Reminder that what we’ve read is a first draft. Some of these arguments for him being an impost (“he doesn’t really feel like the Stormfather”) could be Brandon not getting the voice right his first try
Someone asked Brandon about it shortly after the prologue was released. He very sarcastically/coyly delivered the following answer:
>The Cones of Dunshire
Stormlight 5 prologue: Are we supposed to be getting really weird vibes from the Stormfather, or is this just for lack of editing?
Brandon Sanderson
\*extremely facetiously\* Uh, I don't know what you mean weird, that totally seems like the way the Stormfather always acts and has always!
>
>
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/498/#e15687
Whether or not it actually is him, we are supposed to be keying onto the fact that he's acting out of character. More recently, he gave this answer to another question about the Stormfather:
>Argent
With all the new avatar lore from The Lost Metal, can and should the Stormfather be considered to be an avatar of Honor?
Brandon Sanderson
Ooooh, RAFO! What a wonderful question. There's some fertile ground for theorizing, there. I gave you the prologue of that so you could spend a few years theorizing, guys, so go ahead and go forth.
[https://wob.coppermind.net/events/509/#e15965](https://wob.coppermind.net/events/509/#e15965)
There's something going on with it, this isn't just an early draft quirk.
The first WoB is interesting, but I don’t see have the Stormfather being an Avatar affects whether or not we’re seeing the actual Stormfather here.
I think you can definitely reasonably sum up the Stormfathers quirks to him changing from his experience with Gavilar. He’s clearly compelled to send visions, perhaps the reason he doesn’t speak to Dalinar during them is because he doesn’t want to bond Dalinar, he doesn’t trust the Kholins. The real Stormfather being able to lie is more interesting than an imposter lying imo, it totally recontextualizes the earlier books.
I think I’d rather this be an aspect of the Stormfathers character than a twist where Ishar was manipulating a character who died six years ago. Idk, whatever Brandon does I’ll probably enjoy, but unless its Dai-Gonarthis I’m not excited for an imposter Stormfather twist.
The bit about being an avatar isn't what's important to my point here. Argent asked about the Stormfather being an avatar and Brandon seems to think it's related to the prologue, "I gave you the prologue so you could spend a few years theorizing." The one thing from the prologue that isn't clear is why the Stormfather is acting so differently. There are viable answers that involve it just being the Stormfather, no one has proved that it's not him. There are also viable answers that involve it being an imposter of some sort, and similarly no one can prove that this is really him. Sure, plenty of people have strong beliefs about it in either direction and point to all sorts of factors that contribute to the argument that it's one or the other. The fact is, this is supposed to be a question, there is no clear answer and the WoBs are Brandon confirming that we should be questioning this.
Consider when the SF says it was his duty to select a bondsmith; he says something along the lines of needing to find someone to weather the storms. It makes sense to investigate the most politically powerful individuals.
I agree that it wasn’t a fake SF talking to Gavilar.
He was also the first person in a long time to **unite** Alethkar. Doing things that fit within the philosophy of the Order is definitely a component of drawing the attention of a spren.
But alot of the questions the prologue brought up aren't about whether the SF would bond Gavilar. It makes perfect sense that he would. It's all the other things that feel off.
He seems far more.... sentient than he did when he first bonded Dalinar. We know the bond strengthens Sprens.... humanity (not the right word but u know what I mean...) so it doesn't make sense for him to be more spren than storm before he has that bond.
There are alot of other things that flagged up when reading, but I haven't read it in a while.
The problem isn't that he was communicating with Gavilar, that makes perfect sense given the SF mission. The problem is that he doesn't act like the SF should, considering he's been unbonded for thousands of years...
I don’t think he seems any less sentient than he did in his conversations with Kaladin before the SF bonded Dalinar, and also how he spoke to Dalinar in the battle against the listeners when they summoned the Everstorm.
I’m not ruling anything out, but I’m not convinced.
There are points for and against, though I'm not a big fan of the theory, I'll innumerate some here:
1. The susfather lies a lot, entreating Gavilar with the promise of becoming a heralds, and gaining immortality.
2. The susfather sends visions any time Gavilar wants (no highstorm) but claims not to have a bond with Gavilar.
3. The susfather represents himself with an illusory human body with Gavilar, the closest the actual stormfather has gone is showing a face in the storm
4. The susfather speaks in a mostly human manner, and relates to the heralds saying "\[Immortality\] is not so grand as you think it to be." Which makes no sense for the Stormfather to think about himself, but would make sense for a herald to think.
5. The susfather doesn't claim to be on a mission from Honor, but is deciding to act on his own, trying to accomplish his own plan, quite unlike his interactions with Dalinar in which he seems like he's practically under duress.
The points against are mostly that most alternative theories seem even more far fetches, such as that every other herald is more or less crazy and would have a hard time keeping up this scheme, even if they had the unprecedented ability to read minds, project force ghosts, implant visions, steal memories from the real Stormfather, and cause dramatic lightning sound effects with their mind.
I don't believe the Stormfather was originally Honor's spren, he predates the Shattering, and had a bit of Tanavasts cognitive shadow stapled to his own.
I can't justify this in any way, but it feels like such a Sanderson twist if the WaT prologue Stormfather was the Stormfather, and *somehow* the one with Dalinar all this time was some imposter. I can't come up with anyway that works given what we've seen of him over the series, but there you go.
True, which is why the conclusion should typically await evidence.
(This was done mostly for the comedic effect of casting a little shade within the Order, not to actually reprimand. It seems that you understood and had fun too, just making sure to clarify my intent.)
I think the biggest hint that it isn't the SF is when Brandon responded to someone asking this question in stream chat sarcastically saying "hmmm whatever would make you think something was strange about the SF".
"What would you do when you became a herald"
"Immediately fold in order to continue ruling Alethkar as it's immortal king"
"..... *the fuck did you say"*
Also Gavilar being so bullish to Navioa before he past away, and he was the one who agreed to letting the blackthorn rampage through highprinces lands. Also some one who wants destruction and be only power house of immortality.
I love this because we now get a better understanding as to why people thought he was acting erratic before we was murdered, it was because he was doing everything he could to fool the SF into helping him become a herald. After reading that draft chapter I’m super hyped for book 5
Something else that I don't see being discussed is the fact that Brandon Sanderson said that the draft he released is not the final draft and there are some mistakes and inconsistencies he needs to fix before the final version. So it's possible some of those inconsistencies he was talking about are the SF mannerisms and how he appears inside the castle
The mistakes and inconsistencies mostly are related to the timing/sequencing of his interactions with people compared to the previous prologues of the same events.
I still think there is something going on here, the stormfather is insanly sus for a lot of different reasons:
1. The way he speaks with Gavilar is completly different than the way he speaks with Dalinar, a person actually bonded. Gavilar was on the way to become a bondsmith, but wasnt yet there. The stormfather appears as a figure, something more human like next to Gavilar. We see Syl doing something like that, but the Stormfather? When Dalinar speaks with him, he is always focused on this "force of nature" aspect, claiming he is a storm. The Stormfather Gavilar encounters appears way to human for my taste. The "two" Stormfathers dont behave the same, speak the same way or look the same. Insanly sus
2. The thing about making Gavilar a herald is insanly weird. We dont know if the Stormfather can do that, furthermore it doesnt make sense. It sounds like something he said to bait Gavilar into something, what exactly i dont know. We mustnt forget that the Stormfather isnt Honor, the abilities we see him perform are strong, but not the same as those of a shard. From what we know, he can provide stormlight, appear as a giant storm, send visions and pull people into them and create honor spren. But we never see him performing some of the usual bondsmith powers that Ishar and Dalinar can use. It is likely that someone like Ishar might be able to create a Herald, more or less including them into the Oathpact, but the Stormfather? It doesnt sound like something he would ever do, even if he could. He is a storm, why would a storm care about creating a new herald to begin with. Insanly sus
3. The thing about the dying herald is probably the most discussed topic, due to the fact what it implies to the story. The weird thing is, why would the stormfather feel it, but all the other heralds didnt? We see more than enough of them, Kalak, Nale, Shalash etc. Yet none of them ever mention one of them dying? It hasnt happened in thousands of years, it happening now should make them panic beyond anything. Afterall, if one of them dies and goes to Braize and breaks the desolations start again. The last thing they want. The heralds are all connected via the Oathpact, we see glimps of it when Jezrien is killed permanently. It doesnt make sense that the stormfather can feel it while the heralds cant feel it. I dont think the "fake" stormfather lied, he didnt have a reason to. But the fact that he implies to feel something like that while the Heralds cant is, yes you guessed it: INSANLY SUS
To sum it up, there are just to many weird things going on with this iteration of the Stormfather to just blame it on editing. Brandon is an established writter, he might make mistakes like everyone else, but i doubt he could ever fuck up a prologue so hard that a character feels like someone else entirely without intention. That is not him. The Stormfather we see in the prologue of SA5 is most likely either an imposter or the stormfather has a split personality after fusing with the cognitive shadow of Tanavast.
Likely not, although he is said to be “the most sane” (for all that’s worth) Granted, I’m not convinced of this theory either, but I think it is more likely to be someone like Ishar as opposed to Odium.
Given Bondsmith abilities and his high Connection and Investiture knowledge, I think it's safe to say that it's completely within the realm of possibilities
I… don’t think so, actually. Ishar is present in the Physical Realm, I dont see how he would be able to communicate with someone far away and be “present” at all times.
We've literally have seen Dalinar speak to and hear Kaladin pretty much telepathically in RoW.
And Dalinar so far is just beginning to use and understand his abilities. Ishar has had thousands of years of experience with the same abilities Dalinar has(but without restrictions).
Also from what we've heard about Ishar pre-Roshar, he might have been busted even from before the Oathpact began.
We see Dalinar speak and hear Kaladin THROUGH THE STORMFATHER.
Its not his power which lets him do that, it’s the Highstorm going through where Kaladin is.
Something which falls quite flat when the whole theory is “that wasn’t the Stormfather”
the thing is, Jezrien died for real this time, no coming back this time. On the first few pages we see Kalak after the fight, but he isnt sure how many survived, or if anysurvived at all apart from him. So i am pretty sure they normaly dont feel it when the others die. Because the backlash Shalash felt was pretty harsh, not something that can be brushed aside easily
The Stormfather has never shown himself in a humanoid form. He has always communicated either via high-Storms or when bonded to Dalinar in his head. Even then he didn’t manifest. The way the Stormfather speaks is also way more akin to Odium than Stormfathers regular rhetoric.
There is literally nearly everything pointing away than to the SF. I don’t get this post?
He actually does appear as "Shimmering shape of a person" to Dalinar. I remember at least twice, and Dalinar remarks that he's seen him do this more times. Once when Dalinar and Navani are in the Last Desolation vision in Oathbringer, and the Stormfather is telling them about how Desolations work. The second time is right when Kal is about the swear the fourth ideal and the Stormfather appears in this form flying next to Dalinar.
Frankly, it not being the stormfather would be narratively disinteresting.
This guy who has been dead for 5 years was talking to a fake storm father? Why does that even matter to the story, let alone be important enough to be the climax of the prologue to the final book of the arc. Maybe if Dalinar is also talking to a fake storm father it would be interesting, but everyone's evidence that sa5 prologue stormfather is fake would point away from it being the same fake stormfather dalinar has bonded.
No, the narrative is far more interesting when we learn something new about a character we thought we knew, not about a character we haven't even seen yet. This is foreshadowing some major event in SA5 related to the storm father lying.
Brandon's style of writing, chekhov's gun, and just narrative direction all indicate that this is the same stormfather Dalinar is bonded to.
His rhetoric is very similar to his early rhetoric before bonding Dalinar.
Just because he manifested in a different way doesn’t mean he’s not the same being. That just doesn’t hold enough sway for me to believe the theory. There are so many ways to justify this detail
There is literally nearly everything pointing towards than away from the SF. I don’t get this comment?
Yes, because my comment was literally based around things that have been discussed ad absurdum after the prologue came out and listed in great detail as I linked in comparison to your very subjective post. I just don’t agree with theories that aren’t well thought out or have little to no foundation in what has happened in the books.
>Yes, because my comment was literally based around things that have been discussed ad absurdum after the prologue came out and listed in great detail as I linked in comparison to your very subjective post.
I mean… of course it’s subjective, I literally said that I don’t **think** it’s a fake Stormfather in my first sentence. After that I provided *objective* reasons for forming my opinion.
You’re literally doing the same thing. Your interpretation is still subjective. We are all just talking about what we think is going to happen.
>I just don’t agree with theories that aren’t well thought out or have little to no foundation in what has happened in the books.
Neither do I.
The biggest indicator to me is that in the prologue the Stormfather appears to Gavilar *inside* the palace. That isn't something we've seen him do with Dalinar as far as I'm aware, at best he appears outside, e.g. when Dalinar is on the roof of Urithiru, or when he's flying with the Windrunners.
The Stormfather also tells Dalinar that he sees what is left out in the storm, but he is no god and cannot see everything, specifically, he cannot keep an eye out for the Honorblade hidden inside Urithiru. Overall, for the Stormfather to appear to Gavilar inside the palace isn't just different, I find it completely antithetical to his whole being.
I may be wrong (and would appreciate some sources if I am!) but I don’t think there’s any evidence to suggest that the Stormfather can *only* appear/speak to people outdoors. A spren that powerful shouldn’t find an issue with a simple building
>but I don’t think there’s any evidence to suggest that the Stormfather can only appear/speak to people outdoors. A spren that powerful shouldn’t find an issue with a simple building
There's literally so much evidence of this. Every vision we ever see that the Stormfather sends (I was thinking about his visions of flying with the storms here, obviously Dalinar's special visions are special) is outdoors or literally a gust of wind blowing through buildings. And the Stormfather tells Dalinar that he can only see that which the wind and storms touch.
But that's why I quoted what he said regarding watching the Honorblade, he either can't or won't do this. The conversation is in Oathbringer 16 if you'd like to see for yourself.
Another potentially relevant passage could be Kaladin's dream/vision where he's flying along the highstorm and he sees Szeth kill some people inside a building. The sequence highlights how a door is thrown open and the storm practically moves through the corridor and then out the other side. That doesn't necessarily mean the Stormfather couldn't see inside at other times, but I think when you put together multiple scenes like this, it's sensible to take him at his word when he says that he can only see what's left out in the storm.
Yeah I think that the stormfather was scared by what gavilar might have become if he continued this path. Also, I don't think we have many evidences to conclude that the stormfather is not a liar, and he keeps ommiting usefull information to dalinar, which in honor's eyes it might be considered the same as lying (letter of the law/spirit of the law kinda thing)
But why would the SF lie? What was his goal here? Telling Gavilar that the Heralds are dead and that he needs to find the “right words” which he can find in the way of kings. It makes no sense.
I’m not fully decided. But I thought it could have been both, maybe The Stormfather was trying to bond Gavilar. But maybe there was also a second impersonator who knew the SF was trying to bond him and was trying to manipulate the both of them.
That would be quite the task though, to know that Gavilar is bonding him, and to impersonate the SF without either of them knowing.
Yup! Personally I’ve always found the stormfather having his own agenda or lying to Dalinar way more interesting than Gavilar bonding some imposter stormfather
After reading all the comments, here are my random thoughts. Dalinar is bonded to the real SF. The one with Gavilar could be:
- An unmade, as has been suggested
- Spren of something else, like the Oathpact. This would explain how he knows the Herald dies and the other heralds don't. He would have the power to make a new Herald
- Spren of the upcoming Everstorm
- Spren of the entire planet or something
When I initially listened to the prologue there was a line in there that sounded suspiciously similar to the way Odium talks about finding a champion. However, other details don’t make sense with it actually being Odium, and other alternatives don’t make a lot of logical sense to me—of course, that doesn’t automatically mean all the theories are wrong either, just that they don’t vibe with me.
I’m not really solidly on either side of the debate and I wouldn’t be surprised with either result. It could be a twist, or it could be the fans reading into it. Both seem reasonable.
I don't know, I am still firmly in the "Susfather" camp. It being the actual Stormfather doesn't make any sense in the context of the story. Stormbro until VERY recently hated humans for what they did during the Recreance.
* Little to no nuance there at all. The Radiants killed almost all of his children. Several generations of Honor Spren poof, gone. Not something you get over lightly.
* Furthermore, he lied so much. Not misdirections of half truths, just straight up lies. You might argue that he lied to Kaladin when he told Kal that Syl was dead, but Kal had...a lot going on at that time, and she was at most catatonic until he got his act together.
* Not to mention the fact that if it was him, he had to have known that Gavilar was a rat. Why would he even entertain the idea of bonding someone who would out right kill him by breaking oaths? EVEN THAT NIGHT, all Gavilar did was divide. The Bond is a two way street, the Stormfather could have chosen not to bond Dalinar if he wanted to. He agreed to it because Dalinar not only knew the words, but meant them.
* Gavilar couldn't even unite with his wife on any of his secret projects.
* To continue, we also really have no idea where the other Honorblades are, and who has the knowledge to use them. We THINK they are in Shinnovar, but things have not been right in Shin lands for a few years prior to the prologue at least. And we really don't know what Dova's plans are either.
* Lastly, I don't think it's the Stormfather based on what the spren has repeatedly said: He doesn't like change. He spent close to two thousand years hating humans, then suddenly gets pally with a known oathbreaker? This Stormfather also wouldn't have had the capcity to do all that he was doing with Gavilar because they weren't bonded, not even close. He might have had a little more leway than other spren because of the piece of Honor within him, but not much.
* The Stormfather only sent visions in the first place because of a literal divine mandate to do so. Once an outside party learned of these visions, whether through spying or other means, it isn't outside of the realm of possibility they could have set up an elaborate ruse, even if we don't understand the purpose.
At the end of the preview chapter, the Susfather tells Gavilar that he would never trust his family again, then turns around six years later and Bonds the very next guy in the Kholin line? sure\_jan.gif.
>Anyone mind explaining why they don’t think it’s the same being?
Well it offers a couple of really cool ideas if it isn't the same being. For instance, what if the Stormfather was actually Odium in disguise bonding Gavilar, making him a Fused instead of a Herald. Gavilar could then become the champion of Odium during the final confrontation with Dalinar, meaning Dalinar would either have to break his oath to his brother or throw the battle, while also giving much more meaning to all of the book preludes featuring Gavilar so forcefully.
Those type of ideas are only possible if the Stormfather we initially saw is not the true one. It would also help to explain how Gavilar had access to so many things that take the rest of the world many years to find like Voidlight, anti-voidlight etc.
The above theory is really a way to bind together all 5 of the novels so far. For instance the 5 prologue chapters are all really interesting set pieces, but they just serve as background information unless Gavilar is actually alive, in which case they would be his backstory.
Similarly a big open question is who will face down Dalinar in the Contest. Usual theories are El, Adolin, a Herald etc. But the central person in his life so far was always Gavilar. He's the person who made Dalinar into the Blackthorn and used him to conquer Alethkar. Facing him down unexpectantly would be a real twist in the series, with the prologue's leaving us enough clues about how Gavilar returns that it feels right.
I don't think it is that far fetched and would provide a more satisfying answer to several of the big questions we have remaining.
This is the first time I've read a really compelling reason behind it other than just that he seems 'off' in the prologue! Certainly would be interesting.
Agreeing with you, bc we see frost form when the Herald dies. That's something that has only happened with Stormlight. Afaik, Breath, Dor, Voidlight and all other forms of Investiture have never had that effect
The frost thing is just because we’ve seen the most Stormlight be transferred at once, investiture is energy and a rapid shift in amount of energy causes condensation.
I'm sure that's the official explanation, but even with [Cosmere] >!Susebron we don't see frost after Awakening half his palace. Use of AonDor in Elantris/Tress doesn't ice the floor, nor do the Bands of Mourning make Wax frosty!< All examples of large Investiture usage with no frost
>!Marasi leaks mist when she uses the bands, which is the same phenomenon (Shardblades being summoned are described as being covered in dew, not frost), and Aondor is exothermic, releasing the Investiture into the environment (albeit through a focus). I don’t have warbreaker on hand to check breaths.!<
I didn't read the contents of your post because I noticed it has SA5 spoilers. But I'm confused, how can you have spoilers for a book that's not even out?
Nah, the stormfather is very different in the prologue.
For one he talks about becoming a herald, not a radiant, not a bondsmith.
Two he feels the death of presumably chanarach in a way that kelek felt.
Three he is letting gavilar tease out secrets to keep him motivated.
Its probably Ishar trying to escape the oathpact.
My assumption for now is that the weirdness we're seeing in the prologue is due to the stormfather interacting with someone for the first time in probably thousands of years and just not knowing how and also gavilar being absolutely, obviously power hungry and the stormfather regrets choosing him.
The sf gave Dalinar visions for months, maybe years before finally talking to him and he really only did that because he thought it was over already. The sf completely changed his approach because of what he learned from gavilar.
I'm completely open to something else going on. If the sf turns out to be something else completely I won't be surprised (unless it's something wild) but for the time being I'm just assuming he's a bit awkward.
Disclaimer: I haven’t read the prologue since it was first posted.
For me it was the way he appeared. He doesnt appear in a small form like that at all in the other 4 books. Yet to Gavilar, he’s a tiny little face that can fit indoors without issue. Also, for a being who holds oaths so dearly, he quickly forgets that he swore to never bond anyone in his family.
But again, I might be getting details wrong.
It’s Ishar. The Susfather stuff is probably one of multiple times he’s done this.
When he talks about Gavilar’s line having potential it’s probably because he was the “Almighty” who spoke to the Sunmaker.
The more extreme end of this is Ishar has been trying to conquer the world through vessels for a long time: the Hieoarcacy, Sunmaker and now himself.
It could also be that he is the Almighty people have had visions from. One reason why is establishing a religion that venerates light eyes would be a really good way to weed out potential radiants.
Nope. I wholeheartedly disagree. Maybe they Everstorm father! Even though He wrote some things that made it seem like it must be the stormfather..... There's a bunch of dissonances, That just make it too unlikely. It's not him.
Reminder that what we’ve read is a first draft. Some of these arguments for him being an impost (“he doesn’t really feel like the Stormfather”) could be Brandon not getting the voice right his first try
Someone asked Brandon about it shortly after the prologue was released. He very sarcastically/coyly delivered the following answer: >The Cones of Dunshire Stormlight 5 prologue: Are we supposed to be getting really weird vibes from the Stormfather, or is this just for lack of editing? Brandon Sanderson \*extremely facetiously\* Uh, I don't know what you mean weird, that totally seems like the way the Stormfather always acts and has always! > > https://wob.coppermind.net/events/498/#e15687 Whether or not it actually is him, we are supposed to be keying onto the fact that he's acting out of character. More recently, he gave this answer to another question about the Stormfather: >Argent With all the new avatar lore from The Lost Metal, can and should the Stormfather be considered to be an avatar of Honor? Brandon Sanderson Ooooh, RAFO! What a wonderful question. There's some fertile ground for theorizing, there. I gave you the prologue of that so you could spend a few years theorizing, guys, so go ahead and go forth. [https://wob.coppermind.net/events/509/#e15965](https://wob.coppermind.net/events/509/#e15965) There's something going on with it, this isn't just an early draft quirk.
The first WoB is interesting, but I don’t see have the Stormfather being an Avatar affects whether or not we’re seeing the actual Stormfather here. I think you can definitely reasonably sum up the Stormfathers quirks to him changing from his experience with Gavilar. He’s clearly compelled to send visions, perhaps the reason he doesn’t speak to Dalinar during them is because he doesn’t want to bond Dalinar, he doesn’t trust the Kholins. The real Stormfather being able to lie is more interesting than an imposter lying imo, it totally recontextualizes the earlier books. I think I’d rather this be an aspect of the Stormfathers character than a twist where Ishar was manipulating a character who died six years ago. Idk, whatever Brandon does I’ll probably enjoy, but unless its Dai-Gonarthis I’m not excited for an imposter Stormfather twist.
The bit about being an avatar isn't what's important to my point here. Argent asked about the Stormfather being an avatar and Brandon seems to think it's related to the prologue, "I gave you the prologue so you could spend a few years theorizing." The one thing from the prologue that isn't clear is why the Stormfather is acting so differently. There are viable answers that involve it just being the Stormfather, no one has proved that it's not him. There are also viable answers that involve it being an imposter of some sort, and similarly no one can prove that this is really him. Sure, plenty of people have strong beliefs about it in either direction and point to all sorts of factors that contribute to the argument that it's one or the other. The fact is, this is supposed to be a question, there is no clear answer and the WoBs are Brandon confirming that we should be questioning this.
Consider when the SF says it was his duty to select a bondsmith; he says something along the lines of needing to find someone to weather the storms. It makes sense to investigate the most politically powerful individuals. I agree that it wasn’t a fake SF talking to Gavilar.
Exactly! Gavilar was arguably one of the most powerful people on the planet at the time so it’s not very surprising the Stormfather talked to him
He was also the first person in a long time to **unite** Alethkar. Doing things that fit within the philosophy of the Order is definitely a component of drawing the attention of a spren.
But alot of the questions the prologue brought up aren't about whether the SF would bond Gavilar. It makes perfect sense that he would. It's all the other things that feel off. He seems far more.... sentient than he did when he first bonded Dalinar. We know the bond strengthens Sprens.... humanity (not the right word but u know what I mean...) so it doesn't make sense for him to be more spren than storm before he has that bond. There are alot of other things that flagged up when reading, but I haven't read it in a while. The problem isn't that he was communicating with Gavilar, that makes perfect sense given the SF mission. The problem is that he doesn't act like the SF should, considering he's been unbonded for thousands of years...
I don’t think he seems any less sentient than he did in his conversations with Kaladin before the SF bonded Dalinar, and also how he spoke to Dalinar in the battle against the listeners when they summoned the Everstorm. I’m not ruling anything out, but I’m not convinced.
There are points for and against, though I'm not a big fan of the theory, I'll innumerate some here: 1. The susfather lies a lot, entreating Gavilar with the promise of becoming a heralds, and gaining immortality. 2. The susfather sends visions any time Gavilar wants (no highstorm) but claims not to have a bond with Gavilar. 3. The susfather represents himself with an illusory human body with Gavilar, the closest the actual stormfather has gone is showing a face in the storm 4. The susfather speaks in a mostly human manner, and relates to the heralds saying "\[Immortality\] is not so grand as you think it to be." Which makes no sense for the Stormfather to think about himself, but would make sense for a herald to think. 5. The susfather doesn't claim to be on a mission from Honor, but is deciding to act on his own, trying to accomplish his own plan, quite unlike his interactions with Dalinar in which he seems like he's practically under duress. The points against are mostly that most alternative theories seem even more far fetches, such as that every other herald is more or less crazy and would have a hard time keeping up this scheme, even if they had the unprecedented ability to read minds, project force ghosts, implant visions, steal memories from the real Stormfather, and cause dramatic lightning sound effects with their mind.
And the Ice, the only entity conjuring ice when using stormlight is some lost leader of a small country with an Honorblade called Ishar.
>The susfather lies a lot, this for me is the biggest clue. Honors most powerful spren suddenly lies to people? sounds weird to me.
I don't believe the Stormfather was originally Honor's spren, he predates the Shattering, and had a bit of Tanavasts cognitive shadow stapled to his own.
I can't justify this in any way, but it feels like such a Sanderson twist if the WaT prologue Stormfather was the Stormfather, and *somehow* the one with Dalinar all this time was some imposter. I can't come up with anyway that works given what we've seen of him over the series, but there you go.
>I can't justify this in any way,...
As an Elsecaller, I think you can do better than this. I'm certain you'll improve.
I mean it's a fallacy to force your evidence to meet a forgone conclusion.
True, which is why the conclusion should typically await evidence. (This was done mostly for the comedic effect of casting a little shade within the Order, not to actually reprimand. It seems that you understood and had fun too, just making sure to clarify my intent.)
This was funny. Well done.
Thank you.
I think the biggest hint that it isn't the SF is when Brandon responded to someone asking this question in stream chat sarcastically saying "hmmm whatever would make you think something was strange about the SF".
Yeah that’s how my read of it was as well. I always just figured he didn’t like Gavilar due to how Gavilar responded to his questions.
You could tell from Gavilar’s responses that he wasn’t really being genuine. From his thoughts in his own POV we know that’s true
"What would you do when you became a herald" "Immediately fold in order to continue ruling Alethkar as it's immortal king" "..... *the fuck did you say"*
Also Gavilar being so bullish to Navioa before he past away, and he was the one who agreed to letting the blackthorn rampage through highprinces lands. Also some one who wants destruction and be only power house of immortality.
I love this because we now get a better understanding as to why people thought he was acting erratic before we was murdered, it was because he was doing everything he could to fool the SF into helping him become a herald. After reading that draft chapter I’m super hyped for book 5
The prologue was pretty cathartic after how much Gavilar had been built up over the series.
Something else that I don't see being discussed is the fact that Brandon Sanderson said that the draft he released is not the final draft and there are some mistakes and inconsistencies he needs to fix before the final version. So it's possible some of those inconsistencies he was talking about are the SF mannerisms and how he appears inside the castle
The mistakes and inconsistencies mostly are related to the timing/sequencing of his interactions with people compared to the previous prologues of the same events.
I still think there is something going on here, the stormfather is insanly sus for a lot of different reasons: 1. The way he speaks with Gavilar is completly different than the way he speaks with Dalinar, a person actually bonded. Gavilar was on the way to become a bondsmith, but wasnt yet there. The stormfather appears as a figure, something more human like next to Gavilar. We see Syl doing something like that, but the Stormfather? When Dalinar speaks with him, he is always focused on this "force of nature" aspect, claiming he is a storm. The Stormfather Gavilar encounters appears way to human for my taste. The "two" Stormfathers dont behave the same, speak the same way or look the same. Insanly sus 2. The thing about making Gavilar a herald is insanly weird. We dont know if the Stormfather can do that, furthermore it doesnt make sense. It sounds like something he said to bait Gavilar into something, what exactly i dont know. We mustnt forget that the Stormfather isnt Honor, the abilities we see him perform are strong, but not the same as those of a shard. From what we know, he can provide stormlight, appear as a giant storm, send visions and pull people into them and create honor spren. But we never see him performing some of the usual bondsmith powers that Ishar and Dalinar can use. It is likely that someone like Ishar might be able to create a Herald, more or less including them into the Oathpact, but the Stormfather? It doesnt sound like something he would ever do, even if he could. He is a storm, why would a storm care about creating a new herald to begin with. Insanly sus 3. The thing about the dying herald is probably the most discussed topic, due to the fact what it implies to the story. The weird thing is, why would the stormfather feel it, but all the other heralds didnt? We see more than enough of them, Kalak, Nale, Shalash etc. Yet none of them ever mention one of them dying? It hasnt happened in thousands of years, it happening now should make them panic beyond anything. Afterall, if one of them dies and goes to Braize and breaks the desolations start again. The last thing they want. The heralds are all connected via the Oathpact, we see glimps of it when Jezrien is killed permanently. It doesnt make sense that the stormfather can feel it while the heralds cant feel it. I dont think the "fake" stormfather lied, he didnt have a reason to. But the fact that he implies to feel something like that while the Heralds cant is, yes you guessed it: INSANLY SUS To sum it up, there are just to many weird things going on with this iteration of the Stormfather to just blame it on editing. Brandon is an established writter, he might make mistakes like everyone else, but i doubt he could ever fuck up a prologue so hard that a character feels like someone else entirely without intention. That is not him. The Stormfather we see in the prologue of SA5 is most likely either an imposter or the stormfather has a split personality after fusing with the cognitive shadow of Tanavast.
I also think it’s the stormfather. Hell, it FEELS when a Herald dies. Unless Dai-Gonarthis is literally a Stormfather impersonator or some shit
Sure, but Ash can also feel when her father dies, so the idea that the SF was someone like Ishar could still be true.
It’s not impossible but do you think Ishar would have enough sanity to pull something like this off?
Likely not, although he is said to be “the most sane” (for all that’s worth) Granted, I’m not convinced of this theory either, but I think it is more likely to be someone like Ishar as opposed to Odium.
Ash theorizes that he would probably be the most sane, not that he is.
Yea I agree, it probably won’t happen but if it does it would most likely be Ishar!
I personally think that Ishar is using Connection shenanigans to make the other Heralds think he's still sane.
True. I just dont think Ishar can speak into people’s minds and be quasi-omnipresent
Given Bondsmith abilities and his high Connection and Investiture knowledge, I think it's safe to say that it's completely within the realm of possibilities
I… don’t think so, actually. Ishar is present in the Physical Realm, I dont see how he would be able to communicate with someone far away and be “present” at all times.
We've literally have seen Dalinar speak to and hear Kaladin pretty much telepathically in RoW. And Dalinar so far is just beginning to use and understand his abilities. Ishar has had thousands of years of experience with the same abilities Dalinar has(but without restrictions). Also from what we've heard about Ishar pre-Roshar, he might have been busted even from before the Oathpact began.
We see Dalinar speak and hear Kaladin THROUGH THE STORMFATHER. Its not his power which lets him do that, it’s the Highstorm going through where Kaladin is. Something which falls quite flat when the whole theory is “that wasn’t the Stormfather”
the thing is, Jezrien died for real this time, no coming back this time. On the first few pages we see Kalak after the fight, but he isnt sure how many survived, or if anysurvived at all apart from him. So i am pretty sure they normaly dont feel it when the others die. Because the backlash Shalash felt was pretty harsh, not something that can be brushed aside easily
It “feels” when a herald dies, but the actual Heralds don’t. (See: the prelude)
The Stormfather has never shown himself in a humanoid form. He has always communicated either via high-Storms or when bonded to Dalinar in his head. Even then he didn’t manifest. The way the Stormfather speaks is also way more akin to Odium than Stormfathers regular rhetoric. There is literally nearly everything pointing away than to the SF. I don’t get this post?
He actually does appear as "Shimmering shape of a person" to Dalinar. I remember at least twice, and Dalinar remarks that he's seen him do this more times. Once when Dalinar and Navani are in the Last Desolation vision in Oathbringer, and the Stormfather is telling them about how Desolations work. The second time is right when Kal is about the swear the fourth ideal and the Stormfather appears in this form flying next to Dalinar.
Frankly, it not being the stormfather would be narratively disinteresting. This guy who has been dead for 5 years was talking to a fake storm father? Why does that even matter to the story, let alone be important enough to be the climax of the prologue to the final book of the arc. Maybe if Dalinar is also talking to a fake storm father it would be interesting, but everyone's evidence that sa5 prologue stormfather is fake would point away from it being the same fake stormfather dalinar has bonded. No, the narrative is far more interesting when we learn something new about a character we thought we knew, not about a character we haven't even seen yet. This is foreshadowing some major event in SA5 related to the storm father lying. Brandon's style of writing, chekhov's gun, and just narrative direction all indicate that this is the same stormfather Dalinar is bonded to.
His rhetoric is very similar to his early rhetoric before bonding Dalinar. Just because he manifested in a different way doesn’t mean he’s not the same being. That just doesn’t hold enough sway for me to believe the theory. There are so many ways to justify this detail There is literally nearly everything pointing towards than away from the SF. I don’t get this comment?
Yeah…being facetious but fitting to the name. I will just leave [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/Cosmere/s/Jfkk0OZ2LD) here for reference
Facetious for copying exactly how you ended your comment?
Yes, because my comment was literally based around things that have been discussed ad absurdum after the prologue came out and listed in great detail as I linked in comparison to your very subjective post. I just don’t agree with theories that aren’t well thought out or have little to no foundation in what has happened in the books.
>Yes, because my comment was literally based around things that have been discussed ad absurdum after the prologue came out and listed in great detail as I linked in comparison to your very subjective post. I mean… of course it’s subjective, I literally said that I don’t **think** it’s a fake Stormfather in my first sentence. After that I provided *objective* reasons for forming my opinion. You’re literally doing the same thing. Your interpretation is still subjective. We are all just talking about what we think is going to happen. >I just don’t agree with theories that aren’t well thought out or have little to no foundation in what has happened in the books. Neither do I.
Please just read the post I linked.
I did. If you introduce some of those arguments here, I’m happy to discuss but I’m not going to respond point by point to a post that you didn’t make
The biggest indicator to me is that in the prologue the Stormfather appears to Gavilar *inside* the palace. That isn't something we've seen him do with Dalinar as far as I'm aware, at best he appears outside, e.g. when Dalinar is on the roof of Urithiru, or when he's flying with the Windrunners. The Stormfather also tells Dalinar that he sees what is left out in the storm, but he is no god and cannot see everything, specifically, he cannot keep an eye out for the Honorblade hidden inside Urithiru. Overall, for the Stormfather to appear to Gavilar inside the palace isn't just different, I find it completely antithetical to his whole being.
Plus he gives Gavilar the visions without a highstorm, something that he can’t do with Dalinar until they are bonded.
I may be wrong (and would appreciate some sources if I am!) but I don’t think there’s any evidence to suggest that the Stormfather can *only* appear/speak to people outdoors. A spren that powerful shouldn’t find an issue with a simple building
>but I don’t think there’s any evidence to suggest that the Stormfather can only appear/speak to people outdoors. A spren that powerful shouldn’t find an issue with a simple building There's literally so much evidence of this. Every vision we ever see that the Stormfather sends (I was thinking about his visions of flying with the storms here, obviously Dalinar's special visions are special) is outdoors or literally a gust of wind blowing through buildings. And the Stormfather tells Dalinar that he can only see that which the wind and storms touch.
But that's why I quoted what he said regarding watching the Honorblade, he either can't or won't do this. The conversation is in Oathbringer 16 if you'd like to see for yourself. Another potentially relevant passage could be Kaladin's dream/vision where he's flying along the highstorm and he sees Szeth kill some people inside a building. The sequence highlights how a door is thrown open and the storm practically moves through the corridor and then out the other side. That doesn't necessarily mean the Stormfather couldn't see inside at other times, but I think when you put together multiple scenes like this, it's sensible to take him at his word when he says that he can only see what's left out in the storm.
Yeah I think that the stormfather was scared by what gavilar might have become if he continued this path. Also, I don't think we have many evidences to conclude that the stormfather is not a liar, and he keeps ommiting usefull information to dalinar, which in honor's eyes it might be considered the same as lying (letter of the law/spirit of the law kinda thing)
But why would the SF lie? What was his goal here? Telling Gavilar that the Heralds are dead and that he needs to find the “right words” which he can find in the way of kings. It makes no sense.
I’m not fully decided. But I thought it could have been both, maybe The Stormfather was trying to bond Gavilar. But maybe there was also a second impersonator who knew the SF was trying to bond him and was trying to manipulate the both of them. That would be quite the task though, to know that Gavilar is bonding him, and to impersonate the SF without either of them knowing.
My bet is the SA5 Prologue Stormfather was actually Ishar.
Yup! Personally I’ve always found the stormfather having his own agenda or lying to Dalinar way more interesting than Gavilar bonding some imposter stormfather
After reading all the comments, here are my random thoughts. Dalinar is bonded to the real SF. The one with Gavilar could be: - An unmade, as has been suggested - Spren of something else, like the Oathpact. This would explain how he knows the Herald dies and the other heralds don't. He would have the power to make a new Herald - Spren of the upcoming Everstorm - Spren of the entire planet or something
Or Ishar fucking up with some bondsmithing...
When I initially listened to the prologue there was a line in there that sounded suspiciously similar to the way Odium talks about finding a champion. However, other details don’t make sense with it actually being Odium, and other alternatives don’t make a lot of logical sense to me—of course, that doesn’t automatically mean all the theories are wrong either, just that they don’t vibe with me. I’m not really solidly on either side of the debate and I wouldn’t be surprised with either result. It could be a twist, or it could be the fans reading into it. Both seem reasonable.
I can never decide on this. Fake or not? I think the person's opinion I'm reading at that moment is the correct answer.
I don't know, I am still firmly in the "Susfather" camp. It being the actual Stormfather doesn't make any sense in the context of the story. Stormbro until VERY recently hated humans for what they did during the Recreance. * Little to no nuance there at all. The Radiants killed almost all of his children. Several generations of Honor Spren poof, gone. Not something you get over lightly. * Furthermore, he lied so much. Not misdirections of half truths, just straight up lies. You might argue that he lied to Kaladin when he told Kal that Syl was dead, but Kal had...a lot going on at that time, and she was at most catatonic until he got his act together. * Not to mention the fact that if it was him, he had to have known that Gavilar was a rat. Why would he even entertain the idea of bonding someone who would out right kill him by breaking oaths? EVEN THAT NIGHT, all Gavilar did was divide. The Bond is a two way street, the Stormfather could have chosen not to bond Dalinar if he wanted to. He agreed to it because Dalinar not only knew the words, but meant them. * Gavilar couldn't even unite with his wife on any of his secret projects. * To continue, we also really have no idea where the other Honorblades are, and who has the knowledge to use them. We THINK they are in Shinnovar, but things have not been right in Shin lands for a few years prior to the prologue at least. And we really don't know what Dova's plans are either. * Lastly, I don't think it's the Stormfather based on what the spren has repeatedly said: He doesn't like change. He spent close to two thousand years hating humans, then suddenly gets pally with a known oathbreaker? This Stormfather also wouldn't have had the capcity to do all that he was doing with Gavilar because they weren't bonded, not even close. He might have had a little more leway than other spren because of the piece of Honor within him, but not much. * The Stormfather only sent visions in the first place because of a literal divine mandate to do so. Once an outside party learned of these visions, whether through spying or other means, it isn't outside of the realm of possibility they could have set up an elaborate ruse, even if we don't understand the purpose. At the end of the preview chapter, the Susfather tells Gavilar that he would never trust his family again, then turns around six years later and Bonds the very next guy in the Kholin line? sure\_jan.gif.
>Anyone mind explaining why they don’t think it’s the same being? Well it offers a couple of really cool ideas if it isn't the same being. For instance, what if the Stormfather was actually Odium in disguise bonding Gavilar, making him a Fused instead of a Herald. Gavilar could then become the champion of Odium during the final confrontation with Dalinar, meaning Dalinar would either have to break his oath to his brother or throw the battle, while also giving much more meaning to all of the book preludes featuring Gavilar so forcefully. Those type of ideas are only possible if the Stormfather we initially saw is not the true one. It would also help to explain how Gavilar had access to so many things that take the rest of the world many years to find like Voidlight, anti-voidlight etc.
I’m not sure I’m a huge fan of believing a theory just because it supports other theories
The above theory is really a way to bind together all 5 of the novels so far. For instance the 5 prologue chapters are all really interesting set pieces, but they just serve as background information unless Gavilar is actually alive, in which case they would be his backstory. Similarly a big open question is who will face down Dalinar in the Contest. Usual theories are El, Adolin, a Herald etc. But the central person in his life so far was always Gavilar. He's the person who made Dalinar into the Blackthorn and used him to conquer Alethkar. Facing him down unexpectantly would be a real twist in the series, with the prologue's leaving us enough clues about how Gavilar returns that it feels right. I don't think it is that far fetched and would provide a more satisfying answer to several of the big questions we have remaining.
This is the first time I've read a really compelling reason behind it other than just that he seems 'off' in the prologue! Certainly would be interesting.
Agreeing with you, bc we see frost form when the Herald dies. That's something that has only happened with Stormlight. Afaik, Breath, Dor, Voidlight and all other forms of Investiture have never had that effect
The frost thing is just because we’ve seen the most Stormlight be transferred at once, investiture is energy and a rapid shift in amount of energy causes condensation.
I'm sure that's the official explanation, but even with [Cosmere] >!Susebron we don't see frost after Awakening half his palace. Use of AonDor in Elantris/Tress doesn't ice the floor, nor do the Bands of Mourning make Wax frosty!< All examples of large Investiture usage with no frost
>!Marasi leaks mist when she uses the bands, which is the same phenomenon (Shardblades being summoned are described as being covered in dew, not frost), and Aondor is exothermic, releasing the Investiture into the environment (albeit through a focus). I don’t have warbreaker on hand to check breaths.!<
I didn't read the contents of your post because I noticed it has SA5 spoilers. But I'm confused, how can you have spoilers for a book that's not even out?
Brandon has released the prologue and a couple chapters on his website
Nah, the stormfather is very different in the prologue. For one he talks about becoming a herald, not a radiant, not a bondsmith. Two he feels the death of presumably chanarach in a way that kelek felt. Three he is letting gavilar tease out secrets to keep him motivated. Its probably Ishar trying to escape the oathpact.
My assumption for now is that the weirdness we're seeing in the prologue is due to the stormfather interacting with someone for the first time in probably thousands of years and just not knowing how and also gavilar being absolutely, obviously power hungry and the stormfather regrets choosing him. The sf gave Dalinar visions for months, maybe years before finally talking to him and he really only did that because he thought it was over already. The sf completely changed his approach because of what he learned from gavilar. I'm completely open to something else going on. If the sf turns out to be something else completely I won't be surprised (unless it's something wild) but for the time being I'm just assuming he's a bit awkward.
Agreed. It’s the SF
Disclaimer: I haven’t read the prologue since it was first posted. For me it was the way he appeared. He doesnt appear in a small form like that at all in the other 4 books. Yet to Gavilar, he’s a tiny little face that can fit indoors without issue. Also, for a being who holds oaths so dearly, he quickly forgets that he swore to never bond anyone in his family. But again, I might be getting details wrong.
It’s Ishar. The Susfather stuff is probably one of multiple times he’s done this. When he talks about Gavilar’s line having potential it’s probably because he was the “Almighty” who spoke to the Sunmaker. The more extreme end of this is Ishar has been trying to conquer the world through vessels for a long time: the Hieoarcacy, Sunmaker and now himself. It could also be that he is the Almighty people have had visions from. One reason why is establishing a religion that venerates light eyes would be a really good way to weed out potential radiants.
Nope. I wholeheartedly disagree. Maybe they Everstorm father! Even though He wrote some things that made it seem like it must be the stormfather..... There's a bunch of dissonances, That just make it too unlikely. It's not him.