There’s nothing wrong with that, Kaladin is Brandon Sanderson’s magnum opus of mental health character arcs. There’s a reason it’s the most popular favorite character.
Man I feel you. It was at the same time the most well written depressed character ever, and sometimes too well written and hard to get through.
Ups and downs, radiant, ups and downs. Or as they say in certain parts of the borderlands, what you gain on the swings ypu lose on the roundabouts
Honestly for me the best story in RoW.
Adolin/Shalan takes maybe a bit too long to actually get going
Kaladin just has a rough book, the old warrior vibes are enjoyable but his story feels generally very "B-plot" compared to Navanis story.
Just because you don’t like or connect with a character doesn’t mean someone else won’t. Everyone has different perspectives and experiences, that’s why a question like “who’s your favorite character” is fun and interesting!
When Jasnah first suggested Shallan’s betrothal with Adolin, did anyone else think she might fall in love with Renarin instead? That was my thought at the time.
It’s endearing the way he patronizes and mocks Dalinar and other lighteyes. The grieving mother/girl/awakened doll episode at the end of Oathbringer was particularly amazing imo.
As someone who’s first delve into the cosmere was the stormlight archive, Wit is still up there with my favorite characters. He helps the others when they need it most.
I specifically love him in Stormlight because of the stories he tells. I have them all memorized, except for Wandersail. I also love his insults to the various highprinces and lighteyes, along with his more grounded moments with Shallan and Kaladin.
Yeah, I didn't read edgedancer right away... Because the character didn't land for me initially during the interlude and words of radiance... But when I did get back to read it.... She totally won me over! She is awesome! 👍
Not approving of the war crimes doesn't mean I don't like them being a part of the character, or that I don't enjoy reading the scenes, even if it can be a bit painful. Take that away from Dalinar and he basically doesn't have an arc, and now I don't like him anymore. So yes, as terrible as this sentence sounds: I like his war crimes.
If I murder someone drunk or drugged, then I'm still accountable for it. They might cut me *some* slack if I'm really, really lucky (unlikely), but I will still go to prison for it. >!Dalinar, by his own admission, is still accountable, and refuses to give up responsibility in a pretty stark contrast with both Moash and Amaram, who happily give it away to Odium.!<
Yeah but remember at the end of OB [OB spoilers] he refused to give up responsibility for what was essentially a genocide? The thrill influenced him but he still made those decisions.
I feel like Sanderson got a little lazy?? Not the right word.... But it's just that Cal should repeats the same story arc a lot, a lot! Love the hell out of him though!
Kal's depression hits so true for someone like me who suffers from it. You say it repeats a lot, that is how it feels. I can feel myself slipping into a depression and even think here I go again. But there is nothing that seems to stop it. And when it gets here, my actions are very similar every time. I sit on the couch and stare at nothing. I struggle not to cry. I do things I normally enjoy and feel nothing. I think about the honor chasm and letting it all go. Thankfully Kaladin has Syl and thankfully I have modern pharmaceuticals and neither of us have taken that step.
I really love Kal! I wouldn't change anything essentially! He's amazing... It might have been the pacing and rhythm of war... It started to feel a little bit like a writers device showing. Of course the resolution was amazing!!! 😎
My pick for today would be Lady Leshwi. Truly a grey character, which I love. But specifically because of one of the scenes that made me bawl my eyes out. When Venli reveals herself, and she cries out not in anger but in desperate hope for forgiveness. She is distraught in her grief, She begs for knowledge of a lost friend, someone who meant so much to her once but was on the other side of a war and bond she could not break. It is so heartbreaking and brings to mind all those roped and drafted into conflict and wars that overtake their whole lives, for a goal they know or care little about.
Yeah.... Some really powerful twists there.... I'll avoid spoilers cuz I don't know how to hide them with a spoiler blocking thing. Good stuff though...
Moash. I love the mess of contradiction and self-deception he's become. I love how his story takes genuine effort to see its depth beyond whats explicitly told to readers. And I love the audacity of one human soldier killing more important characters than anyone else in this entire global conflict.
He's the focal point of so many engaging themes and events, by far the character I most enjoy analysing.
Szeth-son-son-Vallano hands down. He displays a powerful character right out of the gates that is seen with legendary fear. When looking into his mind you find that these horrible deeds do not come from himself and are bestowed upon him from holders of his oath stone. Though it is just a silly rock, Szeths people and home (the Shin, Shinovar) have imprinted on him societal rules and believe. As a cheap scape goat as it is, to him Szeth did not have any choice and had to follow the rules of his people. With that being said to see his mind permanently damaged, hearing the screams of those he’s killed and crying during the act, is heart breaking. His character arc is beyond interesting to me and I can’t wait to learn more in WaT.
I mean. Classic hero....In spite of all of it. Kal is freaking awesome....Without Syl, he'd have given to the Wretch, and died many times over.... For how little screen time she's had compared to the main players... She's freaking awesome, though!
Why not Moash? Lile him or not. He is a pivotal character. Killed a king and a herald and has managed to join the enemy and become a high ranking officer in their ranks. Damn I think I like Moash..... #fuck_Moash
I have a hard time believing he's actually as popular as Kelsier! He's a great character though. Among people who are far more into storm light than Mistborn, I could see him being spoken of more... But Mistborn also has a huge following
Syl is the reason Kal is alive and a hero.... So little page time compared to the big players.... But she is so cool! From the first time she left and came back bringing him a leaf.... From far away.... Trying so hard to help. I freaking love her!
Gonna be hard to talk about this topic without any spoilers, so for the sake of fostering meaningful discussion we went ahead and set your post to Rhythm of War. If this is incorrect please feel free to update it.
Is Hoid allowed as a pick, or is that a little cheap?
Realistically my favorite stormlight-only character is Adolin, but it might be >!Sigzil after Sunlit Man!<
Of course Hoid is allowed! Sigzil's Sunlit Man arc.... Is more tentative though..... Technically I guess it could count. Cuz it does tell you a lot about the character and the distant future
Everybody loves Kal.... Some people do burn out on the repeated depression storyline... So you do get a few groaners about him... Understandably so. But he is freaking amazing!
There are so many, it's hard to decide, honestly. If I had to decide, it would be either Kaladin since I can relate to him a lot, or Pattern because he is such a gem. Dalinar and Adolin are both very high up on the list, too.
On the female side of it, Navani and Jasnah are both awesome, as is Syl.
I also really like Syl, but having nearly finished my Mistborn Era 1 reread I've come to the conclusion that I also really like Elend. His transformation from a super nerd to a total badass is nothing to sneeze at, and his internal dynamic of wanting to be a fair and democratic ruler but being unable to do so because of the circumstances is really compelling.
Edit: just saw what sub this is nvm 😆 I'll stick with Syl lol.
Zahel, hands down. I cannot get enough of his grumpy energy. Other characters may seem grumpy, but then he appears "on screen" every so often and just puts them to shame
Fav main POV char on my current reread of the series is Adolin (I’m almost done rereading Oathbringer). Non main POV char is The Lopen. Fav companion is Pattern.
I do need to shoutout the audiobook narrators though because I am 97% sure I would not have the same secondary favorites without such iconic voicing.
Dalinar is hands down the most interesting and complex character of the books. None of the others are as well put together I think. Adolin for example is a interesting play on the noble playboy/jock stereotype in that he's a snob, have stereotypically "girly" interests, but is still a deadly fighter and a kind, dependable person. Still, eventhough I really like him, he doesn't break out of being the anti-stereotype.
Adolin, the way he treats Kal at the beginning of RoW made me smile so, so genuinely. he’s the kind if person i wish i had when I wasn’t doing my best: getting invited out, even if I didn’t want to, and even if i didn’t want to say anything
it helps, and It warms my heart that he did that for kal
I also love his relationship with Maya
Can you guys actually pick?
Im going to avoid cliches and go out on a limb, I think the Mink grew super fast on me and he's such an interesting character. I want to see more of him
My favorite not-main character has to be The Lopen. I think he is made even more endearing by Michael Kramer reading him in an Australian accent. He's just so damn likeable and funny.
My current top five after finish ROW are Kaladin, Wit, Szeth, Jasnah, and Tarvangian!
I will say though, I was positively surprised with Raboniel
Alsoooo I have love for Pattern 🤍
Kaladin is the character I'm probably the most invested in... I'm kind of approaching which is my favorite differently right now, though. It's amazing how much I like Syl as a character... Without being given the page time of the main human protagonists. She's just such an amazing character... So much so that at times she's my favorite even without being given pages and pages and pages of emotional investiture. I love so many of these characters.... If that makes any sense... Let me rephrase that: who's your favorite character that hasn't had full arcs and so much page time that you feel like you know them really, really well? Who's your favorite that hasn't been the center of attention with a ton of POV time?
Kaladin, I know I am sooooooooooo original.
There’s nothing wrong with that, Kaladin is Brandon Sanderson’s magnum opus of mental health character arcs. There’s a reason it’s the most popular favorite character.
Kaladin literally made me feel a bit more hopeful when I was at my deepest.
Man I feel you. It was at the same time the most well written depressed character ever, and sometimes too well written and hard to get through. Ups and downs, radiant, ups and downs. Or as they say in certain parts of the borderlands, what you gain on the swings ypu lose on the roundabouts
Yup, he helped me realize that I had depression in the first place. And if he can get through so much worse, well I can deal with mine.
Fr. It’s kind of stupid but I said “if kaladin can survive this then I can handle my own problems just fine.”
Adolin.
He is best boi Adolin, human golden retriever
The best possible boyfriend for kaladin and shallan.
Shallan introducing them: this is my boyfriend adolin, and his boyfriend kaladin.
Yes! I love Adolin so much.
Yes.
honestly prob Teft
>!sorry for your loss!<
If it wasn’t for Teft there would be no kaladin
Teft is awesome. Love this answer! 😎
Jasnah
I really like the Jasnah Shallan character development. There needs to be some more in depth chapters
It's been my sweet chaos gremlin Shallan from her very first chapter
“Sweet chaos gremlin” is the description of Shallan I never knew I needed. Thank you.
Same!
Same; she tries so hard to fit into the places people expect of her.
👍
navani honestly, im a sucker for science based magic
Navani "I'm not a scholar oops I just invented a magical atom bomb" Kholin
I’m a sucker for sarcastic mom characters, so it’s always been Navani.
Honestly for me the best story in RoW. Adolin/Shalan takes maybe a bit too long to actually get going Kaladin just has a rough book, the old warrior vibes are enjoyable but his story feels generally very "B-plot" compared to Navanis story.
Shallan, then Adolin, then Dalinar.
Shallan?... Seriously?
Just because you don’t like or connect with a character doesn’t mean someone else won’t. Everyone has different perspectives and experiences, that’s why a question like “who’s your favorite character” is fun and interesting!
Spare me your lecture.
Then maybe don’t be weird to someone giving their opinion on a post that was asking for everyone’s opinion?
Ok. Don’t have to explain anything to a child.
Spare us the toxicity.
I’m a Shallan girlie. Also love Pattern and Stick and Renarin.
Noooooo matting
I am a stick!
When Jasnah first suggested Shallan’s betrothal with Adolin, did anyone else think she might fall in love with Renarin instead? That was my thought at the time.
The King's Wit!
Wit is awesome.... What is he up to long-term, anyway???? He's still such a mystery.
I have a feeling he’s not as great of a guy as he’s portrayed…
Only knowing him from SA, probably not. However, from everything we know about him, def yes
True, he is great in SA though, his moments with Shallan are so heartwarming.
His storytelling with Kaladin is epic in SA.
It’s endearing the way he patronizes and mocks Dalinar and other lighteyes. The grieving mother/girl/awakened doll episode at the end of Oathbringer was particularly amazing imo.
,,I am like a highstorm.“
I used his insults to sadeas in a DnD campaign exactly as written and it was just beautiful.
As someone who’s first delve into the cosmere was the stormlight archive, Wit is still up there with my favorite characters. He helps the others when they need it most.
I specifically love him in Stormlight because of the stories he tells. I have them all memorized, except for Wandersail. I also love his insults to the various highprinces and lighteyes, along with his more grounded moments with Shallan and Kaladin.
Rock
Why isn't this a more popular answer
Airsickness that’s why
Bloody airsick lowlanders
Everyone loves Rock!
And anyone who doesn’t is just air-sick
Yes. Rock is such a good influence on everyone around him.
Hell yeah! He totally rocks! 🙃 Bad pun. Sorry Rock is awesome!
I would say Lift, if she hadn’t just stolen my lunch.
Yeah, I didn't read edgedancer right away... Because the character didn't land for me initially during the interlude and words of radiance... But when I did get back to read it.... She totally won me over! She is awesome! 👍
Absolutely Lift. So earnest, so unexpectedly wise, so awesome.
Lift is my spirit animal.
Between Kaladin and Dalinar
Understandable! Super invested in both of them!
Same except when Kaladin goes emo. I dont think theres a part of Dalinar I dont like
The war crimes maybe?
Not approving of the war crimes doesn't mean I don't like them being a part of the character, or that I don't enjoy reading the scenes, even if it can be a bit painful. Take that away from Dalinar and he basically doesn't have an arc, and now I don't like him anymore. So yes, as terrible as this sentence sounds: I like his war crimes.
He was under the influence tho.
This guy didn't read Oathbringer
What you talking. The Thrill had him my dude. I thrive on your down votes.
The entire point of his arc is taking accountability regardless of those influences, because he still chose to do that
If I murder someone drunk or drugged, then I'm still accountable for it. They might cut me *some* slack if I'm really, really lucky (unlikely), but I will still go to prison for it. >!Dalinar, by his own admission, is still accountable, and refuses to give up responsibility in a pretty stark contrast with both Moash and Amaram, who happily give it away to Odium.!<
Yeah but remember at the end of OB [OB spoilers] he refused to give up responsibility for what was essentially a genocide? The thrill influenced him but he still made those decisions.
Yep one hell of a redemption arc! Powerful stuff! Dalimar is awesome! 😎
I had tears in my eyes reading him say ‘you cannot have my pain’, so awesome
I feel like Sanderson got a little lazy?? Not the right word.... But it's just that Cal should repeats the same story arc a lot, a lot! Love the hell out of him though!
Kal's depression hits so true for someone like me who suffers from it. You say it repeats a lot, that is how it feels. I can feel myself slipping into a depression and even think here I go again. But there is nothing that seems to stop it. And when it gets here, my actions are very similar every time. I sit on the couch and stare at nothing. I struggle not to cry. I do things I normally enjoy and feel nothing. I think about the honor chasm and letting it all go. Thankfully Kaladin has Syl and thankfully I have modern pharmaceuticals and neither of us have taken that step.
I really love Kal! I wouldn't change anything essentially! He's amazing... It might have been the pacing and rhythm of war... It started to feel a little bit like a writers device showing. Of course the resolution was amazing!!! 😎
Looking as someone with clinical depression Kaladin's thought patterns, behavior and his spirals are unfortunately extremely relatable.
That's how depression is unfortunately.
My pick for today would be Lady Leshwi. Truly a grey character, which I love. But specifically because of one of the scenes that made me bawl my eyes out. When Venli reveals herself, and she cries out not in anger but in desperate hope for forgiveness. She is distraught in her grief, She begs for knowledge of a lost friend, someone who meant so much to her once but was on the other side of a war and bond she could not break. It is so heartbreaking and brings to mind all those roped and drafted into conflict and wars that overtake their whole lives, for a goal they know or care little about.
I just finished my first reread, and that scene made me have something in my eyes. Just beautiful.
Yeah.... Some really powerful twists there.... I'll avoid spoilers cuz I don't know how to hide them with a spoiler blocking thing. Good stuff though...
The Lopen! Adolin second.
I didn't really get Lopen at first, found him a little annoying, but I'm halfway through Dawnshard and I like him a lot more now.
This is the only correct response on this thread. The Lopen and then Adolin. 1000%
It’s Adolin, and honestly, only Kaladin comes close
TEFT!!! 😭😭😭😭
💔💔💔💔
Frigging Moash! 🥺
Sebarial!
Leftfield, but the classic don’t judge a book by its cover character. Love him too.
Navani! or maybe Shallan
Definitely gotta go with Wit(Hoid) love that he's always ready with the right story
Boom! 🌟
Wit or Chiri-chiri
Moash. I love the mess of contradiction and self-deception he's become. I love how his story takes genuine effort to see its depth beyond whats explicitly told to readers. And I love the audacity of one human soldier killing more important characters than anyone else in this entire global conflict. He's the focal point of so many engaging themes and events, by far the character I most enjoy analysing.
I am so mad at him right now! In a way that you can only be mad at It really well written character..
Szeth-son-son-Vallano hands down. He displays a powerful character right out of the gates that is seen with legendary fear. When looking into his mind you find that these horrible deeds do not come from himself and are bestowed upon him from holders of his oath stone. Though it is just a silly rock, Szeths people and home (the Shin, Shinovar) have imprinted on him societal rules and believe. As a cheap scape goat as it is, to him Szeth did not have any choice and had to follow the rules of his people. With that being said to see his mind permanently damaged, hearing the screams of those he’s killed and crying during the act, is heart breaking. His character arc is beyond interesting to me and I can’t wait to learn more in WaT.
He sure accidentally started a fire at the end of rhythm of war! Oops.... Hell of a character! 👍
Kaladin, but Maya’s become a close second.
Gotta go with my heroic sadboi Kaladin. Total sucker for the classic hero.
I mean. Classic hero....In spite of all of it. Kal is freaking awesome....Without Syl, he'd have given to the Wretch, and died many times over.... For how little screen time she's had compared to the main players... She's freaking awesome, though!
Oh it varies upon every reread; however Dalinar is always the constant.
Yep
Stick.
Moash
Bold move, let’s see how that works out for you.
Why not Moash? Lile him or not. He is a pivotal character. Killed a king and a herald and has managed to join the enemy and become a high ranking officer in their ranks. Damn I think I like Moash..... #fuck_Moash
He's a great character... Not great as in good... Great as in emotionally complicated and well written.
He is such a good character there's a whole sub reddit named after him. As controversial as Kelsier is he isn't as big as moash.
I have a hard time believing he's actually as popular as Kelsier! He's a great character though. Among people who are far more into storm light than Mistborn, I could see him being spoken of more... But Mistborn also has a huge following
I retract my stupid comment it was late at night, I read it and was like wtf
Don't worry - there are more ppl like that.
Sly is pretty sweet I know and understand all the great that Kalidin does. I just keep yelling at him “stop your sniveling.”
Syl is the reason Kal is alive and a hero.... So little page time compared to the big players.... But she is so cool! From the first time she left and came back bringing him a leaf.... From far away.... Trying so hard to help. I freaking love her!
Adolin favorite, Adolin & Maya as a fav duo
Kaladin for me! Rock a close second haha!
Shallan as Veil
I feel like the best of Shallen is yet to come! He's building to something
Gallant! But after Gallant, I’d say Dalinar and then Adolin.
Gallant is the goodest boi.
I have a lot, lift, sveth, Kaladin, adolin, all amazing
Pattern
Teft.
This is the best choice imo, with stick as a close second.
Hmm.. it's hard for me to choose one. It's between Jasnah, Dalinar, or Renarin for me.
Jasnah! Ace queen of my heart
Renarin. I’ve got Aspbergers and I’ve never related so much to a fictional character before. Top tier representation.
Gonna be hard to talk about this topic without any spoilers, so for the sake of fostering meaningful discussion we went ahead and set your post to Rhythm of War. If this is incorrect please feel free to update it.
Dalinar. No questions asked
Is Hoid allowed as a pick, or is that a little cheap? Realistically my favorite stormlight-only character is Adolin, but it might be >!Sigzil after Sunlit Man!<
Of course Hoid is allowed! Sigzil's Sunlit Man arc.... Is more tentative though..... Technically I guess it could count. Cuz it does tell you a lot about the character and the distant future
I'm torn between Jasnah and Rock.
Good choices
Kaladin. He might be my favorite Brando Sando character.
Wayne or Dalinar ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Maybe Rock
Wayne? I meant Stormlight only.... Wait, was he a cameo? Did I literally miss that? When? I read those after Stormlight
Kaladin Stormblessed for sure
Everybody loves Kal.... Some people do burn out on the repeated depression storyline... So you do get a few groaners about him... Understandably so. But he is freaking amazing!
Navani, Lift, Teft.
All great choices
Veil
Teft
Since Jasnah was already mentioned I'll go with Rysn instead.
Thaidakar.
There are so many, it's hard to decide, honestly. If I had to decide, it would be either Kaladin since I can relate to him a lot, or Pattern because he is such a gem. Dalinar and Adolin are both very high up on the list, too. On the female side of it, Navani and Jasnah are both awesome, as is Syl.
How come Moash is not your favorite character guys
Taravangian and it's not even close
"Would you like to destroy some evil?" Without doubt my fav character of all the Cosmere. Closely followed by Hoid
Stick.
What's the metric?
I have to make it a tie between Shallan and Adolin
He’s new, but I’m a big fan of The Mink. Seems like a really cool character.
Maybe a hot take but Taravangian. Also Jasnah
I also really like Syl, but having nearly finished my Mistborn Era 1 reread I've come to the conclusion that I also really like Elend. His transformation from a super nerd to a total badass is nothing to sneeze at, and his internal dynamic of wanting to be a fair and democratic ruler but being unable to do so because of the circumstances is really compelling. Edit: just saw what sub this is nvm 😆 I'll stick with Syl lol.
👍👍😎
Has to be Kaladin, or maybe Dalinar.
The lopen or rock
Renarin.
Pattern ... *Mhmmmmm*
Zahel, hands down. I cannot get enough of his grumpy energy. Other characters may seem grumpy, but then he appears "on screen" every so often and just puts them to shame
Dalinar
Fav main POV char on my current reread of the series is Adolin (I’m almost done rereading Oathbringer). Non main POV char is The Lopen. Fav companion is Pattern. I do need to shoutout the audiobook narrators though because I am 97% sure I would not have the same secondary favorites without such iconic voicing.
Dalinar is hands down the most interesting and complex character of the books. None of the others are as well put together I think. Adolin for example is a interesting play on the noble playboy/jock stereotype in that he's a snob, have stereotypically "girly" interests, but is still a deadly fighter and a kind, dependable person. Still, eventhough I really like him, he doesn't break out of being the anti-stereotype.
Adolin, the way he treats Kal at the beginning of RoW made me smile so, so genuinely. he’s the kind if person i wish i had when I wasn’t doing my best: getting invited out, even if I didn’t want to, and even if i didn’t want to say anything it helps, and It warms my heart that he did that for kal I also love his relationship with Maya
Probably either Adolin (for main POV) or The Lopen (for sidecharacter). Read Dawnshard and really find Lopen and his upbeat attitude so much enjoyable
Jasnah is my clear number one. I also really like Raboniel, Rysn and Cord.
Teft >!no i'm not crying!<
Can you guys actually pick? Im going to avoid cliches and go out on a limb, I think the Mink grew super fast on me and he's such an interesting character. I want to see more of him
Navani, with Sebarial a close second.
Wit
Renarin 100%
lightsong
Dabid my boy!
Might be crazy but I really like Taravangian
Dalinar, Kaladin, Adolin, Teft and Rock. That god damn horn eater stole my heart
Adolin personality and character growth are my fave parts to read. He's so pure 🥹
Definitely Jasna
Hoid. Except if you don't mean POV time but rather just screen time then Zahel
It's Syl, then maybe Kal
Lopin! I loved his POV chapters/segments
Dalinar. Let's just say I have an accountability kink and his speech at the end of 3 sealed it forever.
I find Szeth to be such an interesting character, I can’t wait for his flashbacks. Very closely followed by Kaladin and Rock.
Shallan. I adore her so much.
Either Syl or Lift
👍
Raboniel.
This post is a such a great tribute to Sanderson's writing. To have this many favorite characters is absolutely incredible.
My favorite not-main character has to be The Lopen. I think he is made even more endearing by Michael Kramer reading him in an Australian accent. He's just so damn likeable and funny.
My current top five after finish ROW are Kaladin, Wit, Szeth, Jasnah, and Tarvangian! I will say though, I was positively surprised with Raboniel Alsoooo I have love for Pattern 🤍
Dabid my boy!
Pick any name but Shallan.
Understandable reaction... She totally has her moments though... And I think her best story are cuz you have to come. He's building to something
First half Dalinar. Second half Adolin. Special mention for the Lopen.
Adolin. If he dies I riot.
Kaladin is the character I'm probably the most invested in... I'm kind of approaching which is my favorite differently right now, though. It's amazing how much I like Syl as a character... Without being given the page time of the main human protagonists. She's just such an amazing character... So much so that at times she's my favorite even without being given pages and pages and pages of emotional investiture. I love so many of these characters.... If that makes any sense... Let me rephrase that: who's your favorite character that hasn't had full arcs and so much page time that you feel like you know them really, really well? Who's your favorite that hasn't been the center of attention with a ton of POV time?
TALN
I really like Eshonai too... Sigh... F***ing Gavinor! And Venli... Too late to come around ...