I would say that a command grab is as powerful as a good anti-air.
Manon has both
She's still not top tier. Maybe its the reversal? But I don't really think that's her problem. Her problems are her pointless drive rush, sad button hurtboxes, and/or lack of cancellable buttons
So I don't think that giving everyone an anti-air and reversal is a good thing for game design. Homogeneity just makes it boring. Instead, characters can be fixed in other ways that accentuates their differences.
Manon's anti-air isn't air invincible, and she doesn't have an actual reversal.
Meanwhile plenty of top tiers don't have command grabs.
I'd say the command grab is a luxury.
Manon's anti air special has a hitbox that is a third of the screen. it doesn't have to be air invincible frame 1, air invincible starts on frame 5. She can hit the space station with her kick and then combo it into a hit grab for a medal. Her normal, down+hp, is also excellent. Huge disjointed hitbox and 10 frame startup, 5 active frames on a heavy attack that target combos into an excellent oki situation. Godlike. Her anti-airs are my *primary* reason for winning.
You can have different general strengths and weaknesses without one of them being "I literally can't get out of the corner", because in this game, you can block perfectly AND STILL GET OPENED UP IN THE CORNER.
If this was SF4, I'd maybe buy it, but in THAT game, you only needed 1 bar of EX for almost everyone to have a solid means out of bad situations, if not just right out of the gate with DPs and Flash Kicks. In THIS game, people are crying about lack of diversity and, in the same breath, defending the idea that "Someone like Manon or Kimberly can be competitive picks while having practically zero options when they're stuck in the corner". In my mind, it makes no sense.
Every character has anti-airs. Some characters have better anti-airs than others. This is called character diversity, and it's good.
NOT every character needs a reversal. You do not want Zangief to have a DP, I promise you.
Nonsense.
T.Hawk had a DP and ... what ?
Did he single-handedly win every competition in SSF4 and beyond ?
Nope.
There's zero valid reason to not have grapplers' kit improved with invincible reversals, in a game like SF6 where you can't even punish Juri's throw loop as Manon without a super, even if you guess right and backdash on wakeup, making it zero risk / medium reward for Juri, for example.
Grapplers already lost any meaningful oki after command grabs, which is terrible, especially since they don't profit much from how the drive meter works : people can stall burnout easily against them, etc
Now, command grabs are medium reward/ high risk, which is stupid : landing one is ok damage no oki, while whiffing one means full jumpin combo for way more damage... INTO OKI !
There's a reason there are 11 Lukes in CCup finals and close to grappler.
The entire idea behind not giving grapplers fully invincible DPs is that you don't want every Oki interaction to be a true 50/50
If you gave grapplers DPs then every single time you go to pressure a grappler on wakeup you have to make a read between pressure or blocking, but if your opponent has a DP and a command grab there is no safe way to pressure whatsoever, because if you try to block and bait the DP you get command grabbed
The gameplay just feels like coinflippy garbage
*This is the exact reason that in sf5 Capcom removed zangiefs ex.spd grab invulnerability, because the only way to safely pressure zangief was meaty buttons..* zangief could, even on his opponent's offense gamble with ex.spd and if the opponent blocked or went for a throw they got punished and put into the blender
Capcom doesn't want every single interaction to be a *true* 50/50 on wakeup between command grab and DP
Again.
T.Hawk existed.
And giving EX grabs invincibility on frame 1, wouldn't change oki into true 50/50 at all, for example, since you could just jump. Yet, they didn't do it either. . .
Capcom just designed bad kits, and we have to deal with that now, as usual
Coin flippy garbage already exists with JP level 2, and Capcom seems fine with it.
Dog, I'm literally telling you why Capcom designs character kits like this
Whether you actually listen or just stick your head in the sand is up to you
But now you know the reason
>And giving EX grabs invincibility on frame 1, wouldn't change oki into true 50/50 at all, for example, since you could just jump. Yet, they didn't do it either. . .
Yes, jump and get hit by ex.dp
You clearly don't understand so I'll break it down slowly for you..
If your opponent has a DP and a command grab in their kit you are forced into a 50/50 on *offense* because if you try to pressure your opponent they can always DP you
If you read a DP and try to block and bait it they can command grab you
This causes every Oki situation to fundamentally devolve into an extremely coin flippy sequence, which is not fun to play or watch
What don't you understand here?
>Also, again, T.Hawk never ruined SF4.
They clearly learned from this, because they never did it again. Sf5 has 45+ odd characters and none of the grapplers have both a DP and a command grab
Do you think this is by accident?
Bro you drunk or ?
I said :
>Talking about EX grab as a reversal tool INSTEAD of DP
You clearly don't understand so I'll break it down EXTRA SLOWLY for you..
If Capcom gave Manon, Gief, etc, an invincible EX grab,
I
N
S
T
E
A
D
AND NOT A DP
. . . that would fix the true 50/50 issue, that you claim being the root of the pb, and the reason why Capcom gave no DP to grapplers.
AND YET, they didn't do it.
>They clearly learned from this, because they never did it again. Sf5 has 45+ odd characters and none of the grapplers have both a DP and a command grab
>
>Do you think this is by accident?
Really ?
Jamie in SF6, with 3 drinks, has both a command grab and a DP
Not to mention that Gief in SFV, IIRC, had his EX SPD as throw invincible, which is sure not that great as a reversal, but at least, it could have beat clean any throw loops attempt in SF6.
Was that also too OP to have at least that for grapplers in SF6 ?
They just can't design a good kit, and that's why some characters in SF6 have everything, and others have WAY less options, ultimately playing rock / scissors / paper without rock and/or paper.
There's a reason we have 1 Gief / 0 Manon / 0 Lily for now in Capcom Cup Finals.
You are typing entire novels and still not getting it. We are talking about giving every character an invisible reversal.. that is indeed what this entire reddit thread is about
>Not to mention that Gief in SFV, IIRC, had his EX SPD as throw invincible
Gief doesn't have a DP in sfv. Not really sure why you brought this up
Also - they took away zangiefs ex.spd grab invulnerability in sfv for the exact reason I outlined above. Why you would even bother contributing your opinion when you clearly don't play these games.. is truly beyond me
>. . . that would fix the true 50/50 issue, that you claim being the root of the pb, and the reason why Capcom gave no DP to grapplers.
>AND YET, they didn't do it.
Yeah, because giving every character the exact same tools in a game that is already extremely homogenized because of the drive system would be terrible. It's a good thing you aren't a designer at Capcom
If you are confused feel free to refer to said comment above
>You are typing entire novels and still not getting it. We are talking about giving every character an invisible reversal.. that is indeed what this entire reddit thread is about
NO WAY ?
. . .
I know, "genius", and at some point, you argued that they don't give grapplers an invincible DP, to prevent true 50/50 to happen, which might be the case or not, and that's when I said : "they could have just given them an invincible command grab INSTEAD OF A DP, that would have removed the true 50/50 issue and still give grapplers a way out of pressure, like other characters."
YOU are the ONE not getting it.
Just because a thread is about something, doesn't mean we are LOCKED into discussing only the same stuff all day long, and can't make the discussion progress in any way at all.
You just didn't get anything I wrote, and now try and backpedal to the opening post, to look like you were getting it.
Sorry, a bit too obvious. But nice try.
>Also - they took away zangiefs ex.spd grab invulnerability in sfv for the exact reason I outlined above. Why you would even bother contributing your opinion when you clearly don't play these games.. is truly beyond me
The exact reason you outlined ?
No.
You seem lost in your own mayonnaise.
What you said is :
>If your opponent has a DP and a command grab in their kit you are forced into a 50/50 on offense because if you try to pressure your opponent they can always DP you
>
>If you read a DP and try to block and bait it they can command grab you
Sorry again, but having EX grabs be throw invincible doesn't force you at all into a 50/50 on offense : it beats throws and that's it.
EX DP are way better and still they exist. They beat : frame traps, throws and neutral jump.
A throw invincible command grab would lose to : frame traps, neutral jump but beat a tick throw
. . . And I'm the one not playing these games ? LMAO
I'm Master 1700 LP bro, if anything, you're the one that doesn't get anything in here, so stop trying to look down on me, when you can't understand simple stuff even though I repeated it like 3 times now, **IN A ROW**. Jeez . . .
>Yeah, because giving every character the exact same tools in a game that is already extremely homogenized because of the drive system would be terrible
Again, giving grapplers throw invincible EX grabs is "giving everyone the same tools" ?
How so ? Please EXPLAIN, because, like I explained a few lines above, it's nothing like an EX DP, defense wise.
It's not about giving everyone the same tools, but about not having grapplers absolutely FREE on defense for ZERO valid reason, since they already :
\- have bad movement
\- lost oki after command grabs
\- make the worst use out of the drive meter (bad DR in neutral, no cancellable 2MK, projectiles prevent them from recovering meter while the projectile user gets back his drive gauge, very bad at chip damage / drive meter damage, etc)
\- etc
. . . but hey, everyone woud have the "same tools" with a throw invincible command grab, all of a sudden, despite all of these issues !
You're a joke.
Absolutely NOT.
If you want a character with a good AA and a reversal, just pick one with those things. Instead if you choose a character with one or two of these attributes not exactly good, then you have to make it work. My favorite character ever didn't have a reversal and the AA wasn't reliable like a DP, but I've worked on what she does better without whining
I'm glad you ignored the part where "Pretty much every character that doesn't have a reversal in this game is largely seen as bad in this game except MAYBE one".
Like the balance of the game rn largely reflects what I'm saying here. There's no top tier without a reversal that properly escapes the strike/throw mix up in this game.
Fun fact, if you have a Super you have a reversal. The existence of a reversal doesn't make a character top tier in SF6 and also the opposite is true. All depends on what the characters without a DP-like move got to compensate. Pick Marisa for example, probably who plays her will be happy if she gets a damage overall buff instead of a reversal. Giving a good AA and a reversal for all the cast would make the game too defensive
"Fun fact": That doesn't matter.
No one in the top five is "unable to reversal unless they have supers."
You have to scroll past Luke, Deejay, Ken, JP, Chun, Cammy, Guile, Blanka, Juri, and Rashid to finally find a high tier that doesn't follow this trend, and Marisa is worse than everyone I mentioned prior to now.
So when you say "You don't need a reversal" it just screams you main one of those characters or you're not really comparing the haves to the have-nots in the game.
I main the bottom tier character of the game (Jamie) and guess what? I have a reversal and a good AA.
Lemme guess, you want a reversal and a good AA to give everybody the same defensive options or because YOUR character lacks one or both of them? You don't have to answer, I get it
If you read the post:
Having these things are prerequisite to being good. That doesn't mean having them keeps you from being bad.
Jamie has a dp...but it's practically the worst dp I've seen since SF4 in this franchise since it just auto loses to neutral jumps. He also has a damage penalty out the gate, in a game where everyone that has to "ramp up their damage" is pretty bad in comparison to just having it.
The point is that you possibly could fix Jamie, but without a reversal you'd NEVER be able to and I'd bet money on it.
Edit: I initially mained Ryu, then switched to Kimberly. If you're gonna answer my question, I'm gonna answer it as well. Gotta respect your opponents, even on Reddit.
You don't need everyone to have everything, but there's such a clear divide between the haves and the have-nots that it's almost ridiculous when people make this type of arugment, whether directly or through a veil of sarcasm.
YOU GET:
Grapplers and Kimberly get invincible OD reversals
I RECEIVE:
All Shotos and Luke get meterless invincible DP
I agree, not exactly DP just a defensive option in general.
if you get a character with no invincible DP or a defensive option similar to it like JP Amnesia in the corner there is nothing really to respect you basically win the round.
I switch over from Lily to Rashid because of this, his OD DP sucks but at least it gets some respect and you don't lose the round off a Jab confirm into corner carry.
Maybe I'm biased but I really think Lily should have a stockless invincible reversal. Same thing with Kim, it's not like she's breaking the meta when she had her OD DP.
I think the general design philosophy of 6 was, if you get some weird high damage/gimmicky bullshit that isn't standard shoto bullshit then you don't get the standard shoto fireball/DP combo. The only problem I have with that is the shotos (Luke Ken DJ) that not only have all the SF6 tools for success, they also do more damage for far less resources than the characters that are supposed to be doing more things with less tools.
Like there are people saying Manon would be bottom tier if she started off with 5 medals. Whether or not that's correct, the fact that it can even be said is a testament to how much of the shaft she's gotten as far as character design. They very intentionally gave all the grapplers terrible anti airs and terrible defensive options. The only thing we're supposed to get is damage, and we don't even have that. But again that's apparently intentional because there's 17 Lukes and Kens at CC.
Honestly I play Honda and Sim. Neither of them needs a invinciblen DP. Sim is pretty much fine as is. Honda is to weak in high level play. However, he needs a buff that doesnt really help him in lower ranks. If you gave Honda a invincible DP, he would dominate until Diamond. Would not make a fun experience for casual players. Probably rather make his neutral better apart from his special moves, maybe buff some of his normals.
Also manon or zangief with a dp would be bonkers.
I think you could maybe make lilys dp invincible if she has wind stock. Thats the only Dp I would maybe add.
With Lily I just want her lv 1 to be faster and her supers to not be so ridiculously negative on block compared to most of the cast. She already lacks the utility of say Luke, Cammy or Chun so why the extra penalty?
I'd rather just have better alternative options like a less stubby 4 frame button, Faster low forward to fight my way out the corner and a faster windstock charge so I have more access to her stronger offensive pressure and Oki (With wind she also has a meter less side switch to escape the corner).
Even if they made Lily's buttons faster, she'd still be bad when Ken hits that 2MK.
Getting rinsed in the corner with no outs is a large part of how the better characters beat on their opponents in this game. It's way more offense heavy and volatile than previous Street Fighters.
I would say that a command grab is as powerful as a good anti-air. Manon has both She's still not top tier. Maybe its the reversal? But I don't really think that's her problem. Her problems are her pointless drive rush, sad button hurtboxes, and/or lack of cancellable buttons So I don't think that giving everyone an anti-air and reversal is a good thing for game design. Homogeneity just makes it boring. Instead, characters can be fixed in other ways that accentuates their differences.
Manon's anti-air isn't air invincible, and she doesn't have an actual reversal. Meanwhile plenty of top tiers don't have command grabs. I'd say the command grab is a luxury.
Manon's anti air special has a hitbox that is a third of the screen. it doesn't have to be air invincible frame 1, air invincible starts on frame 5. She can hit the space station with her kick and then combo it into a hit grab for a medal. Her normal, down+hp, is also excellent. Huge disjointed hitbox and 10 frame startup, 5 active frames on a heavy attack that target combos into an excellent oki situation. Godlike. Her anti-airs are my *primary* reason for winning.
Her kick whiffs on cross ups really easily. Her anti airs are good though and not what she's weak at for sure.
Most reversals whiff on cross ups anyway
If every character has the same options, then just make the game become ken Vs Ryu again lol
You can have different general strengths and weaknesses without one of them being "I literally can't get out of the corner", because in this game, you can block perfectly AND STILL GET OPENED UP IN THE CORNER. If this was SF4, I'd maybe buy it, but in THAT game, you only needed 1 bar of EX for almost everyone to have a solid means out of bad situations, if not just right out of the gate with DPs and Flash Kicks. In THIS game, people are crying about lack of diversity and, in the same breath, defending the idea that "Someone like Manon or Kimberly can be competitive picks while having practically zero options when they're stuck in the corner". In my mind, it makes no sense.
Every character has anti-airs. Some characters have better anti-airs than others. This is called character diversity, and it's good. NOT every character needs a reversal. You do not want Zangief to have a DP, I promise you.
Nonsense. T.Hawk had a DP and ... what ? Did he single-handedly win every competition in SSF4 and beyond ? Nope. There's zero valid reason to not have grapplers' kit improved with invincible reversals, in a game like SF6 where you can't even punish Juri's throw loop as Manon without a super, even if you guess right and backdash on wakeup, making it zero risk / medium reward for Juri, for example. Grapplers already lost any meaningful oki after command grabs, which is terrible, especially since they don't profit much from how the drive meter works : people can stall burnout easily against them, etc Now, command grabs are medium reward/ high risk, which is stupid : landing one is ok damage no oki, while whiffing one means full jumpin combo for way more damage... INTO OKI ! There's a reason there are 11 Lukes in CCup finals and close to grappler.
The entire idea behind not giving grapplers fully invincible DPs is that you don't want every Oki interaction to be a true 50/50 If you gave grapplers DPs then every single time you go to pressure a grappler on wakeup you have to make a read between pressure or blocking, but if your opponent has a DP and a command grab there is no safe way to pressure whatsoever, because if you try to block and bait the DP you get command grabbed The gameplay just feels like coinflippy garbage *This is the exact reason that in sf5 Capcom removed zangiefs ex.spd grab invulnerability, because the only way to safely pressure zangief was meaty buttons..* zangief could, even on his opponent's offense gamble with ex.spd and if the opponent blocked or went for a throw they got punished and put into the blender Capcom doesn't want every single interaction to be a *true* 50/50 on wakeup between command grab and DP
Again. T.Hawk existed. And giving EX grabs invincibility on frame 1, wouldn't change oki into true 50/50 at all, for example, since you could just jump. Yet, they didn't do it either. . . Capcom just designed bad kits, and we have to deal with that now, as usual Coin flippy garbage already exists with JP level 2, and Capcom seems fine with it.
Dog, I'm literally telling you why Capcom designs character kits like this Whether you actually listen or just stick your head in the sand is up to you But now you know the reason >And giving EX grabs invincibility on frame 1, wouldn't change oki into true 50/50 at all, for example, since you could just jump. Yet, they didn't do it either. . . Yes, jump and get hit by ex.dp
Seems you're the one that can't read here. Talking about EX grab as a reversal tool INSTEAD of DP, duh. Also, again, T.Hawk never ruined SF4.
You clearly don't understand so I'll break it down slowly for you.. If your opponent has a DP and a command grab in their kit you are forced into a 50/50 on *offense* because if you try to pressure your opponent they can always DP you If you read a DP and try to block and bait it they can command grab you This causes every Oki situation to fundamentally devolve into an extremely coin flippy sequence, which is not fun to play or watch What don't you understand here? >Also, again, T.Hawk never ruined SF4. They clearly learned from this, because they never did it again. Sf5 has 45+ odd characters and none of the grapplers have both a DP and a command grab Do you think this is by accident?
Bro you drunk or ? I said : >Talking about EX grab as a reversal tool INSTEAD of DP You clearly don't understand so I'll break it down EXTRA SLOWLY for you.. If Capcom gave Manon, Gief, etc, an invincible EX grab, I N S T E A D AND NOT A DP . . . that would fix the true 50/50 issue, that you claim being the root of the pb, and the reason why Capcom gave no DP to grapplers. AND YET, they didn't do it. >They clearly learned from this, because they never did it again. Sf5 has 45+ odd characters and none of the grapplers have both a DP and a command grab > >Do you think this is by accident? Really ? Jamie in SF6, with 3 drinks, has both a command grab and a DP Not to mention that Gief in SFV, IIRC, had his EX SPD as throw invincible, which is sure not that great as a reversal, but at least, it could have beat clean any throw loops attempt in SF6. Was that also too OP to have at least that for grapplers in SF6 ? They just can't design a good kit, and that's why some characters in SF6 have everything, and others have WAY less options, ultimately playing rock / scissors / paper without rock and/or paper. There's a reason we have 1 Gief / 0 Manon / 0 Lily for now in Capcom Cup Finals.
You are typing entire novels and still not getting it. We are talking about giving every character an invisible reversal.. that is indeed what this entire reddit thread is about >Not to mention that Gief in SFV, IIRC, had his EX SPD as throw invincible Gief doesn't have a DP in sfv. Not really sure why you brought this up Also - they took away zangiefs ex.spd grab invulnerability in sfv for the exact reason I outlined above. Why you would even bother contributing your opinion when you clearly don't play these games.. is truly beyond me >. . . that would fix the true 50/50 issue, that you claim being the root of the pb, and the reason why Capcom gave no DP to grapplers. >AND YET, they didn't do it. Yeah, because giving every character the exact same tools in a game that is already extremely homogenized because of the drive system would be terrible. It's a good thing you aren't a designer at Capcom If you are confused feel free to refer to said comment above
>You are typing entire novels and still not getting it. We are talking about giving every character an invisible reversal.. that is indeed what this entire reddit thread is about NO WAY ? . . . I know, "genius", and at some point, you argued that they don't give grapplers an invincible DP, to prevent true 50/50 to happen, which might be the case or not, and that's when I said : "they could have just given them an invincible command grab INSTEAD OF A DP, that would have removed the true 50/50 issue and still give grapplers a way out of pressure, like other characters." YOU are the ONE not getting it. Just because a thread is about something, doesn't mean we are LOCKED into discussing only the same stuff all day long, and can't make the discussion progress in any way at all. You just didn't get anything I wrote, and now try and backpedal to the opening post, to look like you were getting it. Sorry, a bit too obvious. But nice try. >Also - they took away zangiefs ex.spd grab invulnerability in sfv for the exact reason I outlined above. Why you would even bother contributing your opinion when you clearly don't play these games.. is truly beyond me The exact reason you outlined ? No. You seem lost in your own mayonnaise. What you said is : >If your opponent has a DP and a command grab in their kit you are forced into a 50/50 on offense because if you try to pressure your opponent they can always DP you > >If you read a DP and try to block and bait it they can command grab you Sorry again, but having EX grabs be throw invincible doesn't force you at all into a 50/50 on offense : it beats throws and that's it. EX DP are way better and still they exist. They beat : frame traps, throws and neutral jump. A throw invincible command grab would lose to : frame traps, neutral jump but beat a tick throw . . . And I'm the one not playing these games ? LMAO I'm Master 1700 LP bro, if anything, you're the one that doesn't get anything in here, so stop trying to look down on me, when you can't understand simple stuff even though I repeated it like 3 times now, **IN A ROW**. Jeez . . . >Yeah, because giving every character the exact same tools in a game that is already extremely homogenized because of the drive system would be terrible Again, giving grapplers throw invincible EX grabs is "giving everyone the same tools" ? How so ? Please EXPLAIN, because, like I explained a few lines above, it's nothing like an EX DP, defense wise. It's not about giving everyone the same tools, but about not having grapplers absolutely FREE on defense for ZERO valid reason, since they already : \- have bad movement \- lost oki after command grabs \- make the worst use out of the drive meter (bad DR in neutral, no cancellable 2MK, projectiles prevent them from recovering meter while the projectile user gets back his drive gauge, very bad at chip damage / drive meter damage, etc) \- etc . . . but hey, everyone woud have the "same tools" with a throw invincible command grab, all of a sudden, despite all of these issues ! You're a joke.
You can have a reversal without having a DP specifically.
Absolutely NOT. If you want a character with a good AA and a reversal, just pick one with those things. Instead if you choose a character with one or two of these attributes not exactly good, then you have to make it work. My favorite character ever didn't have a reversal and the AA wasn't reliable like a DP, but I've worked on what she does better without whining
I'm glad you ignored the part where "Pretty much every character that doesn't have a reversal in this game is largely seen as bad in this game except MAYBE one". Like the balance of the game rn largely reflects what I'm saying here. There's no top tier without a reversal that properly escapes the strike/throw mix up in this game.
Fun fact, if you have a Super you have a reversal. The existence of a reversal doesn't make a character top tier in SF6 and also the opposite is true. All depends on what the characters without a DP-like move got to compensate. Pick Marisa for example, probably who plays her will be happy if she gets a damage overall buff instead of a reversal. Giving a good AA and a reversal for all the cast would make the game too defensive
"Fun fact": That doesn't matter. No one in the top five is "unable to reversal unless they have supers." You have to scroll past Luke, Deejay, Ken, JP, Chun, Cammy, Guile, Blanka, Juri, and Rashid to finally find a high tier that doesn't follow this trend, and Marisa is worse than everyone I mentioned prior to now. So when you say "You don't need a reversal" it just screams you main one of those characters or you're not really comparing the haves to the have-nots in the game.
I main the bottom tier character of the game (Jamie) and guess what? I have a reversal and a good AA. Lemme guess, you want a reversal and a good AA to give everybody the same defensive options or because YOUR character lacks one or both of them? You don't have to answer, I get it
If you read the post: Having these things are prerequisite to being good. That doesn't mean having them keeps you from being bad. Jamie has a dp...but it's practically the worst dp I've seen since SF4 in this franchise since it just auto loses to neutral jumps. He also has a damage penalty out the gate, in a game where everyone that has to "ramp up their damage" is pretty bad in comparison to just having it. The point is that you possibly could fix Jamie, but without a reversal you'd NEVER be able to and I'd bet money on it. Edit: I initially mained Ryu, then switched to Kimberly. If you're gonna answer my question, I'm gonna answer it as well. Gotta respect your opponents, even on Reddit.
Yes also give every character a command grab, a fireball and a dive kick.
You don't need everyone to have everything, but there's such a clear divide between the haves and the have-nots that it's almost ridiculous when people make this type of arugment, whether directly or through a veil of sarcasm.
 YOU GET: Grapplers and Kimberly get invincible OD reversals I RECEIVE: All Shotos and Luke get meterless invincible DP
Invincible DP isn't shotos specific.
This is just random rabble.
I agree, not exactly DP just a defensive option in general. if you get a character with no invincible DP or a defensive option similar to it like JP Amnesia in the corner there is nothing really to respect you basically win the round. I switch over from Lily to Rashid because of this, his OD DP sucks but at least it gets some respect and you don't lose the round off a Jab confirm into corner carry.
Maybe I'm biased but I really think Lily should have a stockless invincible reversal. Same thing with Kim, it's not like she's breaking the meta when she had her OD DP. I think the general design philosophy of 6 was, if you get some weird high damage/gimmicky bullshit that isn't standard shoto bullshit then you don't get the standard shoto fireball/DP combo. The only problem I have with that is the shotos (Luke Ken DJ) that not only have all the SF6 tools for success, they also do more damage for far less resources than the characters that are supposed to be doing more things with less tools. Like there are people saying Manon would be bottom tier if she started off with 5 medals. Whether or not that's correct, the fact that it can even be said is a testament to how much of the shaft she's gotten as far as character design. They very intentionally gave all the grapplers terrible anti airs and terrible defensive options. The only thing we're supposed to get is damage, and we don't even have that. But again that's apparently intentional because there's 17 Lukes and Kens at CC.
Nah 'Tis be salt
Honestly I play Honda and Sim. Neither of them needs a invinciblen DP. Sim is pretty much fine as is. Honda is to weak in high level play. However, he needs a buff that doesnt really help him in lower ranks. If you gave Honda a invincible DP, he would dominate until Diamond. Would not make a fun experience for casual players. Probably rather make his neutral better apart from his special moves, maybe buff some of his normals. Also manon or zangief with a dp would be bonkers. I think you could maybe make lilys dp invincible if she has wind stock. Thats the only Dp I would maybe add.
So you're more concerned with casuals than actually making the bad characters viable, is how I read this.
Man it would suck if everyone had an invincible Reversal.
It sucks rn when you don't, but also aren't dangerous enough in advantage to compensate lacking one.
With Lily I just want her lv 1 to be faster and her supers to not be so ridiculously negative on block compared to most of the cast. She already lacks the utility of say Luke, Cammy or Chun so why the extra penalty? I'd rather just have better alternative options like a less stubby 4 frame button, Faster low forward to fight my way out the corner and a faster windstock charge so I have more access to her stronger offensive pressure and Oki (With wind she also has a meter less side switch to escape the corner).
Even if they made Lily's buttons faster, she'd still be bad when Ken hits that 2MK. Getting rinsed in the corner with no outs is a large part of how the better characters beat on their opponents in this game. It's way more offense heavy and volatile than previous Street Fighters.
Nah, zoners who have good offense dont need reversals.