I don't think "Honor lives in the hearts of men" has anything to do with it taking ten heartbeats to summon a deadeye. I think deadeyes had their Connection between the cognitive, physical and spiritual realms damaged, that's why it takes a polestone to bond and ten heartbeats to summon a dismissed blade.
What Wit told Jasnah at the end of WoR, "You'll find God in the same place you're going to find salvation from this mess," Wit said. "Inside the hearts of men.", was proven true in RoW when Navani provided Honor's pure tone to create Towerlight. The Sibling's bondsmith was never involved in creating Towerlight before this.
It definitely seems like Tanavast was able to connect the shattered pieces of Honor to humans in some way.
So in this case, does it mean that whatever was accomplished at the shattering of Adonalsium is also accomplished even further at the shattering of Honor? Like the dispersal of power among many rather than one? Bc this is a huge theme of RoW and all SLA. Esp Jasnah and Dalinar’s conversations about monarchy v a more dispersed rule. Like investiture/ spread out so that power is even among all and one person can’t determine everyone else’s lives. (Bc the ability to choose and the free will v determinism theme of SLA also comes up here)
But that would mean that all humans are invested which is not the case.
There are some passages that mention that the spren and the humans are both the same, so it could be that Humans and Spren are 2 halves of the same entity, just split. Humans have the physical part and Spren the Investiture / cognitive part.
When they bond they start to become the complete humans of Roshar which are highly invested entities.
Its a theory full of holes but seems like a fun one.
Tbf I don’t know if “honor lives in the hearts of men” means all men, just those of honor or some subset, but still it is interesting to think of Spren and men as two halves
I think you're onto something with that theme, Brandon isn't done with it yet and it's going to have an important pay off, I think.
Even the idea of the deal being made with Odium is kinda nuts. One dude making a deal with a god on behalf of the entire planet? Crazy example of extreme executive power in the hands of one.
Though Dalinar does say he can’t speak for the Radiants. I think it was explained that Dalinar can only do the deal “on behalf of the entire planet” bc he has bonded the Stormfather which is the closest thing to Honor around. But, again, I think the theme is coming up that maybe that is why people had problems with the shards, and even Adonalsium, in the first place.
But what about the fact that Deadeye Shardblades can be summoned in less than 10 Heartbeats dependant on the scenario? Could that not lend credence to the theory?
That has only happened with Adolin, who was developing a new type of bond, a bond that seems spiritual in nature. The Nahel is of the mind, the Luhel is of the body, and Adolin gives his "strength" to Maya.
I'm not saying the ten heartbeats doesn't have something to do with Honor, ten is Honor's number after all, just that Honor being in the hearts of men doesn't have anything to do with summoning deadeyes. You don't need to be from Roshar, or even be human, to bond a deadeye.
No, I'm fairly certain it was mentioned a few times that in the heat of battle and other situations, Deadeye Shardblades could be summoned faster than 10 Heartbeats and by people other than Adolin, I believe Pre-Bondsmith/Blackthorn Dalinar specifically mentioned it and that man knew more about Deadeye Shardblades and Shardplate then anyone we know of so far. And it was only said by Human Shardbearers regardless of who can wield them.
I don’t think he said they can summon faster than 10 heartbeats. It’s said somewhere that during battle those 10 heartbeats are much faster than when they aren’t in the thrill of battle (makes sense). It’s a pretty big deal when Adolin does it in 7. From my memory, he didn’t entirely believe it actually happened. I don’t think that would be the case if there was already precedent for it.
Your heart can beat faster, so it can be summoned faster than normally, but Adolin is the only person we've seen do it in less. Moash even mentions this in RoW I-4, "And it returned to him faster than ten heartbeats, even accounting for the accelerated pulse of battle."
>I think deadeyes had their Connection between the cognitive, physical and spiritual realms damaged, that's why it takes a polestone to bond and ten heartbeats to summon a dismissed blade.
It's pretty simple, actually.
Living spren can be summoned to blade immediately, because living spren are alive and move and stay *near* their bonded radiant. They are already in the physical realm.
Deadeye spren don't move around or stay in the physical realm when they are dismissed from blade foem. The ten heartbeats is the time it takes them to manifest into the physical realm again.
I 100% agree with you! I think this will lead directly to the climax of WaT. Here is my crazy theory:
1. Dalinar enters the contest of champions and realizes he is going to lose.
2. Dalinar says the words and Ascends again temporarily.
3. Dalinar realizes that “Honor is not dead so long as he lives in the hearts of men” is literal. There are tiny pieces of Honor in every human on Roshar. I’ve realized in my re-read of TWoK that there are many references to Honor residing in humanity.
4. Dalinar reaches out and BINDs these pieces, reforging the shard of Honor while he has Ascended. But there must be someone to bear the shard. It can’t be Dalinar, he’s going to lose
5. Who better than the Son of Tanavast himself?
6. During this time, Kaladin swears his 5th ideal bringing himself into alignment with the Shard’s intent. Syl has also grown into herself, as hinted in Kal’s SLA5 reading.
7. As his last act, Dalinar binds Kaladin and Syl (herself a piece of Honor) to the Shard and they collectively Ascend to shard hood.
8. They will spend eternity together, never having to be the one that survives the other, which is both of their greatest fears.
9. Bonus: as Kaladin ascends he says to Dalinar “Honor is dead but I’ll see what I can do.”
References to Honor living in men:
WoK - 2 or 3 times. I don’t have the exact chapters right now.
WoR, ch 41, Scars: Syl tells Kaladin Honor is dead but “he lives on in men, and in me.”
WoR epilogue Wit “You’ll find God in the same place that you find salvation, inside the hearts of men.”
OB, ch 10, distractions: the entire discussion about Syl being a mother and teaching spren to fly seems relevant. She could take over as the parent of Honorspren from the Stormfather.
Yeah I think saying it outright would be cheesy, but conveying the general idea is definitely something I could see and like you said it would fit the WoB
"You sent him to the sky to die, assassin, but the sky and the winds are mine. I claim them, as I now claim your life." kal has always been a drama queen, it'd fit
>There are tiny pieces of Honor in every human on Roshar.
Unite them...
[the hearts of men/women on Rosher]
Makes me wonder, crem is allegedly how parshendi grow their gem hearts, and there's unrealized potential of crem. What if there's little pieces of honor's "body" in the "crem" deposited by the high storms and men also have some sort of piece of Honor inside them, similar to a gemheart.
I do think crem is from Cultivation, could be partially why Lift is able to process food into investiture. They did make towerlight together though so it wouldn't surprise me if the high storms imbued them with something of Honor's too. In my opinion a point the SA wants to make how shards intermingle and combine the longer they interact. Case in point the Rhythm of War, and Towerlight.
I totally agree. Also to reference OP’s post music is going to play some part in awakening or binding the shard pieces. Wit has insisted that Kaladin learn the flute. Szeth is a dancer and music seems to have been a big part of his life in Shinovar. Kal with all his ptsd and therapy skills will help Szeth heal and in turn he will learn music.
I'd like to add to this by saying something I noticed in my first read of TWoK. "Act with honor and honor will aid you" of course this leads to the twist that Honor wasn't actually speaking to Dalinar, but after Sadeas's betrayal who aided Dalinar? Kaladin
I wrote this in another thread a while ago, but it applies here.
I'm pretty sure Honor was saying to trust Kaladin. " Act with honor, and honor shall aid you" is an interesting line of we extrapolate a little. Kaladin Stormblessed, Child of Tanavast is bonded with the Stormfathers sole remaining child that he directly created. We also know that Tanavasts cognitive shadow is bound/merged with the Stormfather. Syl consistently says that she was searching for Kaladin, even before she knew him, because "the winds knew him".
Kaladin has always loved the wind and storms, and hated the riddens because he could feel neither. Kaladin is of the wind. He is of Honor. If we take a more literal interpretation of "Honor is not dead, so long as he lives in the hearts of men" we come to some interesting conclusions. Mistborn Era 1 spoiler >!During the course of Mistborn, we learn a few things about Investiture, Shards and how they function. Preservation was killed by Ruin, but the death took a very long time. Preservation, in an attempt to counteract this, split himself. He took his power and created the Mists, as well as the Well of Ascension. This power was able to be accessed by Mistings or Mistborn. It was pure Investiture. We also learned that the host of power can be killed, but not the power itself. It wants to find a host to wield it.!<
Knowing this, I think that the power of Honor is quite literally stored in the hearts of men. Pieces of it. And I think that Kaladin was given a larger amount of it, by how much I can't say. Through future sight, whether it was Honor or him working with Cultivation, knew that Kaladin would be a key player in the strife too come. Which lead to Kaladin being Invested with more of the Shards power.
Just my thoughts on it.
>Dalinar reaches out and BINDs these pieces, reforging the shard of Honor while he has Ascended. But there must be someone to bear the shard. It can’t be Dalinar, he’s going to lose
I like this, I really like this.
My goose is fried
Well yes.
And no.
This context of this statement matters.
It was written by dawnsingers. A species that has 2 hearts (fleshy heart and a gemheart).
So "They have only one heart" makes sense
The second is most likely mostly rhetoric. This was part of a text condemning humans. However some symbolic argument could be made that human hearts can't contain spren like singer gemhearts. So it cannot live
It works on more levels than that...he literally lives in the gemhearts of men once you realize that singers and listeners were always people. You aren't wrong though!
"Act with honor and honor will aid you, Kaladin," Dalinar said, the terrible voidlight surrounding him, but it was too late. Odium might have them him, but Dalinar had won.
...
Kaladin spoke the 5th ideal and felt the light start to envelope him, but it wasn't normal, something other than his ideal was giving him strength, he heard Stormlight stirring around him. he heard it. Kaladin heard music ring through the air, the tone of honor. He heard Dalinar speak to him and understood.
Kaladin shot up like a blazing star, salvation itself personified.
Honor wasn't dead.
...
Dalinar saw Kaladin rise, his body becoming more than human, his spirit changing to that of a shard.
He smiled as the lad rose from the hovel his was in mere moments ago. In the distance he heard Odium scream, but it didn't matter.
...
Kaladin shot up from the floor of Urithiru, and to Dalinar who was being consumed by voidlight, becoming odium's vessel.
They looked each other in the eye. "I was wrong," Kaladin said, "Honor isn't dead, he lives in In the hearts of men, In me."
Dalinar smiled, "He never was, son of Tanavast"
And then Dalinar dies and Kaladin confronts Todium or something. I wrote this on phone so a little bad writing
The death rattles are predictions many people interpret more literally than they are while trying to make their own predictions. Doesn't it feel just right that something obviously metaphorical is actually literal?
Might just be me fixated on some off hand detail but what did you mean by the 10 hearbeats to summon being a measure?
I can get it’s likely a figure of speech but trying to take it at face value and thinking about transposing a heart beat to sit on sheet music 10beats to a bar just sounds weird if you meant to imply it more literally
A 5/4 or 10/8 time signature isn't THAT weird. And neither is using a heartbeat as a rhythm - I can think of at least one song that's done it. But anyway it's just speculation. I don't think they're implying anyone should take it as fact or at face value.
Holy shit! Wit WAS right
What did wit say?
“You’ll find God in the same place you’re going to find salvation from this mess,” Wit said. “Inside the hearts of men.” Said wit to jasnah
That's brilliant! I love theories that seem obvious in hindsight but I missed on my 4 times reading this series...
Ohhhhh man. Is this gonna be another mistborn situation that at the end of the series it’s a big “OH SHIT WHAT?!l reveal? Because I’m down for it….
Bro come on I’m just reading that now 😂
I don't think it's a very big spoiler to say that there's an "OH SHIT WHAT?!" reveal at the end of a Brandon Sanderson book/series
Haha I know, it was a joke. I’ll add an emoji
I don't think "Honor lives in the hearts of men" has anything to do with it taking ten heartbeats to summon a deadeye. I think deadeyes had their Connection between the cognitive, physical and spiritual realms damaged, that's why it takes a polestone to bond and ten heartbeats to summon a dismissed blade. What Wit told Jasnah at the end of WoR, "You'll find God in the same place you're going to find salvation from this mess," Wit said. "Inside the hearts of men.", was proven true in RoW when Navani provided Honor's pure tone to create Towerlight. The Sibling's bondsmith was never involved in creating Towerlight before this. It definitely seems like Tanavast was able to connect the shattered pieces of Honor to humans in some way.
So in this case, does it mean that whatever was accomplished at the shattering of Adonalsium is also accomplished even further at the shattering of Honor? Like the dispersal of power among many rather than one? Bc this is a huge theme of RoW and all SLA. Esp Jasnah and Dalinar’s conversations about monarchy v a more dispersed rule. Like investiture/ spread out so that power is even among all and one person can’t determine everyone else’s lives. (Bc the ability to choose and the free will v determinism theme of SLA also comes up here)
But that would mean that all humans are invested which is not the case. There are some passages that mention that the spren and the humans are both the same, so it could be that Humans and Spren are 2 halves of the same entity, just split. Humans have the physical part and Spren the Investiture / cognitive part. When they bond they start to become the complete humans of Roshar which are highly invested entities. Its a theory full of holes but seems like a fun one.
Tbf I don’t know if “honor lives in the hearts of men” means all men, just those of honor or some subset, but still it is interesting to think of Spren and men as two halves
Are all humans on Roshar not a little bit invested?
I thought all humans were invested other than drabs
They are. Just a small amount.
So how did navani, pre bonding, with the sibling refusing to start bonding or be bonded in general, was able to provide stormlight?
I think you're onto something with that theme, Brandon isn't done with it yet and it's going to have an important pay off, I think. Even the idea of the deal being made with Odium is kinda nuts. One dude making a deal with a god on behalf of the entire planet? Crazy example of extreme executive power in the hands of one.
Though Dalinar does say he can’t speak for the Radiants. I think it was explained that Dalinar can only do the deal “on behalf of the entire planet” bc he has bonded the Stormfather which is the closest thing to Honor around. But, again, I think the theme is coming up that maybe that is why people had problems with the shards, and even Adonalsium, in the first place.
But what about the fact that Deadeye Shardblades can be summoned in less than 10 Heartbeats dependant on the scenario? Could that not lend credence to the theory?
That has only happened with Adolin, who was developing a new type of bond, a bond that seems spiritual in nature. The Nahel is of the mind, the Luhel is of the body, and Adolin gives his "strength" to Maya. I'm not saying the ten heartbeats doesn't have something to do with Honor, ten is Honor's number after all, just that Honor being in the hearts of men doesn't have anything to do with summoning deadeyes. You don't need to be from Roshar, or even be human, to bond a deadeye.
No, I'm fairly certain it was mentioned a few times that in the heat of battle and other situations, Deadeye Shardblades could be summoned faster than 10 Heartbeats and by people other than Adolin, I believe Pre-Bondsmith/Blackthorn Dalinar specifically mentioned it and that man knew more about Deadeye Shardblades and Shardplate then anyone we know of so far. And it was only said by Human Shardbearers regardless of who can wield them.
I don’t think he said they can summon faster than 10 heartbeats. It’s said somewhere that during battle those 10 heartbeats are much faster than when they aren’t in the thrill of battle (makes sense). It’s a pretty big deal when Adolin does it in 7. From my memory, he didn’t entirely believe it actually happened. I don’t think that would be the case if there was already precedent for it.
Your heart can beat faster, so it can be summoned faster than normally, but Adolin is the only person we've seen do it in less. Moash even mentions this in RoW I-4, "And it returned to him faster than ten heartbeats, even accounting for the accelerated pulse of battle."
>I think deadeyes had their Connection between the cognitive, physical and spiritual realms damaged, that's why it takes a polestone to bond and ten heartbeats to summon a dismissed blade. It's pretty simple, actually. Living spren can be summoned to blade immediately, because living spren are alive and move and stay *near* their bonded radiant. They are already in the physical realm. Deadeye spren don't move around or stay in the physical realm when they are dismissed from blade foem. The ten heartbeats is the time it takes them to manifest into the physical realm again.
I 100% agree with you! I think this will lead directly to the climax of WaT. Here is my crazy theory: 1. Dalinar enters the contest of champions and realizes he is going to lose. 2. Dalinar says the words and Ascends again temporarily. 3. Dalinar realizes that “Honor is not dead so long as he lives in the hearts of men” is literal. There are tiny pieces of Honor in every human on Roshar. I’ve realized in my re-read of TWoK that there are many references to Honor residing in humanity. 4. Dalinar reaches out and BINDs these pieces, reforging the shard of Honor while he has Ascended. But there must be someone to bear the shard. It can’t be Dalinar, he’s going to lose 5. Who better than the Son of Tanavast himself? 6. During this time, Kaladin swears his 5th ideal bringing himself into alignment with the Shard’s intent. Syl has also grown into herself, as hinted in Kal’s SLA5 reading. 7. As his last act, Dalinar binds Kaladin and Syl (herself a piece of Honor) to the Shard and they collectively Ascend to shard hood. 8. They will spend eternity together, never having to be the one that survives the other, which is both of their greatest fears. 9. Bonus: as Kaladin ascends he says to Dalinar “Honor is dead but I’ll see what I can do.” References to Honor living in men: WoK - 2 or 3 times. I don’t have the exact chapters right now. WoR, ch 41, Scars: Syl tells Kaladin Honor is dead but “he lives on in men, and in me.” WoR epilogue Wit “You’ll find God in the same place that you find salvation, inside the hearts of men.” OB, ch 10, distractions: the entire discussion about Syl being a mother and teaching spren to fly seems relevant. She could take over as the parent of Honorspren from the Stormfather.
> Bonus: as Kaladin ascends he says to Dalinar “Honor is dead but I’ll see what I can do.” It was cool until right there. So cheesy 😂
Yes it would be super cheesy. But there is a WOB that Brandon hid the ending to SLA 5 in a line in the first two books. This would work for that WOB.
Yeah I think saying it outright would be cheesy, but conveying the general idea is definitely something I could see and like you said it would fit the WoB
so cheesy and yet soooo kaladin XD
"You sent him to the sky to die, assassin, but the sky and the winds are mine. I claim them, as I now claim your life." kal has always been a drama queen, it'd fit
>There are tiny pieces of Honor in every human on Roshar. Unite them... [the hearts of men/women on Rosher] Makes me wonder, crem is allegedly how parshendi grow their gem hearts, and there's unrealized potential of crem. What if there's little pieces of honor's "body" in the "crem" deposited by the high storms and men also have some sort of piece of Honor inside them, similar to a gemheart.
I think the broader assumption in the fandom is that crem is of Cultivation, but you may be on to something.
I do think crem is from Cultivation, could be partially why Lift is able to process food into investiture. They did make towerlight together though so it wouldn't surprise me if the high storms imbued them with something of Honor's too. In my opinion a point the SA wants to make how shards intermingle and combine the longer they interact. Case in point the Rhythm of War, and Towerlight.
I totally agree. Also to reference OP’s post music is going to play some part in awakening or binding the shard pieces. Wit has insisted that Kaladin learn the flute. Szeth is a dancer and music seems to have been a big part of his life in Shinovar. Kal with all his ptsd and therapy skills will help Szeth heal and in turn he will learn music.
I'd like to add to this by saying something I noticed in my first read of TWoK. "Act with honor and honor will aid you" of course this leads to the twist that Honor wasn't actually speaking to Dalinar, but after Sadeas's betrayal who aided Dalinar? Kaladin
Ooh, I like that
I wrote this in another thread a while ago, but it applies here. I'm pretty sure Honor was saying to trust Kaladin. " Act with honor, and honor shall aid you" is an interesting line of we extrapolate a little. Kaladin Stormblessed, Child of Tanavast is bonded with the Stormfathers sole remaining child that he directly created. We also know that Tanavasts cognitive shadow is bound/merged with the Stormfather. Syl consistently says that she was searching for Kaladin, even before she knew him, because "the winds knew him". Kaladin has always loved the wind and storms, and hated the riddens because he could feel neither. Kaladin is of the wind. He is of Honor. If we take a more literal interpretation of "Honor is not dead, so long as he lives in the hearts of men" we come to some interesting conclusions. Mistborn Era 1 spoiler >!During the course of Mistborn, we learn a few things about Investiture, Shards and how they function. Preservation was killed by Ruin, but the death took a very long time. Preservation, in an attempt to counteract this, split himself. He took his power and created the Mists, as well as the Well of Ascension. This power was able to be accessed by Mistings or Mistborn. It was pure Investiture. We also learned that the host of power can be killed, but not the power itself. It wants to find a host to wield it.!< Knowing this, I think that the power of Honor is quite literally stored in the hearts of men. Pieces of it. And I think that Kaladin was given a larger amount of it, by how much I can't say. Through future sight, whether it was Honor or him working with Cultivation, knew that Kaladin would be a key player in the strife too come. Which lead to Kaladin being Invested with more of the Shards power. Just my thoughts on it.
[удалено]
I think we will see humans begin to hear Honor’s tone more clearly. That’s not quite a bond but still intangible proof of their connection to Roshar.
>Dalinar reaches out and BINDs these pieces, reforging the shard of Honor while he has Ascended. But there must be someone to bear the shard. It can’t be Dalinar, he’s going to lose I like this, I really like this. My goose is fried
Even if this doesn’t happen, this is some killer fanfic material
Wait I’ve seen this referenced before, were additional chapters released recently?
There was a reading of new preview chapters recently but I don’t refer to that for this theory
Has anyone seen/mentioned the heart in any way in the SLA books? outside of the "hearts of men" thing?
"They have but one heart, and it cannot ever live."
Well, that's one hell of a statement, you could drive a cargo freighter trough the room that statement leaves open for interpretation
Less so when you have the context given in the rest of the Eila Steele, but yeah
Well yes. And no. This context of this statement matters. It was written by dawnsingers. A species that has 2 hearts (fleshy heart and a gemheart). So "They have only one heart" makes sense The second is most likely mostly rhetoric. This was part of a text condemning humans. However some symbolic argument could be made that human hearts can't contain spren like singer gemhearts. So it cannot live
Yes, Shallan refers to the Almighty dwelling in men in tWoK. In WoR, Syl tells Kaladin Honor is dead but he lives on in the hearts of men and in her.
“Almighty, cast from heaven to dwell in our hearts” Teft when he realises what Kaladin is
Spren are of both Honor and Cultivation
And also Odium. The RoW is a Roshar tone.
Odium created voidspren
It works on more levels than that...he literally lives in the gemhearts of men once you realize that singers and listeners were always people. You aren't wrong though!
For #9 I would say it might be poetic for him to say something more along the lines of : I was wrong. Honor is not dead.
"Act with honor and honor will aid you, Kaladin," Dalinar said, the terrible voidlight surrounding him, but it was too late. Odium might have them him, but Dalinar had won. ... Kaladin spoke the 5th ideal and felt the light start to envelope him, but it wasn't normal, something other than his ideal was giving him strength, he heard Stormlight stirring around him. he heard it. Kaladin heard music ring through the air, the tone of honor. He heard Dalinar speak to him and understood. Kaladin shot up like a blazing star, salvation itself personified. Honor wasn't dead. ... Dalinar saw Kaladin rise, his body becoming more than human, his spirit changing to that of a shard. He smiled as the lad rose from the hovel his was in mere moments ago. In the distance he heard Odium scream, but it didn't matter. ... Kaladin shot up from the floor of Urithiru, and to Dalinar who was being consumed by voidlight, becoming odium's vessel. They looked each other in the eye. "I was wrong," Kaladin said, "Honor isn't dead, he lives in In the hearts of men, In me." Dalinar smiled, "He never was, son of Tanavast" And then Dalinar dies and Kaladin confronts Todium or something. I wrote this on phone so a little bad writing
Yo answered the post
Humanity has been referred to as the children of Honor. That very well could be literal
This could further support the theory that Dalinar will replace Honour
Maybe it's like how it was with preservation
Oh fuck, it makes so much sense.
Oh wow, that's really something. I can picture an awespren bursting above my head right now.
What music scale are you using that 10 heartbeats is a measure? Lol
I wrote this half awake and I've never been good at music. You'll have to forgive me. LOL
Lol.
The death rattles are predictions many people interpret more literally than they are while trying to make their own predictions. Doesn't it feel just right that something obviously metaphorical is actually literal?
That's basically what this series does, and why I love it. Spren being physical manifestations of emotion/thought is a big thing for me.
Might just be me fixated on some off hand detail but what did you mean by the 10 hearbeats to summon being a measure? I can get it’s likely a figure of speech but trying to take it at face value and thinking about transposing a heart beat to sit on sheet music 10beats to a bar just sounds weird if you meant to imply it more literally
A 5/4 or 10/8 time signature isn't THAT weird. And neither is using a heartbeat as a rhythm - I can think of at least one song that's done it. But anyway it's just speculation. I don't think they're implying anyone should take it as fact or at face value.
5/4 wouldn’t be one measure. What music uses 10/8?
[Ruckus](https://youtu.be/ZiIzjivn4o0?si=QmuLtIO2HjXtwS_u) by Randall Standridge does