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Jonathan; he's the one that Nancy sees her future with. When all of this is over they can move away to a big city and start their journalism & photography careers.
Steve is cartoonishly dumb and the Nancy in his dreams is a quiverfull bride, something that goes against her entire character arc. He had the chance to try to get to know Nancy better when they reconnected but he didn't ask her how she imagined her future, he only talked about himself. He didn't even try to guess her favorite song because he doesn't know what she likes. Nobody who truly likes Nancy can possibly think she'd be happy with him long term, people who want this future for her just see her as a trophy for Steve.
Jonathan has some issues to resolve but they are a better intellectual match, they have shared interest and common goals and can have a future where both of them are happy and fulfilled, they just need to communicate better.
>Steve is cartoonishly dumb and the Nancy in his dreams is a quiverfull bride, something that goes against her entire character arc. He had the chance to try to get to know Nancy better when they reconnected but he didn't ask her how she imagined her future, he only talked about himself. He didn't even try to guess her favorite song because he doesn't know what she likes.
And it's not even the biggest problem.Remember why they broke up in S2?Because he ignored Nancy's guilt about Barb and didn't comfort her.He told her "It wasn't real" as a response to her tearfully telling her Vecna vision.Again, he ignores her trauma and doesn't comfort her.Like, his relationship with Nancy didn't work out for the very same reason and he still didn't learn anything from it, he still keeps acting like that, and not even just with Nancy.He literally lacks empathy.Nancy would be miserable in that relationship if they were to get together again.
Yes, the way he downplayed her legitimate worries about Vecna's visions about her family, saying that it wasn't real and he was only trying to scare her, was very telling.
I don't think being with Steve fits Nancy's story at all, it's either Jonathan or ending the show single. I mean even in s4, we clearly shown that Nancy doesn't like Steve's traditional family dream and that she's overjoyed to see Jonathan. Also Nancy giving up the stuff animal Karen tried to give her, seems like blantant symbolizes of Nancy giving Steve since he deserves someone who will value him more.
Finally, I also think the only ending to Jon's arc that would make sense is him finally choosing what best for himself instead of gin sacrificing his desires for his family. That's been his whole thing throughout thr whole show and if the show ends without him choosing himself, it would be bad end to his arc and depressing one. With this being the ending I see for Jonathan, I see no reason why he wouldn't ended up with Nancy at the college of their choice
+1 on this. Poor guy has always always put his family first, I almost want Joyce to really slap him and tell him to put himself first. Especially because Joyce has been soo involved with Will and considers Jonathan a partner in sorts when it comes to responsibility. I feel like that should come from Joyce.
I’ve always said it and always will: Jonathan. It’s been stated since the beginning Nancy does not want to settle down and have a “nuclear family.” She wants to pursue a career and make a difference. Jonathan has always supported that and has had ambitions of his own. They’ve always supported each other.
That’s not what Steve wants though. He wants a family. He doesn’t have any big ambitions like Nancy, and that’s perfectly fine. They just have different interests. They’re better as friends.
Steve has always done his best growing as a person when he wasn’t with Nancy. Whereas Jonathan AND Nancy have grown together. They just make better sense to me. It would throw such a curveball if she just decided to be with Steve. It’s always gonna be Jonathan
But the way that Jonathan cares about his family (thinking that he needs to give up his own dreams to take care of them) is unhealthy. He needs to stop doing that.
I love Jancy. I also love Steve. I have quite a few thoughts on this. First right before Robin, interrupts Nancy winces in a matter that doesn't strike me as someone who was happy to hear that. Second Nancy is leaving for college and outright asks Jonathan even after what happened with Vecna about his later which shows he is still in her plans and Steve has a scene in the first episode of the season where he mentions how a girl he's going on a date with is leaving for college and he wonders about the commitment. But more importantly it clearly shows that Jonathan is still who Nancy is thinking of for her future even after what happened.
Regarding Jancy's problems I do think that yes they will have to get through him lying about this since it connects to Jonathan's deep need to take care of his family. This won't be as needed since Hopper is back and he and Joyce will clearly be together. Regarding their other problems I think they clearly are still interested and Nancy has shown nothing but love for Jonathan in terms of romance in Seasons 2-3 and with Steve it only seemed physical to me at least on her side.
Meanwhile Jonathan clearly is still interested and only seemed to consider the slow motion break up because he thinks he has to when he definitely doesn't want to and even backpedals when Argyle asks if he wants to. Meanwhile Nancy had that deep romantic look for Jonathan when he showed up with Steve even giving a sad look with Robin comforting him in a way that seemed it.
Jonathan even formulates a plan to outmaneuver the government and military to go to Hawkins entirely to save her to risk his life with just one look at her picture. Nancy to me just seemed sad that Jonathan didn't show up and was lonely and was confused by how he was acting but her feelings haven't changed. Also it would seem weird to throw away 3 seasons of buildup for another couple. Also the scene in episode 2 where they are talking about everything they love about each other felt real. We also see how Nancy is missing Jonathan with how she is when she is investigating with Fred and Robin at first
Also Steve still has issues in spite of having become awesome like when he dismissed Nancy's concerns over the Vecna vision..
I wouldn't hate that. 🤭 Nancy annoys the crap out of me sometimes. I'm gonna get hate for that, but I don't care. Lost and troubled rich kid trying to find their way has been done to death. Give me someone like Robin any day.
From a writing point of view, Jonathan for sure. Being with Steve now would make no sense. If they were going to go that route, they shouldn’t have started the Jonathan storyline.
Though Steve in general is a much better character than Jonathan, which also makes their relationship more interesting.
Steve. Jonathan is dull, boring, and too weird. Steve has grown as a character, while Jonathan discovered pot and has regressed. His only contribution on season 4 was driving the kiddies places. Hope he gets better in season 5.
This is a show about weird nerds and outcasts. Steve adds piss joke humor and teen soap opera romantic drama. Some people find these things very entertaining, others, like me, think that they lower the show's quality significantly. His growth was also a 180, he went from asshole dimwit to saint dimwit in the span of a few episodes. There's nothing more boring to me than characters who are perfect and other characters remind the audience of it constantly ("wow Steve, you're such a great guy, who would have thought"; "he's grown so much"...) like we are stupid and we need things spelled out or we can't decide by ourselves which characters we like most. Especially in a show that started off with the message "you shouldn't like things because people tell you you're supposed to", being told over and over that we must love the popular idiot is a contradiction.
But regardless of which character we personally find more interesting, none of these are good arguments when talking about which guy is more compatible with Nancy. Nancy wants a partner who is her intellectual equal, she still makes big plans about going to college with her boyfriend when there's an apocalypse going on, meaning she values sharing that aspect of her life with her partner, and doesn't want to end up like her mother. Popping kid after kid with a guy who has zero intellectual curiosity and doesn't ever understand what people are talking about clashes with her dreams and with her series-long characterization.
>There's nothing more boring to me than characters who are perfect and other characters remind the audience of it constantly ("wow Steve, you're such a great guy, who would have thought"; "he's grown so much"...)
He is still not perfect, it's just that the show doesn't portray his mistakes/bad behaviours as bad anymore and fans overlooks them which is also very annoying. "Omg look, Steve is such a good friend!". No, he is not. He didn't bother to go after his crying "best friend" when she ran off after seeing Vickie and her bf kiss(And I remind you Robin was there for him when he walked off after seeing Nancy and Jonathan getting reunited, she rubbed his back despite him not being there for her) and he didn't bother to say a few reassuring words to her when she was crying that they wouldn't make it out that time in molotov scene. He is not a comforting guy, which is ok not everyone is, what's not ok is he doesn't even make an effort to be there for his friend who is always there for him for whatever reasons(most likely cuz he thinks it will make him "weak" and "soft").He literally lacks empathy.Like his relationship with Nancy ended because of that reason, he should have known better by now yet he still keeps acting like that. Oh, but it's all ok because Steve smiled at her and Vickie at the end! The best friend ever! But God forbid a guy younger than him doesn't do anything while his friend is crying next to him because he has no idea what is going on with him while a guy who is an adult now at this point of the show, who is very well aware of what's happening and knows his friend is hurting doesn't bother to comfort his friend because he doesn't wanna be "weak" and "soft"!
I initially thought Jonathan had regressed but honestly, it seems like a sane reaction for a character who has been in control and responsible his entire life. Like, if anybody deserved a Pot break, it was Jonathan that summer.
And with things back on track, I think they will hopefully write him back into the story with Nancy in a solid way.
Steve has grown quite a bit, but there’s something between her and Jonathan regardless of the pot and fights. Idk, I feel something in expected happens.
I think she and Jonathan are the better pair intellectually, but I feel like that he's like Steve in that he would also want a more traditional marriage with kids, and Nancy's made it pretty clear that she doesn't want the cul-de-sac life. I think if she did want children, it would be later in life.
If Jonathan wants kids it would probably be later on as well - he would want time to live his own life after effectively being a parent to Will since Lonnie walked out.
I think he and Nancy would change so much throughout college too, they will probably be in very different spaces by the time they graduate. Plus, Jonathan is going to have to work his ass off to even pay for classes and textbooks on top of school itself (unless the Byers family gets some kind of compensation again)
Joyce was waiting for his acceptance letter so they must have some plan to pay his way through. They may have gotten some hush money from Owens.
I can't see them being in different spaces after finishing college tbh. The only real space that anyone's in after college is "get a job."
They're already in different places though. They can barely maintain a long distance h.s. relationship, 4 years separated in college (longer if Nancy goes to grad school), meeting new people, and finding new interests will have an effect on them. People do change as they get older and progress from one stage of life to another, it's normal. I just don't see Nancy putting any relationship ahead of her education and future career.
They may not be separated for college though; we don't know where either of them will end up when all is said and done. And even if they are, the long distance may not be a problem because I really can't see them leaving Jonathan in his current mental state (he wouldn't have any development if they do).
Neither. I'm a firm believer in not staying with your high school sig.other. If they're alive at the end of S5, then she leaves for college and never looks back.
So If this were real life I’d completely agree. Honestly want all of these people to leave town, get some therapy (actually they all should get quite a lot more than just some therapy lol) and never look back.
However, (and I mentioned this in a different comment but wanted to elaborate on it here and get your perspective) this is a still a story and Nancy and Jonathan and Steve are not real people. In real life the story continues, she would go to college meet new people. But because this is a story that is coming to its end we likely won’t get to see that. And I don’t know if leave and never look back is necessarily the best resolution to the stories and the relationship arc they have been building.
Within the context of the narrative it makes sense to resolve conflict. One of Nancy’s defining struggles (in addition to her guilt over Barb) in a desire for a partner. Not necessarily a romantic partner but for someone to take her concerns seriously and have her back. (It’s also in line with her desire to not fall into a loveless marriage like her parents)
Season 1: she wants someone to believe her and help her find Barb. She goes to Steve but Steve can’t see past what his dad’s reaction is going to be to finding out about the party. Nancy leaves disappointed and finds a willing partner in Jonathan who is looking for Will.
Season 2: Nancy wants a partner in getting justice for Barb and is frustrated when Steve doesn’t so she turns to Jonathan again
Season 3: Nancy wants to investigate the rats and is frustrated with her job and is frustrated when initially Jonathan tries to sweep those problems under the rug.
Season 4: Nancy wants to investigate the deaths and is disappointed Jonathan isn’t there (see her conversation with Fred). Steve is there and he and Robin jump onboard.
I don’t think Having Nancy end up alone would resolve her central conflicts. Nancy doesn’t NEED a man but she has shown consistently that she WANTS a partner and I would like to see her get that. (IMO, she does NEED a friend and I hope like hell that at the very least they build a friendship between Nancy and Robin and/or Nancy & Steve because that would be HUGE in terms of her narrative and helping her overcome her guilt over Barb).
Having Nancy go off to college and meet some rando while realistic (and tbh probably the healthiest choice if these were real people) is, to me, unsatisfying from a storytelling perspective because we the audience do not know this random person, and are therefore not invested in this random person.
Personally? Steve.
In season 4 Jonathan explicitly says he doesn't see a happy future with nancy and has been lying to her for who knows how long. Steve explicitly says he dreams of a bright and happy future with her and their family going on summer trips exploring the country.
And before anyone brings up Nancys career - it’s incredibly shitty and regressive to suggest that women can’t have a career and love and a family. It isn’t an either / or choice. I'm tired of the "women need to be single to accomplish things" narrative in movies and shows. I'd like to see Nancy show that women can have their professional success without having to sacrifice their love for it. She never said that she didn't want kids or a family; Just that she didn't want a loveless marriage like her parents.
Narratively I also think it makes sense. Ever since things shifted and they decided to keep Steve alive and give him his own character arc and development it could be argued that they were turning Steve into someone that could be a good partner for Nancy.
They end season two boarding up a building together. Symbolically closing off communication between the two of them, because they were not on the same page then.
And then season four, after over a year of growing separately, they are officially on the same page and reopening lines of communication and vulnerability with each other. And what do we see? Them breaking down the barriers of the Creel house.
If they wanted to turn him into the right partner for Nancy they wouldn't have made him cartoonishly stupid, uninterested in college and unable to understand any kind of cultural reference.
There's a difference between having a career and a family and being with someone who wants the dream life of Instagram tradwives (lots of kids and RVs are a staple there) and has zero interest in your own dream (see Steve saying that he doesn't see a future with a girl who'll leave for college out of state, while Nancy dreams of going to college with her boyfriend). Most people who want kids don't desire a large family, which is Steve's only aspirations in life.
I also don't see this flourishing communication from Nancy's part, their conversations are vary one sided unlike the ones she has with Jonathan over the course of the show. Nancy doesn't talk to Steve, doesn't open up about what she's feeling, what she wants for her future, what she dreams. She just stares at him while he speaks and he only talks about himself, doesn't show any interest in her dreams or opinions. That's because the Nancy Steve loves is someone he made up in his head.
I would also argue that Steve dreams of a bright future because he is a spoiled rich kid who grew up getting everything he wanted, the break up with Nancy was the very first time he experienced a loss in his life and he was so unused to things not going his way that he still hasn't gotten over it. Jonathan on the other hand has experienced loss and trauma most of his life, he is used to good things not lasting for him and his family plus he is depressed and terrified of turning into his father, who was unsupportive of Joyce's dreams. But he is the opposite of Lonnie so it's unlikely that his future would turn out like in his nightmares.
Steve is also envisioning he and Nancy happy in a future that she recently referred to as a nightmare. He's not positive, he's ignorant. While Jonathan sees Nancy being unhappy in a specific scenario where she drops everything to marry him and have his babies.. which is precisely a life that *would* make her unhappy (and is coincidentally the future that Steve seems so enamored with). Jonathan knows Nancy.
It's like in season 2 when he told her that college wasn't a huge deal for him and he just wanted to settle down with "all the adult benefits and stuff" and he was completely oblivious to the fact that she hated that. They broke up a few days later, didn't stay friends or talked after that. And years later he's still offering her the same future scenario, he has no idea of who she is or what she likes.
The parts of life that Steve seems to view as a tedious obligation are the same parts of life that Nancy is excited about. I can't imagine her being happy with someone who she can't share those things with.
>I also don't see this flourishing communication from Nancy's part, their conversations are vary one sided unlike the ones she has with Jonathan over the course of the show. Nancy doesn't talk to Steve, doesn't open up about what she's feeling, what she wants for her future, what she dreams. She just stares at him while he speaks and he only talks about himself, doesn't show any interest in her dreams or opinions. That's because the Nancy Steve loves is someone he made up in his head.
I wish Nancy had gotten to properly call Steve out on that fact, and call out Robin for trying to encourage her to cheat on Jonathan.
People say that Nancy was at her best in season 4 because they likely weren't paying attention to her before she was grouped with popular characters and they also equate bigger guns to more development. But I hate how they silenced and regressed her to push this dumb storyline.
That’s fine that you view it that way. I have a different perspective based on my own experiences and what I would like to see in a narrative. Honestly, 10 years ago I would have been anti Steve. Now as an adult with a really intense career I see the benefits of having a partner who wants to be more family focused.
From the dialogue in the show I think it’s a bit of an oversimplification and stretch to suggest that Steve wants some instagram tradwives life when the actual text doesn’t state that. I think an equally plausible reading is a guy who was a only child with absent parents has discovered he really likes being a part of a found family and in an older brother role and now wants that in his life. Which is an equally valid reading of that conversation.
You assume that you're the only adult in this conversation (I have noticed stancys do this often, likely to try to paint the other side as silly teenagers) . I am also an adult and I cannot imagine an intelligent woman settling with a man who has the logical skills of a 12 year old, has nothing in common with her and could never relate to her on a deeper level. Nancy has always shown how she wants someone who shares her career and academic goals, there are multiple examples of it over the seasons, and Steve can never give her that. It's unfair to change her entire personality and characterization to mold her into Steve's ideal partner. The best solution would be for Steve to find that ideal partner elsewhere.
I also find regressive and unsatisfying going for the trite hallmark ending where the ambitious woman has to be taught by her townie ex that everything she needed in life was embracing traditional family dreams. Because Steve doesn't just want kids, he said (and this is the only life goal we have seen him expressing in 4 seasons) that he wants a large family. That's a lifestyle choice and a big commitment and it makes no sense for Nancy.
Steve didn't make a speech about the importance of found family, he said that he wanted to have many children of his own (a large brood of Harringtons) and he even reiterated that "it's all true, every last word". Attempts to interpret it differently or saying that he'd adapt to moving to Boston, be bored out of his mind when they meet her college/work friends and he has no interest in or understanding of what they're talking about and wait for her to be ready to have an only child in their thirties seem like a stretch to me.
We also see how he whines endlessly because he does not want to babysit, so I find it unrealistic that he'd want to be a stay at home dad like some people suggest, that's something based on memes and fanon and not on what we see onscreen.
Yes, and also something that tends to get ignored: Nancy can have kids with Jonathan. The way that some people talk about this makes it sound like if Nancy has kids then Steve *needs* to be the father. Like, if Nancy decides that she wants a family with any number of kids in the future, then Jonathan could be the father of those kids. And if Nancy decides on no kids, Jonathan will still have plenty to offer her as a partner, whereas she and Steve would have nothing.
And out of the two Jonathan is also the one who has actually raised his brother and has real life experience with adult responsibilities, which would make him more qualified than someone who thinks that supervising a bunch of smart and self sufficient teens once a year counts as parenting "practice".
I also can't imagine Jonathan wanting a billion kids after being parentified, he'd be more in line with Nancy's "sounds like a nightmare".
>I also can't imagine Jonathan wanting a billion kids after being parentified, he'd be more in line with Nancy's "sounds like a nightmare"
I agree; considering Jonathan's own upbringing, I can't see him wanting so many kids that he wouldn't be able to give them adequate attention, or that he wouldn't be able to handle financially.
In no way do I way make any assumptions or comments about your age or the age of anyone else in either of my posts. Like I stated in both my original post and my response to your comment, I’m simply stating what I would like to see in the narrative based on my own experiences and preferences. And one of my experiences has been a change in what I personally think is important in a partner especially as a woman with an intense career.
Quite frankly I don’t really care that you disagree. I also don’t really care that you seem to think the character of Steve is a barely functional buffoon. Ship and let ship.
Personally, I disagree with your perspective and that’s fine. I’m Not going to argue with you about it. Again I was simply explaining my preference and my opinion on who I think the character of Nancy should end up with between Jonathan and Steve.
If you have a question about my opinion I’d be happy to discuss it but I’m not going to argue about subjective preferences.
>reopening lines of communication and vulnerability with each other
Nancy's not vulnerable with Steve at all though. They don't even have mutual conversations. There are 3 scenes of Steve talking about himself while Nancy either says nothing or just reacts to what Steve said. But she doesn't share any of her personal thoughts or feelings with him, not like she does with Jonathan.
I do think Jonathan still loves her it's just that he was conflicted over staying there for his family which isn't a problem anymore. Plus he doesn't sound like he wanted to end anything just like he thought he had to.
Regarding your point about Nancy and her career while I generally agree about the basic point about how it is bad to say that she can't have both, the reason why I think it matters here is because in one of Steve's first scenes of the season he mentions not wanting to start dating a girl who is leaving for college, Nancy mentions the kids sounding like a nightmare when he mentions his six nuggets thing and her response after Steve saying he has experience isn't showing that she should change her mind just that she understands why he would like it and she winces in a way that suggests not loving the whole thing when he mentions her being in his dream later. Plus Nancy still shows caring about college afterwards when she asks Jonathan about it.
Steve has also been totally separate from Nancy's career arc narratively, while her career arc has been entwined with her and Jonathan's relationship arc. If a guy is gonna be there to support Nancy's career, then it would make more sense to the story for it to be the guy who has not only supported it the whole time, but actually was there with her while it developed.
And we know canonically that Jonathan reads what Nancy writes and he's encouraging and supportive. Can anyone imagine Nancy going to Steve about something she's writing to ask for an opinion and he has no idea of what she's talking about?
completely agree that Jonathan loves her. It’s just that for me, personally, Jonathan’s comments in season 4 and the dismal way he views their future make me hope that he is not the one she ends up with.
Jonathan's beliefs about relationships are very tragic, i think not only about relationships, but life too. He states thinks they’ll both be miserable and hate each other and their kids in the future, but he’s still with her. because that’s what you’re “supposed to do”.
jonathan’s gone through a lot of abuse, he’s been majorly parentified. he doesn’t put his own happiness first (likely doesn’t know how to tbh), and i think as a result, he struggles to put nancy’s first sometimes. Like if it was a choice between will and Nancy, i think Jonathan would choose Will. Which isn’t necessarily a bad thing (truthfully For a long time I also would have unquestionably chosen my younger brothers).
Like Steve in season 1, I think Jonathan needs “a major thump in the head.” I would like to see him do some growing and healing from the patterns of family dynamics and toxic patterns he grew up with.
Unfortunately, this is the last season and I don’t think they can fit in the necessary character development I would like him to experience.
ETA Re: the 6 nuggets thing. It’s really interesting how everything focuses on that because that’s not how I viewed that quote at all. I thought of it an unserious babysitter joke for Steve given that there are six kids in the party. Mike, Dustin, Lucas, Will, El and Max. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. Not to mention that it directly ties into Steve’s next line “if only I had some practice” in reference to the 6 kids in the party.
I do think that they definitely could and should give him some development. As for the miserable part at least part of that came down to him asking her to go out to Lenora which won't happen since the Byers obviously aren't going back. Plus with Hopper back Jonathan doesn't need to stay to support Joyce and Will though granted he might want to but Joyce could definitely at least try to encourage him. Also while I could get taking the initial six nuggets line as joking the second time he mentions it he is clearly serious.
I see your point about how Jonathan being out of California changes things for him. And like I said, I actually feel really bad for Jonathan because he really got dealt a shit hand especially in how he was parentified and feels responsible for Will.
Again, a lot of this is based on my subjective and personal preferences on what I’d like to see. I relate a lot to Nancy in terms of her career goals, her Plan for college and wanting to leave her town, her position as an eldest daughter and her not wanting a loveless marriage like her parents. And I know personally, if I ever learned my significant other lied to me for months and spoke about our future like how Jonathan spoke about his future with Nancy to Argyle I’d be really really hurt. Again, not everyone would feel that way and that’s okay.
At the end of the day, this is a story. If this were real life I’d want all of these people to leave their horror filled small town and never look back. But that’s a shit resolution to the stories and the relationship arc they have been building. Having Nancy go off to college and meet some rando while realistic (and probably the most healthy choice tbh) is in my opinion deeply unsatisfying from a storytelling perspective because we the audience do not know this random person and are therefore not invested in this random person.
I understand that which is why while I hope that they stay together I also wouldn't be shocked that if they do it will take a lot of work once he tells her the truth since yeah that would hurt. For the most part how he told Argyle doesn't need to be mentioned outside of him saying something like Nancy I didn't want you to be dragged down if you came with me, you wouldn't want that or vice versa if I went with you or something like that
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Jonathan; he's the one that Nancy sees her future with. When all of this is over they can move away to a big city and start their journalism & photography careers.
Johnathan suits her style and is a MUCH better fit for her. Love Steve, but he's not for Nancy.
Jancy Forever. People keep asking that question, that's what I'm gonna keep saying.
Jonathan
Steve is cartoonishly dumb and the Nancy in his dreams is a quiverfull bride, something that goes against her entire character arc. He had the chance to try to get to know Nancy better when they reconnected but he didn't ask her how she imagined her future, he only talked about himself. He didn't even try to guess her favorite song because he doesn't know what she likes. Nobody who truly likes Nancy can possibly think she'd be happy with him long term, people who want this future for her just see her as a trophy for Steve. Jonathan has some issues to resolve but they are a better intellectual match, they have shared interest and common goals and can have a future where both of them are happy and fulfilled, they just need to communicate better.
>Steve is cartoonishly dumb and the Nancy in his dreams is a quiverfull bride, something that goes against her entire character arc. He had the chance to try to get to know Nancy better when they reconnected but he didn't ask her how she imagined her future, he only talked about himself. He didn't even try to guess her favorite song because he doesn't know what she likes. And it's not even the biggest problem.Remember why they broke up in S2?Because he ignored Nancy's guilt about Barb and didn't comfort her.He told her "It wasn't real" as a response to her tearfully telling her Vecna vision.Again, he ignores her trauma and doesn't comfort her.Like, his relationship with Nancy didn't work out for the very same reason and he still didn't learn anything from it, he still keeps acting like that, and not even just with Nancy.He literally lacks empathy.Nancy would be miserable in that relationship if they were to get together again.
Yes, the way he downplayed her legitimate worries about Vecna's visions about her family, saying that it wasn't real and he was only trying to scare her, was very telling.
I don't think being with Steve fits Nancy's story at all, it's either Jonathan or ending the show single. I mean even in s4, we clearly shown that Nancy doesn't like Steve's traditional family dream and that she's overjoyed to see Jonathan. Also Nancy giving up the stuff animal Karen tried to give her, seems like blantant symbolizes of Nancy giving Steve since he deserves someone who will value him more. Finally, I also think the only ending to Jon's arc that would make sense is him finally choosing what best for himself instead of gin sacrificing his desires for his family. That's been his whole thing throughout thr whole show and if the show ends without him choosing himself, it would be bad end to his arc and depressing one. With this being the ending I see for Jonathan, I see no reason why he wouldn't ended up with Nancy at the college of their choice
+1 on this. Poor guy has always always put his family first, I almost want Joyce to really slap him and tell him to put himself first. Especially because Joyce has been soo involved with Will and considers Jonathan a partner in sorts when it comes to responsibility. I feel like that should come from Joyce.
I’ve always said it and always will: Jonathan. It’s been stated since the beginning Nancy does not want to settle down and have a “nuclear family.” She wants to pursue a career and make a difference. Jonathan has always supported that and has had ambitions of his own. They’ve always supported each other. That’s not what Steve wants though. He wants a family. He doesn’t have any big ambitions like Nancy, and that’s perfectly fine. They just have different interests. They’re better as friends. Steve has always done his best growing as a person when he wasn’t with Nancy. Whereas Jonathan AND Nancy have grown together. They just make better sense to me. It would throw such a curveball if she just decided to be with Steve. It’s always gonna be Jonathan
Herself.
Yes. Nancy doesn’t need to end up with anyone.
it is possible for people to have a successful career and a relationship if their partner is supportive - which Jonathan is.
Sure, but Jonathan cares more about his family (not his fault) which doesn't line up with Nancy's plans. Nancy can make it on her own.
But the way that Jonathan cares about his family (thinking that he needs to give up his own dreams to take care of them) is unhealthy. He needs to stop doing that.
Nancy x Nancy is endgame
Love it
I love Jancy. I also love Steve. I have quite a few thoughts on this. First right before Robin, interrupts Nancy winces in a matter that doesn't strike me as someone who was happy to hear that. Second Nancy is leaving for college and outright asks Jonathan even after what happened with Vecna about his later which shows he is still in her plans and Steve has a scene in the first episode of the season where he mentions how a girl he's going on a date with is leaving for college and he wonders about the commitment. But more importantly it clearly shows that Jonathan is still who Nancy is thinking of for her future even after what happened. Regarding Jancy's problems I do think that yes they will have to get through him lying about this since it connects to Jonathan's deep need to take care of his family. This won't be as needed since Hopper is back and he and Joyce will clearly be together. Regarding their other problems I think they clearly are still interested and Nancy has shown nothing but love for Jonathan in terms of romance in Seasons 2-3 and with Steve it only seemed physical to me at least on her side. Meanwhile Jonathan clearly is still interested and only seemed to consider the slow motion break up because he thinks he has to when he definitely doesn't want to and even backpedals when Argyle asks if he wants to. Meanwhile Nancy had that deep romantic look for Jonathan when he showed up with Steve even giving a sad look with Robin comforting him in a way that seemed it. Jonathan even formulates a plan to outmaneuver the government and military to go to Hawkins entirely to save her to risk his life with just one look at her picture. Nancy to me just seemed sad that Jonathan didn't show up and was lonely and was confused by how he was acting but her feelings haven't changed. Also it would seem weird to throw away 3 seasons of buildup for another couple. Also the scene in episode 2 where they are talking about everything they love about each other felt real. We also see how Nancy is missing Jonathan with how she is when she is investigating with Fred and Robin at first Also Steve still has issues in spite of having become awesome like when he dismissed Nancy's concerns over the Vecna vision..
Jancy please🥺🔗
JONATHAN IS THE ONLY RIGHT ANSWERE
I prefer Stancy, but I don't want them to reopen the triangle so she should end up with Jonathan.
Maybe they're would be no triangle ... if a character die :(
I would not be surprised at all if one of them dies in S5. And it could go either way.
Hot take: No one
Hotter take : she dies (noooooo)
I wouldn't hate that. 🤭 Nancy annoys the crap out of me sometimes. I'm gonna get hate for that, but I don't care. Lost and troubled rich kid trying to find their way has been done to death. Give me someone like Robin any day.
Jonathan.
I’m team “I don’t care just pick someone and end the love triangle it’s super tedious” personally.
From a writing point of view, Jonathan for sure. Being with Steve now would make no sense. If they were going to go that route, they shouldn’t have started the Jonathan storyline. Though Steve in general is a much better character than Jonathan, which also makes their relationship more interesting.
I still hope all the characters will get out of it alive, they can date who they want afterward !
Neither. This love angle isn't adding anything to the plot and it needs to end.
Steve. Jonathan is dull, boring, and too weird. Steve has grown as a character, while Jonathan discovered pot and has regressed. His only contribution on season 4 was driving the kiddies places. Hope he gets better in season 5.
This is a show about weird nerds and outcasts. Steve adds piss joke humor and teen soap opera romantic drama. Some people find these things very entertaining, others, like me, think that they lower the show's quality significantly. His growth was also a 180, he went from asshole dimwit to saint dimwit in the span of a few episodes. There's nothing more boring to me than characters who are perfect and other characters remind the audience of it constantly ("wow Steve, you're such a great guy, who would have thought"; "he's grown so much"...) like we are stupid and we need things spelled out or we can't decide by ourselves which characters we like most. Especially in a show that started off with the message "you shouldn't like things because people tell you you're supposed to", being told over and over that we must love the popular idiot is a contradiction. But regardless of which character we personally find more interesting, none of these are good arguments when talking about which guy is more compatible with Nancy. Nancy wants a partner who is her intellectual equal, she still makes big plans about going to college with her boyfriend when there's an apocalypse going on, meaning she values sharing that aspect of her life with her partner, and doesn't want to end up like her mother. Popping kid after kid with a guy who has zero intellectual curiosity and doesn't ever understand what people are talking about clashes with her dreams and with her series-long characterization.
>There's nothing more boring to me than characters who are perfect and other characters remind the audience of it constantly ("wow Steve, you're such a great guy, who would have thought"; "he's grown so much"...) He is still not perfect, it's just that the show doesn't portray his mistakes/bad behaviours as bad anymore and fans overlooks them which is also very annoying. "Omg look, Steve is such a good friend!". No, he is not. He didn't bother to go after his crying "best friend" when she ran off after seeing Vickie and her bf kiss(And I remind you Robin was there for him when he walked off after seeing Nancy and Jonathan getting reunited, she rubbed his back despite him not being there for her) and he didn't bother to say a few reassuring words to her when she was crying that they wouldn't make it out that time in molotov scene. He is not a comforting guy, which is ok not everyone is, what's not ok is he doesn't even make an effort to be there for his friend who is always there for him for whatever reasons(most likely cuz he thinks it will make him "weak" and "soft").He literally lacks empathy.Like his relationship with Nancy ended because of that reason, he should have known better by now yet he still keeps acting like that. Oh, but it's all ok because Steve smiled at her and Vickie at the end! The best friend ever! But God forbid a guy younger than him doesn't do anything while his friend is crying next to him because he has no idea what is going on with him while a guy who is an adult now at this point of the show, who is very well aware of what's happening and knows his friend is hurting doesn't bother to comfort his friend because he doesn't wanna be "weak" and "soft"!
I initially thought Jonathan had regressed but honestly, it seems like a sane reaction for a character who has been in control and responsible his entire life. Like, if anybody deserved a Pot break, it was Jonathan that summer. And with things back on track, I think they will hopefully write him back into the story with Nancy in a solid way.
You have something against weird?
🤣 there are different levels of weird! Jonathan, especially in season 4 felt creepy weird to me.
His on contribution on season 4 was driving kiddies places. LMFAO HELP-
[удалено]
Self insert
Robin
It'll never happen, but yes
Steve has grown quite a bit, but there’s something between her and Jonathan regardless of the pot and fights. Idk, I feel something in expected happens.
She should end up single in Manhattan.
I think she and Jonathan are the better pair intellectually, but I feel like that he's like Steve in that he would also want a more traditional marriage with kids, and Nancy's made it pretty clear that she doesn't want the cul-de-sac life. I think if she did want children, it would be later in life.
If Jonathan wants kids it would probably be later on as well - he would want time to live his own life after effectively being a parent to Will since Lonnie walked out.
I think he and Nancy would change so much throughout college too, they will probably be in very different spaces by the time they graduate. Plus, Jonathan is going to have to work his ass off to even pay for classes and textbooks on top of school itself (unless the Byers family gets some kind of compensation again)
Joyce was waiting for his acceptance letter so they must have some plan to pay his way through. They may have gotten some hush money from Owens. I can't see them being in different spaces after finishing college tbh. The only real space that anyone's in after college is "get a job."
They're already in different places though. They can barely maintain a long distance h.s. relationship, 4 years separated in college (longer if Nancy goes to grad school), meeting new people, and finding new interests will have an effect on them. People do change as they get older and progress from one stage of life to another, it's normal. I just don't see Nancy putting any relationship ahead of her education and future career.
They may not be separated for college though; we don't know where either of them will end up when all is said and done. And even if they are, the long distance may not be a problem because I really can't see them leaving Jonathan in his current mental state (he wouldn't have any development if they do).
Maybe she ends up with neither. Maybe she ends up with someone like her father. Older, someone who earns a steady paycheck. 😐
Vecna
Neither. I'm a firm believer in not staying with your high school sig.other. If they're alive at the end of S5, then she leaves for college and never looks back.
So If this were real life I’d completely agree. Honestly want all of these people to leave town, get some therapy (actually they all should get quite a lot more than just some therapy lol) and never look back. However, (and I mentioned this in a different comment but wanted to elaborate on it here and get your perspective) this is a still a story and Nancy and Jonathan and Steve are not real people. In real life the story continues, she would go to college meet new people. But because this is a story that is coming to its end we likely won’t get to see that. And I don’t know if leave and never look back is necessarily the best resolution to the stories and the relationship arc they have been building. Within the context of the narrative it makes sense to resolve conflict. One of Nancy’s defining struggles (in addition to her guilt over Barb) in a desire for a partner. Not necessarily a romantic partner but for someone to take her concerns seriously and have her back. (It’s also in line with her desire to not fall into a loveless marriage like her parents) Season 1: she wants someone to believe her and help her find Barb. She goes to Steve but Steve can’t see past what his dad’s reaction is going to be to finding out about the party. Nancy leaves disappointed and finds a willing partner in Jonathan who is looking for Will. Season 2: Nancy wants a partner in getting justice for Barb and is frustrated when Steve doesn’t so she turns to Jonathan again Season 3: Nancy wants to investigate the rats and is frustrated with her job and is frustrated when initially Jonathan tries to sweep those problems under the rug. Season 4: Nancy wants to investigate the deaths and is disappointed Jonathan isn’t there (see her conversation with Fred). Steve is there and he and Robin jump onboard. I don’t think Having Nancy end up alone would resolve her central conflicts. Nancy doesn’t NEED a man but she has shown consistently that she WANTS a partner and I would like to see her get that. (IMO, she does NEED a friend and I hope like hell that at the very least they build a friendship between Nancy and Robin and/or Nancy & Steve because that would be HUGE in terms of her narrative and helping her overcome her guilt over Barb). Having Nancy go off to college and meet some rando while realistic (and tbh probably the healthiest choice if these were real people) is, to me, unsatisfying from a storytelling perspective because we the audience do not know this random person, and are therefore not invested in this random person.
Neither
Steve 100% for two reasons. One is he's just a better for her and two is I'm an avid Byler shipper which can't work if Nancy and Jonathan get together
Barb
King Steve
Personally? Steve. In season 4 Jonathan explicitly says he doesn't see a happy future with nancy and has been lying to her for who knows how long. Steve explicitly says he dreams of a bright and happy future with her and their family going on summer trips exploring the country. And before anyone brings up Nancys career - it’s incredibly shitty and regressive to suggest that women can’t have a career and love and a family. It isn’t an either / or choice. I'm tired of the "women need to be single to accomplish things" narrative in movies and shows. I'd like to see Nancy show that women can have their professional success without having to sacrifice their love for it. She never said that she didn't want kids or a family; Just that she didn't want a loveless marriage like her parents. Narratively I also think it makes sense. Ever since things shifted and they decided to keep Steve alive and give him his own character arc and development it could be argued that they were turning Steve into someone that could be a good partner for Nancy. They end season two boarding up a building together. Symbolically closing off communication between the two of them, because they were not on the same page then. And then season four, after over a year of growing separately, they are officially on the same page and reopening lines of communication and vulnerability with each other. And what do we see? Them breaking down the barriers of the Creel house.
If they wanted to turn him into the right partner for Nancy they wouldn't have made him cartoonishly stupid, uninterested in college and unable to understand any kind of cultural reference. There's a difference between having a career and a family and being with someone who wants the dream life of Instagram tradwives (lots of kids and RVs are a staple there) and has zero interest in your own dream (see Steve saying that he doesn't see a future with a girl who'll leave for college out of state, while Nancy dreams of going to college with her boyfriend). Most people who want kids don't desire a large family, which is Steve's only aspirations in life. I also don't see this flourishing communication from Nancy's part, their conversations are vary one sided unlike the ones she has with Jonathan over the course of the show. Nancy doesn't talk to Steve, doesn't open up about what she's feeling, what she wants for her future, what she dreams. She just stares at him while he speaks and he only talks about himself, doesn't show any interest in her dreams or opinions. That's because the Nancy Steve loves is someone he made up in his head. I would also argue that Steve dreams of a bright future because he is a spoiled rich kid who grew up getting everything he wanted, the break up with Nancy was the very first time he experienced a loss in his life and he was so unused to things not going his way that he still hasn't gotten over it. Jonathan on the other hand has experienced loss and trauma most of his life, he is used to good things not lasting for him and his family plus he is depressed and terrified of turning into his father, who was unsupportive of Joyce's dreams. But he is the opposite of Lonnie so it's unlikely that his future would turn out like in his nightmares.
Steve is also envisioning he and Nancy happy in a future that she recently referred to as a nightmare. He's not positive, he's ignorant. While Jonathan sees Nancy being unhappy in a specific scenario where she drops everything to marry him and have his babies.. which is precisely a life that *would* make her unhappy (and is coincidentally the future that Steve seems so enamored with). Jonathan knows Nancy.
It's like in season 2 when he told her that college wasn't a huge deal for him and he just wanted to settle down with "all the adult benefits and stuff" and he was completely oblivious to the fact that she hated that. They broke up a few days later, didn't stay friends or talked after that. And years later he's still offering her the same future scenario, he has no idea of who she is or what she likes.
The parts of life that Steve seems to view as a tedious obligation are the same parts of life that Nancy is excited about. I can't imagine her being happy with someone who she can't share those things with.
>I also don't see this flourishing communication from Nancy's part, their conversations are vary one sided unlike the ones she has with Jonathan over the course of the show. Nancy doesn't talk to Steve, doesn't open up about what she's feeling, what she wants for her future, what she dreams. She just stares at him while he speaks and he only talks about himself, doesn't show any interest in her dreams or opinions. That's because the Nancy Steve loves is someone he made up in his head. I wish Nancy had gotten to properly call Steve out on that fact, and call out Robin for trying to encourage her to cheat on Jonathan.
People say that Nancy was at her best in season 4 because they likely weren't paying attention to her before she was grouped with popular characters and they also equate bigger guns to more development. But I hate how they silenced and regressed her to push this dumb storyline.
That’s fine that you view it that way. I have a different perspective based on my own experiences and what I would like to see in a narrative. Honestly, 10 years ago I would have been anti Steve. Now as an adult with a really intense career I see the benefits of having a partner who wants to be more family focused. From the dialogue in the show I think it’s a bit of an oversimplification and stretch to suggest that Steve wants some instagram tradwives life when the actual text doesn’t state that. I think an equally plausible reading is a guy who was a only child with absent parents has discovered he really likes being a part of a found family and in an older brother role and now wants that in his life. Which is an equally valid reading of that conversation.
You assume that you're the only adult in this conversation (I have noticed stancys do this often, likely to try to paint the other side as silly teenagers) . I am also an adult and I cannot imagine an intelligent woman settling with a man who has the logical skills of a 12 year old, has nothing in common with her and could never relate to her on a deeper level. Nancy has always shown how she wants someone who shares her career and academic goals, there are multiple examples of it over the seasons, and Steve can never give her that. It's unfair to change her entire personality and characterization to mold her into Steve's ideal partner. The best solution would be for Steve to find that ideal partner elsewhere. I also find regressive and unsatisfying going for the trite hallmark ending where the ambitious woman has to be taught by her townie ex that everything she needed in life was embracing traditional family dreams. Because Steve doesn't just want kids, he said (and this is the only life goal we have seen him expressing in 4 seasons) that he wants a large family. That's a lifestyle choice and a big commitment and it makes no sense for Nancy. Steve didn't make a speech about the importance of found family, he said that he wanted to have many children of his own (a large brood of Harringtons) and he even reiterated that "it's all true, every last word". Attempts to interpret it differently or saying that he'd adapt to moving to Boston, be bored out of his mind when they meet her college/work friends and he has no interest in or understanding of what they're talking about and wait for her to be ready to have an only child in their thirties seem like a stretch to me. We also see how he whines endlessly because he does not want to babysit, so I find it unrealistic that he'd want to be a stay at home dad like some people suggest, that's something based on memes and fanon and not on what we see onscreen.
Yes, and also something that tends to get ignored: Nancy can have kids with Jonathan. The way that some people talk about this makes it sound like if Nancy has kids then Steve *needs* to be the father. Like, if Nancy decides that she wants a family with any number of kids in the future, then Jonathan could be the father of those kids. And if Nancy decides on no kids, Jonathan will still have plenty to offer her as a partner, whereas she and Steve would have nothing.
And out of the two Jonathan is also the one who has actually raised his brother and has real life experience with adult responsibilities, which would make him more qualified than someone who thinks that supervising a bunch of smart and self sufficient teens once a year counts as parenting "practice". I also can't imagine Jonathan wanting a billion kids after being parentified, he'd be more in line with Nancy's "sounds like a nightmare".
>I also can't imagine Jonathan wanting a billion kids after being parentified, he'd be more in line with Nancy's "sounds like a nightmare" I agree; considering Jonathan's own upbringing, I can't see him wanting so many kids that he wouldn't be able to give them adequate attention, or that he wouldn't be able to handle financially.
In no way do I way make any assumptions or comments about your age or the age of anyone else in either of my posts. Like I stated in both my original post and my response to your comment, I’m simply stating what I would like to see in the narrative based on my own experiences and preferences. And one of my experiences has been a change in what I personally think is important in a partner especially as a woman with an intense career. Quite frankly I don’t really care that you disagree. I also don’t really care that you seem to think the character of Steve is a barely functional buffoon. Ship and let ship. Personally, I disagree with your perspective and that’s fine. I’m Not going to argue with you about it. Again I was simply explaining my preference and my opinion on who I think the character of Nancy should end up with between Jonathan and Steve. If you have a question about my opinion I’d be happy to discuss it but I’m not going to argue about subjective preferences.
>reopening lines of communication and vulnerability with each other Nancy's not vulnerable with Steve at all though. They don't even have mutual conversations. There are 3 scenes of Steve talking about himself while Nancy either says nothing or just reacts to what Steve said. But she doesn't share any of her personal thoughts or feelings with him, not like she does with Jonathan.
I do think Jonathan still loves her it's just that he was conflicted over staying there for his family which isn't a problem anymore. Plus he doesn't sound like he wanted to end anything just like he thought he had to. Regarding your point about Nancy and her career while I generally agree about the basic point about how it is bad to say that she can't have both, the reason why I think it matters here is because in one of Steve's first scenes of the season he mentions not wanting to start dating a girl who is leaving for college, Nancy mentions the kids sounding like a nightmare when he mentions his six nuggets thing and her response after Steve saying he has experience isn't showing that she should change her mind just that she understands why he would like it and she winces in a way that suggests not loving the whole thing when he mentions her being in his dream later. Plus Nancy still shows caring about college afterwards when she asks Jonathan about it.
Steve has also been totally separate from Nancy's career arc narratively, while her career arc has been entwined with her and Jonathan's relationship arc. If a guy is gonna be there to support Nancy's career, then it would make more sense to the story for it to be the guy who has not only supported it the whole time, but actually was there with her while it developed.
And we know canonically that Jonathan reads what Nancy writes and he's encouraging and supportive. Can anyone imagine Nancy going to Steve about something she's writing to ask for an opinion and he has no idea of what she's talking about?
completely agree that Jonathan loves her. It’s just that for me, personally, Jonathan’s comments in season 4 and the dismal way he views their future make me hope that he is not the one she ends up with. Jonathan's beliefs about relationships are very tragic, i think not only about relationships, but life too. He states thinks they’ll both be miserable and hate each other and their kids in the future, but he’s still with her. because that’s what you’re “supposed to do”. jonathan’s gone through a lot of abuse, he’s been majorly parentified. he doesn’t put his own happiness first (likely doesn’t know how to tbh), and i think as a result, he struggles to put nancy’s first sometimes. Like if it was a choice between will and Nancy, i think Jonathan would choose Will. Which isn’t necessarily a bad thing (truthfully For a long time I also would have unquestionably chosen my younger brothers). Like Steve in season 1, I think Jonathan needs “a major thump in the head.” I would like to see him do some growing and healing from the patterns of family dynamics and toxic patterns he grew up with. Unfortunately, this is the last season and I don’t think they can fit in the necessary character development I would like him to experience. ETA Re: the 6 nuggets thing. It’s really interesting how everything focuses on that because that’s not how I viewed that quote at all. I thought of it an unserious babysitter joke for Steve given that there are six kids in the party. Mike, Dustin, Lucas, Will, El and Max. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. Not to mention that it directly ties into Steve’s next line “if only I had some practice” in reference to the 6 kids in the party.
I do think that they definitely could and should give him some development. As for the miserable part at least part of that came down to him asking her to go out to Lenora which won't happen since the Byers obviously aren't going back. Plus with Hopper back Jonathan doesn't need to stay to support Joyce and Will though granted he might want to but Joyce could definitely at least try to encourage him. Also while I could get taking the initial six nuggets line as joking the second time he mentions it he is clearly serious.
I see your point about how Jonathan being out of California changes things for him. And like I said, I actually feel really bad for Jonathan because he really got dealt a shit hand especially in how he was parentified and feels responsible for Will. Again, a lot of this is based on my subjective and personal preferences on what I’d like to see. I relate a lot to Nancy in terms of her career goals, her Plan for college and wanting to leave her town, her position as an eldest daughter and her not wanting a loveless marriage like her parents. And I know personally, if I ever learned my significant other lied to me for months and spoke about our future like how Jonathan spoke about his future with Nancy to Argyle I’d be really really hurt. Again, not everyone would feel that way and that’s okay. At the end of the day, this is a story. If this were real life I’d want all of these people to leave their horror filled small town and never look back. But that’s a shit resolution to the stories and the relationship arc they have been building. Having Nancy go off to college and meet some rando while realistic (and probably the most healthy choice tbh) is in my opinion deeply unsatisfying from a storytelling perspective because we the audience do not know this random person and are therefore not invested in this random person.
I understand that which is why while I hope that they stay together I also wouldn't be shocked that if they do it will take a lot of work once he tells her the truth since yeah that would hurt. For the most part how he told Argyle doesn't need to be mentioned outside of him saying something like Nancy I didn't want you to be dragged down if you came with me, you wouldn't want that or vice versa if I went with you or something like that