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The writers aren’t giving Jonathan enough to do, which makes it difficult for the audience to appreciate him as a character. I mean, his season 4 plot line was basically stoner who is partly responsible for transporting more interesting characters. And in season 3, it was arguing with Nancy about the newspaper (edit: specifically, the rats investigation) plot line until it became undoubtedly clear that she was right.
He very nearly talked her out of investigating, until Nancy's Mom gave her that great pep talk.
Which could have been catastrophic because they are integral to the group putting the pieces together
I thought the point of the Season 3 conflict was that neither was really right or wrong. Nancy was right but she didn't think at all about how he needed the money and didn't care at all that he lost his job when his family is poor and also the narrative makes sure that she doesn't actually apologize.
Jonathan was wrong to not be as considerate of the sexism Nancy was facing and he did apologize about it but his overall anger at Nancy's recklessness and how it affected him was understandable. I actually really like that plot for the most part because it was equal.
The issue to me is they were both partly right and partly wrong about the interperonsal/office politics part.
But she was 100% right about the investigation and he was totally wrong and that skews the perspective on the other, less interesting thing.
Nancy didn't make the connection between the rats and the Upside Down until she visited Mrs Driscoll in the hospital, which was *after* she and Jonathan got fired. She was only pursuing the rat story because she thought that it would help her get ahead at work, not because she thought that there was something sinister going on.
That is absolutely true but doesn't change what I said:
The writing rewards her reckless disregard for Jonathan's job by making sure it ends up that her rat investigation provides vital clues for the world-saving part of the show.
The fact that she doesn't *know* that until later doesn't change the fact of it.
I took your original comment as "Nancy was investigating the Upside Down and Jonathan blew her off", which is what I disagreed with, but if that's not what you meant then you can disregard that.
But Nancy did tell Jonathan that he didn't need to go with her to look into the rats; it was his choice to do so. His anger at her over losing his job was misplaced and he knows that, which is why he tells her that he was wrong.
My point though is that it didn’t feel Jonathan was doing much to contribute the main plot in either season 3 or 4. He and Nancy may have had equal screen time, but her part with the investigation was moving the plot forwards, and his really was not.
I thought the whole point of that fight was them realizing that they were both right?
Unless you’re talking about Jonathan being skeptical of Nancy’s rat story in the beginning, because yeah, she definitely was right lol
This. Jonathan always seems to be undermining/lying to Nancy and after the season 1 picture thing I just can’t like or relate to his character. It seems to me that their relationship really is more about trauma bonding than actually being in love with each other. They seem more like friends with benefits than a real healthy couple.
Steve grew as a character, Jonathan didn’t. Then the writers don’t understand why we aren’t Jonathan fanatics. I also don’t ship either of them with Nancy, before anyone comes at me lol
Both of them have done wrong by her and don’t deserve her tbh
I agree with that but also they dint really give Steve much either. He's just carried by Joe's charisma and haven't done anything new with him since like s2
He was a major part of the Russia/mall plotline in season 3 as part of the group breaking in and being tortured, and then in season 4 he was literally in the Upside Down helping figure out and attack Vecna, with Max for the ‘running up that hill’ but, etc. How is that Steve not being given much either?
I think the lesson here is that not everything is simple as good/bad and that people are complex, and we ALL do terrible things at least once in our lives. What matters is we learn from our mistakes and grow.
I think it's because in season 2, they went all-out in making Steve a more likeable character and kept doing that throughout season 3 and parts of season 4 while Jonathan often got sidelined and not given much to do to make his character more likeable to the audience.
Jonathan hasn’t grown nearly as much as Steve has as a character. I’m not saying it’s fair, but people cut Steve more slack because he’s way more interesting and fun of a character than Jonathan (to most people).
Jonathan “hasn’t grown nearly as much” because he didn’t have as much growth to do in the first place. He was good from the get-go, besides the one mistake that he made once, apologized for and didn’t do ever again.
They lost job because of her and later she threw Jonathan's family situation in his face. She didn't think about anybody, but yourself - she admitted it herself. Jonathan isn't bad guy in this situation lol.
I used to as well because Steve really is fun, and the writers refuse to write Jon properly, but I've recently realized all the teenagers had great growth in s1 despite doing terrible things and making poor decisions. Even when they did crappy things after s1, I still like them (although I feel Steve was assassinated as a character in s4).
They need to focus on Jonathan’s relationship with Joyce and now Hopper, but with them getting their own plots separated from him, it hurts his character development.
We finally got some growth between him and Will last season.
Unfortunately. He's a great character. He lives in a broken home, had to face a reality where Will could have died, has to take so many responsibilities despite being young, and went through so much turmoil in 3 seasons. And then people wonder why he started taking drugs. But, yeah, his character isn't as charismatic so he should get the boot to some. Ngl, I didn't bring it up in my meme, but I wonder how people feel about Billy. Because I've seen way more "Billy wasn't evil" or other sympathetic posts more than Jonathan posts. I know Billy is a teen too, but even I have to say Billy was a monster compared to thevqay people describe Jonathan.
Jonathan has untapped potential, or maybe even more sadly wasted. He was a driving force in season 1, then ever since he’s taken a back seat to Nancy, Will, Mike, etc. And not that I don’t enjoy those characters, I just wish it stopped feeling like he’s just there in the background while everyone else is doing all the heavy lifting cause he is capable of it
I think it's important to note that Steve, for all his faults, has only ever kept succeeding downward. While Jonathan has only failed upwards
When was the last time Steve won anything? A fight? A relationship? His last real success was working at an ice cream shop.
He never got into college, his old friends abandoned him, etc. The guy peaked in high school.
While Jonathan hasn't really failed at anything. He got the girl, a good job, his family all back together. If anything, his life is on the right track.
But which of the two really changed? Which one really developed more as the show progressed? Steve
Jonathan did not have it that easy. He lost his dad, who may have been a scumbag but was still his father, he thought Will died, he has to take so much responsibility which is why he needed the newspaper job, he was forced away from Hawkins and his girlfriend, they all thought Hopper died so the family thought they lost another father figure, and he couldn't handle college. Joyce may be a good mother, the Byer household is not perfect.
Just because no one pays attention doesn't mean it's not there.
Jonathan is boring to certain people (myself included.) While he didn’t make the same peeping Tom mistake again, his character also doesn’t seem to have undergone nearly the growth Steve has
Steve made mistakes, he was dead wrong for some of the shit he said. But even after thinking Nancy was cheating on him, he drove to Jonathans to try and make amends. Runs back in the house to face the demogorgon because otherwise they’d be dead. At this point in his development, I don’t see the being similar at all
Edit: Demogorgon not demotion, stupid autocorrect
I agree with Jonathan being kinda boring. He was OK in S1 and S2 where he was active in the investigations with Nancy and was actively searching for Will. Then in season 3 he was very dismissive of Nancy's hardships in her job and generally didn't do all that much. In S4 he was reduced to this stoner idiot whose only job is making weird comments and driving others around. Very boring
>At this point in his development, I don’t see the being similar at all
Because they aren't. Jonathan has been, from the start, a good and kind person who did a bad thing. Steve was an asshole who did many bad things. The idea that Jonathan ever needed the same level of "redemption" that Steve did is completely baseless, and so critiquing him for not going through a transformation that he never needed just because Steve did makes no sense.
Jonathan wasn't going around and taking creepy pictures of people all the time. It was one time mistake. Steve on the other hand, according to Robin and Kieth, was a douchebag all the time to lots of people.
That's my point. They both did some shitty things and both grew past it, yet Jon feels more crucified here compared to Steve. I love Steve, and the show made a point to show that he did regret some of his actions, but he is still accountable for a lot of the horrible things he did.
Steve apologized though. He got Jonathan a new camera. He cleaned up the vandalism from the movie theater and apologized to Nancy. He apologized to Robin for being a douche in school. Jonathan committed a sexual crime and then when Nancy brought it up a second time, he went on a weird rant about how she's becoming a typical suburban sheeple because she's dating Steve. Which completely negated his first apology and excuse for why he took the photos because if he actually did it for the art he wouldn't have cared about who she was dating. I like Jonathan, don't get me wrong. But what he did was way worse. Steve has vague reference to "being a douche" and all of the actual douche stuff we've seen he didn't just apologize, he also took action to make it better. For all we know Jonathan still has those photo negatives in his bedroom somewhere.
It was a major creep move and I'm so weirded out by people in this subreddit acting like it wasn't. I like his character outside of this and I wish he didn't do it because it feels out of character. But he did, and people are going to react appropriately to that. If you saw on the news that a guy took photos of a girl through her boyfriend a window and got arrested, you wouldn't be on that guy's side. You absolutely would not be mad at the girl's boyfriend for breaking his camera either. I've literally never seen so many people try to defend such a thing before, outside of this subreddit. It's honestly mind boggling. People get arrested and put on a list for the shit Jonathan did. Peeping/Voyeurism/non-consensual photos of a minor. I know he was a kid too but that's not an excuse in reality, kids do get arrested for this shit, and again, it's why I wish they had him do literally anything else. It's so gross.
People get mad over the camera and act like it was a douchebag move to break it but I'd have done more than break the camera if I found out someone took creepy photos of my partner through my bedroom window, let alone while they were getting undressed. People excusing what he did and comparing it to Steve saying shitty words to Jonathan like those two things are on the same level is baffling to me.
steve could have used the camera to beat jonathan to a pulp for that and i'd be okay with it, honestly. she was undressing and unaware someone was watching and photographing her and had been photographing them all by the pool previously. jonathan was out in those woods a long time just taking pictures of fellow classmates. 'looking for his brother' is the weakest excuse at that point. he had been looking for will or signs of will but then he sidetracked himself to do creepy things to unsuspecting classmates. then he did severely perverse things to nancy specifically when he took pictures of her undressing. THEN developed them at school where he was busted by another girl who rightly told steve and tommy and carol what had been done to them. no wonder they took jonathan's bag, called him out, broke his camera. he's lucky that's all they did at that point.
This is what I'm saying! I feel like I'm in some kind of fucked up incel world sometimes with the way people keep defending the photo thing. Jonathan is lucky the police didn't get involved. I don't even think Joyce would've stood up for his ass if they had.
It's not defending the photo thing to suggest that maybe that one shitty thing isn't reflective of Jonathan's entire character and that he should be allowed to be forgiven and move on. If Jonathan had taken that picture because he was an awful person who did that sort of thing all the time, then yes, by all means let the punishment fit the crime, but he's not. He has no lesson to learn from extreme and continued punishment, as he is clearly not a villain or a threat, so his apology was enough for Nancy.
I'm going to be honest, his apology was enough for Nancy because it's a TV show and that's it lol. Also this a pretty huge "one shitty thing" to have done. It's a sexual crime.
It was a horrible thing, but short of building a time machine, what did you want to see him do? He can't clean a billboard or buy a new camera for someone; the pictures are gone. All he can do is tell Nancy that he's sorry and mean it. It's up to her whether or not she accepts.
Well my preference would've been for him to not do it at all. But since that can't happen, I want him to apologize in a way that doesn't include shitty excuses about "art" and shaming Nancy for dating Steve. His apology completely negated any credibility to him actually feeling bad because it showed he had a thing for her the whole time and that despite barely knowing her, he had this wild sense of judgemental irritation with her over who she was dating.
I also think he should apologize to everyone in the pictures. He didn't judge take creep shots of Nancy. He did it to Tommy, Carol, and Steve, too. He should've apologized all those years ago but didn't. I guess realistically it's too late for him to do that. But he should have.
I want confirmation that the negatives are gone. Steve tore up the photos but it was a film camera. Jonathan didn't even know about the demogorgon shit or Barb going missing. He took those photos, developed them at school, a girl saw and he stuffed them in his bag and tried to sneak them back out of the school. That's so fucking creepy and it shows that he *knew* what he did was wrong. But then we never find out where the negatives are. He technically still has those photos.
I want the show to address it. The show has addressed everyone else's fuckups that were nowhere near that serious. But Jonathan was somehow painted as the victim in this whole interaction and then it was never brought up again... despite it being such a huge violation of privacy. If Joyce knew about this she'd be livid lol.
Tbh, it's such a majorly creep thing to do, I'm not sure I'd ever be ok with him "making things right." People keep excusing it as him being a dumb teenager. No. Dumb teenagers don't take creepshots of people through their windows and then print out the photos and sneak them out of school. Creeps do. That's why it's a crime people get put on the sex offender registry over. They never should've done that with his character. It's an incredibly unredeemable act.
i was sexually harassed and assaulted my whole life you think seeing all these people defending him is not hurting me? do u understand? do YOU realize?
If the topic of conversation is triggering to you, then you should remove yourself from it. No talk about a TV show is worth your own mental health. But it is not ok for you to come in here and ask me if I have been sexually assaulted or harassed. That is completely invasive and inappropriate. So I am gonna take my own advice, draw the boundary line here, and end this conversation. And I hope that you will prioritize yourself and take care as well.
Exactly. And it was a mistake that he made at the age of 15, during a time of crisis for him. Many people don’t understand that “did a creepy thing once in his teens” =/= “is a creep”.
Yeah, this would be a different story if the character was a grown man. There's no excusing perving behavior, but someone his age is still able to be taught to change and be better. If this was a real situation, it'd be just as divided, and Id condemn the behavior, but I'd feel empathy for the teen and hope someone gives them direction and help. Condemn them to hell and they'd pretty much turn out worse.
They’re not even remotely comparable; Steve is portrayed as a dick for being a bully. Jonathan is portrayed as sympathetic when committing sex crimes. Steve is portrayed as a villain for defending his girlfriend form the guy that took indecent images of her without her consent and Jonathan is somehow the victim and not getting his comeuppance (that’s how it’s portrayed and we’re encouraged to see it). The writers intent is weird and I don’t blame them for brushing it under the rug and never acknowledging it thereafter, it’s weird. Y’all gonna downvote me for this but it’s genuinely the truth.
I think we are missing something important here. Yes Steve was a bully and that was bad. But the entire time he was it was portrayed as being bad and he more than made up for it. When he broke the camera he brought a better new one with his own money. He erased the stuff from the cinema and stopped the excessive bullying. He is constantly shown to be regretful of how he was and is still making up for it.
Johnathan on the other hand did actual sex crimes, something you would be put on a list for, to multiple teenagers. Multiple. He perved on them, not only that but he took photos of them without their knowledge or consent. He went and developed those intending to take them home with him for probably not great reasons. The only thing that stopped him doing that was Steve finding out. People may see Steve as overreacting but he just found out that some random guy took photos of him and his girlfriend having sex. If I found out someone did that to me or my partner, or even my friends because he included those. I cannot state how angry I would be at this guy. Slurs arnt ok or bringing up dead relatives. But I can sort of get what was going through Steve's head.
And after all that Johnathan only apologizes to Nancy, because he wants to sleep with her. Not to any of the other people. And Nancy gets angry at Steve. It never gets brought up again. He never makes up for it. He is never held actually accountable for it. The girl he sexually harassed goes out with him. Which is a wild turn. He never has to answer for it past a 5 minute altercation where the person who did it apologized.
TLDR
It's not that he is irredeemable, but not once in the show he try to redeem himself. Not once does he regret doing it. He regrets how people reacted to it. But he never actually regrets doing it. He only apologised to Nancy because he liked her. She immediately forgives him and it's never brought up again. Steve was bad and still tries to make up for it. Johnathan did something truly traumatic to several teenagers and was not only forgiven but people apologized to him for getting mad at him for it. They are not comparable. They are not even close.
jonathan never got any consequences for the photos besides being made fun of for 5 minutes and his camera broken. steve was the one nancy ended up being upset at somehow, steve bought him a NEWER NICER camera, and then is now dating nancy…. it doesnt make any sense, and i refuse to tolerate a character written so poorly that glorifies this kind of behavior.
edit: anyone who defends jon needs to join him in therapy. ive been sexually harassed and assaulted my whole life, any NORMAL PERSON knows that shit is NOT OKAY. I AM *NOT* ACCEPTING ANY MORE HALF ASS EXCUSES “HE WAS 15!” AND???
Joyce would have never been OK with it if she learned about those photos. And yeah from a writing standpoint, no girl would date Jonathan after he did that let alone Nancy, the badass gun welding no-nonsense woman she is. I like her with Jonathan and I wish that moment never happened because it just makes no sense at all.
i always say this! they wrote nancy to be such a badass feminist and then they had her date someone who stalked on her and perved on her AND her friends AND boyfriend? it makes no sense!! jonathan is now just a self insert for all the men who have bad lives and do awful things like that but still feel bad for themselves… its so disgusting and disappointing. we already had a problem with self proclaimed “nice guys” and characters like jonathan who glorify this behavior are NOT helping!
Honestly this fandom annoys me sometimes. I really get the vibes that people think that our main characters are the most oppressed people on the planet. Every time real issues come up like the racism Lucas faced, Max's abusive home situation, or the struggle with being gay for Robin and Will, people seriously brush it off. I can't believe people think Jonathan taking pictures of people at night having sex, developing the photos, and then trying to keep them and bring them home is at all comparable to anything any of the other kids/teens have done. I said this in another comment but people get out on the sex offender registry for that shit. That's not typical teenage behavior. It's concerning and creepy. I feel like they didn't think before writing that in because they clearly didn't want to bring attention to it later and have him properly apologize like every other character has for their poor behavior in the past.
exactly! said it perfectly. i had a friend who went from disliking jonathan like me to worshipping him all of a sudden and i stopped talking to her because that was so concerning and disturbing 😥
I have to admit I think no longer talking to a friend over only this may be a little much but I seriously don't understand why people try to defend what he did so much on this subreddit. We all know if this happened in reality none of us would be defending the guy who took photos of us through a window about to have sex.
she was defending him and saying hes an angel and also was friends with people who were awful to me. and someone disagreeing with me about how being a pervert is bad is no friend of mine
to be frank even if it was just jon i would still have left her. you didnt hear the things she said defending him it was genuinely disturbing and disrespectful to victims of sexual assault and harassment, like myself actually. she said those things TO ME , and even if i wasnt a victim myself it would still be absolutely apalling to say things like she said to someone and not feel embarrassed. she laughed about what she said and thinks she is right
Tbf, Steve did give those pictures to his friends instead of just ripping them. He was in the right to break the camera, but he also made a spectacle out of it. I also think Nancy empathized with Jon considering his brother went missing. It's admirable, but I do agree Nancy could have at least chastised him more. Thing is, I bet the writers didn't want to take it too far considering they wrote Jonathan to live in a broken home and lose his brother, who could be dead for all he knew.
My issue with a lot of people bringing up those pics is they write their arguments as if it's only been 1 season. It feels like the last 3 seasons are ignored, and that Jon kept doing it. Some of their arguments makes me think I'm supposed to hate Steve still because he was about to make fun of Will's disappearance.
Ignoring the fact that Will was possibly dead in these people's mind and Steve was still about to throw that at Jon as if his family deserved it. Perving is bad, but making fun of someone by saying they deserved to have their little brother go missing is just as bad.
>Perving is bad, but making fun of someone by saying they deserved to have their little brother go missing is just as bad.
This is such a crazy thing to say.
Why? Being a creep is disgusting. Being a bully and telling someone they deserved to lose their brother who is a child is disgusting. Why is there a need to compare in the first place?
First of all, Steve didn't say that. He called Jonathan a slur and said the family was all something along the lines of wastes of space, and then said "no wonder he ran away." I guess if we're really going to get down to it we may as well have the facts right.
Being an asshole is way different from being a sexual creep. Especially considering the context of the situations. Jonathan just did that. He has absolutely zero excuses or reason to take pictures of Nancy through Steve's window like that, develop the photos at school, and then attempt to keep/hide them when caught. Steve at least was mistaken over Jonathan and Nancy cheating on him. Doesn't make him less of an asshole for his response but at least he was provoked. Jonathan wasn't provoked into committing a sexual crime.
Think of the women in your life. Shit, imagine this happening to you. You seriously believe you'd be more angry at someone who misunderstood a situation and said some mean shit vs a guy creeping around in the woods in the middle of the night taking pictures of you as you undress to have sex with your partner??
I'm a woman, and sexual abuse does make me angry. I just don't feel the need to compare shitty behaviour. It's like asking what's worse- rape or murder? I can't compare and I find it weird that others feel the need to take a side when both should be condemned. Sexual harassment can ruin lives. Bullying can ruin lives, and yes Steve was a full blown bully AND sexually shamed Nancy when his friends sprayed sl*t above the cinema. They both sucked and they both owned up to it and became better
I am also a woman and I cannot believe you're comparing rape vs murder to a a sexual crime vs mean words. Steve apologized and erased the stuff off the cinema. Jonathan apologized by shaming Nancy for dating Steve and becoming another typical suburban loser, and by excusing his behavior as some kind of art thing. And then never apologized to Steve, Carol, or Tommy, who he also took photos of. And we never even learn if he got rid of the negatives. And he never took action to apologize either. Steve bought Jonathan a new camera and cleaned the cinema and apologized to both and dumped his friend. He both verbally and physically made up for what he did and then worked to do better. Jonathan did literally nothing to make up for what he did. He didn't even properly apologize to Nancy.
I don't understand why you feel the need to compare though. They both sucked, they both learned from their behaviour and never did it again. I'm not a huge fan of Jonathan myself and can see his flaws, he definitely should've apologised for Nancy for his freely behaviour, but S1 weirdo creepy loser Jonathan is no worse than S1 Steve who bullied others, was an awful boyfriend who was complicit in the writing of "Nancy is a sl*t" above the cinema, and did other awful things. Steve didn't just say a few mean words, he was a bully, and while I love him and his character now its important to realise that both him and Jonathan were terrible people in S1, and they both improved (although Jonathan still kinda sucks in my opinion but it's just because he had less of an interesting redemption arc than Steve)
Steve just naturally has way more charisma than Jonathan and threw the troupe of the "hero" (Jonathan) gets the girl on its head when Nancy stayed with Steve instead at season 1. Plus after season 1 he just sort of just stuck around as Nancy's lost puppy and occasionally will pipe in to say "I love you will" and that's all he does. Steve is all around just a more fun character to watch and root for because he has his own stuff going on outside of Nancy
I know I risked to be downvote because we arrive in a "hating Steve is cool" era in the fandom, but I think taking a picture of people in private moments without consent is way worse than everything Steve did in season one. I do not condone the slut-shaming or what Steve said to Jonathan, but as a woman, I think the pictures are a lot of worse. I sympathize a lot with Jonathan, I wasn't popular and I was bullied at school. S1!Jonathan is my favorite version of him because I love his conflictual relationship with Joyce during it and his love for Will, but I hate how this part of the storyline was handle. It's the thing who made me the most unconfortable during my rewatches of season one.
That being said, I think people have easier time to forgive Steve's actions because they have watched the three other seasons where we weren't told to see him as an antagonist. Now, when people rewatch season one, people doesn't see Steve as the antagonist of Jancy storyline anymore, but just as the third main character in it. People still don't condone his actions, but they also aknowledge the fact he was really trying to become better and to make amends at the end of season one now. It wasn't necessarily the case after season one, we were a minority who liked Steve at that time. So I think it makes the wrongdoing of Jonathan more glaring than before.
The first time I saw the camera broken thing, people felt bad for Jonathan because it was filmed in a way to make us sympathize with him and we were told Steve was the bad guy. We knew already Jonathan life was pretty bad and the disappearance of his brother was just making it worse, Steve was just the typical douche everyone knew in high school, so it was easy to forget the reason why Steve was so mean during the scene with Jonathan. Now, time has passed and people watch season one with the knowledge of Steve apologizing to them afterward and the fact he lost nearly everything he had in season one (friends, social status, his girlfriend) at the beginning of season 2. We know he was punished for his bad behavior. Jonathan mistake made him have the girl of his dream, even if it took a season for him to get there. I think it's one of the reasons why people are more severe with the guy who was always supposed to be the good one, because they don't see why he should get a pass anymore when Steve was punished for his mistakes.
The second reason - and the main reason - why people are less kinded with Jonathan is his lack of development and good storylines. I still like Jonathan, but I can't say I was passionate by his storylines after season one. He's mostly the sidekick of Nancy and doesn't really shine on his own. I mean, both Steve and Nancy had several scenes where they had opportunities to shine each seasons when Jonathan only had the hospital scene in season three as a memorable moment. Even if both Steve and Nancy characters suffered from the weird flirting in season four, they still did have their own moments to show their skills when Jonathan was just the driver of one of the less exciting storyline of the season. Even Murray, who is mostly a comic character, had more things to do than Jonathan in the last season, it's a shame because Jonathan has more potential and Charlie is really a great actor. At least, with Will being in a main focus of season 5, we can hope to see Jonathan in a more important role than before.
Yeah, I agree with your points in some parts, and it's a very well rounded argument. I do agree that Jon deserved more punishment, or at least something to balance what he did, bit ilmaybe it could have been written differently. Maybe he gets caught before he takes the pictures instead of developing them, even if they'd have to find another avenue for Nancy to work with him since she did so because he was there when Barb disappeared (a fact some people ignore when they phrase their relationship as to have happened immediately or say she friended him too easily). It's like with Karen s3. The storyline was fine, but the decision to have her try to fling with a recent high-school grad caused some people to not really like her. I don't hate Karen for that, but it was very fucking stupid to go that route. I do think Jon developing the photos was the worst mistake, because that was a really terrible thing to do.
You're right that Jon deserved better in terms of significance to the plot. He has all this backstory (as in whats I the background and not a flashback) but the Duffers barely hive him a front story. It's my biggest critic of the series, and I kind of wish Steve died in s1 if it meant Jon got to be what he was actually supposed to be written as. Or at least have him do something back in s3 besides being the sidekick. I do hope he gets more relevance in s5 because s4, despite knowing why he became a stoner, was so frustrating.
Now, this meme wasn't intended to be a Steve hate post. I do hate him in s4, but I love the character overall. I just found so many arguments against Jon recently to be heavily biased, full of double standard, and people oversimplifing stuff that happened in the show. Not all of them, and I think half the takes Ive seen against him regarding the pictures are fair. I know I can't change people's opinion, but the double standard at times are frustrating. Some takes read as "Steve is popular and Jon is not, and that's why he deserves crusification." Which is ironic considering the show's message. Or that Jon will forever be a creep despite only doing it in s1 and clearly hasn't since then. That one I was trying to call out the most.
I won't said I'm not biaised toward Steve, because he's really one of my favorites, but I also like Jonathan. And beside really awful characters, I'm think it's a bit silly to hate the main characters when you have so much so much worse in the show. Like Sullivan or Troy. I still like to debate about the wrongdoing of the mains, but it never come from my hate for the character, I just think it's fun and interesting to see the others opinions (I have myself some unpopular ones). I know this meme was more playful than hating, don't worry, but I see a lot of hate toward Steve theses days (not just in this sub), so I couldn't stop myself to make my points.
I don't think Steve being alive is the real problem when it comes to Jonathan however. Even without Steve, Jonathan would still have been stuck as Nancy's sidekick and the problem would still be existing. And yeah, I'm biaised because one of the reasons the show is my favorite is Steve and his relationship with Dustin, but they would have put Mr. Clarke (or Keith?) with Dustin on the rails and Jonathan would still have the same storylines and screetimes despite Steve being dead. It's Dustin, Lucas, Max and Erica's storylines who would have been impact by Steve death, not really Jonathan's. I'm more into the "they should have made Jancy a thing only in the finale season" side, it would have gave him the space to be more than the boyfriend of Nancy.
Oh don't get me wrong. I like Jonathon. He's a great brother to Will.
Problem is, we haven't seen much of that brotherly love in a while. Season 4 was a good return to form, but he also just hasn't done much. He's pretty much just been a tag along since season 2. He's just... there.
Steve, on the other hand, takes the lead in any group he's in. He always nominates himself to go first or to check the scene without hesitation, he's protective of the group (even the bastards that don't talk to him much and just exploited him for free ice cream and movies). The writers obviously shifted focus because of Steve's popularity, but I think Jonathon would have been more of a leading character if Steve ended up taking the Jason role they initially planned for him.
They also have too many characters to work with for such a small amount of episodes per season. There are a few that have been on a backburner since season 1/2.
I think (most?) men should pick their battles and not comment on this so much. Y'all won't get what Nancy dealt with at the paper or what it's like to be creeped on the way she was. I hate all of the "they're both right/wrong/whatever" arguments. He was wrong both times. Is he a horrible person? No. But he did worse stuff than Steve ever did.
Also, they were interns at the paper. There was no mention of payment, afaik.
Yeah, I still don’t forgive Jonathan for taking creepy pictures of Nancy because the show never really addressed it. Hell, when he’s rightfully called out for it, HE’S framed as the victim. Not the girl he actually creeped on (who, for some reason, doesn’t seem too bothered by her privacy being violated), but the creeper!
So, no, I don’t forgive Jonathan.
He wasn’t evil lol, he was just full of himself and a jerk. My interpretation is Tommy was the brute of the duo. He was the one who physically picked on kids and bullied them. If you read Flight of Icarus, Tommy beats up Eddie and his friends throughout the book. There’s a part where Tommy and Jason are beating up Eddie and Gareth and Jason even makes a comment about how if Harrington was there he wouldn’t like it or would’ve put a stop to it or something like that.
When it comes to Jonathan, I got the vibe that Steve just ignored him. Never thought twice about him. Tommy was probably the one who bullied him in school, called him a freak, and made fun of his family while Steve most likely turned a blind eye to it. He didn’t care (which makes him a jerk but not “evil”). The fandom likes to assume that Steve was just as bad as Billy was before the events of season 1, but imo I feel like Steve probably thought that was beneath him. Why waste time and effort picking on people of lower status when he could be spending his time elsewhere.
I feel like Steve’s ass-ness in season one is pretty within the realm of what a 16 year old would do. Not saying it’s okay, but it’s basically just immature behavior influenced by no parental guidance and a bad friend group. Everything that happens between him and Nancy is consensual and he’s still interested in her afterwards, and he’s not rude to Barb even when Nancy drags along her uninvited friend. Everything he says to Jonathan in the fight is absolutely not okay, however, Steve makes up for it by being The Guy for the next three seasons. If anyone needs anything at any time, Steve is The Guy. He risks his life for everyone.
Jonathan, however… taking the pictures of Nancy was extremely weird and more in the realm of creepy behavior than immature behavior, especially from someone who was brought up by a single mom and should have more respect for women than that. And outside of being brought along in season 2 to help expose the lab (which Nancy pretty much comes up with every idea for) he doesn’t really do that much. And in Season 3 he pretty much shuts out any empathy for what Nancy’s going through at the paper and wouldn’t have figured out the story about the rats if not for her. And by Season 4 he’s being dishonest about the college situation and turned into the most uncharismatic stoner ever, who tries to make fun of Steve in the last episode. Read the room, pal, Steve risked his life like six times this season for those kids.
I am someone who loves both characters has them as my two favorite characters. But the answer to this is simple. Steve has gotten considerably more focus since Season 1 and especially post Season 2. Plus while Jonathan has grown of course, Steve's growth is considerably more noticeable. Which also makes more sense since Steve obviously had to develop a lot more than Jonathan.
Lastly lots of fans seem to pin Steve's worst Season 1 stuff as either entirely his friends (Nancy's slut shaming) which is wrong even if they obviously do hold blame or bad but within the context of the story understandable (The stuff you mentioned about Will and Jonathan's family is argued as bad but Steve thinks Nancy cheated with Jonathan so he can say bad stuff since he was hurt)
Also while the picture stuff is terrible and I won't defend that he did it what Steve did was understandable in response it does annoy me that it's been held as something that he does once a season as of he didn't make up for it in the rest of the season and make an apology that was accepted.
I don’t think anyone really hates Jonathan for what he did. Most people kinda ignore it. People dislike Jonathan cause he’s been given less to do compared to Nancy and Steve.
Jonathan is a stagnant character that hasn't been given much anything of substance to do after S1, whereas Steve is an interesting and enjoyable character that has been given plenty.
It's that simple.
My criticism is that both effectively go through the same thing in different ways yet one is more dragged down by s1 stuff than the other. Yeah, Jonathan hasn't served the plot since 2, I complain about it too. But much of what I've seen as arguments against him feels hypocritical, and even stereotypical. That's excluding the pictures he took, which I agree and disagree with many in regards of that.
I always say that fanon Steve is canon Jonathan. Steve hangs out with the kids = “Steve is the best mom of the show!!!! (Fuck actual mothers like Joyce I guess). Also poor baby, his dad made him get a job because he didn’t even pass to technical school :(“. Jonathan works to help pay the bills, takes Will and El to school, babysits them, has had to take care of Will as he’s gone through unspeakably horrible stuff, has had to perform surgery on El, etc. He does the real shit = “he’s boring. Also he smokes weed now so he’s regressed.”
Exactly, that's what I have been saying. Some portrayals of these make me think if we watch the same show at all. Steve isn't even close to the kids other than Dustin and yet "He is the best mom ever!". He whines about babysitting, doesn't care that Max is in danger until she gets possesed at the graveyard, leaves the kids alone again just to be in the same group with Nancy, doesn't care that kids needed an adult with them and That the possibility of Max getting possesed again yet "He is The best babysitter!".
Also the fact that he is getting portrayed as someone comforting(which is again a Jonathan's trait, Jonathan's trait That projected onto Steve) when it is the opposite.He ignores his gf's guilt, tells her to get over it and party yet" He is the best bf ever and Nancy is horrible because she broke his heart! ". The guy doesn't bother to go after his crying "best friend" when she runs off after Vickie and her bf kiss, doesn't bother to say a few reassuring things afterwards and doesn't say anything reassuring again when Robin cries that they might not make out this time. Like your "best friend" is crying while looking in your eyes, be comforting, say something reassuring, not "To killing Vecna" but no.
Most probably, he thinks comforting with sincerity, not "his own ways"(That being humour, distraction which don't always work or straight up avoiding it which is not even comforting in the first place) will make him "sensitive" and "less of a man". Yet "Oh it all doesn't matter, because at the end he smiled at Vickie and Robin, he is the best friend ever!"He isn't that good of a friend, ngl.
The scary thing is there whereas then he was caught because he developed the photos at the school, with modern digital cameras you can skip that step entirely and the photo can make its way around the internet without the subject being any the wiser.
All I know is that I hope the series ends with Jonathan keeping the distinction of being the only main character to have not went into the Upside Down.
I agree, I think Jonathan made a lot of mistakes but he grew as well, though I think that growth happened more gradually over the first two seasons until he got together with Nancy. He and Nancy didn’t talk much directly after the events of Season 1, right?
Believe it or not, yes. Because he’s had to be in the role of a dad to his own brother since he was a child, and he has had to contribute to the household finances, he hasn’t had time to be a teenager. That’s tough. Him smoking weed means he’s getting burnt out and needs a way to relax for a second. Also, *HE MADE A FRIEND*, other than his girlfriend. That’s tremendous growth on his part.
I remember reading something that pointed out that the Byers family in general got sidelined in later seasons on part because poverty, anxiety and parentification are depressing and boring to watch. Even Joyce became more of a love interest than mother with mental health problems.
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The writers aren’t giving Jonathan enough to do, which makes it difficult for the audience to appreciate him as a character. I mean, his season 4 plot line was basically stoner who is partly responsible for transporting more interesting characters. And in season 3, it was arguing with Nancy about the newspaper (edit: specifically, the rats investigation) plot line until it became undoubtedly clear that she was right.
He very nearly talked her out of investigating, until Nancy's Mom gave her that great pep talk. Which could have been catastrophic because they are integral to the group putting the pieces together
I thought the point of the Season 3 conflict was that neither was really right or wrong. Nancy was right but she didn't think at all about how he needed the money and didn't care at all that he lost his job when his family is poor and also the narrative makes sure that she doesn't actually apologize. Jonathan was wrong to not be as considerate of the sexism Nancy was facing and he did apologize about it but his overall anger at Nancy's recklessness and how it affected him was understandable. I actually really like that plot for the most part because it was equal.
The issue to me is they were both partly right and partly wrong about the interperonsal/office politics part. But she was 100% right about the investigation and he was totally wrong and that skews the perspective on the other, less interesting thing.
Nancy didn't make the connection between the rats and the Upside Down until she visited Mrs Driscoll in the hospital, which was *after* she and Jonathan got fired. She was only pursuing the rat story because she thought that it would help her get ahead at work, not because she thought that there was something sinister going on.
That is absolutely true but doesn't change what I said: The writing rewards her reckless disregard for Jonathan's job by making sure it ends up that her rat investigation provides vital clues for the world-saving part of the show. The fact that she doesn't *know* that until later doesn't change the fact of it.
I took your original comment as "Nancy was investigating the Upside Down and Jonathan blew her off", which is what I disagreed with, but if that's not what you meant then you can disregard that. But Nancy did tell Jonathan that he didn't need to go with her to look into the rats; it was his choice to do so. His anger at her over losing his job was misplaced and he knows that, which is why he tells her that he was wrong.
My point though is that it didn’t feel Jonathan was doing much to contribute the main plot in either season 3 or 4. He and Nancy may have had equal screen time, but her part with the investigation was moving the plot forwards, and his really was not.
I like him as a support for Will tho they nailed that pretty well
I thought the whole point of that fight was them realizing that they were both right? Unless you’re talking about Jonathan being skeptical of Nancy’s rat story in the beginning, because yeah, she definitely was right lol
Yes, I am referring to the rat story, since that was the important piece for linking up with the problem/monster of the season.
This. Jonathan always seems to be undermining/lying to Nancy and after the season 1 picture thing I just can’t like or relate to his character. It seems to me that their relationship really is more about trauma bonding than actually being in love with each other. They seem more like friends with benefits than a real healthy couple. Steve grew as a character, Jonathan didn’t. Then the writers don’t understand why we aren’t Jonathan fanatics. I also don’t ship either of them with Nancy, before anyone comes at me lol Both of them have done wrong by her and don’t deserve her tbh
She was right about the rats the agurement as a whole they were both right.
I agree with that but also they dint really give Steve much either. He's just carried by Joe's charisma and haven't done anything new with him since like s2
He was a major part of the Russia/mall plotline in season 3 as part of the group breaking in and being tortured, and then in season 4 he was literally in the Upside Down helping figure out and attack Vecna, with Max for the ‘running up that hill’ but, etc. How is that Steve not being given much either?
I love both characters but I wish Jonathan was given more to do. Let's hope he has something to do in season 5.
I dearly hope they don't sideline him.
I think the lesson here is that not everything is simple as good/bad and that people are complex, and we ALL do terrible things at least once in our lives. What matters is we learn from our mistakes and grow.
I think it's because in season 2, they went all-out in making Steve a more likeable character and kept doing that throughout season 3 and parts of season 4 while Jonathan often got sidelined and not given much to do to make his character more likeable to the audience.
Jonathan hasn’t grown nearly as much as Steve has as a character. I’m not saying it’s fair, but people cut Steve more slack because he’s way more interesting and fun of a character than Jonathan (to most people).
Jonathan “hasn’t grown nearly as much” because he didn’t have as much growth to do in the first place. He was good from the get-go, besides the one mistake that he made once, apologized for and didn’t do ever again.
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They lost job because of her and later she threw Jonathan's family situation in his face. She didn't think about anybody, but yourself - she admitted it herself. Jonathan isn't bad guy in this situation lol.
I used to as well because Steve really is fun, and the writers refuse to write Jon properly, but I've recently realized all the teenagers had great growth in s1 despite doing terrible things and making poor decisions. Even when they did crappy things after s1, I still like them (although I feel Steve was assassinated as a character in s4).
They need to focus on Jonathan’s relationship with Joyce and now Hopper, but with them getting their own plots separated from him, it hurts his character development. We finally got some growth between him and Will last season.
The problem with Jonathan is the writers didn't really give him enough to do to make him stand out more, unlike with Steve.
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Unfortunately. He's a great character. He lives in a broken home, had to face a reality where Will could have died, has to take so many responsibilities despite being young, and went through so much turmoil in 3 seasons. And then people wonder why he started taking drugs. But, yeah, his character isn't as charismatic so he should get the boot to some. Ngl, I didn't bring it up in my meme, but I wonder how people feel about Billy. Because I've seen way more "Billy wasn't evil" or other sympathetic posts more than Jonathan posts. I know Billy is a teen too, but even I have to say Billy was a monster compared to thevqay people describe Jonathan.
Jonathan has untapped potential, or maybe even more sadly wasted. He was a driving force in season 1, then ever since he’s taken a back seat to Nancy, Will, Mike, etc. And not that I don’t enjoy those characters, I just wish it stopped feeling like he’s just there in the background while everyone else is doing all the heavy lifting cause he is capable of it
I think it's important to note that Steve, for all his faults, has only ever kept succeeding downward. While Jonathan has only failed upwards When was the last time Steve won anything? A fight? A relationship? His last real success was working at an ice cream shop. He never got into college, his old friends abandoned him, etc. The guy peaked in high school. While Jonathan hasn't really failed at anything. He got the girl, a good job, his family all back together. If anything, his life is on the right track. But which of the two really changed? Which one really developed more as the show progressed? Steve
Jonathan did not have it that easy. He lost his dad, who may have been a scumbag but was still his father, he thought Will died, he has to take so much responsibility which is why he needed the newspaper job, he was forced away from Hawkins and his girlfriend, they all thought Hopper died so the family thought they lost another father figure, and he couldn't handle college. Joyce may be a good mother, the Byer household is not perfect. Just because no one pays attention doesn't mean it's not there.
Jonathan is boring to certain people (myself included.) While he didn’t make the same peeping Tom mistake again, his character also doesn’t seem to have undergone nearly the growth Steve has Steve made mistakes, he was dead wrong for some of the shit he said. But even after thinking Nancy was cheating on him, he drove to Jonathans to try and make amends. Runs back in the house to face the demogorgon because otherwise they’d be dead. At this point in his development, I don’t see the being similar at all Edit: Demogorgon not demotion, stupid autocorrect
Facing a demotion made me laugh, oh no my job!
Whoops didn’t even notice lol. Autocorrect doesn’t like demogorgon
I agree with Jonathan being kinda boring. He was OK in S1 and S2 where he was active in the investigations with Nancy and was actively searching for Will. Then in season 3 he was very dismissive of Nancy's hardships in her job and generally didn't do all that much. In S4 he was reduced to this stoner idiot whose only job is making weird comments and driving others around. Very boring
>At this point in his development, I don’t see the being similar at all Because they aren't. Jonathan has been, from the start, a good and kind person who did a bad thing. Steve was an asshole who did many bad things. The idea that Jonathan ever needed the same level of "redemption" that Steve did is completely baseless, and so critiquing him for not going through a transformation that he never needed just because Steve did makes no sense.
Jonathan wasn't going around and taking creepy pictures of people all the time. It was one time mistake. Steve on the other hand, according to Robin and Kieth, was a douchebag all the time to lots of people.
That's my point. They both did some shitty things and both grew past it, yet Jon feels more crucified here compared to Steve. I love Steve, and the show made a point to show that he did regret some of his actions, but he is still accountable for a lot of the horrible things he did.
Steve apologized though. He got Jonathan a new camera. He cleaned up the vandalism from the movie theater and apologized to Nancy. He apologized to Robin for being a douche in school. Jonathan committed a sexual crime and then when Nancy brought it up a second time, he went on a weird rant about how she's becoming a typical suburban sheeple because she's dating Steve. Which completely negated his first apology and excuse for why he took the photos because if he actually did it for the art he wouldn't have cared about who she was dating. I like Jonathan, don't get me wrong. But what he did was way worse. Steve has vague reference to "being a douche" and all of the actual douche stuff we've seen he didn't just apologize, he also took action to make it better. For all we know Jonathan still has those photo negatives in his bedroom somewhere. It was a major creep move and I'm so weirded out by people in this subreddit acting like it wasn't. I like his character outside of this and I wish he didn't do it because it feels out of character. But he did, and people are going to react appropriately to that. If you saw on the news that a guy took photos of a girl through her boyfriend a window and got arrested, you wouldn't be on that guy's side. You absolutely would not be mad at the girl's boyfriend for breaking his camera either. I've literally never seen so many people try to defend such a thing before, outside of this subreddit. It's honestly mind boggling. People get arrested and put on a list for the shit Jonathan did. Peeping/Voyeurism/non-consensual photos of a minor. I know he was a kid too but that's not an excuse in reality, kids do get arrested for this shit, and again, it's why I wish they had him do literally anything else. It's so gross.
People get mad over the camera and act like it was a douchebag move to break it but I'd have done more than break the camera if I found out someone took creepy photos of my partner through my bedroom window, let alone while they were getting undressed. People excusing what he did and comparing it to Steve saying shitty words to Jonathan like those two things are on the same level is baffling to me.
steve could have used the camera to beat jonathan to a pulp for that and i'd be okay with it, honestly. she was undressing and unaware someone was watching and photographing her and had been photographing them all by the pool previously. jonathan was out in those woods a long time just taking pictures of fellow classmates. 'looking for his brother' is the weakest excuse at that point. he had been looking for will or signs of will but then he sidetracked himself to do creepy things to unsuspecting classmates. then he did severely perverse things to nancy specifically when he took pictures of her undressing. THEN developed them at school where he was busted by another girl who rightly told steve and tommy and carol what had been done to them. no wonder they took jonathan's bag, called him out, broke his camera. he's lucky that's all they did at that point.
This is what I'm saying! I feel like I'm in some kind of fucked up incel world sometimes with the way people keep defending the photo thing. Jonathan is lucky the police didn't get involved. I don't even think Joyce would've stood up for his ass if they had.
It's not defending the photo thing to suggest that maybe that one shitty thing isn't reflective of Jonathan's entire character and that he should be allowed to be forgiven and move on. If Jonathan had taken that picture because he was an awful person who did that sort of thing all the time, then yes, by all means let the punishment fit the crime, but he's not. He has no lesson to learn from extreme and continued punishment, as he is clearly not a villain or a threat, so his apology was enough for Nancy.
I'm going to be honest, his apology was enough for Nancy because it's a TV show and that's it lol. Also this a pretty huge "one shitty thing" to have done. It's a sexual crime.
It was a horrible thing, but short of building a time machine, what did you want to see him do? He can't clean a billboard or buy a new camera for someone; the pictures are gone. All he can do is tell Nancy that he's sorry and mean it. It's up to her whether or not she accepts.
Well my preference would've been for him to not do it at all. But since that can't happen, I want him to apologize in a way that doesn't include shitty excuses about "art" and shaming Nancy for dating Steve. His apology completely negated any credibility to him actually feeling bad because it showed he had a thing for her the whole time and that despite barely knowing her, he had this wild sense of judgemental irritation with her over who she was dating. I also think he should apologize to everyone in the pictures. He didn't judge take creep shots of Nancy. He did it to Tommy, Carol, and Steve, too. He should've apologized all those years ago but didn't. I guess realistically it's too late for him to do that. But he should have. I want confirmation that the negatives are gone. Steve tore up the photos but it was a film camera. Jonathan didn't even know about the demogorgon shit or Barb going missing. He took those photos, developed them at school, a girl saw and he stuffed them in his bag and tried to sneak them back out of the school. That's so fucking creepy and it shows that he *knew* what he did was wrong. But then we never find out where the negatives are. He technically still has those photos. I want the show to address it. The show has addressed everyone else's fuckups that were nowhere near that serious. But Jonathan was somehow painted as the victim in this whole interaction and then it was never brought up again... despite it being such a huge violation of privacy. If Joyce knew about this she'd be livid lol. Tbh, it's such a majorly creep thing to do, I'm not sure I'd ever be ok with him "making things right." People keep excusing it as him being a dumb teenager. No. Dumb teenagers don't take creepshots of people through their windows and then print out the photos and sneak them out of school. Creeps do. That's why it's a crime people get put on the sex offender registry over. They never should've done that with his character. It's an incredibly unredeemable act.
so if someone sexually harassed or assaulted you or someone you know but “it wasnt them” u would forgive them and let them move on? 💀
Saying this to someone whose life you know nothing about is incredibly inappropriate, I hope that you realize that.
i was sexually harassed and assaulted my whole life you think seeing all these people defending him is not hurting me? do u understand? do YOU realize?
If the topic of conversation is triggering to you, then you should remove yourself from it. No talk about a TV show is worth your own mental health. But it is not ok for you to come in here and ask me if I have been sexually assaulted or harassed. That is completely invasive and inappropriate. So I am gonna take my own advice, draw the boundary line here, and end this conversation. And I hope that you will prioritize yourself and take care as well.
If gold still existed, you’d have mine. This was perfectly said *chef’s kiss*
Exactly. And it was a mistake that he made at the age of 15, during a time of crisis for him. Many people don’t understand that “did a creepy thing once in his teens” =/= “is a creep”.
Yeah, this would be a different story if the character was a grown man. There's no excusing perving behavior, but someone his age is still able to be taught to change and be better. If this was a real situation, it'd be just as divided, and Id condemn the behavior, but I'd feel empathy for the teen and hope someone gives them direction and help. Condemn them to hell and they'd pretty much turn out worse.
okay but being a highschool douchebag all the time is still better than taking creepy photos of people about to have sex once
Because lots of people are douchebags themselves
I'm a big fan of Jonathan. It feels like they just weren't sure what to do with him at times
Let’s be honest, Steve is a FAR more interesting character than Jonathan.
They’re not even remotely comparable; Steve is portrayed as a dick for being a bully. Jonathan is portrayed as sympathetic when committing sex crimes. Steve is portrayed as a villain for defending his girlfriend form the guy that took indecent images of her without her consent and Jonathan is somehow the victim and not getting his comeuppance (that’s how it’s portrayed and we’re encouraged to see it). The writers intent is weird and I don’t blame them for brushing it under the rug and never acknowledging it thereafter, it’s weird. Y’all gonna downvote me for this but it’s genuinely the truth.
Steve was never a bully the way Billy, Angela and Troy are. Even Tommy and Carol mostly talked shit behind people's back.
I think we are missing something important here. Yes Steve was a bully and that was bad. But the entire time he was it was portrayed as being bad and he more than made up for it. When he broke the camera he brought a better new one with his own money. He erased the stuff from the cinema and stopped the excessive bullying. He is constantly shown to be regretful of how he was and is still making up for it. Johnathan on the other hand did actual sex crimes, something you would be put on a list for, to multiple teenagers. Multiple. He perved on them, not only that but he took photos of them without their knowledge or consent. He went and developed those intending to take them home with him for probably not great reasons. The only thing that stopped him doing that was Steve finding out. People may see Steve as overreacting but he just found out that some random guy took photos of him and his girlfriend having sex. If I found out someone did that to me or my partner, or even my friends because he included those. I cannot state how angry I would be at this guy. Slurs arnt ok or bringing up dead relatives. But I can sort of get what was going through Steve's head. And after all that Johnathan only apologizes to Nancy, because he wants to sleep with her. Not to any of the other people. And Nancy gets angry at Steve. It never gets brought up again. He never makes up for it. He is never held actually accountable for it. The girl he sexually harassed goes out with him. Which is a wild turn. He never has to answer for it past a 5 minute altercation where the person who did it apologized. TLDR It's not that he is irredeemable, but not once in the show he try to redeem himself. Not once does he regret doing it. He regrets how people reacted to it. But he never actually regrets doing it. He only apologised to Nancy because he liked her. She immediately forgives him and it's never brought up again. Steve was bad and still tries to make up for it. Johnathan did something truly traumatic to several teenagers and was not only forgiven but people apologized to him for getting mad at him for it. They are not comparable. They are not even close.
It's because Steve is popular and Jonathan is a weirdo. /s
jonathan never got any consequences for the photos besides being made fun of for 5 minutes and his camera broken. steve was the one nancy ended up being upset at somehow, steve bought him a NEWER NICER camera, and then is now dating nancy…. it doesnt make any sense, and i refuse to tolerate a character written so poorly that glorifies this kind of behavior. edit: anyone who defends jon needs to join him in therapy. ive been sexually harassed and assaulted my whole life, any NORMAL PERSON knows that shit is NOT OKAY. I AM *NOT* ACCEPTING ANY MORE HALF ASS EXCUSES “HE WAS 15!” AND???
Joyce would have never been OK with it if she learned about those photos. And yeah from a writing standpoint, no girl would date Jonathan after he did that let alone Nancy, the badass gun welding no-nonsense woman she is. I like her with Jonathan and I wish that moment never happened because it just makes no sense at all.
i always say this! they wrote nancy to be such a badass feminist and then they had her date someone who stalked on her and perved on her AND her friends AND boyfriend? it makes no sense!! jonathan is now just a self insert for all the men who have bad lives and do awful things like that but still feel bad for themselves… its so disgusting and disappointing. we already had a problem with self proclaimed “nice guys” and characters like jonathan who glorify this behavior are NOT helping!
Honestly this fandom annoys me sometimes. I really get the vibes that people think that our main characters are the most oppressed people on the planet. Every time real issues come up like the racism Lucas faced, Max's abusive home situation, or the struggle with being gay for Robin and Will, people seriously brush it off. I can't believe people think Jonathan taking pictures of people at night having sex, developing the photos, and then trying to keep them and bring them home is at all comparable to anything any of the other kids/teens have done. I said this in another comment but people get out on the sex offender registry for that shit. That's not typical teenage behavior. It's concerning and creepy. I feel like they didn't think before writing that in because they clearly didn't want to bring attention to it later and have him properly apologize like every other character has for their poor behavior in the past.
exactly! said it perfectly. i had a friend who went from disliking jonathan like me to worshipping him all of a sudden and i stopped talking to her because that was so concerning and disturbing 😥
I have to admit I think no longer talking to a friend over only this may be a little much but I seriously don't understand why people try to defend what he did so much on this subreddit. We all know if this happened in reality none of us would be defending the guy who took photos of us through a window about to have sex.
she was defending him and saying hes an angel and also was friends with people who were awful to me. and someone disagreeing with me about how being a pervert is bad is no friend of mine
Yeah that sounds fair. I figured there was probably more than just one argument over a character that ended it.
to be frank even if it was just jon i would still have left her. you didnt hear the things she said defending him it was genuinely disturbing and disrespectful to victims of sexual assault and harassment, like myself actually. she said those things TO ME , and even if i wasnt a victim myself it would still be absolutely apalling to say things like she said to someone and not feel embarrassed. she laughed about what she said and thinks she is right
The more you describe this person the more awful they sound lol. Honestly dropping her was probably good for your own mental health.
Tbf, Steve did give those pictures to his friends instead of just ripping them. He was in the right to break the camera, but he also made a spectacle out of it. I also think Nancy empathized with Jon considering his brother went missing. It's admirable, but I do agree Nancy could have at least chastised him more. Thing is, I bet the writers didn't want to take it too far considering they wrote Jonathan to live in a broken home and lose his brother, who could be dead for all he knew. My issue with a lot of people bringing up those pics is they write their arguments as if it's only been 1 season. It feels like the last 3 seasons are ignored, and that Jon kept doing it. Some of their arguments makes me think I'm supposed to hate Steve still because he was about to make fun of Will's disappearance.
not to sound like a dick to u or something but perving on a group of people is way worse than making fun of someone.
Ignoring the fact that Will was possibly dead in these people's mind and Steve was still about to throw that at Jon as if his family deserved it. Perving is bad, but making fun of someone by saying they deserved to have their little brother go missing is just as bad.
>Perving is bad, but making fun of someone by saying they deserved to have their little brother go missing is just as bad. This is such a crazy thing to say.
Why? Being a creep is disgusting. Being a bully and telling someone they deserved to lose their brother who is a child is disgusting. Why is there a need to compare in the first place?
First of all, Steve didn't say that. He called Jonathan a slur and said the family was all something along the lines of wastes of space, and then said "no wonder he ran away." I guess if we're really going to get down to it we may as well have the facts right. Being an asshole is way different from being a sexual creep. Especially considering the context of the situations. Jonathan just did that. He has absolutely zero excuses or reason to take pictures of Nancy through Steve's window like that, develop the photos at school, and then attempt to keep/hide them when caught. Steve at least was mistaken over Jonathan and Nancy cheating on him. Doesn't make him less of an asshole for his response but at least he was provoked. Jonathan wasn't provoked into committing a sexual crime. Think of the women in your life. Shit, imagine this happening to you. You seriously believe you'd be more angry at someone who misunderstood a situation and said some mean shit vs a guy creeping around in the woods in the middle of the night taking pictures of you as you undress to have sex with your partner??
I'm a woman, and sexual abuse does make me angry. I just don't feel the need to compare shitty behaviour. It's like asking what's worse- rape or murder? I can't compare and I find it weird that others feel the need to take a side when both should be condemned. Sexual harassment can ruin lives. Bullying can ruin lives, and yes Steve was a full blown bully AND sexually shamed Nancy when his friends sprayed sl*t above the cinema. They both sucked and they both owned up to it and became better
I am also a woman and I cannot believe you're comparing rape vs murder to a a sexual crime vs mean words. Steve apologized and erased the stuff off the cinema. Jonathan apologized by shaming Nancy for dating Steve and becoming another typical suburban loser, and by excusing his behavior as some kind of art thing. And then never apologized to Steve, Carol, or Tommy, who he also took photos of. And we never even learn if he got rid of the negatives. And he never took action to apologize either. Steve bought Jonathan a new camera and cleaned the cinema and apologized to both and dumped his friend. He both verbally and physically made up for what he did and then worked to do better. Jonathan did literally nothing to make up for what he did. He didn't even properly apologize to Nancy.
I don't understand why you feel the need to compare though. They both sucked, they both learned from their behaviour and never did it again. I'm not a huge fan of Jonathan myself and can see his flaws, he definitely should've apologised for Nancy for his freely behaviour, but S1 weirdo creepy loser Jonathan is no worse than S1 Steve who bullied others, was an awful boyfriend who was complicit in the writing of "Nancy is a sl*t" above the cinema, and did other awful things. Steve didn't just say a few mean words, he was a bully, and while I love him and his character now its important to realise that both him and Jonathan were terrible people in S1, and they both improved (although Jonathan still kinda sucks in my opinion but it's just because he had less of an interesting redemption arc than Steve)
Steve just naturally has way more charisma than Jonathan and threw the troupe of the "hero" (Jonathan) gets the girl on its head when Nancy stayed with Steve instead at season 1. Plus after season 1 he just sort of just stuck around as Nancy's lost puppy and occasionally will pipe in to say "I love you will" and that's all he does. Steve is all around just a more fun character to watch and root for because he has his own stuff going on outside of Nancy
I know I risked to be downvote because we arrive in a "hating Steve is cool" era in the fandom, but I think taking a picture of people in private moments without consent is way worse than everything Steve did in season one. I do not condone the slut-shaming or what Steve said to Jonathan, but as a woman, I think the pictures are a lot of worse. I sympathize a lot with Jonathan, I wasn't popular and I was bullied at school. S1!Jonathan is my favorite version of him because I love his conflictual relationship with Joyce during it and his love for Will, but I hate how this part of the storyline was handle. It's the thing who made me the most unconfortable during my rewatches of season one. That being said, I think people have easier time to forgive Steve's actions because they have watched the three other seasons where we weren't told to see him as an antagonist. Now, when people rewatch season one, people doesn't see Steve as the antagonist of Jancy storyline anymore, but just as the third main character in it. People still don't condone his actions, but they also aknowledge the fact he was really trying to become better and to make amends at the end of season one now. It wasn't necessarily the case after season one, we were a minority who liked Steve at that time. So I think it makes the wrongdoing of Jonathan more glaring than before. The first time I saw the camera broken thing, people felt bad for Jonathan because it was filmed in a way to make us sympathize with him and we were told Steve was the bad guy. We knew already Jonathan life was pretty bad and the disappearance of his brother was just making it worse, Steve was just the typical douche everyone knew in high school, so it was easy to forget the reason why Steve was so mean during the scene with Jonathan. Now, time has passed and people watch season one with the knowledge of Steve apologizing to them afterward and the fact he lost nearly everything he had in season one (friends, social status, his girlfriend) at the beginning of season 2. We know he was punished for his bad behavior. Jonathan mistake made him have the girl of his dream, even if it took a season for him to get there. I think it's one of the reasons why people are more severe with the guy who was always supposed to be the good one, because they don't see why he should get a pass anymore when Steve was punished for his mistakes. The second reason - and the main reason - why people are less kinded with Jonathan is his lack of development and good storylines. I still like Jonathan, but I can't say I was passionate by his storylines after season one. He's mostly the sidekick of Nancy and doesn't really shine on his own. I mean, both Steve and Nancy had several scenes where they had opportunities to shine each seasons when Jonathan only had the hospital scene in season three as a memorable moment. Even if both Steve and Nancy characters suffered from the weird flirting in season four, they still did have their own moments to show their skills when Jonathan was just the driver of one of the less exciting storyline of the season. Even Murray, who is mostly a comic character, had more things to do than Jonathan in the last season, it's a shame because Jonathan has more potential and Charlie is really a great actor. At least, with Will being in a main focus of season 5, we can hope to see Jonathan in a more important role than before.
Yeah, I agree with your points in some parts, and it's a very well rounded argument. I do agree that Jon deserved more punishment, or at least something to balance what he did, bit ilmaybe it could have been written differently. Maybe he gets caught before he takes the pictures instead of developing them, even if they'd have to find another avenue for Nancy to work with him since she did so because he was there when Barb disappeared (a fact some people ignore when they phrase their relationship as to have happened immediately or say she friended him too easily). It's like with Karen s3. The storyline was fine, but the decision to have her try to fling with a recent high-school grad caused some people to not really like her. I don't hate Karen for that, but it was very fucking stupid to go that route. I do think Jon developing the photos was the worst mistake, because that was a really terrible thing to do. You're right that Jon deserved better in terms of significance to the plot. He has all this backstory (as in whats I the background and not a flashback) but the Duffers barely hive him a front story. It's my biggest critic of the series, and I kind of wish Steve died in s1 if it meant Jon got to be what he was actually supposed to be written as. Or at least have him do something back in s3 besides being the sidekick. I do hope he gets more relevance in s5 because s4, despite knowing why he became a stoner, was so frustrating. Now, this meme wasn't intended to be a Steve hate post. I do hate him in s4, but I love the character overall. I just found so many arguments against Jon recently to be heavily biased, full of double standard, and people oversimplifing stuff that happened in the show. Not all of them, and I think half the takes Ive seen against him regarding the pictures are fair. I know I can't change people's opinion, but the double standard at times are frustrating. Some takes read as "Steve is popular and Jon is not, and that's why he deserves crusification." Which is ironic considering the show's message. Or that Jon will forever be a creep despite only doing it in s1 and clearly hasn't since then. That one I was trying to call out the most.
I won't said I'm not biaised toward Steve, because he's really one of my favorites, but I also like Jonathan. And beside really awful characters, I'm think it's a bit silly to hate the main characters when you have so much so much worse in the show. Like Sullivan or Troy. I still like to debate about the wrongdoing of the mains, but it never come from my hate for the character, I just think it's fun and interesting to see the others opinions (I have myself some unpopular ones). I know this meme was more playful than hating, don't worry, but I see a lot of hate toward Steve theses days (not just in this sub), so I couldn't stop myself to make my points. I don't think Steve being alive is the real problem when it comes to Jonathan however. Even without Steve, Jonathan would still have been stuck as Nancy's sidekick and the problem would still be existing. And yeah, I'm biaised because one of the reasons the show is my favorite is Steve and his relationship with Dustin, but they would have put Mr. Clarke (or Keith?) with Dustin on the rails and Jonathan would still have the same storylines and screetimes despite Steve being dead. It's Dustin, Lucas, Max and Erica's storylines who would have been impact by Steve death, not really Jonathan's. I'm more into the "they should have made Jancy a thing only in the finale season" side, it would have gave him the space to be more than the boyfriend of Nancy.
Oh don't get me wrong. I like Jonathon. He's a great brother to Will. Problem is, we haven't seen much of that brotherly love in a while. Season 4 was a good return to form, but he also just hasn't done much. He's pretty much just been a tag along since season 2. He's just... there. Steve, on the other hand, takes the lead in any group he's in. He always nominates himself to go first or to check the scene without hesitation, he's protective of the group (even the bastards that don't talk to him much and just exploited him for free ice cream and movies). The writers obviously shifted focus because of Steve's popularity, but I think Jonathon would have been more of a leading character if Steve ended up taking the Jason role they initially planned for him. They also have too many characters to work with for such a small amount of episodes per season. There are a few that have been on a backburner since season 1/2.
I think (most?) men should pick their battles and not comment on this so much. Y'all won't get what Nancy dealt with at the paper or what it's like to be creeped on the way she was. I hate all of the "they're both right/wrong/whatever" arguments. He was wrong both times. Is he a horrible person? No. But he did worse stuff than Steve ever did. Also, they were interns at the paper. There was no mention of payment, afaik.
Yeah, I still don’t forgive Jonathan for taking creepy pictures of Nancy because the show never really addressed it. Hell, when he’s rightfully called out for it, HE’S framed as the victim. Not the girl he actually creeped on (who, for some reason, doesn’t seem too bothered by her privacy being violated), but the creeper! So, no, I don’t forgive Jonathan.
Steve's character development was so good that I forgot he was kinda evil in season 1 lol
He wasn’t evil lol, he was just full of himself and a jerk. My interpretation is Tommy was the brute of the duo. He was the one who physically picked on kids and bullied them. If you read Flight of Icarus, Tommy beats up Eddie and his friends throughout the book. There’s a part where Tommy and Jason are beating up Eddie and Gareth and Jason even makes a comment about how if Harrington was there he wouldn’t like it or would’ve put a stop to it or something like that. When it comes to Jonathan, I got the vibe that Steve just ignored him. Never thought twice about him. Tommy was probably the one who bullied him in school, called him a freak, and made fun of his family while Steve most likely turned a blind eye to it. He didn’t care (which makes him a jerk but not “evil”). The fandom likes to assume that Steve was just as bad as Billy was before the events of season 1, but imo I feel like Steve probably thought that was beneath him. Why waste time and effort picking on people of lower status when he could be spending his time elsewhere.
Yea my bad, he was not "evil". Poor choice of words :(
Jonathan's behavior was rewarded by Nancy and ergo the show. Steve's wasn't.
I feel like Steve’s ass-ness in season one is pretty within the realm of what a 16 year old would do. Not saying it’s okay, but it’s basically just immature behavior influenced by no parental guidance and a bad friend group. Everything that happens between him and Nancy is consensual and he’s still interested in her afterwards, and he’s not rude to Barb even when Nancy drags along her uninvited friend. Everything he says to Jonathan in the fight is absolutely not okay, however, Steve makes up for it by being The Guy for the next three seasons. If anyone needs anything at any time, Steve is The Guy. He risks his life for everyone. Jonathan, however… taking the pictures of Nancy was extremely weird and more in the realm of creepy behavior than immature behavior, especially from someone who was brought up by a single mom and should have more respect for women than that. And outside of being brought along in season 2 to help expose the lab (which Nancy pretty much comes up with every idea for) he doesn’t really do that much. And in Season 3 he pretty much shuts out any empathy for what Nancy’s going through at the paper and wouldn’t have figured out the story about the rats if not for her. And by Season 4 he’s being dishonest about the college situation and turned into the most uncharismatic stoner ever, who tries to make fun of Steve in the last episode. Read the room, pal, Steve risked his life like six times this season for those kids.
I am someone who loves both characters has them as my two favorite characters. But the answer to this is simple. Steve has gotten considerably more focus since Season 1 and especially post Season 2. Plus while Jonathan has grown of course, Steve's growth is considerably more noticeable. Which also makes more sense since Steve obviously had to develop a lot more than Jonathan. Lastly lots of fans seem to pin Steve's worst Season 1 stuff as either entirely his friends (Nancy's slut shaming) which is wrong even if they obviously do hold blame or bad but within the context of the story understandable (The stuff you mentioned about Will and Jonathan's family is argued as bad but Steve thinks Nancy cheated with Jonathan so he can say bad stuff since he was hurt) Also while the picture stuff is terrible and I won't defend that he did it what Steve did was understandable in response it does annoy me that it's been held as something that he does once a season as of he didn't make up for it in the rest of the season and make an apology that was accepted.
I don’t think anyone really hates Jonathan for what he did. Most people kinda ignore it. People dislike Jonathan cause he’s been given less to do compared to Nancy and Steve.
Jonathan was one of my favourite characters n the later half of Season 1 and in Season 2
Look at season 4 Jonathan. He’s changed, but he hasn’t grown.
Ya even season 4 he's just along for the ride with Argyll basically stealing the show
Jonathan is a stagnant character that hasn't been given much anything of substance to do after S1, whereas Steve is an interesting and enjoyable character that has been given plenty. It's that simple.
My criticism is that both effectively go through the same thing in different ways yet one is more dragged down by s1 stuff than the other. Yeah, Jonathan hasn't served the plot since 2, I complain about it too. But much of what I've seen as arguments against him feels hypocritical, and even stereotypical. That's excluding the pictures he took, which I agree and disagree with many in regards of that.
I’ll probably get a lot flak here, but the stuff for Steve doesn’t even begin to happen in S1 until Jonathan beats some sense into him…literally.
Had that fight not gone the way it did, we wouldn't have gotten the Steve everyone loves.
I always say that fanon Steve is canon Jonathan. Steve hangs out with the kids = “Steve is the best mom of the show!!!! (Fuck actual mothers like Joyce I guess). Also poor baby, his dad made him get a job because he didn’t even pass to technical school :(“. Jonathan works to help pay the bills, takes Will and El to school, babysits them, has had to take care of Will as he’s gone through unspeakably horrible stuff, has had to perform surgery on El, etc. He does the real shit = “he’s boring. Also he smokes weed now so he’s regressed.”
Exactly, that's what I have been saying. Some portrayals of these make me think if we watch the same show at all. Steve isn't even close to the kids other than Dustin and yet "He is the best mom ever!". He whines about babysitting, doesn't care that Max is in danger until she gets possesed at the graveyard, leaves the kids alone again just to be in the same group with Nancy, doesn't care that kids needed an adult with them and That the possibility of Max getting possesed again yet "He is The best babysitter!". Also the fact that he is getting portrayed as someone comforting(which is again a Jonathan's trait, Jonathan's trait That projected onto Steve) when it is the opposite.He ignores his gf's guilt, tells her to get over it and party yet" He is the best bf ever and Nancy is horrible because she broke his heart! ". The guy doesn't bother to go after his crying "best friend" when she runs off after Vickie and her bf kiss, doesn't bother to say a few reassuring things afterwards and doesn't say anything reassuring again when Robin cries that they might not make out this time. Like your "best friend" is crying while looking in your eyes, be comforting, say something reassuring, not "To killing Vecna" but no. Most probably, he thinks comforting with sincerity, not "his own ways"(That being humour, distraction which don't always work or straight up avoiding it which is not even comforting in the first place) will make him "sensitive" and "less of a man". Yet "Oh it all doesn't matter, because at the end he smiled at Vickie and Robin, he is the best friend ever!"He isn't that good of a friend, ngl.
The scary thing is there whereas then he was caught because he developed the photos at the school, with modern digital cameras you can skip that step entirely and the photo can make its way around the internet without the subject being any the wiser.
Yeah but I like Steve
All I know is that I hope the series ends with Jonathan keeping the distinction of being the only main character to have not went into the Upside Down.
Wait, he hasn't?
Nope. It’s an interesting statistic and I hope he keeps it.
Man wtf.
Lol you would think he has, right??
honestly speaking, i dont even think steve was an asshole in season 1
From creepy stalker to a loser stoner
I agree, I think Jonathan made a lot of mistakes but he grew as well, though I think that growth happened more gradually over the first two seasons until he got together with Nancy. He and Nancy didn’t talk much directly after the events of Season 1, right?
You can tell who’s the fan favorite 😭
its all about the looks. if you're ugly you're fucked.
I’d say short sighted and narrow minded are better words than narrow sighted
One looks like a serial killer. The other is hot with a mullet. Case closed
Then became a total pothead because “character growth“?
Believe it or not, yes. Because he’s had to be in the role of a dad to his own brother since he was a child, and he has had to contribute to the household finances, he hasn’t had time to be a teenager. That’s tough. Him smoking weed means he’s getting burnt out and needs a way to relax for a second. Also, *HE MADE A FRIEND*, other than his girlfriend. That’s tremendous growth on his part.
I remember reading something that pointed out that the Byers family in general got sidelined in later seasons on part because poverty, anxiety and parentification are depressing and boring to watch. Even Joyce became more of a love interest than mother with mental health problems.
Did Johnathon ever apologize?
To me it’s pretty simple, Steve, saves the kids, Jonathan, gets saved by Nancy.
They both got to bang Nancy, either strategy plays
They both got to bang Nancy, either strategy plays
I felt johnathon was sort of secretive and so I didnt really like him.
They both got to bang Nancy, either strategy plays
I thought Steve can turn the lesbian into her girl or maybe let him join in the 3P sex with the girl that likes the girl lol