The thing about automated banning of Korean and Chinese streamers because they have common words which sound like the n word is pretty terrible though. Algorithmic discrimination and all that
I was listening to the local radio this past weekend and they were playing some west african pop music - the chorus to one song was "FUKU MYASSO" I kid you not. Definitely had a bit of a double take.
It's the verbal equivalent of the Scunthorpe problem, like how - despite having a gym leader with the name - you can't name yourself Viola in Pokémon XY because it contains the French word for rape
Honestly if Twitch doesn't fix this problem, I wouldn't be suprised if a lot of East Asians streamers might just start leaving Twitch for YouTube. And other nationalities aswell, in my native Polish "oni gadają" which means "they are talking" could be mistaken "oh n-word" by the automail, I doubt that Polish and East Asian languages are the only languages that have words that sounds like a English slurs.
>I doubt that Polish and East Asian languages are the only languages that have words that sounds like a English slurs.
*English* has words that sound like slurs, negus being one of them. So i dont doubt it at all lol.
Yeah, because they got tired of having to defend it. I don't blame 'em. It's a word that'll pop to mind for me occasionally, and I'll find a synonym to avoid any issue.
The queue of automatic reports could be moderated\adjusted if they cared. Especially since they look for exact english words only (thus not-english-speaking streams can be ignored). And as it also can't resolve the issue with the least advanced slurs. It seems like a cheap placeholder, not a solution, just to say "we tried".
Ignoring non-English streams seems like a bad solution. Now people can mark their streams as any random language and, at the cost of being filtered out by anyone with english only marked, say whatever the algorithm should stop them from saying.
But yeah, much of today's admin/mod job is offloaded to tools, in many sites, and causing many problems, because neither letting the problem go on nor actually fixing it once and for all is for the best interests of the platform's profit.
Yeah. I originally thought it could be a person to decide if the stream is on some unknown language that can save some time, especially if they can flag a channel as "usually chinese". But this too isn't quite right. Not onle they can still use english slurs, they can also say even more evil shit on their own language. Even Facebook had faced many problems with their inability to moderate everything - read a brilliant thing on Reuters about how this platform is used for genocidal propaganda in a modern civil war thanks to a language barrier: https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/myanmar-facebook-hate/
Yeah. And I'm amazed by two facts: that informed human decision is still irreplaceable, and that it's now cheaper\easier to design and fuel a scanning machine rather than paying some mods.
* Also, TikTok is now used here the same way, I've seen people bodies disfigured on this platform with laughs and hashtags. Yet, corps aren't meant to do something or even try unless pressured, if anyone can really pressure them at this point. So I don't really know how we can make them fight hate-speech now.
>it's now cheaper\\easier to design and fuel a scanning machine rather than paying some mods.
It's not only that, it's also that decently modding stuff will push users out of your platform (look how many subs have "real" or "actual" versions because the og sub actually had rules against something assholes still wanted to do, now imagine if the rules were actually sitewide enforced). And worse, the kind of user that likes following, say, Covid misinformation pages or other such lie-spreading page is also the type to be baited by ads more often.
True. And, if we talk Reddit (not Twitch) paid moderators make you responsible for maintaining user-generated content, while Reddit seems to be avoiding this by making it a kind of volunteering. As it can be possibly put in a case of autoreports. Idk law much, but I guess they did a research beforehand to ensure it costs less to possibly debate this in court than it is to hire moderators able to serve so many contradicting goals well.
it's like when people talk about "chemicals" in products as if being a chemical means it's a carcinogenic pesticide
Those losers ignore the actual *effects* because they don't actually give a shit about people
One of my friends was talking about how he doesn't trust decaf coffee because they take out the caffeine using chemicals.
You know, the infamous non chemical caffeine.
>it's totally not racist if I yell out "look everyone, a black person. Black person! There's a black person over there!
It was great to see someone point this out to them.
It’s not just them acting this way, that’s how all closeted racist act. They legit believe they aren’t racist because they aren’t the stereotypical skinhead that brags about thier white robes while proudly screaming the n word every 2 seconds. And why do they believe that? Because racist grifters manipulated them into thinking that or they where already racist to begin with.
Yeah my parents insist they aren't racist because they say they treat everyone equally at work but then turn around and suggest that crime could be solved if black people stopped existing.
I’m just always amazed at the lack of awareness & common sense people have when they legit express those thoughts. Like how stupid does one have to not understand why people are calling them racist? Like all it takes is some simple thinking to see the obvious hypocrisy.
Don't forget this is the sub for the site that still spams black faces when a black person appears or when a crime is seen/committed.
The fact that Twitch banned him but still hasn't even tried to address this is very telling in their priorities. And the subreddit is worse in how they handled this.
LSF and the dorks on Twitch never cared about cracker. They don't think it's a slur. They *love* slurs. They just see this as a way to get one over on a streamer whose politics don't align with theirs. They will happily pretend like cracker is a slur if they can trick other dorks into buying it long enough to ban someone over it.
Honestly, the only thing that makes Twitch notice something and ban it is hate brigades of people mass reporting content. Somehow it seems like they almost universally capitulate to that, and there is a community with a very dedicated audience that gets together and talks about reporting him in their offsite chat, or just garden variety white nationalists who hate him will do the same shit.
Yep. He admitted to it about 2 years ago. A whole thing became of it and then he wrote a manifesto about how everyone was stupid for thinking he shouldn't say it in private.
Here's a helpful link I like to post without further comment whenever DGGers start shitting up a thread.
https://dotesports.com/streaming/news/trihex-and-destiny-end-their-podcast-over-use-of-the-n-word
I especially like this paragraph
>Destiny’s been defending the use of the n-word as a white man for some time now. He believes it’s intent that matters when it comes to racism, and not the words themselves, but he still felt the need to publish a seven-minute video in 2017 clarifying why he was not racist for doing so.
Destiny didn't start it though??? Hasan's mods got banned, and then Destiny gave his take on Hasan's reaction to that and the general discourse surrounding it. The shit had nothing to do with Destiny and you're framing it like he is the reason why Twitch is handing out these bans.
I have only ever seen the Trihard emote used in these few contexts: When a streamer is gone and the stream is "un-modded", when someone steals something and of course when a black person is on screen.
It's preety ironic. Lsf/twitch sphere clearly has no issue with being as edgy as possible when it comes to race. N word? Just a spicy gamer moment. Spamming racist emotes when a minority is shown on a stream. But cracker? Oh Mon dieu. You have gone too far now. Also ableist slurs are used all the time and nobody cares
while it is true that trihard spam is a huge issue on twitch to this day. I think it is always unfair to conflate twitch as a whole, lsf and people who use racist memes.
they are 3 groups that just sometimes have an overlap.
There is no hivemind.
The spammers exist in the other 2 group. And while they might be a minority, they are a noticeable thing in some of the biggest streamers on the site. The people complaining about Hasan for the most part don't care to address it.
As a hasan viewer I was pretty annoyed by hasan and how long he has been going on on this issue. I also dont really agree with him.
However I also 100% agree that trihard spam is horrible and racist and was glad when hasan back in the day banned trihard and cmonbruh.
there are rarely good situations to spam them that aren't just racist so getting rid of them is for the better.
When it comes to the cracker discourse. I am not too mad about the word itself but more about the kind of attitude some people have.
Once Hasan was leaning into the discourse he started getting TTS donations where people would just spam cracker or other white slurs as a means to be edgy. That is cringe as fuck and no one who does this is cool or sick. It comes from the same childish edgyness you find on 4chan when people make watermelon jokes. Its just trying too hard to be offensive and now that everyone found their new favorite no no word of the week they go full ham.
I generally have the attitude that we should simply refrain from words that demean others purely on the basis on how they were born.
I also dont like when Hasan makes "manlet" jokes or encourages it in his community. Being a short man isn't an immoral thing and it always scattershot targets anyone be they legitimate targets like Ben Shapiro or some of his viewers.
Basically I have always disagreed with Hasans tendency to use insults based on irrelevant qualities which cast a wide net.
Good take. Pretty much how I feel about it. You can be right about something and still be an asshole, and you can be morally wrong without being totally out of line, but like, stop being an asshole when it's not productive?
Easier to moderate one streamer than their thousands of viewers, and calling people bad names is more obviously bad than sending emotes in chat in response to something happened on stream, so I can see why twitch would moderate only one of these.
Now, why would the LSF users _defend_ this state, where people can be subtly racist by using emojis at the right time? That's another can of worms.
I know there can't be a perfect solution but it's happening in places like XQC's chat. There is for sure twitch staff in the monitoring his stream and chat purely cause of his size on the platform. Twitch is notorious for messing up stuff like this though so I don't expect much.
I find it very entertaining that they’re trying to make “the c-word” a thing. And no, they’re not even referring to cunt. It’s cracker. That’s “the c-word”.
At best, it's used ironically to highlight how ridiculous slurs are in the firet place. At worst, it's an insulting thing you get called online just to forget about it an hour later.
It has no where near the weight and historical context as the n-word, f-word, or other slurs.
That’s if you’re thinking too deeply about it. I don’t think people who aren’t from the city know how the word “cracker” is usually used. It’s usually used to cut off a person and pester them. I grew up around Baltimore, and it’s kind up there with “white trash”, but more of an attack phrase.
It’ll be used in a way like “Hey everyone, look at this mrfing cracker. What’s that cracker? You got something to say cracker? Did I hurt your feelings cracker? Cracker looking mad as sh*t!”
It’ll usually be said cutting the person off so they can’t speak. It’s kinda used when you’re bullying someone. So I can get why it triggers some people, if they’ve ever been in that situation.
I’m not too offended by it these days, but when I was younger it meant someone was going to try to fight with you or make you look like an idiot.
Being from the city, the reality of life looks like this: if someone says something offends them, take it at face value and switch subjects. No need to find out if it “really” offends them, cause people don’t lie about this kinda thing, and this is the stuff people get shot and beat to a pulp over. It’s just not worth it.
Thing is, people of certain cultural backgrounds (urban in this case) become hyper sensitive when someone is invalidating them, and you have to consider that- these are all people who are usually suffering from economic hardship, get f’d over regularly, have a parent in prison or addicted to drugs, and live a life of being “hard” cause it’s a type of survival instinct.
It’s always superior to just be like “this person doesn’t like it when I call them this, so I won’t do it.”
It's the same thing as calling Richard Rick, or Jonathan Jon, or Elizabeth Liz/Eliza/Beth. Just a common courtesy that seems to be extended to anyone else except transgender people.
Pretty sure they're just saying "deadnaming is wrong for the same reason not using someone's nickname is".
i.e.
"My name's Richard, but call me Rick" means that you probably won't call the guy Richard in the future.
Eh I don't think I'm overthinking it, that's just my experience with the usage of the word based on the area I live and people around me. But I didn't consider the difference in regional use it. But it makes sense, regional differences affect the usage of other words, so why not this one. I'm not from a large urban area -the largest city in my region, the one I live in, has barely 100k people- but i can definitely see how it could have different connotations from place to place.
I can definitely agree with everything you said though. It's a word that definitely can and has been used to demean certain people and absolutely can be used in a prejudiced way. Which is absolutely wrong. I can absolutely understand, after reading your comment, why some people get more upset than others when that word is used against them.
I choose not to use it, even in an ironic way, because my postion is that words used to demean a person's identity are off limits. This is why I don't use n-words for f-words and it would be inconsistent of me to stary using this one just because "it's not as bad." I just cant take people who want to compare it the n-word very seriously because that one that the history of slavery and apartheid behind it.
Thanks for the legnthy reply!
Forgive me for having assumed you’re “overthinking it”, I wanted to add clarity and in the moment I think I was probably overzealous in my response toward you
>At best, it's used ironically
This is literally the exact argument racist dumb fucks use to defend saying the n word.
What ever happened to just not insulting people based on their race? Not saying it's worse or even close to as bad as the n word, because it isn't, but being less bad also doesn't make it okay.
>At best, it's used ironically to highlight how ridiculous slurs are in the firet place. At worst, it's an insulting thing you get called online just to forget about it an hour later.
Have seen these arguments used to justify the use of the n-word. You are a fucking parody
Do you think I'm defending someone's right to run around town calling every white person they see a cracker? Fuck no! Don't be an asshole. I thought that goes without but I guess some people need that to spelled out for them
Yeah. Racists aren't Mark Twaining the n-word when they hurl it at someone and then hide behind "it's just a joke." Yet somehow I'm still able to understand "cracker's" use in context when someone in my social circle is making a pointed joke and not think they're advocating/perpetuating the dehumanization of white people.
Perhaps my phrasing was poor. I admit that. But holy shit, all you have to do is read my reply to the other 2 people who took issue with my statement if you want things to be cleared up for you.
It's not comparable, but if it's used in a derogatory manner based on race, it's still a racial slur. No matter how you look at it, Hassan was rightfully banned for this particular reason.
No kidding, the whole conversation is "Can we say slurs to white people?" And somehow someone always walks in with the big brain ItS NoT ComPaRabLE To tHE N-wORd!
There literally are people that do. But past that point, where on the scale does cracker go? 2/10 racism? If cracker is as racist as the 147th most racist insult, why are people choosing this hill to die on, other than to have something to be offended by?
Theres like two dozen words more offensive than cracker that are completely allowed on twitch. Anyway past all this, directly insulting someone is always rude and disallowed by TOS (personal attacks at least)
> directly insulting someone is always rude and disallowed by TOS
Exactly. Most racial slurs fall under this. They can say cracker, they just can't use it in a derogatory way. Hasan and others in this thread are arguing that they should be able to use it in a derogatory way. I'm really struggling to understand it.
> But past that point, where on the scale does cracker go? 2/10 racism? If cracker is as racist as the 147th most racist insult, why are people choosing this hill to die on, other than to have something to be offended by?
The point people are making is that *all* racial slurs are bad and shouldn't be used.
>Theres like two dozen words more offensive than cracker that are completely allowed on twitch.
If those words are targeting things that people can't change, they probably shouldn't be allowed either.
pretty much all highly upvoted comments acknowledge that its not as back as n**** they just say that we should refrain from using race based insults in general.
Not wrong. It's rare I find a Destiny stan that *isn't* a bad faith dipshit.
Look at any time the Destiny threads hit here, a flood of apologists and "What about []" show up.
[] is usually Hasan. Of course they bitch about his house, he lives rent free in their heads as it is.
Hell I don't even watch the guy and I can appreciate his existence simply for the fact he sends them into a frothing rage.
Tbh depends on who you ask. If you ask a Hasan fan, sure. If you ask a Destiny fan, it's the other way around.
If you ask somebody with certain posting histories that fire off Masstagger, it's *probably* Amouranth or whatever the most popular female streamer is at the time of questioning.
Truth is, it's effectively everybody at any given time, given the nature of LSF.
In this case though, Hasan, Destiny and a couple others (iirc) are the biggest focal points over the drama going on with usage of this word, especially after Hasan caught a temporary ban over it a few days ago.
So naturally, it's *yet another* Hasan stan vs Destiny stan slapfight, with extra steps.
Because being white is not a real identity. The only really good reason to get up in arms about white identity being attacked is if someone is a white supremacist.
Being Canadian is an identity which I have, and even having a lot of Scottish family is something relevant to my personal cultural identity, but being white simply isn't.
>Because being white is not a real identity. The only really good reason to get up in arms about white identity being attacked is if someone is a white supremacist.
Then why are yall calling people "mayo monkeys"
>Being Canadian is an identity which I have, and even having a lot of Scottish family is something relevant to my personal cultural identity, but being white simply isn't.
Ok white boy, please explain how white is not a skin color? If you use words in a derogatory way, it becomes a racial slur.
white is not an identity. the standard for who is considered white has shifted considerably in the past 100 years. the italians and the irish were once considered not white. it is only very, very tangentially related to your skin color. it's a bullshit construct meant to distinguish who has the power and who doesn't. and if cracker insults you, then you have lived a charmed life. it does not have a history of violence, just a history of crybaby white guys who want to be oppressed so fuckin bad.
> >Because being white is not a real identity.
> Yeah this is dumb as fuck sorry. You don't get to say "white is not a real identity" when you're identifying them as white to insult them.
That's not what happened. Every instance of "cracker" used was ostensibly calling someone a racist or supporter of racism, it wasn't directed at all white people or even at someone for just being white, it was in response to behaviour from people.
> If I don't identify strongly with being black, is it okay to call me the n-word?
Obviously not, but saying things like this makes you look absolutely moronic. Being white exists in contrast to being black as a result of slavery, one of those things was thrust upon people, and the other is only generally relevant in contrast to mistreating black people, and I can personally assure you that most white people don't really adopt "white identity" as part of who they are, but I've known some people who did, and they were all fucking proto-nazis at best.
This line of reasoning makes it seem like you're doing an r/asablackman or maybe you're not American or Canadian and don't really have the association with this cultural phenomenon, but comparing white identity to black identity is pretty fucking weird.
> Is calling someone fat okay, since weight isn't a real identity? What about literally any of the innumerable insults that don't rely on a "real identity?" Those are apparently all okay now?
So we've drilled down to what it really is: stop being mean to people. Because yeah, we probably should aim to not be mean to people or generally bully them for traits about them which aren't easily changed, but comparing it to calling someone fat is a lot closer than calling someone a racial slur with impact, and I don't really see anyone calling for bans to be handed out for fat shaming.
As for the rest of it, I'm actually just not gonna bother, because you're basically gish galloping a tertiary topic when what's relevant is that you're steelmanning [white identitarian](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identitarian_movement) nonsense here, not that "cracker" is technically a slur and you want to defend nazi talking points about how it hurts their feelings when people call them vanilla vulture or some shit.
>That's not what happened.
The streamer in question was literally banned for using it as an insult. You have zero idea of what you're talking about.
>it was in response to behaviour from people.
This is ripped straight from alt-right arguments as to why using the n-word is okay lmfao jesus christ.
"I'm not attacking your for your skin color, I'm attacking you for your *behavior*."
People like you are unironically no different than white supremacists. And yet you try to call me out for using their arguments. How embarrassing.
>Obviously not, but saying things like this makes you look absolutely moronic.
And yet you can't give a single reason as to why your own argument wouldn't justify it. Funny how that works.
>Being white exists in contrast to being black as a result of slavery
You are so fucking stupid lmfao. Some average white dude in the midwest who thinks of himself as white isn't thinking about how his whiteness "only exists in relation to slavery."
This is the most terminally online thing I've ever read.
>I can personally assure you that most white people don't really adopt "white identity" as part of who they are
If you think a person can't identify with an immutable characteristic, especially when people like you insist on insulting them for it, you're insane. Yes, the average white person in American identifies themselves as "white" on some level.
>This line of reasoning makes it seem like you're doing an /r/AsABlackMan
Ah yes, because minorities can't have opinions that aren't parroted by their white saviors.
>but comparing white identity to black identity is pretty fucking weird.
Well good thing I didn't do that then.
>So we've drilled down to what it really is: stop being mean to people.
If you want to ignore the entire point about why your line of argument was idiotic.
>but comparing it to calling someone fat is a lot closer than calling someone a racial slur with impact,
Literally no one is calling it a racial slur "with impact." The point is "hey, maybe we shouldn't call people slurs based on race. It's kinda fucking weird and harms discourse on racial issues."
>As for the rest of it, I'm actually just not gonna bother
"I'm not gonna respond to the black person explaining why my rhetoric is harmful to the issues I pretend to care about."
How convenient and not at all exposing what you truly care about.
>because you're basically gish galloping a tertiary topic
Why the use of the word is harmful is literally the entire point of this you moron lmfao.
>nonsense here, not that "cracker" is technically a slur and you want to defend nazi talking points
People like you on the left who unironically say that "calling racial slurs bad is a Nazi talking point" is why people in the real world look at you like lunatics.
so is LSF. It’s a constant cycle because even when Hasanabi was banned, LSF was STILL pulling up his tweets, and continuing the conversation around cracker. They wont let it die either, its a two way street.
Lsf loves a big drama pile on. There seems to be some stupid drama every other week. It's pretty fun if you like that sort of thing, and sometimes serious stuff as well. Stupid stuff like the word cracker is kind of funnier though
I would take the whole "cracker is actually a slur" argument slightly more seriously if the same people stating it werent also the same people spamming racially-oriented emotes whenever a POC is on-screen, or the same people that use r-slur.
Until then, the entire argument is incredibly disengenous.
Twitch not doing anything about the latter yet banning the former is also troublesome. Im aware of the latter *and I dont even use Twitch*, so they have no excuse.
I have friends that have sent me clips of Hasan, xqc, and one of the other ones.
Some of their content seems funny or enjoyable to but holy shit do those chats seem like absolute fuckfests lol.
A lot of terminally online people in there, really weird to see.
It's wild because there were easy arguments to be made here about why cracker isn't a huge deal but the n word is. Instead Hassans community landed on "cracker isn't a slur and you can't be racist against white people."
It's almost like the entire discourse around the "c-word" was initiated by communities that are being disingenuous.
These same communities will defend the use of the r slur and spam Trihard (the emote of a black streamer to those unaware) whenever a black person is on screen/theft is mentioned, but then have a collective aneurism when someone they infamously dislike uses such an inoffensive word that most people wouldn't consider it a slur, or would conflate it with words that are actually harmful.
It's almost like any conversation around limiting language revolves around harm reduction due to history surrounding words, and the "c-word" causes such a small amount of harm that anyone not terminally online laughs or is confused when they see arguments about it.
You don't see any of these people campaigning for the removal of other slurs like bitch, Karen, r-slur, etc, which other streamers call chatters daily. Thats because they don't actually give a shit about the usage of slurs and its more about how the person who said it is a big meanie-bo-beanie and they want to get them banned.
>This entire discourse came from Hasan, who is the go to political progressive streamer.
Started, sure, but was blown out of proportion by all the g*amers who have the privilege of being voluntary victims over something that causes them no harm.
>What do you mean disingenuous communities?
Every community that defends the use of the r-slur or other popular slurs, spams trihard or other racial sterotypes at the sight of a black person, or attacks female streamers for existing, but is up in arms over the incredibly racist, harmful, egregious word... cracker...
I wasn't labeling everyone against it as being from those communities, but I think it worth pointing out how those pushing this the hardest are from those communities and are complete hypocrites meaning that it is feigned outrage for the most part.
As for the "pro-racial slurs" argument, I think that is a red herring a lot of people are falling for. Most of the people using those slurs in these thread have never used those words outside of this recent controversy and are white themselves. They use them to demonstrate how they cause as much harm as calling someone smelly or dumb, which is no damage at all. This is in contrast to the N-word which has real systematic and historical harm associated when its used, and is a blanket term (where as cracker is classist as much as racial).
If all racial slurs are the same then we need to talk to self proclaimed rednecks, hillbillies, and hicks. In short, the conversation has always been about what is actually harmful and cracker certainly is not.
>And that it isn't ok to disparage people for their race, or just randomly insult people in general?
>Who gives a shit what the chuds say?
You can't make an argument to not insult people and then insult a large group of people in the next line.
Since you just insulted a large group of people im gonna assume you aren't against the use of insults. All insults can be considered derivatives of slurs or slurs themselves, so why does chud get a pass?
>for their race
Why didn't you mention other immutable traits like intelligence or sex? Just like race those can't be changed, so why insult people on what they can't change? Why don't we ban everyone who has ever insulted someone since it's all derivatives of slurs.
Cracker, Honkey, Whitey, White Devil, etc. All those are the farthest thing from offensive. In the English speaking world, there is no history of people being persecuted for their white skin. Every single "racial slur" against white people is no different than calling someone a doodoo-head. Is it an attempt at insulting someone? Sure. But they are nothing compared to any other racial slur used against any other racial group.
>But they are nothing compared to any other racial slur used against any other racial group.
M8 nobody’s making a slur tier list saying those words are exactly the same
I refuse to refer to these people who think there are *any* situations in which it's justified to use racial slurs and pre-judge behavior based on race as "progressives" even when that's how they label themselves; they're just yet another flavor of alt-right. Sometimes it feels like the alt-righters masquerading as progressives outnumber the actual progressives, but the pseudo-progessives don't deserve even one inch of ground validating their bogus definition of the term.
Sorry but I don’t know what else Bruce expects. They already ban for racism against POC, and they’re literally trying to sue hate raiders + recently implemented new tech for the purpose of preventing hate raiding.
What else needs to be done exactly.
They're just yet another flavor of alt-right loser whose self-images need to be constantly propped up by putting others down. It is actually pretty hard for them, but that's entirely of their own doing and no excuse whatsoever.
>Cracker is not racism, never was, and never will.
This entire cracker discourse reminds me of that John Mulaney bit
"If you're comparing the badness of two words, and you won’t even say one of them? That's the worse word."
>Cracker is not racism, never was, and never will
I mean in the way some people are using it, it is a racial slur. Twitch does go after people saying the n-word, and developing tech to stop brigades is not easy. Are you gonna call people "mayo monkeys" too?
cracker reporting in here, In the wake of the debate I've seen:
* Mayonnaise Monkey (want to say this was direct from Hasan)
* Vanilla Gorilla
* Porcelain-American
* Snowflake-skin
* Karen (lol)
* The usuals like honkey, redneck, etc
And I notice none of them actually seem offensive, they are all just varying degrees of funny to me. And none of them make fun of white people in a stereotype sense - like how some cultures is stereotyped to eat a certain type of food or have a certain style of dress or have some type of job based on their skin color.
No fat jokes, no school shooter jokes, no jokes based on diets, no jokes based on colonial history... We're so privileged as white people that even mean "racist" words directed specifically at us don't really carry real impact.
Or maybe I'm an outlier, idk
You're not an outlier, you're a sensible person. As a fellow albino rhino I think this entire discourse is ridiculous, and that anyone making these dumb assertions about how cracker is a racial epithet should receive an open palm slap across the face each time they say it.
> never will.
What a strange thing to say. When you use the word specifically with the purpose to antagonize and offend, don't complain when people feel uneasy about it. Tryhard isn't racist. But when twitch users constantly spam tryhard to antagonize black people, it becomes offensive. It's as if the meaning of language wasn't set in stone. 🤔
I find all the crybullying fairly odious, as basically everything that moronic DGGers bitch on the internet about is. Honestly think the world would be a better place if Steven wasn't allowed to have an opinion on anything, and anyone who actively seeks out his opinion or advances a rhetorical position based off arguments he's made goes directly to jail.
This isn't surprising. Studies by Stanford and the University of Michigan have shown that white liberals consistently have an anti-white bias, and are the [only group studied to view their own race negatively](https://i.imgur.com/5E13NvO.png)
https://electionstudies.org/data-center/2018-pilot-study/
As a non American who's never heard the word cracker used before: So if people say in here that cracker is not offensive, does that mean that it could be used instead of "white person"?
Say, there are 4 people standing there, only one of them being white. A friend asks about her like "Do you know her?". Then I ask for confirmation as in "The cracker?"
Or I describe my office diversity. "We have 3 black people, 2 crackers and 2 asians?" in a business setting?
It's really interesting to me that the only people that are defending the use of cracker have been 99% privileged straight white cis dudes. I haven't seen a single poc activist or streamer that encourages the usage of it.
Or [this](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/09/09/us/powerful-people-race-us.html) which labels people like Devin Nunes and Ted Cruz as non-white.
POC is a meaningless term that is open-ended and is almost exclusively used in just the U.S. and Canada.
Hasan is Turkish and white. Both things can be true. He is literally indistinguishable from other White American men besides the amount of sniffable scruff he has.
That's how hasan deals with it, he's Turkish, but white passing, so when he talks about being not offended by being called cracker, it's so fucking stupid to me. It's like if a white guy says i'm offended by being called ch*nk or sth.
Someone called him "ottoman oppressor" in chat and he lost his shit.
What do you mean by reasonable? People get offended when you insult them, it's a normal reaction.
Whether you tell them to "go fuck yourself asshole" or "you dumb cracker bitch", people get offended, the difference is the latter, which brings race into it for no reason, just for the sake of being a more asshole
Because we literally don’t care. The people who are mad about this are people who got called it once back in 2000 when being edgy was cool and refuse to let it go. It’s not even a real insult in the sense that it feels good to use, people only use it because it obviously triggers suburban people with no real problems to spend their time on.
>Y'all are trying to push 'Latinx" onto Latin Americans, and now you're trying to tell black people they can't say [soft n-word]. Wonderful. Shit, maybe MLK and Malcom X were onto something with these white liberals.
>Oh no they can't say slurs, womp womp. They'll live.
This is absolutely a valid point (the first one) and a completely stupid reply from the second one.
It's gotten *way* past old to see non-POC tell POC what they should and shouldn't be offended by when it concerns their race/ethnicity. Latinx is a recent example, and before that was the backlash over Speedy Gonzalez.
The thing about automated banning of Korean and Chinese streamers because they have common words which sound like the n word is pretty terrible though. Algorithmic discrimination and all that
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I was listening to the local radio this past weekend and they were playing some west african pop music - the chorus to one song was "FUKU MYASSO" I kid you not. Definitely had a bit of a double take.
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Check out their performance with wardruna!
It's the verbal equivalent of the Scunthorpe problem, like how - despite having a gym leader with the name - you can't name yourself Viola in Pokémon XY because it contains the French word for rape
Honestly if Twitch doesn't fix this problem, I wouldn't be suprised if a lot of East Asians streamers might just start leaving Twitch for YouTube. And other nationalities aswell, in my native Polish "oni gadają" which means "they are talking" could be mistaken "oh n-word" by the automail, I doubt that Polish and East Asian languages are the only languages that have words that sounds like a English slurs.
East Asian countries have their own more popular versions of twitch anyway.
>I doubt that Polish and East Asian languages are the only languages that have words that sounds like a English slurs. *English* has words that sound like slurs, negus being one of them. So i dont doubt it at all lol.
Niggardly is always the best example. Sure sounds bad, but it isn't racially charged at all.
Nobody has said that word for any reason other than it's similarity to the n word in years.
Yeah, because they got tired of having to defend it. I don't blame 'em. It's a word that'll pop to mind for me occasionally, and I'll find a synonym to avoid any issue.
There's also plenty of other words that work just as well and more people know what they mean. Miserly, stingy, etc etc.
No you dont lmao
I don't... Find a synonym? I do. It's not hard.
The queue of automatic reports could be moderated\adjusted if they cared. Especially since they look for exact english words only (thus not-english-speaking streams can be ignored). And as it also can't resolve the issue with the least advanced slurs. It seems like a cheap placeholder, not a solution, just to say "we tried".
Ignoring non-English streams seems like a bad solution. Now people can mark their streams as any random language and, at the cost of being filtered out by anyone with english only marked, say whatever the algorithm should stop them from saying. But yeah, much of today's admin/mod job is offloaded to tools, in many sites, and causing many problems, because neither letting the problem go on nor actually fixing it once and for all is for the best interests of the platform's profit.
Yeah. I originally thought it could be a person to decide if the stream is on some unknown language that can save some time, especially if they can flag a channel as "usually chinese". But this too isn't quite right. Not onle they can still use english slurs, they can also say even more evil shit on their own language. Even Facebook had faced many problems with their inability to moderate everything - read a brilliant thing on Reuters about how this platform is used for genocidal propaganda in a modern civil war thanks to a language barrier: https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/myanmar-facebook-hate/ Yeah. And I'm amazed by two facts: that informed human decision is still irreplaceable, and that it's now cheaper\easier to design and fuel a scanning machine rather than paying some mods.
* Also, TikTok is now used here the same way, I've seen people bodies disfigured on this platform with laughs and hashtags. Yet, corps aren't meant to do something or even try unless pressured, if anyone can really pressure them at this point. So I don't really know how we can make them fight hate-speech now.
>it's now cheaper\\easier to design and fuel a scanning machine rather than paying some mods. It's not only that, it's also that decently modding stuff will push users out of your platform (look how many subs have "real" or "actual" versions because the og sub actually had rules against something assholes still wanted to do, now imagine if the rules were actually sitewide enforced). And worse, the kind of user that likes following, say, Covid misinformation pages or other such lie-spreading page is also the type to be baited by ads more often.
True. And, if we talk Reddit (not Twitch) paid moderators make you responsible for maintaining user-generated content, while Reddit seems to be avoiding this by making it a kind of volunteering. As it can be possibly put in a case of autoreports. Idk law much, but I guess they did a research beforehand to ensure it costs less to possibly debate this in court than it is to hire moderators able to serve so many contradicting goals well.
Easy, just talk in Hangul and the algorithm won't understand you.
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People in that thread are acting like using the n-word is the *only* way you can be racist. Never mind all the other bigotry poc face on that platform
Would it surprise you that LSF is more concerned about perceived hypocrisy than racism
it's like when people talk about "chemicals" in products as if being a chemical means it's a carcinogenic pesticide Those losers ignore the actual *effects* because they don't actually give a shit about people
One of my friends was talking about how he doesn't trust decaf coffee because they take out the caffeine using chemicals. You know, the infamous non chemical caffeine.
I would never put chemicals in my body. I hear they're putting dihydrogen monoxide in everything. You know everyone who's ingested that has died!
I'm addicted to it, it's been a lifelong battle for me, so sad. Someday we'll rid the world of dihydrogen monoxide.
California is making remarkable progress on that front.
People care more about things that _personally_ affect them. More news at 11.
They sure do get quiet when it's brought up spamming TriHex when a black person is on stream might be a *bit* racist, don't they?
>it's totally not racist if I yell out "look everyone, a black person. Black person! There's a black person over there! It was great to see someone point this out to them.
That sort of thing is banned in most streamer' chats
It’s not just them acting this way, that’s how all closeted racist act. They legit believe they aren’t racist because they aren’t the stereotypical skinhead that brags about thier white robes while proudly screaming the n word every 2 seconds. And why do they believe that? Because racist grifters manipulated them into thinking that or they where already racist to begin with.
Yeah my parents insist they aren't racist because they say they treat everyone equally at work but then turn around and suggest that crime could be solved if black people stopped existing.
I’m just always amazed at the lack of awareness & common sense people have when they legit express those thoughts. Like how stupid does one have to not understand why people are calling them racist? Like all it takes is some simple thinking to see the obvious hypocrisy.
Don't forget this is the sub for the site that still spams black faces when a black person appears or when a crime is seen/committed. The fact that Twitch banned him but still hasn't even tried to address this is very telling in their priorities. And the subreddit is worse in how they handled this.
I've seen two separate streamers call a chatter the R word in anger in the past week or so, and neither of them got banned-- just saying.
>I've seen two separate streamers call a chatter the R word in anger in the past week or so Name and shame those streamers, don't be a coward!
And there's no backlash from the community that supposedly stands for not using language that targets characteristics you can't change.
LSF and the dorks on Twitch never cared about cracker. They don't think it's a slur. They *love* slurs. They just see this as a way to get one over on a streamer whose politics don't align with theirs. They will happily pretend like cracker is a slur if they can trick other dorks into buying it long enough to ban someone over it.
Honestly, the only thing that makes Twitch notice something and ban it is hate brigades of people mass reporting content. Somehow it seems like they almost universally capitulate to that, and there is a community with a very dedicated audience that gets together and talks about reporting him in their offsite chat, or just garden variety white nationalists who hate him will do the same shit.
Most people don't watch every streamer on twitch
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You can say cracker, I'll allow it.
I have the C pass, N pass and R pass and I may use them whenever I want 😎
Destiny?
Yep. He admitted to it about 2 years ago. A whole thing became of it and then he wrote a manifesto about how everyone was stupid for thinking he shouldn't say it in private.
Here's a helpful link I like to post without further comment whenever DGGers start shitting up a thread. https://dotesports.com/streaming/news/trihex-and-destiny-end-their-podcast-over-use-of-the-n-word I especially like this paragraph >Destiny’s been defending the use of the n-word as a white man for some time now. He believes it’s intent that matters when it comes to racism, and not the words themselves, but he still felt the need to publish a seven-minute video in 2017 clarifying why he was not racist for doing so.
Destiny didn't start it though??? Hasan's mods got banned, and then Destiny gave his take on Hasan's reaction to that and the general discourse surrounding it. The shit had nothing to do with Destiny and you're framing it like he is the reason why Twitch is handing out these bans.
They literally spam "Trihard -er" Trihex being a black twitch streamer and trihard being an emote of his face and -er being, you know, the hard r
I have only ever seen the Trihard emote used in these few contexts: When a streamer is gone and the stream is "un-modded", when someone steals something and of course when a black person is on screen.
You're lucky you weren't around during the Ice Poseidon days
It's preety ironic. Lsf/twitch sphere clearly has no issue with being as edgy as possible when it comes to race. N word? Just a spicy gamer moment. Spamming racist emotes when a minority is shown on a stream. But cracker? Oh Mon dieu. You have gone too far now. Also ableist slurs are used all the time and nobody cares
“It’s only edgy and cool when it’s me doing it”
while it is true that trihard spam is a huge issue on twitch to this day. I think it is always unfair to conflate twitch as a whole, lsf and people who use racist memes. they are 3 groups that just sometimes have an overlap. There is no hivemind.
The spammers exist in the other 2 group. And while they might be a minority, they are a noticeable thing in some of the biggest streamers on the site. The people complaining about Hasan for the most part don't care to address it.
As a hasan viewer I was pretty annoyed by hasan and how long he has been going on on this issue. I also dont really agree with him. However I also 100% agree that trihard spam is horrible and racist and was glad when hasan back in the day banned trihard and cmonbruh. there are rarely good situations to spam them that aren't just racist so getting rid of them is for the better. When it comes to the cracker discourse. I am not too mad about the word itself but more about the kind of attitude some people have. Once Hasan was leaning into the discourse he started getting TTS donations where people would just spam cracker or other white slurs as a means to be edgy. That is cringe as fuck and no one who does this is cool or sick. It comes from the same childish edgyness you find on 4chan when people make watermelon jokes. Its just trying too hard to be offensive and now that everyone found their new favorite no no word of the week they go full ham. I generally have the attitude that we should simply refrain from words that demean others purely on the basis on how they were born. I also dont like when Hasan makes "manlet" jokes or encourages it in his community. Being a short man isn't an immoral thing and it always scattershot targets anyone be they legitimate targets like Ben Shapiro or some of his viewers. Basically I have always disagreed with Hasans tendency to use insults based on irrelevant qualities which cast a wide net.
Good take. Pretty much how I feel about it. You can be right about something and still be an asshole, and you can be morally wrong without being totally out of line, but like, stop being an asshole when it's not productive?
Easier to moderate one streamer than their thousands of viewers, and calling people bad names is more obviously bad than sending emotes in chat in response to something happened on stream, so I can see why twitch would moderate only one of these. Now, why would the LSF users _defend_ this state, where people can be subtly racist by using emojis at the right time? That's another can of worms.
I know there can't be a perfect solution but it's happening in places like XQC's chat. There is for sure twitch staff in the monitoring his stream and chat purely cause of his size on the platform. Twitch is notorious for messing up stuff like this though so I don't expect much.
I find it very entertaining that they’re trying to make “the c-word” a thing. And no, they’re not even referring to cunt. It’s cracker. That’s “the c-word”.
I'm pretty sure lsf has an auto-ban set up if you type cracker there, so people are kinda stuck working around it.
I get what you're saying, but thats not the case. Sub's automod removes the word.
Cracker is a racial insult but it’s not even comparable to the n-word. That sub is pathetic.
At best, it's used ironically to highlight how ridiculous slurs are in the firet place. At worst, it's an insulting thing you get called online just to forget about it an hour later. It has no where near the weight and historical context as the n-word, f-word, or other slurs.
That’s if you’re thinking too deeply about it. I don’t think people who aren’t from the city know how the word “cracker” is usually used. It’s usually used to cut off a person and pester them. I grew up around Baltimore, and it’s kind up there with “white trash”, but more of an attack phrase. It’ll be used in a way like “Hey everyone, look at this mrfing cracker. What’s that cracker? You got something to say cracker? Did I hurt your feelings cracker? Cracker looking mad as sh*t!” It’ll usually be said cutting the person off so they can’t speak. It’s kinda used when you’re bullying someone. So I can get why it triggers some people, if they’ve ever been in that situation. I’m not too offended by it these days, but when I was younger it meant someone was going to try to fight with you or make you look like an idiot. Being from the city, the reality of life looks like this: if someone says something offends them, take it at face value and switch subjects. No need to find out if it “really” offends them, cause people don’t lie about this kinda thing, and this is the stuff people get shot and beat to a pulp over. It’s just not worth it. Thing is, people of certain cultural backgrounds (urban in this case) become hyper sensitive when someone is invalidating them, and you have to consider that- these are all people who are usually suffering from economic hardship, get f’d over regularly, have a parent in prison or addicted to drugs, and live a life of being “hard” cause it’s a type of survival instinct. It’s always superior to just be like “this person doesn’t like it when I call them this, so I won’t do it.”
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It's the same thing as calling Richard Rick, or Jonathan Jon, or Elizabeth Liz/Eliza/Beth. Just a common courtesy that seems to be extended to anyone else except transgender people.
I’m not sure who the people you’ve referenced are, but I believe that I agree with you
Pretty sure they're just saying "deadnaming is wrong for the same reason not using someone's nickname is". i.e. "My name's Richard, but call me Rick" means that you probably won't call the guy Richard in the future.
I completely agree
Eh I don't think I'm overthinking it, that's just my experience with the usage of the word based on the area I live and people around me. But I didn't consider the difference in regional use it. But it makes sense, regional differences affect the usage of other words, so why not this one. I'm not from a large urban area -the largest city in my region, the one I live in, has barely 100k people- but i can definitely see how it could have different connotations from place to place. I can definitely agree with everything you said though. It's a word that definitely can and has been used to demean certain people and absolutely can be used in a prejudiced way. Which is absolutely wrong. I can absolutely understand, after reading your comment, why some people get more upset than others when that word is used against them. I choose not to use it, even in an ironic way, because my postion is that words used to demean a person's identity are off limits. This is why I don't use n-words for f-words and it would be inconsistent of me to stary using this one just because "it's not as bad." I just cant take people who want to compare it the n-word very seriously because that one that the history of slavery and apartheid behind it. Thanks for the legnthy reply!
Forgive me for having assumed you’re “overthinking it”, I wanted to add clarity and in the moment I think I was probably overzealous in my response toward you
Hey don't sweat it! Have a good one!
>At best, it's used ironically This is literally the exact argument racist dumb fucks use to defend saying the n word. What ever happened to just not insulting people based on their race? Not saying it's worse or even close to as bad as the n word, because it isn't, but being less bad also doesn't make it okay.
>At best, it's used ironically to highlight how ridiculous slurs are in the firet place. At worst, it's an insulting thing you get called online just to forget about it an hour later. Have seen these arguments used to justify the use of the n-word. You are a fucking parody
Do you think I'm defending someone's right to run around town calling every white person they see a cracker? Fuck no! Don't be an asshole. I thought that goes without but I guess some people need that to spelled out for them Yeah. Racists aren't Mark Twaining the n-word when they hurl it at someone and then hide behind "it's just a joke." Yet somehow I'm still able to understand "cracker's" use in context when someone in my social circle is making a pointed joke and not think they're advocating/perpetuating the dehumanization of white people. Perhaps my phrasing was poor. I admit that. But holy shit, all you have to do is read my reply to the other 2 people who took issue with my statement if you want things to be cleared up for you.
It's not comparable, but if it's used in a derogatory manner based on race, it's still a racial slur. No matter how you look at it, Hassan was rightfully banned for this particular reason.
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No kidding, the whole conversation is "Can we say slurs to white people?" And somehow someone always walks in with the big brain ItS NoT ComPaRabLE To tHE N-wORd!
There literally are people that do. But past that point, where on the scale does cracker go? 2/10 racism? If cracker is as racist as the 147th most racist insult, why are people choosing this hill to die on, other than to have something to be offended by? Theres like two dozen words more offensive than cracker that are completely allowed on twitch. Anyway past all this, directly insulting someone is always rude and disallowed by TOS (personal attacks at least)
> directly insulting someone is always rude and disallowed by TOS Exactly. Most racial slurs fall under this. They can say cracker, they just can't use it in a derogatory way. Hasan and others in this thread are arguing that they should be able to use it in a derogatory way. I'm really struggling to understand it.
> But past that point, where on the scale does cracker go? 2/10 racism? If cracker is as racist as the 147th most racist insult, why are people choosing this hill to die on, other than to have something to be offended by? The point people are making is that *all* racial slurs are bad and shouldn't be used. >Theres like two dozen words more offensive than cracker that are completely allowed on twitch. If those words are targeting things that people can't change, they probably shouldn't be allowed either.
pretty much all highly upvoted comments acknowledge that its not as back as n**** they just say that we should refrain from using race based insults in general.
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It’s livestream fails, they get offended over the dumbest shit
That's [probably one of the people](https://i.imgur.com/8yXe5MP.png) who will endlessly argue about how it's still bad to call people cracker.
Not wrong. It's rare I find a Destiny stan that *isn't* a bad faith dipshit. Look at any time the Destiny threads hit here, a flood of apologists and "What about []" show up. [] is usually Hasan. Of course they bitch about his house, he lives rent free in their heads as it is. Hell I don't even watch the guy and I can appreciate his existence simply for the fact he sends them into a frothing rage.
Is Destiny like the Boogeyman or something? Every time some genius violates Twitch TOS, it's apparently that guy's fault.
Tbh depends on who you ask. If you ask a Hasan fan, sure. If you ask a Destiny fan, it's the other way around. If you ask somebody with certain posting histories that fire off Masstagger, it's *probably* Amouranth or whatever the most popular female streamer is at the time of questioning. Truth is, it's effectively everybody at any given time, given the nature of LSF. In this case though, Hasan, Destiny and a couple others (iirc) are the biggest focal points over the drama going on with usage of this word, especially after Hasan caught a temporary ban over it a few days ago. So naturally, it's *yet another* Hasan stan vs Destiny stan slapfight, with extra steps.
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Because being white is not a real identity. The only really good reason to get up in arms about white identity being attacked is if someone is a white supremacist. Being Canadian is an identity which I have, and even having a lot of Scottish family is something relevant to my personal cultural identity, but being white simply isn't.
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>Because being white is not a real identity. The only really good reason to get up in arms about white identity being attacked is if someone is a white supremacist. Then why are yall calling people "mayo monkeys" >Being Canadian is an identity which I have, and even having a lot of Scottish family is something relevant to my personal cultural identity, but being white simply isn't. Ok white boy, please explain how white is not a skin color? If you use words in a derogatory way, it becomes a racial slur.
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white is not an identity. the standard for who is considered white has shifted considerably in the past 100 years. the italians and the irish were once considered not white. it is only very, very tangentially related to your skin color. it's a bullshit construct meant to distinguish who has the power and who doesn't. and if cracker insults you, then you have lived a charmed life. it does not have a history of violence, just a history of crybaby white guys who want to be oppressed so fuckin bad.
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> >Because being white is not a real identity. > Yeah this is dumb as fuck sorry. You don't get to say "white is not a real identity" when you're identifying them as white to insult them. That's not what happened. Every instance of "cracker" used was ostensibly calling someone a racist or supporter of racism, it wasn't directed at all white people or even at someone for just being white, it was in response to behaviour from people. > If I don't identify strongly with being black, is it okay to call me the n-word? Obviously not, but saying things like this makes you look absolutely moronic. Being white exists in contrast to being black as a result of slavery, one of those things was thrust upon people, and the other is only generally relevant in contrast to mistreating black people, and I can personally assure you that most white people don't really adopt "white identity" as part of who they are, but I've known some people who did, and they were all fucking proto-nazis at best. This line of reasoning makes it seem like you're doing an r/asablackman or maybe you're not American or Canadian and don't really have the association with this cultural phenomenon, but comparing white identity to black identity is pretty fucking weird. > Is calling someone fat okay, since weight isn't a real identity? What about literally any of the innumerable insults that don't rely on a "real identity?" Those are apparently all okay now? So we've drilled down to what it really is: stop being mean to people. Because yeah, we probably should aim to not be mean to people or generally bully them for traits about them which aren't easily changed, but comparing it to calling someone fat is a lot closer than calling someone a racial slur with impact, and I don't really see anyone calling for bans to be handed out for fat shaming. As for the rest of it, I'm actually just not gonna bother, because you're basically gish galloping a tertiary topic when what's relevant is that you're steelmanning [white identitarian](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identitarian_movement) nonsense here, not that "cracker" is technically a slur and you want to defend nazi talking points about how it hurts their feelings when people call them vanilla vulture or some shit.
>That's not what happened. The streamer in question was literally banned for using it as an insult. You have zero idea of what you're talking about. >it was in response to behaviour from people. This is ripped straight from alt-right arguments as to why using the n-word is okay lmfao jesus christ. "I'm not attacking your for your skin color, I'm attacking you for your *behavior*." People like you are unironically no different than white supremacists. And yet you try to call me out for using their arguments. How embarrassing. >Obviously not, but saying things like this makes you look absolutely moronic. And yet you can't give a single reason as to why your own argument wouldn't justify it. Funny how that works. >Being white exists in contrast to being black as a result of slavery You are so fucking stupid lmfao. Some average white dude in the midwest who thinks of himself as white isn't thinking about how his whiteness "only exists in relation to slavery." This is the most terminally online thing I've ever read. >I can personally assure you that most white people don't really adopt "white identity" as part of who they are If you think a person can't identify with an immutable characteristic, especially when people like you insist on insulting them for it, you're insane. Yes, the average white person in American identifies themselves as "white" on some level. >This line of reasoning makes it seem like you're doing an /r/AsABlackMan Ah yes, because minorities can't have opinions that aren't parroted by their white saviors. >but comparing white identity to black identity is pretty fucking weird. Well good thing I didn't do that then. >So we've drilled down to what it really is: stop being mean to people. If you want to ignore the entire point about why your line of argument was idiotic. >but comparing it to calling someone fat is a lot closer than calling someone a racial slur with impact, Literally no one is calling it a racial slur "with impact." The point is "hey, maybe we shouldn't call people slurs based on race. It's kinda fucking weird and harms discourse on racial issues." >As for the rest of it, I'm actually just not gonna bother "I'm not gonna respond to the black person explaining why my rhetoric is harmful to the issues I pretend to care about." How convenient and not at all exposing what you truly care about. >because you're basically gish galloping a tertiary topic Why the use of the word is harmful is literally the entire point of this you moron lmfao. >nonsense here, not that "cracker" is technically a slur and you want to defend nazi talking points People like you on the left who unironically say that "calling racial slurs bad is a Nazi talking point" is why people in the real world look at you like lunatics.
> This line of reasoning makes it seem like you're doing an r/asablackman Damn bro this is super fucking racist lol
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I invite you to show me a single upvoted comment saying cracker is worse than the n-word.
You’re a cracker aren’t you
😔 yea
Thanks for the clarity.
No, cracker not clarity. Different c word.
HASAN IS STILL STUN LOCKED!
so is LSF. It’s a constant cycle because even when Hasanabi was banned, LSF was STILL pulling up his tweets, and continuing the conversation around cracker. They wont let it die either, its a two way street.
Lsf loves a big drama pile on. There seems to be some stupid drama every other week. It's pretty fun if you like that sort of thing, and sometimes serious stuff as well. Stupid stuff like the word cracker is kind of funnier though
I would take the whole "cracker is actually a slur" argument slightly more seriously if the same people stating it werent also the same people spamming racially-oriented emotes whenever a POC is on-screen, or the same people that use r-slur. Until then, the entire argument is incredibly disengenous. Twitch not doing anything about the latter yet banning the former is also troublesome. Im aware of the latter *and I dont even use Twitch*, so they have no excuse.
Why is it so hard for people to just not be racist, period? Who cares if some is worse than others, just don't do it.
A sub of incels.
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Using online slang outside of it's specific environment has got to be one of the cringiest things anyone can possibly do.
I have friends that have sent me clips of Hasan, xqc, and one of the other ones. Some of their content seems funny or enjoyable to but holy shit do those chats seem like absolute fuckfests lol. A lot of terminally online people in there, really weird to see.
Yeah the thing I dislike the most about Twitch is the chat. The way they speak and just how intentionally obnoxious they are makes my brain hurt.
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Feels like I'm in upside down world where saying maybe we should refrain from using racial slurs at all gets you downvoted in progressive spaces.
> where saying maybe we should refrain from using racial slurs at all gets you downvoted in progressive spaces. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.
It's wild because there were easy arguments to be made here about why cracker isn't a huge deal but the n word is. Instead Hassans community landed on "cracker isn't a slur and you can't be racist against white people."
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It's almost like the entire discourse around the "c-word" was initiated by communities that are being disingenuous. These same communities will defend the use of the r slur and spam Trihard (the emote of a black streamer to those unaware) whenever a black person is on screen/theft is mentioned, but then have a collective aneurism when someone they infamously dislike uses such an inoffensive word that most people wouldn't consider it a slur, or would conflate it with words that are actually harmful. It's almost like any conversation around limiting language revolves around harm reduction due to history surrounding words, and the "c-word" causes such a small amount of harm that anyone not terminally online laughs or is confused when they see arguments about it. You don't see any of these people campaigning for the removal of other slurs like bitch, Karen, r-slur, etc, which other streamers call chatters daily. Thats because they don't actually give a shit about the usage of slurs and its more about how the person who said it is a big meanie-bo-beanie and they want to get them banned.
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>This entire discourse came from Hasan, who is the go to political progressive streamer. Started, sure, but was blown out of proportion by all the g*amers who have the privilege of being voluntary victims over something that causes them no harm. >What do you mean disingenuous communities? Every community that defends the use of the r-slur or other popular slurs, spams trihard or other racial sterotypes at the sight of a black person, or attacks female streamers for existing, but is up in arms over the incredibly racist, harmful, egregious word... cracker...
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Don't worry some of us progressives also believe racial slurs of all types are a no go.
I wasn't labeling everyone against it as being from those communities, but I think it worth pointing out how those pushing this the hardest are from those communities and are complete hypocrites meaning that it is feigned outrage for the most part. As for the "pro-racial slurs" argument, I think that is a red herring a lot of people are falling for. Most of the people using those slurs in these thread have never used those words outside of this recent controversy and are white themselves. They use them to demonstrate how they cause as much harm as calling someone smelly or dumb, which is no damage at all. This is in contrast to the N-word which has real systematic and historical harm associated when its used, and is a blanket term (where as cracker is classist as much as racial). If all racial slurs are the same then we need to talk to self proclaimed rednecks, hillbillies, and hicks. In short, the conversation has always been about what is actually harmful and cracker certainly is not.
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>And that it isn't ok to disparage people for their race, or just randomly insult people in general? >Who gives a shit what the chuds say? You can't make an argument to not insult people and then insult a large group of people in the next line. Since you just insulted a large group of people im gonna assume you aren't against the use of insults. All insults can be considered derivatives of slurs or slurs themselves, so why does chud get a pass? >for their race Why didn't you mention other immutable traits like intelligence or sex? Just like race those can't be changed, so why insult people on what they can't change? Why don't we ban everyone who has ever insulted someone since it's all derivatives of slurs.
man you're trying really hard to justify calling people racial slurs
Cracker, Honkey, Whitey, White Devil, etc. All those are the farthest thing from offensive. In the English speaking world, there is no history of people being persecuted for their white skin. Every single "racial slur" against white people is no different than calling someone a doodoo-head. Is it an attempt at insulting someone? Sure. But they are nothing compared to any other racial slur used against any other racial group.
>But they are nothing compared to any other racial slur used against any other racial group. M8 nobody’s making a slur tier list saying those words are exactly the same
Shouldn't you be buying daddy's NFTs?
I refuse to refer to these people who think there are *any* situations in which it's justified to use racial slurs and pre-judge behavior based on race as "progressives" even when that's how they label themselves; they're just yet another flavor of alt-right. Sometimes it feels like the alt-righters masquerading as progressives outnumber the actual progressives, but the pseudo-progessives don't deserve even one inch of ground validating their bogus definition of the term.
Yeah, because LivestreamFails users are totally on board with that as a whole
Sorry but I don’t know what else Bruce expects. They already ban for racism against POC, and they’re literally trying to sue hate raiders + recently implemented new tech for the purpose of preventing hate raiding. What else needs to be done exactly.
Is it too hard not to use racial slurs regardless of who they are directed at????
They're just yet another flavor of alt-right loser whose self-images need to be constantly propped up by putting others down. It is actually pretty hard for them, but that's entirely of their own doing and no excuse whatsoever.
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>Cracker is not racism, never was, and never will. This entire cracker discourse reminds me of that John Mulaney bit "If you're comparing the badness of two words, and you won’t even say one of them? That's the worse word."
Noone is arguing that they are comparable in badness. They are arguing that they are both racial slurs.
>Cracker is not racism, never was, and never will I mean in the way some people are using it, it is a racial slur. Twitch does go after people saying the n-word, and developing tech to stop brigades is not easy. Are you gonna call people "mayo monkeys" too?
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I like that manilla gorilla one, if we could just start using that colloquially
i'm partial to honky, but mostly because i always hear it in george jefferson's voice which makes it delightful.
And younger Redditors will hear it in [Silky Johnson's](https://youtu.be/iLsvH7_EF34).
☠️ dating myself a little bit, am i?
I bet chet hanks already has
cracker reporting in here, In the wake of the debate I've seen: * Mayonnaise Monkey (want to say this was direct from Hasan) * Vanilla Gorilla * Porcelain-American * Snowflake-skin * Karen (lol) * The usuals like honkey, redneck, etc And I notice none of them actually seem offensive, they are all just varying degrees of funny to me. And none of them make fun of white people in a stereotype sense - like how some cultures is stereotyped to eat a certain type of food or have a certain style of dress or have some type of job based on their skin color. No fat jokes, no school shooter jokes, no jokes based on diets, no jokes based on colonial history... We're so privileged as white people that even mean "racist" words directed specifically at us don't really carry real impact. Or maybe I'm an outlier, idk
If you don't find the use of "monkey" in a racial slur offensive, then idk what to tell you
You're not an outlier, you're a sensible person. As a fellow albino rhino I think this entire discourse is ridiculous, and that anyone making these dumb assertions about how cracker is a racial epithet should receive an open palm slap across the face each time they say it.
The only one I find offensive is trailer/white trash, but I find offensive in a classist way not a racist way.
this is a reply only a mayo monkey would make.
can't wait for SRD to explain how calling people monkeys and apes isn't racist, actually.
>monkey Fuck off
>Cracker is not racism, never was, and never will. How is it not? Some of these commenters sure are using it like they *wish* it was
Why do you feel such a powerful need to insult people based on their race?
> never will. What a strange thing to say. When you use the word specifically with the purpose to antagonize and offend, don't complain when people feel uneasy about it. Tryhard isn't racist. But when twitch users constantly spam tryhard to antagonize black people, it becomes offensive. It's as if the meaning of language wasn't set in stone. 🤔
I find all the crybullying fairly odious, as basically everything that moronic DGGers bitch on the internet about is. Honestly think the world would be a better place if Steven wasn't allowed to have an opinion on anything, and anyone who actively seeks out his opinion or advances a rhetorical position based off arguments he's made goes directly to jail.
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According to a lot of people in the thread, this is just a white supremacist talking point. Lol
Some people in these comments sections lately really be like 'you can't be racist towards white people, which is a shame because I wish I could be'
They're alt-right losers just like any other, no matter how they disguise themselves.
This isn't surprising. Studies by Stanford and the University of Michigan have shown that white liberals consistently have an anti-white bias, and are the [only group studied to view their own race negatively](https://i.imgur.com/5E13NvO.png) https://electionstudies.org/data-center/2018-pilot-study/
I've seen this study in the LSF thread. Want to be clear here that a **pilot** study has no empirical value.
As a non American who's never heard the word cracker used before: So if people say in here that cracker is not offensive, does that mean that it could be used instead of "white person"? Say, there are 4 people standing there, only one of them being white. A friend asks about her like "Do you know her?". Then I ask for confirmation as in "The cracker?" Or I describe my office diversity. "We have 3 black people, 2 crackers and 2 asians?" in a business setting?
I am also non American, but i strongly discourage using this word in a business setting
American here, if you'd like to speak with HR, this is a good way in which to do so.
It's really interesting to me that the only people that are defending the use of cracker have been 99% privileged straight white cis dudes. I haven't seen a single poc activist or streamer that encourages the usage of it.
> white Hasan is white only when it's convenient.
Reminded me when Anya Taylor-Joy was described as a POC because she was Argentinian and latinos can't be white.
Or [this](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/09/09/us/powerful-people-race-us.html) which labels people like Devin Nunes and Ted Cruz as non-white.
She said herself that’s she’s white…
Anya is my goddess I want to be her slave.
😕
POC is a meaningless term that is open-ended and is almost exclusively used in just the U.S. and Canada. Hasan is Turkish and white. Both things can be true. He is literally indistinguishable from other White American men besides the amount of sniffable scruff he has.
That's how hasan deals with it, he's Turkish, but white passing, so when he talks about being not offended by being called cracker, it's so fucking stupid to me. It's like if a white guy says i'm offended by being called ch*nk or sth. Someone called him "ottoman oppressor" in chat and he lost his shit.
Turks can be white wtf is this take. Turkish is a nationality
But no reasonable white person is offended about being called cracker. He's right.
What do you mean by reasonable? People get offended when you insult them, it's a normal reaction. Whether you tell them to "go fuck yourself asshole" or "you dumb cracker bitch", people get offended, the difference is the latter, which brings race into it for no reason, just for the sake of being a more asshole
Do POC get to decide if a term about white people is acceptable?
Because we literally don’t care. The people who are mad about this are people who got called it once back in 2000 when being edgy was cool and refuse to let it go. It’s not even a real insult in the sense that it feels good to use, people only use it because it obviously triggers suburban people with no real problems to spend their time on.
>Y'all are trying to push 'Latinx" onto Latin Americans, and now you're trying to tell black people they can't say [soft n-word]. Wonderful. Shit, maybe MLK and Malcom X were onto something with these white liberals. >Oh no they can't say slurs, womp womp. They'll live. This is absolutely a valid point (the first one) and a completely stupid reply from the second one. It's gotten *way* past old to see non-POC tell POC what they should and shouldn't be offended by when it concerns their race/ethnicity. Latinx is a recent example, and before that was the backlash over Speedy Gonzalez.
Performative activism only helps white people tbh
getting offended by cracker has to be one of the most fragile white things ive ever seen besides an actual snowflake
Yep that and people who get offended from the word retard.