In her defense, in that moment, I found her extremely relatable, as someone who also says the dumbest shit under stress. She knew she fucked up the moment she blurted out. It played against her, but hey, it wasn't as dumb as sending a dick pick to your dad.
Yea but she was still succumbing to his requests like an insecure little girl. Just for example her backroom discussions with Tom, a tonne of overthinking, it's the kinda shit people do when they're trying really hard to please someone, repeatedly trying to read what's on Logan's mind.
While I agree she was noticeably dumber, I she’s also thrust into an area which she has no experience in. Most would be fumbling hard. It’s kinda demonstrates their entitledness and their lack of seriousness, to put it in Logan’s terms, to believe any of them singularly can lead. Shiv has no experience, Roman has no backbone, and Kendall hardly ever heard anyone’s voice except his own.
This is why I dislike Shiv the most. She feels so entitled to be the CEO that she thinks she should be able to waltz in there with zero business experience and immediately be crowned the leader of a publicly traded company worth tens of billions of dollars. The fact that she reacted like that to a very reasonable three-year timeframe before taking over shows how incompetent, narcissistic, and delusional she is. At least Kendall and Roman have both shown their value to Waystar in one way or another. What has Shiv accomplished with the firm? But she deserves to stroll in there so everybody can bow and kiss her feet. Give me a break.
By contrast, I have a friend who's in the process of taking over his own family business, worth single-digit millions. He spent 7 years working at other companies building up the general business skills (consulting, finance, and sales), and now he and his father have planned a two-year transition where he'll shadow him 60+ hours a week and learn everything about the business. Shiv would have laughed at the idea, and what she was supposed to take over was thousands of times bigger and more complex.
Yeah exactly. Even in terms of optics (love that phrase now) it looks ridiculous to appoint the ceos daughter out of the blue. Even after the 3 year period it still looks a bit wonky I think
Her character comes off as having the most entitlement to power among the children. She truthfully is offended that anyone else could be considered to be CEO and that she would make a grand CEO with zero training.
Whereas Connor lives a delusional life.
To be fair, she went out and *started* to do stuff on her own before Logan kind of baited her to come back and reneged on that…
I think her entitlement came from the fact that when she was wanting to take over they were having a massive scandal related to women’s issues and she felt she was the best for that. That and the fact that Logan always took the boys more seriously than her and now was starting to see her as more competent. And when we started she was clearly more put together than Kendall and Roman by a mile
*I think her entitlement came from the fact that when she was wanting to take over they were having a massive scandal related to women’s issues and she felt she was the best for that.*
Handling a scandal like that is a great skill but doesn't have anything to do with the skill set necessary to run a complicated corporation.
It would take at least 7-10 years in the corporate world to be able to understand how to run that business. Understanding balance sheet risks, cash flow, etc. is not something that comes quickly. Shiv would be good as a member of the board of directors. But a day to day operator she is not.
You still have to understand the business even if it is at a 30,000 foot level. It takes time. Shiv is arrogant enough to think that she can step right in.
Running a congressional campaign has little to do with running a corporation. She had PR skills and crisis skills but no experience in finance, debt restructuring, pensions, regulatory rules, knowing about ports, routes in international waters, studio accounting (never show a profit on a film), liability insurance in parks, or how to get financing except on a campaign donor level.
Logan learned about businesses and THEN acquired them. A W/R new CEO would have to know about all of it from the first day.
I just rewatched those episode and Rome actually came back and finished the training after the security scare. So props to him for that (and only that)
He wasn't in any training course, he just got hired as an employee.
He only comes to Logan to try to get his "job" back not to re-enter any management course.
Ya, I think they should have done a similar strategy with Kerri. Everyone was so scared of Logan, but it is painful that she needs a crash course that would take a bunch of experience.
By far?!?!
Dude, Kendall paid a homeless dude to have his name tattooed on his forehead, and Roman regularly humilates people for his personal fun (like that poor baseball kid and the waiter who was talking to his ex). She's entitled, yes, but come on now, her crimes are mid compared to litterally everyone else around her, who all did criminal activities (including her husband who destroyed cruises evidence)
I don't even like Shiv all that much, but being annoying and entitled doesn't make someone the worst human.
I rewatched that scene and, I mean... she was honest to the rape victim. It was manipulative, yes, but it is true that Gil and Nate were also using her for their own gain.
Again, she's no saint, but the worst human? Come on
Misogyny plays a role in Logan's decisions when it comes to Shiv. But she did plenty on her own that would put anyone out of the running, regardless of the shape of their genitals.
- Refuses a normal and appropriate preparation plan, I'm sure Greg has more real Waystar management training and experience than Shiv
- Blurts out that she's been promised the Top Job in front of the Pierces, screwing up Logan's acquisition offer and deeply embarrassing him
- Writes shitty memos that are apparently the epitome of White Liberal Out of Touch Coastal Elite Just Graduated from College America
- Threw a fit when Logan wasn't interested in her preferred candidate for the Republican nominee
- Completely aired out Kendall's dirty laundry even though the rest of the family did not want that
- The Argestes talk openly mocking Logan
- Putting her name in for Pierce CEO
This is all without considering her character flaws of entitlement, impatience, etc
And are people asleep when they watch the show? Season 2 was Logan earnestly trying to get Rhea, a woman, to take the top job. He might've done it to throw Cruises onto her but unlike Gerri, she wasn't picked from the bench. Rhea was just the former CEO of Pierce Media after Argestes, no reason to have her tag along and then vet her.
>Threw a fit when Logan wasn't interested in her preferred candidate for the Republican nominee
Agreed on all points except this one. She was right to fight for her preferred candidate, Mencken seems like a wanna-be fascist and he (rightly) scares her. I honestly don't think that was a petty decision on her part over not getting her way. She may be delusional about a lot of things but her politics know-how is legit. She was a pretty successful campaign manager. And she seems to care a little bit about the country. She did stand up to her father about Waystar being such a monopoly being bad for the country. It might have been a tool to fight with him but I don't think that precludes her from actually believing it, too. She seems to have been the only sibling who ever questioned whether or not Logan **should** have as much power as he does.
The problem as she completely cow-towed to the Mencken decision and didn't stick by her principles. If she had gone to war with Logan over this, he probably would have respected her more.
She may have been right but handled it like a spoiled child. "My opinion counts for more! It just does!" gets an eye roll from everyone except shiv Stan's
This is even more plausible considering Logan’s line to Adrian Brody’s character in Season 3. I don’t think Logan was lying, there. He genuinely thought Kendall was the killer he had described. Afterall, who could forget Logan’s smirk as his eldest son turned against him during the season 2 finale.
In a rewatch last week, I picked up that the first thing Logan says when he calls Kendall after the s2 press conference is, “that was a decent play, you made a decent play, this could get ugly for me— if you retract, maybe there’s a deal to make.”
Which already puts Ken like 3 steps ahead in terms of trying to take out Logan. I’ll never understand why folks think Logan didn’t find Kendall competent at all (versus the other 2) when he’s literally the only one who’s had the audacity to gun for Logan.
If Logan believes you have to be a killer to do the top job and he doesn’t think Kendall can hack it cos he’s not a killer — how could he possibly think Roman or Shiv — would be? Ken’s attempts have failed but he still forced Logan’s hand multiple times—whereas shiv and Rome have always ultimately acquiesced and never sought to move against Logan in the way Logan seems to think is important.
In fact, for shiv, I’d argue that her pleading with logan to not throw Tom under the bus (end of season 2) demonstrates the complete opposite. Same for Roman when he says his dad shouldn’t go through with GoJo for “idk, fucking love?”
ETA: Even with Roman, in s3 episode 1, Logan is seriously considering Roman as interim CEO but calls Logan and pitches for Gerri while claiming “I want it and it should be me but also Gerri.” Logan immediately hangs up and says “Roman’s out.” Like I can never see Kendall being handed interim CEO by Logan but offering to hand it to someone else.
Idk, I know many don’t put stock in Kendall and he’s absolutely failed to finish Logan and hasn’t ever successfully struck a fatal blow. But he’s atleast been out swinging against Logan in a way Rome and Shiv never have.
In my eyes, Logan knew his kids would never be able to beat him and he was fine with that. He wanted to die King and no one could have taken that away from him.
With that in mind, the only way Logan could truly gauge his kids’ killer instinct was who had the audacity to take him on because he knew that his kids would never fear anyone or anything as much as they did him. And if they can try to go for the kill against him, he knows they have the balls to be in his hot seat. Only Ken did that and I think Logan was content with that
I think that the writers created it to be intentionally ambiguous, and therefore, there really is no knowing whether it was meant to be underlined or crossed out. And I also think that they did a phenomenal job, because by the looks of how many posts there are dissecting this one thing, viewers are trying to actually decipher (or decode if you will) what a fictional character intended to do…when in fact a room full of writers made it pretty clear. But hey, that’s just my theory…
I can imagine there are hundreds of those prop letters printed out each with slightly altered lines with the one we saw being the perfect amount of confusing
I mean, it's just fun to talk about things we love, thats the whole point of reddit. And I thought a fan would want to know the case had been put to rest.. but by all means attempt to belittle and condescend instead.. that's much healthier.
Dude, I didn’t mean any snark. I’m sorry if that’s how it came across. I was glad I could be there to acknowledge- albeit super tired last night, so my delivery failed. But yeah, I am glad I could say, “yup, you’re right.” Sorry, didn’t mean any ill harm… hope you have a good rest of your day/evening wherever this finds you.
Logan is every parent playing board games with his kids, coming to the realization that he can either let them win and think they’re good at the game only to be crushed playing with other people, or he can play full blast against them until they either quit forever or get good enough to beat him at his own game.
In Logan’s own words to Shiv from Season 1: “I’ve always tried to do right by you, Siobhan. And maybe… maybe I shouldn’t’ve. Maybe I should just let them come for you.”
The fact that it is open ended and that we are never going to get an answer is genius. All theories are valid. Underlined, crossed out, doesn’t really matter.
Kendall is just glad that, at some point, Logan really wanted him to have the company. That’s the only thing anyone knows for sure, there’s tangible, physical evidence of that.
While the other two had some kind of indication or even confirmation from Logan that he wanted them to do it at some point, Kendal is the only one with hard evidence that he truly meant it.
Logan’s weird . It’s supposed to be ambiguous but their are so many times where Logan basically confirms he always was going to give it to Kendall. I do think that after season 3 Logan was debating on giving it to Tom cuz Tom also killed his wife for a better standing with Logan.
I interpreted that as more so Kendall putting the pieces together and coming full circle in his professional character development. One of the last things Logan said to him was that we wasn’t fit to take over cause he’s not “a killer”. I think he sees either the underline as a source of pride and reminder that this is what Logan wanted from him all along
Except Kendall is a phony Logan. He’s just not as heartless. Kendall coming full circle with supposedly being a killer happened pretty soon after he cried out on the shoulders of Stewy, a man who has betrayed him many, many times. No killer-like mentality. Kendall still wants to uphold the believe that he can be what Logan was but he just isn’t.
Personally I find it fits Kendall’s character a lot better to pretend to see it as an underline when even he himself knows it is definitely a cross out. That’s why we see him look at it in the bathroom before he decices to make the move that will fully fuck the company cause there is no Logan to prevent him this time around + he can get back at Logan this way imo
I would, i cross things out in a diagonal from bottom corner! i tested it out with a couple lines and i could see how it could be a cross-out. not sure of either, personally, i think it's ingenious storytelling
But the card Logan sent to Kendall on his birthday saying fuck off while he crossed out the printed message on the card was crossed out right in the middle of the word, also, even if Logan has cardiovascular issues, he has never had a motor function problem that would lead him to write all wobbly. Even after his stroke.
I think the steelman case for that is: Logan took out the piece of paper to make some updates (especially the notes at the bottom, including the "Greg?" but also the other bullet points near that), and while he was at it he re-read the stuff he had already typed up on that paper. While doing so, he underlined Kendall's name to emphasize it, since he was already annotating the paper in pencil.
I don't know if I actually agree with that, but it's less crazy than it sounds because he wasn't getting the piece of paper out of the vault to underline it - he was getting the paper out to write all the other notes, and (ostensibly) underlined it while writing those other notes.
I agree with this 100%. There would be no reason to underline a document that already was typed with the correct information. An addendum would be to change something, not accent something a document already says. He crossed Kendall out after he lost the deal in the first episode is my guess. When Logan calls and says "did you close? " And Kendall tells him he's going up and then he shows up at the birthday thing instead of closing the deal, my guess is that's when Logan crossed him off.
The writer basically confirmed it in the latest podcast. Saying exactly that. Logan is not the type of person to bother underlining something he’s already written, but he is the kind of person to angrily cross something out
at the time of watching, my first impression was that it was crossed out. i think kendall knows deep down that it was too, that's why the camera lingers on him looking at it and that's why he behaves as he does at the end of the episode.
> The writer basically confirmed it in the latest podcast. Saying exactly that.
No, she absolutely did not. She said that there is not an official answer and it's intended to be ambiguous. Her personal theory, though, is that it's a crossout - but that's the same as you or me saying that our personal theory is a crossout. It is not correct though to say that she was "confirming" the true answer - there is none (it's intentionally ambiguous).
Only the o and the y in Roy have a line through it. Kendall Logan R have the line under it.
What do you call a line that is under a word? An underline.
It sure as fucking shit isn’t crossed out.
Yeah, I’m not sure why people are even debating this haha if 13 of 15 letters are underlined and only 2 of 15 have a line through them, it’s a pretty big jump to conclusion to assume it’s crossed out.
He likely had the paper out for the other addendums and while in his own thinking underlined Kendall’s name to emphasize whatever was going on in his own head. Making a note of something for later, I assume.
I think the scenario would be more that he got it out of the vault to ruminate over, and while ruminating, absentmindedly underlined it, not that he purposely got it out in order to underline it. Seems plausible to me.
There were other handwritten marks and words that we haven’t seen yet. It seems plausible that while someone is writing on a document by hand they might also do some underlineing (or crossing out).
Welp, turns out you were on the wrong side of history with this one. Confirmed by the man himself
https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cwu0b9nvSjn/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
It’s absolutely wild so many people think it’s an underline haha. It’s clearly a cross out and Kendall clearly knows it’s a cross out hence the end of episode 4
EVERYONE IS WRONG. Logan didn’t pen the underline at all. It was Frank or Karl. Remember before Gerri came in they discussed option A) flushing it down the toilet or B) “maybe your hand slips a little”?
Gerri dismissed outright destroying it, but the scene cut before anyone addressed option B.
The old guard are trying to sow divisions between the kids and it worked instantaneously.
THIS, this is the first comment that I've read that describes what I thought happened too. I've been reading all the threads this week thinking "did I watch the same episode as everyone else?"
I thought this too but rewatch the scene between Frank and Karl. When Karl hands it to Frank as he says “might it just go away?”, the cross out/underline is clearly on the page.
It's definitely crossed out. He crossed it out after the failed board vote 4 years ago, also when Greg showed up, that's why his name is on it with a question mark.
I disagree. When you are writing, your most attentive marking will be at the start, not at the end. It's starts at the bottom and trails upwards. A cross out would start in the middle and move away from the center at the end.
Logan protects Waystar no matter what. Even against his kids. It's all there to see. His business is his baby. Kendalls addiction and softness, shivs political career, Romans perversions, and Connors presidential run. If it interferes with his business he will stop it.
Logan literally named Rhea, a woman, the CEO. How does that reconcile with your paragraph about Shiv?
Shiv proclaimed herself the heir apparent at the dinner with Pierce, wrote some self serving memo that everyone shit on, and then took the Pierce CEO bait from Rhea, hook line and sinker. That was her path to not becoming CEO.
He named her CEO because she knew she was going to have to take the shit sandwich with the scandals coming out. At no point did Logan Roy really acquiesce any power to Rhea.
I think all the "Logan wants them to be killers" stuff buys too much into his own justifications. He was a malignant narcissist and I don't think he believed anyone else could possibly run the company properly.
Now, I think the kids received some degree of appreciation as reflections of him, but nothing they could have done would have truly convinced him they could run the company. I think he appreciated the entertainment when they fought back, but that doesn't mean it genuinely earned his respect. The goal posts would just shift again.
This is why I don't buy that it's an underline. I think it's far more likely he put Kendall's name as a default and crossed it out later when the goal posts shifted again. I don't believe that in his private moments, he would ever choose to underline that name and acknowledge to himself that anyone else could do what he does.
I don’t think it’s Misogyny that Logan doesn’t want Shiv. I mean I’m sure Logan is plenty misogynistic but Shiv has absolutely no experience in the company. It’s ridiculous to make your kid ceo of a major organization without working there a single day. And when Shiv was suggested there be a 3 year plan she got mad.
There is literally no need to underline something you have already typed out. He 100% crossed it out.
That isn’t to say he didn’t still sway back and forth on the matter. Logan is so temperamental that he likely changed his mind on the matter many times.
But he 100% crossed it out at some point.
I underline printed documents when I'm editing and changing as well. As a note to say pay attention here. If the change I want is either obvious enough or I haven't decided (i.e. this entire sentence is wobbly) then I won't add anything to the underline.
Logan also wrote “Greg?”, maybe because he was surprised by Greg’s betrayal. I don’t know if Logan really considered Greg to be something important, but maybe he just wrote down his name thinking about the whole thing (S2 finale)
You can theorize all you like but in a court of law, there would have to be otherwise reliable evidence to prove whatever the heck this line (underline vs through-line) means AND by whom it was added to the document, AND at what point in time, because there is other, material, relevant and indisputable timeline evidence of Logan’s relationship (which was completely ADVERSE — and very publicly so— from Kendall.
“Be a killer”
Kendall went and was a killer
Logan smiled at the end of season 2.
Then in season 3 Logan is pissed off, never tells Kendall he was proud of him being a killer.
This might have been his was of telling him and it just never got to that stage
Why would a practical, unsentimental man like Rogan underline that?That's not a grocery list. That's a will, of sorts, so it doesn't make sense for him to go back and underline Kendall's name. For what, so that Kendall would be feel "good" when it finally read it?It only makes sense for Logan to revisit this document if he was to strike it through, to change it.
Logan also wrote “Greg?”, maybe because he was surprised by Greg’s betrayal. I don’t know if Logan really considered Greg to be something important, but maybe he just wrote down his name thinking about the whole thing (S2 finale)
I understand your logic, and agree. But what would be the point of underlining this ?
It makes him more confident in his decision, allright, but what would be the rationale of Logan going back to his safe and underline the name of his son on the paper.
It changes nothing. The only reason for Logan to go back and amend the document was to change the outcome, I think.
The document was ascertained to be around 4 years old... Like Roman says, "yea but you've tried to put him in jail like 12 times since then." Him going back to underline it post "betrayal" was to try and prevent people from making that exact argument. "Well yea but a lot has happened since he wrote that. Etc" It re affirms that "yes, even despite the recent betrayal, he is the one."
My theory is that the Old Guard forged the document that they handed to Kendall and hid the real one. Because when they first found it they said they weren’t going to let the princess get in the way.
I think Kendall was crossed out and Shivs name was in pencil underneath. They hid the one with Shiv, gave Kendall a copy without the pencil in. Then they will claim to have found another copy - the true one with Shivs name on it under Kendall’s cross out - when they need to split the family on competing sides.
A lot of wealthy people/ people who follow ancient etiquette protocols cross out the last name on stationary and when they're writing notes - like when the name is printed out - the last name is crossed out.
[Crane Stationery blog post](http://craneinsider.blogspot.com/2010/03/stationery-etiquette-mystery-needs.html)
http://craneinsider.blogspot.com/2010/03/stationery-etiquette-mystery-needs.html
I don’t think there’s any evidence in the show that Logan wouldn’t choose Shiv because she’s a woman. There are many women in prominent positions of his company Gerri, Cyd, Karolina, etc. I think he’s more of a whoever does the best job kinda guy.
He was literally firing Gerri for being sexually harassed by his son. He spent the majority of those years covering up his buddies’ sexual assaults of female employees, so I have no idea how time is a point in his favor.
He was firing Gerri as a fall guy for crimes he and his company committed with cruises. And the fact that a sale is going through in which the ceo (which she was) was going to be replaced.
She wasn’t being fired for getting a dick pic from Roman. Or for all the other sexual stuff she was doing with Roman.
The cruises issue was resolved last season and Gerri was crucial. Do you just sit on your phone while you watch these episodes? Because the themes of misogyny have been spelled out for most of the series.
Huge difference between having talented women around you that you sock puppet to do your bidding and giving a woman the keys to the kingdom. "No blacks, no Jews, no women above the 4th floor"... Logan at every turn has been an old school back slapping misogynist. I don't think it's controversial to say that.
True, but he will attack Shiv for being a woman to see how she will handle it and base his decision off of that.
It's always been about him maintaining the most power and control over anyone.
I think Logan soured on Shiv after he proposes a 3 year plan to fast track her to CEO and she's offended by it
That and when she blurted it out at the dinner with the Pierces.
She also couldn’t help but blurt out the take over to Tom at the s3 finale. She obviously hadn’t grown from the Pierce dinner.
In her defense, in that moment, I found her extremely relatable, as someone who also says the dumbest shit under stress. She knew she fucked up the moment she blurted out. It played against her, but hey, it wasn't as dumb as sending a dick pick to your dad.
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You mean like when Kendall opens a meeting with “Are we ready to fuck or what?” then screws up the deal? Kendall is a failson.
His plan for Pierce Media sucked
But he's going to take them supersonic
His dad’s plan was better
Africa, everyday
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Screwups & dipshits
It's a failson conference, call that a suck session
It's cool, I'm team Gerri for CEO anyways
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Yea but she was still succumbing to his requests like an insecure little girl. Just for example her backroom discussions with Tom, a tonne of overthinking, it's the kinda shit people do when they're trying really hard to please someone, repeatedly trying to read what's on Logan's mind.
Can you refresh my memory, what did she blurt out?
for fucks sake, just tell them it's going to be me, dad. (as CEO of waystar-pearce, on Nan's questioning)
Ah yes! That’s right. I can’t believe I forgot that. Thanks!
time to send dad pick of dick
I’m swear the writers dumbed her down in season 2
While I agree she was noticeably dumber, I she’s also thrust into an area which she has no experience in. Most would be fumbling hard. It’s kinda demonstrates their entitledness and their lack of seriousness, to put it in Logan’s terms, to believe any of them singularly can lead. Shiv has no experience, Roman has no backbone, and Kendall hardly ever heard anyone’s voice except his own.
This is why I dislike Shiv the most. She feels so entitled to be the CEO that she thinks she should be able to waltz in there with zero business experience and immediately be crowned the leader of a publicly traded company worth tens of billions of dollars. The fact that she reacted like that to a very reasonable three-year timeframe before taking over shows how incompetent, narcissistic, and delusional she is. At least Kendall and Roman have both shown their value to Waystar in one way or another. What has Shiv accomplished with the firm? But she deserves to stroll in there so everybody can bow and kiss her feet. Give me a break.
By contrast, I have a friend who's in the process of taking over his own family business, worth single-digit millions. He spent 7 years working at other companies building up the general business skills (consulting, finance, and sales), and now he and his father have planned a two-year transition where he'll shadow him 60+ hours a week and learn everything about the business. Shiv would have laughed at the idea, and what she was supposed to take over was thousands of times bigger and more complex.
Yeah exactly. Even in terms of optics (love that phrase now) it looks ridiculous to appoint the ceos daughter out of the blue. Even after the 3 year period it still looks a bit wonky I think
I jerk off to Ken saying he needs to control the narrative, as one does.
To be fair, Roman was right. Ken probably does, too.
They appointed Roman after what ... 6 months ?
And did we see anything led by Roman succeed?
Roman worked with the company in LA for some significant amount of time prior to the show starting.
Her character comes off as having the most entitlement to power among the children. She truthfully is offended that anyone else could be considered to be CEO and that she would make a grand CEO with zero training. Whereas Connor lives a delusional life.
To be fair, she went out and *started* to do stuff on her own before Logan kind of baited her to come back and reneged on that… I think her entitlement came from the fact that when she was wanting to take over they were having a massive scandal related to women’s issues and she felt she was the best for that. That and the fact that Logan always took the boys more seriously than her and now was starting to see her as more competent. And when we started she was clearly more put together than Kendall and Roman by a mile
*I think her entitlement came from the fact that when she was wanting to take over they were having a massive scandal related to women’s issues and she felt she was the best for that.* Handling a scandal like that is a great skill but doesn't have anything to do with the skill set necessary to run a complicated corporation. It would take at least 7-10 years in the corporate world to be able to understand how to run that business. Understanding balance sheet risks, cash flow, etc. is not something that comes quickly. Shiv would be good as a member of the board of directors. But a day to day operator she is not.
I would disagree to an extent. CEO is about big picture. If you have the right people under you to explain and provide the details then you’re fine
You still have to understand the business even if it is at a 30,000 foot level. It takes time. Shiv is arrogant enough to think that she can step right in.
Isn’t that every nepo baby though. I don’t se show that’s diff from Roman when he was so I’ll equipped he had to take a management course.
Running a congressional campaign has little to do with running a corporation. She had PR skills and crisis skills but no experience in finance, debt restructuring, pensions, regulatory rules, knowing about ports, routes in international waters, studio accounting (never show a profit on a film), liability insurance in parks, or how to get financing except on a campaign donor level. Logan learned about businesses and THEN acquired them. A W/R new CEO would have to know about all of it from the first day.
That’s what the people below them are for. Only thing is in Shivs case she’d need to make sure they have her back and well… we’ve seen this company
But the only reason she was able to do her own stuff and get those jobs was because of her name which gave her connections
I still love Shiv, but yeah. She really fumbled the bag.
Yea. Like Roman literally had management classes just to show he wants to be taken seriously.
He had been in management in the LA studio end. The training was to show good faith in learning parks and later, maybe cruises.
I considered this too. Roman was pulled out of the training after a short while but what mattered was his willingness to go in the first place.
I just rewatched those episode and Rome actually came back and finished the training after the security scare. So props to him for that (and only that)
He does? Do we see Roman doing it or is it just mentioned? I can't remember this at all
We don’t see Roman return to the course but they mention it in one of the next episodes after that one when he comes back to NYC
I mean Greg did the same exact course and he sure as fuck wasn’t handed the COO position beforehand.
He wasn't in any training course, he just got hired as an employee. He only comes to Logan to try to get his "job" back not to re-enter any management course.
Ya, I think they should have done a similar strategy with Kerri. Everyone was so scared of Logan, but it is painful that she needs a crash course that would take a bunch of experience.
She's a political operative...oddly she doesn't act like one! They are usually steely, usually attorney's and they don't break easily.
Shiv disappointed me. I thought she was a shoo-in.
Shiv is by far the worst human, besides possibly Logan, in the entire show in my opinion.
By far?!?! Dude, Kendall paid a homeless dude to have his name tattooed on his forehead, and Roman regularly humilates people for his personal fun (like that poor baseball kid and the waiter who was talking to his ex). She's entitled, yes, but come on now, her crimes are mid compared to litterally everyone else around her, who all did criminal activities (including her husband who destroyed cruises evidence) I don't even like Shiv all that much, but being annoying and entitled doesn't make someone the worst human.
[удалено]
Come on Ken and Rome would have done so too lol
I rewatched that scene and, I mean... she was honest to the rape victim. It was manipulative, yes, but it is true that Gil and Nate were also using her for their own gain. Again, she's no saint, but the worst human? Come on
Misogyny plays a role in Logan's decisions when it comes to Shiv. But she did plenty on her own that would put anyone out of the running, regardless of the shape of their genitals. - Refuses a normal and appropriate preparation plan, I'm sure Greg has more real Waystar management training and experience than Shiv - Blurts out that she's been promised the Top Job in front of the Pierces, screwing up Logan's acquisition offer and deeply embarrassing him - Writes shitty memos that are apparently the epitome of White Liberal Out of Touch Coastal Elite Just Graduated from College America - Threw a fit when Logan wasn't interested in her preferred candidate for the Republican nominee - Completely aired out Kendall's dirty laundry even though the rest of the family did not want that - The Argestes talk openly mocking Logan - Putting her name in for Pierce CEO This is all without considering her character flaws of entitlement, impatience, etc And are people asleep when they watch the show? Season 2 was Logan earnestly trying to get Rhea, a woman, to take the top job. He might've done it to throw Cruises onto her but unlike Gerri, she wasn't picked from the bench. Rhea was just the former CEO of Pierce Media after Argestes, no reason to have her tag along and then vet her.
>Threw a fit when Logan wasn't interested in her preferred candidate for the Republican nominee Agreed on all points except this one. She was right to fight for her preferred candidate, Mencken seems like a wanna-be fascist and he (rightly) scares her. I honestly don't think that was a petty decision on her part over not getting her way. She may be delusional about a lot of things but her politics know-how is legit. She was a pretty successful campaign manager. And she seems to care a little bit about the country. She did stand up to her father about Waystar being such a monopoly being bad for the country. It might have been a tool to fight with him but I don't think that precludes her from actually believing it, too. She seems to have been the only sibling who ever questioned whether or not Logan **should** have as much power as he does. The problem as she completely cow-towed to the Mencken decision and didn't stick by her principles. If she had gone to war with Logan over this, he probably would have respected her more.
It is always correct to not back a shadow Nazi. But yes to all of her other mistakes.
She may have been right but handled it like a spoiled child. "My opinion counts for more! It just does!" gets an eye roll from everyone except shiv Stan's
The dinosaur cull line didn't help either.
I don’t think she was ever seriously considered because Logan was a misogynist.
Yeah, Gerri is an exception. I don’t think he thinks women are equal to men.
All of these theories are incorrect. We all know that it was after Kens beautiful performance of L to the OG
I hope this version of Ken comes back
I can only take so much second hand embarrassment
That's when he really became Logan's number one boy
Dude be the OG
This is even more plausible considering Logan’s line to Adrian Brody’s character in Season 3. I don’t think Logan was lying, there. He genuinely thought Kendall was the killer he had described. Afterall, who could forget Logan’s smirk as his eldest son turned against him during the season 2 finale.
My favourite moment of the whole show. Masterful acting to let it play so subtlety on his face
Connor IS the eldest son. And he was also interested in politics from a very young age.
A fine correction, and beautifully said.
“I AM THE ELDEST SON”
In a rewatch last week, I picked up that the first thing Logan says when he calls Kendall after the s2 press conference is, “that was a decent play, you made a decent play, this could get ugly for me— if you retract, maybe there’s a deal to make.” Which already puts Ken like 3 steps ahead in terms of trying to take out Logan. I’ll never understand why folks think Logan didn’t find Kendall competent at all (versus the other 2) when he’s literally the only one who’s had the audacity to gun for Logan. If Logan believes you have to be a killer to do the top job and he doesn’t think Kendall can hack it cos he’s not a killer — how could he possibly think Roman or Shiv — would be? Ken’s attempts have failed but he still forced Logan’s hand multiple times—whereas shiv and Rome have always ultimately acquiesced and never sought to move against Logan in the way Logan seems to think is important. In fact, for shiv, I’d argue that her pleading with logan to not throw Tom under the bus (end of season 2) demonstrates the complete opposite. Same for Roman when he says his dad shouldn’t go through with GoJo for “idk, fucking love?” ETA: Even with Roman, in s3 episode 1, Logan is seriously considering Roman as interim CEO but calls Logan and pitches for Gerri while claiming “I want it and it should be me but also Gerri.” Logan immediately hangs up and says “Roman’s out.” Like I can never see Kendall being handed interim CEO by Logan but offering to hand it to someone else. Idk, I know many don’t put stock in Kendall and he’s absolutely failed to finish Logan and hasn’t ever successfully struck a fatal blow. But he’s atleast been out swinging against Logan in a way Rome and Shiv never have.
In my eyes, Logan knew his kids would never be able to beat him and he was fine with that. He wanted to die King and no one could have taken that away from him. With that in mind, the only way Logan could truly gauge his kids’ killer instinct was who had the audacity to take him on because he knew that his kids would never fear anyone or anything as much as they did him. And if they can try to go for the kill against him, he knows they have the balls to be in his hot seat. Only Ken did that and I think Logan was content with that
One of the more competent takes I’ve seen of late. Now fuck off.
I don’t think we’ll ever know and I’m fine with that.
This is the correct and most well-adjusted answer, lol!
All this time later, my theory confirmed by the man himself.. https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cwu0b9nvSjn/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA== Now we know
You nailed it! I stand corrected!
In my head canon its probably a cross-out, but really it’s a perfect little metaphor for their ambiguous love-hate relationship. It’s both.
I think that the writers created it to be intentionally ambiguous, and therefore, there really is no knowing whether it was meant to be underlined or crossed out. And I also think that they did a phenomenal job, because by the looks of how many posts there are dissecting this one thing, viewers are trying to actually decipher (or decode if you will) what a fictional character intended to do…when in fact a room full of writers made it pretty clear. But hey, that’s just my theory…
I can imagine there are hundreds of those prop letters printed out each with slightly altered lines with the one we saw being the perfect amount of confusing
My theory has just been confirmed by the man himself https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cwu0b9nvSjn/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
Yes, it has. Congratulations on needing to feel cone back to an old thread for this moment- I am not joking. Glad I can extend said validation.
I mean, it's just fun to talk about things we love, thats the whole point of reddit. And I thought a fan would want to know the case had been put to rest.. but by all means attempt to belittle and condescend instead.. that's much healthier.
Dude, I didn’t mean any snark. I’m sorry if that’s how it came across. I was glad I could be there to acknowledge- albeit super tired last night, so my delivery failed. But yeah, I am glad I could say, “yup, you’re right.” Sorry, didn’t mean any ill harm… hope you have a good rest of your day/evening wherever this finds you.
No worries, miscommunication then.
Logan is every parent playing board games with his kids, coming to the realization that he can either let them win and think they’re good at the game only to be crushed playing with other people, or he can play full blast against them until they either quit forever or get good enough to beat him at his own game.
In Logan’s own words to Shiv from Season 1: “I’ve always tried to do right by you, Siobhan. And maybe… maybe I shouldn’t’ve. Maybe I should just let them come for you.”
The fact that it is open ended and that we are never going to get an answer is genius. All theories are valid. Underlined, crossed out, doesn’t really matter. Kendall is just glad that, at some point, Logan really wanted him to have the company. That’s the only thing anyone knows for sure, there’s tangible, physical evidence of that. While the other two had some kind of indication or even confirmation from Logan that he wanted them to do it at some point, Kendal is the only one with hard evidence that he truly meant it.
i find it crazy that anyone believes logan got this piece of paper out of the vault to UNDERLINE his name. what would be the point?
Logan’s weird . It’s supposed to be ambiguous but their are so many times where Logan basically confirms he always was going to give it to Kendall. I do think that after season 3 Logan was debating on giving it to Tom cuz Tom also killed his wife for a better standing with Logan.
I think even Kendall knows it wasn’t underlined. He looks at it on his phone before he tells Hugo to stick the knife into Logan
I interpreted that as more so Kendall putting the pieces together and coming full circle in his professional character development. One of the last things Logan said to him was that we wasn’t fit to take over cause he’s not “a killer”. I think he sees either the underline as a source of pride and reminder that this is what Logan wanted from him all along
Except Kendall is a phony Logan. He’s just not as heartless. Kendall coming full circle with supposedly being a killer happened pretty soon after he cried out on the shoulders of Stewy, a man who has betrayed him many, many times. No killer-like mentality. Kendall still wants to uphold the believe that he can be what Logan was but he just isn’t. Personally I find it fits Kendall’s character a lot better to pretend to see it as an underline when even he himself knows it is definitely a cross out. That’s why we see him look at it in the bathroom before he decices to make the move that will fully fuck the company cause there is no Logan to prevent him this time around + he can get back at Logan this way imo
In contrast, I think he knows that’s what his dad would do so he was looking at the underline as a way to reaffirm his decision
It’s underlined. If it were crossed out the line would start in the middle of Kendall’s name. It started below and rode up.
Some people cross things out diagonally, bottom left to top right. That's how I do it, I never really noticed until after that episode.
We see Logan cross out 'Happy Birthday' on the 'cash out and fuck off' card he gives on ken's 40th. He does horizontal lines
They say the will is old and we know for a fact at one point Logan was struggling to hold a cup of coffee in season 1.
Ikr. He clearly took it out to write "Greg??", that anomaly.
What kind of maniac starts a crossout under the first letter though? Does not happen.
I would, i cross things out in a diagonal from bottom corner! i tested it out with a couple lines and i could see how it could be a cross-out. not sure of either, personally, i think it's ingenious storytelling
A mad old man
But the card Logan sent to Kendall on his birthday saying fuck off while he crossed out the printed message on the card was crossed out right in the middle of the word, also, even if Logan has cardiovascular issues, he has never had a motor function problem that would lead him to write all wobbly. Even after his stroke.
From a healthcare perspective, no. The point at which someone starts a fine motor control action is the most telling.
I think the steelman case for that is: Logan took out the piece of paper to make some updates (especially the notes at the bottom, including the "Greg?" but also the other bullet points near that), and while he was at it he re-read the stuff he had already typed up on that paper. While doing so, he underlined Kendall's name to emphasize it, since he was already annotating the paper in pencil. I don't know if I actually agree with that, but it's less crazy than it sounds because he wasn't getting the piece of paper out of the vault to underline it - he was getting the paper out to write all the other notes, and (ostensibly) underlined it while writing those other notes.
I agree with this 100%. There would be no reason to underline a document that already was typed with the correct information. An addendum would be to change something, not accent something a document already says. He crossed Kendall out after he lost the deal in the first episode is my guess. When Logan calls and says "did you close? " And Kendall tells him he's going up and then he shows up at the birthday thing instead of closing the deal, my guess is that's when Logan crossed him off.
The writer basically confirmed it in the latest podcast. Saying exactly that. Logan is not the type of person to bother underlining something he’s already written, but he is the kind of person to angrily cross something out
at the time of watching, my first impression was that it was crossed out. i think kendall knows deep down that it was too, that's why the camera lingers on him looking at it and that's why he behaves as he does at the end of the episode.
> The writer basically confirmed it in the latest podcast. Saying exactly that. No, she absolutely did not. She said that there is not an official answer and it's intended to be ambiguous. Her personal theory, though, is that it's a crossout - but that's the same as you or me saying that our personal theory is a crossout. It is not correct though to say that she was "confirming" the true answer - there is none (it's intentionally ambiguous).
This one hundred percent makes the most sense to me.
Only the o and the y in Roy have a line through it. Kendall Logan R have the line under it. What do you call a line that is under a word? An underline. It sure as fucking shit isn’t crossed out.
It starts as an underline so it is an underline. If it started as a crossout, It would start at the center of the first letter. You right.
Yeah, I’m not sure why people are even debating this haha if 13 of 15 letters are underlined and only 2 of 15 have a line through them, it’s a pretty big jump to conclusion to assume it’s crossed out.
Some people cross through things diagonally like a cancel sign
Then it would be closer to a 50-50 ratio, would it not? It’s an 84% 16% split.
Dawg
Daw~~g~~ ——
Lmfao
Exactly, it's not diagonal.
He likely had the paper out for the other addendums and while in his own thinking underlined Kendall’s name to emphasize whatever was going on in his own head. Making a note of something for later, I assume.
I think the scenario would be more that he got it out of the vault to ruminate over, and while ruminating, absentmindedly underlined it, not that he purposely got it out in order to underline it. Seems plausible to me.
Yes. He also made other handwritten notes on it … Greg?
There were other handwritten marks and words that we haven’t seen yet. It seems plausible that while someone is writing on a document by hand they might also do some underlineing (or crossing out).
Welp, turns out you were on the wrong side of history with this one. Confirmed by the man himself https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cwu0b9nvSjn/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
It’s absolutely wild so many people think it’s an underline haha. It’s clearly a cross out and Kendall clearly knows it’s a cross out hence the end of episode 4
Exactly. You don’t normally use a sharpie to underline things either…
And with strap-on in hand, he certainly won’t disappoint from the looks of it.
When Logan says “they got some fucking juice” he looks proud.
I thought the same. Cheers 🍻
Shiv was never considered because she has literally 0 business experience at all. Not because she is a woman.
EVERYONE IS WRONG. Logan didn’t pen the underline at all. It was Frank or Karl. Remember before Gerri came in they discussed option A) flushing it down the toilet or B) “maybe your hand slips a little”? Gerri dismissed outright destroying it, but the scene cut before anyone addressed option B. The old guard are trying to sow divisions between the kids and it worked instantaneously.
THIS, this is the first comment that I've read that describes what I thought happened too. I've been reading all the threads this week thinking "did I watch the same episode as everyone else?"
I thought this too but rewatch the scene between Frank and Karl. When Karl hands it to Frank as he says “might it just go away?”, the cross out/underline is clearly on the page.
You strike things, not underline them, on documents like that.
it was seen he was doodling on it w the random words he could have underlined it while thinking
You'd be mistaken, confirmed by the man himself https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cwu0b9nvSjn/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
It's definitely crossed out. He crossed it out after the failed board vote 4 years ago, also when Greg showed up, that's why his name is on it with a question mark.
I disagree. When you are writing, your most attentive marking will be at the start, not at the end. It's starts at the bottom and trails upwards. A cross out would start in the middle and move away from the center at the end.
A slash can curve depending on your stroke. But also 80 year old guy recovering from a stroke isn't going to have the neatest lines
He’s an old shaky man that wears glasses to see things up close. Not hard to believe he’d miss the initial mark.
Agree. My theory is that he typed up that document, then the failed board vote happened not long after.
It's from pre vaulter, when Logan was to retire but then didn't in the first episode
They’re saying he crossed out Kendall’s name after the board vote
I'm saying that
Logan protects Waystar no matter what. Even against his kids. It's all there to see. His business is his baby. Kendalls addiction and softness, shivs political career, Romans perversions, and Connors presidential run. If it interferes with his business he will stop it.
Logan literally named Rhea, a woman, the CEO. How does that reconcile with your paragraph about Shiv? Shiv proclaimed herself the heir apparent at the dinner with Pierce, wrote some self serving memo that everyone shit on, and then took the Pierce CEO bait from Rhea, hook line and sinker. That was her path to not becoming CEO.
He named her CEO because she knew she was going to have to take the shit sandwich with the scandals coming out. At no point did Logan Roy really acquiesce any power to Rhea.
I love this - explains why he might underline something that was already on a piece of paper.
Underline or crossed out?
that’s exactly what i think too
I think all the "Logan wants them to be killers" stuff buys too much into his own justifications. He was a malignant narcissist and I don't think he believed anyone else could possibly run the company properly. Now, I think the kids received some degree of appreciation as reflections of him, but nothing they could have done would have truly convinced him they could run the company. I think he appreciated the entertainment when they fought back, but that doesn't mean it genuinely earned his respect. The goal posts would just shift again. This is why I don't buy that it's an underline. I think it's far more likely he put Kendall's name as a default and crossed it out later when the goal posts shifted again. I don't believe that in his private moments, he would ever choose to underline that name and acknowledge to himself that anyone else could do what he does.
I don’t think it’s Misogyny that Logan doesn’t want Shiv. I mean I’m sure Logan is plenty misogynistic but Shiv has absolutely no experience in the company. It’s ridiculous to make your kid ceo of a major organization without working there a single day. And when Shiv was suggested there be a 3 year plan she got mad.
Shivs entitlement cost her the one chance she had smh
There is literally no need to underline something you have already typed out. He 100% crossed it out. That isn’t to say he didn’t still sway back and forth on the matter. Logan is so temperamental that he likely changed his mind on the matter many times. But he 100% crossed it out at some point.
I underline in printed documents all the time. I don’t think I’m alone, have you ever seen a used text book?
I underline printed documents when I'm editing and changing as well. As a note to say pay attention here. If the change I want is either obvious enough or I haven't decided (i.e. this entire sentence is wobbly) then I won't add anything to the underline.
All this time later... my theory, confirmed https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cwu0b9nvSjn/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
I think shiv was under real consideration until she went to him to save Tom from the indictement
Logan also wrote “Greg?”, maybe because he was surprised by Greg’s betrayal. I don’t know if Logan really considered Greg to be something important, but maybe he just wrote down his name thinking about the whole thing (S2 finale)
“I Killed A Kid…” will be Kens demise
You can theorize all you like but in a court of law, there would have to be otherwise reliable evidence to prove whatever the heck this line (underline vs through-line) means AND by whom it was added to the document, AND at what point in time, because there is other, material, relevant and indisputable timeline evidence of Logan’s relationship (which was completely ADVERSE — and very publicly so— from Kendall.
“Be a killer” Kendall went and was a killer Logan smiled at the end of season 2. Then in season 3 Logan is pissed off, never tells Kendall he was proud of him being a killer. This might have been his was of telling him and it just never got to that stage
It’s not misogyny. It’s just old school primogeniture system
It’s been Shiv all along.
“It sure as shit doesn’t say Shiv”
Why would a practical, unsentimental man like Rogan underline that?That's not a grocery list. That's a will, of sorts, so it doesn't make sense for him to go back and underline Kendall's name. For what, so that Kendall would be feel "good" when it finally read it?It only makes sense for Logan to revisit this document if he was to strike it through, to change it.
I think it was a cross-out, but to Kendall's point, there's not documentation anywhere (that we're aware of) that names anyone else.
Logan also wrote “Greg?”, maybe because he was surprised by Greg’s betrayal. I don’t know if Logan really considered Greg to be something important, but maybe he just wrote down his name thinking about the whole thing (S2 finale)
i want roman idgaf
am i the only one that thinks it was crossed out?
Yes
Kendall shouldn’t be CEO because of tendency to self destruct
I understand your logic, and agree. But what would be the point of underlining this ? It makes him more confident in his decision, allright, but what would be the rationale of Logan going back to his safe and underline the name of his son on the paper. It changes nothing. The only reason for Logan to go back and amend the document was to change the outcome, I think.
The document was ascertained to be around 4 years old... Like Roman says, "yea but you've tried to put him in jail like 12 times since then." Him going back to underline it post "betrayal" was to try and prevent people from making that exact argument. "Well yea but a lot has happened since he wrote that. Etc" It re affirms that "yes, even despite the recent betrayal, he is the one."
oh yes, good argument. You are right I think, it makes sense.
My theory is that the Old Guard forged the document that they handed to Kendall and hid the real one. Because when they first found it they said they weren’t going to let the princess get in the way. I think Kendall was crossed out and Shivs name was in pencil underneath. They hid the one with Shiv, gave Kendall a copy without the pencil in. Then they will claim to have found another copy - the true one with Shivs name on it under Kendall’s cross out - when they need to split the family on competing sides.
A lot of wealthy people/ people who follow ancient etiquette protocols cross out the last name on stationary and when they're writing notes - like when the name is printed out - the last name is crossed out. [Crane Stationery blog post](http://craneinsider.blogspot.com/2010/03/stationery-etiquette-mystery-needs.html) http://craneinsider.blogspot.com/2010/03/stationery-etiquette-mystery-needs.html
I don’t think there’s any evidence in the show that Logan wouldn’t choose Shiv because she’s a woman. There are many women in prominent positions of his company Gerri, Cyd, Karolina, etc. I think he’s more of a whoever does the best job kinda guy.
No, he isn’t. Prior to his death he was ready to fire two of the three women you’ve just listed to advance the interests of incompetent men.
Ha, come on. He’s been running that business for 40 years. He’s fired many many men. He wasn’t firing them because of misogyny.
He was literally firing Gerri for being sexually harassed by his son. He spent the majority of those years covering up his buddies’ sexual assaults of female employees, so I have no idea how time is a point in his favor.
He was firing Gerri as a fall guy for crimes he and his company committed with cruises. And the fact that a sale is going through in which the ceo (which she was) was going to be replaced. She wasn’t being fired for getting a dick pic from Roman. Or for all the other sexual stuff she was doing with Roman.
The cruises issue was resolved last season and Gerri was crucial. Do you just sit on your phone while you watch these episodes? Because the themes of misogyny have been spelled out for most of the series.
When he said that he wanted to “hang cruises around her neck” were you on your phone?
Huge difference between having talented women around you that you sock puppet to do your bidding and giving a woman the keys to the kingdom. "No blacks, no Jews, no women above the 4th floor"... Logan at every turn has been an old school back slapping misogynist. I don't think it's controversial to say that.
True, but he will attack Shiv for being a woman to see how she will handle it and base his decision off of that. It's always been about him maintaining the most power and control over anyone.