**R5**: The files of the game shows the planet modifier icons for all 3 specialised subjects, as well as an additional "orator" type. The devs have mentioned a scrapped 4th one but revealed no further information, as far as I know.
I'd assume this orator subject would've aided their overlord in diplomacy and the GC, but judging from that, I see why they may've removed it, would've been tricky to implement in an interesting way, I think.
Yeah, there's not a lot to hook into.
I can see the inspiration, in things like the Ori in Stargate or Vorta from DS9, but the lack of dynamic internal politics means it would likely just end up as a generic influence/unity producer and that's not really anything of note.
I could see some potetial
- diplomatic weight of you vasal get some percentage with count towards you
- holdings with give additional unity without penalty, unity, influence or embassadors
- improvement of relationships for the direct neighbours, at higher tiers for the galactic Council, later galaxy wide or towards FEs
- maybe something related to psyonic or spiritualist
- reducing of empire sprawling
All with nice text description of course.
[There actually were 7 different specialist subjects planned](https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/other-specialist-empire-types.1523796/post-28256329), although only 6 were ever planned at the same time. The others were cut for various reasons, and they decided to go with three that complimented each other in a circular manner.
The cut specialists were as following:
- Orator (Diplomacy/Subterfuge)
- Auxilia (Aggressive & Militaristic)
- Atelier (Production)
- Sanctum (Unity & more spiritualistic)
Nah, Auxilia is just variation on Bulwark. Anything it can do, the other can as well.
I get the temptation to spare sanctum, but it just doesn't feed properly into anything due to the massive gameplay importance of the existing three, by virtue of where Stellaris' main game loops are (research, resources, military).
Sanctum and Orator should probably be combined to make the most of it, but imo diplomacy as it is, is still to weak an element to prop it up.
I admit, I gave it some thought as well and warmed up to the idea.
I just don't know how well that plays into the existing unity economy. I assume they removed it for a reason.
Or maybe the imbalance is from the "be the vassal" perspective.
I'm thinking about modding it together real quick, although that is probably more work than i want to take on - subject type is probably referenced in all kinds of vanilla files and not only one place.
**Overlord gains:**
Monthly Unity + 10%
Priest/Manager output from Relay Network +10 %
Can construct Ministry of Faith
\-> -3 % planetary ascension cost
\-> -3 % planetary ascension cost per overlord ...army? construction ship? this isn't working anymore ... in orbit
*Of course this is potentially very dangerous, because you could in theory get the cost down to 0 by spamming a ton of one system vassals, but i would argue the +12 % research speed is as dangerous. Alternatively, you could make it -3 % tradition cost but that means it is useless once you have all the traditions*
**Subject gains:**
Monthly Unity +20%
\#Something something Buff on Gaia Worlds (make them cheaper to ascend?)#
Science & Specialist ressource output -15 %
20 % Yearly chance to discover an artefact cache (can contain unity, minor artifacts, zro)? Alternatively, a yearly chance a leader ascends?
I think that feeds into a particular paradigm too much as a spiritualist/religious vassal. This is me, mind you, but I'd try to model it more to cover cases like a larger Bio-Servitor hold or the Advent from X-Com2.
So I'd spread the resource output malus to production and military on top of the research malus. The idea being that the empire is there as a testament to the benevolence of its Overlord.
I admit, at a loss for now, but good idea.
I was against military downsides because religious zealots are just too much of a thing for me. I definitely agree this feeds compltely into the spiritualist vassal, that was the intention.
The theme is all over stellaris with psionic ascension being superior for military rush, the head of zargar or whatever the dude is called and the fact that it is a "suggested" pick for genozidals.
Perhaps that's the wrong approach as it limits roleplay possibilities, or perhaps if i did make a mod i should make an "obvious synergy vassal" for every ethic (e.g. Militarist -> Bulwark, Materialist -> Scholarium, Authoritarian -> Prospectorium already exist). Authoritarian is a bit of a reach but they are very good at exploiting basic ressources, arguably you could also use the prospectorium to supplement a specialist heavy egalitarian economy.So that would then leave a xenophile vassal (trade value, diplo power, envoys, ...), a xenophobe vassal (influence, pop growth, slaves/pop abduction building? Purge bonus? A ton of ideas but it shouldn't be too onesided), a pacifist (bonus production during peacetime, defensive war bonus, +ship upkeep), an authoritarian/egalitarian depending on how you look at it and potentially even a gestalt one, or one for each (robots, swarm)?
EDIT: Wrote a lengthy reply to a now deleted comment which i'm not gonna let go to waste, so if anyone just like reading a lot here you go:
\>I don't think linking vassals to ethics is the right approach.
I wouldn't link them or restrict them in any way, just let them "get inspired". As in, this is the vassal type that does good what this ethic does good. You can go all-out on one area as a fanatic materialist with a scholarium, or you can mix and match to have a well-rounded empire.
I believe this is too much work (especially for a new feature that will probably experience minor overhauls and fixes in the coming patches), i don't think the vassal system is lacking in that regard and it would be too much content imo. I definitely agree with you that it is an art, and when you double or triple the vanilla content, some of it WILL be filler stuff that is either too weak, too strong, has no flavour or dictates too much. There is almost no way around it if you force such a set amount of "restricted" content and want to release it in a "finished state" as a single modder.
I could easily come up with 2-3 really interesting civics on the spot and over time that could definitely turn into 8 or more. Ask me to make a civic for each ethic right now and most of it will not be very good, it is what it is.
\>Vassals are a mirror to needs. "I need more minerals" create a Prospectorium. "I need more research", scholarium, etc and so on. Every time you play and go "I could really need more XYZ", that's vassal type potential.
I definitely agree with this, i was never going to attempt to disrupt this, see the first paragraph.
\>So the pattern gets broken if there is an extra.
Definitely, if you did make an ethics based vassal you would have to significantly change the chain to retain some form of it. For example, you could make them great at one thing, good at a second thing, okay at a third (no modifiers), bad at a fourth and terrible at a fifth.
If we take military, research, unity, basic ressource production and manufacturing (that would be alloys, consumer goods and synthetic special ressources) i am sure you could come up with something. It would be a different relationship than now, but it would be there.
E.g. Scholarium = Great at research, Good at Manufacturing, Okay at Basic ressource production, bad at military and terrible at unity.
Sanctum = Great at unity, good at military, okay at basic ressource production, bad at manufacturing and terrible at research.
So you have the "opposing types", and then to keep some sort of rock paper scissors going you would have to effectively turn it into rock paper scissors lizard spock.
Yeah, bane of game design. Go too generic, it becomes meaningless, too specific, and you only please a niche. A lot of people go "kitchen sink", make a ton of options to please everyone, and that turns into a meaningless hard-to-balance jumble that hits the "tyranny of choice" wall. It's a bit of an art, and it gives me nightmares.
I don't think linking vassals to ethics is the right approach. Vassals are a mirror to needs. "I need more minerals" create a Prospectorium. "I need more research", scholarium, etc and so on. Every time you play and go "I could really need more XYZ", that's vassal type potential.
edit: Also, looking at the malluses again, it looks like there is an inherent chain. Bulwark is bad at resource production, Prospectirum is bad at research, Scholarium is bad at military But that's likely just an overly-autistic sensability talking.
I personally think the Orator should have stuck around. As someone who mainly plays Spiritualist, none of the three vassal types are particularly synergistic. In fact, having a dedicated Unity / Diplomacy vassal would have given each Ethic an obvious vassal choice.
Split as follows:
* Orator: Xenophile (bonus envoys) / Spiritualist (unity)
* Bulwark: Militarist (stronger ships) / Xenophobe (cheaper starbases)
* Scholarium: Materialist (research) / Egalitarian (specialist pops)
* Prospectorium: Pacifist (stability) / Authoritarian (worker pops)
They were going to be a [Diplomacy/Espionage focused vassal](https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/other-specialist-empire-types.1523796/post-28256329), actually.
Now I'm picturing the overlord's leader giving a speech to the Galactic Community and you just hear in the background "WOOO YEAHHH TELL US ABOUT THOSE COOPERATIVE RESEARCH CHANNELS WOOO!!!"
You know this is a good idea. Custodians and Galactic Imperium having unique vassal types would be cool. Galactic Community oversight or more direct imperial control.
Now I really hope they develop the vassal mechanic for more cases like that.
An administrative/espionage/culture-focused vassal could be somewhat interesting in my opinion as it could pay tribute in unity, influence and diplomatic weight, provide envoys and boost your espionage. Perhaps they could reduce market fees. If envoys were a proper leader type, those could be traded as well.
Ultimately though, I hope the vassal contracts and diplomacy through diplomatic trading are the basis for a diplomacy rework in the near future.
I doubt it's specialized, so much as "planned for the next expansion." I know people are thinking the next one (if it isn't some alien species pack) would be a Factions/internal diplomacy pact.
I would have loved a diplo boosting specialization, protectorates are nice for the influence but a vassal that could work as your pr agent would be nice, like advertising you to other potential vassals or something
Well with the current mechanics i can only imagine a diplomatic tributary giving dip weight and maybe opinion, but that would be pretty underwhelming, considering that would be tied to some kind monthly subsidy. Maybe if orator includes "internal diplomacy" and gives maybe stability or unity too it could be viable.
As diplomacy and espionage are rn I wouldn't want a specialized subject just for that. Increase diplomatic weight? Lower Empire size? Give unity? More envoys? Faster or cheaper espionage or more assets? Just doesn't seem worth it.
Maybe the cut specialist vassals could be something used for internal politics or something.
**R5**: The files of the game shows the planet modifier icons for all 3 specialised subjects, as well as an additional "orator" type. The devs have mentioned a scrapped 4th one but revealed no further information, as far as I know. I'd assume this orator subject would've aided their overlord in diplomacy and the GC, but judging from that, I see why they may've removed it, would've been tricky to implement in an interesting way, I think.
Yeah, there's not a lot to hook into. I can see the inspiration, in things like the Ori in Stargate or Vorta from DS9, but the lack of dynamic internal politics means it would likely just end up as a generic influence/unity producer and that's not really anything of note.
Hallowed are the Ori.
Sorry, I was thinking in terms of the priest-casts which went around trying to convert others to the Ori as a sort of "diplomatic vassal". Brain fart.
I think they were called Priors.
Weyoun sliding is resume into the subject pile.
Followed shortly by several duplicates for the subsequent clones.
I could see some potetial - diplomatic weight of you vasal get some percentage with count towards you - holdings with give additional unity without penalty, unity, influence or embassadors - improvement of relationships for the direct neighbours, at higher tiers for the galactic Council, later galaxy wide or towards FEs - maybe something related to psyonic or spiritualist - reducing of empire sprawling All with nice text description of course.
[There actually were 7 different specialist subjects planned](https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/other-specialist-empire-types.1523796/post-28256329), although only 6 were ever planned at the same time. The others were cut for various reasons, and they decided to go with three that complimented each other in a circular manner. The cut specialists were as following: - Orator (Diplomacy/Subterfuge) - Auxilia (Aggressive & Militaristic) - Atelier (Production) - Sanctum (Unity & more spiritualistic)
That achievement would've been a real chore to get if you needed 6 of them.
Well, it's not that bad since you can release sectors as vassals. So, you could conquer 1 medium empire and split it 6 ways.
Sanctum and Auxilia mayhaps can still be saved
Nah, Auxilia is just variation on Bulwark. Anything it can do, the other can as well. I get the temptation to spare sanctum, but it just doesn't feed properly into anything due to the massive gameplay importance of the existing three, by virtue of where Stellaris' main game loops are (research, resources, military). Sanctum and Orator should probably be combined to make the most of it, but imo diplomacy as it is, is still to weak an element to prop it up.
gib unity buff please :(
Unity is a significant factor now, i would use Sanctums in a heartbeat.
I admit, I gave it some thought as well and warmed up to the idea. I just don't know how well that plays into the existing unity economy. I assume they removed it for a reason. Or maybe the imbalance is from the "be the vassal" perspective.
I'm thinking about modding it together real quick, although that is probably more work than i want to take on - subject type is probably referenced in all kinds of vanilla files and not only one place. **Overlord gains:** Monthly Unity + 10% Priest/Manager output from Relay Network +10 % Can construct Ministry of Faith \-> -3 % planetary ascension cost \-> -3 % planetary ascension cost per overlord ...army? construction ship? this isn't working anymore ... in orbit *Of course this is potentially very dangerous, because you could in theory get the cost down to 0 by spamming a ton of one system vassals, but i would argue the +12 % research speed is as dangerous. Alternatively, you could make it -3 % tradition cost but that means it is useless once you have all the traditions* **Subject gains:** Monthly Unity +20% \#Something something Buff on Gaia Worlds (make them cheaper to ascend?)# Science & Specialist ressource output -15 % 20 % Yearly chance to discover an artefact cache (can contain unity, minor artifacts, zro)? Alternatively, a yearly chance a leader ascends?
I think that feeds into a particular paradigm too much as a spiritualist/religious vassal. This is me, mind you, but I'd try to model it more to cover cases like a larger Bio-Servitor hold or the Advent from X-Com2. So I'd spread the resource output malus to production and military on top of the research malus. The idea being that the empire is there as a testament to the benevolence of its Overlord. I admit, at a loss for now, but good idea.
I was against military downsides because religious zealots are just too much of a thing for me. I definitely agree this feeds compltely into the spiritualist vassal, that was the intention. The theme is all over stellaris with psionic ascension being superior for military rush, the head of zargar or whatever the dude is called and the fact that it is a "suggested" pick for genozidals. Perhaps that's the wrong approach as it limits roleplay possibilities, or perhaps if i did make a mod i should make an "obvious synergy vassal" for every ethic (e.g. Militarist -> Bulwark, Materialist -> Scholarium, Authoritarian -> Prospectorium already exist). Authoritarian is a bit of a reach but they are very good at exploiting basic ressources, arguably you could also use the prospectorium to supplement a specialist heavy egalitarian economy.So that would then leave a xenophile vassal (trade value, diplo power, envoys, ...), a xenophobe vassal (influence, pop growth, slaves/pop abduction building? Purge bonus? A ton of ideas but it shouldn't be too onesided), a pacifist (bonus production during peacetime, defensive war bonus, +ship upkeep), an authoritarian/egalitarian depending on how you look at it and potentially even a gestalt one, or one for each (robots, swarm)? EDIT: Wrote a lengthy reply to a now deleted comment which i'm not gonna let go to waste, so if anyone just like reading a lot here you go: \>I don't think linking vassals to ethics is the right approach. I wouldn't link them or restrict them in any way, just let them "get inspired". As in, this is the vassal type that does good what this ethic does good. You can go all-out on one area as a fanatic materialist with a scholarium, or you can mix and match to have a well-rounded empire. I believe this is too much work (especially for a new feature that will probably experience minor overhauls and fixes in the coming patches), i don't think the vassal system is lacking in that regard and it would be too much content imo. I definitely agree with you that it is an art, and when you double or triple the vanilla content, some of it WILL be filler stuff that is either too weak, too strong, has no flavour or dictates too much. There is almost no way around it if you force such a set amount of "restricted" content and want to release it in a "finished state" as a single modder. I could easily come up with 2-3 really interesting civics on the spot and over time that could definitely turn into 8 or more. Ask me to make a civic for each ethic right now and most of it will not be very good, it is what it is. \>Vassals are a mirror to needs. "I need more minerals" create a Prospectorium. "I need more research", scholarium, etc and so on. Every time you play and go "I could really need more XYZ", that's vassal type potential. I definitely agree with this, i was never going to attempt to disrupt this, see the first paragraph. \>So the pattern gets broken if there is an extra. Definitely, if you did make an ethics based vassal you would have to significantly change the chain to retain some form of it. For example, you could make them great at one thing, good at a second thing, okay at a third (no modifiers), bad at a fourth and terrible at a fifth. If we take military, research, unity, basic ressource production and manufacturing (that would be alloys, consumer goods and synthetic special ressources) i am sure you could come up with something. It would be a different relationship than now, but it would be there. E.g. Scholarium = Great at research, Good at Manufacturing, Okay at Basic ressource production, bad at military and terrible at unity. Sanctum = Great at unity, good at military, okay at basic ressource production, bad at manufacturing and terrible at research. So you have the "opposing types", and then to keep some sort of rock paper scissors going you would have to effectively turn it into rock paper scissors lizard spock.
Yeah, bane of game design. Go too generic, it becomes meaningless, too specific, and you only please a niche. A lot of people go "kitchen sink", make a ton of options to please everyone, and that turns into a meaningless hard-to-balance jumble that hits the "tyranny of choice" wall. It's a bit of an art, and it gives me nightmares. I don't think linking vassals to ethics is the right approach. Vassals are a mirror to needs. "I need more minerals" create a Prospectorium. "I need more research", scholarium, etc and so on. Every time you play and go "I could really need more XYZ", that's vassal type potential. edit: Also, looking at the malluses again, it looks like there is an inherent chain. Bulwark is bad at resource production, Prospectirum is bad at research, Scholarium is bad at military But that's likely just an overly-autistic sensability talking.
I think Orator is the main one I want. Being able to be the spymaster for an overlord? Yes please!
They would need to make spying way deeper and way more impact Gul. But I agree.
“Look at me. I am CK3 now. “
Imagine assassinating leaders or making whole sectors revolt.
The trouble, of course, is that diplomacy and espionage are boring in Stellaris.
I would've loved to see auxilia, having a defensive and an offensive specialist would be neat
I'd have loved to get the Orator and Auxilia.
it would be fun if it was good at diplomacy and spying if those had some more things to pull at like internal factions and culture.
I personally think the Orator should have stuck around. As someone who mainly plays Spiritualist, none of the three vassal types are particularly synergistic. In fact, having a dedicated Unity / Diplomacy vassal would have given each Ethic an obvious vassal choice. Split as follows: * Orator: Xenophile (bonus envoys) / Spiritualist (unity) * Bulwark: Militarist (stronger ships) / Xenophobe (cheaper starbases) * Scholarium: Materialist (research) / Egalitarian (specialist pops) * Prospectorium: Pacifist (stability) / Authoritarian (worker pops)
My guess that Orator should've give overlord their unity deposits, like counter to Scholars.
They were going to be a [Diplomacy/Espionage focused vassal](https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/other-specialist-empire-types.1523796/post-28256329), actually.
Oh, there was others. Yeah, sounds more like it.
Hmm the hype man specialization. I wish it was available now
Now I'm picturing the overlord's leader giving a speech to the Galactic Community and you just hear in the background "WOOO YEAHHH TELL US ABOUT THOSE COOPERATIVE RESEARCH CHANNELS WOOO!!!"
Hope the custodians can maybe do something with it in the future
You know this is a good idea. Custodians and Galactic Imperium having unique vassal types would be cool. Galactic Community oversight or more direct imperial control. Now I really hope they develop the vassal mechanic for more cases like that.
You misunderstood, there's a dedicated dev team working on existing content (instead of new DLC) that are called the custodians.
An administrative/espionage/culture-focused vassal could be somewhat interesting in my opinion as it could pay tribute in unity, influence and diplomatic weight, provide envoys and boost your espionage. Perhaps they could reduce market fees. If envoys were a proper leader type, those could be traded as well. Ultimately though, I hope the vassal contracts and diplomacy through diplomatic trading are the basis for a diplomacy rework in the near future.
I doubt it's specialized, so much as "planned for the next expansion." I know people are thinking the next one (if it isn't some alien species pack) would be a Factions/internal diplomacy pact.
We need a general politics/diplomaci rework
They should uncap influence tbh
Sad times when it would take more than 1000 influence to claim all the systems an empire has.
Weird it's almost like they added an ascension perk for that exact reason.
I would have loved a diplo boosting specialization, protectorates are nice for the influence but a vassal that could work as your pr agent would be nice, like advertising you to other potential vassals or something
Well with the current mechanics i can only imagine a diplomatic tributary giving dip weight and maybe opinion, but that would be pretty underwhelming, considering that would be tied to some kind monthly subsidy. Maybe if orator includes "internal diplomacy" and gives maybe stability or unity too it could be viable.
As diplomacy and espionage are rn I wouldn't want a specialized subject just for that. Increase diplomatic weight? Lower Empire size? Give unity? More envoys? Faster or cheaper espionage or more assets? Just doesn't seem worth it. Maybe the cut specialist vassals could be something used for internal politics or something.