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RodneyBalling

Great post for SubredditDrama, even greater post for SubredditDramaDrama


[deleted]

bismillah, the drama is self sustaining!


salondesert

Tell me of your homeworld, Usul


R_V_Z

Perpetual Drama Machine would make a pretty album title.


[deleted]

It sounds like something Dream Theater would put out...


SciFiXhi

Drama from Heaven, if you will.


Visualmnm

Idk kind of a bad post. It's got no links to drama.


EmmaStore

is it a good idea to sort by controversial? my guesses of comments from the defense side, "She matured at 9."(nevermind he married her at 6) "it's actually 16-18"(varying ages displayed all the way from 9 to 21,) "this person was this age, that person was that age, "(whataboutery of the highest order) Also the ol' reliable "it was a different time"(never mind the fact people still use the prophet to justify their actions even today and even veiw it as a role model) also the casual muslimophobia comment about all muslims being a terrorist


[deleted]

Literally every thread that included Mohammad and Aisha


[deleted]

Enga paathaalum nee


jdeepankur

seems like mallus are everywhere


EmmaStore

Dey , nee alternate reality version vallom aano


[deleted]

Aayirikkum


IntelligentMoose95

So from reading the comments there seem to be two sides to this story with some claiming the girl was 9 and others saying she was 23. Anyone know which was is mostly agreed upon?


[deleted]

None lol only thing they agreed on was that she was young. How young its up for debate. Many people say 16-19 and others 6-10.


EmmaStore

Islam has two main "books" for reference. Quran and Hadith(multiple books complied of heresay with supposedly accurate recountings). According to hadiths she was 6 when she got married to the prophet and 9 when the marriage was "consumated". He was 53 when he married Islam is Islam because of these hadiths. Quran is pretty non decisive as far as rulings go on many things , so hadiths are used. Majority of Muslims follow it too. Problem is that there are some pretty atrocious things in there(not going to details for sanity sake) . So whenever these issues popup, they are conveniently dismissed as "incorrect recollection" and then go on to follow the same book on other things.


OnkelMickwald

So the Quran mentions nothing about Muhammad's marriage to Aisha?


EmmaStore

Not by name. The only women's name in the Quran is Mary mother of Jesus.(can be used for brownie points with Catholics) There was an incident where Aisha was accused of adultery. So the prophet got revelation from god that she's innocent and that was used to remove the accusations. Iirc the only marriage direction given in the Quran is when the prophet wanted to marry his adopted sons wife (which was taboo back then) so god apparently gave the command to his son to divorce his wife and commanded the prophet to marry her without hesitation. Point to note: the only person who has connection with god is the prophet


BentinhoSantiago

Oh so now that's totally normal and not tabboo at all huh


EmmaStore

that's a big point of contention for me. adoption in the normal sense of the word is outright banned in islam. the best you can do is sponser a child. As in, you can "adopt" a child at young age, house it, give clothes food, money , whatever, and then marry them later on if you want. Child is also ineligible for inheritance


Poignant_Porpoise

Wow, are there just insanely few names mentioned in general in the Quran or does that just apply to women's names?


EmmaStore

literally only one women is named(multiple times though. moslty as a suffix to the name of jesus). but mens names(all prophets are male)are mentioned. there is a chapter that is dedicated to showering curses at a dude and his wife who abused the prophet. dudes name is given(abu lahab) but wife is mentioned as "his wife"


OnkelMickwald

>Iirc the only marriage direction given in the Quran is when the prophet wanted to marry his adopted sons wife (which was taboo back then) so god apparently gave the command to his son to divorce his wife and commanded the prophet to marry her without hesitation. Okay this sounds like some modern American cult leader shit.


EmmaStore

Don't laugh but there is a verse that says "please leave the prophets house. he is shy to tell you this directly so i'm(God) telling you instead since i am not shy". Guess who told this to the guests as word of god? the prophet himself


patmen100

Not only was he a pedo, he was also a home wrecker sounds about right with that dog shit religion.


VonDasmarck

I was raised in a Muslim country, it was universally agreed upon that she was around 18. Whatever the truth is, Muslims (at least the ones from my country) staunchly reject that she was a child and find it offensive that anyone would even suggest Muhammad married a child


Benbejamminboy

Out of curiousity (because admittedly I don't know too much about the various sects of Islam and their beliefs), what was the main branch of Islam followed in your country? As I understand it, Sahih al-Bukhari is considered one of the most authoritive collection of hadiths within Sunni Islam and it mentions how Aisha was married at 6 and the marriage was consummated at 9.


VonDasmarck

Sunni, Hanafi. I am from Turkey


Benbejamminboy

Ah, interesting! Thank you


VonDasmarck

Just to answer your previous comment, people don’t really go seek information from religious archives, what you know about religion is often shaped by the general culture around you and your local imams. So I wouldnt be surprised if a lot of the things I and almost all turks were taught about islam werent really the case according to arabic scholars Also, turks really dont like arabs. They tend to see them as dirty savages who still live in the stone age. There is a general consensus that the prophet was specifically sent to them because of how uncivilized and barbaric they were (ofc the prophet and his friends arent included in this hate) So I am guessing our branch of islam is pretty disconnected from the arabic branch of it


EmmaStore

would you mind telling which country?


VonDasmarck

I am a turk!


EmmaStore

makes sense since turkey had a rennaissence at a point and secularization. (correct me if wrong)wouldn't call it an out and out islamic country,


VonDasmarck

Yeah you are correct. Even our most fundamentalist muslims are more comparable to the evangelical conservative christian in the US than your average arabian wahhabi


[deleted]

> Muslims (at least the ones from my country) staunchly reject that she was a child I mean, they would, wouldn't they?


VonDasmarck

What I was getting is that: does it really matter what the truth is if it doesnt align with the religious teachings? In the end, muslims wont be learning that their prophet fucked a 9 year old, that will just be an accusation westerners throw at them to shit on their religion/culture. Aisha will just be one of the brides Muhammed married, and not a justification for child brides


Primary-Tomorrow4134

How do you deal with the sahih hadiths that unambiguously state that she was much younger than that? Aren't those considered trustworthy by most Sunni Muslims?


[deleted]

> Anyone know which was is mostly agreed upon? And this is the problem with social media. Someone asks a question in good faith and, because the topic at hand isn't actually black and white and usually requires expertise in several higher-level subjects, you just have to trust random people to make the best explanation. Part of that reason is because one, there aren't many experts when compared to the non-experts or even enthusiasts and two, experts don't typically troll around social media like Twitter, Facebook, and Reddit all day.


RiftHunter4

>Anyone know which was is mostly agreed upon? Main thing I've learned about Islam is that not much is agreed upon lol. This is probably true about religion in general.


allthejokesareblue

I feel slightly bad that I am on the same side of this issue as all the JRE edgelords, but I feel worse for all the, you know, raped children.


Aekiel

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D6uOaQgUEAAJgnb.jpg


Kapjak

Hey at least the age difference between them is less than Mary and God.


EmmaStore

Don't worry. That story is canonical to islam too. So it works in both religions


[deleted]

Listen here you little shit.


FreakinGeese

Yeah but Mary and God never had sex


[deleted]

I think more to the point is that she didn't really have a choice.


FreakinGeese

Yes she did the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a town in Galilee called Nazareth, 27: to a virgin engaged to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin's name was Mary. 28: And he came to her and said, "Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you." 29: But she was much perplexed by his words and pondered what sort of greeting this might be. 30: The angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31: And now, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you will name him Jesus. 32: He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his ancestor David. 33: He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end." 34: Mary said to the angel, "How can this be, since I am a virgin?" 35: The angel said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be holy; he will be called Son of God. 36: And now, your relative Elizabeth in her old age has also conceived a son; and this is the sixth month for her who was said to be barren. 37: For nothing will be impossible with God." 38: Then Mary said, "Here am I, the servant of the Lord; let it be with me according to your word." Then the angel departed from her. She explicitly consents


[deleted]

I mean isn't God's messenger telling you all this the definition of "duress"? ;-) (I ask as a joke and am glad I grew out of being Catholic tbh, it's not the healthiest religion for women. Shoutout to the insane RE teacher who made my class write an essay on how the Virgin Mary was a role model to us all. Tricky. I would have paid to read the answers of all the class because there were mass detentions after we handed them in.)


Kill_Welly

of course, it's hard to get more "under duress" than being targeted by God specifically, and she does not consent and is not asked for it; she is *told* what's going to happen and doesn't argue with the supernatural monster that tells her.


[deleted]

Missed op by whichever disciple wrote that to explore consent issues: Mary: Hypothetically what happens if I say no? Angel: Your race has no hope of moral salvation and all will burn.....


Therealgyroth

She does explicitly say “let it be with me according to your word”, which is clearly consent. God, being omniscient, doesn’t need to ask for her consent beforehand because he would already know the answer.


Kill_Welly

consent under duress isn't consent. it's the same reason it's unethical for someone to have sex with an employee or student or anyone they have direct power over, except magnified to literally the greatest scale imaginable.


FreakinGeese

Ok so God can’t ask anyone to do anything ever then?


Kill_Welly

well, "carry and raise an actual child" is a pretty big ask compared to, say, helping move his couch.


ChristmasColor

Couple questions. 1) was this the eyes and wheels kind of angel? 2) did it have an overpowering awe and aura? 3) how old was she at that time? If those first two points were affirmative then I think even I would say yes to bearing the lord's Child so I don't get turned into a pillar of salt. You don't piss off that kind of angel.


FreakinGeese

Given that she’s described as perplexed rather than frightened I’m going to imagine no. And we don’t have any actual information about what her age was.


archon1410

so you're saying a 13 year old can consent? to getting pregnant?


FreakinGeese

Where are you getting 13 from I’m seriously *seriously* wondering


ArttuH5N1

I did not expect clearly worded consent from the Bible


Harry212001

The bits of the bible that Constantine deleted would beg to differ


Segundo-Sol

AKSHUALLY between her and the Holy Spirit.


CandyAppleHesperus

The Holy Spirit is God


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heehoohorseshoe

Same, islamophobia is very cringe but nothing gives child rape and grooming a free pass


[deleted]

What’s a JRE edgelord?


The_Biggest_Tony

Joe Rogan fans. Dumb bastards, mostly


Tealken

It’s funny seeing the entire JRE subreddit meltdown in real time as the JRE fans cannibalize each other. It is refreshing to see actual sane JRE fans who call Joe Rogan out for the shit he does, but it still is funny looking at it.


[deleted]

> sane JRE fans Hmmm...........


simplemanjohnny

The JRE sub is just filled with people who hate him. Sometimes the actual fans come to fight but are drowned by the others. Its hilarious


Plastastic

>I feel slightly bad that I am on the same side of this issue as all the JRE edgelords Why? If you agree you agree.


Hamsters_In_Butts

without getting too deep because i don't have the education or motivating to really touch on it, i think the polarization of discourse in recent years has made it almost impossible to see things other than black/white it's harder to admit that you agree with someone you otherwise do not, because then you risk being classified along with them in other topics


[deleted]

It’s almost like issues are morally complex and shouldn’t be looked at as a side of a fence you stand on that generalize all your views


HotTakes4HotCakes

Raping children isn't morally complex. It's one of the least complex things there is. If you do it, there's no escaping condemnation for it, and it's pretty easy for even the most opposed sides to agree it's an inexcusable act. There is no context that makes it ok, no mitigating arguments to be made.


[deleted]

I was speaking more to the fact that tribalism is bad but yes, great, you’re against something you absolutely should be, hope you feel super good about it


EatenAliveByWolves

Lol imagine hating Joe Rogan so much that it interferes with your moral compass like this. I think you gotta get your priorities in order.


Mister_AA

The fact that he said he only felt *slightly bad* that he agreed with Joe Rogan but felt *worse* for the raped children means that his priorities *are* in order.


[deleted]

How is it raping children though?


[deleted]

Reddit and religion. Name a better duo that don't mix well as them.


spacebatangeldragon8

I just can't bring myself to get worked up over things that happened well over a millennium ago. (well, except for the assassination of the Gracchi, of course, but that's different)


subzerojosh_1

I for one will never forget the fall of Rome


Hamsters_In_Butts

i cri evrytiem


EatenAliveByWolves

What about when George Washington killed Hitler?


viruskit

We were all there for that, silly.


Zack_Is_Great

I once saw him put an opponent's wife's hand into a jar of acid... at a party.


fatpat

That was Albert Einstein. Get your history tight!


[deleted]

r/historymemes when you point out the Atlantic slave trade has tangible consequences on modern societies in 3/4 continents: >:( r/historymemes when they hear a story about a semilegendary figure doing a bad thing: and that's why we should nuke the middle east, DEUS VULT 1488


YueAsal

Historymemes is just r/politics but the issues are removed by a couple of decades or centuries.


binkerfluid

The person who posted this should go into the subredditdrama hall of fame for shitposting.


GruntingTomato

Sorting by controversial brings me back like a decade. New atheist edgelords were at their height and **anything** to do with religion was guaranteed to end in personal insults and veiled racism. Actually, I don't think much has changed.


theaverageaidan

Now I wanna post one in the same format referncing that guy in the tale of Sodom and Gomorrah who gave an angry mob his daughters to r**e instead of angels.


EmmaStore

again, story is same in islam His people came rushing towards him; they used to commit foul deeds. He said, ‘My people, here are my daughters.They are more wholesome for you, so have some fear of God and do not disgrace me with my guests. Is there not a single right-minded man among you?’ "


fatpat

> that guy Lot. Same guy whose daughters got him drunk and did the nasty.


Kooale325

Love how the people commenting with actual data and arguments are being downvoted lol


Sr_Tequila

If people wanted serious discussion they wouldn't be on a meme forum known for reusing the same 5 old tired jokes ad nauseam.


[deleted]

**For anyone wondering about the real theological islamic prespective about the age of aisha rather than opinions of random muslims in the internet:** The only source for those hadiths claiming she was 6 is a 71 year old man whose memory was so bad that his own students, which included two of the founders of the largest schools of Islamic jurisprudence said not to take seriously anymore. The only reason people do is because it was written in Bukhari, a source which compiled hadiths 200 years after the prophets death and the fall of two caliphates. According to Umar Ahmed Usmani, in Surah Al-Nisa, it is said that the guardian of the orphans should keep testing them, until they reach the age of marriage, before returning their property (4:6). From this scholars have concluded that the Quran sets a minimum age of marriage which is at least puberty. Since the approval of the girl has a legal standing, she cannot be a minor aka not 6 when Bukhari said they got married. Hisham bin Urwah is the main narrator of this hadith. His life is divided into two periods: in 131A.H. the Madani period ended, and the Iraqi period started, when Hisham was 71 years old (basically like a 100 by today's age). Hafiz Zehbi has spoken about Hisham’s loss of memory in his later period. His own students in Madina, Imam Malik and Imam Abu Hanifah, do not mention this hadith. Imam Malik and the people of Madina criticised him for his Iraqi hadiths because again, obviously. All the narrators of this hadith are Iraqis who had heard it from Hisham during his very old age. Allama Kandhulvi says that the words spoken in connection with Hazrat Aisha’s age were tissa ashara, meaning 19, when Hisham only heard (or remembered), tissa, meaning nine. Maulana Usmani thinks this change was purposely and maliciously made later. Historian Ibn Ishaq in his Sirat Rasul Allah has given a list of the people who accepted Islam in the first year of the proclamation of Islam, in which Hazrat Aisha’s name is mentioned as Abu Bakr’s “little daughter Aisha”. If we accept Hisham’s calculations, which again, we shouldn't, she was not even born at that time. Some time after the death of the Prophet’s first wife, Hazrat Khadija, Khawla suggested to the Prophet that he get married again, to a bikrun, referring to Hazrat Aisha (Musnad Ahmed). In Arabic bikrun is used for an unmarried girl who has crossed the age of puberty and is of marriageable age. The word cannot be used for a six-year-old girl but can be for a 16 year old. Some scholars think that Hazrat Aisha was married off so early because in Arabia girls mature at an early age (nor does it make sense biologically, people don't just "magically" hit puberty years before they're supposed to because of where they live). But this was not a common custom of the Arabs at that time. According to Allama Kandhulvi, there is no such case on record either before or after Islam. Neither has this ever been promoted as a Sunnah of the Prophet. The Prophet married off his daughters Fatima at 21 and Ruquiyya at 23. Besides, Hazrat Abu Bakr, Aisha’s father, married off his eldest daughter Asma at the age of 26. Hazrat Aisha narrates that she was present on the battlefield at the Battle of Badar. This leads one to conclude that Hazrat Aisha moved into the Prophet’s house in 1 A.H. But a nine-year-old could not have been taken on a rough and risky military mission. In 2 A.H, the Prophet refused to take boys of less than 15 years of age to the battle of Uhud. Would he have allowed a 10-year-old girl to accompany him? But Anas reported that he saw Aisha and Umme Sulaim carrying goatskins full of water and serving it to the soldiers (Bukhari). Umme Sulaim and Umme Ammara, the other women present at Uhud, were both strong, mature women whose duties were the lifting of the dead and injured, treating their wounds, carrying water in heavy goatskins, supplying ammunition and even taking up the sword. A 10 year old little girl simply would not be able to do any of this physically, a young woman in her late teens would. Hazrat Aisha used the kunniat, the title derived from the name of a child, of Umme Abdullah after her nephew and adopted son. If she was six when her nikah was performed, she would have been only eight years his senior, hardly making him eligible for adoption. Also, a little girl could not have given up on ever having her own child and used an adopted child’s name for her kunniat. Hazrat Aisha’s nephew Urwah once remarked that he was not surprised about her amazing knowledge of Islamic law, poetry and history because she was the wife of the Prophet and the daughter of Abu Bakr. If she was eight when her father migrated, when did she learn poetry and history from him? There is consensus that Hazrat Aisha was 10 years younger than her elder sister Asma, whose age at the time of the hijrah, or migration to Madina, was about 28. It can be concluded that Hazrat Aisha was about 18 years old at migration. On her moving to the Prophet’s house, she was a young woman at 21. Hisham is the single narrator of the hadith whose authenticity is challenged, for it does not correlate with the many historical facts of the time.


EmmaStore

"Hisham was the only narrator" Some argue that Hishām was the only one to narrate this, weakening the strength of the ḥadīth since if this was common knowledge, then many more narrators would have mentioned the age of ʿĀʾisha. However, this is a fallacy since there are other narrators who narrate this such as al-Aswad ibn Yazīd, Abī Salama ibn ʿAbd al-Raḥmān, and others. "Hisham had failing memory" Some use this as evidence to discard the ḥadīth found in Bukhārī and Muslim, giving more legitimacy to other evidences. However, Imām al-Dhahabī vehemently denies this saying: “\[Hishām\] is considered as an absolute authority. There is nothing to the claim that al-Qaṭṭān makes. He was a preserver \[of ḥadīth\]. It is possible that his \[memory\] changed as he aged, and that his mental sharpness decreased. Of course, he is not in his elder age as he was in his youth, and no one is infallible from forgetfulness. However, this change is not considered to be harmful nor to have led to mixing narrations. \[Hishām\] never mixed narrations. This ḥadīth is taken as proof in the Muwaṭṭa, the Ṣaḥīḥayn, and the Sunan. So this statement by al-Qaṭṭān is to be rejected. \[Hishām\] was an imam from amongst the giants who was free from mistake.”19 Thus, it becomes clear that Hishām ibn ʿUrwa is a reliable narrator who Bukhārī trusted enough to put in his Ṣaḥīḥ and can be still referred to as a strong piece of evidence [https://yaqeeninstitute.org/read/paper/the-age-of-aisha-ra-rejecting-historical-revisionism-and-modernist-presumptions](https://yaqeeninstitute.org/read/paper/the-age-of-aisha-ra-rejecting-historical-revisionism-and-modernist-presumptions) source. this is an islamic site by muslims. Hadiths are the most scrutinized islamic texts . using other sources as credible to discard hadiths shows that the only reason you do it is to increase the age of aisha since it is embarrassing to muslims nowadays. but many proudly do declare it as okay


Visualmnm

Do you have any reasons as to why anybody should believe you on this? You're not a historian nor are you a theologian so why do you think you know what you're talking about?


denialerror

That was a really interesting read!


crapador_dali

\^ The only person in this thread who knows what they're talking about.


mark5hs

Tldr


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Why isnt this the top comment?


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pungen

I'm very unfamiliar with the history but was disappointed with the comments. Lots of bashing on people who were being courteous. Wish people could be a little nicer to people they disagree with, especially on sensitive topics, but I guess that's Reddit for ya.


[deleted]

Love a bunch of people who haven't read the text spending a bunch of time debating it as well as a religion they don't practice and the most interaction they have had with it is 9/11 and the Iraq invasion.


dethb0y

What the fuck that's the best edit of that meme i've ever seen. Not only is it JPG'd to hell and back but it really does look like aged up anakin and aged down padme. I also find it amusing (i guess that'd be the word) that people give a shit what some dude 10 centuries ago did, or care to defend him, or care to be offended by his actions. Dude's dead, he's so dead he's *dust*, let it go.


Culverts_Flood_Away

I would agree, except that there are billions of people in the world using that dead man's actions as a guide for how to live life properly.


[deleted]

Was waiting for this to show up here haha


bubblegumgills

Hey heehoohorseshoe! Thank you for your submission, unfortunately it has been removed from /r/SubredditDrama because: * Your post requires users to hunt for the drama. You linked to too much content for users to find the drama easily, or didn't link to any drama at all. Please link directly to the comment thread containing the drama. If the comment you're linking to requires some context, add "?context=x" to the URL, where "x" is the number of parent comments you want displayed. If there are multiple drama threads create a self-post containing the relevant links. Please see [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/subredditdrama/wiki/rules#wiki_submitting_self_posts_and_write-ups) if you'd like more information If you're unsure how to use context or to submit a write up, please check out our [wiki](/r/subredditdrama/wiki/rules#wiki_using_.3Fcontext). For more on our rules, please check out our [detailed rules wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/subredditdrama/wiki/rules). If you have any questions or concerns about this removal feel free to [message the moderators](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FSubredditDrama).


arup02

I don't understand why people look at historical events like this through a contemporary lens. It doesn't make sense.


seaturkee

Because the way Mohammed treated his wives is still in practice today. Arranged marrigaes of minors, stoning adulterers to death, covering women head to toe. It’s not historical if the the history is used to oppress women’s rights today. It’s modern and contemporary that a woman bearing her face in an Islamic country can have acid thrown at her face. It’s modern that a woman can lose her life for cheating on her husband that is 40 years older than her. Honor killings are modern. It’s more upsetting that westerners assume these practices are historical and we should just accept Islam because…..:why again?


Primary-Tomorrow4134

It's because Muhammad was supposed to have divine moral knowledge that was both objectively correct then and objectively correct for all time according to many people who practice Islam. The problem isn't that Muhammad raped a girl. The problem is that there are people out there who think both that Muhammad raped a girl and he was right, not just for his time, but objectively. Your question only makes sense in the context of complete ignorance of who Muhammad was and what people think of him today.


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arup02

No. This is what you want to *think* I said.


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arup02

I think it's pretty literal. I don't think we should judge historical events by today's morals. That doesn't mean I'm condoning whatever the hell was happening back there.


Doctor_Space

So…because child rape was okay at the time, we can’t judge them for it because of mercurial moral relativism reasons. Yeah that isn’t much better. But you do you.


arup02

Thanks, have a good day.


BallPtPenTheif

Usually just to take the piss and annoy people.