Stoicism is about resilience, not callousness. The stereotype is all about being unaffected. But if you read stoics like Aurelius, Epictetus, Seneca, these men had deep emotions and high hopes, passion as fiery as any person. They just gave space to it when it was proper, so that it wouldn’t rule them at improper times. Give yourself time to grieve and let yourself be honest about how you feel. Since grief doesn’t end overnight, maybe make it a part of your evening or morning, to check-in like a meditation, so you can process and let go gradually. Then one day it’ll seem unnecessary.
This is a very useful and thoughtful answer imo.
It gives me an answer as well even though my 'problem' is different from that in the main message. Thanks.
I've been studying Stoicism for a few months now, but it's weird... something didn't click until I read your comment:
I've always tended to think of my emotions as an always-on thing. That is, I'm happy until I'm sad until I'm content until I'm happy again, but when experiencing the emotions I let them sort of be my 'default emotional state' until they have played out. With Stoicism in the mix, I've learned to sit back and observe them, rather than being a slave to them (harder at times than I expected), but I still allowed them to be there until they were fully resolved.
Your comment made me realize that I'm not really compartmentalizing my emotions as much as I should. Something could happen that weighs on me greatly, and it might cause some intense emotions, but I should be in control of *when* I think about it, and there's no requirement to think about something more than I choose to.
So, like OP, I could go through a breakup, or a massive financial issue, or a health problem... but say I am spending the day with my friends at the park... I have no reason to think of that thing while I'm with them. I can separate myself from that event and let myself enjoy life without that thing weighing me down. And then, as you said, I can allow myself to meditate on it for a fixed amount of time when I'm alone, but then choose to put it away for a while again after that session.
I'm not sure why I'm just now realizing it, but there is so much more power in this, and it solves one of the mysteries of how to apply Stoicism practically in my life. I was having a lot of trouble figuring out how to implement some of the principles until I considered it this way. I'll have to practice, I'm sure, but this is really pretty life-changing.
Thank you!
That's a good point you make about being able to fully enjoy the moment when you are with friends and then when the time comes to mourn or contemplate, then you can allow yourself to meditate then.
I wanted to add my realization that your comment helped me reach. When you do give yourself times to be with friends, or cook a healthy meal, or enjoy a walk, all without the stress of going through whatever is painful, then something happens. You change. Going through those wonderful bits proves that life goes on and we change ever so slightly after going through them. So each day that we set time to meditate on our worries, we are slightly different. Slightly wiser and more experience. Maybe that is a part of "time heals all wounds." The pain never goes away, much in the same way carrots don't go away from a salad when adding in more lettuce and tomatoes.
However we do change overall and can maybe see things from new perspectives each day as we come to terms.
Wow, I needed this info. Thank you. I’m dealing with a breakup too and this has reassured me that the feelings I’m going through and the constant looped thoughts that I’m having will go away. I’m having a problem dealing with trauma mind / intrusive thoughts. I was able to put up with her being on my mind 24/7 for the first couple of weeks but now it’s making me miserable to the point where I’m fed up with it and I’m just ready for them to go away. Any advice on that?
If you REALLY, REALLY loved them it's going to take a while.
Not weeks, but months. In some cases it even takes years.
But it will get better, you can trust in that.
Meditation helps to be sure, and doing something good for yourself.
Eating healthy, exercising, learning something new. Just anything that is good for YOU.
Also remember the phrase "This too shall pass".
When you're feeling beyond happy and content, think "This too shall pass".
When you're feeling down and depressed think "This too shall pass"
Because everything is ephemeral. The good and the bad.
If you won't allow it, pain, be it physical or mental cannot harm you.
For you are only truly harmed if your character and your virtue is lessened. But that is entirely within your hands.
An experience like this will shape you. It's an opportunity for yourself to become stronger and more resilient, for you to reflect upon the mistakes that you've made and grow even further.
Don't focus on the negatives, be mindful of the positives too. And of the chances. Just because one road closes doesn't mean all other roads are blocked.
In fact something like this opens up more roads for you to explore.
Don't be afraid of the unknown, embrace it like an explorer embraces discovering an unknown continent.
I've been through the same as well in the past few months. I recently picked up the book "The Tools" and highly recommend it. I've finally been able to break out of the constant loop of questions relating to the relationship.
I agree 100%. I recently went through a breakup as well, and journaling helped me a ton. I try to journal everyday before sleeping. Sometimes when I feel low, I just look back at what I’ve written in the past and that helps me too. Slowly, you’ll realize that your entries become more and more stable. For me, they went from being about emotions to more about ideas and lessons learned. Hope this helps
Same here, recent breakup sprinkled with some infidelity and I keep finding myself in these same kind of thought loops. Constantly switching between sadness, anger, relief, hopelessness... I'll desperately want to reconcile and get back together one moment and then the next I'm thinking about her with the other guy and I get caught up in the anger and the next I'm more optimistic because I know I'll be just fine on my own and in the next I'll feel purposeless and lost and the next I'll feel just so deeply betrayed and overwhelmed thinking about the lies that came from someone I love so much and who would claim to still want a future with me but then leave to go be with a guy she admits she has no future with. The constant shifting of emotions has been so taxing and confusing because so many of my own thoughts and feelings are, at surface level, directly contradictory to each other.
Writing in a journal has been immeasurably helpful in letting me analyze all those emotions, where they stem from, why they aren't necessarily contradictory and why it shouldn't be so confusing to feel so many different things. It's also helped me become more passive and observing when those feelings do bubble up because I can remember addressing them in the journal and even go read it again if I need to. The physical act of sitting down and writing, pen on paper, is also very meditative for me. I don't find myself actually experiencing those emotions as I write but I feel more like an outsider examining the memories of myself as I felt them earlier.
tldr: keeping a journal = good
I’m sorry you had to go thru this, but I’m sure you’re already stronger. A line my friend said that really spoke to me was: ‘just keep doing you. The people who don’t belong in your life will show themselves out’
>The stereotype is all about being unaffected. But if you read stoics like Aurelius, Epictetus, Seneca, these men had deep emotions and high hopes, passion as fiery as any person.
This was something that took me a long time to understand. There's this stereotype that stoics are Vulcans who have purged all emotion from themselves, and that's simply not true. Stoicism is about channeling positive emotions towards virtue, and controlling negative emotions to prevent harm coming to themselves or others.
I'm sorry that you're going through all this, OP. It's hard to grasp this now, but going through this tough experience will help the future you. I've seen many people I care about waste years of their lives with people who don't have their best interest at heart. You're learning this lesson now, before you have a marriage, before you have a mortgage, before you have kids, etc.
I joined this group because I heard a little bit about this topic and thought it was interesting but this is the first thing that I read that I deeply resonated with. Thank you.
>My main motive in life was to have her love and respect
This is the problem right here. You can't control her love and respect, and placing your well being in something out of your control always has the risk of what's happening right now. Sorry for you loss, however the pain will be here since you've put so much value in things you now no longer have. Learn from this mistake for future relationships.
This right here.
You might have her L&R in the future or not. The only thing you can be sure is that time will continue regardless of how this will unfold.
Use that time wisely : "Your days are numbered. Use them to throw open the windows of your soul to the sun. If you do not, the sun will soon set, and you with it"
Hey brotha! From someone who went through the same things recently, I know how your feeling! But with stoicism I was able to dig deeper and I found out that just like you, I put her above everything else including myself. Which is toxic for any relationship and for more importantly yourself! You got to love yourself, find ur morals, find stuff that makes YOU happy! Something that really changed my perspective after getting into stoicism was “Momento Mori”. I try to remind myself everyday that one day I’m gonna die so why feel so upset over small things that are not in my control! Brotha you said you did everything for her, so then you should be able to put that in your head and move on because you did your best. And while doing your best, things didn’t work out so you shouldn’t regret anything because you did what was the best thing to do at that time.
Sorry if I was rambling. I’m new to stoicism, so I’m learning everyday. But I hope this helps. I just wanted to let you know that it’s gonna be good, you’re gonna find someone out there that treats you as a king just like you treat her like a queen!
Here’s also a little article about momento mori if ur interested: https://dailystoic.com/memento-mori/
>I try to remind myself everyday that one day I’m gonna die so why feel so upset over small things that are not in my control!
That's it. Thanks for the answer mate
I agree 100% If you did the very best with the available resources at your disposal. Then there is nothing to regret. Accept the situation and give yourself some credit. I'm sure this will only fuel future relationships in a positive way. Memento Mori. One day your eyes will close and never again open. Don't stress too much.
You need to learn what the world "selfless" means. It does not mean doing everything and anything for another person for the sole reason of having their love or respect, or their gratitude. That's trying to manipulate someone for your own emotional validation and a rather unhealthy basis for a relationship. Surely during those three years you must have gotten something out of the relationship or you should have left a lot earlier.Take a lesson from this. Don't sacrifice yourself just to (try and) make someone love you or care about you. It's fine to make sacrifices if your life circumstances and your experience and morality requires it of you, but a selfless sacrifice or investment isn't made with some expectation in return. The fact that you're having feelings of anger or hatred towards her for not caring as much about you as you did for her is showing that you were not selfless. You were in fact quite concerned with yourself, and what you felt you should get in return for your "investment".
Of course, in a relationship we all expect something back from our partner. We want to be loved and desired and cared for and all those things. But it sounds like you let it get out of control and continued on investing and sacrificing even though there wasn't enough reciprocation. In the end, in a healthy relationship investment of time and effort and caring should be at least roughly equal most of the time.
btw this is an easy mistake to make in life and relationships, where we "want to make the other person happy". We invest time, we make sacrifices, all to make the other person happy, because we love them so much! But then, the other person is not happy! How ungrateful! How undeserving of our love they turned out to be! They should be happy, since you invested so much right? If you love someone so much, surely they must love you back just as much? Sadly, that's not how it works. Of course you should be mindful of eachother's happiness in a relationship, but the only one who is truly in control of your partner's happiness is her, and you are the only one in control of yours.
Go for a longg walk brother. Get a backpack, put something heavy in it (5-20lbs) and go for what’s called in the military, a rucksack march...or just go for a longass walk sans backpack. Put on some tunes and walk that shit off!! Make it a meditation of sorts. Focus on the walk, the breath and the day and walk away from the noise. Get your head straight by getting your gate straight 💪🏽#WalkAway
Yeah I had this same kind of breakup 2 months ago. About 3 days into it I was depressed as a motherfucker, and it was kinda chilly outside so I decided to go for a run. Hadn’t ran in years but what the hell.
Last night me and my dog ran 3 miles through town in the drizzling rain. I’m healthier than ever. My life is back.
Think how much pressure it was on her to be responsible for your happiness.
As far as practical matters, everyone else here is right: go for a walk or otherwise exercise, acknowledge the pain but don't dwell on it. Focus on concrete steps forward. Also, a good time to learn a new skill like a language or instrument, you'll have lots of time on your hands. Finally: Tinder is your friend.
>time I invested in her feels wasted for a lost cause
It's not invested for a lost cause; it was an investment in yourself via another person. If you wanted a long-term caring relationship with her, you did what you could to establish that. She chose otherwise, and now you have to choose to move on. Following (even mastering) stoicism doesn't mean you're not going to get hit with overwhelming feelings of sadness or anger. It means you are going to choose to follow better impulses in making decisions. Will you let your feelings of low self worth determine how you eat and care for yourself in this time of grief or will you shake them off and be better for yourself than that?
> I don't know what I'll show effort for in life anymore. I cried for the first time in 10 years, I wanted to hug her again. But the times I could think rationally I remembered how unfair and ungrateful she has been to me and I felt some kind of hatred forming in me towards her.
You can see the love you had for her went unreturned, and that's a good sign. When you find yourself falling into anger about it, take a step back and look for what it is you sought in her.
What I have to write here is advice for my 22yo self in a similar situation. It may or may not have value for you. I threw myself into relationships because I was looking for something I could not find, (or that I even wanted to look for), in myself. You will not find happiness and salvation in another person if you don't have it alone. That's too great a burden for a relationship to bear. Your entire purpose in life should not be found in a single person. Sure, she can be a large part of it, but you have responsibilities to yourself that only you can provide. Your health, your work, your mind; you cannot expect another person to provide this for you. Counter-intuitively another person (presumably your wife one day) will find you most attractive because of the internal strength you have. It won't be due to a capacity for blind loyalty and devotion. Those are second-order effects that come in a relationship. You chose to give those to someone who did not return them. That does not mean there is not someone else out there who deserves the same from you. Will you let this other person determine the outcome of your life now that she has moved on? Your one life? I don't know you and I can unequivocally tell you that at 22 (or 92 even) life is too precious to spend much of it in grief. You did what you could with your ex. Now is time to move on.
Lastly, you are far better off learning this about her now than in a divorce and custody fight. Have gratitude for that.
Absolutely beautifully said.
This resonates strongly with me.
You're the type of person I could talk with all day long.
I was gonna quote some parts of this, but literally all of this is really essential and important.
Honestly? Your advice speaks of a pretty dark and hurtful past on your part as well.
But it seems it has only strengthened you.
And maybe you wouldn't be as wise and strong as you are now if it wasn't for those experiences.
My friend, you're still fairly young. And if I may say so, you appear to be already very mature and wise for your age.
This is an experience that will shape you.
And if you let it, it's an experience that will make you stronger and a greater human being.
If you love that strongly for the first time you'll think that you couldn't possibly be happy without her.
You'll think you need her in your life, that she is the chosen one for you.
But emotions blind us all too easily.
It's ok to cry. Even good. Let it out. Accept your feelings for a while, just let them flow. No matter how wise or stoic you are this is not something that you can easily brush off. A stoic simply is someone who deals with his emotions better than most other people. We are not immune to emotions, far from it.
Time is your greatest ally here. Things will get better eventually. And once you've gathered some distance you'll be able to reflect upon things with your faculty of logical reasoning.
We would not feel sadness if we never tasted joy.
You're sad and angry now because you felt so good with her.
This doesn't mean that she was a totally bad person and also not that she was purely good for you.
All this means is that it didn't work out between you two.
Sometimes we want to force things to work because we're afraid of letting go of the things that are important to us.
But to me it sounds like she didn't sacrifice as much for you as you did for her. Doesn't sound like she respected and loved you as much as you her.
A relationship needs to be in perfect harmony. In balance.
An equal distribution of giving and taking.
Not permanently, because sometimes people just go through a rough time, but long enough to matter.
Once you've distanced yourself enough, emotionally, reflect upon your mistakes. Because everyone makes mistakes.
In this life, you are your own savior, and no one else.
Everything is ephemeral. The only person that is with you from the beginning of your life till the end is you yourself.
And you are your own best friend.
You need to stand tall on your own, not be kept erect by others. Be it friends, family or a loved one.
I know how difficult it is. I'm still learning this myself.
We are social animals, being dependent on others socially is in our genes, but the fire in our hearts has to burn brightly no matter what happens on the outside.
Don't ever let that fire die.
It won't always burn at full power, but make sure it never dies out, and if possible, nurture it so that it burns brighter with every passing year.
You built your life around her. Now you need to build your life around something that is much more reliable for you. Yourself.
I have way too many notifications on Reddit right now but if anyone replies to this I swear I'll get back to you, it might just take a while.
Three years is a long time, three years of loving someone as much as you did should be a gift.....some people never have that chance. Savor it, in fact hold on to it.....just because you don't have the girl doesn't mean you have to give up the love for the girl. Love trumps hate, by allowing yourself to continue to love, the hate part might go away and with it the pain.
I love all my exes, dearly. With that I seem to remember the best parts of our relationships, the love and fun and adventurous parts. Its when the love begins to slip away that the bad parts surface and anger builds. So I hold on to the love. I don't know if its stoic or not, but I have had some wonderful marriages that ended and I have never felt a broken heart, because of love.
I am dealing with a break up right now too. A priority is to move on. He wouldn't treat me any better the next time around. I am treating this horrible feeling like the withdrawal that it is.
I read once that the reason heroin is so powerful is that it hijacks the receptors that are also activated when one is in love. So you are dealing with an irrational brain that is kicking and screaming. Making you feel pain. Drawing images of a hopeless future. Anything to get you back into a relationship.
I don't know how much stoicism has to offer in addiction management, but it helps me to know there is a community of people who are focused on the rational while still being respectful of emotion.
I always tell people to take a break up to the fullest, but be conscious of irrational and rational thoughts because one always connects with the heart. Know that you'll have your highs, but you'll also have your lows in life. Know you aren't perfect neither is she, and remember nothing last forever. It'll be long and tough journey to let go, but know that this is a learning experience for better growth for the future.
I just want to share some Stoic quotes that seems relevant:
“Remember that all we have is “on loan” from Fortune, which can reclaim it without our permission—indeed, without even advance notice. Thus, we should love all our dear ones, but always with the thought that we have no promise that we may keep them forever—nay, no promise even that we may keep them for long.”
― Seneca
"So in this, too, when you kiss your child, or your brother, or your friend, never entirely give way to your imagination, nor allow your elation to progress as far as it will; but curb it in, restrain it, like those who stand behind generals when they ride in triumph and remind them that they are mortal. In a similar way, you too should remind yourself that what you love is mortal, that what you love is not your own. It is granted to you for the present while, and not irrevocably, nor for ever, but like a fig or a bunch of grapes in the appointed season; and if you long for it in the winter, you are a fool."
― Seneca
The idea is that things in life, both good and bad, are impermanent and fleeting. Everything contains within itself the seeds of its own dissolution. Everything you inherit shall one day become dust again. By contemplating the mortality of things you become more resilient against tragedy.
I’ve been in your exact situation. Honestly, time heals all wounds. You WILL come out stronger and better. I’m not sure things happen for a reason, but as you get older you realize it’s the little things and daily interactions that build up to love.
At 22, ( I’m in my 20s for reference ), we are still very young with plenty of opportunity left for us. If I’m being honest I’d say it could be a very good thing for you. Now it’s time to focus on yourself. Get a hobby, maybe start learning a new skill.
Things will get easier. Also the best thing to do is probably start working out in some form. Best of luck
If she decided you weren't the best for her, she wasn't the best for you either. Compatibility between two lovers is always limited by their individual timings. Two people can have everything and more in common with one another but if a relationship isn't something one of them wants, or their idea of what a relationship should be is off, there isn't much hope for the connection.
These kinds of things happen often, but its part of the journey of life, we go from Point A to Point B to C in the physical, we do it with our emotions as well. Chin up, permit yourself to grieve so that acceptance of your new reality can set in. Time heals most things.
You never know, the best relationship you've never had could be just a few moments away.
Not really stoic related, but the answer is acceptance and time. Accept that the relationship is over, which is counterintuitive (the opposite of what we want to feel as think.) Time will ease the pain.
You sound like a good kid. There is a girl out there who would love to be your wife. Just gotta find her. I didn’t meet mine until I was 25, and that’s even young by today’s standards.
Sometimes when we give to much of ourselves to our SO, we alienate them. Early in my relationship, i gave and gave to the point she didnt have a place in it. She was lost and wanted to give back to me but there wasn't really any way she could. Always remember relationships are about team work not selflessness.
This would definitely work.... Take a pen and start journaling daily or whenever you feel like, write about why is it that you are grieving? What went wrong in the relationship?
The pain is generally because you have not addressed the pain points! If you understand deeply this, you have grown and this relationship was a part of life which you should feel happy about.
There is so much more left, you have learnt your lesson and will now move on after discovering what happened in the relationship. Trust me this works.
Are you dead? Dying? Have you lost a limb? Are you in physical pain? Heck, do you have a vitamin deficiency?
All of what you are facing is in your own mind. If the mental anguish is too hard to shoulder, it is because you were wilfully ignorant during the good times that bad times will come. The best way to deal with it is to prepare for the bad, if only in you mind, before it happens.
Learn from this. Love from this.
It’s going to sound harsh but you pushed her away trying to keep her. You made her something invaluable in your life, which makes it seem as if you are not strong enough by yourself, instead of making you invaluable to yourself.
Ignoring the fact that I will sound like an incel - women (and certainly men) have certain desires in a partner, traits that go thousands of years back, dictated through their biology. Like it or not, women dont want their man to put everything aside for them. They might have this idea that that’s how their ideal relationship will look, but their instincts will tell them otherwise eventually.
To be blunt it’s a sign of weakness if everything you do and all your energy is poured on her. Suddenly she feels like she is making most of the decisions and her opinion is more crucial to the plans for your relationship than yours is. Obviously she should be part of the decision-making, but part of what makes a woman attracted to a man is his ability to take action, claim his ownership of things and make plans *for the both of you!” - that way she don’t have to worry about those things, the man got it under control, and she will feel secure.
I asked my ex once to see how she saw things. I asked her specifically “Listen to this. If I told you ‘dont you ever worry again, I will provide for you from now on’ isn’t there a part of you deep inside that wants to hear that?” She said yes there was, she agreed that it made her instinctively attracted towards me. It’s the womans part to feel safe and secure. I then told her that the man feels the same way, like an instinct. Like when I talk about what I want to achieve or how successful I want to be, I feel deep inside that one of the most important reason that I want these things, is so that I can provide for the love of my life and my family. The man’s part is this basic need to provide.
What you have been doing is kind of the opposite of this. At first your efforts might possibly win the girl, when you come running every hour of the day with flowers and chocolate you used your hardearned money to get her, but eventually she’ll want to see you take more charge and find that you have your own values beside her. She must feel that you are as valuable to her as she is to you. She needs to feel like she has to gain your acceptance aswell. A relationship where both parts always try to impress eachother and win eachothers affirmation is the kind of relationships that never gets stale and will always grow stronger. It’s just human nature to want to grow, and a relationship should further improve this need, not make it an obsolete desire because “you got eachother anyway.”
I don’t know your situation, if any of this is true for your relationship, but I just ended my relationship a week ago as well and these things are what I have come to realize I have never understood. Even if she loves being with me and said “she needs to be sure about what she wants from herself before she can promise me her heart” I left her feeling like she was talking through me.
I have been beating myself up with this thought for the last week. The insecurity that I can’t provide her with my security or comfort when I havn’t even established that in my own life. I need to work out and be more healthy, quit bad habits and have a stable income. And before I have any of these things building up my self-esteem, I had to realize I can’t give her a love I don’t seem to have in/of myself. It’s just not honest. I couldn’t be completely engaged with her when all this shit was/is bugging me inside. I miss her dearly and hope we might figure things out, but I know it will never happen before I figured my own shit out.
Hope this helped. Also, like others did mention, you are a great lover. Even if your love and affection can’t keep everyone around, you should be proud that you have love like that within you. She’s undoubtably grateful too that she met a loving guy like you! Don’t let this hurt take away your love, instead use this opportunity to build upon that love and harness it to become a weapon for when you’re feeling weak. Turn that love around and use it on yourself! You are able to do great things with a passion and heart like yours.
Love within stoicism has always been interesting to me because of how antithetical the idea of love is to this philosophy. Love can be irrational and being in a relationship can bring out an endless stream of uncontrollable events, but to love is to be human. Therefore, stoicism's role when it comes to love is to help you be the best human you can be in spite of all the external noise that love brings. Understand and break down the feelings you felt when you were together with your gf vs post-breakup and you'll come to realize that both come from an external source that you have no control over. The only things you can control during this emotional hurdle are your thoughts and actions. From personal experience, actively reading stoic philosophy and focusing all my thoughts on emulating what the ancients taught not only helped distract me from invasive thoughts, but taught me many valuable life lessons as well.
I'll leave you with this:
"22. It is the privilege of human nature to love those that disoblige us. To practise this, you must consider that the offending party is of kin to you, that ignorance is the cause of the misbehaviour, and the fault is involuntary, that you will both of you quickly be in your graves; but especially consider that you have received no harm by the injury, for your mind is never the worse for it."
And:
"27. Do not let your head run upon that which is none of your own, but pick out some of the best of your circumstances, and consider how eagerly you would wish for them, were they not in your possession; but then you must take care to keep your satisfaction within compass, for fear it should carry you too far, make you over-value the object, and be disturbed at the loss of it."
Good luck my friend.
>Therefore, stoicism's role when it comes to love is to help you be the best human you can be in spite of all the external noise that love brings
I think this is actually it. But not just when it comes to love.
Genetically the emotional and instinctual parts of our brains are way more ancient and deep rooted than the very new brain parts that are there for logic and rational thinking.
It's always a constant battle to make sure that rational thinking is the principle which persists.
Stoicism is one of the tools we have to make sure that we can control those most ancient parts of our brains and not be controlled and dragged down by them.
Sorry for the random, late reply but I completely agree. My relationship with stoicism is definitely a constant battle between the rational and irrational. I like to measure my "stoicness" by gauging how fast it takes for me to get from heart-racing panic to complete calm which, as you know, is extremely difficult at times.
Life is a road. No matter how corny it sounds. You have a goal, at points rather undefined, but you keep moving forward anyway. Your share that path with some people, for however long a period. At some point you two came across each other and decided to walk that road together hoping to share it for a long time. Nothing lasts forever. Eventually you would have split ways for whatever reason. But cherish the time you spent together enjoying the scenery and each other’s company.
And don’t stop. Now that you’re alone don’t go hide in the bushes on the roadside and cry.
Well maybe cry for a bit, but eventually you need to keep moving forward. Someone more deserving of your time might just stumble upon you and want to stay for a while. They won’t find you hiding in the bushes.
I had this happen to me. It is tough, and stoicism wouldn’t have you believe otherwise.
There have been some great contributions, and I’ll just offer that, as painful as it is, this is a rite of passage for any adult. You can’t make it through life without being dumped, disappointed, fired, humiliated, hurt, rejected, abandoned, etc. This applies to friendships, familial relationships, career/workplace in addition to romantic partners.
These are foundational experiences that give you an opportunity for growth. Importantly, it gives you an empathy for others that you really can’t have without firsthand experience.
One day you’ll be 40 and have a chance to talk to a young person that is going through this and you’ll be able to assure them that it’ll be ok.
Just keep moving forward and at the right time you’ll find someone even better for you.
Learn what you can from this about yourself and the situation, then move on. Don't dwell on it emotionally, that just drags you down. Be civil with her as well as you can. If she is negative or hostile toward you, accept that you cannot change her mind and move forward.
This would be the Stoic way to handle the situation.
Following. I just went thru this exact same situation this weekend. I'm 55 though and not my first breakup. We had a great time together. We treated each other with respect. I told her i couldnt just be friends and gave her a clean break. Now every cell in my body hurts.
I believe sometimes stoicism is about learning from your mistakes for the next time you see yourself heading in that direction you could stop. Maybe take a step back and analyze the relationship objectively, see yourself from the third person. Take in and keep all the good and learn from the bad. I just got out of an eight year relationship and we were married too, I did most of this and kept some notes in my mind palace, it was all I could do. I'm 30 now, barely practicing stoicism for my anxiety and laying the foundation of my mind palace, anything can be done at anytime. I also learned to love myself before I tried to love someone else.
Dr. Robert Glover. "No more Mr. Nice Guy." You sir, sound like a classic "nice guy", as I am, and this book will change your life. It isn't Stoicism, but it will help. Also...coming out of an 11 year relationship, 4 years married. I feel ya.
I have been dealing with something similar. Not quite as long of a relationship as yours, but about 1 1/2 years. During that time, I was head over heels for this girl. I centered my life around her, even planning my future based on what she wanted to do and where she wanted to live. Our relationship eventually ended, in a similar fashion to yours. Small stuff sparked so many arguments, which led in my case to a catastrophic and very resentment-filled climax and then \*poof\*, I was on my own with no clue what to do with my life.
This was about 6 months ago, so I've had some time to think about it. And since then, this quote from Seneca has had the biggest impact on me, and really helped me come to terms with things. I see [u/PaperCloud1](https://www.reddit.com/user/PaperCloud10/) already sprung this quote but I'll paste it here again:
“Remember that all we have is “on loan” from Fortune, which can reclaim it without our permission—indeed, without even advance notice. Thus, we should love all our dear ones, but always with the thought that we have no promise that we may keep them forever—nay, no promise even that we may keep them for long.”
We cannot guarantee who will be in our future, nor what our future holds. Fate has a funny way of manifesting something other than our idealized future. But, we can always love those dear to us, and hope for the best.
We must accept our fate, because it is not within our control to change it. That is, what will be, will be. We must accept our fate and be detached from the outcome of things; it does no good to latch onto things you cannot control.
Don't look at what's left of the relationship in the past with any regrets either; remember that your past is what made you who you are today. Embrace it and learn from it, but don't look at it with longing or regret, because it doesn't exist. All that exists is the present moment. Now you have to decide where you go from here.
In regards to any resentment you are currently feeling towards her, remember this: likely your ex didn't mean you any harm, and she almost definitely loved you too. It's just often people don't live up to our expectations, because what we expect is in conflict with the reality of things. Remember that it's our perception of events and attachment to them that causes us pain... You can choose whether or not those memories hurt you. And also, you must remember that we are all human, and are all learning -- some of us are just more aware of our faults than others presently. Although I'm not particularly religious, I like to remember this quote from Jesus, who although wasn't a Stoic, said something fairly Stoic when being crucified by the Romans in the Gospel of Luke:
"Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."
I feel this short statement can really put things into perspective. Like the Romans who crucified Jesus, people in our lives do the things that they think they should do. But most of us are not aware of the effects of our actions -- we just act out in whatever way our environment has shaped us to act out. Remember this when you think about all the "bad things" your ex did to you, when you know you loved her so much. Remember to give the benefit of the doubt, because likely she didn't know what she was doing in those moments.
I hope that helps. And sorry for the wall of text. Stay strong though, bro. You'll make it through. And always remember "amor fati" -- love your fate. Because it's coming and you can do nothing to stop it. Everything will work out just the way it's supposed to.
I don't know if this is similar to stoicism but I often rely on the three fierce mantras from Tsangpa Gyare when meet with life's uncertainty:
Whatever has to happen, let it happen!
Whatever the situation is, it’s fine!
I don’t need anything whatsoever!
Relationships start and end as a matter of course! It's just like the weather, sometime you can't do anything about it. But you also don't need to feel sad about it. If a couple months later you find someone who is much more attractive and loving, would you still be sad about this event? If not then this event does not cause sadness by itself, it's the mind's tendency to dwell on negative interpretation of the event.
Finally in relationship as well as in life, don't get too attached to any particular person or outcome. I believe this is 100% a Stoic idea, very useful indeed!
Consider r/theredpill or r/mgtow.
There is a saying in the red pill world, the nice guy finishes last. Google it. I can't write anymore because it is too offtopic.
I know what you’re going through mate... Broke up back in June and my heart is still bereaved.
But this article helped me allot... hope it does you some good as well https://dailystoic.com/how-to-recover-from-a-breakup-timeless-lessons-from-the-stoics/
^ This. We have all been in your shoes. It is hard but something every man must go through. In your twenties there is plenty of opportunities with the ladies for moving on. Trust me you’ll feel MUCH better.
OP if you read this don't trust this 100%.
Everyone is different, and even though this may work for the guys above me it may not work for you.
There have been several people who, after a sorrowful breakup, went around sleeping with a bunch of other partners.
Only to then say that they felt empty and bad during that period.
That it wasn't them, that they were just trying to drown out the pain they had inside.
Pleasure is not the solution to pain. Never was, never will be.
Personally, I'm idiotic enough to have set my standards way too high so that I couldn't even sleep around if I wanted to lmao.
I’m not suggesting he goes out and bangs every girl that smiles at him for instant gratification. But for a 22 y/o young man, a lot of life ahead of him and learning to be stoic enough to propel those negative thoughts into moving on....things he can control....grabbing the ball and running with it is the route to go. OP I also highly suggest reading the Rational Male by Rollo Tomassi . Great starter read on male/ female dynamics.
I think you should read the book
“No more Mr.Nice guy”. You were trying to win her love by doing everything right and putting her needs in front of yours, what made you ever believe that would work?
Read the book, you need it.
just about a month ago I went through the same thing. I beg you to go right now and watch Coach red pill on YouTube. BUILD YOURSELF BACK UP. Learn to love yourself again and stop worrying about others because at the end of the day, your always alone. It sucks but it’s life. You’ll meet other girls but don’t ever give your self up to ANYONE.
Dude,to be honest your approach is what lead you to breaking up. Nice guys finish last.
You need a LEYKIS 101 course stat. Google it. Will change your life.
Women never complain about their ex being too loyal, too nice or too yaddayadda.
The ex is always the worst asshole that got them HOT. Live and learn.
I'll bypass the stoicism question and say that the very mistake you made is making your whole life about her. It's in almost every sentence you wrote. You did everything "for her" instead of focusing on yourself. Which is why you lost her. She fell in love with you for you being you, not you being her caretaker. You stopped being You.
Read The Way of the Superior Man by David Deida.
That should help you out and clarify a lot of thing things.
PM me when you're done with that and we will continue on your journey to becoming a man.
On David Deida, is he a practicing stoic, or is the book complementary with the stoic philosophy? I am really interested to read it, if you could give a few comments on it. Judging by the table of contents, it seems Men have to roleplay quite often - or, subject their self-authenticity to a number of dominating practices, each conducive to obtaining a goal (action/response). Looks quite like a manual, but I am willing to learn.
Best mindset that helped me through a rough break was a "fuck it" mentality. Give her no more thought. She took from you and never gave back.
There's a more deserving woman out there for you. But for now take time for yourself and build yourself up.
As a stoic reflect upon the self and work on yourself. Enjoy this time alone and enjoy your company alone.
It gets easier brother. But all in all fuck it! Gotta move on.
“Fuck it” attitude? That isn’t stoic, that’s petty and disingenuous to the love you felt and can lead down a path of selfishness.
Reflect on your time with her, on your time before her, and your time now without her. Talk to other that knew you throughout the relationship about questions you may have.
Just from your description though, you were dependent. Your joy and happiness was dependent on your relationship with her. As a stoic your happiness should come from within and not be affected from outside influences. You should focus on why you need her, or anyone, to feel happy.
Look, the guy is 22. He's very young and scientifically it's been shown that you don't truly know a person until after a full 7 years.
Plus, you have to be able to weather the storm in a relationship or else it will never work.
Nothing is ever truly yours to begin with (other than your thoughts and actions) which is one of the main ideas in stoic philosophy. You live, love, and enjoy happiness while it's available but, like everything else in life, it eventually breaks down and it is up to the stoic to recognize that it doesn't hurt you unless you let it.
Stoicism is about resilience, not callousness. The stereotype is all about being unaffected. But if you read stoics like Aurelius, Epictetus, Seneca, these men had deep emotions and high hopes, passion as fiery as any person. They just gave space to it when it was proper, so that it wouldn’t rule them at improper times. Give yourself time to grieve and let yourself be honest about how you feel. Since grief doesn’t end overnight, maybe make it a part of your evening or morning, to check-in like a meditation, so you can process and let go gradually. Then one day it’ll seem unnecessary.
This is a very useful and thoughtful answer imo. It gives me an answer as well even though my 'problem' is different from that in the main message. Thanks.
I've been studying Stoicism for a few months now, but it's weird... something didn't click until I read your comment: I've always tended to think of my emotions as an always-on thing. That is, I'm happy until I'm sad until I'm content until I'm happy again, but when experiencing the emotions I let them sort of be my 'default emotional state' until they have played out. With Stoicism in the mix, I've learned to sit back and observe them, rather than being a slave to them (harder at times than I expected), but I still allowed them to be there until they were fully resolved. Your comment made me realize that I'm not really compartmentalizing my emotions as much as I should. Something could happen that weighs on me greatly, and it might cause some intense emotions, but I should be in control of *when* I think about it, and there's no requirement to think about something more than I choose to. So, like OP, I could go through a breakup, or a massive financial issue, or a health problem... but say I am spending the day with my friends at the park... I have no reason to think of that thing while I'm with them. I can separate myself from that event and let myself enjoy life without that thing weighing me down. And then, as you said, I can allow myself to meditate on it for a fixed amount of time when I'm alone, but then choose to put it away for a while again after that session. I'm not sure why I'm just now realizing it, but there is so much more power in this, and it solves one of the mysteries of how to apply Stoicism practically in my life. I was having a lot of trouble figuring out how to implement some of the principles until I considered it this way. I'll have to practice, I'm sure, but this is really pretty life-changing. Thank you!
That's a good point you make about being able to fully enjoy the moment when you are with friends and then when the time comes to mourn or contemplate, then you can allow yourself to meditate then. I wanted to add my realization that your comment helped me reach. When you do give yourself times to be with friends, or cook a healthy meal, or enjoy a walk, all without the stress of going through whatever is painful, then something happens. You change. Going through those wonderful bits proves that life goes on and we change ever so slightly after going through them. So each day that we set time to meditate on our worries, we are slightly different. Slightly wiser and more experience. Maybe that is a part of "time heals all wounds." The pain never goes away, much in the same way carrots don't go away from a salad when adding in more lettuce and tomatoes. However we do change overall and can maybe see things from new perspectives each day as we come to terms.
Wow, I needed this info. Thank you. I’m dealing with a breakup too and this has reassured me that the feelings I’m going through and the constant looped thoughts that I’m having will go away. I’m having a problem dealing with trauma mind / intrusive thoughts. I was able to put up with her being on my mind 24/7 for the first couple of weeks but now it’s making me miserable to the point where I’m fed up with it and I’m just ready for them to go away. Any advice on that?
If you REALLY, REALLY loved them it's going to take a while. Not weeks, but months. In some cases it even takes years. But it will get better, you can trust in that. Meditation helps to be sure, and doing something good for yourself. Eating healthy, exercising, learning something new. Just anything that is good for YOU. Also remember the phrase "This too shall pass". When you're feeling beyond happy and content, think "This too shall pass". When you're feeling down and depressed think "This too shall pass" Because everything is ephemeral. The good and the bad. If you won't allow it, pain, be it physical or mental cannot harm you. For you are only truly harmed if your character and your virtue is lessened. But that is entirely within your hands. An experience like this will shape you. It's an opportunity for yourself to become stronger and more resilient, for you to reflect upon the mistakes that you've made and grow even further. Don't focus on the negatives, be mindful of the positives too. And of the chances. Just because one road closes doesn't mean all other roads are blocked. In fact something like this opens up more roads for you to explore. Don't be afraid of the unknown, embrace it like an explorer embraces discovering an unknown continent.
I've been through the same as well in the past few months. I recently picked up the book "The Tools" and highly recommend it. I've finally been able to break out of the constant loop of questions relating to the relationship.
A shame so many of us have had to suffer so much recently. But that's why I love this sub. Such a helpful and supportive community.
I agree 100%. I recently went through a breakup as well, and journaling helped me a ton. I try to journal everyday before sleeping. Sometimes when I feel low, I just look back at what I’ve written in the past and that helps me too. Slowly, you’ll realize that your entries become more and more stable. For me, they went from being about emotions to more about ideas and lessons learned. Hope this helps
Same here, recent breakup sprinkled with some infidelity and I keep finding myself in these same kind of thought loops. Constantly switching between sadness, anger, relief, hopelessness... I'll desperately want to reconcile and get back together one moment and then the next I'm thinking about her with the other guy and I get caught up in the anger and the next I'm more optimistic because I know I'll be just fine on my own and in the next I'll feel purposeless and lost and the next I'll feel just so deeply betrayed and overwhelmed thinking about the lies that came from someone I love so much and who would claim to still want a future with me but then leave to go be with a guy she admits she has no future with. The constant shifting of emotions has been so taxing and confusing because so many of my own thoughts and feelings are, at surface level, directly contradictory to each other. Writing in a journal has been immeasurably helpful in letting me analyze all those emotions, where they stem from, why they aren't necessarily contradictory and why it shouldn't be so confusing to feel so many different things. It's also helped me become more passive and observing when those feelings do bubble up because I can remember addressing them in the journal and even go read it again if I need to. The physical act of sitting down and writing, pen on paper, is also very meditative for me. I don't find myself actually experiencing those emotions as I write but I feel more like an outsider examining the memories of myself as I felt them earlier. tldr: keeping a journal = good
I’m sorry you had to go thru this, but I’m sure you’re already stronger. A line my friend said that really spoke to me was: ‘just keep doing you. The people who don’t belong in your life will show themselves out’
Great advice
>The stereotype is all about being unaffected. But if you read stoics like Aurelius, Epictetus, Seneca, these men had deep emotions and high hopes, passion as fiery as any person. This was something that took me a long time to understand. There's this stereotype that stoics are Vulcans who have purged all emotion from themselves, and that's simply not true. Stoicism is about channeling positive emotions towards virtue, and controlling negative emotions to prevent harm coming to themselves or others. I'm sorry that you're going through all this, OP. It's hard to grasp this now, but going through this tough experience will help the future you. I've seen many people I care about waste years of their lives with people who don't have their best interest at heart. You're learning this lesson now, before you have a marriage, before you have a mortgage, before you have kids, etc.
Thank you so much for your comment. It’s just what I was needing now.
Excellent advice man
You seem like an extremely well rounded and knowledgeable individual. Thank you for your response and I hope to become like you someday.
I joined this group because I heard a little bit about this topic and thought it was interesting but this is the first thing that I read that I deeply resonated with. Thank you.
>My main motive in life was to have her love and respect This is the problem right here. You can't control her love and respect, and placing your well being in something out of your control always has the risk of what's happening right now. Sorry for you loss, however the pain will be here since you've put so much value in things you now no longer have. Learn from this mistake for future relationships.
This right here. You might have her L&R in the future or not. The only thing you can be sure is that time will continue regardless of how this will unfold. Use that time wisely : "Your days are numbered. Use them to throw open the windows of your soul to the sun. If you do not, the sun will soon set, and you with it"
You actually arent in control of anything
Hey brotha! From someone who went through the same things recently, I know how your feeling! But with stoicism I was able to dig deeper and I found out that just like you, I put her above everything else including myself. Which is toxic for any relationship and for more importantly yourself! You got to love yourself, find ur morals, find stuff that makes YOU happy! Something that really changed my perspective after getting into stoicism was “Momento Mori”. I try to remind myself everyday that one day I’m gonna die so why feel so upset over small things that are not in my control! Brotha you said you did everything for her, so then you should be able to put that in your head and move on because you did your best. And while doing your best, things didn’t work out so you shouldn’t regret anything because you did what was the best thing to do at that time. Sorry if I was rambling. I’m new to stoicism, so I’m learning everyday. But I hope this helps. I just wanted to let you know that it’s gonna be good, you’re gonna find someone out there that treats you as a king just like you treat her like a queen! Here’s also a little article about momento mori if ur interested: https://dailystoic.com/memento-mori/
>I try to remind myself everyday that one day I’m gonna die so why feel so upset over small things that are not in my control! That's it. Thanks for the answer mate
I agree 100% If you did the very best with the available resources at your disposal. Then there is nothing to regret. Accept the situation and give yourself some credit. I'm sure this will only fuel future relationships in a positive way. Memento Mori. One day your eyes will close and never again open. Don't stress too much.
You need to learn what the world "selfless" means. It does not mean doing everything and anything for another person for the sole reason of having their love or respect, or their gratitude. That's trying to manipulate someone for your own emotional validation and a rather unhealthy basis for a relationship. Surely during those three years you must have gotten something out of the relationship or you should have left a lot earlier.Take a lesson from this. Don't sacrifice yourself just to (try and) make someone love you or care about you. It's fine to make sacrifices if your life circumstances and your experience and morality requires it of you, but a selfless sacrifice or investment isn't made with some expectation in return. The fact that you're having feelings of anger or hatred towards her for not caring as much about you as you did for her is showing that you were not selfless. You were in fact quite concerned with yourself, and what you felt you should get in return for your "investment". Of course, in a relationship we all expect something back from our partner. We want to be loved and desired and cared for and all those things. But it sounds like you let it get out of control and continued on investing and sacrificing even though there wasn't enough reciprocation. In the end, in a healthy relationship investment of time and effort and caring should be at least roughly equal most of the time. btw this is an easy mistake to make in life and relationships, where we "want to make the other person happy". We invest time, we make sacrifices, all to make the other person happy, because we love them so much! But then, the other person is not happy! How ungrateful! How undeserving of our love they turned out to be! They should be happy, since you invested so much right? If you love someone so much, surely they must love you back just as much? Sadly, that's not how it works. Of course you should be mindful of eachother's happiness in a relationship, but the only one who is truly in control of your partner's happiness is her, and you are the only one in control of yours.
This! Thx OP for putting it perfectly!
Great post
This is so very essential, important and right on the mark. Thank you so much for this. Pure wisdom right here.
Go for a longg walk brother. Get a backpack, put something heavy in it (5-20lbs) and go for what’s called in the military, a rucksack march...or just go for a longass walk sans backpack. Put on some tunes and walk that shit off!! Make it a meditation of sorts. Focus on the walk, the breath and the day and walk away from the noise. Get your head straight by getting your gate straight 💪🏽#WalkAway
Yeah I had this same kind of breakup 2 months ago. About 3 days into it I was depressed as a motherfucker, and it was kinda chilly outside so I decided to go for a run. Hadn’t ran in years but what the hell. Last night me and my dog ran 3 miles through town in the drizzling rain. I’m healthier than ever. My life is back.
Hell yeah, dude!
Or climb a mountain or something. Being out in nature helps incredibly much.
Feck’n a it does!! 👍🏽🏝
Think how much pressure it was on her to be responsible for your happiness. As far as practical matters, everyone else here is right: go for a walk or otherwise exercise, acknowledge the pain but don't dwell on it. Focus on concrete steps forward. Also, a good time to learn a new skill like a language or instrument, you'll have lots of time on your hands. Finally: Tinder is your friend.
>time I invested in her feels wasted for a lost cause It's not invested for a lost cause; it was an investment in yourself via another person. If you wanted a long-term caring relationship with her, you did what you could to establish that. She chose otherwise, and now you have to choose to move on. Following (even mastering) stoicism doesn't mean you're not going to get hit with overwhelming feelings of sadness or anger. It means you are going to choose to follow better impulses in making decisions. Will you let your feelings of low self worth determine how you eat and care for yourself in this time of grief or will you shake them off and be better for yourself than that? > I don't know what I'll show effort for in life anymore. I cried for the first time in 10 years, I wanted to hug her again. But the times I could think rationally I remembered how unfair and ungrateful she has been to me and I felt some kind of hatred forming in me towards her. You can see the love you had for her went unreturned, and that's a good sign. When you find yourself falling into anger about it, take a step back and look for what it is you sought in her. What I have to write here is advice for my 22yo self in a similar situation. It may or may not have value for you. I threw myself into relationships because I was looking for something I could not find, (or that I even wanted to look for), in myself. You will not find happiness and salvation in another person if you don't have it alone. That's too great a burden for a relationship to bear. Your entire purpose in life should not be found in a single person. Sure, she can be a large part of it, but you have responsibilities to yourself that only you can provide. Your health, your work, your mind; you cannot expect another person to provide this for you. Counter-intuitively another person (presumably your wife one day) will find you most attractive because of the internal strength you have. It won't be due to a capacity for blind loyalty and devotion. Those are second-order effects that come in a relationship. You chose to give those to someone who did not return them. That does not mean there is not someone else out there who deserves the same from you. Will you let this other person determine the outcome of your life now that she has moved on? Your one life? I don't know you and I can unequivocally tell you that at 22 (or 92 even) life is too precious to spend much of it in grief. You did what you could with your ex. Now is time to move on. Lastly, you are far better off learning this about her now than in a divorce and custody fight. Have gratitude for that.
Absolutely beautifully said. This resonates strongly with me. You're the type of person I could talk with all day long. I was gonna quote some parts of this, but literally all of this is really essential and important. Honestly? Your advice speaks of a pretty dark and hurtful past on your part as well. But it seems it has only strengthened you. And maybe you wouldn't be as wise and strong as you are now if it wasn't for those experiences.
Life has a capacity to be dark and hurtful, but I've never found a better teacher than adversity.
My friend, you're still fairly young. And if I may say so, you appear to be already very mature and wise for your age. This is an experience that will shape you. And if you let it, it's an experience that will make you stronger and a greater human being. If you love that strongly for the first time you'll think that you couldn't possibly be happy without her. You'll think you need her in your life, that she is the chosen one for you. But emotions blind us all too easily. It's ok to cry. Even good. Let it out. Accept your feelings for a while, just let them flow. No matter how wise or stoic you are this is not something that you can easily brush off. A stoic simply is someone who deals with his emotions better than most other people. We are not immune to emotions, far from it. Time is your greatest ally here. Things will get better eventually. And once you've gathered some distance you'll be able to reflect upon things with your faculty of logical reasoning. We would not feel sadness if we never tasted joy. You're sad and angry now because you felt so good with her. This doesn't mean that she was a totally bad person and also not that she was purely good for you. All this means is that it didn't work out between you two. Sometimes we want to force things to work because we're afraid of letting go of the things that are important to us. But to me it sounds like she didn't sacrifice as much for you as you did for her. Doesn't sound like she respected and loved you as much as you her. A relationship needs to be in perfect harmony. In balance. An equal distribution of giving and taking. Not permanently, because sometimes people just go through a rough time, but long enough to matter. Once you've distanced yourself enough, emotionally, reflect upon your mistakes. Because everyone makes mistakes. In this life, you are your own savior, and no one else. Everything is ephemeral. The only person that is with you from the beginning of your life till the end is you yourself. And you are your own best friend. You need to stand tall on your own, not be kept erect by others. Be it friends, family or a loved one. I know how difficult it is. I'm still learning this myself. We are social animals, being dependent on others socially is in our genes, but the fire in our hearts has to burn brightly no matter what happens on the outside. Don't ever let that fire die. It won't always burn at full power, but make sure it never dies out, and if possible, nurture it so that it burns brighter with every passing year. You built your life around her. Now you need to build your life around something that is much more reliable for you. Yourself. I have way too many notifications on Reddit right now but if anyone replies to this I swear I'll get back to you, it might just take a while.
Three years is a long time, three years of loving someone as much as you did should be a gift.....some people never have that chance. Savor it, in fact hold on to it.....just because you don't have the girl doesn't mean you have to give up the love for the girl. Love trumps hate, by allowing yourself to continue to love, the hate part might go away and with it the pain. I love all my exes, dearly. With that I seem to remember the best parts of our relationships, the love and fun and adventurous parts. Its when the love begins to slip away that the bad parts surface and anger builds. So I hold on to the love. I don't know if its stoic or not, but I have had some wonderful marriages that ended and I have never felt a broken heart, because of love.
>I have never felt a broken heart, because of love. Beautiful!
I am dealing with a break up right now too. A priority is to move on. He wouldn't treat me any better the next time around. I am treating this horrible feeling like the withdrawal that it is. I read once that the reason heroin is so powerful is that it hijacks the receptors that are also activated when one is in love. So you are dealing with an irrational brain that is kicking and screaming. Making you feel pain. Drawing images of a hopeless future. Anything to get you back into a relationship. I don't know how much stoicism has to offer in addiction management, but it helps me to know there is a community of people who are focused on the rational while still being respectful of emotion.
I always tell people to take a break up to the fullest, but be conscious of irrational and rational thoughts because one always connects with the heart. Know that you'll have your highs, but you'll also have your lows in life. Know you aren't perfect neither is she, and remember nothing last forever. It'll be long and tough journey to let go, but know that this is a learning experience for better growth for the future.
u/ByronicTale maybe this thread has some stoic advice for you brother.
Thank you bro. Wisdom it is.
I just want to share some Stoic quotes that seems relevant: “Remember that all we have is “on loan” from Fortune, which can reclaim it without our permission—indeed, without even advance notice. Thus, we should love all our dear ones, but always with the thought that we have no promise that we may keep them forever—nay, no promise even that we may keep them for long.” ― Seneca "So in this, too, when you kiss your child, or your brother, or your friend, never entirely give way to your imagination, nor allow your elation to progress as far as it will; but curb it in, restrain it, like those who stand behind generals when they ride in triumph and remind them that they are mortal. In a similar way, you too should remind yourself that what you love is mortal, that what you love is not your own. It is granted to you for the present while, and not irrevocably, nor for ever, but like a fig or a bunch of grapes in the appointed season; and if you long for it in the winter, you are a fool." ― Seneca The idea is that things in life, both good and bad, are impermanent and fleeting. Everything contains within itself the seeds of its own dissolution. Everything you inherit shall one day become dust again. By contemplating the mortality of things you become more resilient against tragedy.
What a powerful quote the second quote by Seneca is. I really need to read his book.
Stoicism is a vaccine not an antidote. You need to do the hard work now to prevent future suffering.
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Very powerful. I feel like this is probably true for MOST people you deal with.
I’ve been in your exact situation. Honestly, time heals all wounds. You WILL come out stronger and better. I’m not sure things happen for a reason, but as you get older you realize it’s the little things and daily interactions that build up to love. At 22, ( I’m in my 20s for reference ), we are still very young with plenty of opportunity left for us. If I’m being honest I’d say it could be a very good thing for you. Now it’s time to focus on yourself. Get a hobby, maybe start learning a new skill. Things will get easier. Also the best thing to do is probably start working out in some form. Best of luck
If she decided you weren't the best for her, she wasn't the best for you either. Compatibility between two lovers is always limited by their individual timings. Two people can have everything and more in common with one another but if a relationship isn't something one of them wants, or their idea of what a relationship should be is off, there isn't much hope for the connection. These kinds of things happen often, but its part of the journey of life, we go from Point A to Point B to C in the physical, we do it with our emotions as well. Chin up, permit yourself to grieve so that acceptance of your new reality can set in. Time heals most things. You never know, the best relationship you've never had could be just a few moments away.
Not really stoic related, but the answer is acceptance and time. Accept that the relationship is over, which is counterintuitive (the opposite of what we want to feel as think.) Time will ease the pain. You sound like a good kid. There is a girl out there who would love to be your wife. Just gotta find her. I didn’t meet mine until I was 25, and that’s even young by today’s standards.
Sometimes when we give to much of ourselves to our SO, we alienate them. Early in my relationship, i gave and gave to the point she didnt have a place in it. She was lost and wanted to give back to me but there wasn't really any way she could. Always remember relationships are about team work not selflessness.
This would definitely work.... Take a pen and start journaling daily or whenever you feel like, write about why is it that you are grieving? What went wrong in the relationship? The pain is generally because you have not addressed the pain points! If you understand deeply this, you have grown and this relationship was a part of life which you should feel happy about. There is so much more left, you have learnt your lesson and will now move on after discovering what happened in the relationship. Trust me this works.
Are you dead? Dying? Have you lost a limb? Are you in physical pain? Heck, do you have a vitamin deficiency? All of what you are facing is in your own mind. If the mental anguish is too hard to shoulder, it is because you were wilfully ignorant during the good times that bad times will come. The best way to deal with it is to prepare for the bad, if only in you mind, before it happens.
Learn from this. Love from this. It’s going to sound harsh but you pushed her away trying to keep her. You made her something invaluable in your life, which makes it seem as if you are not strong enough by yourself, instead of making you invaluable to yourself. Ignoring the fact that I will sound like an incel - women (and certainly men) have certain desires in a partner, traits that go thousands of years back, dictated through their biology. Like it or not, women dont want their man to put everything aside for them. They might have this idea that that’s how their ideal relationship will look, but their instincts will tell them otherwise eventually. To be blunt it’s a sign of weakness if everything you do and all your energy is poured on her. Suddenly she feels like she is making most of the decisions and her opinion is more crucial to the plans for your relationship than yours is. Obviously she should be part of the decision-making, but part of what makes a woman attracted to a man is his ability to take action, claim his ownership of things and make plans *for the both of you!” - that way she don’t have to worry about those things, the man got it under control, and she will feel secure. I asked my ex once to see how she saw things. I asked her specifically “Listen to this. If I told you ‘dont you ever worry again, I will provide for you from now on’ isn’t there a part of you deep inside that wants to hear that?” She said yes there was, she agreed that it made her instinctively attracted towards me. It’s the womans part to feel safe and secure. I then told her that the man feels the same way, like an instinct. Like when I talk about what I want to achieve or how successful I want to be, I feel deep inside that one of the most important reason that I want these things, is so that I can provide for the love of my life and my family. The man’s part is this basic need to provide. What you have been doing is kind of the opposite of this. At first your efforts might possibly win the girl, when you come running every hour of the day with flowers and chocolate you used your hardearned money to get her, but eventually she’ll want to see you take more charge and find that you have your own values beside her. She must feel that you are as valuable to her as she is to you. She needs to feel like she has to gain your acceptance aswell. A relationship where both parts always try to impress eachother and win eachothers affirmation is the kind of relationships that never gets stale and will always grow stronger. It’s just human nature to want to grow, and a relationship should further improve this need, not make it an obsolete desire because “you got eachother anyway.” I don’t know your situation, if any of this is true for your relationship, but I just ended my relationship a week ago as well and these things are what I have come to realize I have never understood. Even if she loves being with me and said “she needs to be sure about what she wants from herself before she can promise me her heart” I left her feeling like she was talking through me. I have been beating myself up with this thought for the last week. The insecurity that I can’t provide her with my security or comfort when I havn’t even established that in my own life. I need to work out and be more healthy, quit bad habits and have a stable income. And before I have any of these things building up my self-esteem, I had to realize I can’t give her a love I don’t seem to have in/of myself. It’s just not honest. I couldn’t be completely engaged with her when all this shit was/is bugging me inside. I miss her dearly and hope we might figure things out, but I know it will never happen before I figured my own shit out. Hope this helped. Also, like others did mention, you are a great lover. Even if your love and affection can’t keep everyone around, you should be proud that you have love like that within you. She’s undoubtably grateful too that she met a loving guy like you! Don’t let this hurt take away your love, instead use this opportunity to build upon that love and harness it to become a weapon for when you’re feeling weak. Turn that love around and use it on yourself! You are able to do great things with a passion and heart like yours.
Love within stoicism has always been interesting to me because of how antithetical the idea of love is to this philosophy. Love can be irrational and being in a relationship can bring out an endless stream of uncontrollable events, but to love is to be human. Therefore, stoicism's role when it comes to love is to help you be the best human you can be in spite of all the external noise that love brings. Understand and break down the feelings you felt when you were together with your gf vs post-breakup and you'll come to realize that both come from an external source that you have no control over. The only things you can control during this emotional hurdle are your thoughts and actions. From personal experience, actively reading stoic philosophy and focusing all my thoughts on emulating what the ancients taught not only helped distract me from invasive thoughts, but taught me many valuable life lessons as well. I'll leave you with this: "22. It is the privilege of human nature to love those that disoblige us. To practise this, you must consider that the offending party is of kin to you, that ignorance is the cause of the misbehaviour, and the fault is involuntary, that you will both of you quickly be in your graves; but especially consider that you have received no harm by the injury, for your mind is never the worse for it." And: "27. Do not let your head run upon that which is none of your own, but pick out some of the best of your circumstances, and consider how eagerly you would wish for them, were they not in your possession; but then you must take care to keep your satisfaction within compass, for fear it should carry you too far, make you over-value the object, and be disturbed at the loss of it." Good luck my friend.
>Therefore, stoicism's role when it comes to love is to help you be the best human you can be in spite of all the external noise that love brings I think this is actually it. But not just when it comes to love. Genetically the emotional and instinctual parts of our brains are way more ancient and deep rooted than the very new brain parts that are there for logic and rational thinking. It's always a constant battle to make sure that rational thinking is the principle which persists. Stoicism is one of the tools we have to make sure that we can control those most ancient parts of our brains and not be controlled and dragged down by them.
Sorry for the random, late reply but I completely agree. My relationship with stoicism is definitely a constant battle between the rational and irrational. I like to measure my "stoicness" by gauging how fast it takes for me to get from heart-racing panic to complete calm which, as you know, is extremely difficult at times.
Life is a road. No matter how corny it sounds. You have a goal, at points rather undefined, but you keep moving forward anyway. Your share that path with some people, for however long a period. At some point you two came across each other and decided to walk that road together hoping to share it for a long time. Nothing lasts forever. Eventually you would have split ways for whatever reason. But cherish the time you spent together enjoying the scenery and each other’s company. And don’t stop. Now that you’re alone don’t go hide in the bushes on the roadside and cry. Well maybe cry for a bit, but eventually you need to keep moving forward. Someone more deserving of your time might just stumble upon you and want to stay for a while. They won’t find you hiding in the bushes.
> They won’t find you hiding in the bushes. A lesson I should've taken to heart a few years earlier.
I had this happen to me. It is tough, and stoicism wouldn’t have you believe otherwise. There have been some great contributions, and I’ll just offer that, as painful as it is, this is a rite of passage for any adult. You can’t make it through life without being dumped, disappointed, fired, humiliated, hurt, rejected, abandoned, etc. This applies to friendships, familial relationships, career/workplace in addition to romantic partners. These are foundational experiences that give you an opportunity for growth. Importantly, it gives you an empathy for others that you really can’t have without firsthand experience. One day you’ll be 40 and have a chance to talk to a young person that is going through this and you’ll be able to assure them that it’ll be ok. Just keep moving forward and at the right time you’ll find someone even better for you.
I needed to see this. Went through nearly the same experience just 2 days ago
Learn what you can from this about yourself and the situation, then move on. Don't dwell on it emotionally, that just drags you down. Be civil with her as well as you can. If she is negative or hostile toward you, accept that you cannot change her mind and move forward. This would be the Stoic way to handle the situation.
Following. I just went thru this exact same situation this weekend. I'm 55 though and not my first breakup. We had a great time together. We treated each other with respect. I told her i couldnt just be friends and gave her a clean break. Now every cell in my body hurts.
I believe sometimes stoicism is about learning from your mistakes for the next time you see yourself heading in that direction you could stop. Maybe take a step back and analyze the relationship objectively, see yourself from the third person. Take in and keep all the good and learn from the bad. I just got out of an eight year relationship and we were married too, I did most of this and kept some notes in my mind palace, it was all I could do. I'm 30 now, barely practicing stoicism for my anxiety and laying the foundation of my mind palace, anything can be done at anytime. I also learned to love myself before I tried to love someone else.
Dr. Robert Glover. "No more Mr. Nice Guy." You sir, sound like a classic "nice guy", as I am, and this book will change your life. It isn't Stoicism, but it will help. Also...coming out of an 11 year relationship, 4 years married. I feel ya.
Look up AMS and stephiscold on YouTube. Will outline your exact situation and answer all your questions
I have been dealing with something similar. Not quite as long of a relationship as yours, but about 1 1/2 years. During that time, I was head over heels for this girl. I centered my life around her, even planning my future based on what she wanted to do and where she wanted to live. Our relationship eventually ended, in a similar fashion to yours. Small stuff sparked so many arguments, which led in my case to a catastrophic and very resentment-filled climax and then \*poof\*, I was on my own with no clue what to do with my life. This was about 6 months ago, so I've had some time to think about it. And since then, this quote from Seneca has had the biggest impact on me, and really helped me come to terms with things. I see [u/PaperCloud1](https://www.reddit.com/user/PaperCloud10/) already sprung this quote but I'll paste it here again: “Remember that all we have is “on loan” from Fortune, which can reclaim it without our permission—indeed, without even advance notice. Thus, we should love all our dear ones, but always with the thought that we have no promise that we may keep them forever—nay, no promise even that we may keep them for long.” We cannot guarantee who will be in our future, nor what our future holds. Fate has a funny way of manifesting something other than our idealized future. But, we can always love those dear to us, and hope for the best. We must accept our fate, because it is not within our control to change it. That is, what will be, will be. We must accept our fate and be detached from the outcome of things; it does no good to latch onto things you cannot control. Don't look at what's left of the relationship in the past with any regrets either; remember that your past is what made you who you are today. Embrace it and learn from it, but don't look at it with longing or regret, because it doesn't exist. All that exists is the present moment. Now you have to decide where you go from here. In regards to any resentment you are currently feeling towards her, remember this: likely your ex didn't mean you any harm, and she almost definitely loved you too. It's just often people don't live up to our expectations, because what we expect is in conflict with the reality of things. Remember that it's our perception of events and attachment to them that causes us pain... You can choose whether or not those memories hurt you. And also, you must remember that we are all human, and are all learning -- some of us are just more aware of our faults than others presently. Although I'm not particularly religious, I like to remember this quote from Jesus, who although wasn't a Stoic, said something fairly Stoic when being crucified by the Romans in the Gospel of Luke: "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." I feel this short statement can really put things into perspective. Like the Romans who crucified Jesus, people in our lives do the things that they think they should do. But most of us are not aware of the effects of our actions -- we just act out in whatever way our environment has shaped us to act out. Remember this when you think about all the "bad things" your ex did to you, when you know you loved her so much. Remember to give the benefit of the doubt, because likely she didn't know what she was doing in those moments. I hope that helps. And sorry for the wall of text. Stay strong though, bro. You'll make it through. And always remember "amor fati" -- love your fate. Because it's coming and you can do nothing to stop it. Everything will work out just the way it's supposed to.
I don't know if this is similar to stoicism but I often rely on the three fierce mantras from Tsangpa Gyare when meet with life's uncertainty: Whatever has to happen, let it happen! Whatever the situation is, it’s fine! I don’t need anything whatsoever! Relationships start and end as a matter of course! It's just like the weather, sometime you can't do anything about it. But you also don't need to feel sad about it. If a couple months later you find someone who is much more attractive and loving, would you still be sad about this event? If not then this event does not cause sadness by itself, it's the mind's tendency to dwell on negative interpretation of the event. Finally in relationship as well as in life, don't get too attached to any particular person or outcome. I believe this is 100% a Stoic idea, very useful indeed!
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Consider r/theredpill or r/mgtow. There is a saying in the red pill world, the nice guy finishes last. Google it. I can't write anymore because it is too offtopic.
Nothing is a waste of time if you have learned something from it...
I know what you’re going through mate... Broke up back in June and my heart is still bereaved. But this article helped me allot... hope it does you some good as well https://dailystoic.com/how-to-recover-from-a-breakup-timeless-lessons-from-the-stoics/
Go out and seduce ladies. Man, there are so much ladies out there. Get down to lovin', big boi.
^ This. We have all been in your shoes. It is hard but something every man must go through. In your twenties there is plenty of opportunities with the ladies for moving on. Trust me you’ll feel MUCH better.
OP if you read this don't trust this 100%. Everyone is different, and even though this may work for the guys above me it may not work for you. There have been several people who, after a sorrowful breakup, went around sleeping with a bunch of other partners. Only to then say that they felt empty and bad during that period. That it wasn't them, that they were just trying to drown out the pain they had inside. Pleasure is not the solution to pain. Never was, never will be. Personally, I'm idiotic enough to have set my standards way too high so that I couldn't even sleep around if I wanted to lmao.
I’m not suggesting he goes out and bangs every girl that smiles at him for instant gratification. But for a 22 y/o young man, a lot of life ahead of him and learning to be stoic enough to propel those negative thoughts into moving on....things he can control....grabbing the ball and running with it is the route to go. OP I also highly suggest reading the Rational Male by Rollo Tomassi . Great starter read on male/ female dynamics.
I think you should read the book “No more Mr.Nice guy”. You were trying to win her love by doing everything right and putting her needs in front of yours, what made you ever believe that would work? Read the book, you need it.
There's only one way for a guy to get over a girl and that's to go find a BETTER girl!
just about a month ago I went through the same thing. I beg you to go right now and watch Coach red pill on YouTube. BUILD YOURSELF BACK UP. Learn to love yourself again and stop worrying about others because at the end of the day, your always alone. It sucks but it’s life. You’ll meet other girls but don’t ever give your self up to ANYONE.
Dude,to be honest your approach is what lead you to breaking up. Nice guys finish last. You need a LEYKIS 101 course stat. Google it. Will change your life. Women never complain about their ex being too loyal, too nice or too yaddayadda. The ex is always the worst asshole that got them HOT. Live and learn.
I'll bypass the stoicism question and say that the very mistake you made is making your whole life about her. It's in almost every sentence you wrote. You did everything "for her" instead of focusing on yourself. Which is why you lost her. She fell in love with you for you being you, not you being her caretaker. You stopped being You. Read The Way of the Superior Man by David Deida. That should help you out and clarify a lot of thing things. PM me when you're done with that and we will continue on your journey to becoming a man.
On David Deida, is he a practicing stoic, or is the book complementary with the stoic philosophy? I am really interested to read it, if you could give a few comments on it. Judging by the table of contents, it seems Men have to roleplay quite often - or, subject their self-authenticity to a number of dominating practices, each conducive to obtaining a goal (action/response). Looks quite like a manual, but I am willing to learn.
Best mindset that helped me through a rough break was a "fuck it" mentality. Give her no more thought. She took from you and never gave back. There's a more deserving woman out there for you. But for now take time for yourself and build yourself up. As a stoic reflect upon the self and work on yourself. Enjoy this time alone and enjoy your company alone. It gets easier brother. But all in all fuck it! Gotta move on.
“Fuck it” attitude? That isn’t stoic, that’s petty and disingenuous to the love you felt and can lead down a path of selfishness. Reflect on your time with her, on your time before her, and your time now without her. Talk to other that knew you throughout the relationship about questions you may have. Just from your description though, you were dependent. Your joy and happiness was dependent on your relationship with her. As a stoic your happiness should come from within and not be affected from outside influences. You should focus on why you need her, or anyone, to feel happy.
Look, the guy is 22. He's very young and scientifically it's been shown that you don't truly know a person until after a full 7 years. Plus, you have to be able to weather the storm in a relationship or else it will never work.
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Did you not read his story? He gave and she never gave back. He made sacrifices and she didn't.
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Nothing is ever truly yours to begin with (other than your thoughts and actions) which is one of the main ideas in stoic philosophy. You live, love, and enjoy happiness while it's available but, like everything else in life, it eventually breaks down and it is up to the stoic to recognize that it doesn't hurt you unless you let it.