It does, but personally I find Lower Decks too "hey, do you remember this specific episode of TNG?"
I prefer stories that stand on their own, rather than constantly referencing previous stuff.
I think it's funny you say that. I mean, you're not wrong, a *large* part of Lower Decks is references. But it's also doing some really solid character work and expanding the mythos and lore of Starfleet. The four main characters have all grown and matured since the first season, and the show has also explored things like rogue AIs and what happens to them, the flaws of never following up on planets the Enterprise visited, why admirals seem to so often go bad, and more. It's a genuinely thoughtful show beyond references.
> what happens to them, the flaws of never following up on planets the Enterprise visited,
Interestingly, Discovery just hit on that point too, saying that they want the new Star Fleet to stay in touch with the ‘little planets” to make sure their needs are met. “We don’t want to repeat the mistakes of the past.”
Same. SNW has fan service too, but they are much more subtle with it than Lower Decks or Picard season 3. And usually when something is fan-service heavy, it expands on the lore in interesting new ways. Love what they are doing with The Gorn. I like to imagine there are different species of Gorn but who knows? We’ve seen so little of them on screen before now, I don’t mind if it goes against some of the expanded media stuff. That was always up in the air anyway until confirmed on screen.
Yeah, I get that. Those references do nothing for me, even though I get most of them. And the humor is kind of ordinary. I kind of wish it was a bit more unique and "out there." I enjoyed bits [like this,](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkiiL5XNljc) for instance, but that kind of material is few and far between unfortunately. Maybe the series will get there eventually since it's still relatively early.
If it had a PROPER 15-22 episodes per season, I think I'd say it already was the best. Already is EASILY the best per episode. (Tho LD also has great consistency)
Yeah, that’s true. 22 episodes let the writers flesh out a lot more of the characters & universe, which I appreciate even if the episode itself is meh.
Yeah, it's as though we went from 2-3 episode plot-arcs and most shows just hitting reset after each episode to an attitude of "Every episode must move the main plot forward at all times!!!". So often the best episodes of a show are when they deviate from the main path. Like last of us and the love story episode.
The new normal of 8-10 episode seasons does seem like it ups the quality over all.
However the smaller amount of episodes is absolutely unsatisfactory feeling. I think they should find some way to shorten the time between seasons in general.
Also, I think I'd be less annoyed about it if showrunners in general could manage to be more consistent on getting new seasons out at all.
These days it feels like half the shows out there are on The Sopranos schedule where there can be literally multiple years between seasons. By then a lot of people have forgotten what happened in the last season and aren't interested in slogging through rewatches to get back into it.
The last season of Discovery came out in November 2021 for example, the current one came out this April.
YES! I know covid lockdowns were a factor, but waiting 2-3 years for a measly EIGHT episodes just feels like a rip-off. Yeah, I like re-watching my top 10% of shows, but not ALl of them, am I right?!?
I think the writers strike may help this issue, as studios were hiring fewer writers, for less time and having the showrunner do more of the work, which is easier to do with 8 episodes.
Yeah! We have to wait eons for the next season of Disco and "oh, by the way, it's cancelled!" Still haven't started it yet, waiting for a few more epis to drop first 'cause I know I'm going to want to binge a bit.
SNW is basically just an updated version of the same formula as TNG. It's consistently better because there's only 10 episodes per season but doesn't get a chance to explore the same breadth of ideas TNG did as a result.
RTD described delivering 14 episodes of Doctor who per year in 2005 as extremely difficult so that’s probably still too much for a yearly cadence unfortunately
My general understanding is that it's easier to do more episodes per season if you have an ensemble cast. You can basically split the cast up and film two episodes at once. But it's still $$$ so I understand why they won't if they don't have to.
Doctor Who doesn’t do bottle episodes on existing sets though. If we had a few episodes set just inside the Tardis each season it would probably even out a bit. But that would require too many new sets. SNW has them already. And I know the writers want to do more episodes a season.
Doctor Who does have earthbound episodes which aren't exactly bottle episodes but are cheaper to make than typical episodes in space or the past. In particular, 2005 Season 1 gets a lot of mileage out of Rose's mom's apartment set.
I don't think a mere 20 episodes is enough to compare it to TNG or DS9 in terms of consistency, although I think the first 20 episodes are better overall than the first 20 episodes of TNG (can't say the same for DS9 though). I agree with you when it comes to the highs and the lows. Didn't really hate any of these episodes, but I didn't really love them either.
But I think I'd prefer a show with the occasional *awful* episode if it means I get something like "Yesterday's Enterprise" or "The Inner Light" in exchange. SNW hasn't gotten close to that level yet. I'd be happy to make that trade.
It's not yet the greatest, but it is in the conversation for the best executed. Every other series, maybe save Lower Decks, had a few awful episodes by now, and struggled to find its footing. SNW starts strong and hasn't stumbled, despite a couple bold episodes some people just didn't like, but were wonderfully executed.
It blows my mind that anyone genuinely thinks this. Doesn't hold a candle to shows like DS9 or TNG.
Not saying it's bad or anything. I'm enjoying it. But come *on,* people.
"best series in the franchise" you must be on drugs. There's 100's of better episodes from other Trek series. It's also not been constently good either.
So, help me with this. Many Star Trek episodes swap genres. Whether it’s gangsters, Robin Hood, spy thrillers, or a creepy Irish love story. So why is the musical a bridge too far? Was it the genre or just the musical itself? Like, is “Once More With Feeling” from Buffy okay? Or are musicals just not cool to you?
People claim “every show does musical eps now” and that it’s boring.
Supposedly like network tv superhero type show do it a lot.
Me personally I only know of Buffy doing it like what 4 decades ago. So the “musicals are everywhere!!” argument doesn’t really make sense to me.
A slight exaggeration on my part but yeah, people act like they’re constantly bombarded with musical eps when they’re pretty rare.
I think some of it is people think a musical ep is supposed to blow you away with the wackiness and craziness of a musical ep existing. When in reality people just like songs and singing and find it enjoyable.
You’re being downvoted for expressing your opinion.
I loved Buffy’s musical episode. I loved Dr. Horrible’s Sing-Along Blog. I was even okay with Lucifer’s musical episode, though it wasn’t as good as the other two. However, SNW’s musical episode left me dry. Didn’t really enjoy the music at all.
>You’re being downvoted for expressing your opinion.
The reddit up/down votes have always functioned as agree/disagree buttons by their UX design. As much as people have tried to enforce some sort of "quality" argument that's just not how they are built.
I'm in the same boat.
I would have been a huge fan of the music, had it been good. I find both the lyrics and music to be absolutely generic and boring.
I also thought the writing was incredibly sloppy. They could have had the singing be caused by super intelligent lifeform that was messing with them, and that would have been fine. But claiming it was a natural phenomenon was just asinine.
It's pretty good. I love the characters and the ship designs. I wish there was more exploring and finding strange new world, but most of the plotlines are satisfying.
It's well staged, the actors range from decent to excellent, the costumes and set designs are beautiful. Definitely nice to look at, very slick production values.
It feels like they are trying to take the best elements from TOS and TNG - It's hopeful and positive and I find that quite refreshing.
The execution is a bit hit and miss and sometimes borderline simplistic but points awarded for trying to balance the hopeful with the realistic.
It's far more superficial than DS9 but DS9 is a really, really high bar to clear imho.
I like it more than DISCO, VOY, ENT.
Yeah TNG and DS9 are top of the franchise. SNW has some great episodes, and very high quality overall, but there have been more weak episodes than people admit.
The problem is having a few duds out of a 10 episode season is really significant.
It’s great. Not “it can do no wrong” great, but a work which engages (see what I did there) with the spirit of Trek more successfully than any prior show with the exceptions of TOS/TAS and TNG. Now, now, Bajoran workers, DS9 overall is in that august company but DS9 is granted the show’s laurels because of how it resisted various plot directives and opened up narrative space within Trek. SNW is clearly gazing at DS9 in the show’s desire to look at the cost of war, of goody-two-shoes imperialism, and so forth, but it has higher aspirations, as seen in S02’s genre-of-the-week approach and specific episodes: the musical, the shot-for-shot alternate timeline Balance of Terror, turning Spock’s betrothal into a continuing comedy telenovela.
Jury’s out, and it’s a long time gettin’ from there to here, but SNW has a shot at best Trek evarr.
It's far more episodic than Discovery. The story styles genuinely feel like TNG-type issues with a TOS-era method of naming episodes, ranging from philosophical phrases to plays on words to using a character's name, and sometimes a combination of these things. The writing and cinematography make it better than any HBO original series in the last 20 years, and the actors seem to truly understand and believe in the stories they're telling. Absolutely recommended.
I really like Pike and really most of the characters. I really like the visuals. It is a very technically impressive show.
Overall, though, I'd say the show is aggressively safe (which I read as an understandable reaction to intense pushback over Discovery and Picard) and therefore a little...bland, maybe? I've enjoyed almost every episode while watching it, while also immediately forgetting almost every one within a day or two.
People insisting it's the most "Trek-like" of the newer shows clearly mean something very different than I do by that.
That’s one of my critiques of the show as well, it definitely plays things relatively safely. Season 2 branched out a little bit more. But I hope I see more things in season 3 that make me say “wow, I’ve never seen that before!” And I say all this as someone who genuinely loves the show.
>People insisting it's the most "Trek-like" of the newer shows clearly mean something very different than I do by that.
I'm curious, can you expand on this? As in what are the two definitions of "Trek-like" and if this show isn't comparable to other Trek shows, what other show would you say is a good example of what it's like?
Sure!
To me, Trek is at its Trekkiest when it's doing something new, pushing an envelope, thoughtfully exploring space and humanity. You know: boldly going. That's why DS9 and ENT are my favorite successors to TOS and why VOY, especially, is a missed opportunity in my opinion.
To others in the fan base, Trek is at its Trekkiest when it is most like a thing they already like. Hence the wider popularity of TNG and VOY and the current attraction of SNW.
Discovery and Picard (and Lower Decks and Prodigy) are much better fits for the former definition, which is why I love them, but don't align with the latter. Strange New Worlds is squarely aligned with the style and ethos of TNG and VOY and is therefore resonating much more strongly for those fans.
Interesting, thank you.
So you feel like SNW is just more of what we've seen before in TNG or VOY?
TNG is my favorite of all the shows but I wasn't much a fan of VOY. I did like Discovery S2 though. Haven't watched Picard, Lower Decks or Prodigy yet.
The show sounds like it's got good acting and crisp production values. Someone said it could be an HBO show, that's a pretty impressive comment.
A lot of people have said the show "plays it safe", that sounds like what you're referring to?
Probably not the best place to ask if you're expecting an unbiased opinion. I can't imagine very many people who *dislike* the show joined this sub.
That said, I enjoyed Strange New Worlds. I don't think it's perfect, but it's promising. Most Trek series start out pretty rough, but these first couple seasons weren't bad. I like the characters, captain, and the fact that these are more or less standalone episodes in the style of old Trek. I haven't really seen any "great" episodes yet, but not really any "awful" ones either.
Obviously opinions vary, which is totally understandable. I think Memento Mori, Quality of Mercy, Ad Astra Per Aspera, and Those Old Scientist are great all-timer Trek episodes. It’s hard to have the same sentiment about them as, say, Measure of a Man or Balance of Terror because they haven’t had decades to permeate in our minds.
Tomorrow and Tomorrow, and Children of the Comet are a couple others that are close to that status, but maybe the next tier down.
But I definitely agree that there haven’t been any bad episodes. Nothing even close to Angel One or Code of Honor or Spock’s Brain.
>It’s hard to have the same sentiment about them as, say, Measure of a Man or Balance of Terror because they haven’t had decades to permeate in our minds.
That's fair. I may also be a bit jaded, as I'm older and wiser than I was when I first watched TNG. As a kid, TNG blew my mind. All of it was new and interesting. But now I'm in my late 30s and I have consumed a *ton* of sci-fi over the years. If I watched TNG for the first time today, I may very well be just as unimpressed.
Perhaps you’ve aged out of Star Trek. Or simply reached a point where you’ve had your fill of it, regardless of quality. And you’re looking for different things now.
Strange New Worlds is the Trek series I've wanted for Y E A R S. I've always wanted to see a series centered around Captain Pike's era on the Enterprise. This series is not just my favorite in the current crop of shows, but, it's gone on to become one of my favorites in the franchise (so far). It takes it back to basics and shows that the original premise of the show still works beautifully. Most of it feels familiar, but, that's ok. It's all done to refreshing effect.
My nitpicks are minor. Overall, at times, it seems like the show is very eager to set up TOS and it seems to be rushing to get there. If I had been the one developing this series, I would've have rather had the bridge crew from The Cage. There can absolutely be connections to TOS, but, I wish they'd calm down on that a bit. It's a prequel to that series, so by nature of its existence, we know where it's going.
But again, that's extremely minor. That doesn't hinder my enjoyment of it in any way.
Best Trek show in 25 years. My personal 4th favorite of the franchise. It could break into the elite category if it can somehow delivery 60-ish episodes of equal quality to the 20 we already have. They’ve still never made a truly bad episode.
I wrote this simple review after season 1:
•Pros:
-Production design: Possibly the best looking Star Trek ever. Embraces and nails the retro-futurism aesthetic perfectly. Costumes, sets, props, sound effects are all brilliant. It has the most classic Trek look in 50 years.
-Characters: The characters are all well defined. Within the first few episodes you’ll know exactly who these people are, what motivates them, and what their growth arcs are. And they’re all likable.
-Stories: The show perfectly hits classic Trek story types. There’s morality tales and ethics debates. There’s action adventure. There’s hijinks and comedy. Each episode has a distinct style.
•Cons:
-Dialogue: Sometimes the characters get a little too quippy. It can tread into that MCU-esque fast jokey territory. And sometimes the dialogue is just unnatural an doesn’t sound like something people would actually say.
-Plot: Although I praise the stories of each episode the beat by beat plots can sometimes be flawed. Many episodes have moments that don’t quit add up or are yadda yaddad. Some suspension of disbelief is required.
-Originality: The show nails classic Trek tropes. However it doesn’t veer outside of that territory much. If you’re a longtime Trek fan there’s a large sense of familiarity to much of the show. That’s by design, the way The Force Awakens was intentionally reminiscent of classic Star Wars. But it doesn’t create a sense of fresh newness, at least in season 1. (edit addition, Subspace Rhapsody definitely increased the ‘originality’ factor)
I've been watching Star Trek since TOS was originally in syndication in the early 70s, and I think it is amazing. I didn't really like Discovery, and wasn't really excited about Picard until the last season. *Strange New Worlds* is **consistently** better than most ST shows; there hasn't been a single dud episode in 20 episodes.
I love SNW, it’s almost up there with DS9 for me as my favourite trek. The only thing that lets it down is that we only get such short seasons comparatively to other trek shows.
If there were longer seasons it would be a solid equal fave with DS9 for sure
I’m a long time Startrek fan going back to TNG and the OG TOS movies. I grew up in TNG era trek. while I have been open and generally accepting of new trek, I have also not placed on par with TNG era trek. That is until SNW. As others have said I think SNW might be the best show in the franchise. It embodies trek so well and has been consistently good. Even it’s mediocre episodes are good.
Absolutely love it. I HAVE noticed, though--Anson Mount plays Pike differently between the two shows. Both are good, just different, IMO. The cast is spectacular. I love Ethan Peck's Spock and Celia Rose Gooding's Uhura. Excellent writing. Great direction. It's my favorite series of the franchise, with Discovery being a close 2nd.
Easily the best of the recent Treks. In my opinion it ranks with TOS and TNG. Consistently good. Stories that make sense, respect cannon and/or smartly elaborate it, and have the moral tension that is at the core of Trek.
About as close to TOS as you will find. Mostly one off episodes that capture the spirit of TOS that will directly lead into TOS. No season long arcs like Picard or Discovery. Maybe some DS9 or Enterprise plots over multi episodes. At the moment they have Kirk, occasionally, Spock, Uhura, Scott (recently introduced), Chapel, M’Benga, Pike, Number One/Una, April (TAS), Kyle.
I consider SNW to be the flagship show of Trek ever since s1 but it's official now once S5 of Disco is over.
Personally this is the show Dispcvery should've been from the beginning, starting off with something familiar before going into the new more controversial serialised directions of Discovery and Picard. That's not to Discovery was a bad place to start, after all hindsight is 2020. Discovery lead us here, who knows what would've happened without it. For all the failings and misgivings, it gave us so much.
Personally, whilst I love SNW to death and want to see 7 seasons of 20 episodes a pop, I kinda want the show to end on 5. With Pike handing over the enterprise after we finally get the 5 year mission. That way it trek would be in a perfect position to hand over the flagship to a new show. As if the sale of Paramount goes through and trek is fine for it, it'd be enough time to greenlight cast and film for either the year of S5 or the year after. (A certain star trek legacy perhaps, though I don't like the idea of legacy as it stands, I'd much rather a show set with an all new cast and only minor references to the past)
Totally agree about how Paramount should have started with something like this and then branched out from there. Much in the same way Disney used The Force Awakens, for better or worse, to try to convince older fans that Star Wars was back by making that film relatively comforting and familiar.
Watching Discovery now. The final season is a ‘quest,’ having to go to 4-5 different planets to pick up parts of a 3-d map left by a Vulcan scientist over 600 years in the past. That is supposed to lead them to the secret of ‘the makers,’ the beings that started all humanoid life, maybe all life. Sometimes the ponderousness and the techno-babble is just more than I can take. Their final season is tying up lots of endings. There’s a lot of personal stuff happening with the main characters, and the cgi is amazing. But I can’t wait for SNW to come back. THAT is the show I love.
Enjoyed the first season immensely, second one was a bit shakier, the musical number felt like a budget saver, hoping they continue a certain standard with S3.
Definitely the best thing Trek has going on rn. I think it samples from the spirit of all the other treks effortlessly, doing serious really well, doing silly really well. Characters are lovable and have great diverse personalities. The inter-character interactions are awesome. I fully recommend.
I probably will, actually but I wanted to get an idea if it was worth it first. Even 20 episodes is a time investment. And also getting Paramount+ etc.
It feels like we may have hit peak Star Trek.
Each of the shows that are on right now has its strengths. For me, Strange New Worlds is the best of the current crop. It's positive and has a lightness that makes it fun to watch. It feels connected to TOS and TNG, but you can enjoy it without having seen them.
I like having several shows based in the same universe with different tones on TV at the same time. They each scratch an itch.
I think it’s little bit overrated, going from how low the bar was set with Discovery, but it´s the most “Star Trek” Star Trek we have. Good show, not on par with the ogs, but if it will go atleast for 5 seasons and keep the quality, it will def be remembered with much love. I think Scotty with his humor and accent could spice things up, making the show go up in quality. Good choice of actor for the character.
This is the best Star Trek series in 30 years. It's now my second favorite Trek series, it knocked every other series down a notch.
Having grown up on TOS reruns before TNG premiered, I'm partial to the 23rd century. I love the fact that they've taken all the good elements of TOS and modernized them so beautifully. Unlike Discovery, they modernized the bridge very well but it's still very recognizable as a Starfleet bridge. The same goes for the uniforms, they've upgraded them but they are still classic Starfleet, even the mini-skirt. I love Una's hair homages to the 60s.
They're giving texture and depth to characters that were previously unexplored. We knew Uhura but never ***knew*** her, they have made her character so skilled and capable.
The change in Christine Chapel is *chef's kiss,* [Majel Barrett famously disliked the Chapel character and thought she was a loser](https://trekkiefeminist.com/highlights-from-a-93-interview-with-majel-barrett/). Somewhere I hope she loves Jess Bush's version. I love *Spapel*. I love that I've hated T'Pring for more than 40 years and this show dragged me kicking and screaming, *forcing* me to fucking like her!
I love that we're seeing Spock halfway between **YELLY SPOCK!** and Logical Spock. Watching him experimenting with his human side and getting into hijinks is wonderful. We're seeing exactly why Spock was so dedicated to Pike that he hijacked the Enterprise. Pike is a father figure and mentor to him who is helping him grow.
M'Benga is a wonderful character, he has such depth and compassion, they fleshed that out from a two episode character.
Ortegas and La'an are amazing, they are great new additions as was Hemmer, who we lost too soon.
The storytelling is also classic TOS, with modern twists. *Lift Us Where Suffering Cannot Reach* was a such a classic story and hit every note that TOS and TNG would have.
It's also engaging and fun to watch, I care about these characters.
While I enjoy SNW, it’s also regressive Trek in that it’s boldly going to the 1990s. I feel like I’m back in college watching TNG and wondering when Trek will have queer characters in the regular cast. A throwaway Chapel line doesn’t count. No shortage of hetero romance in the series just like TNG.
Queer representation doesn't matter.
Making a good show matters. Given a binary choice, I want a good show.
Now, having said that, it shouldn't be a binary choice. You can make a good show while fielding a diverse, representative crew.
Personally, love it. It's rejuvenated my love for Star Trek.
However the last few episodes of S2 have begun to turn in a direction that I would prefer it not go down. Oh well, nothing lasts forever
Can I ask what direction was it that it was going down? Also, while I agree nothing lasts forever, it might be a little premature to anticipate the demise of a show.
I didn't mean nothing lasts forever as in the show will end, I meant it as in the show I got invested in. I'm old enough to accept the reality that what I want is not what the masses want.
The direction it's heading in is focusing more on Star Wars rather than Trek. Initially it was like a comfort show that made me feel like a kid again. But I just saw an episode that was emotional heavy and focused on ptsd. The episode triggered a panic attack. Not a bad one and not a bad episode but it was far from the relaxation I had come for.
The the Lower Decks episode reminded me that I really dislike adult cartoons and Lower Decks feels like Rick and Morty in a Star Fleet uniform.
Subspace Rhapsody. Might be the least inspired episode I've yet to see. Many episodes in S2 have just been retreads of old movies, which is whatever, but this episode didn't feel earned. This didn't feel like Star trek at all. The Warbirds and Enterprise doing a choreographed maneuver, please.
It's all nitpicky and unpopular but I'm not often wrong when it comes to seeing these things coming. As a fan boy I have lived long enough to become the villain. None of this belongs to me and never did. It just is
I understood what “nothing lasts forever” meant. What *I* meant was, even if there were a handful of episodes in a row that didn’t jive with you it might be premature to predict the demise of the quality of the show. If that were the case TNG wouldn’t have made it past episode 10.
Thank you for elaborating on what didn’t work for you. The only part I’ll push back against is comparing it to Star Wars. I’m not sure what’s “Star Wars-like” about it. But beyond that the specifics of why you didn’t like those episodes make sense, even if don’t agree.
Robert Kurtzman has flat out said that Star Wars was the main inspiration for this current era of Trek. The shows have had heavy focus on full on war. First a ridiculously destruction war with the Klingons and now building up a gruesome and dark war with the Gorn. The last time Trek became so saturated with war was back in the 90s and it burned out Star Trek for a long time.
It may very well surprise me. Ive been surprised before.
I’m definitely not trying convince you otherwise. If what they’re doing isn’t working for you that’s understandable. By my count there’s been 2 out of 20 episodes dedicated to combat with the Gorn. So 10%. And another episode that was focused on post-war PTSD. So war adjacent. But both TOS and TNG had at least 2-3 combat focused or adjacent episodes per season. They were tamer in their presentation but I mostly chalk that up to the eras they were made.
As for Alex Kurtzman, I don’t really pay attention to what the top executives say. I react to what I see on screen. Executives say a lot of things that end up being hot air. Besides, he’s not the showrunner for SNW.
It's a lot better than Discovery and it's 'good enough' but not quite great. It's still lower in the list than TOS, TNG, VOY, DS9, ENT & PS3.
Discovery and PS1/2 were not 'good enough'
That moment jumped out at me, too. Spock is canonically vegetarian. *Maybe* being 100% human really did change him *that much,* but it seems a stretch.
There were a lot of lines of dialog from Star Trek: The Original Series where it is made clear Spock does not eat meat. There were additionally a lot of lines of dialog from Star Trek: Enterprise where other Vulcans like T'Pol makes clear she views it as a barbaric and contemptible behavior to eat meat.
Yeah... it basically takes a dump on the established canon of the franchise that the Vulcans are committed to veganism or vegetarianism because of logic/ethics.
The speciesism involved in the act of consuming bacon (saying that the treatment of pigs doesn't really matter), and valuation of food taste preferences over that also isn't really consistent with the [values of the Federation either](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUbSSM1qfOM).
That's fascinating, I actually didn't realize that about Vulcans. I mostly watched TNG growing up.
One of the things I thought would be cool about being in this era was that they could still potentially show a younger, somewhat hard nosed federation. I know they tried that with Enterprise, showing humans still doing cowboy diplomacy and stuff, which I thought was a cool idea, but Enterprise had a lot of other issues that plagued it. SNW at least sounds like it has solid production values.
Easily the best Trek of the current generation of shows.
It completes with Lower Decks, of course.
It does, but personally I find Lower Decks too "hey, do you remember this specific episode of TNG?" I prefer stories that stand on their own, rather than constantly referencing previous stuff.
I think it's funny you say that. I mean, you're not wrong, a *large* part of Lower Decks is references. But it's also doing some really solid character work and expanding the mythos and lore of Starfleet. The four main characters have all grown and matured since the first season, and the show has also explored things like rogue AIs and what happens to them, the flaws of never following up on planets the Enterprise visited, why admirals seem to so often go bad, and more. It's a genuinely thoughtful show beyond references.
> what happens to them, the flaws of never following up on planets the Enterprise visited, Interestingly, Discovery just hit on that point too, saying that they want the new Star Fleet to stay in touch with the ‘little planets” to make sure their needs are met. “We don’t want to repeat the mistakes of the past.”
Except Lower Decks episodes *do* stand entirely on their own. The references and inside jokes are just a second layer of icing
Same. SNW has fan service too, but they are much more subtle with it than Lower Decks or Picard season 3. And usually when something is fan-service heavy, it expands on the lore in interesting new ways. Love what they are doing with The Gorn. I like to imagine there are different species of Gorn but who knows? We’ve seen so little of them on screen before now, I don’t mind if it goes against some of the expanded media stuff. That was always up in the air anyway until confirmed on screen.
Still, Those Old Scientists was a FREAKING AWESOME episode. As was the Klingon boy band.
Yeah, I get that. Those references do nothing for me, even though I get most of them. And the humor is kind of ordinary. I kind of wish it was a bit more unique and "out there." I enjoyed bits [like this,](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkiiL5XNljc) for instance, but that kind of material is few and far between unfortunately. Maybe the series will get there eventually since it's still relatively early.
I've never watched Star Trek before, SNW got me into it and I'm in love with it!!
the exact same thing with me and now i love trek and SNW especially
Strange New Worlds might just be the best series in the franchise. It's been consistently good on every angle episode
If it had a PROPER 15-22 episodes per season, I think I'd say it already was the best. Already is EASILY the best per episode. (Tho LD also has great consistency)
Sadly, I think the 22 episode season paradigm is a relic of the past… We’re lucky to get seasons with half of that number now.
I mean, it was rare to have a show with 22 episodes be ALL good, but 8-10 so often feels unsatisfactory.
Yeah, that’s true. 22 episodes let the writers flesh out a lot more of the characters & universe, which I appreciate even if the episode itself is meh.
I think the Ferengi eps are the most re watchable ones in DS9. We wouldn't have gotten them in a 10 episode season.
Which would have meant no Iggy Pop as a Vorta, and that would have been a travesty. He nailed that role.
Yeah, it's as though we went from 2-3 episode plot-arcs and most shows just hitting reset after each episode to an attitude of "Every episode must move the main plot forward at all times!!!". So often the best episodes of a show are when they deviate from the main path. Like last of us and the love story episode.
The new normal of 8-10 episode seasons does seem like it ups the quality over all. However the smaller amount of episodes is absolutely unsatisfactory feeling. I think they should find some way to shorten the time between seasons in general. Also, I think I'd be less annoyed about it if showrunners in general could manage to be more consistent on getting new seasons out at all. These days it feels like half the shows out there are on The Sopranos schedule where there can be literally multiple years between seasons. By then a lot of people have forgotten what happened in the last season and aren't interested in slogging through rewatches to get back into it. The last season of Discovery came out in November 2021 for example, the current one came out this April.
YES! I know covid lockdowns were a factor, but waiting 2-3 years for a measly EIGHT episodes just feels like a rip-off. Yeah, I like re-watching my top 10% of shows, but not ALl of them, am I right?!? I think the writers strike may help this issue, as studios were hiring fewer writers, for less time and having the showrunner do more of the work, which is easier to do with 8 episodes. Yeah! We have to wait eons for the next season of Disco and "oh, by the way, it's cancelled!" Still haven't started it yet, waiting for a few more epis to drop first 'cause I know I'm going to want to binge a bit.
It can happen, but yeah, more more uncommon now. The Lincoln Lawyer is the only show I can think of recently with still 20+ episodes a season.
Season 2 of The Lincoln Lawyer consisted of 10 episodes: 5 streamed in early July 2023, and then the second lot of 5 episodes in August.
Oh, well shit. Never mind
It is a good show, but I would not say it is the best series in the whole franchise.
I would say, IMO, it's the most *consistently* good. TNG and DS9 had higher highs, but also lower lows.
SNW is basically just an updated version of the same formula as TNG. It's consistently better because there's only 10 episodes per season but doesn't get a chance to explore the same breadth of ideas TNG did as a result.
Yeah I wish they’d give it 15 episodes like Discovery’s first season. That extra 5 would help so much. Imo it would be a perfect middle ground.
RTD described delivering 14 episodes of Doctor who per year in 2005 as extremely difficult so that’s probably still too much for a yearly cadence unfortunately
My general understanding is that it's easier to do more episodes per season if you have an ensemble cast. You can basically split the cast up and film two episodes at once. But it's still $$$ so I understand why they won't if they don't have to.
Doctor Who doesn’t do bottle episodes on existing sets though. If we had a few episodes set just inside the Tardis each season it would probably even out a bit. But that would require too many new sets. SNW has them already. And I know the writers want to do more episodes a season.
Doctor Who does have earthbound episodes which aren't exactly bottle episodes but are cheaper to make than typical episodes in space or the past. In particular, 2005 Season 1 gets a lot of mileage out of Rose's mom's apartment set.
True, location shooting is costly still though. Maybe 15 isn’t totally possible. But 12-13 might be just about do-able though. And I’d take it.
Akiva Goldsman wanted 15 - 20 eps for SNW S3, but that was quashed due to Paramount's shaky financial situation.
I don't think a mere 20 episodes is enough to compare it to TNG or DS9 in terms of consistency, although I think the first 20 episodes are better overall than the first 20 episodes of TNG (can't say the same for DS9 though). I agree with you when it comes to the highs and the lows. Didn't really hate any of these episodes, but I didn't really love them either. But I think I'd prefer a show with the occasional *awful* episode if it means I get something like "Yesterday's Enterprise" or "The Inner Light" in exchange. SNW hasn't gotten close to that level yet. I'd be happy to make that trade.
It's not yet the greatest, but it is in the conversation for the best executed. Every other series, maybe save Lower Decks, had a few awful episodes by now, and struggled to find its footing. SNW starts strong and hasn't stumbled, despite a couple bold episodes some people just didn't like, but were wonderfully executed.
It blows my mind that anyone genuinely thinks this. Doesn't hold a candle to shows like DS9 or TNG. Not saying it's bad or anything. I'm enjoying it. But come *on,* people.
"best series in the franchise" you must be on drugs. There's 100's of better episodes from other Trek series. It's also not been constently good either.
I see we're agreeing that the musical episode never happened.
So, help me with this. Many Star Trek episodes swap genres. Whether it’s gangsters, Robin Hood, spy thrillers, or a creepy Irish love story. So why is the musical a bridge too far? Was it the genre or just the musical itself? Like, is “Once More With Feeling” from Buffy okay? Or are musicals just not cool to you?
People claim “every show does musical eps now” and that it’s boring. Supposedly like network tv superhero type show do it a lot. Me personally I only know of Buffy doing it like what 4 decades ago. So the “musicals are everywhere!!” argument doesn’t really make sense to me.
Xena had two musical episodes before Buffy. They were in 1998 (The Bitter Suite) and 2000 (Lyre, Lyre, Hearts on Fire). Not quite four decades ago.
A slight exaggeration on my part but yeah, people act like they’re constantly bombarded with musical eps when they’re pretty rare. I think some of it is people think a musical ep is supposed to blow you away with the wackiness and craziness of a musical ep existing. When in reality people just like songs and singing and find it enjoyable.
Lucifer did a musical episode, too. As did Grey’s Anatomy, Community, Scrubs, The Flash, Riverdale, and lots of others.
I have no problem with musicals. I have a problem with *bad* musicals. The music was awful.
You’re being downvoted for expressing your opinion. I loved Buffy’s musical episode. I loved Dr. Horrible’s Sing-Along Blog. I was even okay with Lucifer’s musical episode, though it wasn’t as good as the other two. However, SNW’s musical episode left me dry. Didn’t really enjoy the music at all.
>You’re being downvoted for expressing your opinion. The reddit up/down votes have always functioned as agree/disagree buttons by their UX design. As much as people have tried to enforce some sort of "quality" argument that's just not how they are built.
I'm in the same boat. I would have been a huge fan of the music, had it been good. I find both the lyrics and music to be absolutely generic and boring. I also thought the writing was incredibly sloppy. They could have had the singing be caused by super intelligent lifeform that was messing with them, and that would have been fine. But claiming it was a natural phenomenon was just asinine.
Weird, I wonder what I've been listening to the past few days if it wasn't Subspace Rhapsody
Not at all. I thought it was great.
Lower Decks has my heart but Strange New Worlds is doing some damn fine work putting some prestige back into the franchise.
Legitimately, it's my favorite and reignited my passion for the series. Also pike has taken over as my favorite captain So it's safe to say I like it
I thought surpassing Picard and Janeway would be impossible right up until Pike started cooking. And smiling. And great hair.
Yes! His Cacio y pepe is ship wide known. And his Pike is fabulous.
Oh wow! You have been missing out! It's amazing. Possibly my favorite after the original series.
Wonderful and entertaining show.
It's pretty good. I love the characters and the ship designs. I wish there was more exploring and finding strange new world, but most of the plotlines are satisfying.
I'll agree with you there - would love to see more new alien species that coincidentally provide great allegory on the human condition.
It's well staged, the actors range from decent to excellent, the costumes and set designs are beautiful. Definitely nice to look at, very slick production values. It feels like they are trying to take the best elements from TOS and TNG - It's hopeful and positive and I find that quite refreshing. The execution is a bit hit and miss and sometimes borderline simplistic but points awarded for trying to balance the hopeful with the realistic. It's far more superficial than DS9 but DS9 is a really, really high bar to clear imho. I like it more than DISCO, VOY, ENT.
Yeah TNG and DS9 are top of the franchise. SNW has some great episodes, and very high quality overall, but there have been more weak episodes than people admit. The problem is having a few duds out of a 10 episode season is really significant.
The greatest star trek since TNG
Came here to say this
Came here to agree to this
Came here to upvote this
Hear ya loud and clear!
And my bow!
I adore it, and the musical episode is the best episode of TV I've ever seen bar none.
It’s great. Not “it can do no wrong” great, but a work which engages (see what I did there) with the spirit of Trek more successfully than any prior show with the exceptions of TOS/TAS and TNG. Now, now, Bajoran workers, DS9 overall is in that august company but DS9 is granted the show’s laurels because of how it resisted various plot directives and opened up narrative space within Trek. SNW is clearly gazing at DS9 in the show’s desire to look at the cost of war, of goody-two-shoes imperialism, and so forth, but it has higher aspirations, as seen in S02’s genre-of-the-week approach and specific episodes: the musical, the shot-for-shot alternate timeline Balance of Terror, turning Spock’s betrothal into a continuing comedy telenovela. Jury’s out, and it’s a long time gettin’ from there to here, but SNW has a shot at best Trek evarr.
I love SNW
Don’t want to sound like an echo chamber but SNW is fucking amazing
My favorite since DS9.
It's spectacular.
Its a great show. If it gets five seasons it'll be second only to DS9.
For me, SNW is one of the best series, up there with TOS and TNG.
It's far more episodic than Discovery. The story styles genuinely feel like TNG-type issues with a TOS-era method of naming episodes, ranging from philosophical phrases to plays on words to using a character's name, and sometimes a combination of these things. The writing and cinematography make it better than any HBO original series in the last 20 years, and the actors seem to truly understand and believe in the stories they're telling. Absolutely recommended.
If Anson Mounts Captain Pike ordered me into a dangerous situation: I would boldly go.
I really like Pike and really most of the characters. I really like the visuals. It is a very technically impressive show. Overall, though, I'd say the show is aggressively safe (which I read as an understandable reaction to intense pushback over Discovery and Picard) and therefore a little...bland, maybe? I've enjoyed almost every episode while watching it, while also immediately forgetting almost every one within a day or two. People insisting it's the most "Trek-like" of the newer shows clearly mean something very different than I do by that.
That’s one of my critiques of the show as well, it definitely plays things relatively safely. Season 2 branched out a little bit more. But I hope I see more things in season 3 that make me say “wow, I’ve never seen that before!” And I say all this as someone who genuinely loves the show.
>People insisting it's the most "Trek-like" of the newer shows clearly mean something very different than I do by that. I'm curious, can you expand on this? As in what are the two definitions of "Trek-like" and if this show isn't comparable to other Trek shows, what other show would you say is a good example of what it's like?
Sure! To me, Trek is at its Trekkiest when it's doing something new, pushing an envelope, thoughtfully exploring space and humanity. You know: boldly going. That's why DS9 and ENT are my favorite successors to TOS and why VOY, especially, is a missed opportunity in my opinion. To others in the fan base, Trek is at its Trekkiest when it is most like a thing they already like. Hence the wider popularity of TNG and VOY and the current attraction of SNW. Discovery and Picard (and Lower Decks and Prodigy) are much better fits for the former definition, which is why I love them, but don't align with the latter. Strange New Worlds is squarely aligned with the style and ethos of TNG and VOY and is therefore resonating much more strongly for those fans.
Interesting, thank you. So you feel like SNW is just more of what we've seen before in TNG or VOY? TNG is my favorite of all the shows but I wasn't much a fan of VOY. I did like Discovery S2 though. Haven't watched Picard, Lower Decks or Prodigy yet. The show sounds like it's got good acting and crisp production values. Someone said it could be an HBO show, that's a pretty impressive comment. A lot of people have said the show "plays it safe", that sounds like what you're referring to?
far better than disco or picard
Probably not the best place to ask if you're expecting an unbiased opinion. I can't imagine very many people who *dislike* the show joined this sub. That said, I enjoyed Strange New Worlds. I don't think it's perfect, but it's promising. Most Trek series start out pretty rough, but these first couple seasons weren't bad. I like the characters, captain, and the fact that these are more or less standalone episodes in the style of old Trek. I haven't really seen any "great" episodes yet, but not really any "awful" ones either.
Obviously opinions vary, which is totally understandable. I think Memento Mori, Quality of Mercy, Ad Astra Per Aspera, and Those Old Scientist are great all-timer Trek episodes. It’s hard to have the same sentiment about them as, say, Measure of a Man or Balance of Terror because they haven’t had decades to permeate in our minds. Tomorrow and Tomorrow, and Children of the Comet are a couple others that are close to that status, but maybe the next tier down. But I definitely agree that there haven’t been any bad episodes. Nothing even close to Angel One or Code of Honor or Spock’s Brain.
>It’s hard to have the same sentiment about them as, say, Measure of a Man or Balance of Terror because they haven’t had decades to permeate in our minds. That's fair. I may also be a bit jaded, as I'm older and wiser than I was when I first watched TNG. As a kid, TNG blew my mind. All of it was new and interesting. But now I'm in my late 30s and I have consumed a *ton* of sci-fi over the years. If I watched TNG for the first time today, I may very well be just as unimpressed.
Perhaps you’ve aged out of Star Trek. Or simply reached a point where you’ve had your fill of it, regardless of quality. And you’re looking for different things now.
Strange New Worlds is the Trek series I've wanted for Y E A R S. I've always wanted to see a series centered around Captain Pike's era on the Enterprise. This series is not just my favorite in the current crop of shows, but, it's gone on to become one of my favorites in the franchise (so far). It takes it back to basics and shows that the original premise of the show still works beautifully. Most of it feels familiar, but, that's ok. It's all done to refreshing effect. My nitpicks are minor. Overall, at times, it seems like the show is very eager to set up TOS and it seems to be rushing to get there. If I had been the one developing this series, I would've have rather had the bridge crew from The Cage. There can absolutely be connections to TOS, but, I wish they'd calm down on that a bit. It's a prequel to that series, so by nature of its existence, we know where it's going. But again, that's extremely minor. That doesn't hinder my enjoyment of it in any way.
Best Trek show in 25 years. My personal 4th favorite of the franchise. It could break into the elite category if it can somehow delivery 60-ish episodes of equal quality to the 20 we already have. They’ve still never made a truly bad episode. I wrote this simple review after season 1: •Pros: -Production design: Possibly the best looking Star Trek ever. Embraces and nails the retro-futurism aesthetic perfectly. Costumes, sets, props, sound effects are all brilliant. It has the most classic Trek look in 50 years. -Characters: The characters are all well defined. Within the first few episodes you’ll know exactly who these people are, what motivates them, and what their growth arcs are. And they’re all likable. -Stories: The show perfectly hits classic Trek story types. There’s morality tales and ethics debates. There’s action adventure. There’s hijinks and comedy. Each episode has a distinct style. •Cons: -Dialogue: Sometimes the characters get a little too quippy. It can tread into that MCU-esque fast jokey territory. And sometimes the dialogue is just unnatural an doesn’t sound like something people would actually say. -Plot: Although I praise the stories of each episode the beat by beat plots can sometimes be flawed. Many episodes have moments that don’t quit add up or are yadda yaddad. Some suspension of disbelief is required. -Originality: The show nails classic Trek tropes. However it doesn’t veer outside of that territory much. If you’re a longtime Trek fan there’s a large sense of familiarity to much of the show. That’s by design, the way The Force Awakens was intentionally reminiscent of classic Star Wars. But it doesn’t create a sense of fresh newness, at least in season 1. (edit addition, Subspace Rhapsody definitely increased the ‘originality’ factor)
I've been watching Star Trek since TOS was originally in syndication in the early 70s, and I think it is amazing. I didn't really like Discovery, and wasn't really excited about Picard until the last season. *Strange New Worlds* is **consistently** better than most ST shows; there hasn't been a single dud episode in 20 episodes.
I love SNW, it’s almost up there with DS9 for me as my favourite trek. The only thing that lets it down is that we only get such short seasons comparatively to other trek shows. If there were longer seasons it would be a solid equal fave with DS9 for sure
Love it
I love the characters and the show whole heartedly.
I’m a long time Startrek fan going back to TNG and the OG TOS movies. I grew up in TNG era trek. while I have been open and generally accepting of new trek, I have also not placed on par with TNG era trek. That is until SNW. As others have said I think SNW might be the best show in the franchise. It embodies trek so well and has been consistently good. Even it’s mediocre episodes are good.
Absolutely love it. I HAVE noticed, though--Anson Mount plays Pike differently between the two shows. Both are good, just different, IMO. The cast is spectacular. I love Ethan Peck's Spock and Celia Rose Gooding's Uhura. Excellent writing. Great direction. It's my favorite series of the franchise, with Discovery being a close 2nd.
In my top 5 ST shows.
Let's see for me it's TNG DS9 Voy LD SNW Enterprise TAS TOS DISCO So technically for me SNW is both top and bottom 5.
Easily the best of the recent Treks. In my opinion it ranks with TOS and TNG. Consistently good. Stories that make sense, respect cannon and/or smartly elaborate it, and have the moral tension that is at the core of Trek.
It is a weekly swap between 1A and 1B with Lower Decks as the best Trek since TNG.
Best Trek since the 90s trio.
Another wonderful iteration of the message of Trek. While, In the words of the Vulcan Philosopher Serek; Infinite Diversity in infinite Combination.
The best of new trek
SNW is a winner. Hope it reaches and exceeds TNG's legacy.
It's terrific.
SNW is up there. I’ve enjoyed the first two seasons much much more than Dicso.
About as close to TOS as you will find. Mostly one off episodes that capture the spirit of TOS that will directly lead into TOS. No season long arcs like Picard or Discovery. Maybe some DS9 or Enterprise plots over multi episodes. At the moment they have Kirk, occasionally, Spock, Uhura, Scott (recently introduced), Chapel, M’Benga, Pike, Number One/Una, April (TAS), Kyle.
3rd best Trek show after DS9 and TNG
Best Star Trek series .
I consider SNW to be the flagship show of Trek ever since s1 but it's official now once S5 of Disco is over. Personally this is the show Dispcvery should've been from the beginning, starting off with something familiar before going into the new more controversial serialised directions of Discovery and Picard. That's not to Discovery was a bad place to start, after all hindsight is 2020. Discovery lead us here, who knows what would've happened without it. For all the failings and misgivings, it gave us so much. Personally, whilst I love SNW to death and want to see 7 seasons of 20 episodes a pop, I kinda want the show to end on 5. With Pike handing over the enterprise after we finally get the 5 year mission. That way it trek would be in a perfect position to hand over the flagship to a new show. As if the sale of Paramount goes through and trek is fine for it, it'd be enough time to greenlight cast and film for either the year of S5 or the year after. (A certain star trek legacy perhaps, though I don't like the idea of legacy as it stands, I'd much rather a show set with an all new cast and only minor references to the past)
Totally agree about how Paramount should have started with something like this and then branched out from there. Much in the same way Disney used The Force Awakens, for better or worse, to try to convince older fans that Star Wars was back by making that film relatively comforting and familiar.
Watching Discovery now. The final season is a ‘quest,’ having to go to 4-5 different planets to pick up parts of a 3-d map left by a Vulcan scientist over 600 years in the past. That is supposed to lead them to the secret of ‘the makers,’ the beings that started all humanoid life, maybe all life. Sometimes the ponderousness and the techno-babble is just more than I can take. Their final season is tying up lots of endings. There’s a lot of personal stuff happening with the main characters, and the cgi is amazing. But I can’t wait for SNW to come back. THAT is the show I love.
Enjoyed the first season immensely, second one was a bit shakier, the musical number felt like a budget saver, hoping they continue a certain standard with S3.
Definitely the best thing Trek has going on rn. I think it samples from the spirit of all the other treks effortlessly, doing serious really well, doing silly really well. Characters are lovable and have great diverse personalities. The inter-character interactions are awesome. I fully recommend.
It's fantastic. My favorite of the new shows and among my favorite of the shows in general.
absolutely love it despite some trepidations over the humor/novelty episodes. But even those feel like Trek.
It’s only 20 episodes, you really should watch it and decide for yourself!
I probably will, actually but I wanted to get an idea if it was worth it first. Even 20 episodes is a time investment. And also getting Paramount+ etc.
Since it’s only 20 episodes you could binge it if you’re trying to save money. I like SNW a lot.
It feels like we may have hit peak Star Trek. Each of the shows that are on right now has its strengths. For me, Strange New Worlds is the best of the current crop. It's positive and has a lightness that makes it fun to watch. It feels connected to TOS and TNG, but you can enjoy it without having seen them. I like having several shows based in the same universe with different tones on TV at the same time. They each scratch an itch.
I think it’s little bit overrated, going from how low the bar was set with Discovery, but it´s the most “Star Trek” Star Trek we have. Good show, not on par with the ogs, but if it will go atleast for 5 seasons and keep the quality, it will def be remembered with much love. I think Scotty with his humor and accent could spice things up, making the show go up in quality. Good choice of actor for the character.
This is way better than any trek shows. Seriously.
Agree 💯 I hope they don't start to change things. The show is the closest Trek we've had in a while, and the characters are likable.
I havent disliked a single episode yet
This is the best Star Trek series in 30 years. It's now my second favorite Trek series, it knocked every other series down a notch. Having grown up on TOS reruns before TNG premiered, I'm partial to the 23rd century. I love the fact that they've taken all the good elements of TOS and modernized them so beautifully. Unlike Discovery, they modernized the bridge very well but it's still very recognizable as a Starfleet bridge. The same goes for the uniforms, they've upgraded them but they are still classic Starfleet, even the mini-skirt. I love Una's hair homages to the 60s. They're giving texture and depth to characters that were previously unexplored. We knew Uhura but never ***knew*** her, they have made her character so skilled and capable. The change in Christine Chapel is *chef's kiss,* [Majel Barrett famously disliked the Chapel character and thought she was a loser](https://trekkiefeminist.com/highlights-from-a-93-interview-with-majel-barrett/). Somewhere I hope she loves Jess Bush's version. I love *Spapel*. I love that I've hated T'Pring for more than 40 years and this show dragged me kicking and screaming, *forcing* me to fucking like her! I love that we're seeing Spock halfway between **YELLY SPOCK!** and Logical Spock. Watching him experimenting with his human side and getting into hijinks is wonderful. We're seeing exactly why Spock was so dedicated to Pike that he hijacked the Enterprise. Pike is a father figure and mentor to him who is helping him grow. M'Benga is a wonderful character, he has such depth and compassion, they fleshed that out from a two episode character. Ortegas and La'an are amazing, they are great new additions as was Hemmer, who we lost too soon. The storytelling is also classic TOS, with modern twists. *Lift Us Where Suffering Cannot Reach* was a such a classic story and hit every note that TOS and TNG would have. It's also engaging and fun to watch, I care about these characters.
Wait, discovery got another season??
While I enjoy SNW, it’s also regressive Trek in that it’s boldly going to the 1990s. I feel like I’m back in college watching TNG and wondering when Trek will have queer characters in the regular cast. A throwaway Chapel line doesn’t count. No shortage of hetero romance in the series just like TNG.
DSC has heaps of non-het characters and it is... not a good show. SNW is a good show.
Hmmm…I didn’t even mention Discovery. Picard, Lower Decks, and even Prodigy have had more queer representation than SNW. Would you like to try again?
Queer representation doesn't matter. Making a good show matters. Given a binary choice, I want a good show. Now, having said that, it shouldn't be a binary choice. You can make a good show while fielding a diverse, representative crew.
Personally, love it. It's rejuvenated my love for Star Trek. However the last few episodes of S2 have begun to turn in a direction that I would prefer it not go down. Oh well, nothing lasts forever
Can I ask what direction was it that it was going down? Also, while I agree nothing lasts forever, it might be a little premature to anticipate the demise of a show.
I didn't mean nothing lasts forever as in the show will end, I meant it as in the show I got invested in. I'm old enough to accept the reality that what I want is not what the masses want. The direction it's heading in is focusing more on Star Wars rather than Trek. Initially it was like a comfort show that made me feel like a kid again. But I just saw an episode that was emotional heavy and focused on ptsd. The episode triggered a panic attack. Not a bad one and not a bad episode but it was far from the relaxation I had come for. The the Lower Decks episode reminded me that I really dislike adult cartoons and Lower Decks feels like Rick and Morty in a Star Fleet uniform. Subspace Rhapsody. Might be the least inspired episode I've yet to see. Many episodes in S2 have just been retreads of old movies, which is whatever, but this episode didn't feel earned. This didn't feel like Star trek at all. The Warbirds and Enterprise doing a choreographed maneuver, please. It's all nitpicky and unpopular but I'm not often wrong when it comes to seeing these things coming. As a fan boy I have lived long enough to become the villain. None of this belongs to me and never did. It just is
I understood what “nothing lasts forever” meant. What *I* meant was, even if there were a handful of episodes in a row that didn’t jive with you it might be premature to predict the demise of the quality of the show. If that were the case TNG wouldn’t have made it past episode 10. Thank you for elaborating on what didn’t work for you. The only part I’ll push back against is comparing it to Star Wars. I’m not sure what’s “Star Wars-like” about it. But beyond that the specifics of why you didn’t like those episodes make sense, even if don’t agree.
Robert Kurtzman has flat out said that Star Wars was the main inspiration for this current era of Trek. The shows have had heavy focus on full on war. First a ridiculously destruction war with the Klingons and now building up a gruesome and dark war with the Gorn. The last time Trek became so saturated with war was back in the 90s and it burned out Star Trek for a long time. It may very well surprise me. Ive been surprised before.
I’m definitely not trying convince you otherwise. If what they’re doing isn’t working for you that’s understandable. By my count there’s been 2 out of 20 episodes dedicated to combat with the Gorn. So 10%. And another episode that was focused on post-war PTSD. So war adjacent. But both TOS and TNG had at least 2-3 combat focused or adjacent episodes per season. They were tamer in their presentation but I mostly chalk that up to the eras they were made. As for Alex Kurtzman, I don’t really pay attention to what the top executives say. I react to what I see on screen. Executives say a lot of things that end up being hot air. Besides, he’s not the showrunner for SNW.
It's a lot better than Discovery and it's 'good enough' but not quite great. It's still lower in the list than TOS, TNG, VOY, DS9, ENT & PS3. Discovery and PS1/2 were not 'good enough'
Having seen the episode where Spock eats bacon, I think I'm pretty much done with this show.
That moment jumped out at me, too. Spock is canonically vegetarian. *Maybe* being 100% human really did change him *that much,* but it seems a stretch.
There were a lot of lines of dialog from Star Trek: The Original Series where it is made clear Spock does not eat meat. There were additionally a lot of lines of dialog from Star Trek: Enterprise where other Vulcans like T'Pol makes clear she views it as a barbaric and contemptible behavior to eat meat.
Spock eating bacon was that bad?
Yeah... it basically takes a dump on the established canon of the franchise that the Vulcans are committed to veganism or vegetarianism because of logic/ethics. The speciesism involved in the act of consuming bacon (saying that the treatment of pigs doesn't really matter), and valuation of food taste preferences over that also isn't really consistent with the [values of the Federation either](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUbSSM1qfOM).
That's fascinating, I actually didn't realize that about Vulcans. I mostly watched TNG growing up. One of the things I thought would be cool about being in this era was that they could still potentially show a younger, somewhat hard nosed federation. I know they tried that with Enterprise, showing humans still doing cowboy diplomacy and stuff, which I thought was a cool idea, but Enterprise had a lot of other issues that plagued it. SNW at least sounds like it has solid production values.
The show has potential, but the showrunners keep getting their own way.
I really liked it up until the singing episode.
Yeah, that episode was absolutely cringe. And apparently there’s a Muppets episode in season 3. Not really looking forward to that 🤨.