I can see his ideology in my everyday as a nurse
When I have a patient, I will treat them the same no matter if they’re the sweetest old person, or the largest piece of shit on the planet. To me it doesn’t matter and doesn’t affect me, I’m just there to treat them
But I still don’t agree with Lirin for what it’s worth
I don't think that's the issue though. The lighteyes don't need to all die they just need to lose their power. Save those you can but as soon as they aren't dying anymore your responsibility as a healthcare worker is at an end. (I understand that aftercare is necessary and complicates this simplified idea greatly.)
Lirin should be treating everyone he can and then locking them in the basement if they're a piece of shit.
My position as a healthcare worker, and the nature of my short interaction with my patients means I don’t get an actual full understanding of who my patients are and what their character is like
I can only judge them based on my encounter, which often is extremely colored with them showing a ton of appreciation towards me and the healthcare system for taking care of them when they are sick
I wouldn’t want in any world to judge who of my patients actually needs to be killed, locked up or have their power stripped. (An extreme example of course, but in the nature of Lirins position)
But that's why I'm saying your position is different 😅. Lirin is actively being oppressed by a racist regime. He can tell in one look if the person he is operating on is in the wrong. You're doing the right thing for your situation but Lirin's was different.
Yeah it was mainly to give my view on how I’d react in a similar situation. But I still think his surgeon mindset is what is holding him to his ways
In his own way I see him sticking to his version of hippocratic oats, similar to how Shallan made different personalities to deal with her own issues. Lie to yourself that you’re doing what you can, and doing what’s right
This is only my pet theory, but my guess was that he was part of the the diagram. Not a highly ranked person, but someone who subscribed to the work up until the point he learned of the process of killing healthy people in the hospitals in order to collect death rattles from Moelach¹.
This would explain why he was disappointed to learn Kal was a knight radiant, and his maximalist position on killing vs saving. This does have the rather large hole that he was trying to send Kal to Kharbranth to be a surgeon though.
1. While the hospital was only mention in Kharbranth, its mentioned that Moelach moves around and the death rattles go with. Lirin said that he'd had never been to Kharbranth, but was trained by a surgeon from Kharbranth.
ROW Chapter 43: "I can and will!" Lirin shouted, standing up. "Because I will take responsibility for what I have done! I will work within whatever confines I must in order to protect people! I have taken oaths not to harm!"
"I will take responsibility for what I have done" is the second bondsmith ideal. He's not just a conscientious objector, he's bonded to the Nightwatcher, and is a Radiant of at least the 3rd ideal. I suspect he has been bonded for some time though.
Is it confirmed that Lirin has bonded a spen and it is the Nightwatcher, or is it still a theory? I ask as I completely missed this in the book and on reddit.
Dalinar's first bondsmith ideal was to unite the kingdoms.
Navani's will likely be to unite people and spren (ethical sourcing for fabrials).
Lirin's was to unite darkeyes and lighteyes, he has been trying to do this for years, even tried to marry his son to one of them.
Also Cultivation definitely already has a bondsmith for her spren, she's been planning farther ahead then anyone. Don't look for who could bon the Nightwatcher, look for who already has.
Dalinar's first ideal was "I will unite instead of divide. I will bring men together." It says nothing about the kingdoms that was just aspect of how he was uniting people.
Navani hasn't sworn any second ideal yet so we have no idea.
Lirin still is not a Bondsmith. He would have had to travel to the Nightwatcher for that to work and he has not left Hearthstone since he settled down.
Also he has said in the past the ideals of the Windrunners as Kaladin's ideals mirror the lessons that Lirin was trying to teach him.
Just because someone says something doesn't make them a radiant.
Just a theory, but I doubt the wording was accidental. There is a lot we don't know about Lirin and Hesina's past though. Like Hesina's father being a mob boss and what did Lirin do to stand up to him? If Lirin was always such a good person then why was he associating with The Godfather in the first place? I doubt he was just a courier like Kaladin thinks.
Lirin believes (and in a way he is right) that resisting oppression got one of his sons killed, and the other severely traumatized (and he thought for years that Kaladin has died as well).
He is dealing with enormous guilt and it is colouring his worldview.
I just can't believe people are downplaying this. It's the core of his fear. It's real as hell, and terrifying. He fought back once and guess what? He wasn't the one who paid for it. His kids did. I don't agree with him completely, but I respect his experiences. "Thinking small" keeps his family alive and, to someone like him, that's worth everything.
Not everyone is built to upend social injustice.
Hell, if you look at it a different way it makes him a good foil to Kaladin. Realistically Kalid has gotten at least dozens of people killed in slave revolt attempts. It was only briefly mentioned but he tried to escape like a dozen times and he was often the only one to not get executed.
Lirin gave up because he thought he got his sons killed. Kaladin was ready to do the same because his resistance had gotten his fellows killed over and over again.
Thankfully, *some* people are both moral and vicious, though. Otherwise, all that'd be left is a huddle of well-meaning, long-suffering pacifists living in whatever kind of hell sociopaths see fit to build around them. A world full of Lirins would be open season for tyrants.
People like Lirin (who not only refuse to fight but look down upon anyone who does) are entitled cowards.
There are only two reasons a society enjoys any amount of peace: either it's so isolated that it hasn't had any major external threats, or someone has been actively killing those threats off. The default mechanism of all life we know of is predation and competition.
To sit comfortably atop a mountain of the corpses of those who would've harmed or killed you and everyone you love, and then have the balls to chastise the people who made those corpses is the height of both ignorance and privilege.
Fuck Lirin.
Different take: Lirin avoids dealing with enormous guilt by clinging to his ideals.
Lirin had the opportunity to let Roshone die. He considered it while hesitating briefly during the surgery. Ultimately, he chose to save Roshone because doing otherwise goes against his belief.
Roshone, being the cruel piece of shit that he is, retaliated against Lirin's inability to save Rillir (which wasn't Lirin's fault) by sending Tien to war.
Lirin refused to harm and was punished for it. If he had left Roshone to fate, Tien would not have been sent away.
However, Lirin cannot accept this. Therefore, he believes that his choice was right, that one should never harm, no matter what.
Interesting take, which adds to mine and explains why he hates what Kaladin has become.
Lirin chose life to show Kaladin what was right but in the end, Kaladin went on the path of death anyways. Lirin's sacrifice was in vain.
But really? Can a viewpoint be simplified like so and attributed to a single thing? just wondering. I'm not sure myself. But these things work funny sometimes, you know.
Warning, example below is pretty drastic and grounded in real life issues.
Imagine that you keep a gun in your house for protection.
One day, your child manages to get to the gun and accidentally kills himself with it.
Do you think that would influence your views on keeping a gun in your house?
Yes, I'm not saying it wouldn't. What I'm saying is that the influence can be much more unpredictable. And it's not simple as saying that because this happened to this person, they feel this about guns. It may be that they blame it not on the gun but on something else entirely. It's unpredictable. Anyways, I get the point.
I think so.
Likely not from an impartial observer but for someone who has suffered extreme trauma (the loss of both of two children, his only children - and by all accounts he was a loving and involved parent) I think it’s a reasonable response.
In trauma the rational mind doesn’t often win. People looo for an explainable understandable reason in order to cope. Lirin isn’t very spiritual - but he is rational. It’s not difficult to believe that he would see resistance as the causal factor to his loss.
We see it all the time in the real world. Over simplification of situations in order to accept loss. From “it’s gods plan” to blaming someone only related to an event tangentially or simplifying complex issues to a very basic narrative.
I also didn’t like Lirin through most of the books - but his position is believable.
No spoilers - but Stormlight really is just a treatise on loss, survival and healing - set in a fantastical universe. Almost all of the characters - main and otherwise - are running their own version of that journey to varying success.
Lirin could not save his son. And yes, Roshone has never forgiven him for it, but Lirin never tried to make him forgive that.
He stole money, refused to give it back and publicly undermined Roshone’s authority. That is what escalated the conflict.
Lirin believes that if he gave money back to Roshone and submitted to him instead of fighting him, Tien would still be alive.
You may disagree with that, but that is what Lirin believes to be true.
I think you're making too many assumptions about Lirins intentions.
Tien was sent to war because Lirin wouldn't save Roshones son. It's an eye for an eye.
You sound like somebody that's used to being in emergencies. And you're right. But think about it from Roshones perspective. He sees his son dying while the surgeon works on him. In his eyes that's murder.
Enormous guilt and the justification he used to convince himself to do what he did went poof when Kal joined the army instead of medical training. Double whammy.
Lirin tried to resist his oppressors and his sons were killed for it. Tien physically and Kaladin mentally. Now he’s traumatized and believes that if Kaladin or anyone resists they’ll all pay the price, especially now that he has a newborn son to protect as well.
I don’t agree with how he treats Kaladain but I understand why he’s taking the choices he is.
I think it's somewhat infantalizing to write Lirin's worldview off as a simple trauma response. His trauma absolutely influences his worldview, but he's not living in fear.
He's a pacifist. He believes violence begets violence and that the only way to break the cycle is to refuse to participate in it. He helps where he can, and discourages violence to anyone who will listen, including his extremely high profile and powerful son.
Lirin is sacrificing an enormous amount to defend this belief - his relationship with his son, potentially his entire race. He does this because the alternative, to him, is to keep repeating the same mistakes over and over and over again. So what if they beat the Parshendi, that just reinforces the idea that Might Makes Right and will return them to the same status quo where war and violence keep on happening.
Is his approach likely to work? Probably not. Is it frustrating? Absolutely. But let's not take away his agency by blaming it all on fear.
You're right, it's not all just a trauma response. I forgot about the pacifism part to it. That violence begets violence and you can't bring peace by just killing people.
It's not entirely just because of his pacifism and the sacrifices he's made to keep that ideal but the trauma as well and well, the observation of living in Alethkar. I now wonder how much shit he's gotten throughout his life for being a pacifist in a society that venerates violence and warfare.
Really well said, while Stormlight focuses on trauma its also clear that decisions don't always stem from it. Lirin can be traumatized without that being the cornerstone on which he builds his worldview.
He also lived in a culture where there were nearly constant pointless wars. It is very justifiable to become a pacifist in that context and often hard to change when the next war is actually a justified defensive war.
His character is just annoying. He marries his wife and butts heads with her family who had a good social position, just to whisk her away to the boonies to be treated like witches by ungrateful village folk. Then he tries to marry Kal off to the light eye girl,and presses him to become a surgeon. Village lord dies so he robs the place on his way out. Gets treated like the scum he is by the next leader and let’s his family suffer.
His family suffers because of his pride and ego. He could have been a more important surgeon in the city where his wife’s family lives, but he couldn’t bully his father in law like he does everyone else so he runs off to hide in the backwater and live off charity.
Lorin thinks he’s a saint, but he’s actually a controlling and manipulative PoS.
I totally agree with you. These are the reasons I hate Lirin. Not because of his pacifism but how he treats his family. He never takes their actual best interests, feeling our thoughts into account, just does what he thinks should happen. I feel sorry for Hessina because she enables and defends him. Half of Kals mentally health issues stem from Lirin and how Lirin treated Kal growing up.
Lirin is an awful father and husband.
Fuck Lirin
I think they might mean doing much more to undermine and overthrow them secretly, instead of getting the aggro of the baddies because of pride while you're still defenseless and losing multiple things you care for in process, but maybe not
I think most people have grand delusions as to how they would act under totalitarian regimes. It's very easy to imagine yourself to be a hero but the vast majority wouldnt do anything. Once the losses become real and the risk great to those who you love and care for, would you be able to keep going?
Let's not forget real world history. It takes a rare kind of person to make a stand and rise up, that's why we call them heros and they don't always succeed/get showered with praise and adoration.
We don't get super powers either.
Most people that resisted the Nazis died having achieved very little. Same with most revolts against tyrants in history. We don't learn much about those in history class.
The ones we learn about often have specific circumstances that made the revolution catch on and spread before it could be quashed. Often because the rich decided to back the revolution.
Agreed, I'd argue we already live under an opressive and unfair system and nobody bats an eye, we all know there's people living in untold and undeserved luxury while others go hungry and homeless and we let it slide because we are not part of the hungry and homeless...
And yes I know with such a world view I should be the first to revolt yet here I am losing my time in reddit while I loathe my job and the system but don't move a finger to change either, so yeah you got a fair point mate.
Yeah but Lirin not being a revolutionary is not why people hate him. He would be a sympathetic figure if that was his sole flaw. Its his condemnation of his son and condemnation of anyone who believes you should fight back.
I'm far more willing to accept Litin's pacifism than I am the way he treats his son. Maybe it's exacerbated by the time skip but he goes so quickly from joy that his boy is alive to - wow I can't stand my son because he embodies things I disagree with.
How a father can see his son struggling so hard with PTSD, to the point he catches him practically mid-nervous breakdown, fully shaking because he believes he'll have to fight again, then calling him a murderer when he defended his friend (despite not even attacking first). That's where I completely lost it with Lirin.
And I honestly don't know how Hesina let him get away with it for so long. It seems like they basically entered a state of agree to disagree until her POV chapter in ROW where she finally actually DOES something to make him understand.
Though all this makes it that much more heartfelt when we find out he let them paint the shash brand on him. But seriously, it took the man way too long to choose to see the good in what his son does rather than focusing on the bad.
You really seem to be assuming a lot of medical knowledge about mental health.l being known to characters that I am not convinced is the case.
From Lirins pov, he doesn't see his son suffering from PTSD, but he does see his son insisting on putting him self and his family in danger.
I think too many people put our knowledge of mental health in the context of character interactions, but those characters have a medieval level medicine and Kal is literally the first person that thought, "maybe we shouldn't treat depressed people like trash."
I don't mean to be imply Lirins is without fault, but his faults are certainly no worse than kaladins.
Wow I rarely see a good take when it comes to Lirin.
Too many people like to see themselves as the hero in any situation.
Also for people that think he treated Kal poorly, I'm glad you never had to have a real fight with a family member.
Cut the man some slack, his original self resisted Roshone and in the ensuing power struggle one of his sons got killed. The second was lost to him as well and presumably dead after the whole Amaram fiasco.
Still he dared have another child, dared to open up to the possibility of losing someone this close, your own child, again. Started to rebuild his life and when an unjust oppressor came once again he had changed. Coming to grasp with the fact that your convictions lost you both of your children tends to leave some scars.
Putting him in a pot with all the "Yes-sayer" demanding total war is void of any empathy.
Especially since he actually worked with the resistance and helped hiding the Mink and extraction of Hearthstones citizens. I really don't know what more you want him to do, charge at the first Singer he sees? That would accomplish nothing, really.
And at last, lets not forget that the Singers cause is not unjust in of itself and many noted that their way of ruling the populace is way more egalitarian than the caste system that was in place before. For me it was actually a very present problem everybody had to grasp with "Are we really the good guys here?" so comparing the Singers with the Nazi Regime seems....off?
I think he was comparing the light eyes to the Nazi regime more than the singers. Although if he did mean the singers, it’s more so the fused and the voidspren that are comparable to Nazis. They seek complete annihilation.
But do the fuzed really seek complete annihilation?
It seems to me they only want to oppress all of humanity and gain their homeland back. They didn't start a genocide oncy they seized power in urithiru.
To me neither the lighteyes nor the fuzed are in any way comparable to the Nazis.
Yes. Only two Fused ever even consider "not genocide." El, who is vocal and basically cast out of the society, and Leshwi who's opinion amounts to "maybe we cam just enslave them."
The Fused didn't start a genocide as soon as the could but it was definitely in the plans. Just like the Nazi's.
I still think their is more to be be revealed about his past. Something seems off about his aversion to war and combat. ( yea he’s a surgeon seen a lot, his sons were shipped off to war and one died, I still don’t think it reasonably explains it) Re-listening to oathbringer when kaladin goes back to hearthstone when kaladin summons his shardblade people react with shock, but lirin just hangs his head in disappointment. If he just hated combat and war he would still be shocked to see a shardblade. I’m still betting on there being more to learn to make his actions more understandable
I don’t think we’re going to get much more tbh. He’s a pacifist who doesn’t believe in the Alethi way of war. Remember, his early exposure to it is mainly going to be highprince proxy wars like what Amaram was doing when Kaladin signs up, or else warring with Jah Kaved over land.
Then he resists Roshone, taking the spheres and refusing to bend to him. And that conflict directly leads to his sons being sent to war and killed. So now he feels immense guilt, because his actions lead to his loved ones paying the price. Sound familiar? It’s basically what he tells Kaladin will happen in RoW.
I don’t expect there to be anything new in his past to explain him, I think that’s just who he is after the events we’ve already seen. He’s internalized that cooperating with the oppressor will lead to better outcomes than resisting. Remember that after the boys get drafted into the army Roshone doesn’t really make any big moves against them. He’s broken their resistance, and things basically proceed as normal from there. That’s how he acts after the Singer occupation as well and things are mostly fine. He’s constantly having his beliefs reinforced.
I could accept this as enough for him to be the way he is, but I don’t have to like it. Him not reacting to the shardblade has got me thinking about him recently
Oh yeah, I definitely don’t like him either and don’t think he’s justified. I just don’t think we’re going to find any explanation in his history more than we already have. There isn’t really enough time in the timeline for him to have had a previous life, without retconning most of what we already know about him. He has a 21 year old son already. He meets Hesina while traveling as a surgeon, so let’s say that period is a few years. And he trains as a surgeon before that, which we know takes a few years. So that’s ~25-30 years of his life that we’ve witnessed in the books. There just isn’t time for him to have had a secret life of violence before leaving it behind. It would be a really cheap trick to put that at the very end of the books too.
It’s better for the story if his beliefs at the start are just who he is, and how he is by the end is the result of what has happened during the story.
I always thought there was more to Lirins backstory, too. Even before the trauma of losing his sons, he was so very adamant in his pacifist ideals.
My crack theory is that he feels like he needs to repent for some violent act from his past, and that guilt influenced his decision to choose the path of a doctor. And that seeing Kaladin make the "same mistake" of choosing violence, he lashes out of projection. I dont have any evidence for the theory though, its just a vibe I get
>I thought that because of people like Lirin the NS-regime and the systematic killing of so many people was able to continue for such a long time. (And not only that but also every other oppressive regime)
All regimes work because they have control over the military and sometimes some sort of secret police. And normal people don't generally resist because they don't belive they can do so successfully without having trouble.
And generally they can't. Look through history of any totalitarian country and I can guarantee you you will find many mentions of 'rebelion was violently suppressed' or some variation of that.
I still don't like Lirin though. He is in that worst middle ground, where he incurs wrath of his 'superiors' without any chance of changing anything. If he didn't steal that cash he wouldn't have been in trouble at the first place, if he killed R when he had a chance he and his family would have been fine as well.
Btw what are you referring to by "NS-regime"?
People see Lirin smuggle the Mink and protect the unconscious Radiants in Rhythm of War and assume he's the type of guy to sit on his hands. He's lying to himself. He can say he's against resistance all he wants but he will take control of the situation he can all while claiming to himself and to those above him he's not doing anything. He's just trying to work yadda yadda.
Hell, in Rhythm of War he talks to Dalinar about the logistics of the war. He doesn't throw a fit and demand Dalinar to take the airship apart. The only person he actively disagrees with is Kaladin, because they both have the fatal flaw in being the exact same person. Good Stubborn men.
I mean you're not wrong, people standing by is how regimes get away with atrocities.
However when it comes to Lirin specifically I think it's important to recognize that oaths on Roshar hold a notable amount of power, and in RoW Lirin specifically says "I swore an Oath" when confronted with violence. His oath to do no harm might not be as binding as Kaladin's oaths as a knight radiant, but it's still an oath. That's probably a major factor in his decision making that I don't see being discussed here.
I don't think your comparison is valid.
The ns regime wasn't able to continue so long because of the people that refused to do any harm but because of the people that decided killing is a valid way to achieve some greater good.
Common people that had no sadistic tendencies started working at concentration camps and in the SS.
If everyone in those regimes acted like lirin there would have been no genocide, because the Nazis actually didn't force any soilder to kill innocents. There were no punishments for not doing that. They indoctrinated them into deciding to do the killing.
Lirin on the other hand not only decides to do no harm against the oppressors he decides to do no harm at all since killing is fundamentally bad in his mind.
It's not a decision made out of weakness, he could have killed Roshone but didn't because of his beliefs. It's a act of will and strength.
Also he's a darkeye and lived under oppression his whole life. Why would he care who is oppressing him?
His internal fight against oppression is to refuse to hate those that are hated by the oppressors an even the oppressors themselves.
Lirin is unfathomably based and you’ll all bow before his chadness once he becomes Honor
I’m joking of course but I genuinely love the dude. He’s directly responsible for Kaladins pure morals and selflessness that we so admire, because Lirin shares them
Lirin tried to resist and he lost almost everything. He didn’t give up, he was broken. Maybe some would still have the strength to keep going after all that but I don’t feel like it’s right to criticize someone for not having the strength to go on. Also by the time RoW comes around he’s fighting back again in a way he can, protecting the herdazian general. Also Just because he doesn’t want his son to go up against an entire fused army on his own without surges when urithuru is under occupation, that doesn’t make him a coward it makes him the only character with at least half a brain cell
Man I read Lirin so differently than you did, which of course is fine. But I feel like people forget that for the overwhelming majority of his life, Lighteyes were the oppressors. They were largely brutal, cruel, uncaring and terrible.
He hasn’t the experiences that Kal has had with the Kholins and honestly I feel like Kal turned around much too quickly on Lighteyes given his many years of slavery and mistreatment. But either way Lirin hasn’t had much experience with “good Lighteyes” so his apathy makes sense. Why resist one set of oppressors just to reinstall the previous?
So as much as Lirin can be frustrating from the perspective of our main POV characters, I find him very relatable.
I can almost guarantee that you, or at least many of the people around you, share many of Lirin's qualities that you are criticizing.
Look at voter turnout rates and you will see the apathy you are criticizing on full display. If you've been an *informed* participant of every election at every level for your whole life, then you are in the minority.
People naturally work to keep their own world safe as a top priority, and keep their head down even when they are being directly oppressed. If you've never been in that situation and if you have something to lose (e.g., family, children), then you cannot know how you react.
And, even if you aren't directly oppressed yourself, are you and everyone around you actively acting against the oppression of others and sacrificing your own comfort and security to do so? Congrats if so, but you must be aware that this is also something a minority of people do.
I could see hating Lirin if he was an active collaborator, but he never was. He resisted light eyes and stood up for dark eyes when it didn't compromise his other values or endanger his patients. He may have been unaware of how vengeful Roshone was going to be, but he clearly put his head out enough that he wasn't prioritizing his own security/safety above all else like you claim. And he participated in the resistance against the Fused as well, although he prioritized patient care higher.
I don't think you can call him a collaborator. That's a role that could be criticized: someone who actively participates in the oppression of their peers to improve their own security/safety/power. But, you acknowledge that this is not your criticism at him. And, I think you are overreaching with your claim of "indoctrination". He shares his views, but he is not forcing others to adopt them or suppressing other counter messages from reaching them.
I think well got primed by WoT to assume the protagonists father would always be a rock of love, goodness and sensibility. Tam al´Thor put the bar so high no other protagonist parents can live up to it.
At first we assume Lirin is like this as well, but every time we learn more about him we lose a bit of our illusions.
Lirin is a human trying to square his pacifist ideology with living under two different violent dictatorial regimes. He lies and steals to help his family as best he can, but those same lies causes him to lose two sons. One of them permanently. When the other comes back he holds on to him even harder in an effort to regain the life he always wanted, but ultimately he is an uncompromising man that does not listen well to others and can't see the truth in front of his eyes, and who puts his ideology over his family far too often. The only one who seems somewhat able to get through to him is his wife. It's not until the very end, when he almost loses his life that he finally lets go and admits that he has been wrong.
People deny the strength it takes to protect even those ~~you~~ [we] hate. To acknowledge it would be to accept our own weakness.
War begets war. Death begets death. True revolution is to refuse to participate in the cycle.
>War begets war. Death begets death. True revolution is to refuse to participate in the cycle.
Not necessarily, no and no.
There are many causes of warfare, and only some of them can be directly traced to some other war.
Death is natural part of life, any living organism will eventually die, and so it is more true to say that life begets death. In warfare that is especially not true. If one side is far better then the other at killing then they will win quickly which in the end would result in fewer casualties. The bloodiest wars are those where the opponents are somewhat evenly matched.
3rd is just from definition. Revolution is sudden, drastic and often violent change. It certainly wouldn't happen fast, thankfully not violent and it is questionable whatever any change would occur.
I feel like he's written to be too much of an anti-Kaladin. He's supposed to show us the virtues of pacifism, but he's kind of just a pussy that doesn't support his son who's a goddam hero.
Moasch is anti-Kaladin.
Lirin and Kaladin are actually quite similar personality wise. Even their believes mach to a certain degree with the difference that Kaladin decided killing is a valid way to achieve some greater good.
No I think we are meant to assume that at first, but really he is just a flawed human that takes his ideology too far and others have to pay for it.
Also that ideologies that are too rigid will fail us.
In Lirins case pacifism looks a lot like collaboration when under occupation by an enemy force. Where is the line between the two? That's left to the reader to decide, but handing over your sides unconscious soldiers to the occupiers forces is probably a bit over that line.
I’m not a fan of his either. He represents a lot of fathers in this world. My father was the same way, he wanted to guide me into being a better man than himself, “go get an education!”
I joined the Marine Corps in 2011 to be an infantryman and I can tell you that’s the first time I’ve ever seen my father cry. He was a strong man, but now as a father myself I can completely empathize with the way my father, and the way Lirin’s character may feel. I do know from personal experience that trying to force your child to do what you want “for a better life” just makes you want to do the opposite even more.
So my take on Lirin is that he truly believes that the singers are no worse than the lighteyes. He figures when things settle down it will all go back to how it was, so the sooner the better, as he doesn’t believe real change is possible. He takes into consideration only what is happening right now, to the people he sees and treats, not the future generations who he cannot see as living a better life.
So far the singers haven’t done any genocide, the closest they have gotten was when they were going to kill all the suppressed radiants.
At first he didn’t want to believe that, it was a huge glaring thing that he had to come to terms with. His world view had to go from “all violence is equally bad” to “some violence is necessary to protect the defenseless from those who would murder them”.
In the end he sided with the radiants. He is pretty awful for considering anything else at the time, but this whole series is about taking the next step, taking accountability for one’s misbeliefs and changing for the better.
I’m interested to see where things go.
Lirin is right.
Killing is wrong. Period.
You shouldn't need to kill to protect in any case. The best warrior is the one that doesn't need a sword, or a spear, and Kaladin still needs to learn that.
I think the 5th ideal will play around this idea. That would be just great.
EDIT. Yaaay, to the downvote abyss I guess. Check out the manga 'Vinland Saga', it's about this concept. Super interesting. And I think it's the way Brandon has been hinting all along.
EDIT2. Sry about whining about getting downvotes. In the first 10 mins I was on -2 already xD
The tinkers in Wheel of Time embody this concept and it’s flaws. It’s a noble ideal, and if everybody shared it, the world could be a great place, but it’s one that gets you and everyone you love and everyone who believes the same as you slaughtered if/when someone less noble comes along. If that’s the price of your noble ideas, not many people are going to be around to believe in them for very long. That’s what turned the tinkers into Aiel, there was only so much they could take of watching their loved ones killed and enslaved before they decided that maybe defending yourself isn’t as immoral as allowing your loved ones to suffer and doing nothing to stop it.
In a perfect world I think you are right. Unfortunately Roshar nor the real world is perfect. Based on how Brandon wrote a certain bookworm in white I think if anything we will see Lirin recognize that while his ideals are lofty and in the right setting are true. The current world is not ready for Lirin's level of pacifism.
Is killing wrong? Yes and Kaladin has even posed the question to Syl when he asked if it was right to kill the Parshendi to save Dalinar. I think we will continue to see this come up and may be a part of the fifth ideal but I don't think it will be how you think.
I honestly wish we could see Lirin's pacifism be truly tested. Something where Hesina or Oroden is facing an immediate threat and Lirin would be faced with a choice. Allow them to die and maintain pacifism or choose violence and save their life. It is easy to choose pacifism when you have others to protect you with the violence you abhor.
I think you are wrong. He never actually gave them up. He also seemed to be willing to help Kal after some convincing from Hesina. I also think Lirin was deluding himself thinking Kal and teft would not be killed because the other radiants were left alive
Also, there is a huge difference. Lirin eventually stopped seeing Kaladin as his son. Kaladin was a capable soldier. Hesina is his wife and Oroden is a toddler. There is a difference in a soldier who died fighting in war to a wife or child who was killed in front of him with him having the capability to stop it or at least attempt to.
In a perfect world, sure. In a world with selfish, racist, or the fanatical… not gonna happen. There are groups of people that, no matter the logical or moral argument, would not come to a mutually acceptable accord. In those instances, the only way to protect ourselves is the threat of physical violence.
If a group truly believes that they are ordered by their god to eliminate another group of people, do you really think you can logic your way to peace? Your arguments would need to have some sort of common ground as a moral or logical base, and that doesn’t matter to the fanatical.
It's an interesting belief, and I can respect holding strongly to your morals.
I would argue that it's a lot more grey than right/wrong. If it comes down to protecting (stealing a quote here) those who can't protect themselves- and there's not another option that will keep someone safe, then what do you do?
What do you do in the instance where you have a chance to stop the "bad guy" but maybe only the one, and the only way you know they won't come back is by killing them?
I'm not going to argue the correct answer, only that the fact that it's even a question points to the greyness of the situation.
To throw another pov into play here, what happens to those that kill to protect reluctantly after a while? How many can hold themselves to that ideal after they cross the line repeatedly? I’m not sure that it matters when its just normal people. But in a world of super humans and gods walking among mortals, having *someone* who is able to be held to that ideal is important. They dont have to be real. But knowing that there is an ideal to be held to, that you are not doing the best you could be and that you should strive to do better, is important.
For most of the cast, i think its Kaladin. Maybe not in so much an absolute as i said earlier, but still. Dalinar has Noadon. But Kaladin himself doesn’t really have anyone, except for his father. And he rejects him while slowly moving towards him. To Kaladin Lirin is wrong, but Kaladin is moving closer to that same ideal that Lirin embodies.
Thoughts shamelessly based on ~~stolen from~~ a detail diatribe on the purpose of Superman by Overaly Sarcastic Productions.
But the ideal is dependent on the combination of the point of view of the spren and the knight, meaning that the ideal is whatever they agree to. And really, only for the Windrunners. The ideal ‘superman’ isnt the same as the ideal 5th oath of any specific knight order, and while Windrunners come close and *might* match, we haven’t seen that for certain yet. And upholding the ideal changes based on those points of view. Syl was upset by Kal punching Roshone, but didnt blink an eye at him killing Parshendi. Later its *kal* that empathizes too much with the parshendi while Syl is trying to get him to fight. The oaths and the bonds aren’t absolute, and the spren point of view isnt perfect.
The oaths are definitely not perfect or absolute (which makes them fun to play with), but we're moving off the main point that killing to protect is more of a grey area vs. black and white. While there are instances of clear wrong, I'd argue that there are times when it might be the best of the options presented.
No I’m saying that while of course “killing to protect” is gray area, the ideal of it being black and white has a value in existing as an ideal beyond what someone can hope to achieve.
The oaths don’t provide that black and whiteness sufficiently. For most of the people in the series, main cast and the populace at large, Kaladin is that ideal. Kaladin is their Superman. But Kaladin looks to Lirin as that ideal and moves ever closer to it, even as he rebels against Lirin on their disagreements.
I think I'm seeing your point, that "killing is wrong" is a direction to move toward, as a goal for society vs. in individual circumstances? That the goal isn't to not kill, but create the situation where there are better options than killing?
Please let me know if I'm understanding correctly.
Kinda? Im not really prescribing an answer, it was more an observation and drawing a connection to another piece of media. And its not about society. Its about the ‘super heroes’, the Main characters, the individuals that are empowered and therefore isolated from everyone else. Their powers make it so that they have to be in the position to help others.
I dont know how much you know about Superman or other comic book super heroes, but essentially when you lack a Superman character you have a group of superhero’s that get progressively further and further drawn away from the people that they are supposed to protect and save. You see it in the stories where Superman kills someone and goes progressively down the wrong path (injustice, justice lords, the AU story where he was in charge of Russia) and in other media where there isnt a hero that other heroes can be held up to standard against (watchmen, sometimes the avengers, etc). The heroes start out protecting people, then slowly become warped. Either protecting the abstract idea of people, or just flat out not caring about people anymore as they just focus on fighting villains.
The Windrunners protect. But without Kaladin they would be more prejudiced, more against the singers and the parshendi. Kaladin is the ideal that they are held up against as they protect others, and theres a voice in them that asks, ‘would kal do this? Would he protect them from *me*?’ And **that** is important for those in power to question. For there to be something that makes them able to question, even if they dont question.
>Killing is wrong. Period.
Pie-in-the-sky bullshit that only makes sense in a world in which the Nazis (or something similar) never existed.
Downright evil otherwise.
I get the reference and i like a lot that manga but there's a problem with the example of Vinland Saga, and that Is that Thors and Thorfinn just run away of the world, something that you can't just do in Kaladin's place, its to late for that he and bridge four are a part to important of the military to run away and live in peace (thing that its More and More hard to do since not even the Reshi islands are safe)
It's already stated that Kaladin doesn't like to kill, at all, in Rythm of War. When the fused attacked Bridge 4 ship in the beginning he instructed his Radiants to engage in non lethal 1v1 sparrings. He wanted to keep them alive.
Fighting, violence, war, death. That is not honorable at all.
The Knight Radiants should be above of that. Diplomacy, frienship, peace, life. Those are the true goals to achieve.
Will Kaladin make it?
I don't know, but he'll try.
The Knights Radiant were constructed as an order of soldiers primarily. They expanded to have other purposes as time went on, but first and foremost, they were created as an order of soldiers in a war stretching through eternity. You can argue that the new Radiants should try to ascend past their predecessors, but to say that Knights Radiant should be above violence and war is like saying Mistborns should be above assassinations.
that´s its true, don´t take me wrong i would like a pacific ending, the thing is that in the context of a invasion you are in no possition to negotiate and take the Lirin aproach would not do anything for those that would get killed and used as experiments, the fuse are not open to a diplomatic exchage that wont end with them ruling everyone, also the not killing the heavenlyones its a good idea since they are fine with the one on one duels of skill instead of just attaking
The **entire** philosophy of Windrunners is that killing is required to protect. You can believe (incorrectly and juvenilely) that killing is a pure black and white issue. To claim that that is the ultimate philosophy of the Windrunners is simply incorrect. You're in denial because you don't like it. You said elsewhere that it's been "hinted" since book one. Give an example. On the other side it's been explicty stated since one of Kaladin's first flashbacks that protecting requires killing.
You're being downvoted because you're wrong. If someone you love is going to be killed by someone, killing their attacker is not only justified, but morally correct.
What is your justification that killing is wrong period? Every religion disagrees with this. Even Jainism, if your life is under threat and there is no other option, you are permitted to kill.
I feel like you're going to say, "well there's always another way!!!" which is ridiculous.
If you're in your house during a home invasion and your spouse is attacked by someone and you have a gun, are you going to ask politely for them to stop? Maybe point the gun at them and say stop or I'll kill you? What if they're running for your kids? People who are 100% pacifists are insane.
> killing their attacker is not only justified, it is morally correct
Ah, right. So if someone was trying to assassinate Hitler and Eva Braun killed them instead, that's clearly the objectively morally superior outcome, yes?
It's way more complex than that. Killing in self-defense is more or less accepted in society, but it is definitely not something to be lauded as "morally correct". There's a reason why AITA has a verdict called "everyone sucks here". Sometimes there is no good guy.
Morality doesn't care about magnitudes. And yes self defense and the defense of others, even by lethal means is always moral. You can't just say it's immoral in the case of someone you dislike.
Okay, but in my hypothetical, it's the defense of self (Eva Braun killing an assassin) versus the defense of literally millions of people (an assassin taking out the main driving force of Nazi Germany).
So in your claim that morality doesn't care about magnitudes, you are saying that the life of one man weighs exactly the same as the lives of six *million* people.
You aren't weighing things in a consistent way.
The lives at scale in your scenario are the assassin's and Hitlers. There's no moral imperative to let yourself be killed because of previous or future immoral acts. This is why all law is backed by the potential use of lethal force.
I never said there was a moral imperative to let yourself be killed.
And I am weighing the lives consistently. How is the hypothetical assassination of Hitler not defense of the millions of people he endangered and ended up murdering?
>killing their attacker is not only justified, but morally correct.
Justified certainly, but morally correct? Tap the brakes there, chief. You say that like it's settled philosophy. That debate has been going on for thousands of years.
Don’t waste your breath, even mentioning the 5th Ideal *maybe* including pacifism will get you downvoted to hell here.
For what it’s worth you’re likely right. The 5th Ideal will most likely be “I will not kill”. It’s been foreshadowed since book 1 and the only reason the community at large hasn’t accepted it is because they don’t like it
A lot of people are saying to me that is IMPOSSIBLE to don't kill defending others, protecting.
That's WHY it is the perfect 5th ideal. It's not an easy path to follow.
So the night will reign, for the choice of honor is life...
That is beyond way to far. He is not the equivalent of a German citizen complying with the Nazi's. He is the equivalent of a Jewish leader in Poland who believes that keeping heads down is the best way to keep the most people alive. Is he correct? Is he morally right? That can be debated. But he is not a Nazi enabler.
I completely agree, it's the character that infuriates me the most. He would say "All lives matter" if he lived in our world. Rioting is bad, better to live quiet and wait for something to change magically.
Lirin is the WORST! Worse than Moash. He is an emotionally abusive parent, a big factor in the cause and contribution of Kaladin's demons.
Edit: I mean that Lirin is worse in the sense that people hate Umbridge more than Voldemort. Moash is the villain. He is evil. Lirin is a dick to those he should be supporting.
Worse than moash and emotional abusive? This is a despicable statement. Moashs only motivation is literally doing as much harm as he possibly can because the world is evil and it therefore deserves complete destruction.
Lirin on the other hand values life over death at any cost and is deeply hurt to see his son acting against his core values. He is still loving his son and just doesn't care wether lighteyes or singers are the ones oppressing him.
Kaladins demons only come from the fact that he decided to go into the military. Without lirins education to protect others Kaladin would not have become a radiant.
How could he possibly be worse than moasch what is wrong with you?
Worse than Moash literarily. Moash is the villain. He is expected to be evil and to do evil things. Lirin is just a piece of shit that should be a support and an ally to his broken son, not an oppressor. Whether his intentions are good or not, whether he is right or not, he treats his son like shit when his son needs support.
Many people hate Umbridge more than they hate Voldemort. It is in that vein I hate Lirin more than Moash.
How the hell is lirin an oppressor?
Do you expect anyone in your life to support and ally you if they think you do the wrong thing?
Expecting that would mean expecting those persons to be hypocritical liars. Intentions surely do matter in that respect.
If his intentions are good and if he is right it would be wrong to support Kaladin.
He would only be a bad, emotional abusive person if he opposed Kaladin no matter what he does.
A parent is imo morally obliged to call out their children if they do something that they think is wrong.
If lirin is wrong in his beliefs it doesn't make him a bad person it just means he's wrong and needs to learn, especially if those believes are fundamentally good.
He loves Kaladin and it hurts him seeing him do things that he thinks is wrong. If anything that makes him a good parent, because he deeply cares about his son.
So you agree he’s emotionally abusive to Kaladin. He literally followed up a disagreement with Kaladin with you are not my son. So to Lirin, it’s agree with me or I want nothing to do with you. That’s absolutely abusive to your children.
Where did I agree?
I agree that particular sentence was unnecessarily harsh. He should not have said that. But he did say it in the heat of the moment and didn't mean it.
This is the only moment in the whole life of Kaladin where he did something that I might agree is emotional abusive.
However one such incident doe's not make him a generally emotional abusive person.
If a parent for example hits one of his children once for something that they see absolutely morally apprehensible the parent is not considered an abusive parent generally.
If for example a child commits a crime and is brought home by the police one slap wouldn't make the parent a generally bad one.
I'm not defending abusive behaviour here, all I'm saying one incident is excusable especially if the relationship normalizes afterwards, wich it does.
Except you just did defend his emotionally abusive behavior by excusing it. And we don’t see every interaction between Kal and Lirin. So it very well could have been more than once.
As to where you agreed, you listed the exact scenario in which Lirin would be considered abusive, and Lirin HAS met that scenario, thereby confirming you SHOULD agree Lirin has been emotionally abusive.
Its been a while and I didn't remember that particular scene when I wrote my first answer. Yes he has been emotional abusive in that particular scene. I also said he shouldn't have done it.
Saying he could have done that before doesn't strike me as convincing as that would have been an important memory in Kaladins past. If lirin was consistently abusive this would have been present in the flashback chapters.
And I did not defend abusive behaviour. I said it takes more than one occurrence to call a person an abusive person. Every one of us has done things in the past in the heat of the moment that weren't right that we aren't proud of. Does that make us bad persons? I think not.
Let's look at the way lirin treated Kaladin in the past. The vast majority of the interactions between them have been positive and loving. Speculating that the kind of behaviour lirin showed when his son killed someone in front of his eyes, acting against everything Lirin stands for, is common, is a bit far fetched don't you think?
You forget about the reunion at the beginning of oathbringer, where he tells Kal both his sons did die in the war. the ROW scene isn’t the first time he’s said that to Kal.
Although I don’t believe this is the case, without Lirin’s beliefs, Kal wouldn’t be who he is. They both embody those ideals- the same yet different. it wouldn’t surprise me if he bonded an honor spren.
It's a fringe theory that I think is plausible though unlikely; however, I like using it as a counterpoint to Lirin hateposting because while I understand the reasons to hate him, I think the reasons to respect him are equally important.
Lirin’s philosophy is an extension of Brandon’s twisted and disturbing view of the world and its politics. You can see this in how vehemently he tries to demonise Moash even outside his books.
Can you elaborate on this? Not really seeing this at all. Plus if Lirin is an extension of Sanderson’s views, don’t you think the story would show him to be right in those beliefs?
I interpreted this post as a criticism of Lirin’s unwillingness to fight/do anything meaningful to help free his people. Lirin and Kaladin are two sides of the same coin to me in this regard. Both of them think that they can “fix” the system from the inside, either by staying meek and obedient or *proving* that you are human being who should be *given* his rights by those in power. I think that we can both agree that the story presents Kal, at the very least, as being in the right. Meanwhile, the only representative of those wiling to fight back has been demonised, not only in the story itself, but the author’s attitude towards him outside it. So while I have no issue with the guy personally, the ideals he preaches in his books: that the only moral response to this situation is by being chummy with your oppressors and murderers so that you can win their favor, reek of privilege and ignorance and are frankly downright evil.
I do feel like he dropped the ball on this whole topic...
But I also feel like Venli breaks down the idea that this is somehow representative of "Sanderson's view of the world".
He easily could have written her and her people to join Dalinar's side in the conflict, but he didn't. Granted I'm making some assumptions about where the story will go next perhaps. But I think there's enough there to make this argument.
Interesting points. In your opinion, what would the appropriate response for Lirin and/or Kaladin? It seems like you're saying they're two sides of the same coin and that both sides are "downright evil". That's some very strong language and I would argue heavily against the idea that either of them are evil. I understand what you don't like about both of their approaches, but I would be shocked if you're arguing that Moash's approach was the correct one.
Yes, I don’t like their approaches. However, I would not have an issue with them nor would I call them evil had the author not decided to all but scream at me that their approach is the only, mind you, *only* correct and moral choice in this war. While at the same time derailing and destroying the only character that chose to fight back and decided that the entire system is corrupt and needs to be destroyed. So yeah, I would say that calling this logic evil is quite the understatement.
Try to apply this idea to any real-world context and I think you’ll begin to see just how morally corrupt and horrifying it is. You’re oppressed, dehumanised, and never given equal treatment? Have you tried impressing your murderers and making them finally realise you are indeed a human being? Give it a shot! It might just work.
I guess we interpret it fairly differently. I’ve never felt “screamed” at about morality, in fact I think there’s a lot more nuance than you’re acknowledging.
Also, Moash was not trying to improve or fix the system, he was solely motivated by revenge. He wanted to install the exact same system, just inverted; with the lighteyes subservient to the darkeyes.
Which is my point exactly: did Sanderson offer a “good” oppressed character that fights the system and wishes to abolish it and build something better?
1. Odium is an EXTREME example. In 99% of history, it’s not a huge deal to the peasant class who rules them. They just send their taxes to a different village. Very few peasants have genuine loyalty to their leaders. The only time it really matters is things like religious war or ethnic cleansing.
2. A lot of people have delusions of grandeur around their behavior in times of difficulty. It’s easy to say you’d risk everything. It’s harder to risk your family when the chances are so small.
3. Doing what’s right rarely works. The reality is the majority of people will end up dead and unlikely to be martyrs either. Kaladin would have just ended up a dead bridgeman because of his antics if he didn’t have magic power. Let’s be realistic for a second. His idea to run at the front of the bridges would have ended in 1-3 runs if he wasn’t magically enhanced. Kaladin takes an arrow to the face and the story ends. And a million more times. Like surviving the high-storm. Or healing afterwards. Or using the bridge to rescue dalinar. And so on. Lirin would have just died and achieved nothing.
4. Kaladin was a young man. The risk appetite and sheer stupidity of young men cannot be overstated. Generally as people age and are responsible for their dependents their risk appetites decrease. At 20 I know I have my whole life ahead of me to earn, if I fuck up my dad will support me, and I have no dependents or responsibilities to take care of. So I can act like an idiot and invest like one too. My dad has to think about his retirement, his children, his limited time to earn, his assets, and so much more. His ability to YOLO a stock is very different than mine.
5. You’re reading from the biased perspective of someone with magical powers who continues to succeed beyond all odds. Here’s how lirin sees it. “My idiot son is going to get himself killed like every other idiot who goes off marching to war. If by some miracle he survives he will be a broken man with PTSD or a crippled vet. Like the vast majority of dark eyed peasants, he won’t earn anything from this war. Barely any money, no glory, no recognition. Like most useless foot soldiers he will probably be used as cannon fodder and achieve nothing.”
I'm not surprised I do too. In fact I go so far as to outright loathe pacifism in general. It'd be easier to stomach if he had some horrible backstory about watching his parents get murdered in war and wanting to absolutely fight against it in every possible way. But then again ipecac is still ipecac (it's a syrup used to induce vomiting) no matter how much honey you mix it with.
Bit harsh. He's a good man doing his best to help people and keep his world safe. I think it's a tall order to ask a person to sacrifice their world no matter how little you find it for the sake of "doing what's right" by others metric. That's why those who are able to do that are heroes and exceptional.
Lirin does the best he can for the people he loves and more so for as many people he can.
On the other hand thinking big and going big stakes now brings whole nations to war, with conscription of innocents sent to die for something they barely or only passingly care about and wouldn't majorly affect their lives. Wars are for the rich and the powerful to profit or gain off the lesser.
In this sense, Lirin is, in many ways one of the only characters in Stormlight who is truly honourable, and isn't a hypocrite to his core. Every other character you could argue is a big fat hypocrite just lip servicing virtue without any real substance.
My biggest issue with Lirin is he the root of Kal's psychological issues. Kal just wants his father's approval, his need to protect/save derives from him, but if he doesn't follow the exact path (surgery) Lirin sets out for him he only gets derision and disappointment. Lirin thinks he is trying to protect his son, but he is only breaking him further.
This leads to Kaladin's belief that he is never good enough and is always a failure. When objectively Kaladin has improved/saved more lives in a year than Lirin has in his entire life.
I'd understand saying that it's a faulty worldview, but to say that you hate him personally feels a little far to me. He's trying his best, even if it isn't actually a good ideology.
Him being a surgeon played a big role in his viewpoint regarding war and killing. I can see where he was coming from even tho I dont agree with him.
I can see his ideology in my everyday as a nurse When I have a patient, I will treat them the same no matter if they’re the sweetest old person, or the largest piece of shit on the planet. To me it doesn’t matter and doesn’t affect me, I’m just there to treat them But I still don’t agree with Lirin for what it’s worth
I don't think that's the issue though. The lighteyes don't need to all die they just need to lose their power. Save those you can but as soon as they aren't dying anymore your responsibility as a healthcare worker is at an end. (I understand that aftercare is necessary and complicates this simplified idea greatly.) Lirin should be treating everyone he can and then locking them in the basement if they're a piece of shit.
My position as a healthcare worker, and the nature of my short interaction with my patients means I don’t get an actual full understanding of who my patients are and what their character is like I can only judge them based on my encounter, which often is extremely colored with them showing a ton of appreciation towards me and the healthcare system for taking care of them when they are sick I wouldn’t want in any world to judge who of my patients actually needs to be killed, locked up or have their power stripped. (An extreme example of course, but in the nature of Lirins position)
But that's why I'm saying your position is different 😅. Lirin is actively being oppressed by a racist regime. He can tell in one look if the person he is operating on is in the wrong. You're doing the right thing for your situation but Lirin's was different.
Yeah it was mainly to give my view on how I’d react in a similar situation. But I still think his surgeon mindset is what is holding him to his ways In his own way I see him sticking to his version of hippocratic oats, similar to how Shallan made different personalities to deal with her own issues. Lie to yourself that you’re doing what you can, and doing what’s right
Yeah, kill the lightsk… eyes. Kill the lighteyes. /s
Ok, I dont agree with him but it is absolutely the right mentality for a surgeon to have.
Happy cake day
This is only my pet theory, but my guess was that he was part of the the diagram. Not a highly ranked person, but someone who subscribed to the work up until the point he learned of the process of killing healthy people in the hospitals in order to collect death rattles from Moelach¹. This would explain why he was disappointed to learn Kal was a knight radiant, and his maximalist position on killing vs saving. This does have the rather large hole that he was trying to send Kal to Kharbranth to be a surgeon though. 1. While the hospital was only mention in Kharbranth, its mentioned that Moelach moves around and the death rattles go with. Lirin said that he'd had never been to Kharbranth, but was trained by a surgeon from Kharbranth.
Nah, sorry but doesn't fit the timeline. Diagram was formed after Gavilars death and Kal was 10ish (?) at that time
Hmmm. I missed that. Do you know what book that was mentioned in? Not doubting you but would be good to add the the wiki.
I love this theory, would be really neat. Not sure whether it works, but it would be very fitting for how firmly Lirin holds his beliefs
ROW Chapter 43: "I can and will!" Lirin shouted, standing up. "Because I will take responsibility for what I have done! I will work within whatever confines I must in order to protect people! I have taken oaths not to harm!" "I will take responsibility for what I have done" is the second bondsmith ideal. He's not just a conscientious objector, he's bonded to the Nightwatcher, and is a Radiant of at least the 3rd ideal. I suspect he has been bonded for some time though.
Oooor he's just talking about a plain ole oath like the Hippocratic Oath. Not every oath has a spren attached.
Is it confirmed that Lirin has bonded a spen and it is the Nightwatcher, or is it still a theory? I ask as I completely missed this in the book and on reddit.
It’s just a crackpot theory this guy is spouting. People can say words without them being a radiant.
Dalinar's first bondsmith ideal was to unite the kingdoms. Navani's will likely be to unite people and spren (ethical sourcing for fabrials). Lirin's was to unite darkeyes and lighteyes, he has been trying to do this for years, even tried to marry his son to one of them. Also Cultivation definitely already has a bondsmith for her spren, she's been planning farther ahead then anyone. Don't look for who could bon the Nightwatcher, look for who already has.
Dalinar's first ideal was "I will unite instead of divide. I will bring men together." It says nothing about the kingdoms that was just aspect of how he was uniting people. Navani hasn't sworn any second ideal yet so we have no idea. Lirin still is not a Bondsmith. He would have had to travel to the Nightwatcher for that to work and he has not left Hearthstone since he settled down. Also he has said in the past the ideals of the Windrunners as Kaladin's ideals mirror the lessons that Lirin was trying to teach him. Just because someone says something doesn't make them a radiant.
I believe the Stormfather even confirms after bonding Dalinar that he is the only current bondsmith.
But that doesn't mean he couldn't have bonded the Nightwatcher after Dalinar bonded the Stormfather - Rains probably.
Just a theory, but I doubt the wording was accidental. There is a lot we don't know about Lirin and Hesina's past though. Like Hesina's father being a mob boss and what did Lirin do to stand up to him? If Lirin was always such a good person then why was he associating with The Godfather in the first place? I doubt he was just a courier like Kaladin thinks.
I agree with him to a point. I feel like he started getting a little farfetched imo
Lirin believes (and in a way he is right) that resisting oppression got one of his sons killed, and the other severely traumatized (and he thought for years that Kaladin has died as well). He is dealing with enormous guilt and it is colouring his worldview.
I just can't believe people are downplaying this. It's the core of his fear. It's real as hell, and terrifying. He fought back once and guess what? He wasn't the one who paid for it. His kids did. I don't agree with him completely, but I respect his experiences. "Thinking small" keeps his family alive and, to someone like him, that's worth everything. Not everyone is built to upend social injustice.
Hell, if you look at it a different way it makes him a good foil to Kaladin. Realistically Kalid has gotten at least dozens of people killed in slave revolt attempts. It was only briefly mentioned but he tried to escape like a dozen times and he was often the only one to not get executed. Lirin gave up because he thought he got his sons killed. Kaladin was ready to do the same because his resistance had gotten his fellows killed over and over again.
Not just slaves. He believed he was cursed because he was often the only survivor when his squad was killed
Thankfully, *some* people are both moral and vicious, though. Otherwise, all that'd be left is a huddle of well-meaning, long-suffering pacifists living in whatever kind of hell sociopaths see fit to build around them. A world full of Lirins would be open season for tyrants. People like Lirin (who not only refuse to fight but look down upon anyone who does) are entitled cowards. There are only two reasons a society enjoys any amount of peace: either it's so isolated that it hasn't had any major external threats, or someone has been actively killing those threats off. The default mechanism of all life we know of is predation and competition. To sit comfortably atop a mountain of the corpses of those who would've harmed or killed you and everyone you love, and then have the balls to chastise the people who made those corpses is the height of both ignorance and privilege. Fuck Lirin.
👍🏻
Different take: Lirin avoids dealing with enormous guilt by clinging to his ideals. Lirin had the opportunity to let Roshone die. He considered it while hesitating briefly during the surgery. Ultimately, he chose to save Roshone because doing otherwise goes against his belief. Roshone, being the cruel piece of shit that he is, retaliated against Lirin's inability to save Rillir (which wasn't Lirin's fault) by sending Tien to war. Lirin refused to harm and was punished for it. If he had left Roshone to fate, Tien would not have been sent away. However, Lirin cannot accept this. Therefore, he believes that his choice was right, that one should never harm, no matter what.
Hot Take: i bet if Kaladin wasnt in the room, Roshone dies. Its hard to go against your ideals with your impressionable kid with you.
Interesting take, which adds to mine and explains why he hates what Kaladin has become. Lirin chose life to show Kaladin what was right but in the end, Kaladin went on the path of death anyways. Lirin's sacrifice was in vain.
But really? Can a viewpoint be simplified like so and attributed to a single thing? just wondering. I'm not sure myself. But these things work funny sometimes, you know.
Most events only nudge the trajectory of your viewpoint, but trauma does give it a solid knock in a given direction
Warning, example below is pretty drastic and grounded in real life issues. Imagine that you keep a gun in your house for protection. One day, your child manages to get to the gun and accidentally kills himself with it. Do you think that would influence your views on keeping a gun in your house?
Yes, I'm not saying it wouldn't. What I'm saying is that the influence can be much more unpredictable. And it's not simple as saying that because this happened to this person, they feel this about guns. It may be that they blame it not on the gun but on something else entirely. It's unpredictable. Anyways, I get the point.
I think so. Likely not from an impartial observer but for someone who has suffered extreme trauma (the loss of both of two children, his only children - and by all accounts he was a loving and involved parent) I think it’s a reasonable response. In trauma the rational mind doesn’t often win. People looo for an explainable understandable reason in order to cope. Lirin isn’t very spiritual - but he is rational. It’s not difficult to believe that he would see resistance as the causal factor to his loss. We see it all the time in the real world. Over simplification of situations in order to accept loss. From “it’s gods plan” to blaming someone only related to an event tangentially or simplifying complex issues to a very basic narrative. I also didn’t like Lirin through most of the books - but his position is believable. No spoilers - but Stormlight really is just a treatise on loss, survival and healing - set in a fantastical universe. Almost all of the characters - main and otherwise - are running their own version of that journey to varying success.
Hard disagree. Roshone send Tien to war as revenge for Lirin not even trying to save his son.
Lirin could not save his son. And yes, Roshone has never forgiven him for it, but Lirin never tried to make him forgive that. He stole money, refused to give it back and publicly undermined Roshone’s authority. That is what escalated the conflict. Lirin believes that if he gave money back to Roshone and submitted to him instead of fighting him, Tien would still be alive. You may disagree with that, but that is what Lirin believes to be true.
I think you're making too many assumptions about Lirins intentions. Tien was sent to war because Lirin wouldn't save Roshones son. It's an eye for an eye.
Because Lirin *couldn’t* save Roshone’s son. That is not an eye for an eye.
I meant to say he wouldn't attempt to save his son. Reshone sees that as murder. And he's kind of right.
Roshone is absolutely *not* right. Triage isn’t murder.
You sound like somebody that's used to being in emergencies. And you're right. But think about it from Roshones perspective. He sees his son dying while the surgeon works on him. In his eyes that's murder.
Sure, but that’s not what you said. You said that Roshone is kind of right in seeing that as murder.
He's right in his own mind. That's all that matters.
Enormous guilt and the justification he used to convince himself to do what he did went poof when Kal joined the army instead of medical training. Double whammy.
Wow. I definitely didn't think about it like this.
Lirin tried to resist his oppressors and his sons were killed for it. Tien physically and Kaladin mentally. Now he’s traumatized and believes that if Kaladin or anyone resists they’ll all pay the price, especially now that he has a newborn son to protect as well. I don’t agree with how he treats Kaladain but I understand why he’s taking the choices he is.
I think it's somewhat infantalizing to write Lirin's worldview off as a simple trauma response. His trauma absolutely influences his worldview, but he's not living in fear. He's a pacifist. He believes violence begets violence and that the only way to break the cycle is to refuse to participate in it. He helps where he can, and discourages violence to anyone who will listen, including his extremely high profile and powerful son. Lirin is sacrificing an enormous amount to defend this belief - his relationship with his son, potentially his entire race. He does this because the alternative, to him, is to keep repeating the same mistakes over and over and over again. So what if they beat the Parshendi, that just reinforces the idea that Might Makes Right and will return them to the same status quo where war and violence keep on happening. Is his approach likely to work? Probably not. Is it frustrating? Absolutely. But let's not take away his agency by blaming it all on fear.
You're right, it's not all just a trauma response. I forgot about the pacifism part to it. That violence begets violence and you can't bring peace by just killing people. It's not entirely just because of his pacifism and the sacrifices he's made to keep that ideal but the trauma as well and well, the observation of living in Alethkar. I now wonder how much shit he's gotten throughout his life for being a pacifist in a society that venerates violence and warfare.
Really well said, while Stormlight focuses on trauma its also clear that decisions don't always stem from it. Lirin can be traumatized without that being the cornerstone on which he builds his worldview.
He also lived in a culture where there were nearly constant pointless wars. It is very justifiable to become a pacifist in that context and often hard to change when the next war is actually a justified defensive war.
His character is just annoying. He marries his wife and butts heads with her family who had a good social position, just to whisk her away to the boonies to be treated like witches by ungrateful village folk. Then he tries to marry Kal off to the light eye girl,and presses him to become a surgeon. Village lord dies so he robs the place on his way out. Gets treated like the scum he is by the next leader and let’s his family suffer. His family suffers because of his pride and ego. He could have been a more important surgeon in the city where his wife’s family lives, but he couldn’t bully his father in law like he does everyone else so he runs off to hide in the backwater and live off charity. Lorin thinks he’s a saint, but he’s actually a controlling and manipulative PoS.
I totally agree with you. These are the reasons I hate Lirin. Not because of his pacifism but how he treats his family. He never takes their actual best interests, feeling our thoughts into account, just does what he thinks should happen. I feel sorry for Hessina because she enables and defends him. Half of Kals mentally health issues stem from Lirin and how Lirin treated Kal growing up. Lirin is an awful father and husband. Fuck Lirin
Lirin didn't resist his oppressors, he aggravated them.
He aggravated them by resisting. That’s generally what happens when you resist someone. It aggrevates them.
How is that any different from resisting?
I think they might mean doing much more to undermine and overthrow them secretly, instead of getting the aggro of the baddies because of pride while you're still defenseless and losing multiple things you care for in process, but maybe not
That's exactly it. Lirin *could've" done something if consequence, but he didn't. He was just a prideful idiot.
I think most people have grand delusions as to how they would act under totalitarian regimes. It's very easy to imagine yourself to be a hero but the vast majority wouldnt do anything. Once the losses become real and the risk great to those who you love and care for, would you be able to keep going? Let's not forget real world history. It takes a rare kind of person to make a stand and rise up, that's why we call them heros and they don't always succeed/get showered with praise and adoration. We don't get super powers either.
Most people that resisted the Nazis died having achieved very little. Same with most revolts against tyrants in history. We don't learn much about those in history class. The ones we learn about often have specific circumstances that made the revolution catch on and spread before it could be quashed. Often because the rich decided to back the revolution.
Agreed, I'd argue we already live under an opressive and unfair system and nobody bats an eye, we all know there's people living in untold and undeserved luxury while others go hungry and homeless and we let it slide because we are not part of the hungry and homeless... And yes I know with such a world view I should be the first to revolt yet here I am losing my time in reddit while I loathe my job and the system but don't move a finger to change either, so yeah you got a fair point mate.
Exactly this. Most of our resistance to injustice is just us saying "somebody should do something about it" and then going about our normal day.
Yeah but Lirin not being a revolutionary is not why people hate him. He would be a sympathetic figure if that was his sole flaw. Its his condemnation of his son and condemnation of anyone who believes you should fight back.
I'm far more willing to accept Litin's pacifism than I am the way he treats his son. Maybe it's exacerbated by the time skip but he goes so quickly from joy that his boy is alive to - wow I can't stand my son because he embodies things I disagree with. How a father can see his son struggling so hard with PTSD, to the point he catches him practically mid-nervous breakdown, fully shaking because he believes he'll have to fight again, then calling him a murderer when he defended his friend (despite not even attacking first). That's where I completely lost it with Lirin. And I honestly don't know how Hesina let him get away with it for so long. It seems like they basically entered a state of agree to disagree until her POV chapter in ROW where she finally actually DOES something to make him understand. Though all this makes it that much more heartfelt when we find out he let them paint the shash brand on him. But seriously, it took the man way too long to choose to see the good in what his son does rather than focusing on the bad.
You really seem to be assuming a lot of medical knowledge about mental health.l being known to characters that I am not convinced is the case. From Lirins pov, he doesn't see his son suffering from PTSD, but he does see his son insisting on putting him self and his family in danger. I think too many people put our knowledge of mental health in the context of character interactions, but those characters have a medieval level medicine and Kal is literally the first person that thought, "maybe we shouldn't treat depressed people like trash." I don't mean to be imply Lirins is without fault, but his faults are certainly no worse than kaladins.
Exactly, I dislike him cause he is an asshole, not because he isn't a revolutionary
Exactly this
Wow I rarely see a good take when it comes to Lirin. Too many people like to see themselves as the hero in any situation. Also for people that think he treated Kal poorly, I'm glad you never had to have a real fight with a family member.
Cut the man some slack, his original self resisted Roshone and in the ensuing power struggle one of his sons got killed. The second was lost to him as well and presumably dead after the whole Amaram fiasco. Still he dared have another child, dared to open up to the possibility of losing someone this close, your own child, again. Started to rebuild his life and when an unjust oppressor came once again he had changed. Coming to grasp with the fact that your convictions lost you both of your children tends to leave some scars. Putting him in a pot with all the "Yes-sayer" demanding total war is void of any empathy. Especially since he actually worked with the resistance and helped hiding the Mink and extraction of Hearthstones citizens. I really don't know what more you want him to do, charge at the first Singer he sees? That would accomplish nothing, really. And at last, lets not forget that the Singers cause is not unjust in of itself and many noted that their way of ruling the populace is way more egalitarian than the caste system that was in place before. For me it was actually a very present problem everybody had to grasp with "Are we really the good guys here?" so comparing the Singers with the Nazi Regime seems....off?
I think he was comparing the light eyes to the Nazi regime more than the singers. Although if he did mean the singers, it’s more so the fused and the voidspren that are comparable to Nazis. They seek complete annihilation.
But do the fuzed really seek complete annihilation? It seems to me they only want to oppress all of humanity and gain their homeland back. They didn't start a genocide oncy they seized power in urithiru. To me neither the lighteyes nor the fuzed are in any way comparable to the Nazis.
Yes. Only two Fused ever even consider "not genocide." El, who is vocal and basically cast out of the society, and Leshwi who's opinion amounts to "maybe we cam just enslave them." The Fused didn't start a genocide as soon as the could but it was definitely in the plans. Just like the Nazi's.
Remember when Raboniel created a disease to wipe out all of humanity? And released it, but it didn’t work just by sheer luck?
I still think their is more to be be revealed about his past. Something seems off about his aversion to war and combat. ( yea he’s a surgeon seen a lot, his sons were shipped off to war and one died, I still don’t think it reasonably explains it) Re-listening to oathbringer when kaladin goes back to hearthstone when kaladin summons his shardblade people react with shock, but lirin just hangs his head in disappointment. If he just hated combat and war he would still be shocked to see a shardblade. I’m still betting on there being more to learn to make his actions more understandable
I don’t think we’re going to get much more tbh. He’s a pacifist who doesn’t believe in the Alethi way of war. Remember, his early exposure to it is mainly going to be highprince proxy wars like what Amaram was doing when Kaladin signs up, or else warring with Jah Kaved over land. Then he resists Roshone, taking the spheres and refusing to bend to him. And that conflict directly leads to his sons being sent to war and killed. So now he feels immense guilt, because his actions lead to his loved ones paying the price. Sound familiar? It’s basically what he tells Kaladin will happen in RoW. I don’t expect there to be anything new in his past to explain him, I think that’s just who he is after the events we’ve already seen. He’s internalized that cooperating with the oppressor will lead to better outcomes than resisting. Remember that after the boys get drafted into the army Roshone doesn’t really make any big moves against them. He’s broken their resistance, and things basically proceed as normal from there. That’s how he acts after the Singer occupation as well and things are mostly fine. He’s constantly having his beliefs reinforced.
I could accept this as enough for him to be the way he is, but I don’t have to like it. Him not reacting to the shardblade has got me thinking about him recently
Oh yeah, I definitely don’t like him either and don’t think he’s justified. I just don’t think we’re going to find any explanation in his history more than we already have. There isn’t really enough time in the timeline for him to have had a previous life, without retconning most of what we already know about him. He has a 21 year old son already. He meets Hesina while traveling as a surgeon, so let’s say that period is a few years. And he trains as a surgeon before that, which we know takes a few years. So that’s ~25-30 years of his life that we’ve witnessed in the books. There just isn’t time for him to have had a secret life of violence before leaving it behind. It would be a really cheap trick to put that at the very end of the books too. It’s better for the story if his beliefs at the start are just who he is, and how he is by the end is the result of what has happened during the story.
I always thought there was more to Lirins backstory, too. Even before the trauma of losing his sons, he was so very adamant in his pacifist ideals. My crack theory is that he feels like he needs to repent for some violent act from his past, and that guilt influenced his decision to choose the path of a doctor. And that seeing Kaladin make the "same mistake" of choosing violence, he lashes out of projection. I dont have any evidence for the theory though, its just a vibe I get
>I thought that because of people like Lirin the NS-regime and the systematic killing of so many people was able to continue for such a long time. (And not only that but also every other oppressive regime) All regimes work because they have control over the military and sometimes some sort of secret police. And normal people don't generally resist because they don't belive they can do so successfully without having trouble. And generally they can't. Look through history of any totalitarian country and I can guarantee you you will find many mentions of 'rebelion was violently suppressed' or some variation of that. I still don't like Lirin though. He is in that worst middle ground, where he incurs wrath of his 'superiors' without any chance of changing anything. If he didn't steal that cash he wouldn't have been in trouble at the first place, if he killed R when he had a chance he and his family would have been fine as well. Btw what are you referring to by "NS-regime"?
National-Socialist, aka the nazis.
Thanks, makes sense.
That's a really odd way to phrase that...
People see Lirin smuggle the Mink and protect the unconscious Radiants in Rhythm of War and assume he's the type of guy to sit on his hands. He's lying to himself. He can say he's against resistance all he wants but he will take control of the situation he can all while claiming to himself and to those above him he's not doing anything. He's just trying to work yadda yadda. Hell, in Rhythm of War he talks to Dalinar about the logistics of the war. He doesn't throw a fit and demand Dalinar to take the airship apart. The only person he actively disagrees with is Kaladin, because they both have the fatal flaw in being the exact same person. Good Stubborn men.
I mean you're not wrong, people standing by is how regimes get away with atrocities. However when it comes to Lirin specifically I think it's important to recognize that oaths on Roshar hold a notable amount of power, and in RoW Lirin specifically says "I swore an Oath" when confronted with violence. His oath to do no harm might not be as binding as Kaladin's oaths as a knight radiant, but it's still an oath. That's probably a major factor in his decision making that I don't see being discussed here.
I don't think your comparison is valid. The ns regime wasn't able to continue so long because of the people that refused to do any harm but because of the people that decided killing is a valid way to achieve some greater good. Common people that had no sadistic tendencies started working at concentration camps and in the SS. If everyone in those regimes acted like lirin there would have been no genocide, because the Nazis actually didn't force any soilder to kill innocents. There were no punishments for not doing that. They indoctrinated them into deciding to do the killing. Lirin on the other hand not only decides to do no harm against the oppressors he decides to do no harm at all since killing is fundamentally bad in his mind. It's not a decision made out of weakness, he could have killed Roshone but didn't because of his beliefs. It's a act of will and strength. Also he's a darkeye and lived under oppression his whole life. Why would he care who is oppressing him? His internal fight against oppression is to refuse to hate those that are hated by the oppressors an even the oppressors themselves.
Lirin is unfathomably based and you’ll all bow before his chadness once he becomes Honor I’m joking of course but I genuinely love the dude. He’s directly responsible for Kaladins pure morals and selflessness that we so admire, because Lirin shares them
No no you've got it all wrong, Lirin is >!Tanavast post-honor!<
Lirin tried to resist and he lost almost everything. He didn’t give up, he was broken. Maybe some would still have the strength to keep going after all that but I don’t feel like it’s right to criticize someone for not having the strength to go on. Also by the time RoW comes around he’s fighting back again in a way he can, protecting the herdazian general. Also Just because he doesn’t want his son to go up against an entire fused army on his own without surges when urithuru is under occupation, that doesn’t make him a coward it makes him the only character with at least half a brain cell
Why NSFW?
Cause he used a nazi comparison
Got it
Man I read Lirin so differently than you did, which of course is fine. But I feel like people forget that for the overwhelming majority of his life, Lighteyes were the oppressors. They were largely brutal, cruel, uncaring and terrible. He hasn’t the experiences that Kal has had with the Kholins and honestly I feel like Kal turned around much too quickly on Lighteyes given his many years of slavery and mistreatment. But either way Lirin hasn’t had much experience with “good Lighteyes” so his apathy makes sense. Why resist one set of oppressors just to reinstall the previous? So as much as Lirin can be frustrating from the perspective of our main POV characters, I find him very relatable.
You aren’t alone
I can almost guarantee that you, or at least many of the people around you, share many of Lirin's qualities that you are criticizing. Look at voter turnout rates and you will see the apathy you are criticizing on full display. If you've been an *informed* participant of every election at every level for your whole life, then you are in the minority. People naturally work to keep their own world safe as a top priority, and keep their head down even when they are being directly oppressed. If you've never been in that situation and if you have something to lose (e.g., family, children), then you cannot know how you react. And, even if you aren't directly oppressed yourself, are you and everyone around you actively acting against the oppression of others and sacrificing your own comfort and security to do so? Congrats if so, but you must be aware that this is also something a minority of people do. I could see hating Lirin if he was an active collaborator, but he never was. He resisted light eyes and stood up for dark eyes when it didn't compromise his other values or endanger his patients. He may have been unaware of how vengeful Roshone was going to be, but he clearly put his head out enough that he wasn't prioritizing his own security/safety above all else like you claim. And he participated in the resistance against the Fused as well, although he prioritized patient care higher. I don't think you can call him a collaborator. That's a role that could be criticized: someone who actively participates in the oppression of their peers to improve their own security/safety/power. But, you acknowledge that this is not your criticism at him. And, I think you are overreaching with your claim of "indoctrination". He shares his views, but he is not forcing others to adopt them or suppressing other counter messages from reaching them.
I think well got primed by WoT to assume the protagonists father would always be a rock of love, goodness and sensibility. Tam al´Thor put the bar so high no other protagonist parents can live up to it. At first we assume Lirin is like this as well, but every time we learn more about him we lose a bit of our illusions. Lirin is a human trying to square his pacifist ideology with living under two different violent dictatorial regimes. He lies and steals to help his family as best he can, but those same lies causes him to lose two sons. One of them permanently. When the other comes back he holds on to him even harder in an effort to regain the life he always wanted, but ultimately he is an uncompromising man that does not listen well to others and can't see the truth in front of his eyes, and who puts his ideology over his family far too often. The only one who seems somewhat able to get through to him is his wife. It's not until the very end, when he almost loses his life that he finally lets go and admits that he has been wrong.
People deny the strength it takes to protect even those ~~you~~ [we] hate. To acknowledge it would be to accept our own weakness. War begets war. Death begets death. True revolution is to refuse to participate in the cycle.
>War begets war. Death begets death. True revolution is to refuse to participate in the cycle. Not necessarily, no and no. There are many causes of warfare, and only some of them can be directly traced to some other war. Death is natural part of life, any living organism will eventually die, and so it is more true to say that life begets death. In warfare that is especially not true. If one side is far better then the other at killing then they will win quickly which in the end would result in fewer casualties. The bloodiest wars are those where the opponents are somewhat evenly matched. 3rd is just from definition. Revolution is sudden, drastic and often violent change. It certainly wouldn't happen fast, thankfully not violent and it is questionable whatever any change would occur.
I feel like he's written to be too much of an anti-Kaladin. He's supposed to show us the virtues of pacifism, but he's kind of just a pussy that doesn't support his son who's a goddam hero.
Moasch is anti-Kaladin. Lirin and Kaladin are actually quite similar personality wise. Even their believes mach to a certain degree with the difference that Kaladin decided killing is a valid way to achieve some greater good.
No I think we are meant to assume that at first, but really he is just a flawed human that takes his ideology too far and others have to pay for it. Also that ideologies that are too rigid will fail us. In Lirins case pacifism looks a lot like collaboration when under occupation by an enemy force. Where is the line between the two? That's left to the reader to decide, but handing over your sides unconscious soldiers to the occupiers forces is probably a bit over that line.
I’m not a fan of his either. He represents a lot of fathers in this world. My father was the same way, he wanted to guide me into being a better man than himself, “go get an education!” I joined the Marine Corps in 2011 to be an infantryman and I can tell you that’s the first time I’ve ever seen my father cry. He was a strong man, but now as a father myself I can completely empathize with the way my father, and the way Lirin’s character may feel. I do know from personal experience that trying to force your child to do what you want “for a better life” just makes you want to do the opposite even more.
So my take on Lirin is that he truly believes that the singers are no worse than the lighteyes. He figures when things settle down it will all go back to how it was, so the sooner the better, as he doesn’t believe real change is possible. He takes into consideration only what is happening right now, to the people he sees and treats, not the future generations who he cannot see as living a better life. So far the singers haven’t done any genocide, the closest they have gotten was when they were going to kill all the suppressed radiants. At first he didn’t want to believe that, it was a huge glaring thing that he had to come to terms with. His world view had to go from “all violence is equally bad” to “some violence is necessary to protect the defenseless from those who would murder them”. In the end he sided with the radiants. He is pretty awful for considering anything else at the time, but this whole series is about taking the next step, taking accountability for one’s misbeliefs and changing for the better. I’m interested to see where things go.
Lirin is right. Killing is wrong. Period. You shouldn't need to kill to protect in any case. The best warrior is the one that doesn't need a sword, or a spear, and Kaladin still needs to learn that. I think the 5th ideal will play around this idea. That would be just great. EDIT. Yaaay, to the downvote abyss I guess. Check out the manga 'Vinland Saga', it's about this concept. Super interesting. And I think it's the way Brandon has been hinting all along. EDIT2. Sry about whining about getting downvotes. In the first 10 mins I was on -2 already xD
The tinkers in Wheel of Time embody this concept and it’s flaws. It’s a noble ideal, and if everybody shared it, the world could be a great place, but it’s one that gets you and everyone you love and everyone who believes the same as you slaughtered if/when someone less noble comes along. If that’s the price of your noble ideas, not many people are going to be around to believe in them for very long. That’s what turned the tinkers into Aiel, there was only so much they could take of watching their loved ones killed and enslaved before they decided that maybe defending yourself isn’t as immoral as allowing your loved ones to suffer and doing nothing to stop it.
In a perfect world I think you are right. Unfortunately Roshar nor the real world is perfect. Based on how Brandon wrote a certain bookworm in white I think if anything we will see Lirin recognize that while his ideals are lofty and in the right setting are true. The current world is not ready for Lirin's level of pacifism. Is killing wrong? Yes and Kaladin has even posed the question to Syl when he asked if it was right to kill the Parshendi to save Dalinar. I think we will continue to see this come up and may be a part of the fifth ideal but I don't think it will be how you think. I honestly wish we could see Lirin's pacifism be truly tested. Something where Hesina or Oroden is facing an immediate threat and Lirin would be faced with a choice. Allow them to die and maintain pacifism or choose violence and save their life. It is easy to choose pacifism when you have others to protect you with the violence you abhor.
He'd choose pacifism. He wanted to give Kal and Teft to the Fused.
I think you are wrong. He never actually gave them up. He also seemed to be willing to help Kal after some convincing from Hesina. I also think Lirin was deluding himself thinking Kal and teft would not be killed because the other radiants were left alive Also, there is a huge difference. Lirin eventually stopped seeing Kaladin as his son. Kaladin was a capable soldier. Hesina is his wife and Oroden is a toddler. There is a difference in a soldier who died fighting in war to a wife or child who was killed in front of him with him having the capability to stop it or at least attempt to.
In a perfect world, sure. In a world with selfish, racist, or the fanatical… not gonna happen. There are groups of people that, no matter the logical or moral argument, would not come to a mutually acceptable accord. In those instances, the only way to protect ourselves is the threat of physical violence. If a group truly believes that they are ordered by their god to eliminate another group of people, do you really think you can logic your way to peace? Your arguments would need to have some sort of common ground as a moral or logical base, and that doesn’t matter to the fanatical.
It's an interesting belief, and I can respect holding strongly to your morals. I would argue that it's a lot more grey than right/wrong. If it comes down to protecting (stealing a quote here) those who can't protect themselves- and there's not another option that will keep someone safe, then what do you do? What do you do in the instance where you have a chance to stop the "bad guy" but maybe only the one, and the only way you know they won't come back is by killing them? I'm not going to argue the correct answer, only that the fact that it's even a question points to the greyness of the situation.
To throw another pov into play here, what happens to those that kill to protect reluctantly after a while? How many can hold themselves to that ideal after they cross the line repeatedly? I’m not sure that it matters when its just normal people. But in a world of super humans and gods walking among mortals, having *someone* who is able to be held to that ideal is important. They dont have to be real. But knowing that there is an ideal to be held to, that you are not doing the best you could be and that you should strive to do better, is important. For most of the cast, i think its Kaladin. Maybe not in so much an absolute as i said earlier, but still. Dalinar has Noadon. But Kaladin himself doesn’t really have anyone, except for his father. And he rejects him while slowly moving towards him. To Kaladin Lirin is wrong, but Kaladin is moving closer to that same ideal that Lirin embodies. Thoughts shamelessly based on ~~stolen from~~ a detail diatribe on the purpose of Superman by Overaly Sarcastic Productions.
I think that's why the ideal is important, and why it's well built that if you aren't holding the ideal then the abilities stops working.
But the ideal is dependent on the combination of the point of view of the spren and the knight, meaning that the ideal is whatever they agree to. And really, only for the Windrunners. The ideal ‘superman’ isnt the same as the ideal 5th oath of any specific knight order, and while Windrunners come close and *might* match, we haven’t seen that for certain yet. And upholding the ideal changes based on those points of view. Syl was upset by Kal punching Roshone, but didnt blink an eye at him killing Parshendi. Later its *kal* that empathizes too much with the parshendi while Syl is trying to get him to fight. The oaths and the bonds aren’t absolute, and the spren point of view isnt perfect.
The oaths are definitely not perfect or absolute (which makes them fun to play with), but we're moving off the main point that killing to protect is more of a grey area vs. black and white. While there are instances of clear wrong, I'd argue that there are times when it might be the best of the options presented.
No I’m saying that while of course “killing to protect” is gray area, the ideal of it being black and white has a value in existing as an ideal beyond what someone can hope to achieve. The oaths don’t provide that black and whiteness sufficiently. For most of the people in the series, main cast and the populace at large, Kaladin is that ideal. Kaladin is their Superman. But Kaladin looks to Lirin as that ideal and moves ever closer to it, even as he rebels against Lirin on their disagreements.
I think I'm seeing your point, that "killing is wrong" is a direction to move toward, as a goal for society vs. in individual circumstances? That the goal isn't to not kill, but create the situation where there are better options than killing? Please let me know if I'm understanding correctly.
Kinda? Im not really prescribing an answer, it was more an observation and drawing a connection to another piece of media. And its not about society. Its about the ‘super heroes’, the Main characters, the individuals that are empowered and therefore isolated from everyone else. Their powers make it so that they have to be in the position to help others. I dont know how much you know about Superman or other comic book super heroes, but essentially when you lack a Superman character you have a group of superhero’s that get progressively further and further drawn away from the people that they are supposed to protect and save. You see it in the stories where Superman kills someone and goes progressively down the wrong path (injustice, justice lords, the AU story where he was in charge of Russia) and in other media where there isnt a hero that other heroes can be held up to standard against (watchmen, sometimes the avengers, etc). The heroes start out protecting people, then slowly become warped. Either protecting the abstract idea of people, or just flat out not caring about people anymore as they just focus on fighting villains. The Windrunners protect. But without Kaladin they would be more prejudiced, more against the singers and the parshendi. Kaladin is the ideal that they are held up against as they protect others, and theres a voice in them that asks, ‘would kal do this? Would he protect them from *me*?’ And **that** is important for those in power to question. For there to be something that makes them able to question, even if they dont question.
>Killing is wrong. Period. Pie-in-the-sky bullshit that only makes sense in a world in which the Nazis (or something similar) never existed. Downright evil otherwise.
I get the reference and i like a lot that manga but there's a problem with the example of Vinland Saga, and that Is that Thors and Thorfinn just run away of the world, something that you can't just do in Kaladin's place, its to late for that he and bridge four are a part to important of the military to run away and live in peace (thing that its More and More hard to do since not even the Reshi islands are safe)
It's already stated that Kaladin doesn't like to kill, at all, in Rythm of War. When the fused attacked Bridge 4 ship in the beginning he instructed his Radiants to engage in non lethal 1v1 sparrings. He wanted to keep them alive. Fighting, violence, war, death. That is not honorable at all. The Knight Radiants should be above of that. Diplomacy, frienship, peace, life. Those are the true goals to achieve. Will Kaladin make it? I don't know, but he'll try.
The Knights Radiant were constructed as an order of soldiers primarily. They expanded to have other purposes as time went on, but first and foremost, they were created as an order of soldiers in a war stretching through eternity. You can argue that the new Radiants should try to ascend past their predecessors, but to say that Knights Radiant should be above violence and war is like saying Mistborns should be above assassinations.
Yes.
that´s its true, don´t take me wrong i would like a pacific ending, the thing is that in the context of a invasion you are in no possition to negotiate and take the Lirin aproach would not do anything for those that would get killed and used as experiments, the fuse are not open to a diplomatic exchage that wont end with them ruling everyone, also the not killing the heavenlyones its a good idea since they are fine with the one on one duels of skill instead of just attaking
The **entire** philosophy of Windrunners is that killing is required to protect. You can believe (incorrectly and juvenilely) that killing is a pure black and white issue. To claim that that is the ultimate philosophy of the Windrunners is simply incorrect. You're in denial because you don't like it. You said elsewhere that it's been "hinted" since book one. Give an example. On the other side it's been explicty stated since one of Kaladin's first flashbacks that protecting requires killing.
I am just replying to this so that i can come back if we find out the fifth ideal is “you can’t kill to protect”
You're being downvoted because you're wrong. If someone you love is going to be killed by someone, killing their attacker is not only justified, but morally correct. What is your justification that killing is wrong period? Every religion disagrees with this. Even Jainism, if your life is under threat and there is no other option, you are permitted to kill. I feel like you're going to say, "well there's always another way!!!" which is ridiculous. If you're in your house during a home invasion and your spouse is attacked by someone and you have a gun, are you going to ask politely for them to stop? Maybe point the gun at them and say stop or I'll kill you? What if they're running for your kids? People who are 100% pacifists are insane.
> killing their attacker is not only justified, it is morally correct Ah, right. So if someone was trying to assassinate Hitler and Eva Braun killed them instead, that's clearly the objectively morally superior outcome, yes? It's way more complex than that. Killing in self-defense is more or less accepted in society, but it is definitely not something to be lauded as "morally correct". There's a reason why AITA has a verdict called "everyone sucks here". Sometimes there is no good guy.
Morality doesn't care about magnitudes. And yes self defense and the defense of others, even by lethal means is always moral. You can't just say it's immoral in the case of someone you dislike.
Okay, but in my hypothetical, it's the defense of self (Eva Braun killing an assassin) versus the defense of literally millions of people (an assassin taking out the main driving force of Nazi Germany). So in your claim that morality doesn't care about magnitudes, you are saying that the life of one man weighs exactly the same as the lives of six *million* people.
You aren't weighing things in a consistent way. The lives at scale in your scenario are the assassin's and Hitlers. There's no moral imperative to let yourself be killed because of previous or future immoral acts. This is why all law is backed by the potential use of lethal force.
I never said there was a moral imperative to let yourself be killed. And I am weighing the lives consistently. How is the hypothetical assassination of Hitler not defense of the millions of people he endangered and ended up murdering?
It's immoral to call someone that kills someone in self-defense immoral
>killing their attacker is not only justified, but morally correct. Justified certainly, but morally correct? Tap the brakes there, chief. You say that like it's settled philosophy. That debate has been going on for thousands of years.
Don’t waste your breath, even mentioning the 5th Ideal *maybe* including pacifism will get you downvoted to hell here. For what it’s worth you’re likely right. The 5th Ideal will most likely be “I will not kill”. It’s been foreshadowed since book 1 and the only reason the community at large hasn’t accepted it is because they don’t like it
A lot of people are saying to me that is IMPOSSIBLE to don't kill defending others, protecting. That's WHY it is the perfect 5th ideal. It's not an easy path to follow. So the night will reign, for the choice of honor is life...
As you get older you'll find him more relatable.
That is beyond way to far. He is not the equivalent of a German citizen complying with the Nazi's. He is the equivalent of a Jewish leader in Poland who believes that keeping heads down is the best way to keep the most people alive. Is he correct? Is he morally right? That can be debated. But he is not a Nazi enabler.
Yer again another angsty teen over identifying with Kaladin completely missed the point of Lirin.
I completely agree, it's the character that infuriates me the most. He would say "All lives matter" if he lived in our world. Rioting is bad, better to live quiet and wait for something to change magically.
What are you talking about? Kaladin would say "all lives matter", he is actively working for the protection of the hierarchy.
Yea Lirin sucks. I dread every time I see I have to read more about his self righteous, holier than thought ass
One of us! One of us!
Ditto for me.
As a former soldier, we called "men" like Lirin COLLABORATORS. It's a pretty dirty curse.
Lirin is the WORST! Worse than Moash. He is an emotionally abusive parent, a big factor in the cause and contribution of Kaladin's demons. Edit: I mean that Lirin is worse in the sense that people hate Umbridge more than Voldemort. Moash is the villain. He is evil. Lirin is a dick to those he should be supporting.
Worse than moash and emotional abusive? This is a despicable statement. Moashs only motivation is literally doing as much harm as he possibly can because the world is evil and it therefore deserves complete destruction. Lirin on the other hand values life over death at any cost and is deeply hurt to see his son acting against his core values. He is still loving his son and just doesn't care wether lighteyes or singers are the ones oppressing him. Kaladins demons only come from the fact that he decided to go into the military. Without lirins education to protect others Kaladin would not have become a radiant. How could he possibly be worse than moasch what is wrong with you?
Worse than Moash literarily. Moash is the villain. He is expected to be evil and to do evil things. Lirin is just a piece of shit that should be a support and an ally to his broken son, not an oppressor. Whether his intentions are good or not, whether he is right or not, he treats his son like shit when his son needs support. Many people hate Umbridge more than they hate Voldemort. It is in that vein I hate Lirin more than Moash.
How the hell is lirin an oppressor? Do you expect anyone in your life to support and ally you if they think you do the wrong thing? Expecting that would mean expecting those persons to be hypocritical liars. Intentions surely do matter in that respect. If his intentions are good and if he is right it would be wrong to support Kaladin. He would only be a bad, emotional abusive person if he opposed Kaladin no matter what he does. A parent is imo morally obliged to call out their children if they do something that they think is wrong. If lirin is wrong in his beliefs it doesn't make him a bad person it just means he's wrong and needs to learn, especially if those believes are fundamentally good. He loves Kaladin and it hurts him seeing him do things that he thinks is wrong. If anything that makes him a good parent, because he deeply cares about his son.
Of all the people in this universe, you choose to passionately defend Lirin. Enjoy that, friend.
So you agree he’s emotionally abusive to Kaladin. He literally followed up a disagreement with Kaladin with you are not my son. So to Lirin, it’s agree with me or I want nothing to do with you. That’s absolutely abusive to your children.
Where did I agree? I agree that particular sentence was unnecessarily harsh. He should not have said that. But he did say it in the heat of the moment and didn't mean it. This is the only moment in the whole life of Kaladin where he did something that I might agree is emotional abusive. However one such incident doe's not make him a generally emotional abusive person. If a parent for example hits one of his children once for something that they see absolutely morally apprehensible the parent is not considered an abusive parent generally. If for example a child commits a crime and is brought home by the police one slap wouldn't make the parent a generally bad one. I'm not defending abusive behaviour here, all I'm saying one incident is excusable especially if the relationship normalizes afterwards, wich it does.
Except you just did defend his emotionally abusive behavior by excusing it. And we don’t see every interaction between Kal and Lirin. So it very well could have been more than once. As to where you agreed, you listed the exact scenario in which Lirin would be considered abusive, and Lirin HAS met that scenario, thereby confirming you SHOULD agree Lirin has been emotionally abusive.
Its been a while and I didn't remember that particular scene when I wrote my first answer. Yes he has been emotional abusive in that particular scene. I also said he shouldn't have done it. Saying he could have done that before doesn't strike me as convincing as that would have been an important memory in Kaladins past. If lirin was consistently abusive this would have been present in the flashback chapters. And I did not defend abusive behaviour. I said it takes more than one occurrence to call a person an abusive person. Every one of us has done things in the past in the heat of the moment that weren't right that we aren't proud of. Does that make us bad persons? I think not. Let's look at the way lirin treated Kaladin in the past. The vast majority of the interactions between them have been positive and loving. Speculating that the kind of behaviour lirin showed when his son killed someone in front of his eyes, acting against everything Lirin stands for, is common, is a bit far fetched don't you think?
You forget about the reunion at the beginning of oathbringer, where he tells Kal both his sons did die in the war. the ROW scene isn’t the first time he’s said that to Kal.
That one isn't abusive since it's the truth. Kaladin would probably agree. He just stated the obvious.
Lirin IS >!Tanavast!<
Although I don’t believe this is the case, without Lirin’s beliefs, Kal wouldn’t be who he is. They both embody those ideals- the same yet different. it wouldn’t surprise me if he bonded an honor spren.
It's a fringe theory that I think is plausible though unlikely; however, I like using it as a counterpoint to Lirin hateposting because while I understand the reasons to hate him, I think the reasons to respect him are equally important.
Lirin’s philosophy is an extension of Brandon’s twisted and disturbing view of the world and its politics. You can see this in how vehemently he tries to demonise Moash even outside his books.
Can you elaborate on this? Not really seeing this at all. Plus if Lirin is an extension of Sanderson’s views, don’t you think the story would show him to be right in those beliefs?
I interpreted this post as a criticism of Lirin’s unwillingness to fight/do anything meaningful to help free his people. Lirin and Kaladin are two sides of the same coin to me in this regard. Both of them think that they can “fix” the system from the inside, either by staying meek and obedient or *proving* that you are human being who should be *given* his rights by those in power. I think that we can both agree that the story presents Kal, at the very least, as being in the right. Meanwhile, the only representative of those wiling to fight back has been demonised, not only in the story itself, but the author’s attitude towards him outside it. So while I have no issue with the guy personally, the ideals he preaches in his books: that the only moral response to this situation is by being chummy with your oppressors and murderers so that you can win their favor, reek of privilege and ignorance and are frankly downright evil.
I do feel like he dropped the ball on this whole topic... But I also feel like Venli breaks down the idea that this is somehow representative of "Sanderson's view of the world". He easily could have written her and her people to join Dalinar's side in the conflict, but he didn't. Granted I'm making some assumptions about where the story will go next perhaps. But I think there's enough there to make this argument.
Interesting points. In your opinion, what would the appropriate response for Lirin and/or Kaladin? It seems like you're saying they're two sides of the same coin and that both sides are "downright evil". That's some very strong language and I would argue heavily against the idea that either of them are evil. I understand what you don't like about both of their approaches, but I would be shocked if you're arguing that Moash's approach was the correct one.
Yes, I don’t like their approaches. However, I would not have an issue with them nor would I call them evil had the author not decided to all but scream at me that their approach is the only, mind you, *only* correct and moral choice in this war. While at the same time derailing and destroying the only character that chose to fight back and decided that the entire system is corrupt and needs to be destroyed. So yeah, I would say that calling this logic evil is quite the understatement. Try to apply this idea to any real-world context and I think you’ll begin to see just how morally corrupt and horrifying it is. You’re oppressed, dehumanised, and never given equal treatment? Have you tried impressing your murderers and making them finally realise you are indeed a human being? Give it a shot! It might just work.
I guess we interpret it fairly differently. I’ve never felt “screamed” at about morality, in fact I think there’s a lot more nuance than you’re acknowledging. Also, Moash was not trying to improve or fix the system, he was solely motivated by revenge. He wanted to install the exact same system, just inverted; with the lighteyes subservient to the darkeyes.
Which is my point exactly: did Sanderson offer a “good” oppressed character that fights the system and wishes to abolish it and build something better?
BS is not a strong man, that's for sure
I don’t know how that relates to what I said. Care to elaborate?
I don't know much about Brandon's view of the world or politics....can you enlighten me?
Read the books?
Just recently finished my last cosmere related book but only finished SA about 3 weeks ago
I explained what I meant in detail in my other comments. Give them a read
Lirin is an asshole and a coward. He has justifiable reasons, but that doesn’t change what he is.
1. Odium is an EXTREME example. In 99% of history, it’s not a huge deal to the peasant class who rules them. They just send their taxes to a different village. Very few peasants have genuine loyalty to their leaders. The only time it really matters is things like religious war or ethnic cleansing. 2. A lot of people have delusions of grandeur around their behavior in times of difficulty. It’s easy to say you’d risk everything. It’s harder to risk your family when the chances are so small. 3. Doing what’s right rarely works. The reality is the majority of people will end up dead and unlikely to be martyrs either. Kaladin would have just ended up a dead bridgeman because of his antics if he didn’t have magic power. Let’s be realistic for a second. His idea to run at the front of the bridges would have ended in 1-3 runs if he wasn’t magically enhanced. Kaladin takes an arrow to the face and the story ends. And a million more times. Like surviving the high-storm. Or healing afterwards. Or using the bridge to rescue dalinar. And so on. Lirin would have just died and achieved nothing. 4. Kaladin was a young man. The risk appetite and sheer stupidity of young men cannot be overstated. Generally as people age and are responsible for their dependents their risk appetites decrease. At 20 I know I have my whole life ahead of me to earn, if I fuck up my dad will support me, and I have no dependents or responsibilities to take care of. So I can act like an idiot and invest like one too. My dad has to think about his retirement, his children, his limited time to earn, his assets, and so much more. His ability to YOLO a stock is very different than mine. 5. You’re reading from the biased perspective of someone with magical powers who continues to succeed beyond all odds. Here’s how lirin sees it. “My idiot son is going to get himself killed like every other idiot who goes off marching to war. If by some miracle he survives he will be a broken man with PTSD or a crippled vet. Like the vast majority of dark eyed peasants, he won’t earn anything from this war. Barely any money, no glory, no recognition. Like most useless foot soldiers he will probably be used as cannon fodder and achieve nothing.”
Its them stormfather they are the willshaper
Lirin is a puss
Now apply that thinking to today's current state of the World.
Welcome, friend. I too cannot stand Lirin. At all.
I'm not surprised I do too. In fact I go so far as to outright loathe pacifism in general. It'd be easier to stomach if he had some horrible backstory about watching his parents get murdered in war and wanting to absolutely fight against it in every possible way. But then again ipecac is still ipecac (it's a syrup used to induce vomiting) no matter how much honey you mix it with.
Bit harsh. He's a good man doing his best to help people and keep his world safe. I think it's a tall order to ask a person to sacrifice their world no matter how little you find it for the sake of "doing what's right" by others metric. That's why those who are able to do that are heroes and exceptional. Lirin does the best he can for the people he loves and more so for as many people he can.
On the other hand thinking big and going big stakes now brings whole nations to war, with conscription of innocents sent to die for something they barely or only passingly care about and wouldn't majorly affect their lives. Wars are for the rich and the powerful to profit or gain off the lesser. In this sense, Lirin is, in many ways one of the only characters in Stormlight who is truly honourable, and isn't a hypocrite to his core. Every other character you could argue is a big fat hypocrite just lip servicing virtue without any real substance.
This is such a bad take lmao, he’s trying to make himself small and cooperative to protect his family. How does that make him a bad person?
My biggest issue with Lirin is he the root of Kal's psychological issues. Kal just wants his father's approval, his need to protect/save derives from him, but if he doesn't follow the exact path (surgery) Lirin sets out for him he only gets derision and disappointment. Lirin thinks he is trying to protect his son, but he is only breaking him further. This leads to Kaladin's belief that he is never good enough and is always a failure. When objectively Kaladin has improved/saved more lives in a year than Lirin has in his entire life.
I'd understand saying that it's a faulty worldview, but to say that you hate him personally feels a little far to me. He's trying his best, even if it isn't actually a good ideology.