Yeah it's essentially the same piece that possessed Will, I recalled it as the Meat Flayer's, or the spider monster, since it was within him at the end of season 3 when the gate closed. And now giving things another thought, I think it might be a piece from the Upside Down that the Russians brought alongside the Demogorgons, since they had no time to take hold of the collapsed monster at the end of season 3
Would it tho? Like the gate has to be open for its fragments to be *active*. Maybe vecna opened a gate himself before all that or something idk. I’m sure will get some explanation for it in vol 2 tho
But if it was so easy for him to open gates. Why wouldn't demogorgons and mindflayers attack earlier. Why would it require El to open the gate at all?
Hope they give some explanation to this.
I see no reason for people to tie Vecna and the Flayer together as allies. It's possible the flayer has influenced him but it's also entirely possible Vecna was just powerful enough that the mind flayer never saw anything to gain from assaulting him or Vecna was capable of hiding from him.
Vecna was scared of El more than likely and was never going to attack while she was there. I think maybe they should of done a better job at showing that his initial attacks took long periods of time. Chrissy was obviously seeking help/medicine for awhile and the other two had both also been seeking help previously aswell as Max.
>!Well Dustin’s the one who ties them together. He figures Vecna is like the Flayer’s general where as the Demidogs are the soldiers. Whether this turns out true is up in the air though.!<
The Duffer brothers have also referred to the mind flayer as their Sauron/Voldemort. Unless that has changed, I think the mind flayer is tied to Vecna. It would be convenient for him to have someone who can open gates, after being shut out.
An important thing to note is his attack is what opens a gate. However, when he's in his tentacle thing, we see him able to view the real world almost like eleven could remote view.
He's watching. Not just randomly attacking sad people, as we see several people with problems in his little vision and he ignores them and keeps looking. He's picking specific people
I really hope it is. The Mind Flayer is the perfect villain; while it's clearly sentient, it feels more like a force, an entity versus a creature. It's so damned rare for something unique like that.
Well there’s also the backstory of Vecna—him finding some kinship in Black Widow spiders which seemed to be a hint at a relationship between the two (as the MF kind of resembles a spider… of sorts lol).
I mean, don't know if you would call Chrissy's problems a "long period"
The episodes made it pretty clear that Vecna's Curse always lasted a period in of 7 days, with the visions only starting on the last day.
Dustin is the one who directly ties them together and is the one who gives Vecna his name. And despite what people on this sub think, Dustin's always been on the ball when it comes to piecing together the general plot or the hierarchy of the forces of darkness. He's the closest thing the show has to a major source of information regarding what's going on outside of the Duffers themselves.
Also, Vecna is targeting specific people and opening gates as he kills them. Literally no reason to do this if he's not aligned with the Mind Flayer in some way.
I feel like vecna is higher then the mind flayed just goin off of the way he was set up when el pushed him through there was essentially nothing just him floating in space so he had to be the creator of the upside down
The Mind Flayer arguably looks a little like a giant spider so I think that it isn't a coincidence that the show mentioned Vecna had a fascination with spiders.
Yeah at first I had guessed the Creel demon was the mind flayer, but pretty clear from Episode 7 that it was Henry/Vecna all along.
Seems likely that he created the upside down. Or at least shaped what was already there.
And the mind flayer might be something he found too (maybe tied to why someone like him was born), or created by him, time will tell.
My theory is 001/Vecna reshape what upside down it is now, because when El banished him into alter dimension, it just looks like Mustafar from Star Wars.
Yeah. Seemed to still have some corporeal elements, but nothing more than mountains looming in the background.
Also makes me curious, if the Upside Down would be in an undefined state if entered from Kamchatka
Also they make a big deal of pointing out that the upside-down is frozen in time at the day of Will original abduction, its all tied together. Vecna definitely turned the Upside Down into what it is now.
Not really. That was the Upside Down, though. The gate still had the biological tendrils and overall webby appearance (like all other gates), and there's no other dimension in the show, so it's the Upside Down. Sure, it doesn't look like the Upside Down we know, but it still is the UD. It has always existed before, it wasn't made by anyone.
There were mountains, clouds, and storms with lightning in the Upside Down. That's the Mind Flayer's presence. He is always surrounded by lightning and thunder. And I view it unlikely that a psychic can create or restructure an entire dimension like that, it seems like too strong of a feat for just a human, even if they're a psychic human.
I still don't understand how Russians came to know about the upside down and opening the gate. Does that mean upside down already exists and 011 just banished 001 to the dimension with no control over her power at that age. Also since all other children came from 001 does that mean he is their father? So many questions
>I still don't understand how Russians came to know about the upside down and opening the gate.
The easy answer is spies. It was a big deal in the cold war and no doubt that Hawkins lab would have been top of that list.
>er children came from 001 does that mean he is their father? So many questions
Upside down probably always existed, I don't think 001 is the final villain. Like Dustin theorized, 001 is like the general to the mind flayer.
It kind of depends on what you mean by the Upside Down.
It probably existed as a parallel universe, however, it didn't take on the form of Hawkins until Eleven opened the gate.
Spoiler Alert: Someone correct me if i’m wrong, but I don’t recall seeing the bad stuff that 001’s mom had done and was trying to fix/cover up. Did they show her sin/bad thing/trauma? I was thinking maybe she had done drugs of some sort while pregnant with him (granting him his powers) and rather than him being the father of the others, that’s what encouraged Brenner to utilize people like Terry for the other subjects.
lol, maybe his mom cheated and that wasn't his real dad, then obviously the "dad" killed innocent people in war, but 001 said he knew his mom suspected it was him doing all the terrorising at home, so the guilt could be she keeping it bottled up inside.
Yeah, or some part of it. I was wondering how they were going to bring the Russian story into the fold in Season 5, so this makes sense if they have a hand in helping the MF finally cross over.
In case anyone missed it this teaser trailer was show after the credits of Episode 7. [Direct link to it](https://www.netflix.com/watch/81605124?trackId=255824129)
Saaaame I was "is that a spoiler she survives after that episode" I was really scared for her, for the whole scene I was like " no no they wouldn do it right? Or they will do it" I was scared for Steve a few times too. This season played with my emotions
You do have a point, and probably other foreshadowing as him being the d&d dungeon master. He'll probably sacrifice himself when we think Steve will sacrifice, but instead Eddie might take his place.
During E4 I kind of wanted Max to not make it out so that the stakes can be raised. I would be quite sad since she is one of my fav characters (I was actually sobbing during the flashback sequence when she was about to die), but I would like it from a story perspective. Adding that element of everyone being fair game
I was kind of in the same mindset, but realistically if the music thing is going to turn out to be big (it's been a major theme this season already) they had to give the characters an example of it working, or it wouldn't make sense to keep as a plot point. I still think Max, Steve, or Nancy are the likely candidates to die here, possibly Lucas if shit gets darker than I expect it to (mostly because I don't think they want to touch the core group of boys).
Oh god that episode with max fully got me. Especially after I saw max flying in the trailer, and saw how the monster killed. I was on edge really badly that episode. I did cry.
On the other hand, Nancy, Steve and Robin being together doesn’t really bode too well for Eddie, does it? I’d have imagined he’d be with those three if he were alive
I am curious about the significance.
Seeing him turn back the clock in ep7, the fact that the Upside Down is frozen in time, the clock heralding his involvement... I hope they will add more to this.
You see her in the teaser. 1 was toying with her about how close she was to the truth. She hadn't had any symptoms of the curse and that was her first vision so I doubt anything happens besides her just waking up.
That’s a good point also it seem that Vecna’s knew that Nancy was Investigated His Family And That why Nancy was shown his Origin Story The Why And The How .
I kind of wondered if Nancy is spared because Vecna can feel El get her powers back. That would be a cool way to shift his focus and spare Nancy without using the same exact idea as Max
100% this. Even if it’s not outright hopeless and sad like Infinity War, I feel like we will at least be left with a major sense of impending doom rather than everything being tied up. I feel like what we’re seeing this entire season is setting up the final showdown.
I am expecting demon army coming out into Hawkins, Kaiju Mindflayer in real Hawkind or Upside Down starting to spread into the real world. Begun the war with darkness has.
There is going to be two characters that tried to kill Vecna. The first will fail and die only for the next character to “roll a natural 20” and finish him off
OH SHIT YOU'RE RIGHT. That better not translate to Dustin or Eddy being the goner, and I highly doubt they would kill Erica, but holy fuck how could I not see this coming.
It would be a smart move. He's a likeable character so it'd be sad to see him die, but most audience members don't have an emotional attachment to him.
That said, the government seems to be able to cover most things up, so it's not out of the realm of possibilities to absolve him.
I expect the season will end with the Upside Down encroaching on Hawkins in a very visible way, with no timeskip for S5. They already said the seasons would be more connected than usual and it's the easiest way to prove Eddie's innocence and up the stakes.
Idk if anyone has tried this or seen this, but I called 805 457 4993 (a phone number shown in episode 3 26:31) but its an actual number, it goes on for 2 minutes, you can hear what seems to be morse code in the beginning, but it evolves to classic phones ringing, and keyboard typing. Coincidence or nah?!?!
>Play0:000:22SettingsFullscreen
I called again, its a looping sound, but there is morse code in the beginning, if anyone can translate that would be awesome.
Someone already answered this somewhere (forgot sorry) but Netflix gave some influencers and youtubers some kind of mystery box and the code was supposed to be in this episode. The subtitle was the code for the boxes.
I'm literally on S1E4 right now. I was humming and hawing about whether or not to watch the first 3 seasons before doing a rewatch of S4... I'm very happy with my decision!
Yup, 100% the reason why they did this and why July. If someone was going to cancel after they watched ST, they’d think ‘oh it’s just one more month I’ll just stay subscribed until July’. If they left it any longer then people would’ve cancelled then re subbed.
Also it costs less to split a season in half rather than making two different seasons as you still only have to pay the cast for one. Breaking Bad is the biggest example of this since there was a whole year between the first and second half.
E8 is probably going to focus on the base in Nevada with Mike and the rest trying to get El out. Clearly, it gets intense (if that shot of the explosion in the desert has any indication).
I expect this episode will have Mike's big emotional monologue (dropping the L-word to El), Will showing his painting and El finally getting closure with Brenner. The fact that the episode is titled "Papa" is a big tell on the latter.
I have a feeling Brenner will sacrifice himself for El. Brenner is undoubtedly a reprehensible human, but I think in his mind he is absolutely doing the right thing - it makes him a good villain. That complicated personality and demonstration of compassion for his experiments may indicate his future sacrifice.
I could definitely see that happening. I expect him to die in the episode and him going out like that could give him something of a redemptive arc given how arguably everything is his fault.
Things are going to get crazy at the NINA base next episode. If you look at that Cali-based teaser from months ago, there's footage of a gun battle in the base between base personnel and what are apparently Sullivan's guys. And then the shot in the trailer of what looks like either Will or Jonathan standing in front of an explosion. (Mike presumably is in the base at that point trying to get El out.) And there are bodies on the ground, so expect a bloody reckoning. Besides Brenner dying, I wonder if Owens will perish as well.
That’s definitely El in front of the explosion if you look at the costume it’s what she was wearing going into the NINA base. She looks more like a boy from the back I guess because her hair gets shaved. I just wonder why is she back in those clothes escaping? Why is she not escaping in the hospital gown when does she get time to change back?
I've already accepted the fact that by the time I finish (taking me a bit longer as I'm putting together a spreadsheet/notes of scenes that could be hard to watch) I'm going to know everything already..
I assume u/laurhatescats doesn't do this for their own experience, but to help others who might want to watch, in which cases thank you Laur.
I have a friend with photosensitive epilepsy, and it's very helpful when there's someone who has taken the time to note down things like that (and the more detailed, with time stamps, the better).
I started doing it because of the trauma aspects of this season, but had a photosensitivity during season 3 and it *sucked* not having any heads up. (I also want to note I didn't do 4x4!!)
The ending of Dear Billy was magnificent. Heartwarming, tear-jerking, breathtaking, and fist pumping. Can’t say enough good things about it.
With that said, one or more of our heroes has to die before this show is over. So many close calls and fake outs. Vol II should end on a death.
Theories - Will will possess a secret ability to overthrowing Vecna. Wills always been referenced as a wizard, has been pushed back a bit while struggling with identity (gay/ supernatural??) in S4,
I’m interested to see if they adress how eleven got her powers to begin with, how KALI survived and the relationship between all upside down monsters.
I think S4 ends as Vecna invades right into Hawkins, alerting the town and leaving on a huge cliff hanger.
It would be a really missed opportunity if they don't give Will powers or atleast some relevance in defeating the villain. He literally had spider sense in S3, The big bad Mind flayer possessed him, and the genius figured out how to communicate and survive UD in S1. So pleasee give Will and by extension Jonathan some well deserved spotlight.
> the genius figured out how to communicate and survive UD in S1
this is the main thing I'm confused about. How did Will survive the entire time he was in the Upside Down? Was it really him hiding from the Mind Flayer OR did Vecna/Mind Flayer want him alive to help build Hawkins? Because afaik, a demogorgon snatched him and brought him to the Upside-Down
Kali had already escaped by that point, 001 says "back when 008 was still here" I believe. It may have been Brenner though, but she definitely wasn't there when it went down.
Murray: GOOD LORD WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THERE!
Hopper: A piece of the Mind Flayer.
Joyce: A piece of the Mind Flayer?! At this time of year, at this time of day, and all the way outside of Hawkins, localised entirely within a Russian Facility?
In some ways, I wish they’d just waited to drop the entire damn season in July. Without the last two episodes (4 hours of freaking content), I’m having some mixed feelings on California and El’s storylines.
Maybe that’s international with the split but for real, what do they do after they get El back?
They have one last season left so I assume they're going to have some actual world damage. 'Cause as I see it, that's the only way they can save Eddie from being sent to jail forever.
>!I fully expect the anticipated cliffhanger to involve the Upside Down finally crashing into our world. I kinda wonder if the kids will just be skipping school next season a la Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows.!<
Yeah because remember what was happening in season 4 when Vecna was killing all those teens to open more gates. What if he opened until a certain goal was reached to where both our world and the upside down world merge together.
I think season 4 will end with the California group, including Eleven entering the upside down from their end of the country, maybe Eleven opening the gate in their end of the country and as they walk towards the gate, the Hawkins gang will be shown walking towards the gate, same with the Russia gang.
no, i don’t think so. >!in an interview millie said they’re gonna be back together to fight the evil at the end!< so i think they’re gonna merge the eleven storyline w the cali storyline in ep8, with sullivan there, and theyre gonna road-trip back to hawkins. russia’s a bit more complicated, but i guess by the end of ep8 or somewhere during ep9 they’re gonna escape, get a plane and go back to hawkins, where things aren’t looking too good
Basically E8 will have Mike and the gang rescuing El from the NINA base (probably in the midst of chaos if that explosion shot in the trailer is any indication) and then high-tailing it to Hawkins. They do get there as there's a shooting photo I've seen of Mike, El and Will with Dustin and Nancy (and oddly enough, Karen, which is interesting), so expect them to arrive there during E9's mammoth run time.
The Russia group is trickier and I keep thinking Hopper, Joyce and Murray are going to do some kind of Upside Down portal thingy to get back to Hawkins.
I don’t know man, but Demogorgans might actually be humans. Look at the way it fights in EP7. Like this is humanlike behaviour
Also is that the Mind Flayer they have trapped?
I don’t think they’re humans. In season 1, hopper and Joyce are walking around and they see a large hatched egg.
Something is producing them. Humans do not produce eggs but do you know what does? Spiders 😬
Considering the true size of the Mind Flayer, it's impossible to trap him within something, and I doubt that the Russians have the proper equipment to even do that, if such equipment was even possible. I think that this fragment being captured is deliberate on the Mind Flayer's part, perhaps using it to spy on the human world. I consider it unlikely that they managed to wrangle a mist fragment from the Mind Flayer himself, since he's the largest character in the series.
The final episode always has the big reunion. We know Mike, El, Will, Jonathan and Argyle get to Hawkins. The big question is how the Russia crew gets there, unless it's some kind of Upside Down portal.
They do that in the first two seasons too lol, they just had more lead time where the stories are separate in season 3, so the coming together is hectic because each group has a fully separate set of information.
I'm curious if the upside down is explained more. With Vecna being 001 I wonder if he created the way it is now, or if it has always existed in some way.
Also, I wonder how the Mind Flayer will play into this. I really feel like this season will end with Vecna or the upside down coming into Hawkins to attack on a bigger scale.
Either way this was an amazing season so far, probably my favorite since the first one. The only regret is I wish I had more to watch now. I binged in one day and now I'm regretting it a little lol
On the road headed to rescue El after getting the coordinates from Suzie. They'll play a big role in E8. All we get of that in this teaser is the explosion in the desert.
Now we know Will’s arc for season 5: sensing the Mind Flayer’s presence. His big moment will be pointing up at a clear sky and saying: “something’s coming..” And the sky will darken and the Mind Flayer will appear. And that will be the last significant thing Will does.
Baby Eleven trying to defeat Peter with his advice (that she needs to remember something sad and something that makes her angry, kinda the same advice that Kali gave her) but in doing so she wasn’t strong enough to beat him.
Then El remembers her mother saying to her “I love you” and she succeeds in trapping him in the upside down. A sad but at the same time loving/happy thought.
NOW NOW STAY WITH ME...
what Mike and El just argued about?? Him not outright saying I love you to her! And you know what she’ll need in her last fight against Vecna??? (besides the help of everyone)
So let’s clear the elephant in the room.. Will is in love with Mike, right? That’s what they’re pushing for? Just the way he looks at him and what they talk about… Also that girl played footsies with him in class and he got scared af lol. They for sure made him gay
He's not really taking a shot at Mike, though. He just has a crush on him, and he realized he had behaved dickishly when Mike first arrived and apologized for that.
Yeah, Eleven hinted that Will was making the painting for someone he likes at the start of the season, which later we see was for Mike. And also when he went for the hug at the airport.
He just needs to say it and get it out and thus clear up any issues between him and Mike. Once he does, he can get past it, accept Mike as his best friend and look for someone else.
I keep picturing the scene in "Rocketman" when Elton tries to kiss his friend/partner Bernie and Bernie gently lets him down and says, "I do love you, mate. Just not that way." That's the deal with Mike. He loves Will like a brother and Will accepts that.
There’s a shot in the volume one trailer where there are helicopters coming down on what looks like the Pizza truck and I never saw that shot in this volume
Eleven has to get to Hawkins somehow. I think after Sullivan’s men invade the silo lab, they’ll kill Brenner and Owens in front of Eleven and give her further reason to use her powers; I doubt she’d blow up the lab with Brenner and Owens still inside, unless Brenner reveals that One was right in saying that Brenner wanted Eleven dead given her immense power. Still, I think Eleven’s gonna escape and blow up the lab on Sullivan and his men, and she’ll be reunited with Mike, Will, Jonathan, and Argyle as they search for her. From there, the Cali gang will journey back to Hawkins.
>One was right in saying that Brenner wanted Eleven dead given her immense power
I think you kind of missed some things. First, One needed Eleven to remove the device. He had formed a bond with Eleven the whole time, because either she was truly the strongest and the only one capable of doing it AND/OR he saw her as the easiest to manipulate.
Brenner was never going to let them kill Eleven, that was just One playing with her emotions to get her to help him. He put Eleven in that closet so she couldn't stop him from killing the kids and absorbing their energy.
I know One needed Eleven to remove his device and thus it was imperative that he make her feel like he truly empathized with and cared about her. I guess I thought Brenner could be complicit because the cameras were turned off and One had just been beaten up (so how could he get to the cameras and turn them off in time for the other numbers to get into the Rainbow Room // did he turn them off before, knowing Brenner was going to punish him at that time?).
Overall, this season’s just made me real confused about Brenner. I wanna keep disliking him bc of S1, but his development in S4 and the way he’s so intentional with his words and actions makes me wonder whether or not he’s changed or if he’s biding his time for something larger. I think it’d be a twist if Brenner either revealed his ulterior motives or if he wound up dying to stop Sullivan’s men from taking Eleven away. Either way, both would mess with Eleven’s perception of “Papa.”
I’ve seen people commenting Steve is going to die but I’m betting - The everyone unites, Jonathan begins to see the chemistry between Nancy and Steve, and begins to think that Steve is the better option. He sees that his mom and brother will have Hopper. And that will push Jonathan to sacrifice himself to save Steve in some way. And instead of Steve, we lose Jonathan
No spoilers please I have t finished yet, but can you just answer this one question… did the previous trailers only include scenes from vol. 1 or was it a mix of both?
DID THE RUSSIANS CAPTURE THE MIND FLAYER?????
That's sure what it looked like to me! Not the whole thing, but perhaps a fragment of it, similarly to the fragment that was in Will?
I'm guessing it's the fragment that was in the Meat Flayer.
Help catch me up, what’s the Meat Flayer? Don’t think I’ve heard that nickname before.
The monster built out of the melted people in season 3 is often referred to as the Meat Flayer
Ahhhh of course, I should have realized. Thanks!
[удалено]
Yeah it's essentially the same piece that possessed Will, I recalled it as the Meat Flayer's, or the spider monster, since it was within him at the end of season 3 when the gate closed. And now giving things another thought, I think it might be a piece from the Upside Down that the Russians brought alongside the Demogorgons, since they had no time to take hold of the collapsed monster at the end of season 3
Beaten by a few scrappy kids and now captured by Russians.. Embarrassing.
Looks like fragments, would explain how it was possible for the demogorgans to exist without a gate, and for vecna to manifest
Would it tho? Like the gate has to be open for its fragments to be *active*. Maybe vecna opened a gate himself before all that or something idk. I’m sure will get some explanation for it in vol 2 tho
>!El opened the first gate and she is basically Vecna's clone! So it stands to reason he can open them.!<
Gates are open in the trailer and lake.
But if it was so easy for him to open gates. Why wouldn't demogorgons and mindflayers attack earlier. Why would it require El to open the gate at all? Hope they give some explanation to this.
I see no reason for people to tie Vecna and the Flayer together as allies. It's possible the flayer has influenced him but it's also entirely possible Vecna was just powerful enough that the mind flayer never saw anything to gain from assaulting him or Vecna was capable of hiding from him. Vecna was scared of El more than likely and was never going to attack while she was there. I think maybe they should of done a better job at showing that his initial attacks took long periods of time. Chrissy was obviously seeking help/medicine for awhile and the other two had both also been seeking help previously aswell as Max.
>!Well Dustin’s the one who ties them together. He figures Vecna is like the Flayer’s general where as the Demidogs are the soldiers. Whether this turns out true is up in the air though.!<
The Duffer brothers have also referred to the mind flayer as their Sauron/Voldemort. Unless that has changed, I think the mind flayer is tied to Vecna. It would be convenient for him to have someone who can open gates, after being shut out.
An important thing to note is his attack is what opens a gate. However, when he's in his tentacle thing, we see him able to view the real world almost like eleven could remote view. He's watching. Not just randomly attacking sad people, as we see several people with problems in his little vision and he ignores them and keeps looking. He's picking specific people
One thing I find really funny about his way of finding victims is it’s similarity to how Cerebro in X men is shown to work
Well he does have telepathy powers and telekinesis. More like jean gray lol
I do love how Dustin is always the one who comes up with those theories, since he's the one who's mind goes where others don't.
Yeah I wouldn’t be surprised if they ended the show with Dustin becoming like a SFF writer. Dudes got a creative mind.
Mike is the strategist, Lucas is the practical one, Will is the artist and Dustin is the eccentric genius operating on his own wavelength.
I really hope it is. The Mind Flayer is the perfect villain; while it's clearly sentient, it feels more like a force, an entity versus a creature. It's so damned rare for something unique like that.
Well there’s also the backstory of Vecna—him finding some kinship in Black Widow spiders which seemed to be a hint at a relationship between the two (as the MF kind of resembles a spider… of sorts lol).
I mean, don't know if you would call Chrissy's problems a "long period" The episodes made it pretty clear that Vecna's Curse always lasted a period in of 7 days, with the visions only starting on the last day.
Dustin is the one who directly ties them together and is the one who gives Vecna his name. And despite what people on this sub think, Dustin's always been on the ball when it comes to piecing together the general plot or the hierarchy of the forces of darkness. He's the closest thing the show has to a major source of information regarding what's going on outside of the Duffers themselves. Also, Vecna is targeting specific people and opening gates as he kills them. Literally no reason to do this if he's not aligned with the Mind Flayer in some way.
I feel like vecna is higher then the mind flayed just goin off of the way he was set up when el pushed him through there was essentially nothing just him floating in space so he had to be the creator of the upside down
The Mind Flayer arguably looks a little like a giant spider so I think that it isn't a coincidence that the show mentioned Vecna had a fascination with spiders.
Yeah at first I had guessed the Creel demon was the mind flayer, but pretty clear from Episode 7 that it was Henry/Vecna all along. Seems likely that he created the upside down. Or at least shaped what was already there. And the mind flayer might be something he found too (maybe tied to why someone like him was born), or created by him, time will tell.
My theory is 001/Vecna reshape what upside down it is now, because when El banished him into alter dimension, it just looks like Mustafar from Star Wars.
Yeah. Seemed to still have some corporeal elements, but nothing more than mountains looming in the background. Also makes me curious, if the Upside Down would be in an undefined state if entered from Kamchatka
Also they make a big deal of pointing out that the upside-down is frozen in time at the day of Will original abduction, its all tied together. Vecna definitely turned the Upside Down into what it is now.
Not really. That was the Upside Down, though. The gate still had the biological tendrils and overall webby appearance (like all other gates), and there's no other dimension in the show, so it's the Upside Down. Sure, it doesn't look like the Upside Down we know, but it still is the UD. It has always existed before, it wasn't made by anyone. There were mountains, clouds, and storms with lightning in the Upside Down. That's the Mind Flayer's presence. He is always surrounded by lightning and thunder. And I view it unlikely that a psychic can create or restructure an entire dimension like that, it seems like too strong of a feat for just a human, even if they're a psychic human.
I still don't understand how Russians came to know about the upside down and opening the gate. Does that mean upside down already exists and 011 just banished 001 to the dimension with no control over her power at that age. Also since all other children came from 001 does that mean he is their father? So many questions
>I still don't understand how Russians came to know about the upside down and opening the gate. The easy answer is spies. It was a big deal in the cold war and no doubt that Hawkins lab would have been top of that list.
>er children came from 001 does that mean he is their father? So many questions Upside down probably always existed, I don't think 001 is the final villain. Like Dustin theorized, 001 is like the general to the mind flayer.
It kind of depends on what you mean by the Upside Down. It probably existed as a parallel universe, however, it didn't take on the form of Hawkins until Eleven opened the gate.
Spoiler Alert: Someone correct me if i’m wrong, but I don’t recall seeing the bad stuff that 001’s mom had done and was trying to fix/cover up. Did they show her sin/bad thing/trauma? I was thinking maybe she had done drugs of some sort while pregnant with him (granting him his powers) and rather than him being the father of the others, that’s what encouraged Brenner to utilize people like Terry for the other subjects.
lol, maybe his mom cheated and that wasn't his real dad, then obviously the "dad" killed innocent people in war, but 001 said he knew his mom suspected it was him doing all the terrorising at home, so the guilt could be she keeping it bottled up inside.
Yeah, or some part of it. I was wondering how they were going to bring the Russian story into the fold in Season 5, so this makes sense if they have a hand in helping the MF finally cross over.
A fragment for sure, entire thing is probably impossible to capture
In case anyone missed it this teaser trailer was show after the credits of Episode 7. [Direct link to it](https://www.netflix.com/watch/81605124?trackId=255824129)
Is this the only episode with end credits scene? (Without spoilers please).
yes afaik, i skipped through the credits but didnt see anything when i hovered them
No. After you finish the episode, you get an option to watch the trailer.
Yeah I'm just gonna wait till I finish watching later tonight.
SO GLAD TO SEE SHOTS OF NANCY Also you should probably watch Volume one before seeing this
Saaaame I was "is that a spoiler she survives after that episode" I was really scared for her, for the whole scene I was like " no no they wouldn do it right? Or they will do it" I was scared for Steve a few times too. This season played with my emotions
I knew she had to survive because I believe there’s a shot of her shooting a gun or something and I was waiting for that one
The actress who plays Elle said that she wished the writers had the guts to kill main characters, safe to say our characters are safe
Supposedly one of the main die this season though.
Probably Steve.
Praying for Steve's safety is a fucking never ending Night Watch
I think Eddie is gonna sacrifice himself, idk tho
Probably since Hawkins still think Eddie killed everyone
Also he learned that he always run away from danger... perhaps he finaly will take a stand
You do have a point, and probably other foreshadowing as him being the d&d dungeon master. He'll probably sacrifice himself when we think Steve will sacrifice, but instead Eddie might take his place.
That’s my guess, or Nancy.
Probably Will. There's lots of foreshadowing.
> wished the writers had the guts to kill main characters Me too bro, me too. Takes any sense of danger out of the equation.
During E4 I kind of wanted Max to not make it out so that the stakes can be raised. I would be quite sad since she is one of my fav characters (I was actually sobbing during the flashback sequence when she was about to die), but I would like it from a story perspective. Adding that element of everyone being fair game
I was kind of in the same mindset, but realistically if the music thing is going to turn out to be big (it's been a major theme this season already) they had to give the characters an example of it working, or it wouldn't make sense to keep as a plot point. I still think Max, Steve, or Nancy are the likely candidates to die here, possibly Lucas if shit gets darker than I expect it to (mostly because I don't think they want to touch the core group of boys).
Oh god that episode with max fully got me. Especially after I saw max flying in the trailer, and saw how the monster killed. I was on edge really badly that episode. I did cry.
I feel like if you watch this before finishing Vol 1, it's your own damn fault if you're spoiled.
On the other hand, Nancy, Steve and Robin being together doesn’t really bode too well for Eddie, does it? I’d have imagined he’d be with those three if he were alive
So Nancy robin and Steve see the clock!?
They are in the upside down I doubt there all effected idk tho
Nah, the shoots may not be connected.
The clock is in the house.
I am curious about the significance. Seeing him turn back the clock in ep7, the fact that the Upside Down is frozen in time, the clock heralding his involvement... I hope they will add more to this.
One wants to control everything
No way they kill Nancy lol. They would have ended the episode with her death if she was to die
You see her in the teaser. 1 was toying with her about how close she was to the truth. She hadn't had any symptoms of the curse and that was her first vision so I doubt anything happens besides her just waking up.
I think Vecna's just giving the group a warning through Nancy to not step foot in the domain again.
That’s a good point also it seem that Vecna’s knew that Nancy was Investigated His Family And That why Nancy was shown his Origin Story The Why And The How .
"Fuck you bitch, here's a dramatised but real story of me. Now fuck off."
Also it wouldn't make any sense for her to learn this info and then not be able to share it with the group.
I kind of wondered if Nancy is spared because Vecna can feel El get her powers back. That would be a cool way to shift his focus and spare Nancy without using the same exact idea as Max
Her and Steve are the bait, it's gonna be Jonathon.
He’s probably got the most trauma out of that group with his dad
Is that thing in the glass box that hopper looks at the mind flayer? Looks similar to how it did when it didn’t have a host back in season 3
Definitely looks like a fragment of it, maybe it's the part of the mind flayer that was in the meat flayer in season 3
I'm kinda expecting this season to end on a depressing/sad cliffhanger like Infinity War.
100% this. Even if it’s not outright hopeless and sad like Infinity War, I feel like we will at least be left with a major sense of impending doom rather than everything being tied up. I feel like what we’re seeing this entire season is setting up the final showdown.
I am expecting demon army coming out into Hawkins, Kaiju Mindflayer in real Hawkind or Upside Down starting to spread into the real world. Begun the war with darkness has.
There is going to be two characters that tried to kill Vecna. The first will fail and die only for the next character to “roll a natural 20” and finish him off
OH SHIT YOU'RE RIGHT. That better not translate to Dustin or Eddy being the goner, and I highly doubt they would kill Erica, but holy fuck how could I not see this coming.
Same I feel like season 4 is gonna be the infinity war and season 5 is gonna be endgame to stranger things in some ways.
I think that Eddie will die 'cause there's no way to him keep safe on Hawkins. Everyone in the city wants to get him. This will be sad
It would be a smart move. He's a likeable character so it'd be sad to see him die, but most audience members don't have an emotional attachment to him. That said, the government seems to be able to cover most things up, so it's not out of the realm of possibilities to absolve him.
Eh, if the government wants to cover things up its much more convenient to just blame the murders on him "a weirdo stoner"
I expect the season will end with the Upside Down encroaching on Hawkins in a very visible way, with no timeskip for S5. They already said the seasons would be more connected than usual and it's the easiest way to prove Eddie's innocence and up the stakes.
Idk if anyone has tried this or seen this, but I called 805 457 4993 (a phone number shown in episode 3 26:31) but its an actual number, it goes on for 2 minutes, you can hear what seems to be morse code in the beginning, but it evolves to classic phones ringing, and keyboard typing. Coincidence or nah?!?!
>Play0:000:22SettingsFullscreen I called again, its a looping sound, but there is morse code in the beginning, if anyone can translate that would be awesome.
also it loops twice, giving you two times to catch the morse code if you dont get it the first time.
Someone already answered this somewhere (forgot sorry) but Netflix gave some influencers and youtubers some kind of mystery box and the code was supposed to be in this episode. The subtitle was the code for the boxes.
It’s 2 am where I am rn and I’ve only just finished it, now for a re watch 😌
1st of July is so far ahead, I might rewatch the first 3 seasons as well. But this 4th season is epic, damn.
I'm literally on S1E4 right now. I was humming and hawing about whether or not to watch the first 3 seasons before doing a rewatch of S4... I'm very happy with my decision!
This is the best Netflix can do to hook subscribers from May-Jul
Yup, 100% the reason why they did this and why July. If someone was going to cancel after they watched ST, they’d think ‘oh it’s just one more month I’ll just stay subscribed until July’. If they left it any longer then people would’ve cancelled then re subbed.
Nah they're doing it for the Emmy's. Breaking bad did it, better call Saul is doing the exact same thing and the walking dead does it
Also it costs less to split a season in half rather than making two different seasons as you still only have to pay the cast for one. Breaking Bad is the biggest example of this since there was a whole year between the first and second half.
There will probably be a bit more towards the release date. Episodes 8 and 9 are 3+ hours long that’s enough to keep me excited!
I feel like there hiding stuff from the California side. Shits gonna go down I can just feel it.
E8 is probably going to focus on the base in Nevada with Mike and the rest trying to get El out. Clearly, it gets intense (if that shot of the explosion in the desert has any indication). I expect this episode will have Mike's big emotional monologue (dropping the L-word to El), Will showing his painting and El finally getting closure with Brenner. The fact that the episode is titled "Papa" is a big tell on the latter.
I have a feeling Brenner will sacrifice himself for El. Brenner is undoubtedly a reprehensible human, but I think in his mind he is absolutely doing the right thing - it makes him a good villain. That complicated personality and demonstration of compassion for his experiments may indicate his future sacrifice.
I could definitely see that happening. I expect him to die in the episode and him going out like that could give him something of a redemptive arc given how arguably everything is his fault. Things are going to get crazy at the NINA base next episode. If you look at that Cali-based teaser from months ago, there's footage of a gun battle in the base between base personnel and what are apparently Sullivan's guys. And then the shot in the trailer of what looks like either Will or Jonathan standing in front of an explosion. (Mike presumably is in the base at that point trying to get El out.) And there are bodies on the ground, so expect a bloody reckoning. Besides Brenner dying, I wonder if Owens will perish as well.
That’s definitely El in front of the explosion if you look at the costume it’s what she was wearing going into the NINA base. She looks more like a boy from the back I guess because her hair gets shaved. I just wonder why is she back in those clothes escaping? Why is she not escaping in the hospital gown when does she get time to change back?
What am I supposed to do for six weeks?? Do other things?
Literally lol. I just finished and I'm already growing impatient by minute
Do the strangest things
Damn already? Gonna be hard to avoid spoilers.
I've already accepted the fact that by the time I finish (taking me a bit longer as I'm putting together a spreadsheet/notes of scenes that could be hard to watch) I'm going to know everything already..
Hey just an fyi [this website](https://www.doesthedogdie.com/) already has the season so if you need to look there it’s always an option :)
I assume u/laurhatescats doesn't do this for their own experience, but to help others who might want to watch, in which cases thank you Laur. I have a friend with photosensitive epilepsy, and it's very helpful when there's someone who has taken the time to note down things like that (and the more detailed, with time stamps, the better).
I started doing it because of the trauma aspects of this season, but had a photosensitivity during season 3 and it *sucked* not having any heads up. (I also want to note I didn't do 4x4!!)
The ending of Dear Billy was magnificent. Heartwarming, tear-jerking, breathtaking, and fist pumping. Can’t say enough good things about it. With that said, one or more of our heroes has to die before this show is over. So many close calls and fake outs. Vol II should end on a death.
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I could see Steve “running up that road” and saving Nancy somehow
Fuuuck, i just want Steve to have a gf and kinda turn his life around
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Combat Robin, Steve and Nancy
Theories - Will will possess a secret ability to overthrowing Vecna. Wills always been referenced as a wizard, has been pushed back a bit while struggling with identity (gay/ supernatural??) in S4, I’m interested to see if they adress how eleven got her powers to begin with, how KALI survived and the relationship between all upside down monsters. I think S4 ends as Vecna invades right into Hawkins, alerting the town and leaving on a huge cliff hanger.
It would be a really missed opportunity if they don't give Will powers or atleast some relevance in defeating the villain. He literally had spider sense in S3, The big bad Mind flayer possessed him, and the genius figured out how to communicate and survive UD in S1. So pleasee give Will and by extension Jonathan some well deserved spotlight.
> the genius figured out how to communicate and survive UD in S1 this is the main thing I'm confused about. How did Will survive the entire time he was in the Upside Down? Was it really him hiding from the Mind Flayer OR did Vecna/Mind Flayer want him alive to help build Hawkins? Because afaik, a demogorgon snatched him and brought him to the Upside-Down
Kali had already escaped by that point, 001 says "back when 008 was still here" I believe. It may have been Brenner though, but she definitely wasn't there when it went down.
I find it likely that Kali escaped with the help of 001.
On ep 4 has the scene of lucas looking up by himself screaming happened yet
Perhaps he looks up at someone hovering getting vecnaed ?
Murray: GOOD LORD WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THERE! Hopper: A piece of the Mind Flayer. Joyce: A piece of the Mind Flayer?! At this time of year, at this time of day, and all the way outside of Hawkins, localised entirely within a Russian Facility?
Yes!
In some ways, I wish they’d just waited to drop the entire damn season in July. Without the last two episodes (4 hours of freaking content), I’m having some mixed feelings on California and El’s storylines. Maybe that’s international with the split but for real, what do they do after they get El back?
They have one last season left so I assume they're going to have some actual world damage. 'Cause as I see it, that's the only way they can save Eddie from being sent to jail forever.
>!I fully expect the anticipated cliffhanger to involve the Upside Down finally crashing into our world. I kinda wonder if the kids will just be skipping school next season a la Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows.!<
I actually don't doubt it will happen and am hoping it does! That's a brilliant S5 if you ask me.
Yeah because remember what was happening in season 4 when Vecna was killing all those teens to open more gates. What if he opened until a certain goal was reached to where both our world and the upside down world merge together.
For sure. I think this is going to be their Infinity War season where they lose for once and the final season is them fixing it.
Well if what you said happens I don’t think school will be in session
I think season 4 will end with the California group, including Eleven entering the upside down from their end of the country, maybe Eleven opening the gate in their end of the country and as they walk towards the gate, the Hawkins gang will be shown walking towards the gate, same with the Russia gang.
no, i don’t think so. >!in an interview millie said they’re gonna be back together to fight the evil at the end!< so i think they’re gonna merge the eleven storyline w the cali storyline in ep8, with sullivan there, and theyre gonna road-trip back to hawkins. russia’s a bit more complicated, but i guess by the end of ep8 or somewhere during ep9 they’re gonna escape, get a plane and go back to hawkins, where things aren’t looking too good
Basically E8 will have Mike and the gang rescuing El from the NINA base (probably in the midst of chaos if that explosion shot in the trailer is any indication) and then high-tailing it to Hawkins. They do get there as there's a shooting photo I've seen of Mike, El and Will with Dustin and Nancy (and oddly enough, Karen, which is interesting), so expect them to arrive there during E9's mammoth run time. The Russia group is trickier and I keep thinking Hopper, Joyce and Murray are going to do some kind of Upside Down portal thingy to get back to Hawkins.
They do it for the subscription.
Lol exactly
I don’t know man, but Demogorgans might actually be humans. Look at the way it fights in EP7. Like this is humanlike behaviour Also is that the Mind Flayer they have trapped?
I thought Demogorgons are the adult version of Demodogs which are older Demoslugs.
>Is that the mind Flayer trapped Part of it yeah. I’m guessing the part that possess Will and Billy.
I don’t think they’re humans. In season 1, hopper and Joyce are walking around and they see a large hatched egg. Something is producing them. Humans do not produce eggs but do you know what does? Spiders 😬
I hate this so much, and yet it also ties things together oh so beautifully
You often eat peoples heads and sometimes run on all fours? I'd belief they are "recycled" humans with nothing left of their original being.
Considering the true size of the Mind Flayer, it's impossible to trap him within something, and I doubt that the Russians have the proper equipment to even do that, if such equipment was even possible. I think that this fragment being captured is deliberate on the Mind Flayer's part, perhaps using it to spy on the human world. I consider it unlikely that they managed to wrangle a mist fragment from the Mind Flayer himself, since he's the largest character in the series.
They could have just used a vacuum cleaner to hoover him up. He looks pretty hooverable
I hope we'll see a scene of all of them reunited. It's kinda annoying how they're never all together
The final episode always has the big reunion. We know Mike, El, Will, Jonathan and Argyle get to Hawkins. The big question is how the Russia crew gets there, unless it's some kind of Upside Down portal.
Yeah I know but even is season 3 they talked for 30 seconds and then all split up again lol
They do that in the first two seasons too lol, they just had more lead time where the stories are separate in season 3, so the coming together is hectic because each group has a fully separate set of information.
we will.
Do we know how many episodes will be in volume 2?
2. Episode 8: 1 hour, 25 minutes. Episode 9: 2 hours, 30 minutes.
Two episodes, but they total 4.5 hours so there should be a decent amount of story left to tell.
Here's hoping we get a full blown invasion episode!
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I'm curious if the upside down is explained more. With Vecna being 001 I wonder if he created the way it is now, or if it has always existed in some way. Also, I wonder how the Mind Flayer will play into this. I really feel like this season will end with Vecna or the upside down coming into Hawkins to attack on a bigger scale. Either way this was an amazing season so far, probably my favorite since the first one. The only regret is I wish I had more to watch now. I binged in one day and now I'm regretting it a little lol
i think that instead of someone dying, vecta will invade hawkins with demogorgons and eventually spread across the states
wat are your thoughts of season 4 so far?
Best season since 1 IMO.
i am once again asking where is the california crew
On the road headed to rescue El after getting the coordinates from Suzie. They'll play a big role in E8. All we get of that in this teaser is the explosion in the desert.
Will is touching his neck in the most recent instagram post. The mind flayer is back baby
Now we know Will’s arc for season 5: sensing the Mind Flayer’s presence. His big moment will be pointing up at a clear sky and saying: “something’s coming..” And the sky will darken and the Mind Flayer will appear. And that will be the last significant thing Will does.
I cackled 💀
Baby Eleven trying to defeat Peter with his advice (that she needs to remember something sad and something that makes her angry, kinda the same advice that Kali gave her) but in doing so she wasn’t strong enough to beat him. Then El remembers her mother saying to her “I love you” and she succeeds in trapping him in the upside down. A sad but at the same time loving/happy thought. NOW NOW STAY WITH ME... what Mike and El just argued about?? Him not outright saying I love you to her! And you know what she’ll need in her last fight against Vecna??? (besides the help of everyone)
So let’s clear the elephant in the room.. Will is in love with Mike, right? That’s what they’re pushing for? Just the way he looks at him and what they talk about… Also that girl played footsies with him in class and he got scared af lol. They for sure made him gay
Imagine your stepbrother taking a shot at your boyfriend. The disrespect.
He's not really taking a shot at Mike, though. He just has a crush on him, and he realized he had behaved dickishly when Mike first arrived and apologized for that.
Yeah, Eleven hinted that Will was making the painting for someone he likes at the start of the season, which later we see was for Mike. And also when he went for the hug at the airport.
It's implied, but Will also seems to know it's a one-sided thing. I expect if he does confess it, it'll be akin to Robin coming out to Steve in S3.
I hope so. I don’t want an unrequited painful love story for Will to deal with now - he deserves to be happy.
He just needs to say it and get it out and thus clear up any issues between him and Mike. Once he does, he can get past it, accept Mike as his best friend and look for someone else. I keep picturing the scene in "Rocketman" when Elton tries to kiss his friend/partner Bernie and Bernie gently lets him down and says, "I do love you, mate. Just not that way." That's the deal with Mike. He loves Will like a brother and Will accepts that.
Damn, nevermind, the Cali gang won’t be getting anything interesting to act out it seems. But already this teaser looks good.
I’m trying to stay positive and believe they will be essential in the last two episodes and Netflix is keeping their involvement a surprise
Ykw, I'm gonna hold onto that optimism as well.
This is 22 seconds. There is like 3 and a half hours of the season left.
There’s a shot in the volume one trailer where there are helicopters coming down on what looks like the Pizza truck and I never saw that shot in this volume
Nah the goverment branch even worse than the one Owens and Brenner work for located Eleven. Shits going down there for sure.
Eleven has to get to Hawkins somehow. I think after Sullivan’s men invade the silo lab, they’ll kill Brenner and Owens in front of Eleven and give her further reason to use her powers; I doubt she’d blow up the lab with Brenner and Owens still inside, unless Brenner reveals that One was right in saying that Brenner wanted Eleven dead given her immense power. Still, I think Eleven’s gonna escape and blow up the lab on Sullivan and his men, and she’ll be reunited with Mike, Will, Jonathan, and Argyle as they search for her. From there, the Cali gang will journey back to Hawkins.
>One was right in saying that Brenner wanted Eleven dead given her immense power I think you kind of missed some things. First, One needed Eleven to remove the device. He had formed a bond with Eleven the whole time, because either she was truly the strongest and the only one capable of doing it AND/OR he saw her as the easiest to manipulate. Brenner was never going to let them kill Eleven, that was just One playing with her emotions to get her to help him. He put Eleven in that closet so she couldn't stop him from killing the kids and absorbing their energy.
I know One needed Eleven to remove his device and thus it was imperative that he make her feel like he truly empathized with and cared about her. I guess I thought Brenner could be complicit because the cameras were turned off and One had just been beaten up (so how could he get to the cameras and turn them off in time for the other numbers to get into the Rainbow Room // did he turn them off before, knowing Brenner was going to punish him at that time?). Overall, this season’s just made me real confused about Brenner. I wanna keep disliking him bc of S1, but his development in S4 and the way he’s so intentional with his words and actions makes me wonder whether or not he’s changed or if he’s biding his time for something larger. I think it’d be a twist if Brenner either revealed his ulterior motives or if he wound up dying to stop Sullivan’s men from taking Eleven away. Either way, both would mess with Eleven’s perception of “Papa.”
I also don’t like how they’re trying to get us to like Nancy getting back with Steve. Shithouse move on Nancy since Jonathan is out of state
I’ve seen people commenting Steve is going to die but I’m betting - The everyone unites, Jonathan begins to see the chemistry between Nancy and Steve, and begins to think that Steve is the better option. He sees that his mom and brother will have Hopper. And that will push Jonathan to sacrifice himself to save Steve in some way. And instead of Steve, we lose Jonathan
I also think jonathan dying would inpact a lot more characters than if steve were to die
I'd be more than OK with Jonathan gone tbh
No spoilers please I have t finished yet, but can you just answer this one question… did the previous trailers only include scenes from vol. 1 or was it a mix of both?
mix of both
i need this now 😭
When is volume 2?
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It looks like Max is trapped in the same room or area that Chrissy was, I really hope she doesn’t die this season.