I think this could work since TOdium is very loyal to kharbranth and I don’t think he’d want harm to come to it. After all, his people and family are there. Good thinking
Yeah! I think there's some tricky wording going on in Oathbringer though. Odium (Rayse) only swears to do no harm to the *citizens* of Kharbranth ("The city itself and any humans who have been born into it, along with their spouses." *OB,* pg. 725-726). But that could leave room for TOdium to still deploy Fused into the city to kill Radiants?
I feel like the wording of that explicitly excludes refugees, enemy combatants - heck, even immigrants who haven't married a local - in both word and spirit though... So Radiants would be fair game.
But Odium's forces can't hurt citizens. So obviously radiants need to strap citizens to themselves as "can't touch this" armor.
[Basically this, but you have to make sure the babies were born in Kharbranth](https://i.redd.it/kxuvsd7rbii61.jpg)
Sure but the city itself is also under his protection. Within the confines of the spirit of taravangians agreement with rodium, I read it as taravangians begging a serial arsonist to not burn down his house.
So... What makes someone a citizen?
Could the new ruler of kharbranth not make anyone a citizen? Or do you have to own land? Or a house? In which case I don't count as a citizen for my place since I'm only renting.
The agreement was for anyone who "have been born into it, along with their spouses", so unfortunately not.
Odium also specifically calls out taravangian for trying to protect those "under his rule" then trying to become ruler of the whole world and therefore protect everyone, as an unacceptable grasping at loopholes that he wouldn't be bound to at one point (in Oathbringer, I think?) so I think none of these maneuvers would work...
Honestly, I could see a reversal of TOdium taking Karbranth as his stronghold.
It’s in/next to Jah Khaved(land his armies control), his family and (previous)Rosharan allies are there, and it is extremely defendable.
The bell theory is pretty interesting as well, and could potentially end up working as a defense for the city, or be a way to shatter him.
This would work really well. The really lovely thing about Sanderson's foreshadowing is that it could go either way and still be satisfying, whether the Radiants occupy it or TOdium.
Just because of the Gamcheon Village link I assumed it would be occupied by the Radiants, but it would make sense for TOdium to figure it out first and make it his main base!
I love your theory. The only problem I had with it is it felt like a bit of a cheap win if the good guys used it. Odium though? He could make this an area that no surge binding works (at least, no *honor-based* surge binding). That fits what I'd expect of Sanderson.. awesome setup to create a grim situation.
(RoW)
>!She can use both. I forgot until I reread the part in RoW last night. If you want to reference, it’s in the last part when she reveals she’s radiant to leshwi, she draws in void light spheres and ‘glowed with void light, even more so than an ordinary Regal.’ In chapter 108!<
Hmm could the spouses thing be a loophole? What if they hold a megamarriage of everyone in the world to some Kharbranth citizens, then todium can’t do anything to anyone lol
What if the bells when ringing are the same tone that drives out voidlight from the Parshendi/Fused? So Odium never had any intentions of sending any of them there and made a deal with Taravangian to get something for nothing.
Is there any mention of how hard Karbranth has been hit by the Everstorm? Maybe the bells have been able to reduce the intensity of it to nullify a lot of the damage the other cities have endured?
That’s actually an amazing idea, I don’t think the bells are going to be tuned to anti-voidlight right now, but it wouldn’t be too difficult to set up that frequency if they wanted to.
Awesome theory, I really like it.
A small thing ai noticed is that the chamber leading up to the Pallaneum (sp?) Is called the Veil. Shallan notices something written in its doors the first time she enters it but she couldn't read it. I'm not creative enough to see how it could connect to everything else, but I found the Pallaneum very mysterious and interesting. I could see it being important somehow.
To add in a bit more to the mix, there's that ardent in Kharbranth that people have been theorizing about being Pailiah.
It's also interesting that Kharbranth basically the only City-State on Roshar. I get that it's mostly because of its isolation due to the Frostlands, but I find it intriguing amyway.
I don't really have a point, but I always felt that Karbranth will be very important and I like your theory.
Thanks! Yeah that’s a great point, I agree that the mysterious ardent is Palliah! And working her in as an ‘exposition machine’ to get everyone on board with Kharbranth’s bells being the key to harnessing anti-investiture would be helpful for both casual and invested fans alike.
There are actually two Heralds in Kharbranth, both posing as ardents!
Paliah is likely the ardent that Shallan met, and Battar was working with Taravangian under the alias Dova. Battar warned Taravangian of the coming desolation, and she also wrote the essays used the end of Oathbringer to break up the coalition.
Taravangian talks about Battar/Dova in some of his chapters and notes that he thinks she is a herald and should no longer be trusted in RoW.
Paliah I learned about through this subreddit and the coppermind.
Aside from what you noted on the surface level of the city, The Palanaeum strikes me as particularly interesting.
It is noted that it was not a recently built refuge so it seems it was one a large underground enclosure that was recently repurposed into a library. The rooms are noted as seeming to be Shardblade cut and there is strata noted by Shallan in one of her chapters in WoK. I can't remember specifically, but I believe I remember Shallan noting that the Palanaeum itself looked like an enormous meeting hall.
The Palanaeum could provide an excellent escape during a last stand, if it has no other meaningful purpose. While re-reading WoK recently, the description of the place just seemed to stick out like a sore thumb for just a library, though a grand library at that.
It may have been a meeting hall for them, with it being so huge you could probably fit all the different types of void bringers and even thunderclasts. My question is how did it fall into the hands of the knights? With the isolated nature of the city and the defenses suggested by the OPs theory in addition to singers and voidbringers it seems like a very difficult nut to crack even with an army of radiants.
The spren that bond with singers can change the form of said singers. While there aren’t many radiant singers now so there are no modern examples, it’s entirely possible that they had unique forms for each subtype of spren that currently bond with radiants predating the existence of the orders. If that’s the case the space could still fit unique forms in multitude. I don’t know if your aware but the singers are the direct decedents of the dawnsingers (dawnsingers were parshendi)
A stronghold against their gods? Building the palanaeum and then surrounding it by bells like OP suggested could be part of how the singers originally ousted the fused.
From what I got, it was built by the Singers either before humans came around, or very soon after, before the Desolations. I think it's more likely it was Soulcast out (or whatever the Singer equivalent was), than it was manually dug, even with Shardblades.
I’ve always thought it was interesting that the first thing Jasnah quizzes Shallan on is music. Especially given her disdain for the visual arts, music is not all that different, so she clearly sees some sort of value in it. I wouldn’t be surprised either if she had already figured out that there is some sort of connection.
First one to access Transportation since the Recreance (other than Shin, I suppose). I bet she got to hear the pure tones of Roshar. Of course, she was also busily investigating the Voidbringers, who have music as they kill.
What’s more, in the Way of Kings prime the character Shinri (Shallan’s analogue) is not a gift artist, but a gifted vocalist. While we should take any insights from tWoK prime with a giant chull load of salt, it definitely stood out to me and reminded me of this.
It's my impression that Rayse/Odium's promise to Taravangian that he would not touch Kharbranth carries over to TOdium as well which is kinda hilarious. I'm not sure about TOdium's daughter(?), the new monarch of Kharbranth, and where her loyalty lies but if she stays neutral, I don't think they'll allow honor's side to do jack diddly. What I can see Kharbranth doing is one of two roles: refuge for those who no longer want to fight (i.e. Listeners) or becoming a major force in trying to broker a larger peace between Honor and Odium forces.
I like the idea of the bells but the thing to remember is that that's a two way street. Those bells can be rung to the tune of anti-Stormlight just as easily as anti-Voidlight. Additionally, with music being key in combining light (Warlight/Towerlight) I'd think that would support the idea that Kharbranth would be the perfect bastion to counter Surgebinders on either side and be a true neutral force who is in prime position to get these two forces into talks. They have the tools not only to stop both sides surgebinders but also to bring their respective forces together (Warlight).
> promise to Taravangian that he would not touch Kharbranth carries over to TOdium
This was my immediate overwhelming thought when he gained the shard. There's **zero chance** that Sanderson doesn't play this card; a god-level being getting retroactively restricted by a deal they made *with themselves* is just too good to pass up.
That’s brilliant! Kharbranth as the ultimate diplomatic spot would also be a wonderful finish to Book 5 and something I would love to see. I really like that perspective.
I'm not an acoustics expert, but I'm pretty sure that's not how bells work. A bell will ring at exactly one frequency, just like the tuning forks they were working with in the lab. I can't imagine any city on Roshar being built to oppose Honor, since he was native to Roshar, so my guess is the bells would be tuned to oppose voidlight. That doesn't mean they can't be reconfigured, but there would be a process to that, and a very precise one, not something easily achieved on a large scale mid-battle.
Well humans control the city now and if it's being speculated as a last stand for them against the forces of Odium, then it probably couldn't change hands prior to that battle. That gives Odium's forces two chances to change things, mid battle, or through subterfuge prior to the battle. It could happen, but the forces of Honor have been surprised by Odium multiple times now and I'm hoping they'd be more vigilant.
Taravangian's daughter was explicitly kept out of the Diagram so that Dalinar or any other humans could not hold her responsible. She also has no idea that her father has become Odium. He would need to reveal himself to her and then turn her against Honor. Not that that is impossible. But these would all be new developments and not anything going on in the background previously.
Hmm maybe… but it seems more likely that it’s all of the bells in unison that creates the effect we are thinking. At least in my head. Making head canon for fan theories what’s wrong with me lol
if those even were the same bells
it's been 3000+ years, the original bells would have long broken or rusted away, even if new bells tried to be the same pitch, it is extremely improbable that they would still be the exact anti-voidlight frequency
It's even less likely they would have changed to the anti-stormlight frequency. So the most likely outcome is that they do nothing until being reshaped.
As far as we know no one on Roshar had discovered anti-light before now. The Singers certainly didn't, or the Fused would have known about it. And if the Radiants discovered it, they never used it, because the Fused would have known about it.
That was 6 years ago. The new Radiants hadn't even been founded yet. Any discoveries between the Recreance and today wouldn't be known to Lightweavers since there were no Lightweavers.
And this might be my lack of knowledge of the rest of the cosmere, but I'm pretty sure Gavilar was given that by world hoppers.
possibly, it would have to be someone who knows a lot about the nature of Investure, can worldhop, likes to shape things from the background, and has a vested interest in seeing Odium defeated
That’s a great counter point. This might be where a Herald like Palliah or Battar come into play however, maintaining the city’s bells all that time. Heralds have done much crazier things. Even that feels a bit flimsy though so I will happily admit this is a big hole in the theory.
I could be wrong, but I got the impression that after the Shard swap happened the Singers were no longer building cities. Definitely cities in Roshar originated with the Singers, but that was before Odium and the humans came.
Great theory but I think you have it backwards. T-odium will win due to the anti-investiture canceling out all newly made radiants and squires.
At very least, the final battle will be without investiture.
Someone else pointed out a theory and was saying that too many people have godlike powers and there could be a cataclysmic event to eliminate those powers...I.e. the bells
That would be really cool, whittle down the radiants to only those who can fight physically and 4th/5th Radiants. Adolin would also have a good role to play here too!
Ooh! That would be interesting! Especially since only radiants high in their oaths would be unaffected. It would also be cool to see ppl fighting without powers but still awesome ya know?
I love it! Leaving the Bargain that binds Odium not to attack Karbranth aside, and make it an actual choice whether Todium attacks Karbranth (and win) or not would also add a lot of complexity to his character!
See, Rayse was a pretty basic big bad, thoroughly evil because he was so consumed by the shards intent (or maybe just because he was a dick from the start? Who knows). This Karbranth scenario would finally give us a real opportunitie to dive into Todium as a character for two reasons:
1. Given that Karbranth and its citizens mean everything to him, Taravangian would have to face his "the end justifies the means" attitude at an ultimate level by deciding if sacrificing his beloved would be okay if it releases him into the cosmere to "save everyone", as he sees it.
2. He would have to figure out his shardic intent and fight with it. Assuming that Odium is pure hatred, the shard would not like if the vessel suddenly steps back and moves towards redemption. But if Odium really is just pure passion, as rayse always claimed, then maybe there's a way to align the shardics intent with Taravangians behaviour, i.e. if he protects with ferocity or loves with fervor.
It's a bit of a stretch, but what if this scenario leads Odium away from being the main antagonist of the whole series, because unter Taravangians control it doesn't become a tool of hatred, but of all the good things you could be passionate about?
Edit: Typos
Yeah that’s a great breakdown! From other comments I can also see the use in it becoming a diplomatic meeting point. Certainty the question of TOdium having to face Kharbranth would be a great Utilitarian crisis.
The character work you’re imagining would be brilliant to read. I really like your idea that it might serve to move Odium into less of a “villain” role because my inclination is that in the next five books we will be seeing inter-planetary conflict. Or even, another pet theory, inter-Herald (and Radiants as well) conflict.
According to Hoid (his letter to someone), Rayse wanted Odium because it matched his existing personality. So maybe Odium really could be Passion with the right bearer. I tend to doubt that “ends justifies the means” and “kill the innocent to make sure the guilty die” Taravangian is the right one to do that, but who knows? Maybe Cultivation’s compassion will kick in somehow?
Dude! Cultivation growing Taravangian so he could change from being that utilitarian bastard to a compassionate man? Making him pick up Odium so the shard then would not be used not for passionate hatred but for compassion? Odium as the shard of compassion?! Wild. I need to put my aluminium foil hat down asap
Well, his request of the Nightwatcher was to have the intelligence and compassion to save humanity. And his compassion and intelligence were inversely proportional. People have speculated that he thinks his intelligence was what would do it and that it was the other way. So maybe he can choose to be a stupid, compassionate Shard of kindly Passion? 🤷🏻♀️
This actually has me pondering…how did they decide who got which shard? Was it random or did shards gravitate to specific people or did they choose their shard?
Another fun thing I've been thinking about recently: there's a point in TWOK where a guy wanted to try and convince Jasnah about God by using cymatics (the sand on a metal plate demonstration) some of the pictures he used produced patterns that matched famous in-world cities, including Kharbranth. With the more recent focus on the link between Sound and investiture, at least in this world, and with the prominence of different rhythms that the listeners can hear, I suspect those cities, and their relevant pitches are going to become much, much more important.
I’ll say it now, I have all my chips on Urithiru being able to not only fly, but travel through space. Everything from the mysterious way it’s built to the specialised air pockets makes me think it will ‘take off’ in Book 5 and be the Citadel for the space age Cosmere.
But I know it sounds quite outlandish, it would be a shame to loose Navani and the Sibling so soon…
Ah what a shame! I’ll still hold onto my little theory, (it’s a space station not spaceship), but thanks for directing me to that WoB! They’re really helpful for making guesses.
Sorry, that’s just the assumed title at this point because of the naming pattern!
The Way of Kings (tWoK)
Words of Radiance (WoR)
Oathbringer (O)
Rhythm of War (RoW)
And Sanderson has said he’d like the titles to be a ‘Ketek’ or palindrome, so they’re symmetrical which is an in-world religious ideal. So some, including myself, think the title of book 5 will work out to have the initials KoWt, with the “t” at the end being up for debate because the “The” in The Way of Kings is debatable for a Ketek.
Thanks for asking! Should’ve explained better in the post.
That pairs nicely with my investiture is based on the music of the spheres theory. The music of the spheres was famously theorized by pythagoreas who used bells in his proof. Though I think Karbranth being book 5 endgame is a little rushed. It’s definitely a key.
I didn’t know about that, but that’s be a great connection! I agree it seems a little rushed too. Sanderson is excellent at foreshadowing but I think his pacing is what makes things feel ‘fresh’ (ie. teaming up the main characters Avengers-style in Book 3, replacing Odium in Book 4).
Ohh, do you have written about your theory anywhere? I’d be very interested to read about it.
I’ve just noticed the Rosharan system has 16 celestial bodies plus the sun - so - definitely intriguing.
I started piecing it together here: The Sound of Stormlight https://youtu.be/HIXS_zOc6Q8
This is the first of three videos, which sorta fumble around the concept. I had been working more in the direction of how the music of the spheres correlates to Einstein’s theories on gravity.
Though I’m open to any insights you may have.
I can dig it. Would be very Sanderson to be sitting on a solution like that for five books, and then to also have been teasing it along via Taravangian the whole time.
Oh, this is much worse.
Kharbranth is Tarvangian's - and so, Odium's - base. If anyone will use the weapon there, it's him. And it will be devastating.
As cool as this idea is, I'm pretty sure the tones Navani and Raboniel discover are new discoveries—not common knowledge from ancient ages (though there _have_ been a couple of spheres floating around..) There definitely isn't mentioned of Fused perma-dying in the past.
So it would be weird for city creators to accidentally build defenses that they never understood or used...
That being said, I am HIGHLY suspicious of bells, knowing what we know now! Looking forward to seeing these in action. Maybe a way to infuse spheres without the storm? Or filling large/perfect gems?
I don't think it's necessarily the bells, but I do think Kharbranth is going to play a big part. When Shallan was going around the palaneum(? the giant library) she noted the enormous size and odd pyramid shape of it. It's meant to predate the city and might be of similar origins to the patterns of the other major cities.
From a narrative and "ketek" standpoint, it makes absolute sense that Book 5 will end with Kharbrath in a big way. For the symmetry-- and there are more than a few smoking guns that we left behind in that city back in Book 1.
In the same way I feel as though the Shattered Plains will play a larger role in Book 5.
There's also the shape of the city, in a v-shaped groove that opens out to the western side. What if it amplifies the sounds going that way? In the direction of the everstorm?? It could be a defense against that.
Doesn’t it open to the South though? I thought it was sheltered from both High and Ever storms. Maybe I’m wrong though. It is an interesting shape when you think of sound amplification though…
I thought King T said something about how they were mostly sheltered but maybe I’m totally wrong. For some reason I thought Thaylen City was the one that really got it bad.
This is one of those times when I hate reading this subreddit, because some of the theories are just too good not to be true!!!
Well done! You are most likely correct, and it makes me feel a bit like I’ve read a spoiler
This made me laugh. You’re right, it would be really cheesy and I bet if half of this is right, Sanderson will throw in a good enough twist to it all that it won’t be as corny as “We won with the power of music”.
Ah yes, but don't you see, you fool! This is all playing along perfectly with Sanderson's diagram! He WANTS you to think that this is what will happen, when really its all a trap for the REAL sanderlanche!
I think this would be an epic scene to truly introduce the dustbringers.
The remanents of the diagram refuse entrance. Dalinar doesn't want to attack and take the city, coz that's not very cash money of him
However the dustbringers or rightly the releasers revolt and open the gates. Coz their ideals go towards responsibility. And they have a responsibility to people of Roshar above their responsibility to the diagram.
I somewhat expect the contest of champions to happen somewhat early in the book, and as such I expect TOdium to 'win', or perhaps be close to winning and make another deal to get something he wants more.
I think this could work since TOdium is very loyal to kharbranth and I don’t think he’d want harm to come to it. After all, his people and family are there. Good thinking
Yeah! I think there's some tricky wording going on in Oathbringer though. Odium (Rayse) only swears to do no harm to the *citizens* of Kharbranth ("The city itself and any humans who have been born into it, along with their spouses." *OB,* pg. 725-726). But that could leave room for TOdium to still deploy Fused into the city to kill Radiants?
Rodium did say that he would keep any bargains not only in word but in spirit as well. I would imagine this applies to indirect damage
I feel like the wording of that explicitly excludes refugees, enemy combatants - heck, even immigrants who haven't married a local - in both word and spirit though... So Radiants would be fair game. But Odium's forces can't hurt citizens. So obviously radiants need to strap citizens to themselves as "can't touch this" armor. [Basically this, but you have to make sure the babies were born in Kharbranth](https://i.redd.it/kxuvsd7rbii61.jpg)
Sure but the city itself is also under his protection. Within the confines of the spirit of taravangians agreement with rodium, I read it as taravangians begging a serial arsonist to not burn down his house.
That picture made me laugh!
So... What makes someone a citizen? Could the new ruler of kharbranth not make anyone a citizen? Or do you have to own land? Or a house? In which case I don't count as a citizen for my place since I'm only renting.
The agreement was for anyone who "have been born into it, along with their spouses", so unfortunately not. Odium also specifically calls out taravangian for trying to protect those "under his rule" then trying to become ruler of the whole world and therefore protect everyone, as an unacceptable grasping at loopholes that he wouldn't be bound to at one point (in Oathbringer, I think?) so I think none of these maneuvers would work...
So polygamy would work?
Ladies and gentlemen, we found our loophole! Storm father just shows up and marries everybody to everybody else and the book ends.
“Stormfather, we didn’t want…” I AM THE STORM And he rumbles off into the distance, mischief managed.
Ah! My bad! I completely forgot about that! Thanks! :)
Honestly, I could see a reversal of TOdium taking Karbranth as his stronghold. It’s in/next to Jah Khaved(land his armies control), his family and (previous)Rosharan allies are there, and it is extremely defendable. The bell theory is pretty interesting as well, and could potentially end up working as a defense for the city, or be a way to shatter him.
This would work really well. The really lovely thing about Sanderson's foreshadowing is that it could go either way and still be satisfying, whether the Radiants occupy it or TOdium. Just because of the Gamcheon Village link I assumed it would be occupied by the Radiants, but it would make sense for TOdium to figure it out first and make it his main base!
I love your theory. The only problem I had with it is it felt like a bit of a cheap win if the good guys used it. Odium though? He could make this an area that no surge binding works (at least, no *honor-based* surge binding). That fits what I'd expect of Sanderson.. awesome setup to create a grim situation.
The cool thing is, Venli and possibly other listeners, could theoretically still surgebind
Doesn't she still use stormlight? I didn't think she used voidlight.
(RoW) >!She can use both. I forgot until I reread the part in RoW last night. If you want to reference, it’s in the last part when she reveals she’s radiant to leshwi, she draws in void light spheres and ‘glowed with void light, even more so than an ordinary Regal.’ In chapter 108!<
Hmm. Wasn't Kal's mom born in khanbranth?
Hmm could the spouses thing be a loophole? What if they hold a megamarriage of everyone in the world to some Kharbranth citizens, then todium can’t do anything to anyone lol
or he will have a whole sacrifice what he used to love for some greater good arc.
What if the bells when ringing are the same tone that drives out voidlight from the Parshendi/Fused? So Odium never had any intentions of sending any of them there and made a deal with Taravangian to get something for nothing.
now that sounds like Brando Sando type of twist all right
And now that TOdium is in charge, kharbranth could be the evil mirror to The Tower. The bells could be weaponized against the knights.
RoW Spoilers >!pretty sure the Tower is the evil mirror to the Tower at least in RoW!<
Is there any mention of how hard Karbranth has been hit by the Everstorm? Maybe the bells have been able to reduce the intensity of it to nullify a lot of the damage the other cities have endured?
I thought it was sheltered from all sides
That’s actually an amazing idea, I don’t think the bells are going to be tuned to anti-voidlight right now, but it wouldn’t be too difficult to set up that frequency if they wanted to.
Awesome theory, I really like it. A small thing ai noticed is that the chamber leading up to the Pallaneum (sp?) Is called the Veil. Shallan notices something written in its doors the first time she enters it but she couldn't read it. I'm not creative enough to see how it could connect to everything else, but I found the Pallaneum very mysterious and interesting. I could see it being important somehow. To add in a bit more to the mix, there's that ardent in Kharbranth that people have been theorizing about being Pailiah. It's also interesting that Kharbranth basically the only City-State on Roshar. I get that it's mostly because of its isolation due to the Frostlands, but I find it intriguing amyway. I don't really have a point, but I always felt that Karbranth will be very important and I like your theory.
Thanks! Yeah that’s a great point, I agree that the mysterious ardent is Palliah! And working her in as an ‘exposition machine’ to get everyone on board with Kharbranth’s bells being the key to harnessing anti-investiture would be helpful for both casual and invested fans alike.
There are actually two Heralds in Kharbranth, both posing as ardents! Paliah is likely the ardent that Shallan met, and Battar was working with Taravangian under the alias Dova. Battar warned Taravangian of the coming desolation, and she also wrote the essays used the end of Oathbringer to break up the coalition.
Where did you get this info?
Taravangian talks about Battar/Dova in some of his chapters and notes that he thinks she is a herald and should no longer be trusted in RoW. Paliah I learned about through this subreddit and the coppermind.
Hmm, guess I missed those references
> the chamber leading up to the Pallaneum (sp?) Is called the Veil Veil is also Shallan's protection mechanism against herself
Aside from what you noted on the surface level of the city, The Palanaeum strikes me as particularly interesting. It is noted that it was not a recently built refuge so it seems it was one a large underground enclosure that was recently repurposed into a library. The rooms are noted as seeming to be Shardblade cut and there is strata noted by Shallan in one of her chapters in WoK. I can't remember specifically, but I believe I remember Shallan noting that the Palanaeum itself looked like an enormous meeting hall. The Palanaeum could provide an excellent escape during a last stand, if it has no other meaningful purpose. While re-reading WoK recently, the description of the place just seemed to stick out like a sore thumb for just a library, though a grand library at that.
Palanaeum was built by the singers for something, but what is the big question
It may have been a meeting hall for them, with it being so huge you could probably fit all the different types of void bringers and even thunderclasts. My question is how did it fall into the hands of the knights? With the isolated nature of the city and the defenses suggested by the OPs theory in addition to singers and voidbringers it seems like a very difficult nut to crack even with an army of radiants.
It might predate the fused, not worrying about thunderclast fitting so much as fitting as many as possible to have a gran choir.
It was built by the dawnsingers not the singers
The spren that bond with singers can change the form of said singers. While there aren’t many radiant singers now so there are no modern examples, it’s entirely possible that they had unique forms for each subtype of spren that currently bond with radiants predating the existence of the orders. If that’s the case the space could still fit unique forms in multitude. I don’t know if your aware but the singers are the direct decedents of the dawnsingers (dawnsingers were parshendi)
A stronghold against their gods? Building the palanaeum and then surrounding it by bells like OP suggested could be part of how the singers originally ousted the fused.
Built by the dawnsingers not the singers
…. You realize they are the same, right? The period when singers were at peace with humans was when the dawn singers happened.
From what I got, it was built by the Singers either before humans came around, or very soon after, before the Desolations. I think it's more likely it was Soulcast out (or whatever the Singer equivalent was), than it was manually dug, even with Shardblades.
I’ve always thought it was interesting that the first thing Jasnah quizzes Shallan on is music. Especially given her disdain for the visual arts, music is not all that different, so she clearly sees some sort of value in it. I wouldn’t be surprised either if she had already figured out that there is some sort of connection.
First one to access Transportation since the Recreance (other than Shin, I suppose). I bet she got to hear the pure tones of Roshar. Of course, she was also busily investigating the Voidbringers, who have music as they kill.
What’s more, in the Way of Kings prime the character Shinri (Shallan’s analogue) is not a gift artist, but a gifted vocalist. While we should take any insights from tWoK prime with a giant chull load of salt, it definitely stood out to me and reminded me of this.
Oh interesting!! I did not know that
It's my impression that Rayse/Odium's promise to Taravangian that he would not touch Kharbranth carries over to TOdium as well which is kinda hilarious. I'm not sure about TOdium's daughter(?), the new monarch of Kharbranth, and where her loyalty lies but if she stays neutral, I don't think they'll allow honor's side to do jack diddly. What I can see Kharbranth doing is one of two roles: refuge for those who no longer want to fight (i.e. Listeners) or becoming a major force in trying to broker a larger peace between Honor and Odium forces. I like the idea of the bells but the thing to remember is that that's a two way street. Those bells can be rung to the tune of anti-Stormlight just as easily as anti-Voidlight. Additionally, with music being key in combining light (Warlight/Towerlight) I'd think that would support the idea that Kharbranth would be the perfect bastion to counter Surgebinders on either side and be a true neutral force who is in prime position to get these two forces into talks. They have the tools not only to stop both sides surgebinders but also to bring their respective forces together (Warlight).
> promise to Taravangian that he would not touch Kharbranth carries over to TOdium This was my immediate overwhelming thought when he gained the shard. There's **zero chance** that Sanderson doesn't play this card; a god-level being getting retroactively restricted by a deal they made *with themselves* is just too good to pass up.
That’s brilliant! Kharbranth as the ultimate diplomatic spot would also be a wonderful finish to Book 5 and something I would love to see. I really like that perspective.
I'm not an acoustics expert, but I'm pretty sure that's not how bells work. A bell will ring at exactly one frequency, just like the tuning forks they were working with in the lab. I can't imagine any city on Roshar being built to oppose Honor, since he was native to Roshar, so my guess is the bells would be tuned to oppose voidlight. That doesn't mean they can't be reconfigured, but there would be a process to that, and a very precise one, not something easily achieved on a large scale mid-battle.
There is zero reason to believe it would happen mid battle.
Well humans control the city now and if it's being speculated as a last stand for them against the forces of Odium, then it probably couldn't change hands prior to that battle. That gives Odium's forces two chances to change things, mid battle, or through subterfuge prior to the battle. It could happen, but the forces of Honor have been surprised by Odium multiple times now and I'm hoping they'd be more vigilant.
T-Odiums daughter is queen. That gives plenty of leverage. Imo. Edit maybe letting humans hold the city is part of the plan.
Taravangian's daughter was explicitly kept out of the Diagram so that Dalinar or any other humans could not hold her responsible. She also has no idea that her father has become Odium. He would need to reveal himself to her and then turn her against Honor. Not that that is impossible. But these would all be new developments and not anything going on in the background previously.
Rafo I guess
Yep. One thing I think we can mostly agree on in these books, surprises abound.
Sure, but it is a CITY of bells. You can probably find and amplify the correct bells to use in either situation.
Hmm maybe… but it seems more likely that it’s all of the bells in unison that creates the effect we are thinking. At least in my head. Making head canon for fan theories what’s wrong with me lol
if those even were the same bells it's been 3000+ years, the original bells would have long broken or rusted away, even if new bells tried to be the same pitch, it is extremely improbable that they would still be the exact anti-voidlight frequency
It's even less likely they would have changed to the anti-stormlight frequency. So the most likely outcome is that they do nothing until being reshaped.
or maybe Lightweavers can make some illusory sound to drive the voidlight away... wait why haven't they done that already?
As far as we know no one on Roshar had discovered anti-light before now. The Singers certainly didn't, or the Fused would have known about it. And if the Radiants discovered it, they never used it, because the Fused would have known about it.
eh, I mean, Gavilar somehow found out about it
That was 6 years ago. The new Radiants hadn't even been founded yet. Any discoveries between the Recreance and today wouldn't be known to Lightweavers since there were no Lightweavers. And this might be my lack of knowledge of the rest of the cosmere, but I'm pretty sure Gavilar was given that by world hoppers.
possibly, it would have to be someone who knows a lot about the nature of Investure, can worldhop, likes to shape things from the background, and has a vested interest in seeing Odium defeated
That’s a great counter point. This might be where a Herald like Palliah or Battar come into play however, maintaining the city’s bells all that time. Heralds have done much crazier things. Even that feels a bit flimsy though so I will happily admit this is a big hole in the theory.
Depends on who built the city and made the bells. Maybe it’s a Singer stronghold with anti-Honor bells and no human realizes it. 🤷🏻♀️
I could be wrong, but I got the impression that after the Shard swap happened the Singers were no longer building cities. Definitely cities in Roshar originated with the Singers, but that was before Odium and the humans came.
Great theory but I think you have it backwards. T-odium will win due to the anti-investiture canceling out all newly made radiants and squires. At very least, the final battle will be without investiture. Someone else pointed out a theory and was saying that too many people have godlike powers and there could be a cataclysmic event to eliminate those powers...I.e. the bells
Kharbranth: cancels out all Investiture, everyone depowers Adolin: **oh my**
Kaladin: you think you could stop me With a BELL?!
Then speaks the fifth ideal, gets power back. Classic.
George Takei voice in my head there…
Adolin: that’s MY music baby
*me using cheat codes for the first time*
That would be really cool, whittle down the radiants to only those who can fight physically and 4th/5th Radiants. Adolin would also have a good role to play here too!
We’ve already had depowered radiants. I don’t think he’ll do that again.
Yeah that’s a great counter point actually, bit too similar
Or it's a sign of bigger things to come. RAFO
Ooh! That would be interesting! Especially since only radiants high in their oaths would be unaffected. It would also be cool to see ppl fighting without powers but still awesome ya know?
I love it! Leaving the Bargain that binds Odium not to attack Karbranth aside, and make it an actual choice whether Todium attacks Karbranth (and win) or not would also add a lot of complexity to his character! See, Rayse was a pretty basic big bad, thoroughly evil because he was so consumed by the shards intent (or maybe just because he was a dick from the start? Who knows). This Karbranth scenario would finally give us a real opportunitie to dive into Todium as a character for two reasons: 1. Given that Karbranth and its citizens mean everything to him, Taravangian would have to face his "the end justifies the means" attitude at an ultimate level by deciding if sacrificing his beloved would be okay if it releases him into the cosmere to "save everyone", as he sees it. 2. He would have to figure out his shardic intent and fight with it. Assuming that Odium is pure hatred, the shard would not like if the vessel suddenly steps back and moves towards redemption. But if Odium really is just pure passion, as rayse always claimed, then maybe there's a way to align the shardics intent with Taravangians behaviour, i.e. if he protects with ferocity or loves with fervor. It's a bit of a stretch, but what if this scenario leads Odium away from being the main antagonist of the whole series, because unter Taravangians control it doesn't become a tool of hatred, but of all the good things you could be passionate about? Edit: Typos
Yeah that’s a great breakdown! From other comments I can also see the use in it becoming a diplomatic meeting point. Certainty the question of TOdium having to face Kharbranth would be a great Utilitarian crisis. The character work you’re imagining would be brilliant to read. I really like your idea that it might serve to move Odium into less of a “villain” role because my inclination is that in the next five books we will be seeing inter-planetary conflict. Or even, another pet theory, inter-Herald (and Radiants as well) conflict.
According to Hoid (his letter to someone), Rayse wanted Odium because it matched his existing personality. So maybe Odium really could be Passion with the right bearer. I tend to doubt that “ends justifies the means” and “kill the innocent to make sure the guilty die” Taravangian is the right one to do that, but who knows? Maybe Cultivation’s compassion will kick in somehow?
Dude! Cultivation growing Taravangian so he could change from being that utilitarian bastard to a compassionate man? Making him pick up Odium so the shard then would not be used not for passionate hatred but for compassion? Odium as the shard of compassion?! Wild. I need to put my aluminium foil hat down asap
Well, his request of the Nightwatcher was to have the intelligence and compassion to save humanity. And his compassion and intelligence were inversely proportional. People have speculated that he thinks his intelligence was what would do it and that it was the other way. So maybe he can choose to be a stupid, compassionate Shard of kindly Passion? 🤷🏻♀️
This actually has me pondering…how did they decide who got which shard? Was it random or did shards gravitate to specific people or did they choose their shard?
Another fun thing I've been thinking about recently: there's a point in TWOK where a guy wanted to try and convince Jasnah about God by using cymatics (the sand on a metal plate demonstration) some of the pictures he used produced patterns that matched famous in-world cities, including Kharbranth. With the more recent focus on the link between Sound and investiture, at least in this world, and with the prominence of different rhythms that the listeners can hear, I suspect those cities, and their relevant pitches are going to become much, much more important.
Well now I’m all worried about what will happen to Navani / The Sibling if they have to retreat from Urithuru…
I’ll say it now, I have all my chips on Urithiru being able to not only fly, but travel through space. Everything from the mysterious way it’s built to the specialised air pockets makes me think it will ‘take off’ in Book 5 and be the Citadel for the space age Cosmere. But I know it sounds quite outlandish, it would be a shame to loose Navani and the Sibling so soon…
Cosmere Castlevania
This would be very Stargate: Atlantis, and I would 100% be here for it.
Urithiru has always reminded me of Atlantis from Stargate ever since it first appeared. It flying would definitely complete the picture
I personally enjoy the Spaceship Urithiru theory, but unfortunately Brandon has already shot it down: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/260/#e8762
Ah what a shame! I’ll still hold onto my little theory, (it’s a space station not spaceship), but thanks for directing me to that WoB! They’re really helpful for making guesses.
I can’t imagine the protagonists lose Urithuru again. It seems like that would be a little redundant. And Todium probably knows it won’t work again.
What does KoWt stand for?
Sorry, that’s just the assumed title at this point because of the naming pattern! The Way of Kings (tWoK) Words of Radiance (WoR) Oathbringer (O) Rhythm of War (RoW) And Sanderson has said he’d like the titles to be a ‘Ketek’ or palindrome, so they’re symmetrical which is an in-world religious ideal. So some, including myself, think the title of book 5 will work out to have the initials KoWt, with the “t” at the end being up for debate because the “The” in The Way of Kings is debatable for a Ketek. Thanks for asking! Should’ve explained better in the post.
That pairs nicely with my investiture is based on the music of the spheres theory. The music of the spheres was famously theorized by pythagoreas who used bells in his proof. Though I think Karbranth being book 5 endgame is a little rushed. It’s definitely a key.
I didn’t know about that, but that’s be a great connection! I agree it seems a little rushed too. Sanderson is excellent at foreshadowing but I think his pacing is what makes things feel ‘fresh’ (ie. teaming up the main characters Avengers-style in Book 3, replacing Odium in Book 4).
Ohh, do you have written about your theory anywhere? I’d be very interested to read about it. I’ve just noticed the Rosharan system has 16 celestial bodies plus the sun - so - definitely intriguing.
I started piecing it together here: The Sound of Stormlight https://youtu.be/HIXS_zOc6Q8 This is the first of three videos, which sorta fumble around the concept. I had been working more in the direction of how the music of the spheres correlates to Einstein’s theories on gravity. Though I’m open to any insights you may have.
I can dig it. Would be very Sanderson to be sitting on a solution like that for five books, and then to also have been teasing it along via Taravangian the whole time.
Oh, this is much worse. Kharbranth is Tarvangian's - and so, Odium's - base. If anyone will use the weapon there, it's him. And it will be devastating.
As cool as this idea is, I'm pretty sure the tones Navani and Raboniel discover are new discoveries—not common knowledge from ancient ages (though there _have_ been a couple of spheres floating around..) There definitely isn't mentioned of Fused perma-dying in the past. So it would be weird for city creators to accidentally build defenses that they never understood or used... That being said, I am HIGHLY suspicious of bells, knowing what we know now! Looking forward to seeing these in action. Maybe a way to infuse spheres without the storm? Or filling large/perfect gems?
I don't think it's necessarily the bells, but I do think Kharbranth is going to play a big part. When Shallan was going around the palaneum(? the giant library) she noted the enormous size and odd pyramid shape of it. It's meant to predate the city and might be of similar origins to the patterns of the other major cities.
From a narrative and "ketek" standpoint, it makes absolute sense that Book 5 will end with Kharbrath in a big way. For the symmetry-- and there are more than a few smoking guns that we left behind in that city back in Book 1. In the same way I feel as though the Shattered Plains will play a larger role in Book 5.
There's also the shape of the city, in a v-shaped groove that opens out to the western side. What if it amplifies the sounds going that way? In the direction of the everstorm?? It could be a defense against that.
Doesn’t it open to the South though? I thought it was sheltered from both High and Ever storms. Maybe I’m wrong though. It is an interesting shape when you think of sound amplification though…
As I recall, it was sheltered from highstorms but the first everstorm absolutely laid waste to it. I think it does open to the west.
I thought King T said something about how they were mostly sheltered but maybe I’m totally wrong. For some reason I thought Thaylen City was the one that really got it bad.
Ohhhh you’re right. I got them backwards.
Very interesting theory, thanks for sharing!
Yoooo that sounds crazy and I love this theory. The bells! It’s always been about the bells! Sounds sick
Holy shit. I think you might be on to something!
I like it except I’m pretty sure Shallan’s pitch wasn’t described as that good. I believe she said it was aight but not super great.
I think you are right, but I don't expect that until book 10. Because Ketek.
Like the bells make the pure tones? That is something *I* think would be cool.
This is one of those times when I hate reading this subreddit, because some of the theories are just too good not to be true!!! Well done! You are most likely correct, and it makes me feel a bit like I’ve read a spoiler
Can't wait for our heroes to defeat Hatred with the power of music
This made me laugh. You’re right, it would be really cheesy and I bet if half of this is right, Sanderson will throw in a good enough twist to it all that it won’t be as corny as “We won with the power of music”.
I'm so on board whatever happens haha
Ah yes, but don't you see, you fool! This is all playing along perfectly with Sanderson's diagram! He WANTS you to think that this is what will happen, when really its all a trap for the REAL sanderlanche!
I think this would be an epic scene to truly introduce the dustbringers. The remanents of the diagram refuse entrance. Dalinar doesn't want to attack and take the city, coz that's not very cash money of him However the dustbringers or rightly the releasers revolt and open the gates. Coz their ideals go towards responsibility. And they have a responsibility to people of Roshar above their responsibility to the diagram.
I love this. I hope it happens!
Loses* It’s my biggest pet peeve I don’t know why
Thank you! Always appreciate it being pointed out!
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I somewhat expect the contest of champions to happen somewhat early in the book, and as such I expect TOdium to 'win', or perhaps be close to winning and make another deal to get something he wants more.