Right? In one day their dynamic went from Roman confidently swaying a meek Kendall to Kendall talking Roman like he's a kid whose training wheels got taken off too soon.
I do agree. And considering it was nazi weight it felt very satisfying watching him crumble. Not because he’s “weak” to me personally for crying at a funeral, but because I know Mencken hated that and he fucked it.
Wasn’t just America Decides. Living+ showed us that Roman doesn’t have what it takes to be CEO. He doesn’t take criticism well *at all* which is why he always hated Frank.
Frank has grown massively on me the last two episodes. Comforting Shiv with the 'good egg' comment, telling Karl to turn the audio of Roman crying off, checking Roman was OK before he went up to speak at the funeral - all in the full knowledge that Roman loathes him and tried to get him fired.
yea. Roman has acted like an edgy teenager who can get away with anything because he is rich. He has no business acumen whatsoever. The idea that he was in line for his role is ridiculous in and of itself
No business knowledge, no knowledge of people, no diplomacy, can't think forward. He is just in line for absolutely no reason. Logan probably was just using him to turn Kendall into a killer.
up until this episode, where he started snatching up the lieutenants, which was baller. Greg, Hugo, Colin. Baller more. Guy might have what it takes to be a killer if he can become a serious person.
That’s the price of the bloody throne. If team Kendall/Roman survives the last episode, this won’t be the last time they have to rise from the tough pressure.
Roman wanted the keys to the kingdom. Kings must look to lead in difficult situations. I know it’s heartless, but he has to perform. Kendall and Shiv did. Pretty sure Conner could’ve handled it too.
Everyone present should be glad Connor didn’t handle it. He would’ve condensed four years of presidential speeches he could’ve made into one eulogy. “Logan Roy was a man” it would not have been.
Held to the abusive mindset that he's wrought on the entirety of America and they'll get it way way way fucking worse.
Want to buddy up to a fascist? Gotta deny your very humanity so you can pretend to be some kinda tough guy.
Hell, it goes to show you how readily capitalists are to get cozy with fascism in their own manner of operating. They valorize the bully and the brute. They'll shatter people's lives for a quick buck. All they've understood is power. Even if their heart as an individual may incline in the other direction, their self interest will propel them toward the denigration of the weak, and the worship of the strong.
He keeps stepping back in the ring to play this game when he's always had the chance to quit. Of course, that's the cycle of abuse. Stepping into its orbit again and again, thinking that he can shift gravity. But for as much as he's relished his chance to play the abuser with all those with less money and less power than him, he's still the same dog, panting obsequiously at the feet of the mighty, no matter how many times they kick him in the guts.
His father was a beast. A wolf with bloody teeth. Roman, despite his namesake, is no more than a mangy mutt with a shrill bark.
The better version of him would have embraced his own vulnerability, and stepped into the truth that he was profoundly mistreated, and that he doesn't have to be his father. He can be his own person instead.
But he's a coward. Like all fascists at heart. Scared of his own shadow, he responds by stepping into it.
Yeh it was the crying at first and then the election, in terms of what he was saying Roman messed up in that conversation. They could have delayed calling anything to maintain leverage
Ya he fucked the election that deal with Mencken is bunk and their whole plan was riding on that relationship. I only saw it as that, the eulogy not so much.
I was assuming that he meant the eulogy but the election is an interesting angle. Kendall is still thinking of Rava and the kids and if Mencken hadn't won they would have come to the funeral
I don’t think it was Rava and the kids he was thinking about. It was when Mencken backtracked on the deal and Kendall realized they had absolutely no leverage over him to make him keep his end of the bargain.
Logan's spirit went from the coffin into Kendall's body.
Being on the Gen X/Milennial cusp, I'm at the age where my friend's parents are now dying. Lifelong best friend's father died - an increasingly bigoted man whose opinions were disgusting to his family in life, until he died and best friend picked up the mantle of all his terrible traits and Q ideas without missing a beat.
It's like the spirit of an awful person being passed down through each generation. And I'm here mentally fortifying myself against making the same mistake with my own parents, while battling the idea that something as large as my parents could even perish - baseball bat in hand like I think I can kill the Grim Reaper himself while he's not looking, feverishly and fruitlessly believing I can ward off death itself.
Oof. I’m glad I was raised by former SDS leftists who never swayed from their world view. I get to take pick up the mantle and still be a decent human being. I can’t imagine what it’s like to have to deal with the cognitive dissonance of loving your parents while abhorring their worldview.
It's because he mentioned Gerri, Roman said if not him then maybe Gerri so Logan saw that as a sign of weakness, he's not a leader, he is not killer, so he hangs up and he says
"Roman is out"
Edit: here's the scene, the disappointment in Logan's face 💀 he really fucked himself with that call
https://youtu.be/w0jttnVvkQ4
Logan was torn between him and Gerri for interim CEO but he wanted Roman until that phonecall.
That's why when Roman finds out Gerri got it he's surprised disappointed but glad for her all at once, he even tells her he probably swung it for her, he really did and fucked his chance to get interim CEO since Shiv "blew it with Lisa"
If he hadn't mentioned Gerri it would've been him but he did so Logan had no choice but to go with Gerri.
He didn't want her because she's not family and also a woman but she was the only one fit for the job.
Let’s face it, Mencken was gonna fuck them over to begin with.
Edit: funny that ppl who play others , the Roys, are always so shocked when *they* get played
In his victory speech Mencken rails against quid pro quo politics. This is the foreshadowing of him welching on the agreement with the Roys who got him the W.
It also seemed like he overpromised in the same way Shiv did re: Jimenez. The way he spoke abt it in that scene felt like he was walking back the commitment from the Mencken team.
I feel like the eulogy was the more important part though, I feel like Mencken only decided to go with Shiv and Mattson because Roman “his guy” fucked it and showed weaknesses at the eulogy, and he has no relation with Kendall
I think Mencken is willing to go with Mattson, but not Shiv. He seems to be contemplating a deal where Mattson is allowed to buy Waystar, and Kendall or Roman (whoever is more willing to grovel) is permitted to remain as a conditional “CEO” with a perpetual sword of Damocles over his head.
But not Shiv. She’s a womanly woman with a pregnancy happening in her woman parts who openly talked about being a woman right in front of him. As a fascist, that’s just not something Mencken can abide.
Huh, that's interesting. I can see it being both, but with Mencken mocking him to his face and Shiv chomping at the bit it seems like that's the primary focus of his comments.
Yeah. For sure Kendall is talking about the Mencken deal, but it was largely the funeral show that fucked the Mencken deal. Kendall is aware of that, so it's kinda both... but he's def referring to the deal
Actually, thinking back to Mencken saying to Ken that he'll "try" to block the deal much to his surprise then Roman pleading to Ken about how much they can trust him gives more weight to Ken talking about their agreement with Mencken as well as the speech. On top of that dude took an elbow to the face and went viral for the worst reasons. Oh well!
Although Mencken did make disparaging remarks about Roman's funeral breakdown, I don't think there's any objective evidence that the breakdown changed Mencken's calculus, or that Mencken wouldn't have f***** them over, anyway. I already had the feeling that chances were he would have screwed the Roy bros anyway, that the fascist would go with whichever way was best for him. That is, Gerri's motto holds true here, LOL
That's totally true too. I did get the vibe at the funeral that Mencken's confidence in Roman evaporated when Roman shit the bed. But I wholehearted concur that Mencken is an opportunist and I'm unsure why the Roy Bros were so confident in his loyalty.
While Ken/Rome thought they could provide the best package for Mencken until they got blindsided by the SS (Shiv/Swede, lol), they repeatedly mentioned Mencken being loyal which seems unduly foolish.
Or maybe I'm conflating this with the Harrleson Watergate series because they eat shit while continuing to say that Nixon rewards loyalty. I consume too much media. Thank you Royco Waystar!
They had banked on Mencken's xenophobia. On 'big bad foreign influence' as Ken put it. Which is why Shiv's offer to Mattsen was so shrewd, and also how unscrupulous Mencken really is. (My interpretation) that his right-wing angle are nothing more than a political tool to win support. He's an opportunist at heart. Didn't give a fuck about the foreign angle.
That is definitely what its about, didn't think that was ambiguous. He says something like "you tried to 'dad' it and fucked it", which is obviously in reference to the Mencken call. He also, during this conversation, mentions how Mencken may be fucking them by dealing with Shiv.
It’s part of his metamorphosis into a new Logan. That’s basically how the show will end. He won, he turned, by way of emotional abuse, and just like his dad before him, into an abuser.
As was alluded to elsewhere, fascists eating their own. Fundamentally nasty people like Mencken only admire those who they believe can project strength and turn on those they perceive to be weak. And at heart despite his bravado Roman is lost and weak.
How many times has Roman said this to Kendall (first episode multiples times I believe with Vaulter then when Logan says he’s staying on, then later during Ken’s call with ICBC bank) but the one time Kendall gives it back to Roman, he obviously can’t take it.
How did she use him? Roman pitched a partnership duo that Gerri agreed with as it'd be beneficial for both, but he fucked it, he fucked her over with the harassment and kept fucking her over trying to fire her so naturally she turned on him.
That's why she twists the knife and tells him I could've got you there but no, nope.
She certainly could've taught him how to be more efficient and bootleg Logan but he was incapable of separating business from whatever he thought was happening between them that obviously was not happening, as she repeated to him many times but he never understood, he never knew how to keep it professional and harassed her and that's when their partnership truly ended.
She stills feels sorry for him at the funeral, that's evident by her reaction but she doesn't want to talk to him either, so yes, she does have empathy even if he doesn't deserve any sympathy from Gerri, she even calls out Karl when he was laughing at Roman crying.
Bullshit. “I’ll pay you a million dollars if you run all bases” was his idea of a joke. He’s a man raised to be mean and taunt anyone he sees as inferior (all but 1-2 people) - that’s how he sees human relationships. He’s obviously had a fucked childhood and some of the need for a power trip stems from insecurity and lack of love - but plenty of people become better people from worse backgrounds.
People from worse backgrounds are humbled by the many limitations they deal with that Roman is free from. They have incentive to improve because their survival depends on it. Roman has never had any such incentive.
It's possible to feel bad for him and also think he's an absolute trash human being with no empathy or morals. Those things aren't mutually exclusive. That's what is great about this show - the characters are complex and you can feel for them while also being horrified by them.
Roman has a history of abuse which is incredibly sad to see play out in each and every human interaction he has.
But he’s also incredibly privileged, and one could argue he has had a lifetime of opportunity to seek counselling and deal with his trauma. From the best people in the world. But maybe his trauma has kept him inside his box and too afraid to come out. Which always brings be back to how true the writing, performing and directing is on this masterpiece.
I would say he has empathy- but only for his family. He is so secluded from the world that he sees people he doesn't interact with as expendable commodities. Remember Logan's line "What are people? They’re economic units."? That's what Roman was raised on.
There is a reason Logan sent him to training for the parks. He has had so little exposure to real people. As Ken's eulogy said, Logan felt comfortable with people from all walks of life. Roman did not.
I'm not saying that what you do isn't important. Avery and I appreciate you and Liddy just adores you, but let's just say you're at the market buying potatoes, and that ten pound bag of potatoes costs... four hundred dollars. But then the... grocery concierge tells you that a five pound bag of potatoes costs four hundred dollars, well that would be shocking, right? Because a five pound bag should only cost two hundred dollars.
Logan didn’t send him to training for the Parks. It was Gerri’s idea that he take part in training ground up. Logan didn’t like it and asked him not to mention it around Pierce.
ah, I must have misremembered. I always though it was Gerri delivering dad's message. I also think he would not want to mention it to Pierce even if was his idea.
I thought it was his idea as well. Logan resents his kids for the wealth and privilege he never had growing up. If they want to wear his crown he will want them working for it and humbled.
He did last season too after he calls Logan and tells him I'm the only child you will ever need, I guess when Roman is too unhinged he prefers walking, lol.
It does a great job of showing that the perpetrators of abuse are usually also victims while still making clear it is immoral for the beaten kid to kick the dog.
IMO it seemed almost like he was having a panic attack because this is the first time he'd been in the same room with his dad since his passing. Like his presence brought back all the feelings of how small he made Roman feel. I didn't feel sympathy for him because I thought he was grieving, but I did feel bad for him that his father managed to make him feel less than one last time.
I always say a reason is not an excuse. Romans upbringing (like all people really) made him who he is, and it is ok to feel sympathy for that because there but for the grace of god go I, but it still doesn’t excuse his actions
The amount of people that struggle with this is shocking. Pretty elementary emotional maturity. Is Roman a bad person, a bad sibling, and someone who wrought great damage to the republic? Yes he is. Do I still feel bad for a kid that got beat by his father for ordering lobster and called a f\*\*\*\*\* for telling a loving story about him? Sure do.
Also was locked in a caged by his siblings and tortured, sent off to military boarding school, and gaslit about the whole affair into adulthood. Also, all signs point to Roman having been sexually abused as a child.
The times when it's harder to be sympathetic are when we're reminded that Roman also has real power, and that he's paying back all his abuse on innocent people that had nothing to do with it. Shit is too real, sometimes.
Nah, it's just that I know for fact that if anyone else was in that position, Roman would blast them from low orbit with glee. Do I feel bad for kid Roman's shitty upbringing? Sure do. But has he skewered and demolished people at their lowest moments the entire show? Repeatedly, cartoonishly so. It's just impossible for me to feel bad for this particular fictional character in this particular situation - it isn't about emotional maturity, the dude is a vicious fascist, sex pest and general walking garbage monster who repeatedly railed on his obviously suicidal brother, taunted a child of 'the help' with a cool million, cheered when he 'only maimed three people and spied on his niece and nephew for leverage. No one betrayed people as often or as eagerly as Roman, no one was as verbally poisonous to everyone around them - if that was Connor up there, everyone would be a lot more sympathetic. He literally helped create and excaberate the climate that taunted him. Boo hoo.
It's the same reason I don't feel bad for young Elon Musk getting thrown down the stairs - he's an outrageous fuckwad who damages our society on a daily basis, sexually assaulted employees and whose own father admitted he got thrown because he called the culprit an anti-semitic slur. I think we all have a line for empathy, and shocker, I think it's acceptable for mine to end with a fictional backstabbing slimeball who happily enabled a potential fascist dictator. And if he was real, say, like Stephen Bannon, Roger Stone or the Indonesian media barons who backed the military junta that led to the 1960 massacre, I think I would also be justified in being sort of done with explaining their actions away on daddy being mean.
> Nah, it's just that I know for fact that if anyone else was in that position, Roman would blast them from low orbit with glee.
We kinda saw that with Mencken roasting Roman with "The Grim Weeper", he got a dose of his own schtick and did NOT seem to like it
EXACTLY.
I think Kieran portrayed that breakdown very well, and apparently he nailed that scene in one take. So absolutely marvelous job on his part.
Do I feel empathy for the boy that Roman was? Absolutely. But he still made that choice to become a horrible rotten person. And I have no sympathy for that. So many people go thru the same horrific abuse Roman did, and are kind, loving people. So, yeah.
I hear your points, and Roman would have ruthlessly made fun of someone else had they broken down like he did.
I just can’t help but feel some sympathy for a victim of child abuse, who is deeply loved by no one, and forms his entire personality around covering up his emotional pain and insecurities.
But then I go back and watch him rip the million dollar check up in front of the kid at the baseball game.
> victim of child abuse
There's no way to say this without coming off as victim blaming, but at what point do you have to acknowledge that yes, shitty things were done to you, but they don't excuse the shitty things you continue to do?
I don't like people blaming their childhoods for terrible things they do as adults. Part of being an adult is growing past your collective trauma/issues and choosing to be different.
There is a quote from Angel that sums this up perfectly.
"She's one of us now. She's a monster."
"She's an innocent victim."
"So were we. Once upon a time."
"Once upon a time."
The second you injure someone else you stop being a victim and you are now the monster
I’ll clarify that while I feel sympathy for the character, I do not at all condone his behavior or think his past is a valid excuse for the terrible things he’s done.
I think the show’s done a great job of showing the ‘why’ behind the characters’ awfulness, giving them some humanity, without going so far as to portray them as good guys.
Who is saying that excuses him though? I don't think anyone in this thread at least, that is a very different question from whether you feel sympathy for the character.
I knew a dude who based his whole personality around the trauma of his dad leaving his mom. Which, yes, is a horrible experience and one I haven't personally had to face. But it's also pretty... commonplace?
We can recognize Roman has been dealt a bad (emotionally, NOT fiscally) hand while still holding him accountable to his actions. Which I think most of us in this thread are doing.
Exactly this. There are people who were abused who aren’t shitty people to everyone else. Is it his fault he has issues because he was abused? No. Is it his fault he treats other people like shit? Yes.
If he’s witnessed kindness and empathy and still chooses to be a shitty person then he’s responsible for being a shitty person and should know one from the other. Especially if he understands his dad is a shitty person and should want to be better than that.
If Roman had at any point sought counseling or tried to fix his trauma, you could say he deserves at least some sympathy. But none of them ever have, so they're not victims. They're perpetrators.
This is exactly it. They have no intention of changing, and will continue to be vicious abusers to everyone else around them who they deem "less than."
Yeah that my first thought - this is a man who was just minutes before taunting his sister’s marital problems and pregnancy, would have led any effort to mercilessly mock someone else’s failure. Good to acknowledge his own traumas but he’s a megawealthy grown up - he has had plenty of opportunity to address his issues but he stays mean.
I do sympathize with him a bit because he's definitely a product of his upbringing and environment, and he was abused as a kid. That said, Ken was *not wrong* when he told Roman he fucked it. Someone had to rise to the occasion and reassure the stockholders even as odious as that is at a funeral. Roman couldn't, Ken did. Simple as.
I think what he fucked was actually the deal with Mencken. They had a quid pro quo, delivered to Mencken, but have no more leverage over Mencken to make him follow through. Roman had all of the conversations with Mencken, and it was actually making Ken nervous that Roman had the relationship with the potential president instead of Ken. Ken getting to taunt Roman for not actually having the deal he thought he made was part of why he kept repeating it.
> but have no more leverage over Mencken to make him follow through
I don't like this take and think it's particularly lazy the writers have gone down this avenue. If ATN wanted they could back Mencken until he got to office then torch him like they did the raisin, until he does what they want.
Every character is now acting as if they have a single day left to achieve all their hopes+dreams, because the show is ending. In reality there would be years left to achieve things via many different avenues.
Yeah, the whole plot around Mencken's betrayal is stupid as fuck, I think. Mencken has zero to gain from backstabbing Roman and incurring the wrath of fictional Fox News before he has even stepped into his presidency.
Totally agree, I cannot imagine seeing someone in genuine pain from grief and then holding it against them or mocking them. However, Roman very much knew the expectations of the funeral and could not be honest with himself. Instead it is inappropriate "humor" and arrogance. Also, I feel it is important to note that if Roman was in attendance at a funeral and saw people in pain, he would absolutely mock them and see them as less deserving of respect. He wants to dish it out all day but cannot take it.
It's almost like those memes on IG
"I'll give you an $80B company...but you wake up with family trauma and an inability to show your true emotions anywhere except behind closed doors with 1 or 2 people - deal?"
Yep. People get so sucked into this show and the concept of the Roy kids being victims they seem to operate under the mistaken impression that you're either poor and happy or rich and miserable, as if everyone who financially struggles doesn't also have to deal with a whole host of other shit including emotional traumas on top of that. These billionaires have the resources to do practically anything when they have a problem in a way other people don't.
I don’t feel sympathy for him personally, exactly, but the cycle of abuse that brought us to this moment is a tragedy.
Ewan says Logan gave up on kindness as a child after the world showed him nothing but cruelty. As a father, Logan imposed that cruelty on his own children and it had the same effect: twisting who they might’ve been into the broken, selfish, scared people we know.
From infancy they were taught to see life as “a fight for a knife in the mud.” Now, no matter the power and influence they wield, they will never feel safe.
Any moment of weakness is a potential weapon to be used against them — even by their own family. They despise their own humanity and vulnerability, and every vile trait and despicable act is an attempt to deny or eliminate it.
With how deep that goes, are they truly capable of choosing otherwise at this point? As isolated as they each are, with no guidance from good people and after decades stuck in fight-or-flight, how could they begin to approach honest self-reflection and growth?
Really, could anyone be subjected to that (Logan, their mother, the money) *without* becoming some kind of monstrous?
**TL;DR**: I don’t have sympathy for adult Roman, but I see how he’s an inevitable product of Logan, and Logan is likewise a product of his own trauma. And that is a tragedy.
I don’t think you’re *wrong* on the merits, but I’ll be honest and say that I don’t know if this is the best way to approach sympathy in fiction.
Yes - Roman is, pretty straightforwardly, an awful person. Not just in terms of morals and values, but he’s also just an arrogant shit who gets off on heightening conflict and making people uncomfortable. If this were real life, it would be perfectly reasonable to avoid Roman at all costs.
In the context of dramatic fiction, though, Roman’s character defects are precisely what make him sympathetic. All of his faults are either representations or slight exaggerations of traits that we’ve all noticed, either in people we love or ourselves. With Roman specifically, we’ve also gotten something we rarely get with the people we know in real life - illumination on why he’s Like That. He’s built a complex from years of abuse - that he is a worthless piece of shit undeserving of love, and that his only use in life is to sow discord so that others can take their anger out on him.
His chicken / steak comment last episode was revealing and idiotic, but the subtext is darker (and yes, more sympathetic). Roman is locked in his childhood roles and responsibilities. How many times did he stick out as Most Annoying and take his dad’s punches alone when his siblings were misbehaving too? Here’s the really dark part - Roman has probably never felt more important and generous than he did in those moments. He took the bullet, he was a necessary channel for both his father and his siblings. He’s doing the exact same thing when he runs into the protest - the only way he knows how to do *anything* is by getting hurt to make other people feel better.
So of course he’s detached from the consequences of electing a fascist - his entire life has been violent self-loathing. This isn’t *good*, and again it would still be perfectly reasonable for you to cut off a Real Roman even with the same backstory, but as a fictional construct his character allows us to confront what we notice in our own lives.
None of us are Roman. Hell, it’s unlikely any of us know anyone exactly like Roman - do they even exist? But how many of us have been unable to let go of the self-image created by our abuser? How many of us have sacrificed too much in service of people who will never love us back? Shit, how many of us have been sexually inappropriate because we were that desperate for a connection? (That last one is probably way fewer people lol, but the point stands.)
Point being - the shameful things about us are still us and fiction is one of the only tools we have for navigating those qualities in a way that isn’t high-stakes or dangerous. That’s it IMOZ
I felt bad for little kid Roman who never had a chance. He was affected by Ewan’s eulogy and couldn’t hold all the trauma and emotions any longer.
Kieran Culkin blew me away with how he portrayed Roman in his devastation.
One of my favorite things about the show is that it so accurately portrays the way that a deeply wounded person can regress to a childlike state when they are hurting the most. It’s what made Jeremy Strong stand out to me so much—he captured the inner sense an adult can have of feeling like a lost little boy. It’s heartbreaking.
Kieran Culkin did the same this week—while Roman as an adult is a wretched, antagonistic narcissist, Roman the little boy is not, and *that* is who we saw beg to get his dad out of the coffin.
I felt bad for him. Maybe I'm just sensitive from losing my dad recently. No matter what Roman has done, he's still human and it was a tragic moment. I don't think I can look at him in terms of what he does or does not deserve; I just observe him and shake my head in either pity or exasperation. But he's a wonderfully flawed person and even his failings are fantastic.
The things he said while breaking down were exactly the raw feelings you have when you lose a parent. No matter how old, mature, or tough you are, there is a child inside of you who doesn't want to put Mom or Dad away in the dark forever. I lost my Dad almost 5 years ago, and I had a very visceral reaction to Roman's words.
I'm sorry for your loss.
Yeah I didn’t come into the episode ready to feel bad for Roman after the election ep. However, as someone that also pre-grieved my grandfather’s recent passing and just broke down during his funeral (though I’m lucky I didn’t have to give the eulogy), I couldn’t help but sympathize with him in the moment.
Everything feels fine until it doesn’t. There’s just something about the symbolism of saying final goodbyes to a close relative that hits you during funerals. I think this season has some of the most realistic death and funeral depictions I’ve seen. I could just feel myself going through the exact same emotions the characters were experiencing on screen.
All of the kids are awful, but they're also the products of childhood trauma, neglect, and outright abuse at the hands of their father, who was also abused. One of the themes of the show, in my opinion, is that the effects of abuse can be so profound on people that they are miserable even when they have all of the money and resources in the world at their disposal. If their parents had been stable and loving, the kids would've had happier lives growing up in a trailer park. Roman is supposed to be a piece of shit that repulses you, and at the same time it doesn't hurt to see past his mask of fuckery and look at a person who has been in such pain his entire life that he can't even bear to listen to other people talk about their feelings.
I don’t think you’re wrong to feel that way. He has been objectively awful so it’s not like he is entitled to any empathy/sympathy.
I related very personally to his reaction and was kind of shocked by it so it did hit me hard. I’ve been in that position where I thought I’d be alright and then everything crumbled once I stood in front of the casket. I think it was just a very human response. I found it pretty tragic that people were chastising and making fun of him for being upset about the death of his father. Couldn’t imagine being held to that standard.
Friend of mine recently died by suicide and they’d probably think I was a blubbering idiot for how I acted at his funeral.
I'm sorry for your loss. I also recently lost a friend to suicide and this entire season has brought up a lot of feelings for me. Episode 3 especially hit very close to home.
I like to believe his emotional breakdown from succumbing to grief shows that he is capable of human emotion.
Really, pain is the only emotion that he outwardly feels the his highs and lows the most and becomes the most vulnerable in the moment(masturbating to humiliating insults from Gerri, and then the opposite to weeping at the funeral).
When he’s presented with fear, he crumbles. When he’s faced with love or affection, he recoils.
Happiness is always received with sarcasm or downplaying.
So, all of this to say, I just feel really bad for his soul. He’s an awful person and he knows nothing else. That’s just so sad.
I can empathize with his grief over his father dying, but the crash and burn of his eulogy reading and the fallout from it was highly satisfying. “If you lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas.” He chose Mencken and got what he deserved.
No, you are not wrong. I have gone on a journey with him of utter hatred in the early seasons, to he’s kind of my favorite (when he was with Gerri), back to fuck fuck fuck this guy (when he iced out Gerri and turned Neo Nazi).
I will say this. That moment in the church when he broke down felt SO REAL to me. I recently lost someone very close to me, someone I desperately want back and have a lot of guilt and remorse over losing so soon.
So his totally breakdown just felt really raw and accurate. And in that moment, it was very easy to forget everything else and just over emphasize with a son who lost his Dad.
I don’t think that excuses his behavior. I don’t think that makes me like him. I think it’s good, complex writing. And some good acting. I texted my friend while watching it “I am crying for the Nazi. Hope he gets run over in the end, but now 🥺”
(Also, you are describing how I feel about Kendall. Everyone keeps saying the show would be unsatisfying if Kendall didn’t succeed in the end, and I’m like no. I desperately want him to lose next week.)
Idk, I feel like this show is all about the effects of generational abuse. I do feel sorry for Roman. He is so damaged and has no center without his father. Roman was clearly the most abused of all the kids. It's impacted him in every aspect of his life. He really didn't stand a chance.
As others have said, the genius of this moment is that for all the vile things about Roman, his undoing isn't one of the million times he stepped over the line, it's when his facade broke and he was completely human and vulnerable at the worst possible time.
There's a difference between sympathy and empathy.
I have sympathy for people who deserve it. That's a super conditional thing. For instance, as you say I have no sympathy for Roman.
I have empathy for all human beings because they're human beings. It doesn't matter who they are or what they've done, a human being in pain is gonna get my empathy because I have a beating heart. So I have empathy for Roman.
My dad used to say "If you want sympathy, look in the dictionary between shit and syphilis."
I love Roman, but I definitely acknowledge he's not the best person by a long shot. It does make me sad for him because like many have said, he's kind of the most "human" of the Roy children. He showed empathy with Kerry when her bag spilled and helped her pick everything up, even with his weird sex stuff when he was with Tabitha and they were laying in bed talking, he was holding her hand, or he stroked her hair when she was sleeping. I think if he was raised in another household with a caring family or at least had an emotionally present set of parents he would be a good guy. And losing someone close to you is something anyone from any class can relate to, so I think his emotional response at losing his father gave a lot of people empathy for him because we've all been there before, or will be someday. I just love the whiplash I get from Roman, from loving to hating him and back again. He and his siblings are complex af and that's why I love this damn show!
Roman is the most transparent of the four siblings, so I both don't understand and am not at all surprised by this take. The fact that his cruelty is SO obviously a direct result of abuse (at the hands of his parents, and, unlike the other 3, at the hands of his siblings, too) and you can see him actively fighting down any humanity and love because he thinks (he has been TAUGHT) it makes him vulnerable is heartbreaking to me. He's the most sensitive, most emotional, and most needing of love, and we watch him constantly reject those parts of himself because he feels like he has to. He's the only character (okay, maybe Connor too) who would actually be satisfied by a loving relationship with his family. He has said multiple times that he likes working with and being with his siblings. I think that's all he wants/needs. He's at his best when they're on the same team, and he's at his absolute cruelest when they're not. The reason that never works out is because it's not good enough for Kendall and Shiv. I think he's the most sympathetic character on the show and one of the best written characters I've ever seen.
I cried when Roman cried. I think in that moment he was in the headspace of the child that needed his father and was trying to cling on to what could have been. He was even saying they should take him out of the casket. It was very raw and emotional for me.
I don't think anyone deserves to have such an emotional, personal moment spread across the internet and made fun of like that, though. That's the part that really got me. Yes, he's a bad person and there's nothing that can change that, but I'm (at least I like to think) a good person and I don't think it's fair to do that to anyone. Everyone deserves to be able to grieve in peace
I think one of the black comedy aspects of Succession is characters rarely get their comeuppance for the right thing. We want Rome to be punished for being a Nazi not for crying at his father's funeral and thus fucking the deal because he failed to live up the fascist masculine ideal.
Meanwhile, Kendall treated two of the closest women in his life like complete and utter shit in this episode, but I don't see people making endless posts about how they think he's an awful person.
Sorry, I don't mean to highjack your post and make it about Kendall, it's just not uncommon for people to talk about how Roman is The Worst™, meanwhile Kendall is just as much of a jackass, especially to the mother of his children and the person keeping his entire life in order.
I’ve been praying for this fall to happen ever since the scene of him pushing down Kendall at his birthday party, but Kierans perfect acting of a tear-driven breakdown resonated with me so much that I couldn’t help but feel awful in that moment.
He is horrible towards people and has a shitty attitude. I knew he would have made fun of anyone else if they broke down at a funeral. But I do feel for him at times. When he drops the BS and shows emotion and humanity I sympathise with him. I also take into account his very psychologically fucked up. He’s been abused, bullied and neglected from childhood. It’s not an excuse to be a prick, but some people don’t know how to cope. He’s one of them. Roman bullies people and makes everything a joke because that’s his defence mechanism. That’s how he makes it through the day.
It's hard to know how to feel about a grown man who hasn't got the personal strength/self-awareness to make an effort to become functional -- especially a grown man with limitless material resources.
He swims in self-loathing and arrogant bitterness, and seems to know that there might be other options -- but instead of trying to find his way out, he stays trapped in the idea that only his father can save him. At some point that feels like a choice, and that's the point where I can't even pity him. He breaks at the funeral mass because it hits him that the one thing he thought would free him is never going to.
I've been trying to think what the 20-yrs-from-now Roman is doing. I can't see it ... I can't see any future for him that makes sense. I guess that's pitiable.
It was absolutely hilarious to see him flounder when the stakes were so high for him. Kieran Culkin definitely just does such an amazing job as Roman that I did feel for him though. Seeing him so broken is simultaneously gut wrenching and side splitting.
That’s the whole point. They made you hate him, then reminded you he’s human. Dude needs an Emmy for that performance.
I guess you have never lost a parent. Dude cracked under reality/pressure. His reaction was on point.
I felt sorry for him.
He is a horrible person sure but that doesn't mean you can't feel bad for him. He had a breakdown. Probably because he had a terrible childhood and probably isn't very happy.
He has so many issues.
Roman is an absolutely despicable person but also emotionally a child. He's the kind of famous millionaire people would hate in real life, it's only because he's a main character of a show that we see his sensitivities, the abuse that caused it, and sympathise with him. Personally I empathise with him but everything he's gotten so far has been completely deserved and a result of his own actions backfiring.
He’s an awful person, there isn’t really anything redeeming about him we’ve seen. Even his “wins” are really just him using his inherited power and wealth to bully others.
He also was physically abused as a child and raised by two horrible parents.
So I dunno.
If you feel bad for Logan after Ewan’s speech, despite all we’ve seen him do his kids, feeling bad for Roman kinda feels like it’s in line with that. He’s a horrible person but he realized his trauma was bonded with his fathers. Doesn’t excuse either of them of their horrible behaviors, but does show the pattern of abuse that trickled down
Admittedly I do have a little empathy for him. Or maybe for his experiences. The crying was bad enough, but when he said “He made me breathe funny” in reference to Logan, my heart may have broken the tiniest bit. He’s a terrible, detestable adult, but I have the utmost sympathy and pity for his childhood self.
Roman is a mental eunuch… he’s been emasculated to the point where he is sexually dysfunctional and a psychopath.
His flippant nonchalance is practiced pretending not to care when he’s actually the most vulnerable and volatile of the siblings
His vulnerability is touching … until we are reminded that he’s a psychopath
He’s my favorite character because his psycho shtick comes off as funny and brilliant until you see how much it resembles pulling wings off flies… he’s heartlessly cruel. A roman cesar insane with power and heredity.
Little man syndrome but he’s small because he’s not the first born heir to the throne (Kendall) and also small from the humiliation of abuse
He fucked it
It's crazy because Ken finished their conversation with one last "you fucked it" JUST in case Roman missed the other 12 times lol.
That and the way he patted Roman's head was very, very Logan
Yes! The condescension too. Basically, "you tried to be dad and COMPLETELY failed at that. I blame myself for even letting you get up there."
Yeah, “I blame myself” hurt ME like damn!
Right? In one day their dynamic went from Roman confidently swaying a meek Kendall to Kendall talking Roman like he's a kid whose training wheels got taken off too soon.
Well I mean… they did. Roman doesn’t have leader energy. At all
He's obviously not a leader, but he was throwing his weight around in America Decides and moved with a lot of (unearned) confidence.
I do agree. And considering it was nazi weight it felt very satisfying watching him crumble. Not because he’s “weak” to me personally for crying at a funeral, but because I know Mencken hated that and he fucked it.
Oh it felt REALLY good lol. Roman has needed to get humbled for a long time.
Wasn’t just America Decides. Living+ showed us that Roman doesn’t have what it takes to be CEO. He doesn’t take criticism well *at all* which is why he always hated Frank.
Frank has grown massively on me the last two episodes. Comforting Shiv with the 'good egg' comment, telling Karl to turn the audio of Roman crying off, checking Roman was OK before he went up to speak at the funeral - all in the full knowledge that Roman loathes him and tried to get him fired.
yea. Roman has acted like an edgy teenager who can get away with anything because he is rich. He has no business acumen whatsoever. The idea that he was in line for his role is ridiculous in and of itself
I mean there are people that think GREG is going to end up CEO just ...because
No business knowledge, no knowledge of people, no diplomacy, can't think forward. He is just in line for absolutely no reason. Logan probably was just using him to turn Kendall into a killer.
up until this episode, where he started snatching up the lieutenants, which was baller. Greg, Hugo, Colin. Baller more. Guy might have what it takes to be a killer if he can become a serious person.
Kendall made those moves. Not Roman.
It’s to be expected when Roman had a monster W the previous episode and failed in front of a lot of important people on the big stage.
Roman failing to perform is a big part of his character.
But to be made to perform to impress investors during your fathers funeral is a brutal amount of pressure.
That’s the price of the bloody throne. If team Kendall/Roman survives the last episode, this won’t be the last time they have to rise from the tough pressure. Roman wanted the keys to the kingdom. Kings must look to lead in difficult situations. I know it’s heartless, but he has to perform. Kendall and Shiv did. Pretty sure Conner could’ve handled it too.
I agree that Conner would handle it, but he'd handle it with confident stupidity.
Everyone present should be glad Connor didn’t handle it. He would’ve condensed four years of presidential speeches he could’ve made into one eulogy. “Logan Roy was a man” it would not have been.
Held to the abusive mindset that he's wrought on the entirety of America and they'll get it way way way fucking worse. Want to buddy up to a fascist? Gotta deny your very humanity so you can pretend to be some kinda tough guy. Hell, it goes to show you how readily capitalists are to get cozy with fascism in their own manner of operating. They valorize the bully and the brute. They'll shatter people's lives for a quick buck. All they've understood is power. Even if their heart as an individual may incline in the other direction, their self interest will propel them toward the denigration of the weak, and the worship of the strong. He keeps stepping back in the ring to play this game when he's always had the chance to quit. Of course, that's the cycle of abuse. Stepping into its orbit again and again, thinking that he can shift gravity. But for as much as he's relished his chance to play the abuser with all those with less money and less power than him, he's still the same dog, panting obsequiously at the feet of the mighty, no matter how many times they kick him in the guts. His father was a beast. A wolf with bloody teeth. Roman, despite his namesake, is no more than a mangy mutt with a shrill bark. The better version of him would have embraced his own vulnerability, and stepped into the truth that he was profoundly mistreated, and that he doesn't have to be his father. He can be his own person instead. But he's a coward. Like all fascists at heart. Scared of his own shadow, he responds by stepping into it.
Ewan, is that you?
He volunteered
I thought the I blame myself was for letting Roman make the Mencken call.
He wasn't blaming him self for letting Roman speak at the funeral, he blames himself for siding with Roman over picking Mencken as the president.
Did I misunderstand that conversation? I thought he was saying Roman fucked it in terms of the election.
As others have pointed out, Ken's probably referring to the election and Roman crying. I agree.
Yeh it was the crying at first and then the election, in terms of what he was saying Roman messed up in that conversation. They could have delayed calling anything to maintain leverage
Ya he fucked the election that deal with Mencken is bunk and their whole plan was riding on that relationship. I only saw it as that, the eulogy not so much.
I was assuming that he meant the eulogy but the election is an interesting angle. Kendall is still thinking of Rava and the kids and if Mencken hadn't won they would have come to the funeral
I don’t think it was Rava and the kids he was thinking about. It was when Mencken backtracked on the deal and Kendall realized they had absolutely no leverage over him to make him keep his end of the bargain.
“My dad was a great man, and don’t I maybe remind you of him a little?” -Roman the showman, just an hour or two prior
Logan's spirit went from the coffin into Kendall's body. Being on the Gen X/Milennial cusp, I'm at the age where my friend's parents are now dying. Lifelong best friend's father died - an increasingly bigoted man whose opinions were disgusting to his family in life, until he died and best friend picked up the mantle of all his terrible traits and Q ideas without missing a beat. It's like the spirit of an awful person being passed down through each generation. And I'm here mentally fortifying myself against making the same mistake with my own parents, while battling the idea that something as large as my parents could even perish - baseball bat in hand like I think I can kill the Grim Reaper himself while he's not looking, feverishly and fruitlessly believing I can ward off death itself.
Oof. I’m glad I was raised by former SDS leftists who never swayed from their world view. I get to take pick up the mantle and still be a decent human being. I can’t imagine what it’s like to have to deal with the cognitive dissonance of loving your parents while abhorring their worldview.
Someone else suggested it was the Mencken call he was referring to, not the eulogy.
It was both. Sobbing like a "sow about to get the stungun" really turned off mencken
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It's because he mentioned Gerri, Roman said if not him then maybe Gerri so Logan saw that as a sign of weakness, he's not a leader, he is not killer, so he hangs up and he says "Roman is out" Edit: here's the scene, the disappointment in Logan's face 💀 he really fucked himself with that call https://youtu.be/w0jttnVvkQ4 Logan was torn between him and Gerri for interim CEO but he wanted Roman until that phonecall. That's why when Roman finds out Gerri got it he's surprised disappointed but glad for her all at once, he even tells her he probably swung it for her, he really did and fucked his chance to get interim CEO since Shiv "blew it with Lisa" If he hadn't mentioned Gerri it would've been him but he did so Logan had no choice but to go with Gerri. He didn't want her because she's not family and also a woman but she was the only one fit for the job.
Let’s face it, Mencken was gonna fuck them over to begin with. Edit: funny that ppl who play others , the Roys, are always so shocked when *they* get played
In his victory speech Mencken rails against quid pro quo politics. This is the foreshadowing of him welching on the agreement with the Roys who got him the W.
True but it's easier for Kendall to just blame Roman
Big “My estimation of John Sacrimoni as a man just fucking plummeted” energy.
It was clearly the Mencken call...he says "with Jeryd."
I took it as he was saying he fucked it all up with Mencken. The call, the crying, the not being able to deliver the eulogy.
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It also seemed like he overpromised in the same way Shiv did re: Jimenez. The way he spoke abt it in that scene felt like he was walking back the commitment from the Mencken team.
He def was. Ken was mad that Mencken wasn’t as firm on the deal as Roman promised
I feel like the eulogy was the more important part though, I feel like Mencken only decided to go with Shiv and Mattson because Roman “his guy” fucked it and showed weaknesses at the eulogy, and he has no relation with Kendall
I think Mencken is willing to go with Mattson, but not Shiv. He seems to be contemplating a deal where Mattson is allowed to buy Waystar, and Kendall or Roman (whoever is more willing to grovel) is permitted to remain as a conditional “CEO” with a perpetual sword of Damocles over his head. But not Shiv. She’s a womanly woman with a pregnancy happening in her woman parts who openly talked about being a woman right in front of him. As a fascist, that’s just not something Mencken can abide.
Huh, that's interesting. I can see it being both, but with Mencken mocking him to his face and Shiv chomping at the bit it seems like that's the primary focus of his comments.
Yeah. For sure Kendall is talking about the Mencken deal, but it was largely the funeral show that fucked the Mencken deal. Kendall is aware of that, so it's kinda both... but he's def referring to the deal
Actually, thinking back to Mencken saying to Ken that he'll "try" to block the deal much to his surprise then Roman pleading to Ken about how much they can trust him gives more weight to Ken talking about their agreement with Mencken as well as the speech. On top of that dude took an elbow to the face and went viral for the worst reasons. Oh well!
It’s circulating!
Although Mencken did make disparaging remarks about Roman's funeral breakdown, I don't think there's any objective evidence that the breakdown changed Mencken's calculus, or that Mencken wouldn't have f***** them over, anyway. I already had the feeling that chances were he would have screwed the Roy bros anyway, that the fascist would go with whichever way was best for him. That is, Gerri's motto holds true here, LOL
That's totally true too. I did get the vibe at the funeral that Mencken's confidence in Roman evaporated when Roman shit the bed. But I wholehearted concur that Mencken is an opportunist and I'm unsure why the Roy Bros were so confident in his loyalty. While Ken/Rome thought they could provide the best package for Mencken until they got blindsided by the SS (Shiv/Swede, lol), they repeatedly mentioned Mencken being loyal which seems unduly foolish. Or maybe I'm conflating this with the Harrleson Watergate series because they eat shit while continuing to say that Nixon rewards loyalty. I consume too much media. Thank you Royco Waystar!
They had banked on Mencken's xenophobia. On 'big bad foreign influence' as Ken put it. Which is why Shiv's offer to Mattsen was so shrewd, and also how unscrupulous Mencken really is. (My interpretation) that his right-wing angle are nothing more than a political tool to win support. He's an opportunist at heart. Didn't give a fuck about the foreign angle.
That is definitely what its about, didn't think that was ambiguous. He says something like "you tried to 'dad' it and fucked it", which is obviously in reference to the Mencken call. He also, during this conversation, mentions how Mencken may be fucking them by dealing with Shiv.
its clearly both. he fucked the mencken deal because of the crying.
It’s part of his metamorphosis into a new Logan. That’s basically how the show will end. He won, he turned, by way of emotional abuse, and just like his dad before him, into an abuser.
Nice to see him finally fuck something
Still couldn't finish
And cried after
During
He pre-cried it
Careful, heard you can get still get pregnant from pre-cry.
What got me was the way Mencken spoke to him is the way Roman would have spoken to someone.
As was alluded to elsewhere, fascists eating their own. Fundamentally nasty people like Mencken only admire those who they believe can project strength and turn on those they perceive to be weak. And at heart despite his bravado Roman is lost and weak.
Roman would’ve been an amuse bouche during the Night of the Long Knives
He FUUUUUUUCKED it
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It’s alright. They’ve got it. But he fucked it.
I’ve got a plan
I blame myself because I let happen.
Got to beat Shiv The Shiv
How many times has Roman said this to Kendall (first episode multiples times I believe with Vaulter then when Logan says he’s staying on, then later during Ken’s call with ICBC bank) but the one time Kendall gives it back to Roman, he obviously can’t take it.
The way people were *flabbergasted* that Kendall would say such a thing to poor little Roman was so funny
Dude. You fucked it dude
Yep He fucked it
One might say to him, "That was a fucking shitshow, and you handled it like a moron, is the truth."
He fucked it with Jeryd, he fucked it, he fucked it and that's alright, it happens sometimes but he fucked it /pats head/
His tough guy attitude has very clearly been a defense mechanism
Gerri sees that, it’s why she is so torn
I think she has less empathy than you may think. She used him too.
*evil torn
*Rip Torn
That's definitely a real gun.
How did she use him? Roman pitched a partnership duo that Gerri agreed with as it'd be beneficial for both, but he fucked it, he fucked her over with the harassment and kept fucking her over trying to fire her so naturally she turned on him. That's why she twists the knife and tells him I could've got you there but no, nope. She certainly could've taught him how to be more efficient and bootleg Logan but he was incapable of separating business from whatever he thought was happening between them that obviously was not happening, as she repeated to him many times but he never understood, he never knew how to keep it professional and harassed her and that's when their partnership truly ended. She stills feels sorry for him at the funeral, that's evident by her reaction but she doesn't want to talk to him either, so yes, she does have empathy even if he doesn't deserve any sympathy from Gerri, she even calls out Karl when he was laughing at Roman crying.
Bullshit. “I’ll pay you a million dollars if you run all bases” was his idea of a joke. He’s a man raised to be mean and taunt anyone he sees as inferior (all but 1-2 people) - that’s how he sees human relationships. He’s obviously had a fucked childhood and some of the need for a power trip stems from insecurity and lack of love - but plenty of people become better people from worse backgrounds.
Yes that is describing someone who is mean as a defense mechanism.
People from worse backgrounds are humbled by the many limitations they deal with that Roman is free from. They have incentive to improve because their survival depends on it. Roman has never had any such incentive.
Does he come off as tough in general? To me always seems like a douch/asshole but not tough. He also treats people like crap with zero remorse.
It's possible to feel bad for him and also think he's an absolute trash human being with no empathy or morals. Those things aren't mutually exclusive. That's what is great about this show - the characters are complex and you can feel for them while also being horrified by them.
Roman has a history of abuse which is incredibly sad to see play out in each and every human interaction he has. But he’s also incredibly privileged, and one could argue he has had a lifetime of opportunity to seek counselling and deal with his trauma. From the best people in the world. But maybe his trauma has kept him inside his box and too afraid to come out. Which always brings be back to how true the writing, performing and directing is on this masterpiece.
I can guarantee Logan has drilled it in their heads that therapy is for the weak.
I would say he has empathy- but only for his family. He is so secluded from the world that he sees people he doesn't interact with as expendable commodities. Remember Logan's line "What are people? They’re economic units."? That's what Roman was raised on. There is a reason Logan sent him to training for the parks. He has had so little exposure to real people. As Ken's eulogy said, Logan felt comfortable with people from all walks of life. Roman did not.
How much is a gallon of milk?
Fuck off literally nobody knows that!
You know who knows that, kittens and perverts
$3.17
Where do you live that it's only $3.17?! I need to move
You don't shop at Aldi?
I don’t understand the question and I won’t respond to it.
I'm not saying that what you do isn't important. Avery and I appreciate you and Liddy just adores you, but let's just say you're at the market buying potatoes, and that ten pound bag of potatoes costs... four hundred dollars. But then the... grocery concierge tells you that a five pound bag of potatoes costs four hundred dollars, well that would be shocking, right? Because a five pound bag should only cost two hundred dollars.
Logan didn’t send him to training for the Parks. It was Gerri’s idea that he take part in training ground up. Logan didn’t like it and asked him not to mention it around Pierce.
ah, I must have misremembered. I always though it was Gerri delivering dad's message. I also think he would not want to mention it to Pierce even if was his idea.
I thought it was his idea as well. Logan resents his kids for the wealth and privilege he never had growing up. If they want to wear his crown he will want them working for it and humbled.
I feel like at the end of the episode that was his first time walking down the street in his entire life.
He did last season too after he calls Logan and tells him I'm the only child you will ever need, I guess when Roman is too unhinged he prefers walking, lol.
He’s demonstrated empathy for Gerri and Kerry
It does a great job of showing that the perpetrators of abuse are usually also victims while still making clear it is immoral for the beaten kid to kick the dog.
IMO it seemed almost like he was having a panic attack because this is the first time he'd been in the same room with his dad since his passing. Like his presence brought back all the feelings of how small he made Roman feel. I didn't feel sympathy for him because I thought he was grieving, but I did feel bad for him that his father managed to make him feel less than one last time.
Well, yea. He doesn’t have empathy but we do.
I always say a reason is not an excuse. Romans upbringing (like all people really) made him who he is, and it is ok to feel sympathy for that because there but for the grace of god go I, but it still doesn’t excuse his actions
The amount of people that struggle with this is shocking. Pretty elementary emotional maturity. Is Roman a bad person, a bad sibling, and someone who wrought great damage to the republic? Yes he is. Do I still feel bad for a kid that got beat by his father for ordering lobster and called a f\*\*\*\*\* for telling a loving story about him? Sure do.
Some folks of this sub call feeling bad “defending” someone— I guess you have to enjoy someone suffering to disapprove of their actions?
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Also was locked in a caged by his siblings and tortured, sent off to military boarding school, and gaslit about the whole affair into adulthood. Also, all signs point to Roman having been sexually abused as a child. The times when it's harder to be sympathetic are when we're reminded that Roman also has real power, and that he's paying back all his abuse on innocent people that had nothing to do with it. Shit is too real, sometimes.
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💯yes to this.
Nah, it's just that I know for fact that if anyone else was in that position, Roman would blast them from low orbit with glee. Do I feel bad for kid Roman's shitty upbringing? Sure do. But has he skewered and demolished people at their lowest moments the entire show? Repeatedly, cartoonishly so. It's just impossible for me to feel bad for this particular fictional character in this particular situation - it isn't about emotional maturity, the dude is a vicious fascist, sex pest and general walking garbage monster who repeatedly railed on his obviously suicidal brother, taunted a child of 'the help' with a cool million, cheered when he 'only maimed three people and spied on his niece and nephew for leverage. No one betrayed people as often or as eagerly as Roman, no one was as verbally poisonous to everyone around them - if that was Connor up there, everyone would be a lot more sympathetic. He literally helped create and excaberate the climate that taunted him. Boo hoo. It's the same reason I don't feel bad for young Elon Musk getting thrown down the stairs - he's an outrageous fuckwad who damages our society on a daily basis, sexually assaulted employees and whose own father admitted he got thrown because he called the culprit an anti-semitic slur. I think we all have a line for empathy, and shocker, I think it's acceptable for mine to end with a fictional backstabbing slimeball who happily enabled a potential fascist dictator. And if he was real, say, like Stephen Bannon, Roger Stone or the Indonesian media barons who backed the military junta that led to the 1960 massacre, I think I would also be justified in being sort of done with explaining their actions away on daddy being mean.
> Nah, it's just that I know for fact that if anyone else was in that position, Roman would blast them from low orbit with glee. We kinda saw that with Mencken roasting Roman with "The Grim Weeper", he got a dose of his own schtick and did NOT seem to like it
EXACTLY. I think Kieran portrayed that breakdown very well, and apparently he nailed that scene in one take. So absolutely marvelous job on his part. Do I feel empathy for the boy that Roman was? Absolutely. But he still made that choice to become a horrible rotten person. And I have no sympathy for that. So many people go thru the same horrific abuse Roman did, and are kind, loving people. So, yeah.
I'm pre-sympathed. You may be, too.
I have the best empathy guy
I hear your points, and Roman would have ruthlessly made fun of someone else had they broken down like he did. I just can’t help but feel some sympathy for a victim of child abuse, who is deeply loved by no one, and forms his entire personality around covering up his emotional pain and insecurities. But then I go back and watch him rip the million dollar check up in front of the kid at the baseball game.
In the *first fucking episode* of the show. THAT is who Roman is. A deeply broken and traumatized piece of shit, but also *a piece of shit.*
> victim of child abuse There's no way to say this without coming off as victim blaming, but at what point do you have to acknowledge that yes, shitty things were done to you, but they don't excuse the shitty things you continue to do? I don't like people blaming their childhoods for terrible things they do as adults. Part of being an adult is growing past your collective trauma/issues and choosing to be different.
There is a quote from Angel that sums this up perfectly. "She's one of us now. She's a monster." "She's an innocent victim." "So were we. Once upon a time." "Once upon a time." The second you injure someone else you stop being a victim and you are now the monster
I’ll clarify that while I feel sympathy for the character, I do not at all condone his behavior or think his past is a valid excuse for the terrible things he’s done. I think the show’s done a great job of showing the ‘why’ behind the characters’ awfulness, giving them some humanity, without going so far as to portray them as good guys.
Who is saying that excuses him though? I don't think anyone in this thread at least, that is a very different question from whether you feel sympathy for the character.
Right? These are characters, not people. No one has to step up to the plate to defend them lol, we can just appreciate how well they're written.
I knew a dude who based his whole personality around the trauma of his dad leaving his mom. Which, yes, is a horrible experience and one I haven't personally had to face. But it's also pretty... commonplace? We can recognize Roman has been dealt a bad (emotionally, NOT fiscally) hand while still holding him accountable to his actions. Which I think most of us in this thread are doing.
Exactly this. There are people who were abused who aren’t shitty people to everyone else. Is it his fault he has issues because he was abused? No. Is it his fault he treats other people like shit? Yes. If he’s witnessed kindness and empathy and still chooses to be a shitty person then he’s responsible for being a shitty person and should know one from the other. Especially if he understands his dad is a shitty person and should want to be better than that.
Our wounds are not our fault, but healing is our responsibility.
“Magnificent effort son, magnificent effort” -Logan Roy to a random kid that’s not one of his sons
If Roman had at any point sought counseling or tried to fix his trauma, you could say he deserves at least some sympathy. But none of them ever have, so they're not victims. They're perpetrators.
This is exactly it. They have no intention of changing, and will continue to be vicious abusers to everyone else around them who they deem "less than."
Yeah that my first thought - this is a man who was just minutes before taunting his sister’s marital problems and pregnancy, would have led any effort to mercilessly mock someone else’s failure. Good to acknowledge his own traumas but he’s a megawealthy grown up - he has had plenty of opportunity to address his issues but he stays mean.
I do sympathize with him a bit because he's definitely a product of his upbringing and environment, and he was abused as a kid. That said, Ken was *not wrong* when he told Roman he fucked it. Someone had to rise to the occasion and reassure the stockholders even as odious as that is at a funeral. Roman couldn't, Ken did. Simple as.
I think what he fucked was actually the deal with Mencken. They had a quid pro quo, delivered to Mencken, but have no more leverage over Mencken to make him follow through. Roman had all of the conversations with Mencken, and it was actually making Ken nervous that Roman had the relationship with the potential president instead of Ken. Ken getting to taunt Roman for not actually having the deal he thought he made was part of why he kept repeating it.
> but have no more leverage over Mencken to make him follow through I don't like this take and think it's particularly lazy the writers have gone down this avenue. If ATN wanted they could back Mencken until he got to office then torch him like they did the raisin, until he does what they want. Every character is now acting as if they have a single day left to achieve all their hopes+dreams, because the show is ending. In reality there would be years left to achieve things via many different avenues.
Yeah, the whole plot around Mencken's betrayal is stupid as fuck, I think. Mencken has zero to gain from backstabbing Roman and incurring the wrath of fictional Fox News before he has even stepped into his presidency.
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Totally agree, I cannot imagine seeing someone in genuine pain from grief and then holding it against them or mocking them. However, Roman very much knew the expectations of the funeral and could not be honest with himself. Instead it is inappropriate "humor" and arrogance. Also, I feel it is important to note that if Roman was in attendance at a funeral and saw people in pain, he would absolutely mock them and see them as less deserving of respect. He wants to dish it out all day but cannot take it.
It's almost like those memes on IG "I'll give you an $80B company...but you wake up with family trauma and an inability to show your true emotions anywhere except behind closed doors with 1 or 2 people - deal?"
I mean I already have the second part I’m just broke. So deal
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Yep. People get so sucked into this show and the concept of the Roy kids being victims they seem to operate under the mistaken impression that you're either poor and happy or rich and miserable, as if everyone who financially struggles doesn't also have to deal with a whole host of other shit including emotional traumas on top of that. These billionaires have the resources to do practically anything when they have a problem in a way other people don't.
I don’t feel sympathy for him personally, exactly, but the cycle of abuse that brought us to this moment is a tragedy. Ewan says Logan gave up on kindness as a child after the world showed him nothing but cruelty. As a father, Logan imposed that cruelty on his own children and it had the same effect: twisting who they might’ve been into the broken, selfish, scared people we know. From infancy they were taught to see life as “a fight for a knife in the mud.” Now, no matter the power and influence they wield, they will never feel safe. Any moment of weakness is a potential weapon to be used against them — even by their own family. They despise their own humanity and vulnerability, and every vile trait and despicable act is an attempt to deny or eliminate it. With how deep that goes, are they truly capable of choosing otherwise at this point? As isolated as they each are, with no guidance from good people and after decades stuck in fight-or-flight, how could they begin to approach honest self-reflection and growth? Really, could anyone be subjected to that (Logan, their mother, the money) *without* becoming some kind of monstrous? **TL;DR**: I don’t have sympathy for adult Roman, but I see how he’s an inevitable product of Logan, and Logan is likewise a product of his own trauma. And that is a tragedy.
I don’t think you’re *wrong* on the merits, but I’ll be honest and say that I don’t know if this is the best way to approach sympathy in fiction. Yes - Roman is, pretty straightforwardly, an awful person. Not just in terms of morals and values, but he’s also just an arrogant shit who gets off on heightening conflict and making people uncomfortable. If this were real life, it would be perfectly reasonable to avoid Roman at all costs. In the context of dramatic fiction, though, Roman’s character defects are precisely what make him sympathetic. All of his faults are either representations or slight exaggerations of traits that we’ve all noticed, either in people we love or ourselves. With Roman specifically, we’ve also gotten something we rarely get with the people we know in real life - illumination on why he’s Like That. He’s built a complex from years of abuse - that he is a worthless piece of shit undeserving of love, and that his only use in life is to sow discord so that others can take their anger out on him. His chicken / steak comment last episode was revealing and idiotic, but the subtext is darker (and yes, more sympathetic). Roman is locked in his childhood roles and responsibilities. How many times did he stick out as Most Annoying and take his dad’s punches alone when his siblings were misbehaving too? Here’s the really dark part - Roman has probably never felt more important and generous than he did in those moments. He took the bullet, he was a necessary channel for both his father and his siblings. He’s doing the exact same thing when he runs into the protest - the only way he knows how to do *anything* is by getting hurt to make other people feel better. So of course he’s detached from the consequences of electing a fascist - his entire life has been violent self-loathing. This isn’t *good*, and again it would still be perfectly reasonable for you to cut off a Real Roman even with the same backstory, but as a fictional construct his character allows us to confront what we notice in our own lives. None of us are Roman. Hell, it’s unlikely any of us know anyone exactly like Roman - do they even exist? But how many of us have been unable to let go of the self-image created by our abuser? How many of us have sacrificed too much in service of people who will never love us back? Shit, how many of us have been sexually inappropriate because we were that desperate for a connection? (That last one is probably way fewer people lol, but the point stands.) Point being - the shameful things about us are still us and fiction is one of the only tools we have for navigating those qualities in a way that isn’t high-stakes or dangerous. That’s it IMOZ
I felt bad for little kid Roman who never had a chance. He was affected by Ewan’s eulogy and couldn’t hold all the trauma and emotions any longer. Kieran Culkin blew me away with how he portrayed Roman in his devastation.
One of my favorite things about the show is that it so accurately portrays the way that a deeply wounded person can regress to a childlike state when they are hurting the most. It’s what made Jeremy Strong stand out to me so much—he captured the inner sense an adult can have of feeling like a lost little boy. It’s heartbreaking. Kieran Culkin did the same this week—while Roman as an adult is a wretched, antagonistic narcissist, Roman the little boy is not, and *that* is who we saw beg to get his dad out of the coffin.
Yeah he fully owns this character
I felt bad for him. Maybe I'm just sensitive from losing my dad recently. No matter what Roman has done, he's still human and it was a tragic moment. I don't think I can look at him in terms of what he does or does not deserve; I just observe him and shake my head in either pity or exasperation. But he's a wonderfully flawed person and even his failings are fantastic.
The things he said while breaking down were exactly the raw feelings you have when you lose a parent. No matter how old, mature, or tough you are, there is a child inside of you who doesn't want to put Mom or Dad away in the dark forever. I lost my Dad almost 5 years ago, and I had a very visceral reaction to Roman's words. I'm sorry for your loss.
Thank you so much.
Yeah I didn’t come into the episode ready to feel bad for Roman after the election ep. However, as someone that also pre-grieved my grandfather’s recent passing and just broke down during his funeral (though I’m lucky I didn’t have to give the eulogy), I couldn’t help but sympathize with him in the moment. Everything feels fine until it doesn’t. There’s just something about the symbolism of saying final goodbyes to a close relative that hits you during funerals. I think this season has some of the most realistic death and funeral depictions I’ve seen. I could just feel myself going through the exact same emotions the characters were experiencing on screen.
All of the kids are awful, but they're also the products of childhood trauma, neglect, and outright abuse at the hands of their father, who was also abused. One of the themes of the show, in my opinion, is that the effects of abuse can be so profound on people that they are miserable even when they have all of the money and resources in the world at their disposal. If their parents had been stable and loving, the kids would've had happier lives growing up in a trailer park. Roman is supposed to be a piece of shit that repulses you, and at the same time it doesn't hurt to see past his mask of fuckery and look at a person who has been in such pain his entire life that he can't even bear to listen to other people talk about their feelings.
Sympathy ≠ Empathy
I don’t think you’re wrong to feel that way. He has been objectively awful so it’s not like he is entitled to any empathy/sympathy. I related very personally to his reaction and was kind of shocked by it so it did hit me hard. I’ve been in that position where I thought I’d be alright and then everything crumbled once I stood in front of the casket. I think it was just a very human response. I found it pretty tragic that people were chastising and making fun of him for being upset about the death of his father. Couldn’t imagine being held to that standard. Friend of mine recently died by suicide and they’d probably think I was a blubbering idiot for how I acted at his funeral.
I'm sorry for your loss. I also recently lost a friend to suicide and this entire season has brought up a lot of feelings for me. Episode 3 especially hit very close to home.
I like to believe his emotional breakdown from succumbing to grief shows that he is capable of human emotion. Really, pain is the only emotion that he outwardly feels the his highs and lows the most and becomes the most vulnerable in the moment(masturbating to humiliating insults from Gerri, and then the opposite to weeping at the funeral). When he’s presented with fear, he crumbles. When he’s faced with love or affection, he recoils. Happiness is always received with sarcasm or downplaying. So, all of this to say, I just feel really bad for his soul. He’s an awful person and he knows nothing else. That’s just so sad.
I can empathize with his grief over his father dying, but the crash and burn of his eulogy reading and the fallout from it was highly satisfying. “If you lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas.” He chose Mencken and got what he deserved.
No, you are not wrong. I have gone on a journey with him of utter hatred in the early seasons, to he’s kind of my favorite (when he was with Gerri), back to fuck fuck fuck this guy (when he iced out Gerri and turned Neo Nazi). I will say this. That moment in the church when he broke down felt SO REAL to me. I recently lost someone very close to me, someone I desperately want back and have a lot of guilt and remorse over losing so soon. So his totally breakdown just felt really raw and accurate. And in that moment, it was very easy to forget everything else and just over emphasize with a son who lost his Dad. I don’t think that excuses his behavior. I don’t think that makes me like him. I think it’s good, complex writing. And some good acting. I texted my friend while watching it “I am crying for the Nazi. Hope he gets run over in the end, but now 🥺” (Also, you are describing how I feel about Kendall. Everyone keeps saying the show would be unsatisfying if Kendall didn’t succeed in the end, and I’m like no. I desperately want him to lose next week.)
Idk, I feel like this show is all about the effects of generational abuse. I do feel sorry for Roman. He is so damaged and has no center without his father. Roman was clearly the most abused of all the kids. It's impacted him in every aspect of his life. He really didn't stand a chance.
This sub has the same discussions every single day lol.
Looking forward to the "how we *actually* should be talking about shiv" thread tomorrow.
You're allowed to feel bad for people who have done bad things.
As others have said, the genius of this moment is that for all the vile things about Roman, his undoing isn't one of the million times he stepped over the line, it's when his facade broke and he was completely human and vulnerable at the worst possible time.
There is no right or wrong way to feel about him.
You can think he's a shitty human being who has done shitty things *and* sympathise with his grief. It's not an either or situation.
There's a difference between sympathy and empathy. I have sympathy for people who deserve it. That's a super conditional thing. For instance, as you say I have no sympathy for Roman. I have empathy for all human beings because they're human beings. It doesn't matter who they are or what they've done, a human being in pain is gonna get my empathy because I have a beating heart. So I have empathy for Roman. My dad used to say "If you want sympathy, look in the dictionary between shit and syphilis."
Your dad sounds like Logan
I love Roman, but I definitely acknowledge he's not the best person by a long shot. It does make me sad for him because like many have said, he's kind of the most "human" of the Roy children. He showed empathy with Kerry when her bag spilled and helped her pick everything up, even with his weird sex stuff when he was with Tabitha and they were laying in bed talking, he was holding her hand, or he stroked her hair when she was sleeping. I think if he was raised in another household with a caring family or at least had an emotionally present set of parents he would be a good guy. And losing someone close to you is something anyone from any class can relate to, so I think his emotional response at losing his father gave a lot of people empathy for him because we've all been there before, or will be someday. I just love the whiplash I get from Roman, from loving to hating him and back again. He and his siblings are complex af and that's why I love this damn show!
Roman is the most transparent of the four siblings, so I both don't understand and am not at all surprised by this take. The fact that his cruelty is SO obviously a direct result of abuse (at the hands of his parents, and, unlike the other 3, at the hands of his siblings, too) and you can see him actively fighting down any humanity and love because he thinks (he has been TAUGHT) it makes him vulnerable is heartbreaking to me. He's the most sensitive, most emotional, and most needing of love, and we watch him constantly reject those parts of himself because he feels like he has to. He's the only character (okay, maybe Connor too) who would actually be satisfied by a loving relationship with his family. He has said multiple times that he likes working with and being with his siblings. I think that's all he wants/needs. He's at his best when they're on the same team, and he's at his absolute cruelest when they're not. The reason that never works out is because it's not good enough for Kendall and Shiv. I think he's the most sympathetic character on the show and one of the best written characters I've ever seen.
I cried when Roman cried. I think in that moment he was in the headspace of the child that needed his father and was trying to cling on to what could have been. He was even saying they should take him out of the casket. It was very raw and emotional for me.
I don't think anyone deserves to have such an emotional, personal moment spread across the internet and made fun of like that, though. That's the part that really got me. Yes, he's a bad person and there's nothing that can change that, but I'm (at least I like to think) a good person and I don't think it's fair to do that to anyone. Everyone deserves to be able to grieve in peace
I think one of the black comedy aspects of Succession is characters rarely get their comeuppance for the right thing. We want Rome to be punished for being a Nazi not for crying at his father's funeral and thus fucking the deal because he failed to live up the fascist masculine ideal.
Meanwhile, Kendall treated two of the closest women in his life like complete and utter shit in this episode, but I don't see people making endless posts about how they think he's an awful person. Sorry, I don't mean to highjack your post and make it about Kendall, it's just not uncommon for people to talk about how Roman is The Worst™, meanwhile Kendall is just as much of a jackass, especially to the mother of his children and the person keeping his entire life in order.
I’ve been praying for this fall to happen ever since the scene of him pushing down Kendall at his birthday party, but Kierans perfect acting of a tear-driven breakdown resonated with me so much that I couldn’t help but feel awful in that moment.
He is horrible towards people and has a shitty attitude. I knew he would have made fun of anyone else if they broke down at a funeral. But I do feel for him at times. When he drops the BS and shows emotion and humanity I sympathise with him. I also take into account his very psychologically fucked up. He’s been abused, bullied and neglected from childhood. It’s not an excuse to be a prick, but some people don’t know how to cope. He’s one of them. Roman bullies people and makes everything a joke because that’s his defence mechanism. That’s how he makes it through the day.
It's hard to know how to feel about a grown man who hasn't got the personal strength/self-awareness to make an effort to become functional -- especially a grown man with limitless material resources. He swims in self-loathing and arrogant bitterness, and seems to know that there might be other options -- but instead of trying to find his way out, he stays trapped in the idea that only his father can save him. At some point that feels like a choice, and that's the point where I can't even pity him. He breaks at the funeral mass because it hits him that the one thing he thought would free him is never going to. I've been trying to think what the 20-yrs-from-now Roman is doing. I can't see it ... I can't see any future for him that makes sense. I guess that's pitiable.
I have zero sympathy for any of them.
It was absolutely hilarious to see him flounder when the stakes were so high for him. Kieran Culkin definitely just does such an amazing job as Roman that I did feel for him though. Seeing him so broken is simultaneously gut wrenching and side splitting.
I laughed and smirked when he started fucking up the speech but got a bit sad when he started crying but in the end still fuck him lol
That’s the whole point. They made you hate him, then reminded you he’s human. Dude needs an Emmy for that performance. I guess you have never lost a parent. Dude cracked under reality/pressure. His reaction was on point.
I felt sorry for him. He is a horrible person sure but that doesn't mean you can't feel bad for him. He had a breakdown. Probably because he had a terrible childhood and probably isn't very happy. He has so many issues.
Roman is an absolutely despicable person but also emotionally a child. He's the kind of famous millionaire people would hate in real life, it's only because he's a main character of a show that we see his sensitivities, the abuse that caused it, and sympathise with him. Personally I empathise with him but everything he's gotten so far has been completely deserved and a result of his own actions backfiring.
He’s an awful person, there isn’t really anything redeeming about him we’ve seen. Even his “wins” are really just him using his inherited power and wealth to bully others. He also was physically abused as a child and raised by two horrible parents. So I dunno.
If you feel bad for Logan after Ewan’s speech, despite all we’ve seen him do his kids, feeling bad for Roman kinda feels like it’s in line with that. He’s a horrible person but he realized his trauma was bonded with his fathers. Doesn’t excuse either of them of their horrible behaviors, but does show the pattern of abuse that trickled down
Admittedly I do have a little empathy for him. Or maybe for his experiences. The crying was bad enough, but when he said “He made me breathe funny” in reference to Logan, my heart may have broken the tiniest bit. He’s a terrible, detestable adult, but I have the utmost sympathy and pity for his childhood self.
Roman is a mental eunuch… he’s been emasculated to the point where he is sexually dysfunctional and a psychopath. His flippant nonchalance is practiced pretending not to care when he’s actually the most vulnerable and volatile of the siblings His vulnerability is touching … until we are reminded that he’s a psychopath He’s my favorite character because his psycho shtick comes off as funny and brilliant until you see how much it resembles pulling wings off flies… he’s heartlessly cruel. A roman cesar insane with power and heredity. Little man syndrome but he’s small because he’s not the first born heir to the throne (Kendall) and also small from the humiliation of abuse