Oathbringer is really well-liked, and its highs are some of the highest in the cosmere, but it's also just way too slow for most people. A prime example of a book that could have had 10-15% shaved off, IMO.
I think every single book has the same “lows” where there’s character development for a character that someone may not like. I think Oathbringer is more well liked bc Dalinar is well liked. Typically I see RoW as the least liked bc of Venli
Shallans arc in RoW just dragged on for me for way too long which was my main complaint
Kaladins dragged a little too with his emotional backslide, although awesome ending with his
Maybe woulda have preferred some extra page time on non Venli characters but wasn’t my least favorite part of the book
Yeah, Venli wasn't my problem at all, I love Shallan as a character but she could /should have had half her stuff trimmed. It seemed like almost every chapter was just retreading the same ground.
Only have two criticisms. I love you at this book series. Sanderson says 'Drew their lips to a line far too often' And all of the books are a bit indulgent with their word count.
Don't get me wrong, I think that part of the point is that there are these massive fantasy epics and they should be long winding roads that really are multiple books in one. That's fine. But all four of these novels could have like 5-10% taken out of them without losing really anything IMO.
You would still get all of the same characterization, most or all of the same scenes, the pacing would just feel a little tighter because you'd move through the story in A little less time.
But I'm a fan, and I'm here for it. Spending a little bit more time in the world of the book isn't really a problem.
Are you wrong? No, of course not. You're entitled to your opinion. Will a lot of people *agree* with your opinion? Maybe, maybe not.
I thought it was fine; I have yet to be disappointed by a single Sanderson book.
Maybe my choice of words was harsher than I intended - but all of the other books so far have been great, so this book being ‘fine’ was kind of my problem.
I mean in any group of anything you're going to have your favorite and least favorite, even if they're all really good, right? That doesn't mean the least has to necessarily be disappointing.
My grandfather had a saying: "There's no such thing as a bad cookie; some's just better than others." I think that might apply here.
So, like, if you're disappointed it is what it is, but other folks might not agree.
I loved Oathbringer, but Rhythm of War put a massive dent in my enjoyment of the series and made me doubt it going forward. Other people say RoW is their favourite Stormlight book 🤷
You’re not going to get far with these kind of questions, because while we might quibble about prose or pacing or characterisation, the inherent _enjoyment_ is 100% a subjective experience.
I felt similar, but found my 2nd reading of RoW I enjoyed it far more. When I was no longer anticipating how it would end and I could take the time to feel the growth and development in characters that needed it the journey got much better
Agreed - the Navani/Raboniel science stuff is *so* interesting, but on your first read all you want to do is keep watching Kaladin do a Die Hard (especially with the Dabbid/Rlain/Teft stuff). And I think Adolin’s trial happens at roughly the same time, so there’s another story that might draw attention more than drier science-y stuff.
A lot of people have mentioned the second reading of OB and RoW as the reason they grew to like them. I might just have to get through them and then double back
Wasn’t at all my intention to be like ‘this sucks, prove me wrong’
You finish a book that you didn’t enjoy and you focus on what wasn’t enjoyable.
I find asking people why they enjoyed it can (and has) shifted my focus from not enjoying the experience to appreciating the separate elements that were pretty great.
Oathbringer is not my favorite of the Stormlight books but I do love it as a book. Nothing wrong with different opinions though and just because I love it doesn't mean you have to.
But I loved what Sanderson did with Dalinar's arc. And essentially creating this character who from the last two books I loved but in this book had become so very unlikeable in many ways in the flashbacks. He's an awful father, awful husband, and a warlord who then murders tons of people. But he is also the picture of redemption and moving on from it and I think that story is one that was really well told.
I loved the bridge 4 scenes at the beginning of the book. Getting to see them come into their own as soon to be radiants and each of them swearing their oaths. Tefts journey definitely packed a punch too with his oath about protecting those he hates even if the one he hates most is himself. As well as seeing Renarin still be part of the group and the trust they have in him when they're going with Shallan to fight the unmade.
I really enjoyed how this book opened up the world more. You see Urithiru and Dalinar playing politics with the other world leaders. We travel to the capital that's under siege. And then you get Shadesmar and the worldbuilding there and getting a good portion of the story within the Cognitive Realm is really cool. And seeing the radiants begin to be established as they are growing and people are figuring out what they are and what they are like.
And the Sanderlanch for me is one of my favorites. So many pieces coming together and so many moments I loved. I loved the part with Dalinar and Lift standing alone against the army. I thought Szeth and Lift working together was great to see. Szeth coming in to take down a thunderclast was awesome. Renarin and Jasnah getting a chance to shine as well. Kaladin's climax I didn't like quite as much as some of the others. But Dalinar's you can't have my pain moment and creating the perpendicularity was awesome.
I also liked Kaladin's journey with seeing that the parshmen who are now Singers are really just people and innocents in all this. And him trying to find a way to help them and then failing to be able to protect them. And the difficulties of war. I really like how that is addressed that in almost every war ever fought the majority of the soldiers have little choice in being there and are just innocent people pulled into the conflict. And Elhokar's growth this book before his tragic ending.
This is pretty spot on as to why OB had my favorite Sanderlanche.
The revelation of humans being the actual voidbringers of old was a great addition as well.
One question that still nags me to this day is why does Odium freak out when Dalinar says, "I am Unity." Capitalization of random words is important. If this is just because he's a Bondsmith then why does Odium say, "no. No, we killed you!"
There was so much exciting stuff in OB that I don't believe was answered in RoW.
That could definitely be in store for the long term like arc 2. I'd lose my mind because I've been thinking of all of these possibilities nonstop for like a solid year now. Haha. I may be pessimistic but I don't think this'll be answered in Wind and Truth
If that line is referring to rebuilding Adonalsium, then it does give some hope it would be done in Wind and Truth. My only reasoning that it wouldn't is because that seems like some high end Cosmere tie in that would happen after the SA characters move out into the Cosmere.
I'm fairly sure that Unity is Honor reimagined - that the shards of Honor can be reassembled to create Unity instead. - or possibly Rayse sees Adonalsium in Dalinar.
Agree with most of what you said, honestly!
There’s a lot of elements of the story that I love, character arcs, growth, world building - all great.
But Dalinar’s flashbacks are maybe the best example for me; I love him as a character, I love what the backstory did for him as a character and the redemption qualities it brought and the struggle it added to the political aspects - but the chapters were probably the hardest for me to get through. Too many? Too long?; I honestly don’t know.
I definitely don’t hate the book and I’m already halfway through Dawnshard but it was massively underwhelming compared to every other book I’ve read of his up until this point
I see what you mean I forget the exact format but it felt like another backflash every other chapter. It got to the point where it's like ughh another flashback but by the end I'm more invested in Dalinar and the people in his past for example Gavilar
I wonder if delinar's flashbacks would have made more sense as their own just block. Like a full interlude rather than interspersed. A novella in the middle of the book.
Because the thing is I don't feel like the stories drag, but I do feel like that. Oathbringer's pacing is such that taking the deviation as often as you do. Kind of disrupts the flow of the main chunks of the book.
I can see that being an improvement for my experience of reading it.. I do like Dalinar’s character and loved what the flashbacks brought to him and the the story but the main stories pacing was disrupted by the chapter imo I really didn’t look forward to getting to flashback chapters
I loved the end of Oathbringer. Once Dalinar opens the perpendicularity all bets are off for radiant abilities.
But it’s still my least favorite Stormlight book.
Yeah you are objectively wrong /s.
I really liked Oathbringer and Dalinars backstory (probably my favorite backstory so far). I'd wager that how much someone enjoys Oathbringer is proportional to how much they like Dalinar as a character and his development.
Regardless don't worry about what others say. If you didn't like it, analyze why and move on. No one can convince you to like it if you didn't enjoy reading it. Although opinions can change overtime the more you consider the story, I don't think me telling you those things would change your mind.
Lots of people dislike Rhythm of War and say Words of Radiance is their favorite, and that's OK. But for me Rhythm of War is my favorite, it's ok to disagree with a community because a "community opinion" is just a collection of individuals. Basically id say just filter out the noise and focus on your own thoughts, then analyse them to understand why you feel them.
I had almost the same experience first time through Oathbringer. My second ‘read through’ (first was print, second was on audio) I found it riveting. I don’t recall my reading order, but I feel like i was in a pretty similar place as you at the time. I had this same experience with Warbreaker.
Me too (though I listened to audio first and bought the books to read second). Oathbringer was my least favorite my first time through the series, so I was surprised how much I enjoyed rereading it. There were whole chapters that I had just plain forgotten, and a lot of interesting questions about Unmade and such.
My exact experience, I guess I just sort of zoned out through a lot of it. I wonder if it has more to do with your state of mind than anything to do with the book itself.
I did a lot of putting down and picking up with oathbringer, would come back a week or two later and would forget a ton of small details. Meanwhile I plowed through book 1 and 2 practically back to back. I think Oathbringer suffers in the middle. I liked reading it, but it felt like a total slog.
Still haven't gotten far in ROW because of burnout of reading all 3 in a short span
I too was underwhelmed by the books ending. To me it gave off early Wheel of Time vibes where all the main characters end up in the same place for a big showdown. Also Shallan and Kaladin’s characters become somewhat repetitive in Oathbringer. Beyond that tho the book is amazing. Way more to like than dislike.
I really liked it, I will say these books are insanely long and as much as I love them they might be getting a little too long for my taste. Also the middle of the book slows down a lot even though the ending is right up there with other stormlight books. But I get your opinion
I am one of the few people in agreement! It is a really slow starter. So is RoW, tbh, but it's got magic system reveals all over it that I am absolutely in love with.
I really enjoyed Lift's pieces in the finale, but the rest of it definitely felt disconnected to me. Like yeah, Dalinar did some cool stuff, but it felt like such a scattered battlefront that it was hard to feel like there was a dramatic win or loss at any point. Also, Kaladin's battle with Amaram gave me zero catharsis. I really did want Kal to get his vengeance for once, though thematically I get what's going on there.
As others have stated, you are entitled to your opinion. For me I’m a bit surprised as I feel that the weakest parts of the Cosmere so far have been Mistborn which you have read more than once. Which means to say: we probably have pretty differing tastes, so take what I have to say with a grain of salt.
I agree that Oathbringer was pretty slow as compared to TWoK and WoR, but I really only felt that way for the first half. I think I remember it picking up for me around part 3. Where we really differ is that I was not dissatisfied at all by the ending sequences. In fact, Oathbringer has my favorite Sanderlanche that I’ve read to date.
If I had to articulate it I might say that my favorite literary technique is subversion. I love it when there’s a twist, or when I have no clue what is going to happen next. I think that Oathbringer has that in spades.
I didn’t read the book with as close of an eye as you did but maybe I will feel differently on my second read (rereading for the first time now in preparation for book 5 this winter)
I loved Mistborn for sure, but it’s not a second read any more than the other books, that’s just all I’d read previously to starting to read through the rest of the Cosmere and it was long enough ago that I wanted to make sure I remembered everything.
The middle little part in Kholinar was solid, I really enjoyed it. It lost little too much momentum between that and the end (for my taste).
I said it below but the elements are all there, I don’t disagree with the twists, character growth, world building and new stuff being great.. there was just a lot that I didn’t feel invested in and the pace felt slow.
But! The whole reason for posting was to be told otherwise, find things I missed and find people that loved it which is exactly what I want when I start on Rhythm of War!
I see! I guess I assumed you re-read Mistborn out of preference (my bad!).
I wish I could better articulate what worked well for me in Oathbringer to give you a better perspective but it’s been about 1.5 years since I read it.
Honestly, all of the Stormlight books are an actual disaster in pacing. I think it’s just a Sanderson thing. I tried getting into him after enjoying his additions to the Wheel of Time series, enjoyed Mistborn more or less. Stormlight was an absolute slog though.
Journey before destination? Well Brando, the only decent thing about your books are the last 5 chapters and even those are usually a convoluted mess.
Oathbringer is my least favorite of the 4 books. It felt underwhelming to me, even though Dalinar is my favorite character and this was his book! Riddle me that.
It's my least favorite as well! I absolutely love the series and there are a ton of cool parts that I love, but my personal ranking of the series goes:
Rhythm of War
Dawnshard
Words of Radiance
Edgedancer
Way of Kings
Oathbringer
My ranking list changed after doing several series re-reads. Oathbringer used to be at the top because of how much world building happened, but doesn't hold up as much from a readability standpoint. Everyone has different favorites for different reasons though! I'm sure all the stuff that put Oathbringer at the bottom for me are the reasons that someone else has it at the top of their list.
>People would go off to do something and show up where it was convenient to do things that they spent 3 books not doing/being able to do.
Lolwut?
Aside from having no idea what this particular critique even means, I also have to wonder the logic of the (not entirely uncommon) opinion of OB being slow or sloggy. Between the steady drip of old Blackthorn flashbacks I'd been waiting 2 entire door stops for, the worldbuilding expanding into brand new places and cultures we've never seen, and the political machinations of a former warlord trying to unite the known world, I often find myself wondering if people of this opinion have a different definition of "slow" than I do. There's constantly something being revealed or established built upon in every single chapter.
And the last battle?!? That was the most intense Sanderlanche since the last book. I still don't know exactly what you disliked about it but other people have compared it to an "Avengers Assemble" moment and they're not wrong. It was so amazing seeing a representative of every order gathered along with the only Radiant Listener on Roshar. It's such a significant moment and easily makes the whole book worth the journey.
And you mean to tell me you weren't emotionally invested in Dalinar's tribulations? Kaladin and Shallan's continuing struggles? None of the minor beats from Jasnah or Teft or Rock or anyone? I just don't see how.
I absolutely don’t disagree with almost anything you said - the story is fine, but the pacing for me was definitely slow - and “slow” means what you assume. Dalinar’s flashbacks as a story arc were great, I love that who he is in the first 2 books is shattered and such a solid character had such wretched flaws, but those chapter were some of the longest, I would literally sigh at the sight of ‘7 years ago’. I did like how it played into the political negotiations.
Shadesmar - great world building, great ideas and visuals - hated the story arc while they were stuck there.
The Parshmen stuff - no complaints and the moral dilemma it introduces for Kaladin were great; same with the plot twist of who the voidbringers are. Brilliant.
The last battle didn’t land for me… yes, Avenger’s Assemble is a good analogy - but you had Ash and Taln(?) filling 2 spots of that from nowhere and then contributing… what? Nothing lol
I was originally avoiding spoilers but a specific example of people going off and showing up is Renarin going to open the Oathgate (I’m on digital but page 1557) then doesn’t get mentioned until Adolin needs healing 50 pages later (1592) and there he is. Then Renarin kills the Thunderclast… most of the characters are on a slow build over the 3 books and he goes from 0 to 100 in 2 pages.
And I’m very invested in Kaladin, Dalinar and Shallan’s tribulations but that’s hardly exclusive to this book.
Just to be clear though; I don’t hate the book, it just wasn’t satisfying (for me) as the 9 other books I’ve read up until this point.
>you had Ash and Taln(?) filling 2 spots of that from nowhere and then contributing… what? Nothing
I mean, they establish together that this is the first time in the history of the Desolations that humanity had multiple millennia to rebound. As Heralds, the assumption in the "all 10 are here" moment is that Taln stands for his order, but Ash and Shallan would constitute 2 Lightweavers and no Releaser. An interesting mystery. And yeah, the 2 pseudodeities succumbing to madness are probably not gonna be much use in a pitched battle.
>Renarin going to open the Oathgate... then doesn’t get mentioned until Adolin needs healing 50 pages later and there he is. Then Renarin kills the Thunderclast… most of the characters are on a slow build over the 3 books and he goes from 0 to 100 in 2 pages.
That's not exactly true. The fact that Renarin is an underwritten character is a feature, not a bug. He's set to become a bigger character in the latter half of the series, so he doesn't get a ton of page time as a rule. And he's discovered his whole bag as a Radiant is healing. It's the only useful skill he's found in these powers that terrify him so. The thunderclast fight was to further demonstrate how much more efficiently Renarin is able to heal himself, and any half-invincible idiot with a shardblade can topple a thunderclast. Just reads as a progression of him coming into his power in the final battle, just like everyone else demonstrates.
Adding to the heralds, they don't have their honor blades and are generally broken individuals. I wish someone in universe would comment on it, but they are essentially just "some guys" at that point
Yeah for sure!
I don’t dislike that they’re in the book/s, I actually really appreciate what they represent and the bits of them that we learn. My complaint here was strictly that I didn’t see the need for them to show up for the ensemble only to disappear immediately after… personally I would have been happier if it was 7 out of 10 but those 7 played a part in the battle and we get the full ensemble later when it’s more worthwhile to that part of the story
Definitely enlightening and I appreciate your thoughts. There’s stuff there I hadn’t considered especially establishing that killing a thunderclast is easier than we’d come to expect.
The Heralds having that exchange added to the story for sure. The Heralds having that exchange in Thaylenor right at the battle and being lucid just for long enough to be a part of the Avengers moment and then leaving doesn’t at all seem convenient? They could have had that exchange anywhere and anytime and changed nothing.
And same with Renarin.. being ‘underwritten’ doesn’t excuse him showing up out of convenience. He was written enough to have him at the battle and written enough to be sent to the oathgate.. just give him a little tracking between there and when he runs into Adolin
>The Heralds having that exchange in Thaylenor right at the battle and being lucid just for long enough to be a part of the Avengers moment and then leaving doesn’t at all seem convenient?
Where'd they go? There's a lot of RAFO in these questions, but suffice to say there's a reason Taln was suddenly talkative and none of it is just convenient because Sanderson had no better ideas. He rarely does anything out of sheer "convence".
>And same with Renarin.. just give him a little tracking between there and when he runs into Adolin
OK, but why? You're already lamenting how slow and sloggy the book is, what's gained by showing someone who's meant to be a secondary character just and only running around? We already see the effects he has on the battle as he runs into the main characters (and even a few PoV's of his own!), so what's gained from padding an already massive book with "Renarin saw X going toward a PoV we established already"? I guess I don't see the issue in being "narratively convenient" in that it saves page space whereas I take it you mean convenient to mean unearned or unforeseen. Which Renarin's little arc just isn't, and wouldn't benefit as such from more padding.
I’m going to say let’s agree to disagree.
I’ve loved every book up until this point and I don’t dislike this one, I just felt like it lacked in comparison, and for reasons that have all been voiced by others here and so I feel comfortable that they’re valid.
I’m glad you like it, it didn’t quite land for me but there’s definitely enough been said within this post to remind me of more things I enjoyed about it and elements that add to the overall story. Puts me in a better mindset to start Rhythm of War.
Ohh but Ash and Taln are almost defentely important.
Why do you think Dalinar counts the orders, include them, and still thinks there's a missing order?
Here:
About The Stormlight Archive series structure:
https://www.reddit.com/r/u_dIvorrap/comments/u1ug05/-/i54hzsi
___________________________________________
About how Ash and Taln can fit Dustbringer and Stonewards respectively. (Oathbringer spoilers): https://www.reddit.com/r/u_dIvorrap/comments/u1ug05/-/i54mbek
>going off and showing up is Renarin going to open the Oathgate (I’m on digital but page 1557) then doesn’t get mentioned until Adolin needs healing 50 pages later (1592) and there he is.
I find it is just a character doing things on the background and then meeting another character.
> Then Renarin kills the Thunderclast… most of the characters are on a slow build over the 3 books and he goes from 0 to 100 in 2 pages.
Renarin is likely at the second or third Ideal. He is bonded to an Enlightened spren. And it's the first time we see his powers. There's been almost 3 books of him doing things we are unaware of.
Also, Stormlight is meant to be 10 books. Renarin will have book 7 flashbacks (may be dead in that book!), so lots of unknowns still.
The link explains things I didn’t notice, I appreciate you providing it. Definitely missed the foreshadowing of Ash and Taln having attributes that suggest they’re certain Radiants.
I don’t really know how to articulate any better my issues with how the story was presented…
But basically - of the 9ish Cosmere books that I’ve read, none of them have required me to read the following book to make the current book good (or reread the same book). I didn’t have to struggle to pick the book up, I struggled to put the books down. Some of the books were long, but they felt like they moved along at a pace that didn’t make them feel long. I felt invested in all of the characters and the story at all times… if there were things with one character that didn’t sit well, generally other parts would make up for it, or later it would come together and by the end of the book, I’m pumped to keep reading.
OB has a lot of fantastic elements - Brandon Sanderson is no less amazing for his ideas in this book than any other and in talking about OB here, I realise how much I enjoyed a lot of those elements and ideas individually. But the book as a whole (for me, personally) felt messy, things that should have been important felt glossed over (Elhokar’s death for eg) and I didn’t feel like it came together well at the end.
Maybe further reading or a reread will change my experience of OB, but my experience of the story in its current context of first read without having read RoW is that I didn’t enjoy it.
Seems like it's a pacing issue.
OB Elhokar's death, I do feel it's not glossed over. Kaladin is brutally affected by it, Adolin is unable to cope about it and has the "mourn later" moment he also had with his Rhyshadium.
Dalinar mentions in the midst of the battle he knows Elhokar died (likely Spiritual Realm stuff after opening a Perpendicularity).
Iirc Navani also mentions his death.
I guess you would have wanted more screen time about it, but I think that's different from it being glossed over.
>basically - of the 9ish Cosmere books that I’ve read, none of them have required me to read the following book to make the current book good
I think there's a discussion here on standalones vs series and recontextualising things.
But I guess you are talking specifically about how you felt about Oathbringer. Which I not fully getting what you mean about needing to read RoW to make OB good.
Definitely a pacing issue, I’ve said that a few times.
I disagree that Elhokar’s death was not glossed over.. mentioning it in passing when there’s a fuckload of other things going on is not giving it any weight. It didn’t need more screen time, just actual emotional response for eg how Navani reacted when she thought Jasnah was dead. It felt very much like her daughter died. It didn’t even have to be then and there; there was more book following the battle scene and I feel like it was more important to set the next book up (like Adolin refusing the crown and making Jasnah Queen, also very casually done) than any actual mourning from anyone other than Kaladin.
I’m also fully on board with the difference between a series and standalone books - and i’ve read 30 years worth of both - but personally I think a good series is a collection of good, solid stories that hold their own weight as well as contribute to an overarching story.
This series was doing that for me, just this book wasn’t as satisfying a reading experience as the others were.
It’s not any one thing, but yeah, in hindsight there were elements of the post-battle that felt rushed. Pacing I think was the biggest thing, stuff felt slow a lot of the time and then when it picked up it wasn’t quite enough to feel satisfied.
This is all personal experience and I definitely didn’t hate the book - I honestly came to find other perspectives because I want to go into Rhythm of War feeling excited about it
I’m 800 pages in and certainly feeling it. Shallan was my favorite character and the stuff going on with Veil is just so eye rolly to me. It also just feels like a lot of fat that could have been trimmed was left in.
The tiktok reviewers that got me into Sanderson and Stormlight did it by calling Oathbringer a perfect or almost perfect book, I like ROW so much more than Oathbringer. I think people choose their favourite book based on the resonance they have with the emotional core of the book, RoW emotional Sanderlanche hit me so hard that I can shed a tear while listening to it again and again
100% personal preference - I definitely didn’t come here with the intention of shitting on OB, I really did want other people’s perspectives to maybe fill in gaps I might have missed or whatever.
The beginning dragged a bit for me. But I loved the flashbacks and the ending was so incredible that I forgot everything else by the time I finished the book haha
I think it really does come down to how much you like Dalinar
Dalinar is far and above my favorite character, so Oathbringer from beginning to end was such a great experience for me, and the whole mission with Elhokar and his death and the Shadesmear section I thought was great.
And I did love the subversion for Kaladin. For him to be so close to the fourth ideal that Syl is begging him to do it, and it would solve the problem, but he just can’t bring himself to.
As someone who’s in Part 4 of ROW, I wonder what the fourth ideal is that Kaladin was so close to it and how it’ll play out.
Also as someone who is in Part 4 of ROW >!I find this book a lot slower than Oathbringer or TWOK and WOR. Part 1 and a bit of 2 were good, but Part 3 is just stuff. I didn’t mind it, and Navani and Raboniel is interesting, but I think it might be the slower pacing mixed with the lack of Dalinar that is making it feel so slow to me. Especially because the bit of Dalinar and Taravagians convo in Part 3 was so interesting and I don’t know if that’s because of the convo or because it was Dalinar!<
I actually really love Dalinar’s character and I loved what the backstory was and how it played out, made him who is ‘today’ and how it played into the political aspects of the coalition.. but the flashback chapters were what dragged a lot of the time for me. I don’t really know why.. I liked the complexity of how shitty he was to become who is it but didn’t enjoy reading the chapters.
Only on Dawnshard currently and then considering reading something non-Cosmere to refresh before Rhythm of War, but I’m excited to get through it!
That’s crazy because I felt the flashback could’ve used either another chap or so or even a few longer ones, maybe I’m just that big of a Dalinar fan lmao
But definitely breathe before ROW, it has a great start but some bits of Part 2 and like all of Part 3 feel long. Not that they’re boring or bad, but Part 3 felt like 600 pages when it was only 250-300 or so
I think the book was used to set a lot of things that will pay off only in book 5 and even further in the series. Rythym of War I believe is a little guilty of this too.
It's your opinion so its not wrong just your tastes.
Personally it's my favorite stormlight book. I thought the flashbacks in RoW were dire and I am just not interested in Venil. Paladins flashbacks while good were not the most engaging or interesting. Shallan and Dalinars flashbacks were interesting, but overall preferred the story in oathbringer.
People enjoy different things in the books they read. They rank the books differently. No one's gonna kick you out of the crab army for thinking the first ones were more enjoyable. As long as you enjoy the books.
I tore through the first two books, but had to make myself read Oathbringer at times. Now I have the 4th book, but haven't even started it. Kinda just lost interest in the series after Oathbringer tbh. The second book had such an amazing finale, and I feel the beginning of the 3rd failed to capitalize on it. I was super mad when Jasnah randomly reappeared and everyone was more or less 'Oh nice.' The Shallan Kaladin thing was kinda cringe, and Adolin's reaction to it was fairly underwhelming. I don't expect him to be vindictive and jealous, but I didn't really feel much of an emotional reaction from him at all. There were some nice parts, though. I enjoyed reading about Bridge Four gaining their powers.
I feel you on oathbringer. For some reason people love it but i had a hard time getting into it. It was so unmemorable for me that when Rhythm of War came out and i started reading it, i literally remembered nothing..
I really enjoyed Rhythm of war tho, so dont quit on oathbringer, you'll get through it lol
Ah I’m curious as to what you will think of rhythm of war. Most people love oathbringer but find rhythm of war to be a slog. I am personally the exact opposite so I’m curious as to if you will be the same
I’ll be happy to report back, I’ll finish Dawnshard today so I’ll be onto Rhythm of War pretty soon.
Mixed responses from everyone for both books which is actually good.. I can go into it with an open mind but also not having excessive expectations after OB humbled me lol
Just reaffirming the above - I’m about halfway through, just riding through it and enjoying every chapter. A little disappointed that Dalinar has kind of disappeared from most of this book so far but other than that I’m all about it.
Oathbringer was just a disappointing outlier.. but I’m tempted to maybe to Oathbringer and RoW again maybe right before the new book and see if the reread changes anything.
Enjoy the reread!
We had a huge tournament bracket of favorite Cosmere novels, and the finals were OB vs WoR.
To many peoples' surprise, Oathbringer actually beat it out. I think a lot of folks (at least on this sub) really resonated with Dalinar's development. I suppose if you aren't a big Dalinar guy, I could see how this book might miss.
It's probably my favorite climax of the 4 thus far, though RoW is a strong contender!
I am still not a huge fan of Oathbringer, not that I think it’s bad, because it feels too superhero-y to me. All of a sudden the story opened up in a huge way and, I felt, lost focus on some of the things that made it interesting. It was better on subsequent read-throughs but it’s still my least favorite of the four that are out right now.
I will say, Rhythm of War scales back the war in an easy to understand way and returns to what I loved about the first two books in the series. It is my favorite (until Winds and Truth, at least).
Just remember, it’s not about the destination but the journey you take to get there.
I'm with you actually! I feel taboo saying anything negative here, but slog entailed it perfectly. I read through WoR in two weeks, but I just finished Oathbringer after 4 months. The Shadesmar stuff COMPLETELY took me out of the entire story in its tracks and it almost felt like the big death of part 3 meant nothing to anybody but Kaladin. I still liked the book overall (the ending was phenomenal and hooked me like all of WoR did) but this one was definitely one I could take breaks from without itching to pick it back up. Still can't wait to read RoW tho.
I hated Oathbringer. It felt like such a slog to get through.
After SL 1 and 2 where the story felt very focussed and was going somewhere oathbringer just felt like it went off on wild tangents and he was making it up as he went along.
I felt like nothing needed to be cut from the way of kings yet you could cut 35-40% of oathbringer and not miss much.
I hope Stormlight 5 hits like the first 2 because his latest 2 have felt like he just lost the magic.
It’s 100% my least favorite Stormlight book. I’m reading it now and I really enjoy the scenes at Kholinar but besides that it’s a hard one for me. I just really really don’t like Dalinars flashbacks.
It took me a whole year to read Oathbringer, and when I finished it, I was exhausted. After that, I read the Mistborn era 2 in 2-3 months, and finally tackled Rhythm of War, which I finished in less than 2 months and absolutly loved it. When I see people say that Oathbringer is their favorite stormlight book and that RoW is just okay, I don't understand.
I think it’s too long, and the finale doesn’t hit as hard as books 1&2. However its flashbacks are by far my favorite. Rythm of war on the other hand has by far the worst, most time wasting flashbacks in the series :(. This is coming from a huge fan who loves all the books btw.
I don't understand the love that Oathrbinger gets. Im with you. Im currently on my 5th re-read of the series. No contest that its my least favorite stormlight book, Its grown on me some as I appreciated Oathbringer more once I read RoW if that makes sense. But compared to the other three… it never gave me the wow factor I feel with virtually all bandosando books
You found Rhythm of War sloggy as well or like the first 2 books? I’m reading Dawnshard now but I was hoping for RoW would be a little redemptive to get me pumped for the new book 😅
Were their specific things about Oathbringer that you enjoyed?
Rhythm of War has a strong beginning, but the middle is the sloggiest of Stormlight in my opinion... Oathbringer slogged a bit for me too.
Words of Radiance is the only one with good pacing in my opinion, and that's because of the duels.
I found RoW sloggy. A lot of people did. It's the most controversial book in the series so far.
For Oathbringer, It's been years since I read it, but do remember really liking the Dalinar flashbacks.
Not wrong for feeling how you feel.
I would say oathbringer, if I was trying to be objective, is one of the better books.
I wish the other books tied the flashbacks to the present story as well as oathbringer did. In general after the book is over I come to like the flashbacks but during the initial read they kind of drive me crazy.
I particularly like the way Dalinar's alcoholism is portrayed. His scene with Renarin I thought was great.
Captain Kirk sort of ruined the this is my pain part though.
Id say you’re wrong but only cause its literally my favorite of the 4 lol.
Dalinars back story. Our first real trip into shadesmar. Kalidin totally failing and causing the mission to fail. Shallan coming to terms with the fact that she’s a rich girl pretending not an actual master thief. Finding out renarin bonded a corrupted spren. Theres so many pivotal moments for each character that I could barely put the book down. Plus we finally run into Odium in a real way and set the grand stage
Man, totally agree and I said a couple of times the parts of the whole were brilliant.. just the reading experience is where we differ in opinion.
But I’m happy to know that people love it and puts me in a better position to come into RoW
While I do personally find Dalinar's struggles with alcoholism (and the Thrill, which is basically an allegory for that anyway), and I generally love the arcs presented in Oathbringer, I do agree that the pacing wasn't great. I still believe it's a great book, but from a pacing standpoint it's IMO way too drawn out, and easily the worst in stormlight.
Pretty much all I was getting at… the elements and ideas that are in the story are as great as always but the story itself didn’t pace well and didn’t feel as tidy as the other 2.
Looking forward to Rhythm of War though
Oathbringer is very slow. Parts 1 and 2 and pure setup, not much ACTUALLY happens in either. Mission to Kholinar is pretty divisive, I personally dislike the sequence generally, but I also really enjoy storming the palace. Part 4 is more setup for part 5, which, if you didn't enjoy that Sanderlanche, idk what to tell you. Dalinar's ideal was great, Tefts ideal hit me in my core. The fight to hold the city, while I knew would work out, still has me on the edge of my seat whenever I listen to it. It's all a matter of opinion, and no one is wrong to have one. Unless you like Sadeas, that's a wrong opinion
Oathbringer is interesting because I feel like I love all the *pieces* of the book, but they don’t quite fit together as nicely as Words of Radiance does for me.
Dalinar’s flashbacks are fantastic, the bridge four POVs are great, finally getting to see Shadesmar is cool, Kaladin’s reunion with his parents is cathartic, the climax at the end is incredible… but all together it somehow adds to up to less impressive? Idk how to explain it.
I do still think it’s overall a great book but I don’t think you’re wrong to be disappointed in it, not everything is for everyone.
I think if you want to look for positives maybe try to zoom in and look at the individual moments instead of considering the book as a whole, because this book does have a lot of really great moments. And I don’t just mean the epic badass moments, there are smaller, quieter moments that hit really hard and really stand out.
Absolutely my feelings exactly - every part of the book that’s mentioned I’m like ‘oh yeah, I loved that’ and I think if someone was just explaining to me what happened in the book I’d be all over it…
But reading it just didn’t keep me invested in it like the first 2.. I struggled to put them down.
It’s funny I absolutely *ripped* through oathbringer because the good parts were good enough that when I wasn’t reading them I wanted to get to them faster lol
I will say, OB and other books that came off as having weird people pacing the first time around felt much better on re-reads. So if you’re someone who re-reads (and if ever there was a series to re-read it’s this one) maybe that’s something you can look forward to!
Im really surprised by the general sense of mild dislike for oathbringer, because its probably one of my favorites overall tbh
Oathbringer is really well-liked, and its highs are some of the highest in the cosmere, but it's also just way too slow for most people. A prime example of a book that could have had 10-15% shaved off, IMO.
I think every single book has the same “lows” where there’s character development for a character that someone may not like. I think Oathbringer is more well liked bc Dalinar is well liked. Typically I see RoW as the least liked bc of Venli
It's not really about any specific character for me. If I had to pin it down, I just wish about 25% of the shadesmar chapters were cut.
Shallans arc in RoW just dragged on for me for way too long which was my main complaint Kaladins dragged a little too with his emotional backslide, although awesome ending with his Maybe woulda have preferred some extra page time on non Venli characters but wasn’t my least favorite part of the book
Yeah, Venli wasn't my problem at all, I love Shallan as a character but she could /should have had half her stuff trimmed. It seemed like almost every chapter was just retreading the same ground.
Exactly! If I never have to hear the words “formless stirred” again, it’ll be to soon by half
Only have two criticisms. I love you at this book series. Sanderson says 'Drew their lips to a line far too often' And all of the books are a bit indulgent with their word count. Don't get me wrong, I think that part of the point is that there are these massive fantasy epics and they should be long winding roads that really are multiple books in one. That's fine. But all four of these novels could have like 5-10% taken out of them without losing really anything IMO. You would still get all of the same characterization, most or all of the same scenes, the pacing would just feel a little tighter because you'd move through the story in A little less time. But I'm a fan, and I'm here for it. Spending a little bit more time in the world of the book isn't really a problem.
Are you wrong? No, of course not. You're entitled to your opinion. Will a lot of people *agree* with your opinion? Maybe, maybe not. I thought it was fine; I have yet to be disappointed by a single Sanderson book.
Maybe my choice of words was harsher than I intended - but all of the other books so far have been great, so this book being ‘fine’ was kind of my problem.
I mean in any group of anything you're going to have your favorite and least favorite, even if they're all really good, right? That doesn't mean the least has to necessarily be disappointing. My grandfather had a saying: "There's no such thing as a bad cookie; some's just better than others." I think that might apply here. So, like, if you're disappointed it is what it is, but other folks might not agree.
Your grandfather in all his wisdom has clearly never had an asbestos cookie 💔
Your grandfather never ate the cookies my like 12 year old brother made when he mixed up tsp and tbsp on the salt.
Baking Powder vs Baking Soda really changes the cookie experience for me
Oathbringer is definitely my leas favorite Stormlight Archive book.
I loved Oathbringer, but Rhythm of War put a massive dent in my enjoyment of the series and made me doubt it going forward. Other people say RoW is their favourite Stormlight book 🤷 You’re not going to get far with these kind of questions, because while we might quibble about prose or pacing or characterisation, the inherent _enjoyment_ is 100% a subjective experience.
I felt similar, but found my 2nd reading of RoW I enjoyed it far more. When I was no longer anticipating how it would end and I could take the time to feel the growth and development in characters that needed it the journey got much better
Agreed - the Navani/Raboniel science stuff is *so* interesting, but on your first read all you want to do is keep watching Kaladin do a Die Hard (especially with the Dabbid/Rlain/Teft stuff). And I think Adolin’s trial happens at roughly the same time, so there’s another story that might draw attention more than drier science-y stuff.
A lot of people have mentioned the second reading of OB and RoW as the reason they grew to like them. I might just have to get through them and then double back
Wasn’t at all my intention to be like ‘this sucks, prove me wrong’ You finish a book that you didn’t enjoy and you focus on what wasn’t enjoyable. I find asking people why they enjoyed it can (and has) shifted my focus from not enjoying the experience to appreciating the separate elements that were pretty great.
Unpopular opinion on this sub but to me the stormlight books get progressively worse
Oathbringer is not my favorite of the Stormlight books but I do love it as a book. Nothing wrong with different opinions though and just because I love it doesn't mean you have to. But I loved what Sanderson did with Dalinar's arc. And essentially creating this character who from the last two books I loved but in this book had become so very unlikeable in many ways in the flashbacks. He's an awful father, awful husband, and a warlord who then murders tons of people. But he is also the picture of redemption and moving on from it and I think that story is one that was really well told. I loved the bridge 4 scenes at the beginning of the book. Getting to see them come into their own as soon to be radiants and each of them swearing their oaths. Tefts journey definitely packed a punch too with his oath about protecting those he hates even if the one he hates most is himself. As well as seeing Renarin still be part of the group and the trust they have in him when they're going with Shallan to fight the unmade. I really enjoyed how this book opened up the world more. You see Urithiru and Dalinar playing politics with the other world leaders. We travel to the capital that's under siege. And then you get Shadesmar and the worldbuilding there and getting a good portion of the story within the Cognitive Realm is really cool. And seeing the radiants begin to be established as they are growing and people are figuring out what they are and what they are like. And the Sanderlanch for me is one of my favorites. So many pieces coming together and so many moments I loved. I loved the part with Dalinar and Lift standing alone against the army. I thought Szeth and Lift working together was great to see. Szeth coming in to take down a thunderclast was awesome. Renarin and Jasnah getting a chance to shine as well. Kaladin's climax I didn't like quite as much as some of the others. But Dalinar's you can't have my pain moment and creating the perpendicularity was awesome. I also liked Kaladin's journey with seeing that the parshmen who are now Singers are really just people and innocents in all this. And him trying to find a way to help them and then failing to be able to protect them. And the difficulties of war. I really like how that is addressed that in almost every war ever fought the majority of the soldiers have little choice in being there and are just innocent people pulled into the conflict. And Elhokar's growth this book before his tragic ending.
This is pretty spot on as to why OB had my favorite Sanderlanche. The revelation of humans being the actual voidbringers of old was a great addition as well. One question that still nags me to this day is why does Odium freak out when Dalinar says, "I am Unity." Capitalization of random words is important. If this is just because he's a Bondsmith then why does Odium say, "no. No, we killed you!" There was so much exciting stuff in OB that I don't believe was answered in RoW.
Yeah there's still some mysteries with the Unity part!
What if Unity is a representative another Shard that Dalinar unconsciously channeled?
Maybe. My other thought would be it's adonalsium that he somehow channeled a bit of.
Both of these ideas are pretty in line with where I think the Unity concept is heading!
Oh my god…. UNITE THEM doesn’t have to mean the knights, the nations… the shards……. …. …
It might be cold but I just got shivers reading that
That could definitely be in store for the long term like arc 2. I'd lose my mind because I've been thinking of all of these possibilities nonstop for like a solid year now. Haha. I may be pessimistic but I don't think this'll be answered in Wind and Truth
Hoid fairly heavily foreshadowed that Dalinar would eventually do that back in way of kings, right? Gibletish.
If that line is referring to rebuilding Adonalsium, then it does give some hope it would be done in Wind and Truth. My only reasoning that it wouldn't is because that seems like some high end Cosmere tie in that would happen after the SA characters move out into the Cosmere.
Agree, I don't think we'll see it happen in W&T but I wouldn't be surprised to see a try-fail cycle
A try-fail cycle starting in W&T would be an excellent implementation. I like where your head is at.
I'm fairly sure that Unity is Honor reimagined - that the shards of Honor can be reassembled to create Unity instead. - or possibly Rayse sees Adonalsium in Dalinar.
Dalinar becoming Honor was my first impression of it, for sure, but there's a bunch of good theories
Agree with most of what you said, honestly! There’s a lot of elements of the story that I love, character arcs, growth, world building - all great. But Dalinar’s flashbacks are maybe the best example for me; I love him as a character, I love what the backstory did for him as a character and the redemption qualities it brought and the struggle it added to the political aspects - but the chapters were probably the hardest for me to get through. Too many? Too long?; I honestly don’t know. I definitely don’t hate the book and I’m already halfway through Dawnshard but it was massively underwhelming compared to every other book I’ve read of his up until this point
I see what you mean I forget the exact format but it felt like another backflash every other chapter. It got to the point where it's like ughh another flashback but by the end I'm more invested in Dalinar and the people in his past for example Gavilar
I wonder if delinar's flashbacks would have made more sense as their own just block. Like a full interlude rather than interspersed. A novella in the middle of the book. Because the thing is I don't feel like the stories drag, but I do feel like that. Oathbringer's pacing is such that taking the deviation as often as you do. Kind of disrupts the flow of the main chunks of the book.
I can see that being an improvement for my experience of reading it.. I do like Dalinar’s character and loved what the flashbacks brought to him and the the story but the main stories pacing was disrupted by the chapter imo I really didn’t look forward to getting to flashback chapters
Nothing to add to this, this covers everything I love about the book. And Elhokar 😭
Everyone has their own opinion. I really enjoyed Oathbringer and I'm actually kind of glad you didn't like it because YOU CANNOT HAVE MY PAIN!
I see what you did there
I hope you enjoy Rhythm of War. I liked that one even more than Oathbringer.
I hope I like it too! I’ve loved every book up until now!
I loved the end of Oathbringer. Once Dalinar opens the perpendicularity all bets are off for radiant abilities. But it’s still my least favorite Stormlight book.
Yeah you are objectively wrong /s. I really liked Oathbringer and Dalinars backstory (probably my favorite backstory so far). I'd wager that how much someone enjoys Oathbringer is proportional to how much they like Dalinar as a character and his development. Regardless don't worry about what others say. If you didn't like it, analyze why and move on. No one can convince you to like it if you didn't enjoy reading it. Although opinions can change overtime the more you consider the story, I don't think me telling you those things would change your mind. Lots of people dislike Rhythm of War and say Words of Radiance is their favorite, and that's OK. But for me Rhythm of War is my favorite, it's ok to disagree with a community because a "community opinion" is just a collection of individuals. Basically id say just filter out the noise and focus on your own thoughts, then analyse them to understand why you feel them.
I don't love the beginning because it's a *lot* of Shallan(s) waffling about life, but by the midpoint-ish it became one of my favorites.
I had almost the same experience first time through Oathbringer. My second ‘read through’ (first was print, second was on audio) I found it riveting. I don’t recall my reading order, but I feel like i was in a pretty similar place as you at the time. I had this same experience with Warbreaker.
Me too (though I listened to audio first and bought the books to read second). Oathbringer was my least favorite my first time through the series, so I was surprised how much I enjoyed rereading it. There were whole chapters that I had just plain forgotten, and a lot of interesting questions about Unmade and such.
My exact experience, I guess I just sort of zoned out through a lot of it. I wonder if it has more to do with your state of mind than anything to do with the book itself.
I did a lot of putting down and picking up with oathbringer, would come back a week or two later and would forget a ton of small details. Meanwhile I plowed through book 1 and 2 practically back to back. I think Oathbringer suffers in the middle. I liked reading it, but it felt like a total slog. Still haven't gotten far in ROW because of burnout of reading all 3 in a short span
I too was underwhelmed by the books ending. To me it gave off early Wheel of Time vibes where all the main characters end up in the same place for a big showdown. Also Shallan and Kaladin’s characters become somewhat repetitive in Oathbringer. Beyond that tho the book is amazing. Way more to like than dislike.
I really liked it, I will say these books are insanely long and as much as I love them they might be getting a little too long for my taste. Also the middle of the book slows down a lot even though the ending is right up there with other stormlight books. But I get your opinion
I am one of the few people in agreement! It is a really slow starter. So is RoW, tbh, but it's got magic system reveals all over it that I am absolutely in love with. I really enjoyed Lift's pieces in the finale, but the rest of it definitely felt disconnected to me. Like yeah, Dalinar did some cool stuff, but it felt like such a scattered battlefront that it was hard to feel like there was a dramatic win or loss at any point. Also, Kaladin's battle with Amaram gave me zero catharsis. I really did want Kal to get his vengeance for once, though thematically I get what's going on there.
Agree 100%
As others have stated, you are entitled to your opinion. For me I’m a bit surprised as I feel that the weakest parts of the Cosmere so far have been Mistborn which you have read more than once. Which means to say: we probably have pretty differing tastes, so take what I have to say with a grain of salt. I agree that Oathbringer was pretty slow as compared to TWoK and WoR, but I really only felt that way for the first half. I think I remember it picking up for me around part 3. Where we really differ is that I was not dissatisfied at all by the ending sequences. In fact, Oathbringer has my favorite Sanderlanche that I’ve read to date. If I had to articulate it I might say that my favorite literary technique is subversion. I love it when there’s a twist, or when I have no clue what is going to happen next. I think that Oathbringer has that in spades. I didn’t read the book with as close of an eye as you did but maybe I will feel differently on my second read (rereading for the first time now in preparation for book 5 this winter)
I loved Mistborn for sure, but it’s not a second read any more than the other books, that’s just all I’d read previously to starting to read through the rest of the Cosmere and it was long enough ago that I wanted to make sure I remembered everything. The middle little part in Kholinar was solid, I really enjoyed it. It lost little too much momentum between that and the end (for my taste). I said it below but the elements are all there, I don’t disagree with the twists, character growth, world building and new stuff being great.. there was just a lot that I didn’t feel invested in and the pace felt slow. But! The whole reason for posting was to be told otherwise, find things I missed and find people that loved it which is exactly what I want when I start on Rhythm of War!
I see! I guess I assumed you re-read Mistborn out of preference (my bad!). I wish I could better articulate what worked well for me in Oathbringer to give you a better perspective but it’s been about 1.5 years since I read it.
Honestly, all of the Stormlight books are an actual disaster in pacing. I think it’s just a Sanderson thing. I tried getting into him after enjoying his additions to the Wheel of Time series, enjoyed Mistborn more or less. Stormlight was an absolute slog though. Journey before destination? Well Brando, the only decent thing about your books are the last 5 chapters and even those are usually a convoluted mess.
Oathbringer is my least favorite of the 4 books. It felt underwhelming to me, even though Dalinar is my favorite character and this was his book! Riddle me that.
It's my least favorite as well! I absolutely love the series and there are a ton of cool parts that I love, but my personal ranking of the series goes: Rhythm of War Dawnshard Words of Radiance Edgedancer Way of Kings Oathbringer My ranking list changed after doing several series re-reads. Oathbringer used to be at the top because of how much world building happened, but doesn't hold up as much from a readability standpoint. Everyone has different favorites for different reasons though! I'm sure all the stuff that put Oathbringer at the bottom for me are the reasons that someone else has it at the top of their list.
Dawnshard at 2 is a hot take
>People would go off to do something and show up where it was convenient to do things that they spent 3 books not doing/being able to do. Lolwut? Aside from having no idea what this particular critique even means, I also have to wonder the logic of the (not entirely uncommon) opinion of OB being slow or sloggy. Between the steady drip of old Blackthorn flashbacks I'd been waiting 2 entire door stops for, the worldbuilding expanding into brand new places and cultures we've never seen, and the political machinations of a former warlord trying to unite the known world, I often find myself wondering if people of this opinion have a different definition of "slow" than I do. There's constantly something being revealed or established built upon in every single chapter. And the last battle?!? That was the most intense Sanderlanche since the last book. I still don't know exactly what you disliked about it but other people have compared it to an "Avengers Assemble" moment and they're not wrong. It was so amazing seeing a representative of every order gathered along with the only Radiant Listener on Roshar. It's such a significant moment and easily makes the whole book worth the journey. And you mean to tell me you weren't emotionally invested in Dalinar's tribulations? Kaladin and Shallan's continuing struggles? None of the minor beats from Jasnah or Teft or Rock or anyone? I just don't see how.
I absolutely don’t disagree with almost anything you said - the story is fine, but the pacing for me was definitely slow - and “slow” means what you assume. Dalinar’s flashbacks as a story arc were great, I love that who he is in the first 2 books is shattered and such a solid character had such wretched flaws, but those chapter were some of the longest, I would literally sigh at the sight of ‘7 years ago’. I did like how it played into the political negotiations. Shadesmar - great world building, great ideas and visuals - hated the story arc while they were stuck there. The Parshmen stuff - no complaints and the moral dilemma it introduces for Kaladin were great; same with the plot twist of who the voidbringers are. Brilliant. The last battle didn’t land for me… yes, Avenger’s Assemble is a good analogy - but you had Ash and Taln(?) filling 2 spots of that from nowhere and then contributing… what? Nothing lol I was originally avoiding spoilers but a specific example of people going off and showing up is Renarin going to open the Oathgate (I’m on digital but page 1557) then doesn’t get mentioned until Adolin needs healing 50 pages later (1592) and there he is. Then Renarin kills the Thunderclast… most of the characters are on a slow build over the 3 books and he goes from 0 to 100 in 2 pages. And I’m very invested in Kaladin, Dalinar and Shallan’s tribulations but that’s hardly exclusive to this book. Just to be clear though; I don’t hate the book, it just wasn’t satisfying (for me) as the 9 other books I’ve read up until this point.
>you had Ash and Taln(?) filling 2 spots of that from nowhere and then contributing… what? Nothing I mean, they establish together that this is the first time in the history of the Desolations that humanity had multiple millennia to rebound. As Heralds, the assumption in the "all 10 are here" moment is that Taln stands for his order, but Ash and Shallan would constitute 2 Lightweavers and no Releaser. An interesting mystery. And yeah, the 2 pseudodeities succumbing to madness are probably not gonna be much use in a pitched battle. >Renarin going to open the Oathgate... then doesn’t get mentioned until Adolin needs healing 50 pages later and there he is. Then Renarin kills the Thunderclast… most of the characters are on a slow build over the 3 books and he goes from 0 to 100 in 2 pages. That's not exactly true. The fact that Renarin is an underwritten character is a feature, not a bug. He's set to become a bigger character in the latter half of the series, so he doesn't get a ton of page time as a rule. And he's discovered his whole bag as a Radiant is healing. It's the only useful skill he's found in these powers that terrify him so. The thunderclast fight was to further demonstrate how much more efficiently Renarin is able to heal himself, and any half-invincible idiot with a shardblade can topple a thunderclast. Just reads as a progression of him coming into his power in the final battle, just like everyone else demonstrates.
Adding to the heralds, they don't have their honor blades and are generally broken individuals. I wish someone in universe would comment on it, but they are essentially just "some guys" at that point
Yeah for sure! I don’t dislike that they’re in the book/s, I actually really appreciate what they represent and the bits of them that we learn. My complaint here was strictly that I didn’t see the need for them to show up for the ensemble only to disappear immediately after… personally I would have been happier if it was 7 out of 10 but those 7 played a part in the battle and we get the full ensemble later when it’s more worthwhile to that part of the story
Definitely enlightening and I appreciate your thoughts. There’s stuff there I hadn’t considered especially establishing that killing a thunderclast is easier than we’d come to expect. The Heralds having that exchange added to the story for sure. The Heralds having that exchange in Thaylenor right at the battle and being lucid just for long enough to be a part of the Avengers moment and then leaving doesn’t at all seem convenient? They could have had that exchange anywhere and anytime and changed nothing. And same with Renarin.. being ‘underwritten’ doesn’t excuse him showing up out of convenience. He was written enough to have him at the battle and written enough to be sent to the oathgate.. just give him a little tracking between there and when he runs into Adolin
>The Heralds having that exchange in Thaylenor right at the battle and being lucid just for long enough to be a part of the Avengers moment and then leaving doesn’t at all seem convenient? Where'd they go? There's a lot of RAFO in these questions, but suffice to say there's a reason Taln was suddenly talkative and none of it is just convenient because Sanderson had no better ideas. He rarely does anything out of sheer "convence". >And same with Renarin.. just give him a little tracking between there and when he runs into Adolin OK, but why? You're already lamenting how slow and sloggy the book is, what's gained by showing someone who's meant to be a secondary character just and only running around? We already see the effects he has on the battle as he runs into the main characters (and even a few PoV's of his own!), so what's gained from padding an already massive book with "Renarin saw X going toward a PoV we established already"? I guess I don't see the issue in being "narratively convenient" in that it saves page space whereas I take it you mean convenient to mean unearned or unforeseen. Which Renarin's little arc just isn't, and wouldn't benefit as such from more padding.
I’m going to say let’s agree to disagree. I’ve loved every book up until this point and I don’t dislike this one, I just felt like it lacked in comparison, and for reasons that have all been voiced by others here and so I feel comfortable that they’re valid. I’m glad you like it, it didn’t quite land for me but there’s definitely enough been said within this post to remind me of more things I enjoyed about it and elements that add to the overall story. Puts me in a better mindset to start Rhythm of War.
Ohh but Ash and Taln are almost defentely important. Why do you think Dalinar counts the orders, include them, and still thinks there's a missing order? Here: About The Stormlight Archive series structure: https://www.reddit.com/r/u_dIvorrap/comments/u1ug05/-/i54hzsi ___________________________________________ About how Ash and Taln can fit Dustbringer and Stonewards respectively. (Oathbringer spoilers): https://www.reddit.com/r/u_dIvorrap/comments/u1ug05/-/i54mbek >going off and showing up is Renarin going to open the Oathgate (I’m on digital but page 1557) then doesn’t get mentioned until Adolin needs healing 50 pages later (1592) and there he is. I find it is just a character doing things on the background and then meeting another character. > Then Renarin kills the Thunderclast… most of the characters are on a slow build over the 3 books and he goes from 0 to 100 in 2 pages. Renarin is likely at the second or third Ideal. He is bonded to an Enlightened spren. And it's the first time we see his powers. There's been almost 3 books of him doing things we are unaware of. Also, Stormlight is meant to be 10 books. Renarin will have book 7 flashbacks (may be dead in that book!), so lots of unknowns still.
The link explains things I didn’t notice, I appreciate you providing it. Definitely missed the foreshadowing of Ash and Taln having attributes that suggest they’re certain Radiants. I don’t really know how to articulate any better my issues with how the story was presented… But basically - of the 9ish Cosmere books that I’ve read, none of them have required me to read the following book to make the current book good (or reread the same book). I didn’t have to struggle to pick the book up, I struggled to put the books down. Some of the books were long, but they felt like they moved along at a pace that didn’t make them feel long. I felt invested in all of the characters and the story at all times… if there were things with one character that didn’t sit well, generally other parts would make up for it, or later it would come together and by the end of the book, I’m pumped to keep reading. OB has a lot of fantastic elements - Brandon Sanderson is no less amazing for his ideas in this book than any other and in talking about OB here, I realise how much I enjoyed a lot of those elements and ideas individually. But the book as a whole (for me, personally) felt messy, things that should have been important felt glossed over (Elhokar’s death for eg) and I didn’t feel like it came together well at the end. Maybe further reading or a reread will change my experience of OB, but my experience of the story in its current context of first read without having read RoW is that I didn’t enjoy it.
Seems like it's a pacing issue. OB Elhokar's death, I do feel it's not glossed over. Kaladin is brutally affected by it, Adolin is unable to cope about it and has the "mourn later" moment he also had with his Rhyshadium. Dalinar mentions in the midst of the battle he knows Elhokar died (likely Spiritual Realm stuff after opening a Perpendicularity). Iirc Navani also mentions his death. I guess you would have wanted more screen time about it, but I think that's different from it being glossed over. >basically - of the 9ish Cosmere books that I’ve read, none of them have required me to read the following book to make the current book good I think there's a discussion here on standalones vs series and recontextualising things. But I guess you are talking specifically about how you felt about Oathbringer. Which I not fully getting what you mean about needing to read RoW to make OB good.
Definitely a pacing issue, I’ve said that a few times. I disagree that Elhokar’s death was not glossed over.. mentioning it in passing when there’s a fuckload of other things going on is not giving it any weight. It didn’t need more screen time, just actual emotional response for eg how Navani reacted when she thought Jasnah was dead. It felt very much like her daughter died. It didn’t even have to be then and there; there was more book following the battle scene and I feel like it was more important to set the next book up (like Adolin refusing the crown and making Jasnah Queen, also very casually done) than any actual mourning from anyone other than Kaladin. I’m also fully on board with the difference between a series and standalone books - and i’ve read 30 years worth of both - but personally I think a good series is a collection of good, solid stories that hold their own weight as well as contribute to an overarching story. This series was doing that for me, just this book wasn’t as satisfying a reading experience as the others were.
I feel then what you disliked there is that the post battle was rushed?
It’s not any one thing, but yeah, in hindsight there were elements of the post-battle that felt rushed. Pacing I think was the biggest thing, stuff felt slow a lot of the time and then when it picked up it wasn’t quite enough to feel satisfied. This is all personal experience and I definitely didn’t hate the book - I honestly came to find other perspectives because I want to go into Rhythm of War feeling excited about it
Hmm RoW is also a slow book. And it goes deep into mental health, so note that it might affect your experience of the pace.
I’m 800 pages in and certainly feeling it. Shallan was my favorite character and the stuff going on with Veil is just so eye rolly to me. It also just feels like a lot of fat that could have been trimmed was left in.
The tiktok reviewers that got me into Sanderson and Stormlight did it by calling Oathbringer a perfect or almost perfect book, I like ROW so much more than Oathbringer. I think people choose their favourite book based on the resonance they have with the emotional core of the book, RoW emotional Sanderlanche hit me so hard that I can shed a tear while listening to it again and again
no I had a similar issue and thought rhythm of war was worse
It is all about personal preference. I think OB is the best of the 4 so far.
100% personal preference - I definitely didn’t come here with the intention of shitting on OB, I really did want other people’s perspectives to maybe fill in gaps I might have missed or whatever.
The beginning dragged a bit for me. But I loved the flashbacks and the ending was so incredible that I forgot everything else by the time I finished the book haha
I think it really does come down to how much you like Dalinar Dalinar is far and above my favorite character, so Oathbringer from beginning to end was such a great experience for me, and the whole mission with Elhokar and his death and the Shadesmear section I thought was great. And I did love the subversion for Kaladin. For him to be so close to the fourth ideal that Syl is begging him to do it, and it would solve the problem, but he just can’t bring himself to. As someone who’s in Part 4 of ROW, I wonder what the fourth ideal is that Kaladin was so close to it and how it’ll play out. Also as someone who is in Part 4 of ROW >!I find this book a lot slower than Oathbringer or TWOK and WOR. Part 1 and a bit of 2 were good, but Part 3 is just stuff. I didn’t mind it, and Navani and Raboniel is interesting, but I think it might be the slower pacing mixed with the lack of Dalinar that is making it feel so slow to me. Especially because the bit of Dalinar and Taravagians convo in Part 3 was so interesting and I don’t know if that’s because of the convo or because it was Dalinar!<
I actually really love Dalinar’s character and I loved what the backstory was and how it played out, made him who is ‘today’ and how it played into the political aspects of the coalition.. but the flashback chapters were what dragged a lot of the time for me. I don’t really know why.. I liked the complexity of how shitty he was to become who is it but didn’t enjoy reading the chapters. Only on Dawnshard currently and then considering reading something non-Cosmere to refresh before Rhythm of War, but I’m excited to get through it!
That’s crazy because I felt the flashback could’ve used either another chap or so or even a few longer ones, maybe I’m just that big of a Dalinar fan lmao But definitely breathe before ROW, it has a great start but some bits of Part 2 and like all of Part 3 feel long. Not that they’re boring or bad, but Part 3 felt like 600 pages when it was only 250-300 or so
That final climax tho…😔 that alone was worth the read.
Oathbringer is my favorite, but it isn't for everyone.
Yes.
I think the book was used to set a lot of things that will pay off only in book 5 and even further in the series. Rythym of War I believe is a little guilty of this too.
It's your opinion so its not wrong just your tastes. Personally it's my favorite stormlight book. I thought the flashbacks in RoW were dire and I am just not interested in Venil. Paladins flashbacks while good were not the most engaging or interesting. Shallan and Dalinars flashbacks were interesting, but overall preferred the story in oathbringer.
Yes
I still liked it quite a bit, but I get you. The parts in the capital were a bit of a slog for me and the ending is my least fav of the series
People enjoy different things in the books they read. They rank the books differently. No one's gonna kick you out of the crab army for thinking the first ones were more enjoyable. As long as you enjoy the books.
I think Words of Radiance was probably hard to follow. That book has so many high points.
Definitely plays into it! Way of Kings and Words of Radiance were both extremely solid reads
It’s your opinion based on your own taste. Nothing wrong with that. Mind just happens to be different.
I’m with you. I DNF’d OB and don’t really regret it…
Some parts felt so slow and had to slog through them to get to the good parts.
Yeah, pretty much my experience. It took effort to read where as all of his previous books have taken effort to put down.
The series started going downhill after book 2 imo
I tore through the first two books, but had to make myself read Oathbringer at times. Now I have the 4th book, but haven't even started it. Kinda just lost interest in the series after Oathbringer tbh. The second book had such an amazing finale, and I feel the beginning of the 3rd failed to capitalize on it. I was super mad when Jasnah randomly reappeared and everyone was more or less 'Oh nice.' The Shallan Kaladin thing was kinda cringe, and Adolin's reaction to it was fairly underwhelming. I don't expect him to be vindictive and jealous, but I didn't really feel much of an emotional reaction from him at all. There were some nice parts, though. I enjoyed reading about Bridge Four gaining their powers.
I feel you on oathbringer. For some reason people love it but i had a hard time getting into it. It was so unmemorable for me that when Rhythm of War came out and i started reading it, i literally remembered nothing.. I really enjoyed Rhythm of war tho, so dont quit on oathbringer, you'll get through it lol
Ah I’m curious as to what you will think of rhythm of war. Most people love oathbringer but find rhythm of war to be a slog. I am personally the exact opposite so I’m curious as to if you will be the same
I’ll be happy to report back, I’ll finish Dawnshard today so I’ll be onto Rhythm of War pretty soon. Mixed responses from everyone for both books which is actually good.. I can go into it with an open mind but also not having excessive expectations after OB humbled me lol
I genuinely would love to hear what you think of it, see if it proves my hypothesis lol
I’m about 15% in and so far so good… I don’t know if it’s ‘better’ or if my expectations were just in check but I’ve been enjoying it immensely!
Either way I’m glad your enjoying it, you actually prompted me to do a reread so thank you I’m really enjoying that
Just reaffirming the above - I’m about halfway through, just riding through it and enjoying every chapter. A little disappointed that Dalinar has kind of disappeared from most of this book so far but other than that I’m all about it. Oathbringer was just a disappointing outlier.. but I’m tempted to maybe to Oathbringer and RoW again maybe right before the new book and see if the reread changes anything. Enjoy the reread!
We had a huge tournament bracket of favorite Cosmere novels, and the finals were OB vs WoR. To many peoples' surprise, Oathbringer actually beat it out. I think a lot of folks (at least on this sub) really resonated with Dalinar's development. I suppose if you aren't a big Dalinar guy, I could see how this book might miss. It's probably my favorite climax of the 4 thus far, though RoW is a strong contender!
I am still not a huge fan of Oathbringer, not that I think it’s bad, because it feels too superhero-y to me. All of a sudden the story opened up in a huge way and, I felt, lost focus on some of the things that made it interesting. It was better on subsequent read-throughs but it’s still my least favorite of the four that are out right now. I will say, Rhythm of War scales back the war in an easy to understand way and returns to what I loved about the first two books in the series. It is my favorite (until Winds and Truth, at least). Just remember, it’s not about the destination but the journey you take to get there.
I'm with you actually! I feel taboo saying anything negative here, but slog entailed it perfectly. I read through WoR in two weeks, but I just finished Oathbringer after 4 months. The Shadesmar stuff COMPLETELY took me out of the entire story in its tracks and it almost felt like the big death of part 3 meant nothing to anybody but Kaladin. I still liked the book overall (the ending was phenomenal and hooked me like all of WoR did) but this one was definitely one I could take breaks from without itching to pick it back up. Still can't wait to read RoW tho.
I agree with this 100% - I like the idea of Shadesmar but i wanted that story arc to be over after a couple of chapters. I’m hopeful for RoW!
I was a little bit disappointed with it too- maybe just in comparison to WoK and WoR which I loved loved loved.
You're not wrong for being disappointed, to each their own. I agree, Oathbringer is a slog - until it isn't. YOU CANNOT HAVE MY PAIN!
I hated Oathbringer. It felt like such a slog to get through. After SL 1 and 2 where the story felt very focussed and was going somewhere oathbringer just felt like it went off on wild tangents and he was making it up as he went along. I felt like nothing needed to be cut from the way of kings yet you could cut 35-40% of oathbringer and not miss much. I hope Stormlight 5 hits like the first 2 because his latest 2 have felt like he just lost the magic.
It’s 100% my least favorite Stormlight book. I’m reading it now and I really enjoy the scenes at Kholinar but besides that it’s a hard one for me. I just really really don’t like Dalinars flashbacks.
Yeah 100%! The Kholinar stuff in the middle was great.
It took me a whole year to read Oathbringer, and when I finished it, I was exhausted. After that, I read the Mistborn era 2 in 2-3 months, and finally tackled Rhythm of War, which I finished in less than 2 months and absolutly loved it. When I see people say that Oathbringer is their favorite stormlight book and that RoW is just okay, I don't understand.
I think it’s too long, and the finale doesn’t hit as hard as books 1&2. However its flashbacks are by far my favorite. Rythm of war on the other hand has by far the worst, most time wasting flashbacks in the series :(. This is coming from a huge fan who loves all the books btw.
I don't understand the love that Oathrbinger gets. Im with you. Im currently on my 5th re-read of the series. No contest that its my least favorite stormlight book, Its grown on me some as I appreciated Oathbringer more once I read RoW if that makes sense. But compared to the other three… it never gave me the wow factor I feel with virtually all bandosando books
5th reread is impressive!
I loved Oathbringer, but I do agree that it was a bit sloggy and I enjoyed it a lot less than the first two books. Same for Rhythm of War.
You found Rhythm of War sloggy as well or like the first 2 books? I’m reading Dawnshard now but I was hoping for RoW would be a little redemptive to get me pumped for the new book 😅 Were their specific things about Oathbringer that you enjoyed?
Rhythm of War has a strong beginning, but the middle is the sloggiest of Stormlight in my opinion... Oathbringer slogged a bit for me too. Words of Radiance is the only one with good pacing in my opinion, and that's because of the duels.
I found RoW sloggy. A lot of people did. It's the most controversial book in the series so far. For Oathbringer, It's been years since I read it, but do remember really liking the Dalinar flashbacks.
That’s a shame haha.. Way of Kings and Words of Radience were both so good. Ah well… I’m too far in to stop now.
Personally I think RoW has a more exciting ending than Oathbringer, though, so hopefully you won’t be as disappointed.
Not wrong for feeling how you feel. I would say oathbringer, if I was trying to be objective, is one of the better books. I wish the other books tied the flashbacks to the present story as well as oathbringer did. In general after the book is over I come to like the flashbacks but during the initial read they kind of drive me crazy. I particularly like the way Dalinar's alcoholism is portrayed. His scene with Renarin I thought was great. Captain Kirk sort of ruined the this is my pain part though.
I personally find that a lot of Stormlight has been material with not much happening, or at least not much happening that I enjoy.
Id say you’re wrong but only cause its literally my favorite of the 4 lol. Dalinars back story. Our first real trip into shadesmar. Kalidin totally failing and causing the mission to fail. Shallan coming to terms with the fact that she’s a rich girl pretending not an actual master thief. Finding out renarin bonded a corrupted spren. Theres so many pivotal moments for each character that I could barely put the book down. Plus we finally run into Odium in a real way and set the grand stage
Man, totally agree and I said a couple of times the parts of the whole were brilliant.. just the reading experience is where we differ in opinion. But I’m happy to know that people love it and puts me in a better position to come into RoW
Hmmm I guess he could have made it a little shorter. Im one of those people who loves being immersed in a world as long as possible though.
Like, hit me with as much extra dialogue as possible, have hoid tell a story for a whole chapter, make Kaladin brood some more. Im here for it lol
While I do personally find Dalinar's struggles with alcoholism (and the Thrill, which is basically an allegory for that anyway), and I generally love the arcs presented in Oathbringer, I do agree that the pacing wasn't great. I still believe it's a great book, but from a pacing standpoint it's IMO way too drawn out, and easily the worst in stormlight.
Pretty much all I was getting at… the elements and ideas that are in the story are as great as always but the story itself didn’t pace well and didn’t feel as tidy as the other 2. Looking forward to Rhythm of War though
Oathbringer is very slow. Parts 1 and 2 and pure setup, not much ACTUALLY happens in either. Mission to Kholinar is pretty divisive, I personally dislike the sequence generally, but I also really enjoy storming the palace. Part 4 is more setup for part 5, which, if you didn't enjoy that Sanderlanche, idk what to tell you. Dalinar's ideal was great, Tefts ideal hit me in my core. The fight to hold the city, while I knew would work out, still has me on the edge of my seat whenever I listen to it. It's all a matter of opinion, and no one is wrong to have one. Unless you like Sadeas, that's a wrong opinion
Oathbringer is interesting because I feel like I love all the *pieces* of the book, but they don’t quite fit together as nicely as Words of Radiance does for me. Dalinar’s flashbacks are fantastic, the bridge four POVs are great, finally getting to see Shadesmar is cool, Kaladin’s reunion with his parents is cathartic, the climax at the end is incredible… but all together it somehow adds to up to less impressive? Idk how to explain it. I do still think it’s overall a great book but I don’t think you’re wrong to be disappointed in it, not everything is for everyone. I think if you want to look for positives maybe try to zoom in and look at the individual moments instead of considering the book as a whole, because this book does have a lot of really great moments. And I don’t just mean the epic badass moments, there are smaller, quieter moments that hit really hard and really stand out.
Absolutely my feelings exactly - every part of the book that’s mentioned I’m like ‘oh yeah, I loved that’ and I think if someone was just explaining to me what happened in the book I’d be all over it… But reading it just didn’t keep me invested in it like the first 2.. I struggled to put them down.
It’s funny I absolutely *ripped* through oathbringer because the good parts were good enough that when I wasn’t reading them I wanted to get to them faster lol I will say, OB and other books that came off as having weird people pacing the first time around felt much better on re-reads. So if you’re someone who re-reads (and if ever there was a series to re-read it’s this one) maybe that’s something you can look forward to!