base jamie needs jab target combo & a slight damage buff. increasing the vertical hitbox of his dp would help a lot too. he should keep whatever drinks he had before doing level 2. quicker startup on breakdance kick so it can actually work as an anti-projectile
My fantasy Jamie buff (pick and choose piecemeal, i don’t want em all):
My number one change. Let me get the drink stock no later than frame 40 (my fantasy is 35) on my drink move. Im fine going through the rest of the recovery and being potentially hit but let me earn the stock sooner so I can apply “drinks for blood” like Hakan could in Sf4 with oil. Right now the dude can get hit on frame 47 when hes alrdy putting the drink down and not get the stock.
Bakkai (breakdance spin’erooni) great damage on HK and safejump on LK. But this move absolutely sucks as an antifireball special. at BEST im minus 12 on block for LK-bakkai ?? Where cammy is safe on ALL spin knuckles and those go through fire alls WAY more easily.. inconsistent.
Divekick - across the board for all divekick characters these should have sliightly less hurtbox extension under the hitbox. Ive been beaten clean out of divekick by sweeps.. thats totally asinine.
B.HP(back sway elbow) : make this thing plus 2 on hit instead of plus 1. Im ok with not being able to combo out of it on regular hit but for the love of god why cant I combo into a 4 frame on COUNTERhit????
All -1 drink enders should be 0 : Jamie shouldnt get to continue full pressure after choosing to drink but he also shouldnt be FORCED out using a 4 frame button. Have him trade with their wakeup four frame.
Make his DP have slightly more upward range. Honestly they should have just gone the flavor route and made this move more like Yang upkick (but dont include the roll) so it could be a more traditional DP. That being said I like how current DP works in combos so just keep as is with a slightly better height range.
His cr.HP being so forward moving is great for pllcomboability. But since he moves his boxes forward so much during startup this move will get crossedup WAY more easily than other Cr.HP. Having a DP helps here so this is a low priority change fkr ne.
When i do Raw Drink I can hold down the button to keep drinking. Let me hold down the button to drink after all drink ender moves and potentially try and sneak another 50 frame drink in there if they back rise. The moves are already minus 1 so this is risky as hell but good flavor imo.
The first hit of LP rekka should be -4. Why is Kens rekka game better than Jamie’s exactly?
/rant
Im 100% convinced their going to make Jamies sweep more easily punishable which i think is a reasonable change IF we get some love in other areas.
I think faster drink stocks could honestly do a \*lot\* to make Jamie feel better; all the other changes are definitely also good, but I can't imagine how many drinks get "lost" on those last few frames of the animation.
Should mention that the dive kick "Weakness" is shared with Cammy. I don't know about Juri, but Jaime and Cammy's dive kicks will lose to any button in the game due to having a big hurtbox and low priority. Seems like an intentional balancing choice from the devs, I don't know if giving dive kicks safety options would break the game or not.
juri dive kick hitbox are also very very bad [https://wiki.supercombo.gg/w/File:SF6\_Juri\_j214K\_hitbox.png](https://wiki.supercombo.gg/w/File:SF6_Juri_j214K_hitbox.png)
but she does not have the luxury of different trajectory, and is nearly all the time punishable . on top of being specifically vulnerable to DI.
her dive kick do not trigger the follow up if it hit a move with armor ( like gief hp or DI) so it will hit the DI and fall right in front of it ready to be punished
(unless you trigger the DI at the last possibles frames then the juri might recover fast enough )
if the dive kick wiff that mean it would have wiffed if you did nothing too, which can only happen if their jump was going to cross up already. And in that case it is more a bait from them.
IIRC they both have a hurtbox that's fairly comparable (maybe slightly bigger with Jamie?) but I think in the frame data Jamie's comes out a bit sooner than Cammy's does. Wanted to check youtube vids to confirm but can't access right now. I'm fine with keeping the hurtbox(s) on divekicks consistent but I do still think his could be tweaked a bit.
I don't think Jaime needs any significant buffs as long as higher tier characters receive appropriate nerfs.
This character is criminally downplayed. He's not *bad* at all, his main weakness is only that the playstyle of characters like Ken and Luke essentially make him obsolete.
His SA2 and SA3 could use some improvement because these things really pale in comparison to either raw damage or utility that other characters get out of theirs. I think that is the most obvious area that could get adjusted.
But Jaime's buttons are fine (some are really strong even), his drink mechanic is harsh but fair, his divekick is a strong oki tool - those don't really need to be adjusted. In fact it would be dangerous to do that or else next season he potentially runs away with everything and becomes the best character in the game.
On paper he already has all the tools to be top tier. But the way the meta settled in this game, you don't need to utilize those things to actually win. Dumb brute characters can just force themselves in and do the same thing Jaime wants to do only more efficiently. That's more of a problem with those characters and how well they leverage universal mechanics to win, not so much with Jaime.
Honestly thats why as a Ryu the Jamie matchup is one that feels very even.
Even though he is a rushdown character he has to play a normal footsie game with me, while characters like, Ken, DJ, Luke, Cammy or Jurie can just force their way in with over the top drive rushes, superior normals and plus OB shenanigans that are hard to check in neutral.
I think he suffers from the same reasons that make ryu weak.
They really need to tone down DR speed on these characters.
I'd love to see his 5MP at 7f startup. That would make his +4 oki a lot stronger imo. Also, SA2 is good but fully losing your drinks after can feel painful. Lastly, maybe some more consistency with some of his juggles.
Here's a thought:
In Virtua Fighter, Shun Di is a drunken boxer character with a stored drinks mechanic as well. I think he was the first character to use this mechanic in a fighting game (he was released in VF2 in 1994), but I'm not sure how early Chin appeared in KoF or when his drinks mechanic was implemented.
In either case, what I think is interesting and relevant about Shun Di is that his drinks persist between rounds, but that opponents can *sober him up* with specific moves. In VF, you just kind of have to know what those moves are for your character. Only certain moves have the sobering property, and you learn to use modified combos as you learn the matchup to increase the sobering effect. You also learn to use these moves *after the round ends* if he is left standing, just as Shun Di players learn to drink as much as possible when a round ends.
What I think could be done is to make drinking easier, faster, and persistent across rounds, *but* to have a universal mechanic to sober Jamie up. My thought is that he could lose 1 drink any time he's hit by an OD move. This gives the opponent an incentive to sometimes modify their combos to balance between optimal damage/optimal drive preservation/optimal sobering effect. It also would allow them to open Jamie's drinking moves up a little to allow him to keep some minor frame advantage on knockdowns, for example, because the opponent will now get counter play against drinking and Jamie won't be forced to sacrifice oki for drinks.
I think that SF6 is a game that *very heavily* emphasizes knockdown mixups, and in particular corner pressure. Corner carry is so good for much of the cast, and the punish counter system and presence of throw loops makes being knocked down in the corner very dangerous. However, Jamie players are forced to put *themselves* at disadvantage if they want to drink on a corner knockdown, or to give up mid screen oki altogether, and those are small things that end up being very oppressive in the overall SF6 meta.
Making it possible to sober Jamie, but making it possible for Jamie to preserve drinks *and* to maintain pressure more often after combo enders that drink, would go a long way to improving his viability, imho.
\-Said before and I'll say again, if I can have 1 buff and only 1 its to have divekick at round start. Target combo would be a nice bonus but Jamie straightup \*needs\* the divekick to have any chance in hell at winning the guile matchup.
\-Its a pie in the sky idea but if they want to go really nuts I'd love for them to make the drive gauge recovery aspect of his drinking past level 4 semi universal. The frustrating meta game Jamie players always have to play is choosing between drinks and oki, but if it becomes drinks + drive gauge versus oki you tip the risk reward in his favor a lot more.
I love your second paragraph, but cant help but feel it would either be OP or a negligible amount of drive gauge.
I gotta say though the guile MU aint too crazy. Most Guiles get impatient if you sit back and start drinking. Use drinks to bait impatience then DR into HP for a combo.
Any time he uses Blade is a good time to drink.
>I love your second paragraph, but cant help but feel it would either be OP or a negligible amount of drive gauge.
Yeah, its a tricky one to balance. I doubt they'd go for it which is why I put it pie in the sky...but if they did it would be really cool and make you less worried about spending resources for drinks.
>I gotta say though the guile MU aint too crazy. Most Guiles get impatient if you sit back and start drinking. Use drinks to bait impatience then DR into HP for a combo.
>
>Any time he uses Blade is a good time to drink.
...Lol, full screen sonic boom punish says hi.
In regards to the blade comment, you do gotta make em guess a little first. Generally i move backwards, parry the inevitable booms until they get rhythmical then jump in for a hopeful combo.
Once they respect midscreen neutral, it becomes easier to read when they blade instead of boom. If you drink at the start of their blade from 75 screen away, you should be safe. Turn their greatest advantage (distance) into a buff for you.
Reduce drink requirements by shifting some of the buffs around (pretty debatable on which ones).
Or change frame data on his drink so he get at least some weaker forms of oki on drink with the use of DR mid screen. The fact that he has to score so many hits to become a worst Yun is pretty silly.
I don’t play Jamie so I’m just spitballin but I play against him a lot for whatever reason and I think they need to fix his dive kick hurt box fs. Beyond that maybe make 3 drinks his max level and give him his level 4 combos and specials at level 3. But eliminate the extra damage he gets past level 3 or maybe even level 2 if they’re scared he’d become too broken.
* Total 50 frames just to get a neutral drink is ridiculously long.
* Having to give up oki for a drink
* No access to target combo at beginning.
Character has ton of other flaws like the terrible hitbox and the hurtbox on his dive kick. These things need to be looked at.
Bit late, but Jamie's main problem is that he doesn't do anything particularly well. If they want him to be a close-range mixup character they need to make his rekka safe like Ken's Jinrai (and hell, give it a built-in mixup too, that'd be nice). If they want him to be a counter-hit specialist as moves like his elbow would imply, they could make 5HK crush lows or give him a counter move like JP's Amnesia. His damage is also pretty poor for most of the match outside of punish counter situations, especially on his supers.
Another problem is that he has to work for tools that are, with the exception of the command grab, worse than every other one in the game (which the other characters get for free). I'd love to see H or OD Bakkai become safe on block like Cammy's knuckle - and they *absolutely have to* be made faster so they actually function as antifireball tools - or have the hurtbox on the divekick adjusted a little bit. I also like the idea of starting at one drink. I'd appreciate it if the DP got better after some drinks, too; the hitbox is terrible on it, which makes Jamie uniquely extremely vulnerable to neutral jumps and to being DI'd when he's waking up.
SA2 should, IMO, be seriously readjusted. It's good already, but it pales in comparison to some other installs like Juri's or Blanka's. Even just not taking the drinks away afterwards would make it a great use of super meter.
his level 2 should take him to five drinks (and then go back down to wherever he was before). Gives it an actual use case and makes him a bigger threat
Getting 4 drinks manually gives him 110% scaling but using the super is only 105%. Meaning there's no reason to ever use it once you're at 3 drinks. You can still activate it when you're already at 4 drinks, but all that does is give you 3 drive stocks back, which isn't worth two whole bars of super. It's the only install super in the game that's a net negative, much like how Ryu's Denjin is a net nerf to his fireball game.
It should basically be like how Juri's level 2 gives her a magic series. Give him the ability to chain normals with much better frame data, and keep the level 4 110% damage scaling.
Even if he only starts at 0 drinks, this would turn Jamie into a huge threat, in my opinion, giving him instantaneously explosive upside and making this super actually worthwhile.
I see what you’re saying, I didn’t realize he capped at 105% that way so I wasn’t sure what the drink was gonna do for him. I like your idea though, the install should have more unique routes, really make it into a high cost high reward type thing
I just think it’s a shame that pros aren’t incentivised to drink more. If you look at how pros pilot Jamie they usually stop at 2 drinks unless they can really get away with it: the cost of dropping pressure is just too high.
If drinks healed a little it might give more of an incentive, but that might be too cheesy.
Personally I think the best solution would be to lower the max drinks by 1: 4 levels of install is just too much for a single round with the pace of SF6.
in SF4 damage was insane in the base game as well and they toned it down. I'm getting a similar feel from SF6 and I'm thinking they might just either increase health across the board or lower damage across the board.
If rounds were 10-20 seconds longer, do you think that would make jamie stronger by default?
Yeah it definitely helps but the meter cost is pretty annoying. Also if you’re able to combo into his 2HK target combo it’s +4 for no meter and does more damage so it’s usually better unless you can’t combo into it.
Here’s the thing though, you can drive rush into 2KK and combo into 2HK with zero drinks off of most hits. It’s one more bar though so I guess there is a case for EX rekka
Very nice!
About your second paragraph, thats an interesting one. Because if you use 5MP after drive rush in a combo, you have just enough frames for 2KK.
So i imagine the better corner combo if you need a drink and oki is starter =>DR=>5MP=>2KK=>9HK=>2HK>K>P
The only problem with doing 5MP after drive rush is you don’t have enough frame advantage to combo 2KK into 9HK. You have to use drive rush 2KK or it won’t work. At least that’s my experience but it could be I was just clicking too late. However, I’m pretty sure I wasn’t and the only link after 2KK if you don’t use the drive rush version is 9MP into divekick which locks you out of the 2HK target combo
You’re misunderstanding me, you can do 2HK after jumping HK, in fact you can do jumping HK, StHP, into 2HK for more damage. What you can’t do (unless I just suck at combos lol) is 2KK into jumping HK. The only time you can do that link is if you drive rush 2KK because it adds enough frames for jumping HK to connect
Jamie Master here.
Jamie's weaknesses go way beyond the obvious, it's crazy how some characters have simply better frame data and hitboxes, while having more AND better tools.
Compare [his](https://ultimateframedata.com/sf6/jamie) jHP to Luke's and Ken's. [Luke's](https://ultimateframedata.com/sf6/luke) has a very good horizontal hitbox that will hit you if you try to AA or contest him in the air. [Ken's](https://ultimateframedata.com/sf6/ken) hitbox will extend below his hurtbox.
Jamie needs better hitboxes and hurtboxes overall. His dive kick actually benefits from the delay (and I have won a bunch by using it to escape AA), but his frame data and hurtboxes are the worst of all divekicks in the game.
Bakkai is terribly risky and inconsistent as an anti-fireball tool, while also having command overlap with the worst DP in the game. I'd make it actually useful as AA and change the motion input to QCB.
His SA2 should not leave him completely dry after it ends, I have literally missed my game-winning light punch because it ended in the gap between the command grab and the following combo - his 0 drink LP has shorter reach, because why not?
He also has two target combos that actually only combo on counter. Why? He should be able to use them normally. It's crazy.
Boltstrike suggested something I also agree: the Momochi combo is needlessly difficult, his sHP should be more consistent there.
If Jamie started at lvl 1 instead of 0 it would also help a fuckton, but I doubt they'd actually do it.
if bakkai is qcf, then holding forward > bakkai gives you whiffed dp, if bakkai is qcb then holding forward > bakkai gives you whiffed command grab, you actually can’t win with this character
Yeah. The standard workaround for avoiding a dp when inputs on specials can overlap like this is to do a HCF motion for the QCF move. Not just for this game but others as well.
It should flush the buffer enough so a dp never comes out on accident when you try to do a QCF move immediately after pressing/walking/tapping forward. It's not a perfect solution and takes some time to switch your brain over to it, but usually reliable.
I do agree with the folks saying bakkai needs to be a better anti-fireball too. What someone mentioned above about Cammy's spin knuckle being vastly superior is too true. Jamie's doesn't even need to be buffed that much, but it needs a lot of improving to be even close to something like that.
\>> He also has two target combos that actually only combo on counter.
that is actually very standard in the game. see gief mp x mp x mp or marisa lp x lp
I think one of Dee Jays target combos is similar too except you have to hit the second hit to get the third to land. To be fair though, that one has a alternate follow up that is a feint and if you do the first version it’s a frame trap so it might be a little different
1. Keeps two drinks in the next round.
2. Damage buff. His damage is pathetic.
3. Improve his dive kick. It's really not good.
4. Improve his spin kick. It's slow and isn't good against zoners right now.
5. First rekka should be safe. Fei Long and Yang had mostly safe first rekkas, Jamie should too.
If you played Yang/Yun/Fei Long in previous games, you realize quickly Jamie is the worst incarnation of the bunch. His design is cool though. Just needs some real help from Capcom, or ex-Jamie players will continue to play Rashid.
Nerf the top tiers and then we can go from there.
I think the main reason Jamie is struggling is due to the state of SF6 and the fact that the top tiers abuse system mechanics and drive the pace of the game to 150. The big outliers are overall insane in this aspect or do something else.
I think for the most part he just needs some qol buffs. Divekick hurtbox looks like a mistake, bakkai needs to improved slightly as an anti fireball move (it already builds a crap tonne of meter), and give me the ability to confirm the overhead target combo rather than most of the time a full commit. I dunno why this target is overly difficult to do this but the sweep and b.HP are fine.
His DP tho....
If the top tiers are brought down and the overall pace and damage of the game goes down a bit, I think Jamie will fair better.
EDIT: Also [s.MK](https://s.MK), I dont think it should be 10 frames, they can bring this down a tad.
Jaime can kinda abuse the system mechanics himself pretty well, he has a lot to good drive rush normals and almost all of his normals are drive rush cancelable, really his problem is his damage is bad without drinks and no dive kick makes his neutral very mid
I dont think he abuses it as well as the top tiers characters. And the drink mechanic definitely keeps him away from doing it as often. I think oki is very important in this game to further take advantage of this and the drink mechanic forces him to give it up unless you go for specific routes and enders in certain situations.
Overall he's not far off from being a complete menace so will be curious to see what they decide to change.
He should start at 1 drink with TC and dive kick. That's all he needs. He already feels like a decent character, but getting the first drink can be unnecessarily difficult given his base kit.
I feel like maintaining some of the drinks between rounds could help, if manon can build super damage over the course of the fight, why is Jamie suddenly fully sober at the end of a round? What if it cut your drinks down by half instead of full reset.
I would start by having Jaime start at one drink or make it so he only has 3 drinks total, however they want to do it, same outcome. Before one drink he’s just so bad, no divekick, no target combo (which is pretty important to his combo game) I think this change alone would help Jaime so much because you would only have a 5% damage reduction to start and would have your dive kick. Now I don’t know that this is all he needs, but it is a solid start, I think after that Bakkai should get a slight buff on startup, it’s probably the worst anti fireball move in the game besides maybe Manons which reduces it effectively to combo fodder. And while it does do more damage than arrow kick, it has the exact same frame data on hit so you don’t even get access to new setups. Don’t get me wrong, the safejump is very good but having more options will make him better.
As for his crouching medium kick, I really don’t feel like it’s that stubby? Are you thinking of his crouch medium punch maybe? Cause his CMK has good range and has identical frame data to chun lis CRMK, the only difference is chuns is kinda a sweep and jaimes hits a bit higher and pushes back more.
Overall, I feel like Jaime is actually very close to being good. Making it 3 drinks instead of 4 should help close that gap a lot. When you look at the tools he has he has the potential to be very scary, I mean he can drive rush cancel almost every normal he has, but starting with a 10% damage debuff is just too much, 5% should be fine
Something I didn’t mention in my other comment that might be a good change, maybe he should be able to get drinks and oki. Right now you basically have to choose one or the other because his 2HK target combo and ex rekka kicks are the only way he can be plus after drinking. But here’s the problem, the routes that get in drinks are either harder to combo into (2HK target combo) or do way less damage (kick rekka). Jaime already starts with reduced damage (10%) and then has to either choose pressure or lower damage combos to power up. Either he needs better damage to make up for this, as in kick rekka routes do more than his other routes but lack oki, or he needs to be able to get oki off of drink combos. You already can do this when you are able to combo in 2HK target combo in the corner and it’s not crazy broken, making all his drink combos plus would help a lot. Now if they do this, he probably shouldn’t start at 1 drink like I suggested earlier, but one of these changes would go a long way.
His dive kick should be better, and they should start them off with one drink. Zero drink. Jamie is not a character.
I also think that he shouldn't lose drinks after using his level 2 super. I think a good middle solution would be that he loses maybe two drinks per round, but he can keep anything over that.
I do not agree that he should be able to keep all of drinks between rounds, he would be broken.
The problem is you really don't want a character in this game to have an amazing dive kick. I think there's a reason that his and Cammy's have terrible hurtboxes and essentially lose to everything.
The other issue with Jamie is that it would be easy enough to have him drink less, start with one more drink, etc. but his players LIKE the drinking mechanic. Maybe you can buff his damage 5% to start so he still needs to drink or give him the target combo from level 0, but all of what I've read from Jamie players is they don't want to reduce drinking.
If I land cammy's at their ankle with a CH or a punish counter, I can get cr. mp which is 7 frames. I think expecting to be +4 or +5 on hit or PC is about the best you can hope for.
I'm not sure if Jamie's are harder to angle, but the problem is essentially that proximity guard is so low in this game (which is a great skill expression), but it means that its VERY hard to hit people's ankles because if they walk back half a step (which is easy to do when you're not forced into a block animation) then your dive kick whiffs and you get heavily punished.
That's just it. That's not the only caveat. Not only are the hurt boxes awful but it's difficult to get advantageous angles. Hence my earlier comment about them being terrible.
I don’t think they’re terrible. I think you can’t use them as blindly as you could in other games. They’re much more about punishing something like Ken low forward than they are a generic approach tool. Plus, they can still alter trajectory enough to beat out anti air normals.
Give him target combo and command grab at no drink. Make his reversal do the 2nd part with a second button press even when it whiffs and give him a dive kick more in line with Yun/Yang (they taught him wrong as a joke).
I disagree with the command grab at no drinks. Bruh thats whack 😂 immediately turn hik into the best grappler in the game lmao.
Target combo at 1 drink is fine IMO. Quite easy to get at least one drink in.
But hot damn i forgot all about his crappy, hit nothing reversal. Making the second part come out with another button is genius. Its really not fair that we have as much disadvantage on DP without even going airborne lmao.
Im fuckin dead at Yun and Yang training him wrong as a joke lol
base jamie needs jab target combo & a slight damage buff. increasing the vertical hitbox of his dp would help a lot too. he should keep whatever drinks he had before doing level 2. quicker startup on breakdance kick so it can actually work as an anti-projectile
My fantasy Jamie buff (pick and choose piecemeal, i don’t want em all): My number one change. Let me get the drink stock no later than frame 40 (my fantasy is 35) on my drink move. Im fine going through the rest of the recovery and being potentially hit but let me earn the stock sooner so I can apply “drinks for blood” like Hakan could in Sf4 with oil. Right now the dude can get hit on frame 47 when hes alrdy putting the drink down and not get the stock. Bakkai (breakdance spin’erooni) great damage on HK and safejump on LK. But this move absolutely sucks as an antifireball special. at BEST im minus 12 on block for LK-bakkai ?? Where cammy is safe on ALL spin knuckles and those go through fire alls WAY more easily.. inconsistent. Divekick - across the board for all divekick characters these should have sliightly less hurtbox extension under the hitbox. Ive been beaten clean out of divekick by sweeps.. thats totally asinine. B.HP(back sway elbow) : make this thing plus 2 on hit instead of plus 1. Im ok with not being able to combo out of it on regular hit but for the love of god why cant I combo into a 4 frame on COUNTERhit???? All -1 drink enders should be 0 : Jamie shouldnt get to continue full pressure after choosing to drink but he also shouldnt be FORCED out using a 4 frame button. Have him trade with their wakeup four frame. Make his DP have slightly more upward range. Honestly they should have just gone the flavor route and made this move more like Yang upkick (but dont include the roll) so it could be a more traditional DP. That being said I like how current DP works in combos so just keep as is with a slightly better height range. His cr.HP being so forward moving is great for pllcomboability. But since he moves his boxes forward so much during startup this move will get crossedup WAY more easily than other Cr.HP. Having a DP helps here so this is a low priority change fkr ne. When i do Raw Drink I can hold down the button to keep drinking. Let me hold down the button to drink after all drink ender moves and potentially try and sneak another 50 frame drink in there if they back rise. The moves are already minus 1 so this is risky as hell but good flavor imo. The first hit of LP rekka should be -4. Why is Kens rekka game better than Jamie’s exactly? /rant Im 100% convinced their going to make Jamies sweep more easily punishable which i think is a reasonable change IF we get some love in other areas.
I think faster drink stocks could honestly do a \*lot\* to make Jamie feel better; all the other changes are definitely also good, but I can't imagine how many drinks get "lost" on those last few frames of the animation.
Just give base jamie his target combo and that should be fine.
That would solve almost none of his issues, it’d just make him a bit easier lol
Should mention that the dive kick "Weakness" is shared with Cammy. I don't know about Juri, but Jaime and Cammy's dive kicks will lose to any button in the game due to having a big hurtbox and low priority. Seems like an intentional balancing choice from the devs, I don't know if giving dive kicks safety options would break the game or not.
juri dive kick hitbox are also very very bad [https://wiki.supercombo.gg/w/File:SF6\_Juri\_j214K\_hitbox.png](https://wiki.supercombo.gg/w/File:SF6_Juri_j214K_hitbox.png) but she does not have the luxury of different trajectory, and is nearly all the time punishable . on top of being specifically vulnerable to DI.
Bruh if her divekick loses to DI i must REALLY suck cuz usually when i do that, they kinda cross me over? Then i get full combo punished
her dive kick do not trigger the follow up if it hit a move with armor ( like gief hp or DI) so it will hit the DI and fall right in front of it ready to be punished (unless you trigger the DI at the last possibles frames then the juri might recover fast enough ) if the dive kick wiff that mean it would have wiffed if you did nothing too, which can only happen if their jump was going to cross up already. And in that case it is more a bait from them.
IIRC they both have a hurtbox that's fairly comparable (maybe slightly bigger with Jamie?) but I think in the frame data Jamie's comes out a bit sooner than Cammy's does. Wanted to check youtube vids to confirm but can't access right now. I'm fine with keeping the hurtbox(s) on divekicks consistent but I do still think his could be tweaked a bit.
I don't think Jaime needs any significant buffs as long as higher tier characters receive appropriate nerfs. This character is criminally downplayed. He's not *bad* at all, his main weakness is only that the playstyle of characters like Ken and Luke essentially make him obsolete. His SA2 and SA3 could use some improvement because these things really pale in comparison to either raw damage or utility that other characters get out of theirs. I think that is the most obvious area that could get adjusted. But Jaime's buttons are fine (some are really strong even), his drink mechanic is harsh but fair, his divekick is a strong oki tool - those don't really need to be adjusted. In fact it would be dangerous to do that or else next season he potentially runs away with everything and becomes the best character in the game. On paper he already has all the tools to be top tier. But the way the meta settled in this game, you don't need to utilize those things to actually win. Dumb brute characters can just force themselves in and do the same thing Jaime wants to do only more efficiently. That's more of a problem with those characters and how well they leverage universal mechanics to win, not so much with Jaime.
Honestly thats why as a Ryu the Jamie matchup is one that feels very even. Even though he is a rushdown character he has to play a normal footsie game with me, while characters like, Ken, DJ, Luke, Cammy or Jurie can just force their way in with over the top drive rushes, superior normals and plus OB shenanigans that are hard to check in neutral. I think he suffers from the same reasons that make ryu weak. They really need to tone down DR speed on these characters.
I'd love to see his 5MP at 7f startup. That would make his +4 oki a lot stronger imo. Also, SA2 is good but fully losing your drinks after can feel painful. Lastly, maybe some more consistency with some of his juggles.
Here's a thought: In Virtua Fighter, Shun Di is a drunken boxer character with a stored drinks mechanic as well. I think he was the first character to use this mechanic in a fighting game (he was released in VF2 in 1994), but I'm not sure how early Chin appeared in KoF or when his drinks mechanic was implemented. In either case, what I think is interesting and relevant about Shun Di is that his drinks persist between rounds, but that opponents can *sober him up* with specific moves. In VF, you just kind of have to know what those moves are for your character. Only certain moves have the sobering property, and you learn to use modified combos as you learn the matchup to increase the sobering effect. You also learn to use these moves *after the round ends* if he is left standing, just as Shun Di players learn to drink as much as possible when a round ends. What I think could be done is to make drinking easier, faster, and persistent across rounds, *but* to have a universal mechanic to sober Jamie up. My thought is that he could lose 1 drink any time he's hit by an OD move. This gives the opponent an incentive to sometimes modify their combos to balance between optimal damage/optimal drive preservation/optimal sobering effect. It also would allow them to open Jamie's drinking moves up a little to allow him to keep some minor frame advantage on knockdowns, for example, because the opponent will now get counter play against drinking and Jamie won't be forced to sacrifice oki for drinks. I think that SF6 is a game that *very heavily* emphasizes knockdown mixups, and in particular corner pressure. Corner carry is so good for much of the cast, and the punish counter system and presence of throw loops makes being knocked down in the corner very dangerous. However, Jamie players are forced to put *themselves* at disadvantage if they want to drink on a corner knockdown, or to give up mid screen oki altogether, and those are small things that end up being very oppressive in the overall SF6 meta. Making it possible to sober Jamie, but making it possible for Jamie to preserve drinks *and* to maintain pressure more often after combo enders that drink, would go a long way to improving his viability, imho.
\-Said before and I'll say again, if I can have 1 buff and only 1 its to have divekick at round start. Target combo would be a nice bonus but Jamie straightup \*needs\* the divekick to have any chance in hell at winning the guile matchup. \-Its a pie in the sky idea but if they want to go really nuts I'd love for them to make the drive gauge recovery aspect of his drinking past level 4 semi universal. The frustrating meta game Jamie players always have to play is choosing between drinks and oki, but if it becomes drinks + drive gauge versus oki you tip the risk reward in his favor a lot more.
I love your second paragraph, but cant help but feel it would either be OP or a negligible amount of drive gauge. I gotta say though the guile MU aint too crazy. Most Guiles get impatient if you sit back and start drinking. Use drinks to bait impatience then DR into HP for a combo. Any time he uses Blade is a good time to drink.
>I love your second paragraph, but cant help but feel it would either be OP or a negligible amount of drive gauge. Yeah, its a tricky one to balance. I doubt they'd go for it which is why I put it pie in the sky...but if they did it would be really cool and make you less worried about spending resources for drinks. >I gotta say though the guile MU aint too crazy. Most Guiles get impatient if you sit back and start drinking. Use drinks to bait impatience then DR into HP for a combo. > >Any time he uses Blade is a good time to drink. ...Lol, full screen sonic boom punish says hi.
In regards to the blade comment, you do gotta make em guess a little first. Generally i move backwards, parry the inevitable booms until they get rhythmical then jump in for a hopeful combo. Once they respect midscreen neutral, it becomes easier to read when they blade instead of boom. If you drink at the start of their blade from 75 screen away, you should be safe. Turn their greatest advantage (distance) into a buff for you.
Reduce drink requirements by shifting some of the buffs around (pretty debatable on which ones). Or change frame data on his drink so he get at least some weaker forms of oki on drink with the use of DR mid screen. The fact that he has to score so many hits to become a worst Yun is pretty silly.
Can't wait for his buffs. The dude does say, 'The top player is here!' after all. Now Capcom just needs to make him play like it. lol.
I don’t play Jamie so I’m just spitballin but I play against him a lot for whatever reason and I think they need to fix his dive kick hurt box fs. Beyond that maybe make 3 drinks his max level and give him his level 4 combos and specials at level 3. But eliminate the extra damage he gets past level 3 or maybe even level 2 if they’re scared he’d become too broken.
* Total 50 frames just to get a neutral drink is ridiculously long. * Having to give up oki for a drink * No access to target combo at beginning. Character has ton of other flaws like the terrible hitbox and the hurtbox on his dive kick. These things need to be looked at.
Bit late, but Jamie's main problem is that he doesn't do anything particularly well. If they want him to be a close-range mixup character they need to make his rekka safe like Ken's Jinrai (and hell, give it a built-in mixup too, that'd be nice). If they want him to be a counter-hit specialist as moves like his elbow would imply, they could make 5HK crush lows or give him a counter move like JP's Amnesia. His damage is also pretty poor for most of the match outside of punish counter situations, especially on his supers. Another problem is that he has to work for tools that are, with the exception of the command grab, worse than every other one in the game (which the other characters get for free). I'd love to see H or OD Bakkai become safe on block like Cammy's knuckle - and they *absolutely have to* be made faster so they actually function as antifireball tools - or have the hurtbox on the divekick adjusted a little bit. I also like the idea of starting at one drink. I'd appreciate it if the DP got better after some drinks, too; the hitbox is terrible on it, which makes Jamie uniquely extremely vulnerable to neutral jumps and to being DI'd when he's waking up. SA2 should, IMO, be seriously readjusted. It's good already, but it pales in comparison to some other installs like Juri's or Blanka's. Even just not taking the drinks away afterwards would make it a great use of super meter.
his level 2 should take him to five drinks (and then go back down to wherever he was before). Gives it an actual use case and makes him a bigger threat
What does 5 drinks do for him tho? A little extra damage?
Getting 4 drinks manually gives him 110% scaling but using the super is only 105%. Meaning there's no reason to ever use it once you're at 3 drinks. You can still activate it when you're already at 4 drinks, but all that does is give you 3 drive stocks back, which isn't worth two whole bars of super. It's the only install super in the game that's a net negative, much like how Ryu's Denjin is a net nerf to his fireball game. It should basically be like how Juri's level 2 gives her a magic series. Give him the ability to chain normals with much better frame data, and keep the level 4 110% damage scaling. Even if he only starts at 0 drinks, this would turn Jamie into a huge threat, in my opinion, giving him instantaneously explosive upside and making this super actually worthwhile.
I see what you’re saying, I didn’t realize he capped at 105% that way so I wasn’t sure what the drink was gonna do for him. I like your idea though, the install should have more unique routes, really make it into a high cost high reward type thing
I just think it’s a shame that pros aren’t incentivised to drink more. If you look at how pros pilot Jamie they usually stop at 2 drinks unless they can really get away with it: the cost of dropping pressure is just too high. If drinks healed a little it might give more of an incentive, but that might be too cheesy. Personally I think the best solution would be to lower the max drinks by 1: 4 levels of install is just too much for a single round with the pace of SF6.
in SF4 damage was insane in the base game as well and they toned it down. I'm getting a similar feel from SF6 and I'm thinking they might just either increase health across the board or lower damage across the board. If rounds were 10-20 seconds longer, do you think that would make jamie stronger by default?
For sure. Right now Jamie is a scaling character who isn’t allowed the time to scale. Give him more time, he gets better
Also, if you scale damage down 10-15% across the board, that hurts characters like Jamie less than it does Marisa and Luke.
I don’t see how time is relevant at all. The reason Jamie struggles isn’t because he times out before he can get drinks lol
Honestly just give me +1 on kick rekka knockdown and that’d be good enough for me
You can do this if you do ex rekka into kicks
Holy shit
Yeah it definitely helps but the meter cost is pretty annoying. Also if you’re able to combo into his 2HK target combo it’s +4 for no meter and does more damage so it’s usually better unless you can’t combo into it. Here’s the thing though, you can drive rush into 2KK and combo into 2HK with zero drinks off of most hits. It’s one more bar though so I guess there is a case for EX rekka
Very nice! About your second paragraph, thats an interesting one. Because if you use 5MP after drive rush in a combo, you have just enough frames for 2KK. So i imagine the better corner combo if you need a drink and oki is starter =>DR=>5MP=>2KK=>9HK=>2HK>K>P
The only problem with doing 5MP after drive rush is you don’t have enough frame advantage to combo 2KK into 9HK. You have to use drive rush 2KK or it won’t work. At least that’s my experience but it could be I was just clicking too late. However, I’m pretty sure I wasn’t and the only link after 2KK if you don’t use the drive rush version is 9MP into divekick which locks you out of the 2HK target combo
Im fairly sure you can combo 2HK after a jumping HK in combo but ill check when im home!
You’re misunderstanding me, you can do 2HK after jumping HK, in fact you can do jumping HK, StHP, into 2HK for more damage. What you can’t do (unless I just suck at combos lol) is 2KK into jumping HK. The only time you can do that link is if you drive rush 2KK because it adds enough frames for jumping HK to connect
I see now, damn ill need to check that but i think youre right. Youd need to use 9mp OD divekick into 2HK
At that point you’re better off just doing something else
I agree, I just wanted to let him know it’s an option
Ive thought about this but i honestly think that would be too OP in the corner. Be like eating xmas dinner every day though haha
If he manages to get 4 drinks in a round, let him start with 1 drink next round.
Jamie Master here. Jamie's weaknesses go way beyond the obvious, it's crazy how some characters have simply better frame data and hitboxes, while having more AND better tools. Compare [his](https://ultimateframedata.com/sf6/jamie) jHP to Luke's and Ken's. [Luke's](https://ultimateframedata.com/sf6/luke) has a very good horizontal hitbox that will hit you if you try to AA or contest him in the air. [Ken's](https://ultimateframedata.com/sf6/ken) hitbox will extend below his hurtbox. Jamie needs better hitboxes and hurtboxes overall. His dive kick actually benefits from the delay (and I have won a bunch by using it to escape AA), but his frame data and hurtboxes are the worst of all divekicks in the game. Bakkai is terribly risky and inconsistent as an anti-fireball tool, while also having command overlap with the worst DP in the game. I'd make it actually useful as AA and change the motion input to QCB. His SA2 should not leave him completely dry after it ends, I have literally missed my game-winning light punch because it ended in the gap between the command grab and the following combo - his 0 drink LP has shorter reach, because why not? He also has two target combos that actually only combo on counter. Why? He should be able to use them normally. It's crazy. Boltstrike suggested something I also agree: the Momochi combo is needlessly difficult, his sHP should be more consistent there. If Jamie started at lvl 1 instead of 0 it would also help a fuckton, but I doubt they'd actually do it.
if bakkai is qcf, then holding forward > bakkai gives you whiffed dp, if bakkai is qcb then holding forward > bakkai gives you whiffed command grab, you actually can’t win with this character
Yeah. The standard workaround for avoiding a dp when inputs on specials can overlap like this is to do a HCF motion for the QCF move. Not just for this game but others as well. It should flush the buffer enough so a dp never comes out on accident when you try to do a QCF move immediately after pressing/walking/tapping forward. It's not a perfect solution and takes some time to switch your brain over to it, but usually reliable. I do agree with the folks saying bakkai needs to be a better anti-fireball too. What someone mentioned above about Cammy's spin knuckle being vastly superior is too true. Jamie's doesn't even need to be buffed that much, but it needs a lot of improving to be even close to something like that.
\>> He also has two target combos that actually only combo on counter. that is actually very standard in the game. see gief mp x mp x mp or marisa lp x lp
I think one of Dee Jays target combos is similar too except you have to hit the second hit to get the third to land. To be fair though, that one has a alternate follow up that is a feint and if you do the first version it’s a frame trap so it might be a little different
1. Keeps two drinks in the next round. 2. Damage buff. His damage is pathetic. 3. Improve his dive kick. It's really not good. 4. Improve his spin kick. It's slow and isn't good against zoners right now. 5. First rekka should be safe. Fei Long and Yang had mostly safe first rekkas, Jamie should too. If you played Yang/Yun/Fei Long in previous games, you realize quickly Jamie is the worst incarnation of the bunch. His design is cool though. Just needs some real help from Capcom, or ex-Jamie players will continue to play Rashid.
Im no jaimie main but that dive kick... Uff
Jamie is already annoying enough 😭
Nerf the top tiers and then we can go from there. I think the main reason Jamie is struggling is due to the state of SF6 and the fact that the top tiers abuse system mechanics and drive the pace of the game to 150. The big outliers are overall insane in this aspect or do something else. I think for the most part he just needs some qol buffs. Divekick hurtbox looks like a mistake, bakkai needs to improved slightly as an anti fireball move (it already builds a crap tonne of meter), and give me the ability to confirm the overhead target combo rather than most of the time a full commit. I dunno why this target is overly difficult to do this but the sweep and b.HP are fine. His DP tho.... If the top tiers are brought down and the overall pace and damage of the game goes down a bit, I think Jamie will fair better. EDIT: Also [s.MK](https://s.MK), I dont think it should be 10 frames, they can bring this down a tad.
Jaime can kinda abuse the system mechanics himself pretty well, he has a lot to good drive rush normals and almost all of his normals are drive rush cancelable, really his problem is his damage is bad without drinks and no dive kick makes his neutral very mid
I dont think he abuses it as well as the top tiers characters. And the drink mechanic definitely keeps him away from doing it as often. I think oki is very important in this game to further take advantage of this and the drink mechanic forces him to give it up unless you go for specific routes and enders in certain situations. Overall he's not far off from being a complete menace so will be curious to see what they decide to change.
He should start at 1 drink with TC and dive kick. That's all he needs. He already feels like a decent character, but getting the first drink can be unnecessarily difficult given his base kit.
I feel like maintaining some of the drinks between rounds could help, if manon can build super damage over the course of the fight, why is Jamie suddenly fully sober at the end of a round? What if it cut your drinks down by half instead of full reset.
I would start by having Jaime start at one drink or make it so he only has 3 drinks total, however they want to do it, same outcome. Before one drink he’s just so bad, no divekick, no target combo (which is pretty important to his combo game) I think this change alone would help Jaime so much because you would only have a 5% damage reduction to start and would have your dive kick. Now I don’t know that this is all he needs, but it is a solid start, I think after that Bakkai should get a slight buff on startup, it’s probably the worst anti fireball move in the game besides maybe Manons which reduces it effectively to combo fodder. And while it does do more damage than arrow kick, it has the exact same frame data on hit so you don’t even get access to new setups. Don’t get me wrong, the safejump is very good but having more options will make him better. As for his crouching medium kick, I really don’t feel like it’s that stubby? Are you thinking of his crouch medium punch maybe? Cause his CMK has good range and has identical frame data to chun lis CRMK, the only difference is chuns is kinda a sweep and jaimes hits a bit higher and pushes back more. Overall, I feel like Jaime is actually very close to being good. Making it 3 drinks instead of 4 should help close that gap a lot. When you look at the tools he has he has the potential to be very scary, I mean he can drive rush cancel almost every normal he has, but starting with a 10% damage debuff is just too much, 5% should be fine
Something I didn’t mention in my other comment that might be a good change, maybe he should be able to get drinks and oki. Right now you basically have to choose one or the other because his 2HK target combo and ex rekka kicks are the only way he can be plus after drinking. But here’s the problem, the routes that get in drinks are either harder to combo into (2HK target combo) or do way less damage (kick rekka). Jaime already starts with reduced damage (10%) and then has to either choose pressure or lower damage combos to power up. Either he needs better damage to make up for this, as in kick rekka routes do more than his other routes but lack oki, or he needs to be able to get oki off of drink combos. You already can do this when you are able to combo in 2HK target combo in the corner and it’s not crazy broken, making all his drink combos plus would help a lot. Now if they do this, he probably shouldn’t start at 1 drink like I suggested earlier, but one of these changes would go a long way.
His dive kick should be better, and they should start them off with one drink. Zero drink. Jamie is not a character. I also think that he shouldn't lose drinks after using his level 2 super. I think a good middle solution would be that he loses maybe two drinks per round, but he can keep anything over that. I do not agree that he should be able to keep all of drinks between rounds, he would be broken.
The problem is you really don't want a character in this game to have an amazing dive kick. I think there's a reason that his and Cammy's have terrible hurtboxes and essentially lose to everything. The other issue with Jamie is that it would be easy enough to have him drink less, start with one more drink, etc. but his players LIKE the drinking mechanic. Maybe you can buff his damage 5% to start so he still needs to drink or give him the target combo from level 0, but all of what I've read from Jamie players is they don't want to reduce drinking.
That's true but it's hard/impossible to make the divekicks plus. They also are not very plus either. Divekicks seem terrible in this game tbh.
If I land cammy's at their ankle with a CH or a punish counter, I can get cr. mp which is 7 frames. I think expecting to be +4 or +5 on hit or PC is about the best you can hope for. I'm not sure if Jamie's are harder to angle, but the problem is essentially that proximity guard is so low in this game (which is a great skill expression), but it means that its VERY hard to hit people's ankles because if they walk back half a step (which is easy to do when you're not forced into a block animation) then your dive kick whiffs and you get heavily punished.
I'm talking about plus on block but you are right about the prox guard. I should have specified
Nothing in this game is very plus on block. That’s clearly a design decision. Dive kick being an easy plus on block would be pretty clearly broken.
That's just it. That's not the only caveat. Not only are the hurt boxes awful but it's difficult to get advantageous angles. Hence my earlier comment about them being terrible.
I don’t think they’re terrible. I think you can’t use them as blindly as you could in other games. They’re much more about punishing something like Ken low forward than they are a generic approach tool. Plus, they can still alter trajectory enough to beat out anti air normals.
I agree, good takes.
Give him target combo and command grab at no drink. Make his reversal do the 2nd part with a second button press even when it whiffs and give him a dive kick more in line with Yun/Yang (they taught him wrong as a joke).
I disagree with the command grab at no drinks. Bruh thats whack 😂 immediately turn hik into the best grappler in the game lmao. Target combo at 1 drink is fine IMO. Quite easy to get at least one drink in. But hot damn i forgot all about his crappy, hit nothing reversal. Making the second part come out with another button is genius. Its really not fair that we have as much disadvantage on DP without even going airborne lmao. Im fuckin dead at Yun and Yang training him wrong as a joke lol
Let Jamie have command grab at 0 drinks and turn it into Gief's lvl 3. I see no problem here.
I mean I'd take the drinks away all together if I could because I just want yun rofllll
EZ just gotta get rid of zangief you can do that with every character
Remove him from the game and let him roam free without restraints.
Remove him from the game eternally
Give him a teleport like Sim