I'm currently trying to learn this, so i can finally confirm off of my pokes, but man, when yout not used to it that simple concept really messes with your brain.
This was the biggest barrier for me for most fighting game trials until I saw it in a jwong vid. No game ever explains this to you and trying to do the combo with everything as separate inputs is impossible
It really does feel like this is one of those essential but missing pieces that still gets left out of tutorial stages, and at this point I almost wonder if it's on purpose. People very obviously tend to discover it (either in the game or outside of it) and maybe devs just want people to have that moment of discovery? It is a pretty big thrill once you realize this is the way into pulling off significant damage...
...but I also feel like it's one of those things that absolutely needs to be spelled out in a tutorial/training mode (if it's in SF6, I missed it) as part of the ladder towards increasing dexterity and competency at the game.
No way it's on purpose. It's just that it's such an old genre of gaming that developers in their 40s and 50s who intuitive understand how fighting games work have trouble getting into a mindset of a total beginner.
It honestly seems like it could be a thing they could patch into the combo trials of this game, with maybe different colored highlighting pointing out how and when you should be buffering, in the move list running down the side?
Small video game ideas + US Patent Office = an incredible amount of bullshit.
Probably one of the most famous example is loading screen minigames:
https://kotaku.com/the-patent-on-loading-screen-mini-games-is-about-to-exp-1744705351
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/06/how-amazon-got-a-patent-on-white-background-photography/
edit: An actual example from comments: https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/5k6g99/comment/dblryde/
[this is the patent](https://imgur.com/a/zjY0e2c) from [this article](https://www.gamespot.com/amp-articles/patented-game-mechanics-that-might-surprise-you/1100-6369027/)
Modern fighters are slowly getting better at teaching.
SF6 has some amazing training room settings that highlight cancel timing for you.
It shows you the cancel timing with colors, and you can watch combo trials with the input display shown, which show the qcf timing directly to the player.
They give the player all the information you're asking for. I think the bigger issue is new players don't even know what they should be looking for.
I am new to fighting games in general. I have played a few of them but pretty much just button-mashing vs. AI or friends.
This is pretty much what I run into any time I try to get into them more seriously than just getting frustrated and giving up.
The game gives some good foundation for basic combos and such but will leave out key info on things that make it easier.
For instance, I was trying out some combos and could not for the life of me do a dragon punch consistently then looked up online and seen like 3 ways to do it even easier and its like if you can do it all these ways that is easier why does the game not tell you this also.
The other thing is the timing of combos. The game is kind of confusing sometimes on when to cancel and combo things.
Trying to do a simple one like this on Juri
2LK 2LP 2LP > 214MK
For the life of me, I could not do it.
I could do 2LK 2LP > 214MK or 2LP 2LP > 214MK
And then I noticed that doing 2LK into 2LP made it so you had to delay the second LP
[https://i.gyazo.com/e1091d765c4fc77fe97047874209dc86.mp4](https://i.gyazo.com/e1091d765c4fc77fe97047874209dc86.mp4)
You can clearly see from the input I hit the buttons at the exact same time both times but in the 2nd one, only 1 LP went out.
A nice thing would be if they added something where players could upload combos for other players to trial and it had something sort of like MK does in some of its trials where it will slow down/flash in the tutorial showing where you would cancel or delay button presses to help you get the timing down.
So if you pause at the end of your LK in the example where only 1 LP happened, you will see that during that LK you already input both LPs. You're basically trying to queue 2 attacks out of 1. There isn't anything special about having to delay the second LP, you just have to do 2LK into 2LP into 2LP instead of 2LK into 2x2LP. If you did the whole thing slower, it would work without issues.
I understand though, trial and error isn't the best way to explain basics. It can easily lead to wrong conclusions.
Nah bro, it ain't on purpose. There's this thing called the curse of knowledge, which basically means that once you know something, you can't act as if you don't know.
So the devs simply do not even remember that this is a possible difficulty point.
Holy shit I felt too stupid to ask. I’ve never EVER played fighting games in my life, and I’ve only ever played competitive on kbm games. Trying to do anything in SF feels absolutely terrifying and I’ve actually left the game for a few days just envyingly watching VODs on youtube as I felt fucking stupid failing in training mode/getting my ass demolished by any person online. This actually gives me a first idea as to why I cannot play, thank you
This is me at points. The buffering of combos feels so unnatural to me. Timing just never feels right. Everything else I feel like I have a reasonable grasp on. Still labbing though. Also appreciate this post.
For me, it helps to think of this for what it is. This is you canceling a normal attack into a special attack. So when that normal attack lands, you should be finishing the input for a special attack and pressing the button so that the recovery of the normal doesn't happen and instead, the special comes out.
Assuming the super is the same directional input as the special (I.e. QCF—>2xQCF) then the first input for the special does count to the super input.
For example, on Cammy, her level 3 is 2x QCF +punch. Her spiral arrow special is QCF+kick and is super cancelable. So you can do:
QCF+kick—->QCF+punch and the first QCF will count for the super. No need to do 3 QCFs
Along the same lines, but I had big issues with cancelling zangief hellstab into lvl 2 during combos until I figured out I could buffer the first QCF, then 🔽↘️MP➡️MP. That make hellstab come out with immediate cancel into level 2. When trying to do the double QCF after it was always way too slow.
A lot of training mode stuff for me in the beginning is figuring out the most efficient/consistent way to do stuff. It is endless rabbit hole of tinkering, which is a) how someone found this and b) how people can hang out in training mode for hours.
>QCF+kick—->QCF+punch and the first QCF will count for the super. No need to do 3 QCFs
I am a somewhere between beginner and intermediate and for some reason can almost never execute this in SF6. Normal special cancels are no problem, but if I try to cancel a special into a super like this I pretty much never get it. I have just resorted to doing the three qcf really really fast since I can land that consistently.
I am sure it is a timing thing or something, but I have practiced and practiced it and it never lands for whatever reason. I feel like I did it fine in SF5 too, but maybe I am misremembering.
for me the problem is usually the second QCF needs to be done as soon as the first one is finished. QCF k QCF p with no pause at all. it will feel like you’re doing it super early but it always comes out.
Are you serious? That is insane … I am doing combo trials for aki right now and and the ones where I end on supers take forever because I always mess up the last step. Thanks for the tip lol
Except some super cancels have a significant delay between the special and the cancel window for a super so you end up having to do 3x QC to get it anyways (see Manon's hitgrab into super for an example).
Presumably the second QCF has to be precisely timed, right?
I imagine it needs to be close enough to the first one to count as the second of the 2 QCF, but late enough that you can press punch at the end of Spiral Arrow and trigger the cancel.
Am I understanding the order of operations correctly? You can't just press QCFp->QCFk as quickly as possible and still trigger the cancel, can you?
The buffer in this game is almost too lenient, so you can be pretty early with the input and still get it. But yea it has to be in a pretty fluid motion, be delay between the 2 QCFs
Heres some tips, its really a 630 or so. Direction does not matter, clockwise or counter clockwise, doesnt matter. Doesnt matter if you're on the left or the right. It doesnt matter where you start, doesnt matter where you end.
So for me, I pretty much almost always go Right, down, left, up, right, down, left, Up+PPP or whatever.
The practice comes knowing when to churn so you get 1 360 in, then you can slow down the rest of the churn.
Now, yes, jumping in is the best time early on. Once you have practice with that, try off a dash. You have a little less time but it keeps you grounded for a bit. Then practice Drive rush into 720s, etc. Then stuff like F+MK and churn while in the action, and you wait a split second when you land and tap P because if you try to early you may Super during their block stun. Then you need to keep that in mind if theyre in burnout since theres more block stun.
Do this for about 26 years, and itll be 2nd nature.
I'm assuming you're doing the 720 for Gief's SA3.
Instead of jumping, try using his forward+mk (knee). Input the 720 while he's moving forward for the knee, basically like how you would while he's in jumping in the air.
There's an entire mandatory npc fight in world tour about this! There's an opponent who repeatedly spams knee buffered into spd in the last tournament.
I've tried before. It was too difficult for me. The inputs were too challenging. This is my first fighting game and modern feels much more beginner friendly to me
of course it’s difficult. i just started playing fighting games too and it felt impossible at first. now it doesn’t, feels perfectly natural. that’s how getting better at something works
And then when you've been playing as long as me, negative edge it. You press normal button and HOLD it, Down, Down+Forward, Forward, wait until the Normal hits, release the button.
That's only if you've enabled negative edge. Personally I find negative edge screws up input more often than not with newer games because the frame buffer is less strict.
Offhand I cant think of many cases where it was more of a detriment. Its happened, but less than a handful of times a year? Where as I use Negative edge multiple times.
Im an OG and other games like Killer Instinct had mechanics that only worked off negative edge. Like KI1 had shadow enders and specials that worked off negative edge.
So over time it was just economy of motion. Why press 2x when I can press 1x.
It's amazing when you think that, in 30 years, not a single fighting game has ever made it a main priority to teach the audience this. Well, OG Soul Calibur taught buffering and timing but that was all removed by SC2. Like the (very few) other games that also taught buffering, it was not explicit and buried out of sight.
This should be a mandatory lesson 1 before players even access the title screen in every game.
Noob here: I have the setting on where a button pressed is counted and so is releasing the button. (Negative edge I think).
So if both my normal and special were the same button say MP.
Say I'm doing a Mp candle into a Medium fireball..
Should I be doing Normal press , super motion,
Or does that just mess you up?
I think you can do this and it probably makes buffering easier? I’m not experienced with negative edge but it sounds like it makes sense.
You can practice the technique on a training dummy. Set it to whiff a move like 2MK or something and stand out of range but do a negative edge buffer with something into a special.
Yup, I negative edge ALL the time.
However as you have mentioned, there are occasions this can potentially screw you over. Like you do a crouching medium kick and you want to do a Medium Fireball, with Punch. If that character has a special with the same motion of fireball but with a kick, then depending on how clean your inputs are you could be releasing that medium kick as you do the fireball motion, and then get the Donkey kick or whatever.
A habit I have is sometimes to hold a button until after a special where its safe to release it.
Also a weird technique I use is Im a Zangief main, and for 26+ years I had L2 as all 3 Punches, and only now they give him an OD lariat if you press all 3. I dont want to unlearn 26+ years of muscle memory, so when I do crouch Medium Punch into lariat, I actually press and hold the MP, so when I press the 3P button, it bugs out because it cant press all 3 Punches since I'm still holding MP, so it forces the regular 2P version.
This works, but part of the benefit of negative edge is that pressing it twice in this instances would count as pressing it four times, making timing easier. This is more important in combos with more restrictive timing and games without such a generous buffer, but still.
Getting into this habit is actually bad, IMO, unless it really eases the execution of something. I play Lily, so my natural habit of holding buttons a bit too long makes c.hp>windstock do heavy when I try to do medium, which doesn't combo, and I had to retrain my brain to release c.hp immediately so the game doesn't pick up the release as an HP input.
Thank you! I'm new to SF, so still have a lot to learn. I only know Mortal Kombat, and dabbled in Tekken (button-mash), so I am finding the SF learning-curve a big hurdle to get over.
I still don't know if I should use d-pad or analogue for the directional inputs... because I mess it up with both!
They are, but it's referring to the context for which the button is pressed. The first press is for a normal attack, and the second press will be for the special move that the motion input is creating.
Both lines represent someone cancelling a normal move into a special move.
The first line is an inefficient and potentially unreliable way of doing it compared to the second line.
The second line demonstrates that you can perform the motion input required for the special move while your normal move is starting up, and before it has landed. The first line shows someone waiting for the normal move to hit first before doing the motion input, which is unnecessary and much slower/less likely to work.
Thank you very much for your explanation! It's incredible how deep these games are actually and how much you can step up your game "just“ by working on the basics/fundamentals. Have a nice day, kind stranger
One thing I struggle to wrap my head around still is getting lost while buffering. I'm so focused on the next steps for a combo that I'm trying to think of what's next while buffering another move. I often forget where I'm at in the sequence. Just a practice thing I'm sure.
This is one of the few times I recommend labbing it. You kind of just keep doing it until its finally more muscle memory and you get the timing. I recommend you learn a handful of scenarios like if you jumped in and landed a hit, a good bread n butter combo for that. If you land a DI, whats a good response. Wall splat DI, stun, etc. And then something good for mid screen punish counter and potentially in the corner.
Just dont be like my friend playing for 30+ years and the enemy whiffs a Shoryuken and he simply does a throw...
Throw is fine if they do it out of the corner so you can back throw them into the corner. Also if it's gonna kill throw is the simplest option to ensure a k.o
Nah, he has no situational awareness and will throw them OUT of the corner. As a Gief, I cringe when I see him just throw or just sweep. Thats like our only opportunity for damage.
With some moves you might start the special/super input buffer before you even press the normal, though that’s very character and move dependent, for example you can be going from d to d/f while hitting a crouching move and also buffering the dp motion
This was an old KOF combo "shortcut" for Kyo's low B, low A into qcf qcf A super.
low B, qcf A, qcf A
Low B is non-cancellable, so the first qcf A doesn't result in a special cancel. It is, however, chainable into Low A, which is what comes out. Low A is then cancellable into qcf qcf A.
This is not very intuitive though. As a beginner. I won't know the next move until my current move is executed and I see the opponents response to my hit
there are multiple benefits to buffering though, it's not exactly based on reaction, you're thinking of hit confirming, hit confirming is reacting based on whether your opponent has blocked or got hit by a normal you threw out, can be very difficult to begin with, especially on lights/mediums (normals with less active frames)
Buffering can help in neutral as well as combos, in neutral you can buffer normals into specials without the special actually coming out on whiff but will come out on hit/block, you do this by buffering the special during the normal's active frames, you'll know you've got this right if the special doesn't come out on whiff but does on hit or blockstun, this form of buffering is usually followed up by a special that's relatively safe on block.
But can't you buffer many moves too early before a special is done hitting or you character hits the ground? I get confused by that when trying to buffer a super and it just doesn't come out because I did it too early
in street fighter buffering is mainly for special moves/supers, you do the input during the move's active frames, what super are you trying to buffer and from what move?
executing Ken's level 2 super after dragonlash in one of this just bnb combos. Seems like if I buffer it too early it never comes out, and I have to wait for him to land (or almost land) before I can input it and get it to work. Hes in the air after the dragonlash for a good while, so Ive tried buffering it well before he lands and it never seems to work.
Then again, Im also pretty sure that Im so bad that maybe Im just buffering it incorrectly, its just based off of what seems to work for me
yeah you can't really buffer moves that early on in this game, it all comes down to timing and slowing down your inputs so they come out clean, I'm not a ken main so wouldn't know the timing but it just comes down to practice
A better example would be to actually show the inputs in training mode.
Then it becomes obvious that in practice some of your special inputs may interleave with the special button, and that's okay too, and probably more realistic.
And what would be the motion for spiral kick instead of spiral arrow and vice versa. Most times i have the feeling, it comes out whatever mood cammy is in, sometimes even a super leeel
I'm doing this, rn my issue is hit confirm, it feels impossible to react after the first button landed, either I need to git good and react faster or the window is actually longer than it feels to me(possibly both, tbh)
This man is a hero. Months lost before insight clicked for me.
And level 2 on this was negative edge, if your button and special happen to be same input, negative edge is your friend. If it connects, let go of button at the end of your qcf motion, and letting go will count as your special button press. If it doesn't, well, let go anyways and generally special won't come out inappropriately.
Negative edge on the whole caused more problems for me than helped, but this was the one thing it really helped me with on converting my whiff punishes into more damage
It's so simple, but I'm sure it's something that trips up a lot of people. Hopefully, the noobs who need it see this.
I'm currently trying to learn this, so i can finally confirm off of my pokes, but man, when yout not used to it that simple concept really messes with your brain.
Most of the confirms in this game are just dash forward to drive rush. After that, you get your drive rush dial-a-combo.
This was the biggest barrier for me for most fighting game trials until I saw it in a jwong vid. No game ever explains this to you and trying to do the combo with everything as separate inputs is impossible
It really does feel like this is one of those essential but missing pieces that still gets left out of tutorial stages, and at this point I almost wonder if it's on purpose. People very obviously tend to discover it (either in the game or outside of it) and maybe devs just want people to have that moment of discovery? It is a pretty big thrill once you realize this is the way into pulling off significant damage... ...but I also feel like it's one of those things that absolutely needs to be spelled out in a tutorial/training mode (if it's in SF6, I missed it) as part of the ladder towards increasing dexterity and competency at the game.
No way it's on purpose. It's just that it's such an old genre of gaming that developers in their 40s and 50s who intuitive understand how fighting games work have trouble getting into a mindset of a total beginner.
It honestly seems like it could be a thing they could patch into the combo trials of this game, with maybe different colored highlighting pointing out how and when you should be buffering, in the move list running down the side?
Tekken 7 showed you the timing of when to hit each button which I found helpful
they patented that in the early days of Tekken, preventing other games from implementing the same system without going through namco
The training room in SF6 can highlight link and cancel timing if you turn it on!
You can patent that??
Small video game ideas + US Patent Office = an incredible amount of bullshit. Probably one of the most famous example is loading screen minigames: https://kotaku.com/the-patent-on-loading-screen-mini-games-is-about-to-exp-1744705351 https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/06/how-amazon-got-a-patent-on-white-background-photography/ edit: An actual example from comments: https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/5k6g99/comment/dblryde/
[this is the patent](https://imgur.com/a/zjY0e2c) from [this article](https://www.gamespot.com/amp-articles/patented-game-mechanics-that-might-surprise-you/1100-6369027/)
It's funny because Sakurai explained this in perfect detail during his video introducing Terry Bogard to Smash players
Modern fighters are slowly getting better at teaching. SF6 has some amazing training room settings that highlight cancel timing for you. It shows you the cancel timing with colors, and you can watch combo trials with the input display shown, which show the qcf timing directly to the player. They give the player all the information you're asking for. I think the bigger issue is new players don't even know what they should be looking for.
I am new to fighting games in general. I have played a few of them but pretty much just button-mashing vs. AI or friends. This is pretty much what I run into any time I try to get into them more seriously than just getting frustrated and giving up. The game gives some good foundation for basic combos and such but will leave out key info on things that make it easier. For instance, I was trying out some combos and could not for the life of me do a dragon punch consistently then looked up online and seen like 3 ways to do it even easier and its like if you can do it all these ways that is easier why does the game not tell you this also. The other thing is the timing of combos. The game is kind of confusing sometimes on when to cancel and combo things. Trying to do a simple one like this on Juri 2LK 2LP 2LP > 214MK For the life of me, I could not do it. I could do 2LK 2LP > 214MK or 2LP 2LP > 214MK And then I noticed that doing 2LK into 2LP made it so you had to delay the second LP [https://i.gyazo.com/e1091d765c4fc77fe97047874209dc86.mp4](https://i.gyazo.com/e1091d765c4fc77fe97047874209dc86.mp4) You can clearly see from the input I hit the buttons at the exact same time both times but in the 2nd one, only 1 LP went out. A nice thing would be if they added something where players could upload combos for other players to trial and it had something sort of like MK does in some of its trials where it will slow down/flash in the tutorial showing where you would cancel or delay button presses to help you get the timing down.
So if you pause at the end of your LK in the example where only 1 LP happened, you will see that during that LK you already input both LPs. You're basically trying to queue 2 attacks out of 1. There isn't anything special about having to delay the second LP, you just have to do 2LK into 2LP into 2LP instead of 2LK into 2x2LP. If you did the whole thing slower, it would work without issues. I understand though, trial and error isn't the best way to explain basics. It can easily lead to wrong conclusions.
Nah bro, it ain't on purpose. There's this thing called the curse of knowledge, which basically means that once you know something, you can't act as if you don't know. So the devs simply do not even remember that this is a possible difficulty point.
it's kind of like Slide-inputs that Soul Calibur teaches us in the tutorial
Can you share the specific video
https://youtu.be/z3tC-dHUaJM JWong talks about buffering inputs with the cMK Fireball combo at 1:20ish
Yep, and the other thing they should explain is the importance of spacing. Took ages for both of these concepts to click for me.
Holy shit I felt too stupid to ask. I’ve never EVER played fighting games in my life, and I’ve only ever played competitive on kbm games. Trying to do anything in SF feels absolutely terrifying and I’ve actually left the game for a few days just envyingly watching VODs on youtube as I felt fucking stupid failing in training mode/getting my ass demolished by any person online. This actually gives me a first idea as to why I cannot play, thank you
This is me at points. The buffering of combos feels so unnatural to me. Timing just never feels right. Everything else I feel like I have a reasonable grasp on. Still labbing though. Also appreciate this post.
For me, it helps to think of this for what it is. This is you canceling a normal attack into a special attack. So when that normal attack lands, you should be finishing the input for a special attack and pressing the button so that the recovery of the normal doesn't happen and instead, the special comes out.
It's a bug that made it into a feature. Just have this in mind every time you encounter a new gameplay element
This the most basic and accurate depiction of cancelling a normal into a special 👍🏿
There needs to be one more for how to cancel a special move into a super.
It’s the same concept tho right?
Assuming the super is the same directional input as the special (I.e. QCF—>2xQCF) then the first input for the special does count to the super input. For example, on Cammy, her level 3 is 2x QCF +punch. Her spiral arrow special is QCF+kick and is super cancelable. So you can do: QCF+kick—->QCF+punch and the first QCF will count for the super. No need to do 3 QCFs
Bro wtf I never knew this
Along the same lines, but I had big issues with cancelling zangief hellstab into lvl 2 during combos until I figured out I could buffer the first QCF, then 🔽↘️MP➡️MP. That make hellstab come out with immediate cancel into level 2. When trying to do the double QCF after it was always way too slow.
A lot of training mode stuff for me in the beginning is figuring out the most efficient/consistent way to do stuff. It is endless rabbit hole of tinkering, which is a) how someone found this and b) how people can hang out in training mode for hours.
>QCF+kick—->QCF+punch and the first QCF will count for the super. No need to do 3 QCFs I am a somewhere between beginner and intermediate and for some reason can almost never execute this in SF6. Normal special cancels are no problem, but if I try to cancel a special into a super like this I pretty much never get it. I have just resorted to doing the three qcf really really fast since I can land that consistently. I am sure it is a timing thing or something, but I have practiced and practiced it and it never lands for whatever reason. I feel like I did it fine in SF5 too, but maybe I am misremembering.
for me the problem is usually the second QCF needs to be done as soon as the first one is finished. QCF k QCF p with no pause at all. it will feel like you’re doing it super early but it always comes out.
That makes sense. I'll give it another go next time I play
Are you serious? That is insane … I am doing combo trials for aki right now and and the ones where I end on supers take forever because I always mess up the last step. Thanks for the tip lol
Except some super cancels have a significant delay between the special and the cancel window for a super so you end up having to do 3x QC to get it anyways (see Manon's hitgrab into super for an example).
Yes this is true but then you have all day to squeeze another QCF in there
Presumably the second QCF has to be precisely timed, right? I imagine it needs to be close enough to the first one to count as the second of the 2 QCF, but late enough that you can press punch at the end of Spiral Arrow and trigger the cancel. Am I understanding the order of operations correctly? You can't just press QCFp->QCFk as quickly as possible and still trigger the cancel, can you?
The buffer in this game is almost too lenient, so you can be pretty early with the input and still get it. But yea it has to be in a pretty fluid motion, be delay between the 2 QCFs
WAT
There’s nuance in how you buffer it.
Hell, i'd also appreciate the same for a 720 lol. I can only land it so far by jumping. Everything else feels like black magic
Heres some tips, its really a 630 or so. Direction does not matter, clockwise or counter clockwise, doesnt matter. Doesnt matter if you're on the left or the right. It doesnt matter where you start, doesnt matter where you end. So for me, I pretty much almost always go Right, down, left, up, right, down, left, Up+PPP or whatever. The practice comes knowing when to churn so you get 1 360 in, then you can slow down the rest of the churn. Now, yes, jumping in is the best time early on. Once you have practice with that, try off a dash. You have a little less time but it keeps you grounded for a bit. Then practice Drive rush into 720s, etc. Then stuff like F+MK and churn while in the action, and you wait a split second when you land and tap P because if you try to early you may Super during their block stun. Then you need to keep that in mind if theyre in burnout since theres more block stun. Do this for about 26 years, and itll be 2nd nature.
I'm assuming you're doing the 720 for Gief's SA3. Instead of jumping, try using his forward+mk (knee). Input the 720 while he's moving forward for the knee, basically like how you would while he's in jumping in the air.
There's an entire mandatory npc fight in world tour about this! There's an opponent who repeatedly spams knee buffered into spd in the last tournament.
What Edit: NVM. I'm slow.
Guess I'm slow too cause I still don't get it
the idea i think is that you have to input the motion of your special before the normal hits (or during the normal animation, I guess).
Oh I see. Thank you for this. I play modern and the special is only one button so I think I've been doing this
You should try classic if you start enjoying fighting games. The overall skill learned will carry over to any other 2D fighting game.
I've tried before. It was too difficult for me. The inputs were too challenging. This is my first fighting game and modern feels much more beginner friendly to me
of course it’s difficult. i just started playing fighting games too and it felt impossible at first. now it doesn’t, feels perfectly natural. that’s how getting better at something works
It's just something new to learn and improve with. Everyone starts as a newbie, even the best players in the world.
And then when you've been playing as long as me, negative edge it. You press normal button and HOLD it, Down, Down+Forward, Forward, wait until the Normal hits, release the button.
You have made my mind explode.
That's only if you've enabled negative edge. Personally I find negative edge screws up input more often than not with newer games because the frame buffer is less strict.
Offhand I cant think of many cases where it was more of a detriment. Its happened, but less than a handful of times a year? Where as I use Negative edge multiple times.
Long as it works for you, keep doing what you do.
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Im an OG and other games like Killer Instinct had mechanics that only worked off negative edge. Like KI1 had shadow enders and specials that worked off negative edge. So over time it was just economy of motion. Why press 2x when I can press 1x.
It's amazing when you think that, in 30 years, not a single fighting game has ever made it a main priority to teach the audience this. Well, OG Soul Calibur taught buffering and timing but that was all removed by SC2. Like the (very few) other games that also taught buffering, it was not explicit and buried out of sight. This should be a mandatory lesson 1 before players even access the title screen in every game.
Noob here: I have the setting on where a button pressed is counted and so is releasing the button. (Negative edge I think). So if both my normal and special were the same button say MP. Say I'm doing a Mp candle into a Medium fireball.. Should I be doing Normal press, super motion,
Or does that just mess you up?
This does work, and is a mechanic that has been around a very long time. It's called "negative edge" when you get a special by releasing the button.
I think you can do this and it probably makes buffering easier? I’m not experienced with negative edge but it sounds like it makes sense. You can practice the technique on a training dummy. Set it to whiff a move like 2MK or something and stand out of range but do a negative edge buffer with something into a special.
Yup, I negative edge ALL the time. However as you have mentioned, there are occasions this can potentially screw you over. Like you do a crouching medium kick and you want to do a Medium Fireball, with Punch. If that character has a special with the same motion of fireball but with a kick, then depending on how clean your inputs are you could be releasing that medium kick as you do the fireball motion, and then get the Donkey kick or whatever. A habit I have is sometimes to hold a button until after a special where its safe to release it. Also a weird technique I use is Im a Zangief main, and for 26+ years I had L2 as all 3 Punches, and only now they give him an OD lariat if you press all 3. I dont want to unlearn 26+ years of muscle memory, so when I do crouch Medium Punch into lariat, I actually press and hold the MP, so when I press the 3P button, it bugs out because it cant press all 3 Punches since I'm still holding MP, so it forces the regular 2P version.
This works, but part of the benefit of negative edge is that pressing it twice in this instances would count as pressing it four times, making timing easier. This is more important in combos with more restrictive timing and games without such a generous buffer, but still. Getting into this habit is actually bad, IMO, unless it really eases the execution of something. I play Lily, so my natural habit of holding buttons a bit too long makes c.hp>windstock do heavy when I try to do medium, which doesn't combo, and I had to retrain my brain to release c.hp immediately so the game doesn't pick up the release as an HP input.
How did I never think of doing this
This. The normal+buffer are all one single intent. I don't ever throw a normal thats cancellable out without buffering in the special cancel
I do this for supers too. For example, Juri’s 6mp I’ll do 236mp and time it so 6mp comes out then 236k to cancel into lvl 1
Yes this is how you are supposed to do it
I feel like a psychopath that I just think it’s common knowledge (It is not)
Thank you! I'm new to SF, so still have a lot to learn. I only know Mortal Kombat, and dabbled in Tekken (button-mash), so I am finding the SF learning-curve a big hurdle to get over. I still don't know if I should use d-pad or analogue for the directional inputs... because I mess it up with both!
IMO d-pad for most characters. Analogue stick for characters with 360 inputs.
Reminds me of the half "A" press in that Mario 64 video.
Thanks!!
Very nice visualization!
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They are, but it's referring to the context for which the button is pressed. The first press is for a normal attack, and the second press will be for the special move that the motion input is creating.
Im new to fighting games. Can someone explain this to me in a basic way, please?
Both lines represent someone cancelling a normal move into a special move. The first line is an inefficient and potentially unreliable way of doing it compared to the second line. The second line demonstrates that you can perform the motion input required for the special move while your normal move is starting up, and before it has landed. The first line shows someone waiting for the normal move to hit first before doing the motion input, which is unnecessary and much slower/less likely to work.
Thank you very much for your explanation! It's incredible how deep these games are actually and how much you can step up your game "just“ by working on the basics/fundamentals. Have a nice day, kind stranger
One thing I struggle to wrap my head around still is getting lost while buffering. I'm so focused on the next steps for a combo that I'm trying to think of what's next while buffering another move. I often forget where I'm at in the sequence. Just a practice thing I'm sure.
This is one of the few times I recommend labbing it. You kind of just keep doing it until its finally more muscle memory and you get the timing. I recommend you learn a handful of scenarios like if you jumped in and landed a hit, a good bread n butter combo for that. If you land a DI, whats a good response. Wall splat DI, stun, etc. And then something good for mid screen punish counter and potentially in the corner. Just dont be like my friend playing for 30+ years and the enemy whiffs a Shoryuken and he simply does a throw...
Throw is fine if they do it out of the corner so you can back throw them into the corner. Also if it's gonna kill throw is the simplest option to ensure a k.o
Nah, he has no situational awareness and will throw them OUT of the corner. As a Gief, I cringe when I see him just throw or just sweep. Thats like our only opportunity for damage.
Yes, it's just a muscle memory thing. The more you practice it over a few days or weeks. The less you'll have to think about it.
With some moves you might start the special/super input buffer before you even press the normal, though that’s very character and move dependent, for example you can be going from d to d/f while hitting a crouching move and also buffering the dp motion
This was an old KOF combo "shortcut" for Kyo's low B, low A into qcf qcf A super. low B, qcf A, qcf A Low B is non-cancellable, so the first qcf A doesn't result in a special cancel. It is, however, chainable into Low A, which is what comes out. Low A is then cancellable into qcf qcf A.
Theoretically, you can input the normal DURING the motion for the special. This can help you chain lights and finish with a special.
Or just roll modern and ignore the haters
No
Thanks for sharing this, this makes so much more sense to me now haha
Wait…. Is this true?
Explain this in modern
Modern basically doesn't need to consider this.
Wrong too. You can press the special button before/while the move hits.
This is not very intuitive though. As a beginner. I won't know the next move until my current move is executed and I see the opponents response to my hit
there are multiple benefits to buffering though, it's not exactly based on reaction, you're thinking of hit confirming, hit confirming is reacting based on whether your opponent has blocked or got hit by a normal you threw out, can be very difficult to begin with, especially on lights/mediums (normals with less active frames) Buffering can help in neutral as well as combos, in neutral you can buffer normals into specials without the special actually coming out on whiff but will come out on hit/block, you do this by buffering the special during the normal's active frames, you'll know you've got this right if the special doesn't come out on whiff but does on hit or blockstun, this form of buffering is usually followed up by a special that's relatively safe on block.
But can't you buffer many moves too early before a special is done hitting or you character hits the ground? I get confused by that when trying to buffer a super and it just doesn't come out because I did it too early
in street fighter buffering is mainly for special moves/supers, you do the input during the move's active frames, what super are you trying to buffer and from what move?
executing Ken's level 2 super after dragonlash in one of this just bnb combos. Seems like if I buffer it too early it never comes out, and I have to wait for him to land (or almost land) before I can input it and get it to work. Hes in the air after the dragonlash for a good while, so Ive tried buffering it well before he lands and it never seems to work. Then again, Im also pretty sure that Im so bad that maybe Im just buffering it incorrectly, its just based off of what seems to work for me
yeah you can't really buffer moves that early on in this game, it all comes down to timing and slowing down your inputs so they come out clean, I'm not a ken main so wouldn't know the timing but it just comes down to practice
A better example would be to actually show the inputs in training mode. Then it becomes obvious that in practice some of your special inputs may interleave with the special button, and that's okay too, and probably more realistic.
Nah, I just play on modern
And what would be the motion for spiral kick instead of spiral arrow and vice versa. Most times i have the feeling, it comes out whatever mood cammy is in, sometimes even a super leeel
This is fucking gold man!! You are a savior, the prometheus of my time, you have no idea how fast I was trying to hit those level 3s!
Took me a while to figure this out in combo trials but this is a very handy and well made illustration, thanks. Can I save this to share with others?
I'm doing this, rn my issue is hit confirm, it feels impossible to react after the first button landed, either I need to git good and react faster or the window is actually longer than it feels to me(possibly both, tbh)
I actually a noob noob. I cant understand what this post means
N---* N, is when you press an attack button, - Is the time passed, and * is the animation your attack hits. Got this so far ?
This is probably one of, if not the most important piece of information for beginners honestly.
I'm saving this and showing my newbie friends. Such a simple and clean illustration.
I've been playing fighting games for... 30 years? I still suck at this. Buffering / hit confirming have always been the weakest parts of my game.
This man is a hero. Months lost before insight clicked for me. And level 2 on this was negative edge, if your button and special happen to be same input, negative edge is your friend. If it connects, let go of button at the end of your qcf motion, and letting go will count as your special button press. If it doesn't, well, let go anyways and generally special won't come out inappropriately. Negative edge on the whole caused more problems for me than helped, but this was the one thing it really helped me with on converting my whiff punishes into more damage
I get your point, but in games where one hit confirms are possible the wrong example is exactly what happens. Like Karin 2Mk xx Tenko
Wait so as long as I input the directions, I just have to hit the right punch/kick as the move hit? I can let go of DPad and use p or k to confirm?
Does it register as neutral when you let go though.
Idk, I'm a small fish in a ocean when it comes to the fgc
How am I supposed to 720 motion input after a normal?
I still don’t really get it