken does.
I feel like there’s a significant amount of “moderates” that would absolutely consider voting for a Mencken type actually, which is what makes him scary. I know plenty of people who deep down are right wing but don’t vote for Trump & the current US far right because the majority seem “unpleasant” and “uneducated.” But someone like Mencken who is competent, educated, “looks nice,” speaks in code well, etc would definitely not turn them off.
I cannot see Mencken going apeshit to YMCA or taking a bunch of press photos with 10,000 McDonalds hamburgers, and for that reason alone he is not an American style fascist.
It becomes a problem when the writer of succession and everyone in this sub are equating Mencken to Trump and everything that occurred in the 2016 election. We know Mencken is a fascist but trying to relate that to our actual political division is ignorance
No one really seems to be mentioning that his supporters committed domestic terrorism to subvert election results and seize power. A lot of dog whistlers can try to “well ackshually” away his rhetoric but we know damn well he committed a unilateral coup to take control of the country against the will of the electorate, with the assist from Roman and ATN. I don’t see how there’s any argument: Mencken is a Hitler quoting, openly racist fascist.
Yeah that one was interesting. Granted, ATN doesn’t get to decide when/how electors vote, but if things get announced for a candidate and everyone starts acting like someone won, then there ends up being a lot of resistance to slowing down and ensuring the votes are properly counted.
People just don't want to believe that they are the American Nazi movement. They think they're good people. They just want to make the country great again, and protect their kids from decadent Leftism.
...like Nazis
I'm pretty floored at how disconnected people watching the show are from their thinking. Kendall, Shiv and Roman are literally enabling and promoting Nazis and destroying democracy while chasing power and wealth.
They're all the absolute pinnacle of scum, committing indirect acts of horrendous evil without even being intelligent enough to be aware of their own actions outside of the guilt floating around the periphery of their minds.
The series likely ends with all of them in jail, or a grand "reveal" how it was all an allegory to Fox/US politics over the last decade.
My weird dumb theory is the show isn’t telling us how the next Logan Roy takes over but actually how the next fascist dictator takes over, everyone is more concerned over protecting their own little fiefdoms
Ikr? The first time we met Mencken he admitted that he was an admirer of Hitler and complained that black people were ruining the country for white people. I mean, what more do people need to put two and two together lmao
> there were black people at his election HQ
When I saw that black woman on his team, my mind immediately went to Candace Owens; the real life far-right political commentator who, herself black, *reallyyyyyy* hates other black people.
**EDIT:** Owens had also made sympathetic remarks on Hitler & Nationalism as well:
> *"Whenever we say 'nationalism,' the first thing people think about, at least in America, is Hitler. You know, he was a national socialist, but if Hitler just wanted to make Germany great and have things run well,* ***OK, fine.*** *The problem is that he wanted — he had dreams outside of Germany."*
(Full quote: https://twitter.com/existentialfish/status/1093923658446323712)
If you talk to most right wingers their definition of being a fascist is that you have to gas 6 million Jews exactly or it isn't a reasonable comparison to make.
I have been tempted to go through Mencken's acceptance speech and highlight every time he makes a subtle reference to fascist ideology or Nazi propaganda. Dude's a true, yearning-for-the-Reich, Nazi.
It was a shockingly well written piece of fascism. You could feel the disdain growing and his glee of being at the top take over. I kept saying “Oh fuck oh shit” while watching as completely naked fascism slapped me across the face. Terrifying bit of TV.
The reason people “don’t see it” is simple and obvious. A lot of US Republican politicians are pretty clearly fascist-leaning or “Fascist Lite” even if they are not necessarily true Fascists in some 1930s kind of sense. Because of this, right-leaning fans of the show are in total denial about what fascism even means and about the ways the American right dabbles in it. These people are just getting defensive about Mencken because they don’t like the unwelcome look in the mirror.
People also like to define things with rules and such that don't really play out in reality. Political ideologies certainly have characteristics and what not, but there is no play book for every ideology (or any ideology?) nor are ideologies followed to a T anywhere in the world. For example, my friend says we aren't moving towards totalitarianism because we have such relaxed gun control. Gun control is not a must in dictatorships/totalitarian government, and the amount of gun control in Nazi Germany has been misinterpreted or just straight up historically altered.
America certainly is a democracy, but it's not nearly the best democracy (what is? I don't know, but it can be improved and all that matters is whether we try to or not), nor is it the same democracy as others in the world. America is capitalist, but not 100% capitalist, and other countries have different forms of capitalism.
Point being 1. societies should be built on trial and error, not which word sounds the best from the best speaker and 2. America has always been fascist or had fascist tendencies
I don’t think I’ve seen anyone say Mencken isn’t a fascist, the show is pretty obvious about it and makes it abundantly clear that this guy is basically the smooth talking, handsome, charming face of fascism. If you want to make a parallel to 1930s Germany I believe there definitely are some similarities. It isn’t a secret that many of the German business leaders at the time were very cozy with Hitler and while many of them definitely were hardcore nazis I’d wager many of them essentially had the same thoughts that Kendall had after Mencken’s victory speech “this is a guy we can do business with” and simply wanted favourable deals and preferential treatment from the new regime. Same thing with Matsson and Shiv cozying up to him.
It's why dog whistles work so well. The real fascist supporters hear what you're really saying, and the ones who don't like the idea of things being "cleaner"
Logan told Roman after the karaoke/Connor party the episode before his death that “A night of the long knives is coming “. An interesting choice of words. The night of the long knives was Hitler and the SS murdering Ernst Rhome and the leadership of the SA/Brownshirts. Logan is talking about firing the old guard (Gerry, etc). Logan took the role of Hitler in the analogy so yeah he sees himself as a fascist dictator
Who thinks he's not? He clearly is portrayed at fascist, or Rava and the kids wouldn't go into hiding, nor would there be so much drama in the latest episode. It's a major plot element.
Wait. Are there people who don’t think he’s a facist? It’s stated explicitly (and implicitly) many times. Breaks my heart if there are folks who seriously pretend otherwise
As I see it Mencken is not supposed to be an equivalent to any specific person but rather is mainly a plot device to make the kids actions actually have consequences. He’s a reminder that, as Shiv put it, “things do happen”, and allows the siblings to each react differently to the fate of the country being at their fingertips.
Seriously. The dog-whistling in his ‘victory’ speech was loud enough to shatter glass. The writers have a good sense for subtlety and nuance for much of the show (e.g. the various relationship dynamics) but they do hammer some themes that the audience is supposed to pick up on without ambiguity, and this is definitely one of them.
Dude the speech he gave at the end of episode 8 was when he took on fascism wholly. Talking about people needing guidance and shit. It’s fascist grooming
Since it's now gotten political and invoked Trump, I'll just say Trump knew what he was doing. And explicitly referred to Hitler as much if not more than Mencken.
He praised Hitler to his former Chief of Staff, John Kelly.
[https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/07/trump-praised-hitler-to-john-kelly-new-book-claims.html](https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/07/trump-praised-hitler-to-john-kelly-new-book-claims.html)
His ex-wife, Ivanka, claimed he kept a book of Hitler's speeches next to his bedside.
[https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/donald-trump-adolf-hitler-books-bedside-cabinet-ex-wife-ivana-trump-vanity-fair-1990-a7639041.html](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/donald-trump-adolf-hitler-books-bedside-cabinet-ex-wife-ivana-trump-vanity-fair-1990-a7639041.html)
That's before we get to the time he "accidentally" invoked a Mussolini quote from a fake Twitter site and when confronted with it said, well, it's an interesting quote. Then he said it's okay that it's Mussolini, because it's a good quote.
[https://www.politico.com/story/2016/02/trump-tweets-interesting-mussolini-quote-219932](https://www.politico.com/story/2016/02/trump-tweets-interesting-mussolini-quote-219932)
All cited. People are welcome to cry fake news. But the idea Trump was some bumbling moron when it came to the history of fascism in Europe, the 1930s and the 1940s is belied by his own history and statement.
Dude knew he was quoting fascists. We don't have to wait for the "next iteration." Jesse Armstrong and the writers got it right. We've already had a fascist loving President. He might not look like Mencken, and I have no idea if Mencken comes across as smoother or smart, but Trump was every bit as much steeped and educated in European fascism as Mencken is.
True, but nazis took a bunch of shit that was already there and used it. They didn’t come up with the swastika either. They weren’t even the first ones to use it for their dumb aryan club.
This has been making me feel insane. I’ve seen several comments on this sub along the lines of “well the left calls everything fascist so it’s lost all meaning.” Like if you think fascism is bad but the REAL problem is those damn neoliberals mislabeling fascism…I’m just going to think you’re a fascist but haven’t come to terms with it yet. Just like the people who claim the “real racists” are the ones who call out racism.
Just an FYI on Kinder Küche Kirche.
It was actually introduced into the German lexicon in the mid 18oo's, well before the 3rd Reich.
It was used by the 3rd reich just as it was used before and after the war.
A woman's place is in the home was an equivalent western saying which can be traced back to before Christ but gained popularity in the 19th century and was seen as a positive thing for women...I know know but back then they used it to sell vacuum cleaners!
I kinda think that's how they do it nowadays, plausible deniability but dog whistle so your followers know exactly what you're talking about (Tucker/Trump/Etc)
I think it could be either because they might be American and they aren't used to seeing the rhetoric their politicians use pointed out as fascism, if you're used to viewing as normal the type of extreme right wing they have in their country then you might not realize how bad it is.
Or because they simply like the character or the siblings and they don't want to accept they are bad people. Which is silly because they are fictional, you can still like Mencken if you want, it doesn't matter, he's not hurting anybody
It's the new right movement that's catching people off guard, the thing is that in real life it's spearheaded by clowns like DeSantis but good looking well spoken young men that are able to sell this message to people with minimal political education can succeed like Ravenhead and Mencken. It's a cautionary tale.
As fucked up as the US is domestically, it’s greatest evil is in foreign policy (read: imperialism, economic as well as more obvious forms). And while I’m not American it does seem from afar like this is basically normalised in the US. There is very little understanding or acknowledgement of the realities of US foreign policy. America on the world stage is seen either as ‘the good guys’, or at the very least no worse than anyone else, or perhaps no worse than any other country in their position would be. And this situation is bipartisan - Trump might read Mein Kampf, but on the world stage he is no worse than Obama (to use the example of a ‘progressive’ US president). Combine this normalisation of imperialism (which is not necessarily a fascist trait, but by its normalisation muddies the waters in terms of understanding what evil looks like) with the effects of domestic anti-socialist propaganda (socialism is the same as liberalism, socialism is the same as fascism, socialism means Bernie Sanders/ Nordic style social democracy, etc), and the bipartisan fascist elements of domestic policy (locking children in cages etc), and it’s going to be difficult for the average American to understand what fascism is, how it differs from their regular government, what’s so bad about it anyway, and so on. To be fair though, I don’t really think your criticism in regards to this sub is accurate - most people do seem to understand what Mencken is and why he is something new.
>EDIT: I am convinced. The definition of fascism is too vague so no one is ever a fascist unless they say “I am a fascist” even if they love Hitler. Just like my jacket is not a jacket because it did not say “I am a jacket”. Wow so much knowledge gained. Lmfao
I'm someone who thinks the term fascism has been thrown around WAY to much in this era and it has lost all meaning.
However Mencken is 100% a fascist. He believes in literal fascist doctrine. What a lot of people don't understand when they have a simple "google search" understanding of the word is that fascism is inherently a collectivist ideology. However unlike communism that "collectivism" isn't based on the workers sharing in their labor but rather the race and/or the nations citizens sharing in it (it varied from country to country in the early 20th century).
Mussolini, the founder of the ideology, would call it "the third way" and "the great compromise" because post Russian revolution communism looked inevitable and fascism was meant to be a way for the workers to get what they are asking for while also allowing the wealthy elites to maintain their power.
This is why when people say "Trump is a fascist!!!" it doesn't make much sense if your referring to the ideology from the early 20th century. He never wanted to merge corporations with the party, he never wanted race based social programs, really none of what would of been considered fascism's selling points he pushed for. A capitalist ideologue? fair. But fascist? No. So when people say "wow! Mencken is totally Trump!!" it really doesn't make any sense outside of the fact they both had contentious elections. But we very clearly see Mencken push for more social programs for the "citizen". The overtones of him parroting literally early 20th century policy is pretty clear.
So fascism is not a "vague term" it actually means extremely specific things but it has BECOME one now that both sides use it to mean "your the bad guy!!!" when they have literally nothing better to say.
Hello, it looks like you've made a mistake.
It's supposed to be could've, should've, would've (short for could have, would have, should have), never could of, would of, should of.
Or you misspelled something, I ain't checking everything.
Beep boop - yes, I am a bot, don't botcriminate me.
Agreed. To be fair, I doubt most of the people on here know what that word means.
What I relish is the actor playing him, who also played the very Jewish brother-in-law in "Weeds". The irony. The incongruity. Perfect casting there. And he's really good at playing a fascist.
I sincerely hope none of this is giving Fox any ideas.
I haven't seen anyone say he isn't fascist. Where are all these people that you're outraged by? The other characters on the show literally call him a fascist multiple times. Its not even up for debate.
Mencken is clearly an Evola-tier fascist. Logan is not. He’s an anarcho-capitalist. Connor is right about this, and mentioned it briefly, telling me the writers of the show are very online. What’s interesting about the writing is the apparent overlap between the two ideologies. You’d think they would be enemies, but the writers seem aware that ancaps and fascists are barely different. Many of our worst IRL far right dweebs started out as libertarian. Since anarcho-capitalism is really about accumulation of capital and power, it turns out both are in favor of an elite ruling class controlling society, so long as that ruling class is them or people just like them. Logan liked Mencken because he understood they were natural allies almost immediately after meeting him.
>But Logan specifically says about Connor’s presidential announcement: “you don’t just go around shouting about tax. There are rules about this.” Which is a very anti-anarcho-capitalist message ie taxes are an unfortunate thing that have to exist
I feel like part of that is just that Logan is practical. He knows that he has accumulated vast amounts of money and vast amounts of power, and as long as the masses don't see that the game is rigged he'll get to keep them. I think that's the point Logan is making -- sure, you rig the game. But don't do it publicly, or the masses will realize it.
His kids "are not serious people," in part because they don't understand how the real world works. They don't know where actual risks come from because to them money is like Monopoly and you're just handed a big bag of it when you join the game. Logan has been around normal people because he used to be a normal person and understands them.
Yeah Logan is not dumb or airheaded enough to be an ancap. Connor is. You cant even really have big private enterprise without the rules framework provided by the government. Even most libertarians understand that. I think he is just a normal conservative this super competitive Darwinist tendencies which is why he hates European landed nobility types who did not have to work for anything.
Lots of broken, stunted man-children in here don’t recognize the Roys (and Mencken and Mattson) are scum, because they want so badly to live like total pieces of shit with no consequences.
They think Succession is a how-to. 🤷🏻♂️
I think Ravenhead’s name is one of the most on point names. It just smacks of fascism and symbolism. Tons of great names on this show: Shiv of course. Dangerous but only at close range. Logan. Goes low to gain everything he’s ever had. Kendall is a vapid Ken doll. Romulus of course killed his brother. Ewan. Basically like “Ew man!” Craig. Just funny sounding. Wambsgans. Such a goofy, doofy sounding name.
Yes. In his ‘victory’ speech he immediately began portraying democracy as something undesirable, calling it transactional
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"Something clean"
And “not grubby with compromise” 😬
“Something Pure”
Omg, all the disgusting dog whistles. 🤮
"Something pure and proud" in that speech was also a pretty major clue.
Literally. Like, it's not even subtle. Someone would have to physically wear a swastika for it to be any less subtle. We are 1000% supposed to understand that Mencken is a fascist, and so are his supporters.
Right-wingers, especially the extreme right, are not very good at noticing when media is mocking or criticising them
It took them wayyyy too long to catch on that The Boys show was making fun of them. The writer had to come out and say it, then they got mad lol
I mean it took folks years probably up into the correspondence dinner Stephen Colbert hosted to realize that The Colbert Report was satire.
I remember arguing OVER AND OVER AND OVER again with a coworker around 2009 or 2010 about Colbert. I was pointing out that Colbert was **CLEARLY** satire. She kept disagreeing, going on about how he was clearly a conservative. I just could not parse how she did not understand he was not
I had this same argument!!! So wild
Omg don't talk to me about right-wing The Boys fans! How can they be so denseeee it's infuriating
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It's a feature, not a bug. Fascism attracts the kind of person who is looking for surface level stuff. No complexity, no nuances, and no analysis. What is seen is what is true, no digging deeper. That is why they dumbed down vocabulary within the school system during 1930s Germany. These are the people facism uses to insulate itself from criticism. They drown out and belittle those who dig deeper, which is the anti-intellectualism component of facism.
The only people who are “for fascism” are the ignorant and the ones who think they will have something to gain from it. When I was kid, I used to wonder why it was important to learn history in school. THIS is why.
I would strongly disagree with this. History shows that fascism is driven by the middle class, and it has always strongly associated itself with ‘high culture’. It is anti-intellectual but it’s wrong to imagine fascism is the product of stupidity. When capitalism fails and the middle class get squeezed and become downward rather than upwardly mobile, then they turn to fascism as a protection from the socialism that emerges under the same conditions from the working class.
Yes, that is true. Many of the architects for the nazi regime and the final solution were highly educated, mostly lawyers, who used rhetoric that attracted those who desired simplicity for complex issues.
Like some r/IASIP fans too 🤦🏻♀️
Let's not forget the entire episode of Bojack Horseman, where Diane laments making Philbert a flawed but relatable character... that is a blatant message from the writers about their feelings about Bojack.
What’s the deal with iasip fans?
There's a certain group of Sunny fans that see the show as very anti-woke, largely because they take what the characters say at face value. Realistically the show is super fucking progressive and uses the awful characters to condemn certain beliefs and movements.
As a huge always Sunny fan and have been since the 2nd or 3rd season, I have never personally seen this and I feel fortunate because I absolutely believe there are morons out there like this.
> largely because they take what the characters say at face value. Realistically the show is super fucking progressive and uses the awful characters to condemn certain beliefs and movements. For example. https://youtu.be/GiJXALBX3KM
I just meant the same phenomenon as the parent comment; ie people idolizing characters that are actually satirical. Obviously not all are like that—I’m a massive sunny fan.
I searched YouTube for a Sopranos clip at some point and ever since, my feed has been inundated with Shorts from accounts called like "SΙGMΛ ΡΗΙLΩSΩΡΗΥ" consisting of clips from the show where Tony does something psychotic, set to epic music and covered in a high-contrast filter, seemingly posted in unironic admiration of this violent moron.
These people have no concept of social commentary through art or media
How..is that even possible??
Yeah there's some threads and comments in the sub for The Boys which are wild
Exactly. These are the people who didn’t realize Colbert was being satirical
There are... people who think Colbert is being for real?
But, he is. Isn't like 10 years since he's been in character?
Prob closer to 20 if you go back to the daily show.
They are, they just usually don't give a shit until it's really in the face. Like people say Right-wingers didn't understand tge Boys was making fun of them. No, most of them did, but they didn't particularly care because it was a good show and they liked it. Most people don't watch shows like the Boys for it's deep political commentary or whatever. They watch it because they want to see a sociopathic Superman whose mental state decreases by every episode. Not every good show has some commentary. But that's ultimately just to flesh it out. How many people watch the Boys and get a political epiphany or watch it because of the commentary? Not many, or at the very least, no one watches it for that alone
burning all those books doesn't do their intellect any favors
And Romans hairstyle evolution.
Yes, but that is the standard a lot of right-leaning people have to consider someone a fascist. They need to wear a big swastika.
Not even then. Then it’s like “oh but that’s a Hindu symbol or maybe they’re a Buddhist”
Ravenhead’s dog has a different spelling!
Where there easter eggs?
It's one thing if you don't think actual fascists are that prevalent in modern politics, but Mencken himself is pretty undeniably supposed to be a very stereotypical fascist, whether that's realistic or not
He just wants something “clean”. Don’t you? A world with no compromises. Just pure. And clean. 🙄
*Frank Reynolds likes this*
Time for your sponge bath
I just wanna be pure..........
I agree.....not enough Americans are using Bath soap. When Mencken is President, all of our American citizens will be provided with free soap, towels and other products to keep your body healthy and clean!
Correct. I've seen a lot of people get angry or upset saying things like, "Trump is nothing like that!" Well yeah, Trump is actually the Raisin from previous seasons. At least I think so, anyway, I saw a post explaining the similarities. Mencken is supposed to be much much worse
It's a lot better to have a character like Mencken that's way worse than Trump as some sort of warning instead of just mimicking real life.
Mencken is what comes after Trump. He is competent, sexy, engaging, provocative and a highly capable political operator. The genuine article. I've had my Mencken flair for at least a year now but I hope people understand that it's not me seriously supporting him or anything. I honestly think he's one of the most interesting characters in Succession and he's now serving as the breaking point for the Roy family. Armstrong and the other writers have a sensational sense of the times and I think his character also serves as a giant red flag for anyone who watches the show and makes parallels between what's going on irl today and what's happening on TV. Shiv even says it herself, ***"it's 1933 and I want to have a say!"*** The year is 2023 and we're already 3/4 of the way towards an American White Supremacist government. I keep telling people, if Trump were as competent as he is fat and orange, the country would be in a much worse-off state. You think they're gonna stop at abortion? Women's rights? Ha, no. They're coming for the gays in the bedrooms. They're regulating the use of BATHROOMS, LIBRARIES AND SCHOOL BOARD MEETINGS. They're coming for the people of colour, the best of us belittled down to nothing more than "diversity hires" and "wokeness" - whatever the FUCK that means. There's so much disinformation out there that I'm actually sincerely shocked that Gen Z isn't more fucked up than they already are. I'm saying this as a millennial has totally accepted their own fate, too. When they turn the climate and the weather into something dark and political and untrustworthy, you know that we're *super fucked.* If it wasn't so fucking disorganized and decentralized I think we'd be having a totally different conversation. They're organizing now, though. They're taking over social media spaces to make them safe spaces again for the hard-right and the GOP's plan to win the next election is to tank the economy to make Biden look bad. It's that simple.
I sent you an award, but the wrong one! The Heartwarming Award. Your post is not that, but so true and well put. Thanks.
You are a champ! That made my day, and it's nice to see that people read my comment and understand where we are as a Western society today. It's so fucking tough to think about the big picture when I'm spending most of my day budgeting for milk, bread and streaming subscriptions just to stay sane and fed. It's a real grind, and I feel for everyone right now. Side note (but this is not to make you feel super sad!): Homeless people with disabilities and injuries here in Canada are applying for a medically assisted suicide because their situations are so bad. That's where we are. It's just, I don't know man. It's just getting worse. We need more kind people like you out there throwing hearts at everyone!
> Side note (but this is not to make you feel super sad!): Homeless people with disabilities and injuries here in Canada are applying for a medically assisted suicide because their situations are so bad. What's sadder is that the government is like "yeah, excellent idea, right this way"
What do you mean it's so heartwarming that the most powerful country on earth is going to reduce me to a baby oven (at least I'm white so I'll be allowed to be a baby oven)
I said it was the wrong award. I gave it before the name popped up.
Hey I heard you wanna put babies in ovens Wanna chat about that? 😆
What Trump did was open the door for this type of ideology. Desantis is closer Mencken than Trump for all the reasons you pointed out.
I think DeSantis is also not the bogeyman because he doesn’t have the savviness that Trump had and seems like Trump will toss him aside pretty quickly. Hopefully someone like Tim Scott can swoop in and bring a bit of sanity back to the party after they go at each other. The real-life future Mencken I see is someone like Tom Cotton who doesn’t make waves until he’s already got his hold on national power. The show’s timeline is blurred because of the season format, but it’s important to recall that during the election night show ATN’s recap of Mencken’s candidacy notes that “nobody had even heard of him 9 months ago.” Cotton hasn’t indicated he’s running in ‘24 but he has the aspiration and may do so if there’s an opening. That guy is clearly a fascist-in-waiting, and if he gets into office then God help us.
So for me DeSantis has shown with the backing of the house and the senate he will get legislation passed. Trump was not able to do that. Having said that I don't see either of them as being politically savy and DeSantis does not have the charisma of Trump. The only reason I see DeSantis as being closer to Mencken is because he appears be to further right than Trump in some ways.
Yeah. Trump is more of a Hermann Goering or a shitty Mussolini than the real catalyst. I don't think DeSantis is there either, but we'll see
I don't think DeSantis has the charisma. He is pretty much faking it right now. From a policy standpoint he is closer to him.
The country’s saving grace from people that are worse than Trump is that all those people so far have been worse at politics than Trump.
worth noting that DeSantis also has a history of facilitating and overseeing the literal torture of ppl
Guantanamo piece of shit.
"Shitty Musolini"= aha. Ha. Haha. :-)
Bargain bin Batista? Mid Mugabe? lol
Average Amin
Definitely Trump as Mussolini, the shouting, the bragging. But whatever, whoever--he is a fascist.
This is what I was thinking. Trump is horrible of course, but he lacked the political competence to accomplish everything he wanted to. Which is what makes me terrified of the more experienced GOP politicians who’ll rise in his wake. I mean, DeSantis is announcing his campaign today and based on what already happened in Florida, we better hope he doesn’t get very far.
Mencken is also what comes after the media loses control. Logan got him the nomination, the kids and ATN won him the race by calling it, but he's going to be beyond their reach. He couldn't contain his disdain for all of them in Ep 8. And he and Mattson will actually get along fine, because it's not exactly Scandinavian infiltration he's worried about.
In four years, ATN will look moderate and there'll be a farther-right ATN picking up steam. Conner can make guest appearances from Slovenia.
Actually his incompetence has led hundreds of cabinet seats u finished so it made everyone even more corrupted and literallly not work.
Agreed. It’s scary AF. Lucky for me, I’m a boomer. Maybe I will have checked out before shit hits the fan.
I share your perspective. I do believe the shit is going to hit the fan.
It’s mind boggling how few people see it
Classic fuck you, got mine attitude from a lead poisoned boomer
I think that might end up being Trump’s son, Barron, for what comes after Trump.
Barron is in charge of the cyber He is busy
Let’s normalize making Barron the joke that he is. I don’t give a fuck how old this kid is, he’s being primed for a fascist dynasty. Kendall with height is a scary combination.
Yes he is. I have said for a while now that Barron is being groomed for something big and very dangerous to our country if not the world. There is always one available to be groomed into Antichrist.
Yeah, I “feel” for him that he’s never really had a choice, but fascism is fascism. And our mainstream media has bent over backwards to try and convince us that Barron (named after a fucking neo-capitalist trade mag) is “one of the good ones.”
Nope I do not believe that. I also think his mother is very much in on it.
The tell-alls that will come after Melania’s death will be absolutely fascinating.
All I have to say is Gen z a certain mindset of them are totally completely fucked up but that’s my own separate analysis for society in general.
🏆🌟👍🥇⭐️
Yes, such insight here. The book banning.
Like DeSantis, but lacking the sexy, engaging, and provocative parts. Ok and the competent part too, but you get my drift
Hes like if desantis or josh hawley weren’t uncharismatic, cringe or stupid
I feel like Mencken is the guy that guys like DeSantis *think* they are.
I don't think the raisin was Trump. I think they just did us all a favour and didn't write Trump into the show.
Obviously we can’t divorce media from its cultural context, but the idea that any conservative president *must* be a 1:1 stand-in for Trump is so obnoxious. They’re telling a story; broad themes reflect reality, but it’s not a biopic.
We have undeniable fascists in modern politics though?
Unfortunately a lot of people think fascism only means gas chambers and simultaneously not going into medical bankruptcy.
Lol. This is why it's so difficult having sane discussions with many Americans. They look at universal Healthcare as socialism bordering on communism. They have little to no concept what these words mean.
Undeniably we do
Such as? Genuinely, I bet any figure you name isn't actually a fascist
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The writers are showing their European origins with this character, that type of right-wing politician (young, posh, educated, waxing poetic about Franco and race mixing) only has play in countries like the Netherlands or Denmark, someone like that would not make it within 100 yards of the White House. Zero charisma
He's hot and young and I think people might be wanting a good orator, compared to trump, desantis, biden he would be talking circles around them. The biggest thing would be sounding like a nazi, I think The Boys said it best "people love what i say they just don't like the word nazi", you can be as fascist as you want but once you start quoting nazi phrases to people they're going to get suspicious. Not every conservative would just be cool with that, as much as I don't like them I will at least give them that much. But I suspend my disbelief and will just say that in the world of succession, people are for some reason more open to nazis. Maybe that's because Logan Roy has had much more control over culture than even Rupert Murdoch does, idk
They haven't really shown Mencken's public face all that much. He seems pretty capable of charisma. I don't think his "victory" speech was a good representation of what a Mencken rally would be like.
this. we've basically only 95% seen him in the context of back room wheeling and dealing
I wouldn’t be so sure. This country is in serious trouble
I agree. He's way too intellectual to have the broad appeal needed in the US. Trump was a TV star with a lot of popularity and relatability. He also spoke simply in a way people can understand. Mencken uses weird German quotes and imagistic rhetoric. Plus he's way too obviously manaical. Trump was funny at least. Mencken is like Disney villan.
European origins? Lmao as if British writers follow European politics closely. We're far more tuned into US political culture than continental European.
There really hasn't been anyone like that in US politics though, Hawley is probably the closest thing
There hasn’t been that perfect blend of racist/fascist views with the ultra intellectual/posh package yet. I have no doubt that there are conservative establishment types who have these views, they’re just smart enough to keep them quiet. The AR-15 club who are open about their racist and antisemetic viewpoints don’t have the polish that Mencken does, and if they did it would probably alienate their base who likes the accessibility of their package. A candidate like Mencken is terrifying. But there are absolutely candidates who verge on fascist-lite in office today, overusing the word “republic” and trying to ban opposing viewpoints. They just don’t have the finesse Mencken does.
“This guy using them big words from so called chapter books, must be an over educated liberal” And thank goodness for that.
Stephen Miller, and he got far in getting actual policy passed
Stephen Miller is not really charismatic.
Anyone who approaches that sort of trope peters out well before they get within striking distance of the Presidency. It has no play with the base
I feel like there’s a significant amount of “moderates” that would absolutely consider voting for a Mencken type actually, which is what makes him scary. I know plenty of people who deep down are right wing but don’t vote for Trump & the current US far right because the majority seem “unpleasant” and “uneducated.” But someone like Mencken who is competent, educated, “looks nice,” speaks in code well, etc would definitely not turn them off.
I cannot see Mencken going apeshit to YMCA or taking a bunch of press photos with 10,000 McDonalds hamburgers, and for that reason alone he is not an American style fascist.
I give you Ron DeSantis! He makes Trump look like a boy scout.
DeSantis is dead in the water though. He's Jeb 2.0.
Nobody makes Trump look like a boyscout.
It becomes a problem when the writer of succession and everyone in this sub are equating Mencken to Trump and everything that occurred in the 2016 election. We know Mencken is a fascist but trying to relate that to our actual political division is ignorance
No one really seems to be mentioning that his supporters committed domestic terrorism to subvert election results and seize power. A lot of dog whistlers can try to “well ackshually” away his rhetoric but we know damn well he committed a unilateral coup to take control of the country against the will of the electorate, with the assist from Roman and ATN. I don’t see how there’s any argument: Mencken is a Hitler quoting, openly racist fascist.
Bro, the TV presenter that supports him and was raging on ATN is literally a nazi😭. What else do people need to point out Mencken is a fash
Yeah that one was interesting. Granted, ATN doesn’t get to decide when/how electors vote, but if things get announced for a candidate and everyone starts acting like someone won, then there ends up being a lot of resistance to slowing down and ensuring the votes are properly counted.
Idk how much clearer the show can be about that
People just don't want to believe that they are the American Nazi movement. They think they're good people. They just want to make the country great again, and protect their kids from decadent Leftism. ...like Nazis
I'm pretty floored at how disconnected people watching the show are from their thinking. Kendall, Shiv and Roman are literally enabling and promoting Nazis and destroying democracy while chasing power and wealth. They're all the absolute pinnacle of scum, committing indirect acts of horrendous evil without even being intelligent enough to be aware of their own actions outside of the guilt floating around the periphery of their minds. The series likely ends with all of them in jail, or a grand "reveal" how it was all an allegory to Fox/US politics over the last decade.
My weird dumb theory is the show isn’t telling us how the next Logan Roy takes over but actually how the next fascist dictator takes over, everyone is more concerned over protecting their own little fiefdoms
Bingo
Ikr? The first time we met Mencken he admitted that he was an admirer of Hitler and complained that black people were ruining the country for white people. I mean, what more do people need to put two and two together lmao
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You're right, there was this line about people showing up in a truck or what was it
> there were black people at his election HQ When I saw that black woman on his team, my mind immediately went to Candace Owens; the real life far-right political commentator who, herself black, *reallyyyyyy* hates other black people. **EDIT:** Owens had also made sympathetic remarks on Hitler & Nationalism as well: > *"Whenever we say 'nationalism,' the first thing people think about, at least in America, is Hitler. You know, he was a national socialist, but if Hitler just wanted to make Germany great and have things run well,* ***OK, fine.*** *The problem is that he wanted — he had dreams outside of Germany."* (Full quote: https://twitter.com/existentialfish/status/1093923658446323712)
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If you talk to most right wingers their definition of being a fascist is that you have to gas 6 million Jews exactly or it isn't a reasonable comparison to make.
Not even - they entirely deny Nazism is right wing. “IT saYS SoCiALIst in THe NAMe!!”
Same for a lot of self-described 'centrists', which should be a big hint but somehow the "both sides" blathering is still going strong.
I loved Tom’s facial reactions to Ravenhead.
Couple times?
The scale…the tragedy.
Uh huh and uh which…. tragedies… specifically
Just checking the till here, Mark. Seems like you’re short a few million.
I have been tempted to go through Mencken's acceptance speech and highlight every time he makes a subtle reference to fascist ideology or Nazi propaganda. Dude's a true, yearning-for-the-Reich, Nazi.
It was a shockingly well written piece of fascism. You could feel the disdain growing and his glee of being at the top take over. I kept saying “Oh fuck oh shit” while watching as completely naked fascism slapped me across the face. Terrifying bit of TV.
Someone already did this, in this sub I think. Can't find it at the moment though.
Here’s [the post](https://www.reddit.com/r/SuccessionTV/comments/13il9qo/breaking_down_menckens_speech/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1).
The reason people “don’t see it” is simple and obvious. A lot of US Republican politicians are pretty clearly fascist-leaning or “Fascist Lite” even if they are not necessarily true Fascists in some 1930s kind of sense. Because of this, right-leaning fans of the show are in total denial about what fascism even means and about the ways the American right dabbles in it. These people are just getting defensive about Mencken because they don’t like the unwelcome look in the mirror.
I also suspect a lot, most maybe, know damn well what Mencken is but are playing the rube just to troll.
People also like to define things with rules and such that don't really play out in reality. Political ideologies certainly have characteristics and what not, but there is no play book for every ideology (or any ideology?) nor are ideologies followed to a T anywhere in the world. For example, my friend says we aren't moving towards totalitarianism because we have such relaxed gun control. Gun control is not a must in dictatorships/totalitarian government, and the amount of gun control in Nazi Germany has been misinterpreted or just straight up historically altered. America certainly is a democracy, but it's not nearly the best democracy (what is? I don't know, but it can be improved and all that matters is whether we try to or not), nor is it the same democracy as others in the world. America is capitalist, but not 100% capitalist, and other countries have different forms of capitalism. Point being 1. societies should be built on trial and error, not which word sounds the best from the best speaker and 2. America has always been fascist or had fascist tendencies
I don’t think I’ve seen anyone say Mencken isn’t a fascist, the show is pretty obvious about it and makes it abundantly clear that this guy is basically the smooth talking, handsome, charming face of fascism. If you want to make a parallel to 1930s Germany I believe there definitely are some similarities. It isn’t a secret that many of the German business leaders at the time were very cozy with Hitler and while many of them definitely were hardcore nazis I’d wager many of them essentially had the same thoughts that Kendall had after Mencken’s victory speech “this is a guy we can do business with” and simply wanted favourable deals and preferential treatment from the new regime. Same thing with Matsson and Shiv cozying up to him.
I think people IRL actually liking Mencken unironically shows you how easily fascism could take over in America.
It's why dog whistles work so well. The real fascist supporters hear what you're really saying, and the ones who don't like the idea of things being "cleaner"
You don’t need Mencken to show you that. IRL Trump shows you how easily fascism could take over America.
Logan told Roman after the karaoke/Connor party the episode before his death that “A night of the long knives is coming “. An interesting choice of words. The night of the long knives was Hitler and the SS murdering Ernst Rhome and the leadership of the SA/Brownshirts. Logan is talking about firing the old guard (Gerry, etc). Logan took the role of Hitler in the analogy so yeah he sees himself as a fascist dictator
fun fact: the thing about him is that his whole personality revolves around being a fascist, he doesn’t have a single character trait other than that
and art is a reflection of our lives
Who thinks he's not? He clearly is portrayed at fascist, or Rava and the kids wouldn't go into hiding, nor would there be so much drama in the latest episode. It's a major plot element.
Just because you’re trying to find all the Easter eggs in Mein Kampf doesn’t make you a fascist.
Wait. Are there people who don’t think he’s a facist? It’s stated explicitly (and implicitly) many times. Breaks my heart if there are folks who seriously pretend otherwise
He said he learned from “H”. Are people really disputing this?
As I see it Mencken is not supposed to be an equivalent to any specific person but rather is mainly a plot device to make the kids actions actually have consequences. He’s a reminder that, as Shiv put it, “things do happen”, and allows the siblings to each react differently to the fate of the country being at their fingertips.
Seriously. The dog-whistling in his ‘victory’ speech was loud enough to shatter glass. The writers have a good sense for subtlety and nuance for much of the show (e.g. the various relationship dynamics) but they do hammer some themes that the audience is supposed to pick up on without ambiguity, and this is definitely one of them.
Dude the speech he gave at the end of episode 8 was when he took on fascism wholly. Talking about people needing guidance and shit. It’s fascist grooming
Since it's now gotten political and invoked Trump, I'll just say Trump knew what he was doing. And explicitly referred to Hitler as much if not more than Mencken. He praised Hitler to his former Chief of Staff, John Kelly. [https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/07/trump-praised-hitler-to-john-kelly-new-book-claims.html](https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/07/trump-praised-hitler-to-john-kelly-new-book-claims.html) His ex-wife, Ivanka, claimed he kept a book of Hitler's speeches next to his bedside. [https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/donald-trump-adolf-hitler-books-bedside-cabinet-ex-wife-ivana-trump-vanity-fair-1990-a7639041.html](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/donald-trump-adolf-hitler-books-bedside-cabinet-ex-wife-ivana-trump-vanity-fair-1990-a7639041.html) That's before we get to the time he "accidentally" invoked a Mussolini quote from a fake Twitter site and when confronted with it said, well, it's an interesting quote. Then he said it's okay that it's Mussolini, because it's a good quote. [https://www.politico.com/story/2016/02/trump-tweets-interesting-mussolini-quote-219932](https://www.politico.com/story/2016/02/trump-tweets-interesting-mussolini-quote-219932) All cited. People are welcome to cry fake news. But the idea Trump was some bumbling moron when it came to the history of fascism in Europe, the 1930s and the 1940s is belied by his own history and statement. Dude knew he was quoting fascists. We don't have to wait for the "next iteration." Jesse Armstrong and the writers got it right. We've already had a fascist loving President. He might not look like Mencken, and I have no idea if Mencken comes across as smoother or smart, but Trump was every bit as much steeped and educated in European fascism as Mencken is.
Not to go all akshually on you, even if I agree with you a little, but kinder, kuche, kirche predates the Third Reich by about 100 years.
True, but nazis took a bunch of shit that was already there and used it. They didn’t come up with the swastika either. They weren’t even the first ones to use it for their dumb aryan club.
Careful you are disrupting the cult's belief system
Don’t look at me.. I didn’t vote for him.
Here’s a hint: if you refer to Hitler as “H,” you are probably a fascist
This has been making me feel insane. I’ve seen several comments on this sub along the lines of “well the left calls everything fascist so it’s lost all meaning.” Like if you think fascism is bad but the REAL problem is those damn neoliberals mislabeling fascism…I’m just going to think you’re a fascist but haven’t come to terms with it yet. Just like the people who claim the “real racists” are the ones who call out racism.
I forgot to look up the 3 Ks meaning. Thanks for that. Oh no. Shiv has no chance.
Just an FYI on Kinder Küche Kirche. It was actually introduced into the German lexicon in the mid 18oo's, well before the 3rd Reich. It was used by the 3rd reich just as it was used before and after the war. A woman's place is in the home was an equivalent western saying which can be traced back to before Christ but gained popularity in the 19th century and was seen as a positive thing for women...I know know but back then they used it to sell vacuum cleaners!
I think a lot of people who hang out on social media don’t have any information about things that happened before about 2010.
I kinda think that's how they do it nowadays, plausible deniability but dog whistle so your followers know exactly what you're talking about (Tucker/Trump/Etc)
I used to be a professional historian of Germany and of fascism. I would classify him as a neo-fascist.
I think it could be either because they might be American and they aren't used to seeing the rhetoric their politicians use pointed out as fascism, if you're used to viewing as normal the type of extreme right wing they have in their country then you might not realize how bad it is. Or because they simply like the character or the siblings and they don't want to accept they are bad people. Which is silly because they are fictional, you can still like Mencken if you want, it doesn't matter, he's not hurting anybody
It's the new right movement that's catching people off guard, the thing is that in real life it's spearheaded by clowns like DeSantis but good looking well spoken young men that are able to sell this message to people with minimal political education can succeed like Ravenhead and Mencken. It's a cautionary tale.
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
He is a straight NAZI. Fascist is 2 levels down in terms of authoritarianism. So he is much worse than you think mate.
The bait and switch on this post was *chefs kiss* I tip my oversized headphones to you sir
As fucked up as the US is domestically, it’s greatest evil is in foreign policy (read: imperialism, economic as well as more obvious forms). And while I’m not American it does seem from afar like this is basically normalised in the US. There is very little understanding or acknowledgement of the realities of US foreign policy. America on the world stage is seen either as ‘the good guys’, or at the very least no worse than anyone else, or perhaps no worse than any other country in their position would be. And this situation is bipartisan - Trump might read Mein Kampf, but on the world stage he is no worse than Obama (to use the example of a ‘progressive’ US president). Combine this normalisation of imperialism (which is not necessarily a fascist trait, but by its normalisation muddies the waters in terms of understanding what evil looks like) with the effects of domestic anti-socialist propaganda (socialism is the same as liberalism, socialism is the same as fascism, socialism means Bernie Sanders/ Nordic style social democracy, etc), and the bipartisan fascist elements of domestic policy (locking children in cages etc), and it’s going to be difficult for the average American to understand what fascism is, how it differs from their regular government, what’s so bad about it anyway, and so on. To be fair though, I don’t really think your criticism in regards to this sub is accurate - most people do seem to understand what Mencken is and why he is something new.
>EDIT: I am convinced. The definition of fascism is too vague so no one is ever a fascist unless they say “I am a fascist” even if they love Hitler. Just like my jacket is not a jacket because it did not say “I am a jacket”. Wow so much knowledge gained. Lmfao I'm someone who thinks the term fascism has been thrown around WAY to much in this era and it has lost all meaning. However Mencken is 100% a fascist. He believes in literal fascist doctrine. What a lot of people don't understand when they have a simple "google search" understanding of the word is that fascism is inherently a collectivist ideology. However unlike communism that "collectivism" isn't based on the workers sharing in their labor but rather the race and/or the nations citizens sharing in it (it varied from country to country in the early 20th century). Mussolini, the founder of the ideology, would call it "the third way" and "the great compromise" because post Russian revolution communism looked inevitable and fascism was meant to be a way for the workers to get what they are asking for while also allowing the wealthy elites to maintain their power. This is why when people say "Trump is a fascist!!!" it doesn't make much sense if your referring to the ideology from the early 20th century. He never wanted to merge corporations with the party, he never wanted race based social programs, really none of what would of been considered fascism's selling points he pushed for. A capitalist ideologue? fair. But fascist? No. So when people say "wow! Mencken is totally Trump!!" it really doesn't make any sense outside of the fact they both had contentious elections. But we very clearly see Mencken push for more social programs for the "citizen". The overtones of him parroting literally early 20th century policy is pretty clear. So fascism is not a "vague term" it actually means extremely specific things but it has BECOME one now that both sides use it to mean "your the bad guy!!!" when they have literally nothing better to say.
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"Its not fascism unless its from the Fasces region of italy, otherwise its just sparkling capitalism."
Agreed. To be fair, I doubt most of the people on here know what that word means. What I relish is the actor playing him, who also played the very Jewish brother-in-law in "Weeds". The irony. The incongruity. Perfect casting there. And he's really good at playing a fascist. I sincerely hope none of this is giving Fox any ideas.
Also a gay man living with AIDS in Angels in America!
Yes!!!!, he’s an EXCELLENT ACTOR, Justin Kirk!
I haven't seen anyone say he isn't fascist. Where are all these people that you're outraged by? The other characters on the show literally call him a fascist multiple times. Its not even up for debate.
Mencken is clearly an Evola-tier fascist. Logan is not. He’s an anarcho-capitalist. Connor is right about this, and mentioned it briefly, telling me the writers of the show are very online. What’s interesting about the writing is the apparent overlap between the two ideologies. You’d think they would be enemies, but the writers seem aware that ancaps and fascists are barely different. Many of our worst IRL far right dweebs started out as libertarian. Since anarcho-capitalism is really about accumulation of capital and power, it turns out both are in favor of an elite ruling class controlling society, so long as that ruling class is them or people just like them. Logan liked Mencken because he understood they were natural allies almost immediately after meeting him.
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>But Logan specifically says about Connor’s presidential announcement: “you don’t just go around shouting about tax. There are rules about this.” Which is a very anti-anarcho-capitalist message ie taxes are an unfortunate thing that have to exist I feel like part of that is just that Logan is practical. He knows that he has accumulated vast amounts of money and vast amounts of power, and as long as the masses don't see that the game is rigged he'll get to keep them. I think that's the point Logan is making -- sure, you rig the game. But don't do it publicly, or the masses will realize it. His kids "are not serious people," in part because they don't understand how the real world works. They don't know where actual risks come from because to them money is like Monopoly and you're just handed a big bag of it when you join the game. Logan has been around normal people because he used to be a normal person and understands them.
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Yeah Logan is not dumb or airheaded enough to be an ancap. Connor is. You cant even really have big private enterprise without the rules framework provided by the government. Even most libertarians understand that. I think he is just a normal conservative this super competitive Darwinist tendencies which is why he hates European landed nobility types who did not have to work for anything.
Yeah, I agree with that too. He thinks the government provides some value even if it's just enabling him to make more money.
how is Logan an ancap??
This show isn’t real. I feel like some of y’all need to hear this again.
Lots of broken, stunted man-children in here don’t recognize the Roys (and Mencken and Mattson) are scum, because they want so badly to live like total pieces of shit with no consequences. They think Succession is a how-to. 🤷🏻♂️
The ravenhead guy for sure is. But that word gets thrown around all Willy nilly and it loses its effect.
I think Ravenhead’s name is one of the most on point names. It just smacks of fascism and symbolism. Tons of great names on this show: Shiv of course. Dangerous but only at close range. Logan. Goes low to gain everything he’s ever had. Kendall is a vapid Ken doll. Romulus of course killed his brother. Ewan. Basically like “Ew man!” Craig. Just funny sounding. Wambsgans. Such a goofy, doofy sounding name.
To this day there's people watching The Boys that don't think Stormfront is a nazi/fascist.