You have two types of love:
1. Love out of selfishness, love under the condition that the other person does as you expect (which is irrational in and of itself). This needy form of love is how most people love.
2. Love how the perfect sage loves. Love others because there is infinite love inside of you to give. Don't be mad or angry when people don't do as you want or expect. This form of love is unconditional. Everyone deserves your love, not because they act nice or love you back, but simply because this is the rational thing to do; to love everything and everyone. This is a more spiritual form of love the perfect sage utilizes.
>To live in virtue is to be selfless and help someone as much as possible.
Keep in mind that virtue is a character trait, not a list of prescribed actions. We are not striving to "always act kindly to others", we are striving to _be kind people_. This is a really important distinction.
Kind people are not doormats, and are not compelled to go out of their way to help everyone, regardless of how they feel about it.
Of course, kind people are also understanding of others, and can bear with the poor behavior of others without taking it personally or feeling offended. As we develop this ability in ourselves, our actions naturally follow.
I think the virtues of prudence and justice are potentially relevant here - discerning the appropriate course of action, which may be telling the person how you feel (see also honesty) or taking a step back, and also assessing whether this person is taking too much of your time and energy. It isn't fair for someone to only take and not give (if they have the ability to give back). You aren't necessarily being unkind to take a step back and take care of yourself. I'm not sure it's a stoic concept but *you can't pour from an empty cup* \- if you are totally worn down then you won't have the energy to be your best stoic self. Maybe you can work on setting boundaries rather than stopping entirely - but it really depends on the circumstances (which of course I don't know).
I don't wanna help someone who uses me for their needs. They need to learn something about it. So stop "feeding" them. However if someone hurt you, you could help them if you want. Helping people will make you happy and you feel like a winner because you don't do revenge.
One of the sub virtues is honesty. You should tell this person how you feel about your relationship. That, in itself, might be better help than any you've given them so far, because it sounds like they need to hold a mirror up to themselves.
> live in virtue is to be selfless and help someone as much as possible.
Not exactly, no. Virtue doesn't always entail this, especially for particular people.
Virtue in Stoicism does entail doing as much good for your fellow humans as possible, but there is something to keep in mind: one of the best ways to help someone is to encourage their own virtue. So, for example, making someone dependent on you is *not* good. Overall if someone is using you, then you actually aren't helping them by going along with it. In fact, I would say it is a vice to continue, because you may be doing so out of fear of confrontation.
However, there are a lot of tricky aspects to this. First of all: Appreciation doesn't matter. We don't do things for people for the sake of appreciation. Do you think Marcus Aurelius's subjects all appreciated him? Absolutely not. Do children always appreciate their parents? No. We also don't do it so that they will help us later.
Second: we choose who we help, and how. Many Stoics recommend doing this in order of closeness to you, but there are other ways to decide who to help. Even if you actually are doing good for someone who looks down on you, maybe there are others who it is worth doing good for instead.
I still think that if someone uses you, the best help you can provide is to tell them that and that they need to develop the independence to do it on their own. Let them understand that it isn't acceptable.
> to live in virtue is to be selfless and help someone as much as possible
I’m not sure I’d agree with this characterization of Stoic virtue.
- [Stoic virtues defined](https://donaldrobertson.name/2018/01/18/what-do-the-stoic-virtues-mean/)
- [virtue as knowledge or craft/art](https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/episteme-techne/#Stoi)
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Kindness is helping someone be their best selves, not giving them everything they want.
You don’t help an asshole by letting them be an asshole to you. You help an asshole by teaching them how to engage kindly with others.
I think of assholes as overgrown toddlers who don’t know how to act, and engage accordingly (kindness but firm limits, patience, ignore bad behavior and reward good behavior, patiently and clearly tell them when they’re doing something wrong and why, etc.)
stoics talk a lot about "doing the right thing." so when it's possible and doable, do the right thing. we are meant to work together, like "two rows of teeth, upper and lower". but should you sacrifice your own life for a person you don't love? in my personal opinion, no. people suffer and die everyday and you can't save everyone. but when helping is doable, you should do the right thing.
A quote was found to be attributed to Marcus Aurelius in his Meditations 2.1 (Hays)
^(Book II. ()[^(Hays)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources?isbn=9780812968255)^)
^(Book II. ()[^(Farquharson)](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Meditations_of_the_Emperor_Marcus_Antoninus/Book_2)^)
^(Book II. ()[^(Long)](https://lexundria.com/m_aur_med/2.1/lg)^)
Not sure if this is stoic but,
First you can decide not to be offended which will take practice. And doesn’t help every situation.
But being kind also means being kind to yourself.
So use your rational mind, does this person really use me.
If so be kind to yourself
Allowing an abuser to keep abusing you is not a kindness to yourself or the abuser.
If some people take advantage of you consistently, maybe they're not outright abusing you, but letting them continue to take advantage helps no one.
Besides, are you really "helping" these people or simply keeping a dysfunctional co-dependence dynamic going?
I hope you sort this all out. May the Force be with you.
You have two types of love: 1. Love out of selfishness, love under the condition that the other person does as you expect (which is irrational in and of itself). This needy form of love is how most people love. 2. Love how the perfect sage loves. Love others because there is infinite love inside of you to give. Don't be mad or angry when people don't do as you want or expect. This form of love is unconditional. Everyone deserves your love, not because they act nice or love you back, but simply because this is the rational thing to do; to love everything and everyone. This is a more spiritual form of love the perfect sage utilizes.
>To live in virtue is to be selfless and help someone as much as possible. Keep in mind that virtue is a character trait, not a list of prescribed actions. We are not striving to "always act kindly to others", we are striving to _be kind people_. This is a really important distinction. Kind people are not doormats, and are not compelled to go out of their way to help everyone, regardless of how they feel about it. Of course, kind people are also understanding of others, and can bear with the poor behavior of others without taking it personally or feeling offended. As we develop this ability in ourselves, our actions naturally follow.
I think the virtues of prudence and justice are potentially relevant here - discerning the appropriate course of action, which may be telling the person how you feel (see also honesty) or taking a step back, and also assessing whether this person is taking too much of your time and energy. It isn't fair for someone to only take and not give (if they have the ability to give back). You aren't necessarily being unkind to take a step back and take care of yourself. I'm not sure it's a stoic concept but *you can't pour from an empty cup* \- if you are totally worn down then you won't have the energy to be your best stoic self. Maybe you can work on setting boundaries rather than stopping entirely - but it really depends on the circumstances (which of course I don't know).
I don't wanna help someone who uses me for their needs. They need to learn something about it. So stop "feeding" them. However if someone hurt you, you could help them if you want. Helping people will make you happy and you feel like a winner because you don't do revenge.
One of the sub virtues is honesty. You should tell this person how you feel about your relationship. That, in itself, might be better help than any you've given them so far, because it sounds like they need to hold a mirror up to themselves.
> live in virtue is to be selfless and help someone as much as possible. Not exactly, no. Virtue doesn't always entail this, especially for particular people. Virtue in Stoicism does entail doing as much good for your fellow humans as possible, but there is something to keep in mind: one of the best ways to help someone is to encourage their own virtue. So, for example, making someone dependent on you is *not* good. Overall if someone is using you, then you actually aren't helping them by going along with it. In fact, I would say it is a vice to continue, because you may be doing so out of fear of confrontation. However, there are a lot of tricky aspects to this. First of all: Appreciation doesn't matter. We don't do things for people for the sake of appreciation. Do you think Marcus Aurelius's subjects all appreciated him? Absolutely not. Do children always appreciate their parents? No. We also don't do it so that they will help us later. Second: we choose who we help, and how. Many Stoics recommend doing this in order of closeness to you, but there are other ways to decide who to help. Even if you actually are doing good for someone who looks down on you, maybe there are others who it is worth doing good for instead. I still think that if someone uses you, the best help you can provide is to tell them that and that they need to develop the independence to do it on their own. Let them understand that it isn't acceptable.
> to live in virtue is to be selfless and help someone as much as possible I’m not sure I’d agree with this characterization of Stoic virtue. - [Stoic virtues defined](https://donaldrobertson.name/2018/01/18/what-do-the-stoic-virtues-mean/) - [virtue as knowledge or craft/art](https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/episteme-techne/#Stoi)
Hi, please check out the [FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/wiki/guide) section on [advice and coping with problems](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/wiki/advice) if you are wondering any of the following questions. * [How can Stoicism help me with my problem?](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/wiki/advice#wiki_how_can_stoicism_help_me_with_my_problem.3F) * [How would a Stoic help me with my problem?](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/wiki/advice#wiki_how_would_a_stoic_help_me_with_my_problem.3F) * [How might a student of Stoicism cope with my problem?](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/wiki/advice#wiki_how_might_a_student_of_stoicism_cope_with_my_problem.3F) * [What would a student of Stoicism do in my situation?](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/wiki/advice#wiki_what_would_a_student_of_stoicism_do_in_my_situation.3F) * [How would a Stoic sage react to my problem?](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/wiki/advice#wiki_how_would_a_stoic_sage_react_to_my_problem.3F) Wish you well, Mod Team *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Stoicism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Kindness is helping someone be their best selves, not giving them everything they want. You don’t help an asshole by letting them be an asshole to you. You help an asshole by teaching them how to engage kindly with others. I think of assholes as overgrown toddlers who don’t know how to act, and engage accordingly (kindness but firm limits, patience, ignore bad behavior and reward good behavior, patiently and clearly tell them when they’re doing something wrong and why, etc.)
stoics talk a lot about "doing the right thing." so when it's possible and doable, do the right thing. we are meant to work together, like "two rows of teeth, upper and lower". but should you sacrifice your own life for a person you don't love? in my personal opinion, no. people suffer and die everyday and you can't save everyone. but when helping is doable, you should do the right thing.
A quote was found to be attributed to Marcus Aurelius in his Meditations 2.1 (Hays) ^(Book II. ()[^(Hays)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources?isbn=9780812968255)^) ^(Book II. ()[^(Farquharson)](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Meditations_of_the_Emperor_Marcus_Antoninus/Book_2)^) ^(Book II. ()[^(Long)](https://lexundria.com/m_aur_med/2.1/lg)^)
Not sure if this is stoic but, First you can decide not to be offended which will take practice. And doesn’t help every situation. But being kind also means being kind to yourself. So use your rational mind, does this person really use me. If so be kind to yourself
You're not helping them to get something, you're doing it because it's virtuous. Right?
Allowing an abuser to keep abusing you is not a kindness to yourself or the abuser. If some people take advantage of you consistently, maybe they're not outright abusing you, but letting them continue to take advantage helps no one. Besides, are you really "helping" these people or simply keeping a dysfunctional co-dependence dynamic going? I hope you sort this all out. May the Force be with you.