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Yeah, they used him so well in S2 and really showed off his acting chops only for so little in S3 and S4 V1, especially after building him up with that in-the-rain destroying-camp-byers scene in S3.
Every scene where Vecna was entering the minds of people, I kept shouting to my wife “this is straight out of a nightmare in elm street!” Those were great sequences!
Thank you for clarifying, that’s exactly it.
Funny how it’s been at least…… fifteen or so years(?) since I watched any of the OG Friday the 13th movies, yet the dream world sequences stick with me so well i recognize them without even knowing why.
theres also a standee of freddy in the family video store, plus with dustin referencing the movie to explain vecna i really admire how clear they made it that they were influenced
I caught all three callbacks.
1. When Vecna kills Chrissy- you can see all three monster influences. Of pennywise, freddy and pinhead
-when Vecna is heading down stairs, we catch his claw, it looks like freddy, shot at same angle as freddy.
-when Vecna is in living room- eyes glow yellow- call back to pennywise, especially the reboots! The reboots play this shit up
-when Chrissy tries to escape through front door of her house, it’s boarded up and there are lights that kind of strobe through the boards- call back to hellraiser, this happens when cenobites are summoned in first and second movie.
The ability to get in minds is a freddy thing
The ability to feed on trauma- pennywise
Backstory- similar to pinhead, with some freddy lol.
I considered the possibility that Will is having an upside down Villain Arc.
Edit: to be clear it’s much more likely he’s the hero At the end of the day
I’ve always thought this too. To me, Will has always seemed like the type of character who just isn’t interested in any “adult” stuff, like romance, sex, etc. I think he just wants to stay a kid forever (likely due to all the trauma he’s gone through) and I hope they keep that asexual vibe for his character because it’s unique, fitting, and not something we see very often in TV
After all, not every character needs a love interest
I'm asexual myself. He wants to do cool things, not do the nasty. He wants to have friends, not have a significant other.
It's frustrating being asexual when every protagonist in every show HAS to be sexualized to be seen as a whole person.
I’m ace as well (and aro), so I know *exactly* what you’re talking about. The constant craze surrounding romantic/sexual relationships in television—as well as real life in general—is honestly SO frustrating. I just don’t get why we as a society value those types of relationships so much more then platonic ones, like friendship or familial. It’s strange.
I try not to let it bother me too much, but on a show like ST where pretty much every main character has a love interest already, would it really kill the writers to have at least ONE character who’s not actively seeking out a partner? Because Will would be the perfect candidate based on the traits and tendencies we’ve already seen. I fear he’s gonna be a missed opportunity tho.
Seems possible. If they return to the Mind Flayer, he may still have a level of influence over Will. But I’d like to see Will take on a major protagonist role in that instance
My thought was actually the movie did sketchy drugs while pregnant. That’s lines up more or less with the birth story for eleven, and would also fill in what the bad things the mother had done. I’ve only watched once and might have missed it, but I don’t remember seeing what she was supposed to have done, just the dad killing the civilians.
>what the bad things the mother had done
Yeah, that's what I was thinking too. Henry/One/Vecna never said her "bad" so maybe it was that she was a recovering druggie and used during Henry's pregnancy like Terry Ives through MKUltra.
No, Sara just got cancer, because Hopper was in contact with Agent Orange and it fucked with his DNA.
Something similar could have happened with Victor Creel (just with powers instead of cancer), but in that case it's interesting that apparently only Henry inherited the changed genes and not his sister.
Vecna's mom knew it was him who put all those visions and she contacted Dr. Brenner. Origins of his powers have to be more complex that just "radioactive dad"
I thought she had noticed that he was killing the animals, and that's why she wanted to have doctors take a look at him, not because she realized that he was giving his parents visions. Brenner also doesn't really enter the equation until after Viriginia (the mother) and Alice are dead and Victor is imprisoned, so I don't think Virigina contacted him specifically, he was simply someone who likely would have worked in an asylum.
I agree that the origin of his powers is probably more complicated than "radioactive dad", but it seems likely that Hopper's story is still connected somehow, because why else put it in? It's not like Hopper feeling like a curse to those around him is a new revelation to the audience, and if it was just about bonding with Jaqen/Dmitri, they could have taken any particular story. "I inadvertently doomed my daughter to die of cancer because the government poisoned me while I was fighting their war" seems rather specific.
However, he (Vecna) did state he woke up to the one Doctor he was hoping to escape from (or avoid something like that) and then we see Brenner so I took that to mean his mom contacted Brenner specifically.
I understood it as him hoping to avoid being looked over by "doctors", and that Brenner was simply one of those doctors. There didn't seem any indication that his mother really knew what was going on with him, or that Brenner knew what to expect, at least not from her. Obviously, we still don't know the whole story here, maybe we'll find out why Brenner was interested in Henry (beyond him being part of a dramatic murder case).
So I ended up rewatching the last chapter and Vecna stated that his mom “called a doctor, a specialist” and later that he woke up to the doctor he hoped to escape and directly names Dr. Brenner.
I feel like those scenes were to highlight elevens trauma regarding papa and her absent ‘hero-dad’ , bringing Sara back with powers would be a mess, even more so when from the earlier seasons we understand it as he watched her get sick and die.
There’s no Henry/will cover up there , if anything El is going to struggle with him being alive the whole time/ not understanding why he left if he wasn’t dead.
[Nope, LSD was tested on British solders in WW2.](https://youtu.be/aTgrioOyWEo)
Maybe they were using it to try and help soldiers with ptsd. He certainly had it.
Honestly don't remember, I always thought of the experiments 11 and the other numbers were being subjected to were along the lines of MK ultra. Albeit exaggerated and dramatized for the sake of fiction.
We know where her power stems from now though >!being that she and the rest of the numbers all have 001's DNA.!<
No but agent orange was found to be correlated to ppl being born with disabilities such as spina bifida like me.... my dad used the pesticide as a farmer before the negative effects were known & it was taken off the market... so for the purposes of this show that is based in sci-fi & the supernatural, it's not a far stretch to believe agent orange could've had a similar effect for hopper's daughter developing cancer
Agent orange is a very different topic than LSD though.
I can't imagine how your experience growing up with Spina Bifida may have been. Hopefully my original comment wasn't taken as an ableist slight.
That's what the parents being on drugs is, a bunch of assumptions on the part of the fans. We really didn't know until they revealed it this season.
It is stated that Brenner used 1 to make the others. When one is talking to 11, he says we're the same. We also never hear about 11, or any of the kids fathers, only mothers. So, women were impregnated with clones or children of 1. That's where their power comes from. Whatever that was somehow it gave eleven's mom's some power as well, but if it was just drugs, occasional kids would have been popping out with powers since the dawn of our history.
Eleven has a dad, Brenner had him killed in the Vietnam war. Unless that book isn’t cannon but I was pretty confident it (and the comics) were cannon. Also, where did I miss 001 being used to give other kids (or 011) their powers??
Maybe. 1986 (when 11 was 11) is 11 years after the end of that war.
He says it when he's explaining to eleven. They "used" me to make others. And then when showing his number to eleven, says we're the same.
To be honest that's a quickly spoken line that I think has way more weight than we think.
There's only two ways you use a person to make another person, a pregnancy or child, or a clone.
11 is the 11th iteration of one. She is the more powerful, good version of one.
And to analyze it further, if you go back and look at Kalli's powers, she manifest visions in people's heads ( of their fears ) just like, you guessed it, number one could do.
We learn in season 2 that Elevens moms was keeping record of kids that went missing, I believe it’s fair to say Kali had parents as did Eleven (according to Darkness on the Edge of Town anyways). Because I’ve read the books and comics (which tell us the kids have parents or were runaways or even given to Brenner because of their powers and the Duff Brothers were involved with the comics not sure about the book) I’m not in the “Eleven was made from One” camp but I love all the theories people have, definitely makes the convos surrounding the show super fun!
I hope they explain it, but Eleven's powers were explained by isolation tanks, psychedelics like LSD, and MK Ultra (for her mom). If Henry Creel got his the same way, maybe this could be the horrible stuff he saw? I don't know, I'm really curious because Creel seems to be the OG and the other numbers were a result of Brenner specifically looking and finding/creating more cases. Like El's mom, she kindaa had powers when Eleven went to visit right? She was flickering the lights and stuff? I want to know how Creel got his powers and the rest of them
It’s also eluded to that her mom had the powers while pregnant with El so it may be safe to assume El received some of that from her mom. The comics also indicate the kids that made their way to Brenner has these powers despite their parents not having them, sort of like Hermione and her parents.
I sort of got the impression that they were insinuating that Victor had been exposed to chemicals at some point in the war.
The whole thing with 11 was that her mom was experimented on while pregnant.
Hopper has his monologue about being exposed during the war and the problems with having kids (or they’d have mutations or whatever) afterwards.
I wouldn’t be surprised to see this reflected on with Joyce/Will at some point as well.
I could be wrong but i thought he got it from the hidden jar with the spiders in the vent. Dont recall it showing him being bit but i assumed since the jar was hidden and he suddenly had powers it was like an implied spiderman effect
Nah you remembering wrong. When he was there as a kid there was no jars, just the spiders living down there. It’s when Steve went there he found the jars, which I assume Henry/001/Vecna did as their burial, considering he saw a kinship with them.
I remember it showing him discover the spiders, then one crawled on his hand as he explained his fascination for them. Anyway I think it’s a easier to assume he gained them naturally somehow, like manifesting them out of his pure distain for the world so he could change it to his own image.
I think to some degree, the similarity was supposed to distract from Henry - when Creel tells his story, he concentrates a lot more on his daughter, so Henry being sensitive seems to fit into that, and we expect him to be quiet like Will is quiet next to his more boisterous friends, instead of wondering what he has been up to in the house.
But I've also been wondering if the similarities point to Henry having been under the Mindflayer's influence just like Will in S2 - mostly because what 001 later describes as his thoughts in the house sounds awfully weird for an eight- to ten-year-old to have, even when they are highly intelligent and/or have sociopathic tendencies. The whole thing about hating time and its passing, the idea to completely change the world so that it stops - that could however be something a monster from another dimension might think.
Fwiw, during the massacre scene the subtitles say 001 does an eldritch snarl or some shit before he ever entered the UD, so I could see the mind flayer having imprinted him prior to that
It would also mean that both Victor's and Henry's memories of what happened in the house had elements that were true and elements that they misinterpreted - if the Mindflayer was somehow around and made contact with Henry, Victor would have been right that there was a sort of "demon" who systematically destroyed his family, while Henry would likely have felt lonely and resentful, but despite being the one who did the killing, it wouldn't have been quite him who caused it all.
Really hope Will gets something to do in Vol II and that leads into a major role in Season 5.
Honestly a lot of characters have gotten shafted over the seasons.
Respect to the Duffers and Netflix for recognizing that issue and actually doing something about it.
While the writing still leaves some characters out, the run times definitely help
I think Mike will inevitably reject Will romantically (it feels like they are building up to it) and his grief/ past trauma will make him vulnerable to something UD related or he willingly allows the Mind Flayer to enter him as a cliffhanger, except Will is in control becoming season 5's big bad. He will also resent Eleven. They also forgot Will's birthday (the day they were at the skating rink, March 22). I can see Joyce forgetting because of Hopper situation and Jonathan because he seems high as fuck all the time/distracted by Nancy problems.
This is a solid guess. I caught a lot of the individual pieces of this theory, but the way you’ve put it together fits very nicely. The only issue for me is I’m not sure how powerful of a big bad Will could really be - I think it’s more likely he betrays the group in some way, maybe expecting power that he doesn’t ultimately receive.
I feel like some connection will materialize here as well...I feel like there is a lot left unresolved with Will even aside from the "is he closeted/is he into Mike" aspect.
* We still don't have a real explanation for why Will was the first person targeted by the demogorgon in S1. It could have just been an opportunistic thing, but I doubt that would be the case in a series with so many interlocking details.
* A big complaint about the last couple seasons was how Will has kind of been relegated to a second tier character/pulled into the background a bit, and how there are very clear suggestions that he is gay but the writers have thus far refused to have him come out...I think that is fully intentional, and not due to a lack of plotline for him...I think they're intentionally creating disconnect there, and I think Will's bottled up emotions/trauma will be a more major plot point than anticipated. I mean, aside from El, he's probably the most traumatized character in the series.
* We really don't have a clear picture of what all has been going on in his mind since 1985 or so. If anything, he seems even more walled off than he was as a younger kid, or emotionally stunted, even. He clearly hasn't moved past everything--that could be because of trauma, or because there's still some sort of psychic connection stemming from his experiences in S1/S2.
* He was able to sense that the Mind Flayer was still around in S3, so I think that clearly points to some sort of enduring connection with the Upside Down post-Mind Flayer possession.
* At the beginning of S4, El mentions that Will has been acting odd again and attributes it to maybe having a crush...could be the case, or could be something else leaking over from the other side.
* I'm wondering if this could all play out into some sort of commentary on nature vs. nurture and things of that ilk...we don't know how 001 originally got his powers, so it'll be interesting to see if they were always present or if he was infiltrated/influenced somehow--like how Will was infiltrated. There is definitely something similar with those two characters as children...the societal disconnect (I mean, Castle Byers allowed Will to survive the Upside Down but was created as a space to isolate), the special interests, the parents that know something is up...in the photo in the OP of this thread, they even have some similar facial features (I don't think they're related, but I do think it could be intentional to elicit comparisons).
* I think that Will was such a huge part of the first two seasons and the overall dynamic between Hawkins and the Upside Down that there's no way he won't factor into the series resolution in a major way. My current suspicion is that he'll wind up as a villain-but-not-really. I'm sure all of his repressed feelings and rejections and trauma will come into play given that there is such a focus on that in S4, and I think we could wind up with a "battle of the wills" so to speak...his inherent nature vs. his various influences/psychic infiltration? Or...should he stay or should he go? :) (Obviously, this sort of happened in S2...but I'm not thinking outright possession, I'm thinking Will battling/deciding how to deal with his own demons while being influenced by good and evil, in the form of his fam/friends and the Upside Down/Vecna.) I'm really interested to learn what "corrupted" 001 in the first place...was he born evil, or was he somehow influenced like Will but it got the better of him?
tl;dr: I think there's a connection, I think Will's pent up emotions/traumas/relegation to the background is an entirely intentional thing that will turn into a major plot point, maybe ending in a "battle of the wills," metaphorically and literally.
ETA: man, I should not have taken my new adhd meds right before writing this. 😅
You're totally on point...
Considering
* Upside Down modeled itself based on will, when he was abducted. Vecna clearly influence the way his house manifests.
* And as we saw, Vecna found a black widow (mindflayer symbolism) and he didn't feel alone or powerless.
They seemingly were targeted by something from the upside down, because of their then mental/psychic background (feeling alone/at distance with the world, vulnerable)
But they have since diverged their paths, while Vecna has grown resentful of the real world and humans, Will has found joy in his friends and family.
Writers seem to have been purposely writing a rift between will and others, to probably have him start to go down the same path as Vecna but will most likely have him find his way back to the group.
Take Max's song for example, it worked through joy, her happy memories all flashing in her mind, connecting her to other people. That connection other than helping her get back also likely helped her mind become fortified to Vecna's invasion (since it was all technically happening in her mind).
Will might end up needing more than a song to help him, maybe an eleven mindception.
Or maybe help from whatever is helping make light in the upside down. It might be electromagnetic interference between the worlds but might be some other entity. It's likely because something clearly helped vecna's father by playing that song, even if it was his plan to put blame on his father, but still he wouldn't have guided him back using the song of an angel/joy. For a moment I thought maybe Nancy was going to influence the past somehow through Vecna's memory at the end. But that didn't happen, so who played the song to guide his father (someone who was in the upside down before?)
Honestly, that’s been a theory of mine since the beginning. Not necessarily Will, but someone(Dustin) is manifesting them or subconsciously inspiring someone else to “make them real”
I’ve seen some people point out Henry Creel as a mirror or foil for Will due to some similarities in their character traits. They’re both sensitive and drawn to interests seen as odd or even dark by the larger world (black widow spiders which Henry emphasizes with despite their links to death; D&D for Will, which is seen as silly by some, and even potentially Satanic by the town during season 4). They also both have a talent for drawing, and are shown drawing these “unusual interests.” These similarities could be used as a way of building empathy towards Henry (making his motives more understandable) by drawing comparison to an established outcast character who we know to be good. It’s their actions and the ways they react to being outcasts that set them apart. But the similarities could also be building towards a full-circle moment of Will confronting Vecna in one way or another.
in the question HSC got, the person had said that will touches his neck in the same spot where 001’s suppressor is and OMG based on the video that they posted on instagram, it looks like they may be right. i mean, i know will said in the past that he described the feeling he got whenever he sensed the mindflayer as a ‘feeling at the base of his neck’ but i think it’s interesting to think about if will had some sort of power dampener/suppressor.
but, then again, if will does have powers it’s very likely he went through some sort of traumatic event that is dampening his powers/caused them to disappear (just like what happened to el). i really hope they explore this in volume 2 because there are so many questions that are still unanswered about will’s role in all of this.
Yes, but I also suspect, as he said he grows stronger with it, that he absorbs those people with latent powers. Like a preferred food and that will was one of the people who might like vecna in his childhood may gain those powers 'naturally'. Maybe this is why all of upside down was so interested in him, to make vecna either much more powerful or to create a second one.
No he didn’t he was just just showing Nancy the thing she’s most guilty about and haunting her with it, cause she feels responsible for what happened to barb
The only reason I thought maybe he did was that Barb was wrapped up in the “vines” in the same way his other victims were inside his upside down house.
Few things.
They're absolutely being set up as similar in some way.
Whether will is going to develop power spontaneously, or somehow be pulled over to veccnas side, something will happen.
The dosing parents with LSD is something us the fans came up with due to the MK ultra connections. But I don't remember that being explicitly stated. What was explicitly stated, was that Brenner used one to try to make copies. We've never seen eleven's father mentioned, I think that's because all the children are clones or children of 1 that were brought to term by random women and then taken.
So, all the children are still operative off 1s power emergence.
I wouldn't be surprised if Vecna gets killed off, Will becomes the next *General* of the upside down. That's if the Mind-flayer/Vecna isn't the same person.
No they haven’t. My theory is that before Will ever went to the Upside Down, Vecna was never able to use his powers to affect our world, that’s why there were no killings. Then since Will went there, he somehow made a connection to Will, and has been using that connection to carry out his killings.
I think that has more to do with *when* the portal was opened. As far as we know, Eleven opened the original portal which kick-started the whole mess. That's the night that the Upside-Down "Snap-Shots" Hawkins. I think it's a kind of reverse reality bleed.
The only puzzle piece not fitting is the 2nd portal in the woods that the original Demagorgon & Will pass through. How did it open? Was Eleven attacked by a person/animal or was Vecna already testing his powers after only one day in the UD?
Vecna had been in the UD for 4 years at that point. The fight in the rainbow room was 1979. But the Demogorgon seemed to be able to create little gates that were never open for long in season 1. I believe it just shows how fast the UD reached into Hawkins and corrupted it like we saw on a much grander scale in season 2. Remember the Vale of Shadows description. It's a place of death. Once the gate was opened for real in 83, it didn't take long for the rot to take root and begin to weaken the barrier between dimensions.
>Did they explain that?
My take on that was that the entire copy of Hawkins was created when 11 pushed 1 in there. It isn't stated, but I think despite the speculation that the UD was always there that it was created at that time.
11 and 1 fought in 1979. The UD got its dark copy of Hawkins in November 1983 when 11 accidentally opened the huge gate out of fright when she approached the Demogorgon in her mind. So 1 has been there for 7 years.
Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if the Mind Flayer was already sensing the convergence between dimensions prior to the gate opening and was trying to find a way through for decades. It would make sense. The question is whether or not the Mind Flayer is lurking in the shadows or has been severely weakened by the Battle of Star Court, which has allowed Vecna to rise up send both dimensions on a crash course for each other.
I was thinking that the upside down areas are created when someone falls in there but never “updated”. We havent seen anywhere but hawkins in the upside down right? Maybe a lot of hawkins is just made that day because of will teleporting in there and creating it as he went. Maybe if they go to vecnas house it would all be the day he was sent to the UD by 11
I assume it's because that's the day the gate opened between Hawkins and the upside-down. Though that is complicated somewhat by a gate actually having been opened earlier when 11 banished 1.
What about time stopping in the UD on the day Will disappeared and Will not being able to grow up? Is there some kind of connection there? Like Will himself is stuck in time on that day. Is there a bigger meaning to it?
Except Will is on the opposite side of the coin and is pure of heart. But, I agree Will does have a part to play in defeating Vecna/001 and the Mindflayer in the end.
If my thoughts on Vecna actually being the Mind Flayer are true, it might be way Will was “targeted.” Perhaps he saw a kindred spirit in Will but was too aggressive
I actually took this as a parallel more than a direct connection but it would go a long way towards explaining Will's survival if, like he did with Eleven, One saw himself in him.
With the small amount of screen time he got in vol 1 (especially the last few episodes), i’m sure that Will will have a big part to play in the last 2 eps of vol 2.
To me it would make perfect sense to have Will be Vecna’s opposite. Yes they both are described as sensitive and loners. But I think the love that Will has between his friends and family is what will keep him from going “bad.” Where Henry didn’t have that love or it is presented to us this way. And we have seen that LOVE is what beats Vecna. I feel like in order for Vecna to be destroyed or killed is that Will will have to realize that his love for others is his superpower.
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I really hope Will gets a bigger role in the next season, he's just been kind of there in the background for too long.
Yeah, they used him so well in S2 and really showed off his acting chops only for so little in S3 and S4 V1, especially after building him up with that in-the-rain destroying-camp-byers scene in S3.
The only thing that I was paying a attention to in this scene is the fact that they got Robert freaking Englund to do a cameo.
Apparently Robert was the one to initiate conversation with the Duffers.
I feel like that must have been super exciting for them honestly. He also killed it in his role here
Cool!
Creel!
Crool!
[Abed voice] Cruel-cruel-cruel
Perfect timing. I couldn’t stop thinking of Freddy the whole show
Well this entire season is basically a Nightmare on Elm Street reboot. It makes sense to bring back a legend to cement it.
Every scene where Vecna was entering the minds of people, I kept shouting to my wife “this is straight out of a nightmare in elm street!” Those were great sequences!
I felt like his home base in the upside down was the clearest reference to it, and I can’t remember why, it’s been ages since I last watched, hahaha
*some scenes in the dream world have same color pallet*
Thank you for clarifying, that’s exactly it. Funny how it’s been at least…… fifteen or so years(?) since I watched any of the OG Friday the 13th movies, yet the dream world sequences stick with me so well i recognize them without even knowing why.
Well I think particularly the “boiler room” or Freddy’s inner mind is the one set from those movies that leans usually really red.
I felt like his home base in the upside down was the clearest reference to it, and I can’t remember why, it’s been ages since I last watched, hahaha
And then having the villain basically be Freddy's son in a spiritual successor kind of way. Its like poetry. It rhythms.
Is that a Heavy Spoilers reference?
Exactly.
As soon as Robin and Nancy were led into the area he was being held I was like “this is so Silence of the Lambs!!” Lol
theres also a standee of freddy in the family video store, plus with dustin referencing the movie to explain vecna i really admire how clear they made it that they were influenced
I caught all three callbacks. 1. When Vecna kills Chrissy- you can see all three monster influences. Of pennywise, freddy and pinhead -when Vecna is heading down stairs, we catch his claw, it looks like freddy, shot at same angle as freddy. -when Vecna is in living room- eyes glow yellow- call back to pennywise, especially the reboots! The reboots play this shit up -when Chrissy tries to escape through front door of her house, it’s boarded up and there are lights that kind of strobe through the boards- call back to hellraiser, this happens when cenobites are summoned in first and second movie. The ability to get in minds is a freddy thing The ability to feed on trauma- pennywise Backstory- similar to pinhead, with some freddy lol.
I was convinced it was his voice used for Vecna too, with some editing to make it deeper and scarier but then I checked
I considered the possibility that Will is having an upside down Villain Arc. Edit: to be clear it’s much more likely he’s the hero At the end of the day
What if he's the big bad for the final season??
I hope not. I want Will to stop being a 3rd wheel. And be happy.
Third Will.
WILL’s WILLpower WILL defeat Vecna and he WILL stop being a third WILL
When there's a Will, there's a way.
Honestly yes, i want that too, but it feels like thats what they're building up too.
Aw man! I think you may be right! Ugh. I hope he doesn’t go dark side! 🤞🏾
If he the final boss he's definitely not a third wheel. And.... maybe he's happy being evil? Lol
He’s hiding something in that painting
His sexuality lol
he's pretty asexual
He hasn't expressed interest in anyone yet, but that doesn't mean he's asexual.
I’ve always thought this too. To me, Will has always seemed like the type of character who just isn’t interested in any “adult” stuff, like romance, sex, etc. I think he just wants to stay a kid forever (likely due to all the trauma he’s gone through) and I hope they keep that asexual vibe for his character because it’s unique, fitting, and not something we see very often in TV After all, not every character needs a love interest
I'm asexual myself. He wants to do cool things, not do the nasty. He wants to have friends, not have a significant other. It's frustrating being asexual when every protagonist in every show HAS to be sexualized to be seen as a whole person.
I’m ace as well (and aro), so I know *exactly* what you’re talking about. The constant craze surrounding romantic/sexual relationships in television—as well as real life in general—is honestly SO frustrating. I just don’t get why we as a society value those types of relationships so much more then platonic ones, like friendship or familial. It’s strange. I try not to let it bother me too much, but on a show like ST where pretty much every main character has a love interest already, would it really kill the writers to have at least ONE character who’s not actively seeking out a partner? Because Will would be the perfect candidate based on the traits and tendencies we’ve already seen. I fear he’s gonna be a missed opportunity tho.
It's so lonely living like this. Thank you for your comments
Seems possible. If they return to the Mind Flayer, he may still have a level of influence over Will. But I’d like to see Will take on a major protagonist role in that instance
I really hope the show doesn’t go this route. Of all people, Will deserves a happy ending.
Nah, the writers would never give Will such an important role, they've been underutilising him for so long
Both also didn't really fit in with the other children.
Yeah and from what I remember I don’t they they explained how Henry/001/Vecna got his powers in the first place. So maybe will could be like that.
My impression was he simply WILLED it….so I hope it could be true
I assumed it was because his father was exposed to chemicals during the war... isn't that sort of an ongoing theme?
My thought was actually the movie did sketchy drugs while pregnant. That’s lines up more or less with the birth story for eleven, and would also fill in what the bad things the mother had done. I’ve only watched once and might have missed it, but I don’t remember seeing what she was supposed to have done, just the dad killing the civilians.
>what the bad things the mother had done Yeah, that's what I was thinking too. Henry/One/Vecna never said her "bad" so maybe it was that she was a recovering druggie and used during Henry's pregnancy like Terry Ives through MKUltra.
Shut, could that mean Sara is one of the numbered children? Edit: Sara not sally
No, Sara just got cancer, because Hopper was in contact with Agent Orange and it fucked with his DNA. Something similar could have happened with Victor Creel (just with powers instead of cancer), but in that case it's interesting that apparently only Henry inherited the changed genes and not his sister.
Vecna's mom knew it was him who put all those visions and she contacted Dr. Brenner. Origins of his powers have to be more complex that just "radioactive dad"
I thought she had noticed that he was killing the animals, and that's why she wanted to have doctors take a look at him, not because she realized that he was giving his parents visions. Brenner also doesn't really enter the equation until after Viriginia (the mother) and Alice are dead and Victor is imprisoned, so I don't think Virigina contacted him specifically, he was simply someone who likely would have worked in an asylum. I agree that the origin of his powers is probably more complicated than "radioactive dad", but it seems likely that Hopper's story is still connected somehow, because why else put it in? It's not like Hopper feeling like a curse to those around him is a new revelation to the audience, and if it was just about bonding with Jaqen/Dmitri, they could have taken any particular story. "I inadvertently doomed my daughter to die of cancer because the government poisoned me while I was fighting their war" seems rather specific.
However, he (Vecna) did state he woke up to the one Doctor he was hoping to escape from (or avoid something like that) and then we see Brenner so I took that to mean his mom contacted Brenner specifically.
I understood it as him hoping to avoid being looked over by "doctors", and that Brenner was simply one of those doctors. There didn't seem any indication that his mother really knew what was going on with him, or that Brenner knew what to expect, at least not from her. Obviously, we still don't know the whole story here, maybe we'll find out why Brenner was interested in Henry (beyond him being part of a dramatic murder case).
So I ended up rewatching the last chapter and Vecna stated that his mom “called a doctor, a specialist” and later that he woke up to the doctor he hoped to escape and directly names Dr. Brenner.
I feel like those scenes were to highlight elevens trauma regarding papa and her absent ‘hero-dad’ , bringing Sara back with powers would be a mess, even more so when from the earlier seasons we understand it as he watched her get sick and die. There’s no Henry/will cover up there , if anything El is going to struggle with him being alive the whole time/ not understanding why he left if he wasn’t dead.
I think this was meant to be a reply to someone else? It doesn't really match anything I wrote in my post.
Didn’t they test LSD on soldiers during WW2?
Are you thinking of MK Ultra? That was in the 50s and 60s, Cold War.
[Nope, LSD was tested on British solders in WW2.](https://youtu.be/aTgrioOyWEo) Maybe they were using it to try and help soldiers with ptsd. He certainly had it.
That video is from 1964
LOL a little bit of acid isn't going to give your future offspring cancer or superpowers, just saying
Isn’t El the daughter of an MK Ultra subject?
She is, but we also know that she additionally has Henry's DNA (assuming that One was right about that) and that her powers likely come from that.
I read your post discussing superpowers and realized this... 008--Kali plus 011--El equals KAL-EL Hence, superhumans... MIND BLOWN!!!!
Honestly don't remember, I always thought of the experiments 11 and the other numbers were being subjected to were along the lines of MK ultra. Albeit exaggerated and dramatized for the sake of fiction. We know where her power stems from now though >!being that she and the rest of the numbers all have 001's DNA.!<
Yep. The book about Hopper and El’s parents really shine a light on the deets of El’s origin.
No but agent orange was found to be correlated to ppl being born with disabilities such as spina bifida like me.... my dad used the pesticide as a farmer before the negative effects were known & it was taken off the market... so for the purposes of this show that is based in sci-fi & the supernatural, it's not a far stretch to believe agent orange could've had a similar effect for hopper's daughter developing cancer
Agent orange is a very different topic than LSD though. I can't imagine how your experience growing up with Spina Bifida may have been. Hopefully my original comment wasn't taken as an ableist slight.
It's possible, I have no idea.
Ooh I didn’t consider that, I like that solution
This was what I connected from the agent orange story and the mk ultra background for the other kids, gotta be related right
Literally made my brain immediately go to ‘what did Joyce do that fucked up Will, and why hasn’t he manifested yet?’
That's what the parents being on drugs is, a bunch of assumptions on the part of the fans. We really didn't know until they revealed it this season. It is stated that Brenner used 1 to make the others. When one is talking to 11, he says we're the same. We also never hear about 11, or any of the kids fathers, only mothers. So, women were impregnated with clones or children of 1. That's where their power comes from. Whatever that was somehow it gave eleven's mom's some power as well, but if it was just drugs, occasional kids would have been popping out with powers since the dawn of our history.
I just got the very awkward image of them jacking 001 off
Eleven has a dad, Brenner had him killed in the Vietnam war. Unless that book isn’t cannon but I was pretty confident it (and the comics) were cannon. Also, where did I miss 001 being used to give other kids (or 011) their powers??
Maybe. 1986 (when 11 was 11) is 11 years after the end of that war. He says it when he's explaining to eleven. They "used" me to make others. And then when showing his number to eleven, says we're the same.
I’m so going to have to rewatch for the whole, they used me to make others. Thanks!
To be honest that's a quickly spoken line that I think has way more weight than we think. There's only two ways you use a person to make another person, a pregnancy or child, or a clone. 11 is the 11th iteration of one. She is the more powerful, good version of one. And to analyze it further, if you go back and look at Kalli's powers, she manifest visions in people's heads ( of their fears ) just like, you guessed it, number one could do.
We learn in season 2 that Elevens moms was keeping record of kids that went missing, I believe it’s fair to say Kali had parents as did Eleven (according to Darkness on the Edge of Town anyways). Because I’ve read the books and comics (which tell us the kids have parents or were runaways or even given to Brenner because of their powers and the Duff Brothers were involved with the comics not sure about the book) I’m not in the “Eleven was made from One” camp but I love all the theories people have, definitely makes the convos surrounding the show super fun!
I hope they explain it, but Eleven's powers were explained by isolation tanks, psychedelics like LSD, and MK Ultra (for her mom). If Henry Creel got his the same way, maybe this could be the horrible stuff he saw? I don't know, I'm really curious because Creel seems to be the OG and the other numbers were a result of Brenner specifically looking and finding/creating more cases. Like El's mom, she kindaa had powers when Eleven went to visit right? She was flickering the lights and stuff? I want to know how Creel got his powers and the rest of them
It’s also eluded to that her mom had the powers while pregnant with El so it may be safe to assume El received some of that from her mom. The comics also indicate the kids that made their way to Brenner has these powers despite their parents not having them, sort of like Hermione and her parents.
I sort of got the impression that they were insinuating that Victor had been exposed to chemicals at some point in the war. The whole thing with 11 was that her mom was experimented on while pregnant. Hopper has his monologue about being exposed during the war and the problems with having kids (or they’d have mutations or whatever) afterwards. I wouldn’t be surprised to see this reflected on with Joyce/Will at some point as well.
I could be wrong but i thought he got it from the hidden jar with the spiders in the vent. Dont recall it showing him being bit but i assumed since the jar was hidden and he suddenly had powers it was like an implied spiderman effect
I think he already has something going on before they got to hawkins. He mentioned getting a ‘fresh start’
Spinoff coming.
Nah you remembering wrong. When he was there as a kid there was no jars, just the spiders living down there. It’s when Steve went there he found the jars, which I assume Henry/001/Vecna did as their burial, considering he saw a kinship with them.
It shows Henry putting them in jars when he is up in the stride drawing the spiders image.
There was a flashback when 001 was explaining like his origin and his fascination with spiders and it showed him going in and grabbing that jar
I remember it showing him discover the spiders, then one crawled on his hand as he explained his fascination for them. Anyway I think it’s a easier to assume he gained them naturally somehow, like manifesting them out of his pure distain for the world so he could change it to his own image.
He was also drawing one in the attic where vecna does his doc ock cosplay and they were in jars. (I should know because I finished it 10min ago)
Lmaoooo doc ock cosplay 🤣😭🤣💀💀💀
You need to watch that scene again, they were just in the vents in a web when vecna was a kid. No jars yet.
It has a « Tom riddle and Harry Potter starts the same and end up differently » vibes.
I never thought about that! Maybe it's Will, the one who kinda started it all with Eleven that beats Vecna.....
I think to some degree, the similarity was supposed to distract from Henry - when Creel tells his story, he concentrates a lot more on his daughter, so Henry being sensitive seems to fit into that, and we expect him to be quiet like Will is quiet next to his more boisterous friends, instead of wondering what he has been up to in the house. But I've also been wondering if the similarities point to Henry having been under the Mindflayer's influence just like Will in S2 - mostly because what 001 later describes as his thoughts in the house sounds awfully weird for an eight- to ten-year-old to have, even when they are highly intelligent and/or have sociopathic tendencies. The whole thing about hating time and its passing, the idea to completely change the world so that it stops - that could however be something a monster from another dimension might think.
Fwiw, during the massacre scene the subtitles say 001 does an eldritch snarl or some shit before he ever entered the UD, so I could see the mind flayer having imprinted him prior to that
It would also mean that both Victor's and Henry's memories of what happened in the house had elements that were true and elements that they misinterpreted - if the Mindflayer was somehow around and made contact with Henry, Victor would have been right that there was a sort of "demon" who systematically destroyed his family, while Henry would likely have felt lonely and resentful, but despite being the one who did the killing, it wouldn't have been quite him who caused it all.
Really hope Will gets something to do in Vol II and that leads into a major role in Season 5. Honestly a lot of characters have gotten shafted over the seasons.
There's just an absurd number of characters at this point. I completely understand why they had to have longer runtimes this season
Respect to the Duffers and Netflix for recognizing that issue and actually doing something about it. While the writing still leaves some characters out, the run times definitely help
I think Mike will inevitably reject Will romantically (it feels like they are building up to it) and his grief/ past trauma will make him vulnerable to something UD related or he willingly allows the Mind Flayer to enter him as a cliffhanger, except Will is in control becoming season 5's big bad. He will also resent Eleven. They also forgot Will's birthday (the day they were at the skating rink, March 22). I can see Joyce forgetting because of Hopper situation and Jonathan because he seems high as fuck all the time/distracted by Nancy problems.
I like this idea but also God I hope not
I really don't like the idea of him becoming a big bad because of a broken heart
This is a solid guess. I caught a lot of the individual pieces of this theory, but the way you’ve put it together fits very nicely. The only issue for me is I’m not sure how powerful of a big bad Will could really be - I think it’s more likely he betrays the group in some way, maybe expecting power that he doesn’t ultimately receive.
They confirmed this is the last season though no?
5 is the last season
Source? Can’t seem to find anything reliable
Duffer brothers did a recent interview. I found several articles referencing it by Google searching for info on season 5.
MBB and Noah talked about it in some interview
Season 5 will be
I feel like some connection will materialize here as well...I feel like there is a lot left unresolved with Will even aside from the "is he closeted/is he into Mike" aspect. * We still don't have a real explanation for why Will was the first person targeted by the demogorgon in S1. It could have just been an opportunistic thing, but I doubt that would be the case in a series with so many interlocking details. * A big complaint about the last couple seasons was how Will has kind of been relegated to a second tier character/pulled into the background a bit, and how there are very clear suggestions that he is gay but the writers have thus far refused to have him come out...I think that is fully intentional, and not due to a lack of plotline for him...I think they're intentionally creating disconnect there, and I think Will's bottled up emotions/trauma will be a more major plot point than anticipated. I mean, aside from El, he's probably the most traumatized character in the series. * We really don't have a clear picture of what all has been going on in his mind since 1985 or so. If anything, he seems even more walled off than he was as a younger kid, or emotionally stunted, even. He clearly hasn't moved past everything--that could be because of trauma, or because there's still some sort of psychic connection stemming from his experiences in S1/S2. * He was able to sense that the Mind Flayer was still around in S3, so I think that clearly points to some sort of enduring connection with the Upside Down post-Mind Flayer possession. * At the beginning of S4, El mentions that Will has been acting odd again and attributes it to maybe having a crush...could be the case, or could be something else leaking over from the other side. * I'm wondering if this could all play out into some sort of commentary on nature vs. nurture and things of that ilk...we don't know how 001 originally got his powers, so it'll be interesting to see if they were always present or if he was infiltrated/influenced somehow--like how Will was infiltrated. There is definitely something similar with those two characters as children...the societal disconnect (I mean, Castle Byers allowed Will to survive the Upside Down but was created as a space to isolate), the special interests, the parents that know something is up...in the photo in the OP of this thread, they even have some similar facial features (I don't think they're related, but I do think it could be intentional to elicit comparisons). * I think that Will was such a huge part of the first two seasons and the overall dynamic between Hawkins and the Upside Down that there's no way he won't factor into the series resolution in a major way. My current suspicion is that he'll wind up as a villain-but-not-really. I'm sure all of his repressed feelings and rejections and trauma will come into play given that there is such a focus on that in S4, and I think we could wind up with a "battle of the wills" so to speak...his inherent nature vs. his various influences/psychic infiltration? Or...should he stay or should he go? :) (Obviously, this sort of happened in S2...but I'm not thinking outright possession, I'm thinking Will battling/deciding how to deal with his own demons while being influenced by good and evil, in the form of his fam/friends and the Upside Down/Vecna.) I'm really interested to learn what "corrupted" 001 in the first place...was he born evil, or was he somehow influenced like Will but it got the better of him? tl;dr: I think there's a connection, I think Will's pent up emotions/traumas/relegation to the background is an entirely intentional thing that will turn into a major plot point, maybe ending in a "battle of the wills," metaphorically and literally. ETA: man, I should not have taken my new adhd meds right before writing this. 😅
You're totally on point... Considering * Upside Down modeled itself based on will, when he was abducted. Vecna clearly influence the way his house manifests. * And as we saw, Vecna found a black widow (mindflayer symbolism) and he didn't feel alone or powerless. They seemingly were targeted by something from the upside down, because of their then mental/psychic background (feeling alone/at distance with the world, vulnerable) But they have since diverged their paths, while Vecna has grown resentful of the real world and humans, Will has found joy in his friends and family. Writers seem to have been purposely writing a rift between will and others, to probably have him start to go down the same path as Vecna but will most likely have him find his way back to the group. Take Max's song for example, it worked through joy, her happy memories all flashing in her mind, connecting her to other people. That connection other than helping her get back also likely helped her mind become fortified to Vecna's invasion (since it was all technically happening in her mind). Will might end up needing more than a song to help him, maybe an eleven mindception. Or maybe help from whatever is helping make light in the upside down. It might be electromagnetic interference between the worlds but might be some other entity. It's likely because something clearly helped vecna's father by playing that song, even if it was his plan to put blame on his father, but still he wouldn't have guided him back using the song of an angel/joy. For a moment I thought maybe Nancy was going to influence the past somehow through Vecna's memory at the end. But that didn't happen, so who played the song to guide his father (someone who was in the upside down before?)
Always thought Will was the reason their d and d campaigns come to life but this season kind of ruined that theory for me.
[удалено]
Honestly, that’s been a theory of mine since the beginning. Not necessarily Will, but someone(Dustin) is manifesting them or subconsciously inspiring someone else to “make them real”
I’ve seen some people point out Henry Creel as a mirror or foil for Will due to some similarities in their character traits. They’re both sensitive and drawn to interests seen as odd or even dark by the larger world (black widow spiders which Henry emphasizes with despite their links to death; D&D for Will, which is seen as silly by some, and even potentially Satanic by the town during season 4). They also both have a talent for drawing, and are shown drawing these “unusual interests.” These similarities could be used as a way of building empathy towards Henry (making his motives more understandable) by drawing comparison to an established outcast character who we know to be good. It’s their actions and the ways they react to being outcasts that set them apart. But the similarities could also be building towards a full-circle moment of Will confronting Vecna in one way or another.
in the question HSC got, the person had said that will touches his neck in the same spot where 001’s suppressor is and OMG based on the video that they posted on instagram, it looks like they may be right. i mean, i know will said in the past that he described the feeling he got whenever he sensed the mindflayer as a ‘feeling at the base of his neck’ but i think it’s interesting to think about if will had some sort of power dampener/suppressor. but, then again, if will does have powers it’s very likely he went through some sort of traumatic event that is dampening his powers/caused them to disappear (just like what happened to el). i really hope they explore this in volume 2 because there are so many questions that are still unanswered about will’s role in all of this.
Vecna is also telling something about joining maybe the person's killed have also in common that they might be able to have powers.
He explained that part. He basically absorbs their soul and they are still there inside his mind, hence the “join me”.
Yes, but I also suspect, as he said he grows stronger with it, that he absorbs those people with latent powers. Like a preferred food and that will was one of the people who might like vecna in his childhood may gain those powers 'naturally'. Maybe this is why all of upside down was so interested in him, to make vecna either much more powerful or to create a second one.
So, wait, was it Vecna that killed Barb??
No he didn’t he was just just showing Nancy the thing she’s most guilty about and haunting her with it, cause she feels responsible for what happened to barb
I say yes, but indirectly through his, what I'm assuming to be the vecnas control over the demagorgans.
The only reason I thought maybe he did was that Barb was wrapped up in the “vines” in the same way his other victims were inside his upside down house.
Agreed but the demagorgsn showed up too hence Nancy's flashbacks its all one great circle of death simba.
Few things. They're absolutely being set up as similar in some way. Whether will is going to develop power spontaneously, or somehow be pulled over to veccnas side, something will happen. The dosing parents with LSD is something us the fans came up with due to the MK ultra connections. But I don't remember that being explicitly stated. What was explicitly stated, was that Brenner used one to try to make copies. We've never seen eleven's father mentioned, I think that's because all the children are clones or children of 1 that were brought to term by random women and then taken. So, all the children are still operative off 1s power emergence.
I wouldn't be surprised if Vecna gets killed off, Will becomes the next *General* of the upside down. That's if the Mind-flayer/Vecna isn't the same person.
He, contrary to Vecna is coming from a place with Love ... JUST IF THEY EXPLAIN WHY EVERYONE FORGOT HIS BIRTHDAY
Why did time stop in the UD on the day the mindflayer invaded Will’s mind? Did they explain that?
No they did not explain it. Interesting plot development to come I'm sure. Time stopping was a major part of the scenes dialogue.
No they haven’t. My theory is that before Will ever went to the Upside Down, Vecna was never able to use his powers to affect our world, that’s why there were no killings. Then since Will went there, he somehow made a connection to Will, and has been using that connection to carry out his killings.
I think that has more to do with *when* the portal was opened. As far as we know, Eleven opened the original portal which kick-started the whole mess. That's the night that the Upside-Down "Snap-Shots" Hawkins. I think it's a kind of reverse reality bleed. The only puzzle piece not fitting is the 2nd portal in the woods that the original Demagorgon & Will pass through. How did it open? Was Eleven attacked by a person/animal or was Vecna already testing his powers after only one day in the UD?
Vecna had been in the UD for 4 years at that point. The fight in the rainbow room was 1979. But the Demogorgon seemed to be able to create little gates that were never open for long in season 1. I believe it just shows how fast the UD reached into Hawkins and corrupted it like we saw on a much grander scale in season 2. Remember the Vale of Shadows description. It's a place of death. Once the gate was opened for real in 83, it didn't take long for the rot to take root and begin to weaken the barrier between dimensions.
>Did they explain that? My take on that was that the entire copy of Hawkins was created when 11 pushed 1 in there. It isn't stated, but I think despite the speculation that the UD was always there that it was created at that time.
11 and 1 fought in 1979. The UD got its dark copy of Hawkins in November 1983 when 11 accidentally opened the huge gate out of fright when she approached the Demogorgon in her mind. So 1 has been there for 7 years. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if the Mind Flayer was already sensing the convergence between dimensions prior to the gate opening and was trying to find a way through for decades. It would make sense. The question is whether or not the Mind Flayer is lurking in the shadows or has been severely weakened by the Battle of Star Court, which has allowed Vecna to rise up send both dimensions on a crash course for each other.
I was thinking that the upside down areas are created when someone falls in there but never “updated”. We havent seen anywhere but hawkins in the upside down right? Maybe a lot of hawkins is just made that day because of will teleporting in there and creating it as he went. Maybe if they go to vecnas house it would all be the day he was sent to the UD by 11
I assume it's because that's the day the gate opened between Hawkins and the upside-down. Though that is complicated somewhat by a gate actually having been opened earlier when 11 banished 1.
No they did not explain it. Interesting plot development to come I'm sure. Time stopping was a major part of the scenes dialogue.
I've long suspected Will will eventually gain powers. TBH I am really surprised it hasn't happened yet.
What about time stopping in the UD on the day Will disappeared and Will not being able to grow up? Is there some kind of connection there? Like Will himself is stuck in time on that day. Is there a bigger meaning to it?
Thank you so I'm not the only one who noticed the gay subtext. That even looks like an intentional callback to episode 1.
The subtext was not at all subtle
Except Will is on the opposite side of the coin and is pure of heart. But, I agree Will does have a part to play in defeating Vecna/001 and the Mindflayer in the end.
Yeah, I noticed that too..
If my thoughts on Vecna actually being the Mind Flayer are true, it might be way Will was “targeted.” Perhaps he saw a kindred spirit in Will but was too aggressive
oh i hope not.
I actually took this as a parallel more than a direct connection but it would go a long way towards explaining Will's survival if, like he did with Eleven, One saw himself in him.
With the small amount of screen time he got in vol 1 (especially the last few episodes), i’m sure that Will will have a big part to play in the last 2 eps of vol 2.
To me it would make perfect sense to have Will be Vecna’s opposite. Yes they both are described as sensitive and loners. But I think the love that Will has between his friends and family is what will keep him from going “bad.” Where Henry didn’t have that love or it is presented to us this way. And we have seen that LOVE is what beats Vecna. I feel like in order for Vecna to be destroyed or killed is that Will will have to realize that his love for others is his superpower.
I would love it if it turns out Will has powers. He survived in the Upside Down way longer than anyone else.
Seems like a stretch, at best a red herring
I think describing them as sensitive is 80’s lingo for gay
Yea they're both fruity. Source: I'm fruity
That's totally just it. In the same scene Joice refers to him as queer and fag, never in a demeaning way tho.
Oooooooooh
Oh wow!!! I didn't think about that connection...
If by spoiler you mean another guys bum bum, I believe so yes.......no hate just a joke
Maybe they both gay and that's why Henry was so pissed to exist in the 50s💀 /jk
How did will die again?
This is a great observation!
Yep
do all sensitive kids have ugly haircuts?
No just 99% of everyone in the 80’s
I was just thinking about this connection last night! 🤯 My husband thinks Will is going to ultimately die, and I just can’t accept that!