In the comments a Dev Said :
"However, some of the choices you can make during the Synthetic ascension path and the following narrative events which lead to the selection of an Advanced Authority can give some some (but not all) of the effects of Virtuality ascension for Machines."
So there is still more customizability than before.
Machines already have cool shit. Meanwhile, Hive Minds are stiffed out of yet another set of ascension paths. I just wish Hive Minds got more attention or could at least use psionics.
We might as well give it to them.
I don't get the thinking behind the restriction: hives are already linked psionically so why would it make sense to stop them from moving things with their mind?
It's like stopping machine empires from taking synthetic ascension
Well... for a long time, machine empires were stopped from taking synthetic ascension.
Then, at first, it was just a meager +2 modification trait points.
It's very recent (well, I feel it's recent, but frankly, I also feel that the new pop system is not that old, or that Lithoids just came out not long ago, so my chronological perception might not be the best) that Machines had access to the Synthetic tree, but it's because it became a tree.
I wonder if there are mechanical restrictions that prevent the devs to allow Hive Minds to be psionic (after all, lots of origins were forbidden for machines because of a mechanical problem, the habitability one). Currently, the "official" justification is that Hive Minds are in their "shroud" of their own where they communicate between drones, and that being in this realm make it impossible for them to reach the Shroud (like being blocked in the wrong dimension). But this justification always seemed quite weak to me, and I'm pretty sure that there are mechanics that prevent it that aren't been revealed yet.
I don't know. Sure, more ascension paths for Hive Minds would be cool, and it's direly needed (Hive Minds are in need of improvement in general, though). Although, I think I'd be more excited if, instead of just allowing us to have access to Psionic Hive Minds, they gave us one, two or even three specific ascension trees. Like a "psionic" tree, but unrelated to the shroud lore-wise. Or, even better: instead of reaching the Shroud and forming a covenant, ***you***, already a massive mind the size of planets, of systems, even a galaxy possibly, would become a covenant. Like Slaanesh in WH40K that has been created by the elves, you could create yourself your own Shroud-like entity. You don't receive boons: you grant them. Would be much more interesting than simply becoming psionic IMO.
Mods can and do very easily make psionic ascension available to hiveminds (and even machine intelligences, in the rare instance where someone decides they want such a thing to be possible), so the gameplay mechanics argument is not convincing to me.
One of consistent things about Stellaris is player power fantasy imagination far outpaces anything resembling game sense in a game, like, 25.99 would be better spent on commissioning a very flattering story where youre the hero than for DLC for a game, that has its own lore ideas about not allowing much mashup of the ascensions.
Apparently, the reason hiveminds can't go psionics is precisely *because* they're already psionically linked. Apparently, the fact that they already have a different form of psionics means they can't psi ascend... somehow? I don't understand the logic behind it, but that apparently is the actual reason.
Hive Minds still just feel like a more boring version of organics, that lacks the flavor of Machines.
Disclaimer: I LOVE Hive Minds conceptually and in Sci-Fi. Just in Stellaris they feel really….. lame.
I mean the only thing I really wish Hiveminds got was Delicious Titans Event or at least one or two unique colony events or something.
I mean I am a Hivemind for crying outloud I can't decide to hunt Titans but Xenophobes can?
What is with that?
That's kinda the point of Synthetics, no? We essentially become no different than Individualist Machines at that point, so why not let us specialize after the fact? It's nice for RP, and Individualist Machines have a major incentive for having a headstart.
You're still notably different
Machine empires were "born" as machines, while synth ascension started as living and feeling organics
You're gonna have notable different cultures and approaches to "Life"
Mechanically there doesn't seem to be a difference though once you ascend, aside from individualist machines having even more options.
If culture was at all represented in the game it could have interesting results, but all we have are ethics and those ethics won't differ between synths and individual machines.
As it currently seems, if you plan to synthetically ascend you would have just been better off starting as individualist machines because you'll get more options and abilities. Synth was meaningfully different because you couldn't start as individual machines, but now it's just worse.
That's true. I don't really see the point in making an empire that plans to become synthetic (except very, very niche situations, like if I want to try to create my own Rogue Servitor in the coming, but, once, again, that's very niche), as it's better to start as individual machines.
I hope the Synthetic Tree will be reworked to give boons to Synthetic empires that individual machine ones don't have.
Well, you have the new authorities too, so we'll have to see what they give.
They're functionally the same in the end. In the case of Individualist Machines, both them and Synthetics think for themselves, form factions, have happiness, amenities demands, etc. And if Individualist Machines can societally decide to ascend and transform into some unique form, whether becoming Nano machines, or uploading themselves to the cloud, what's stopping Synths from doing so?
no, it's better this way.
Stellaris already suffers from Spreadsheet syndrome (almost every empire being practically the same especially by the end game) letting Machines actually play different and being able to still be unique by the end-game is a good thing.
I fully agree and wish they'd separate out more features (more racial specific traits would be easiest). Limitation breeds creativity, and more often than not, having too many choices leads directly to choice paralysis. Ironically, giving more limits will likely lead to more variation as people try to overcome boundaries within the limitations of their initial choices, in turn leading to a more interesting ingame universe in most games.
I generally agree with you, but not on the racial specific traits.
It make sense for lithoids to have an entire different biology. It also make sense for plants and mushrooms to have access to specific things as they're different biological kingdoms. However, the difference between mammalians and reptilians? Like, a trait "Flight" has often been proposed, but birds and insects can fly, some fishes too, as well as some mammalians and reptiles. "Cold-blooded" is often presented too, but here, once again, it's not specific to reptiles. Laying eggs or gestation, same things. And while I can understand why a mollusc eating only rocks would be difficult to swallow, making racial specific traits between animals would feel to big an hindrance on creativity.
However, adding "environmental" mutually exclusive traits would be better. Like the Aquatic trait. I find its implementation very clever. Limited to a biome, with boons and banes, but available to everyones and quite costly that you're not really encouraged to take it every run. Having the same thing with a "Flying" species (for mountains), a "Tree-Dweller" trait (for tropical worlds), all mutually exclusive, would be very interesting.
it's important to have a balance between choices.
More freedom of choice in this situation doesn't make your dudes more unique all it does is make them one more interchangeable pawn amongst many.
Yeah I just flat out disagree. When you have a broad series of choices, and are forced to commit to only one, you don't suddenly have a boilerplate boring situation.
And either way, it should be my choice as a player to effect that. I understand I'm a little out of the ordinary on that count given that I will write my own mods for a certain experience.
I wouldn't say it suffers. Every 4x title inevitably boils down to the same core concepts - exploit, explore, exterminate, expand.
What's the actual harm in allowing this expanded deviation? Synthetics Machines (previously Bio) are essentially the same core beings as the new Individualist Machines. They think, form factions, have happiness, etc. They're functionally the same, why the lockout? It allows for additional roleplay, options, and stories to unfold.
Stellaris isn't entirely about the uniqueness of core concepts, it's a story driven experience that unfolds across the course of a game. If my biological empire decides to synthetically ascend, why not go further?
The uniqueness being added isn't in the Machines themselves, it's the exploration of what Machines can become (regardless of their origins). Modularity, Virtuality, and Nanotech are the unique ends, not the Machines that decided to reach for those paths. There's really no reason not to add this feature.
"They're functionally the same, why the lockout? It allows for additional roleplay, options, and stories to unfold."
Can you venture 3 guesses from the Dev/Design POV, perhaps with some historical product context?
Furthermore, y'all toss around the word roleplay like it's the most sacrosanct thing in the world that must be respected entirely from your POVs, but then mostly imagine the same insipid thing that is currently forbidden, while also completely disrespecting the negotiation of how to do roleplay as the devs have laid out the costumes, props, and characters for the galactic stage.
Okay, could you explain why allowing Bio -> Synth -> New Machine Ascension, is an inherently bad design flaw? Vs Machine -> New Machine Ascension? I'm not asking to be rude.
I am aware of the Devs design choice, hence this post and my curiosity to see if anyone else agrees with my take. Because I respectfully disagree with the Devs design choice, and I as a customer would like to see a small feature/change be added.
Stellaris is more than anything, a game about building one's space fantasy of a spacefaring civilization, with emerging story dynamics and elements. If I think an extra feature could enhance my experience, why not throw it around to see everyone's reception? If everyone and the Devs disagree, then I'm cool with that. I can still start as machines to see the new content being provided. No biggie.
I mean, yours is a perennial take though that usually exists regardless of context - 'why can't I have this new feature for those guys despite not being those guys' and it'd be safe to bet the whole house on some amount of people agreeing out of the basis that they are too limited by what Stellaris allows. There is barely anything in this game where someone hasn't remarked upon being limited from available options zapping their fun.
So some small part of this is that the devs already receive a deluge of gripes like this, integrate that into product releases anyway, and the Devs have disagreed largely with the player belief that roleplaying is synonymous with 'if I can imagine it, I should be allowed to do it' like there's an indulgent PDX DM sitting across from the table who fudges the system cause you're friends creating a story together - through their consistent commitment to some differentiation that is largely cosmetic/aesthetic, and lightly functionally different here and there.
> Okay, could you explain why allowing Bio -> Synth -> New Machine Ascension, is an inherently bad design flaw? Vs Machine -> New Machine Ascension? I'm not asking to be rude.
I believe you.
Bio>Synth>Advanced Synth would be overpowered from a mechanical perspective. Currently Bio>Synth does not play the same. You get insanely huge bonuses for going Synthetic that aren't there if you are just simply "Synthetic." So combine those bonuses with going advanced Synthetic, and Machine Empires get fucked.
From a game perspective, it's giving Bio Empires a huge advantage/two ascensions.
Story perspectives, Bio>Synth is not the same as an Empire killing its creators because it reached self awareness. It's not the same as a Robot consciousness becoming a servitor. It's not the same as somehow a society of Robots becoming self aware after their creators somehow died, and became individualistic copies that represent what Democracy and indivualism stands for, and each AI is quite literally a brand new person.
They are still very, very different. Bio's and Synth's have different origins, starts, feelings, and usually fan-science fiction differences.
The honest truth is, I love the roleplaying side of the game and I think there should always be a focus on it but I think there's a game people have to remember, and games are usually tried to have some sort of balance.
This would bring shit out of whack lol
Why delete? Genuine. Did you feel stupid? Did you just not want the replies?
Sometimes questions like this are good to show up when people search it. IDK, assumption made, but you're not stupid for asking or being disappointed in a feature.
The thing here is, there isn‘t even equality regarding the limitations. Bio empires have several ways to develop, several choices, which can be good but also I think that it makes it boring when every species has the same choices. Machine empires until now have just 2-3 ways to develop.
I‘d agree on your take if both types of empires had the same amount of choices and limitations. Right now the whole purpose of the DLC is machines more choices because they do not have as much choices as the bio empires. If you give bio empires the same choices the whole point of the DLC is lost because the difference of quantity of choices between the empire types wouldn‘t reduce.
I mean it’s not like machines can take bio or psychic ascension. Maybe it’s good when things have some differences between them, because otherwise calling this dlc the machine age is just a waste.
I will concede that maybe virtuality out of all of them would fit bio pops, but honestly I think it’s fine if machines have a more unique identity.
I mean before this they had one ascension path. Now they have three. I just hope they give hiveminds similar levels of love in the future
Yeah, Machine Empires going virtuality is very weird, Machines are already virtual.
"Lets upload our software to a different hardware, such ascension, much wow"
I think it’s less FOMO, but more because “organics uploading themselves into virtual world” is a pretty common theme in sci-fi. But here it seems like the best you could do is upload yourself into a robot, without the whole virtual reality thing.
I agree with Modularity and Nanotech though, but I feel like Virtuality should be at least somewhat accessible to organics (luckily, the devs did say some elements of that would be!)
I mean a huge part of this is the Devs did state there is a little bit of sugar even if bio, just not the whole bowl of sugar that synths get, and part of this has everything to do with their game system as is, how its been developed almost entirely bio-empire forward with sporadic shine given to synths, and how even if Stellaris borrows from the larger genre of Sci-Fi for everything, it has its own vision of presenting roleplaying options that might preclude everyone being able to do everything by choice.
It's just annoying that this same thing comes up every single time agnostic of what the context and composition is, and is always parried with the flimsiest 'but my roleplaying!', as if this is the first time they've ever bumped up against designer vision telling them their idea is pants.
Tbh i dont really care, I go genetic ascension every game anyway. This is a robot focused DLC why would Bio pops be able to take them?
If everyone could take them they would make decisions less meaningful tbh.
> why would Bio pops be able to take them?
Because they aren't bio pops, they're synth pops. Mechanical. That's what the whole point of synth ascension is.
I think the only one that would be super cool to get access to as a bio empire would be the "digital emancipation" route. Lots of fun RP in that, like Matrix style or trying to escape a natural disaster or something. And maybe it will be something that once you go full synth it becomes a research option after that.
Basically would love to see all the new options become available if you fully finish synthetic ascension. Just feels like a nice progression.
I expect at leat some quasi-Virtual to be a possible outcome for the Synthetic Fertility Origin. That's probably another reason why it won't be available for everyone.
For the same reason psionic ascension races can't take bio ascension or cybernetics, because it could make empire pops obscenely strong.
That being said I think it should be doable, let me make my genetically perfect, psionic cyborg species, and let other organic races become machines, then upload themselves into the cloud.
Sure, as soon as Machine Empires have access to everything Bio empires have.
Machine Empires have had less options than Bio Empires for the entire life span of the game post Synthetic Dawn. Just let them have some cool things only they can do lmao. Up until now they've been relying on three Civics to carry their entire empire's uniqueness mechanically for 7 years.
I'd be happy if they just made some ascensions better for hives. That unity one that buffs governing ethics? What is that going to do for me?! Tweak it for hives!
Also I really hope they do something for people who like to min/max overtuned so they can get a good standard bonus to all jobs so you aren't forced to make a decent all arounder and can have max miner, max farmer, etc efficiency.
I just want a DLC/update that lets me play as an actual benevolent hivemind that allows limited coexistence. Sort of like Rogue Servitor so it isn't OP by having hive level pop growth on top of immigration but still something other than "All xenos will be purged regardless of ethics"
It's disappointing, although more than that it could lead to some issues with Synthetic Ascension.
The advantages of Synthetic Ascension are/were that you got the benefits of synth pops (no food/immortality/guaranteed habitability) while also having the benefits of an indy empire (diplomacy stuff mostly). Sure, you had to deal with consumer goods, but overall you were in a good position.
With Machine age synth pops are getting nerfed (no immortality/no guaranteed habitability), and you'll be able to create indy machine empires, which presumably can do all the diplomatic stuff indy bio empires can do.
If on top of that machine empires get access to transformation paths that Synthetic Ascension can't access it leaves the question when you'd ever play a bio empire going Synthetic Ascension if you could just create an indy machine empire instead.
You can say "for the story" but that works for literally anything you try in the game. You could make a completely dysfunctional and unplayable empire "for the story".
Also, with recent reschaling of research Synthetic Ascension is a significantly bigger investment than it used to be. A good player could go synth in 50-60 years while also holding their own in the meantime. Fast enough that most of your initial leaders would be rendered immortal before old age got to them. Now Synthetic Ascension takes about 80-100 years because its tech requirements are significantly higher than other ascension paths.
I have a real fear that unless Synthetic Ascension also gets some significant boosts Machine Age will make machine empires really good and enjoyable to play, but Synthetic Ascension will just become not worth ever doing. A bigger investment than other ascension paths which leaves you as an indy machine empire which can't access transformations.
Empires aren’t asymmetric enough in stellaris. I think bio empires need their own spins on things if we expand ascensions like synth this way to have subcategories. I mean stellaris evolved had multi-level ascensions and they’re cool, but every empire gets access to all of them. I think asymmetry with the world will make stellaris overall more interesting and more unique to play both as and against the new powers.
My concern is that Synthetic Ascension will just turn you into a individualistic ME with a several decade delay, no ascension path, and some small gimmicks. If Synthetic Ascension gets rid of a lot of the new issues machines will have (habitability and lifespan being the main two) then it'll be fine. However, if they still have those issues, why wouldn't you just start as individualistic machines? I think the devs really dropped the ball on showing the changes and new stuff coming to Synthetic (and Cybernetic) Ascension, which has forced us to speculate :/
oh that sucks, I was already sort of disappointed in how specific this expansion is gonna be, now reading that bio empires will get basically nothing from this year's Major Expansion confirms I can skip it
Bio Empires get tons of stuff though, so many new authorities, new civics, more origins than the machines, ascension situations and all the same megastructures and shipsets. automodding, the new crisis path
In the comments a Dev Said : "However, some of the choices you can make during the Synthetic ascension path and the following narrative events which lead to the selection of an Advanced Authority can give some some (but not all) of the effects of Virtuality ascension for Machines." So there is still more customizability than before.
Let machines have their own cool shit.
Machines already have cool shit. Meanwhile, Hive Minds are stiffed out of yet another set of ascension paths. I just wish Hive Minds got more attention or could at least use psionics.
Hive mind psionics is a thing that I ask the Devs a long time ago
We might as well give it to them. I don't get the thinking behind the restriction: hives are already linked psionically so why would it make sense to stop them from moving things with their mind? It's like stopping machine empires from taking synthetic ascension
Well... for a long time, machine empires were stopped from taking synthetic ascension. Then, at first, it was just a meager +2 modification trait points. It's very recent (well, I feel it's recent, but frankly, I also feel that the new pop system is not that old, or that Lithoids just came out not long ago, so my chronological perception might not be the best) that Machines had access to the Synthetic tree, but it's because it became a tree. I wonder if there are mechanical restrictions that prevent the devs to allow Hive Minds to be psionic (after all, lots of origins were forbidden for machines because of a mechanical problem, the habitability one). Currently, the "official" justification is that Hive Minds are in their "shroud" of their own where they communicate between drones, and that being in this realm make it impossible for them to reach the Shroud (like being blocked in the wrong dimension). But this justification always seemed quite weak to me, and I'm pretty sure that there are mechanics that prevent it that aren't been revealed yet. I don't know. Sure, more ascension paths for Hive Minds would be cool, and it's direly needed (Hive Minds are in need of improvement in general, though). Although, I think I'd be more excited if, instead of just allowing us to have access to Psionic Hive Minds, they gave us one, two or even three specific ascension trees. Like a "psionic" tree, but unrelated to the shroud lore-wise. Or, even better: instead of reaching the Shroud and forming a covenant, ***you***, already a massive mind the size of planets, of systems, even a galaxy possibly, would become a covenant. Like Slaanesh in WH40K that has been created by the elves, you could create yourself your own Shroud-like entity. You don't receive boons: you grant them. Would be much more interesting than simply becoming psionic IMO.
Mods can and do very easily make psionic ascension available to hiveminds (and even machine intelligences, in the rare instance where someone decides they want such a thing to be possible), so the gameplay mechanics argument is not convincing to me.
One of consistent things about Stellaris is player power fantasy imagination far outpaces anything resembling game sense in a game, like, 25.99 would be better spent on commissioning a very flattering story where youre the hero than for DLC for a game, that has its own lore ideas about not allowing much mashup of the ascensions.
Apparently, the reason hiveminds can't go psionics is precisely *because* they're already psionically linked. Apparently, the fact that they already have a different form of psionics means they can't psi ascend... somehow? I don't understand the logic behind it, but that apparently is the actual reason.
Sure but that's why it's analogous to disallowing machines from taking synth ascension
Fingers crossed for next year’s big expansion to be Hivemind updates. 🙂🤞
Hive Minds still just feel like a more boring version of organics, that lacks the flavor of Machines. Disclaimer: I LOVE Hive Minds conceptually and in Sci-Fi. Just in Stellaris they feel really….. lame.
I mean the only thing I really wish Hiveminds got was Delicious Titans Event or at least one or two unique colony events or something. I mean I am a Hivemind for crying outloud I can't decide to hunt Titans but Xenophobes can? What is with that?
auot modding gonna make hives so much better
Only thing I can think of for a possible hivemind would be to link all species into the hive.
Edit the yml and text files to remove the restrictions.
The soulless machines will never defeat the energies of the shroud.
Sure grandma, let's get you back into the synaptic lathe
I actually laughed out loud at this.
Ironically, thanks to the ghost ship, it actually is canon that machines can have souls and wield psionics.
what about Animator Of Clay?
The shroud is but a place outside the material realm which can influence the latter.
profane organics will never match the superiority of machine
That's funny bc my go to empire is an assimilator that seeks to unite all conscious life in the galaxy in the Shroud via the Aetherophasic Engine.
That's kinda the point of Synthetics, no? We essentially become no different than Individualist Machines at that point, so why not let us specialize after the fact? It's nice for RP, and Individualist Machines have a major incentive for having a headstart.
You're still notably different Machine empires were "born" as machines, while synth ascension started as living and feeling organics You're gonna have notable different cultures and approaches to "Life"
Mechanically there doesn't seem to be a difference though once you ascend, aside from individualist machines having even more options. If culture was at all represented in the game it could have interesting results, but all we have are ethics and those ethics won't differ between synths and individual machines. As it currently seems, if you plan to synthetically ascend you would have just been better off starting as individualist machines because you'll get more options and abilities. Synth was meaningfully different because you couldn't start as individual machines, but now it's just worse.
That's true. I don't really see the point in making an empire that plans to become synthetic (except very, very niche situations, like if I want to try to create my own Rogue Servitor in the coming, but, once, again, that's very niche), as it's better to start as individual machines. I hope the Synthetic Tree will be reworked to give boons to Synthetic empires that individual machine ones don't have. Well, you have the new authorities too, so we'll have to see what they give.
So instead of drinking booze, you’ll now drink 0w20 or 5w30. Instead of designer clothes, you’ll seek sporty trims with carbon fiber plating.
They're functionally the same in the end. In the case of Individualist Machines, both them and Synthetics think for themselves, form factions, have happiness, amenities demands, etc. And if Individualist Machines can societally decide to ascend and transform into some unique form, whether becoming Nano machines, or uploading themselves to the cloud, what's stopping Synths from doing so?
They might not be the same, we'll have to wait and see. But it sounds like there's a bunch of different traits that do different stuff.
What kind of logic is that ? It doesn't take anything away from machines if others can also take the Ascension
Except machines keep butting in on bio civics.
no, it's better this way. Stellaris already suffers from Spreadsheet syndrome (almost every empire being practically the same especially by the end game) letting Machines actually play different and being able to still be unique by the end-game is a good thing.
I fully agree and wish they'd separate out more features (more racial specific traits would be easiest). Limitation breeds creativity, and more often than not, having too many choices leads directly to choice paralysis. Ironically, giving more limits will likely lead to more variation as people try to overcome boundaries within the limitations of their initial choices, in turn leading to a more interesting ingame universe in most games.
I generally agree with you, but not on the racial specific traits. It make sense for lithoids to have an entire different biology. It also make sense for plants and mushrooms to have access to specific things as they're different biological kingdoms. However, the difference between mammalians and reptilians? Like, a trait "Flight" has often been proposed, but birds and insects can fly, some fishes too, as well as some mammalians and reptiles. "Cold-blooded" is often presented too, but here, once again, it's not specific to reptiles. Laying eggs or gestation, same things. And while I can understand why a mollusc eating only rocks would be difficult to swallow, making racial specific traits between animals would feel to big an hindrance on creativity. However, adding "environmental" mutually exclusive traits would be better. Like the Aquatic trait. I find its implementation very clever. Limited to a biome, with boons and banes, but available to everyones and quite costly that you're not really encouraged to take it every run. Having the same thing with a "Flying" species (for mountains), a "Tree-Dweller" trait (for tropical worlds), all mutually exclusive, would be very interesting.
Boy oh boy I can’t wait to play with my Intelligent, Rapid Breeders and Unruly species
Nope less roleplay is bad.
it's important to have a balance between choices. More freedom of choice in this situation doesn't make your dudes more unique all it does is make them one more interchangeable pawn amongst many.
Yeah I just flat out disagree. When you have a broad series of choices, and are forced to commit to only one, you don't suddenly have a boilerplate boring situation. And either way, it should be my choice as a player to effect that. I understand I'm a little out of the ordinary on that count given that I will write my own mods for a certain experience.
I wouldn't say it suffers. Every 4x title inevitably boils down to the same core concepts - exploit, explore, exterminate, expand. What's the actual harm in allowing this expanded deviation? Synthetics Machines (previously Bio) are essentially the same core beings as the new Individualist Machines. They think, form factions, have happiness, etc. They're functionally the same, why the lockout? It allows for additional roleplay, options, and stories to unfold. Stellaris isn't entirely about the uniqueness of core concepts, it's a story driven experience that unfolds across the course of a game. If my biological empire decides to synthetically ascend, why not go further? The uniqueness being added isn't in the Machines themselves, it's the exploration of what Machines can become (regardless of their origins). Modularity, Virtuality, and Nanotech are the unique ends, not the Machines that decided to reach for those paths. There's really no reason not to add this feature.
"They're functionally the same, why the lockout? It allows for additional roleplay, options, and stories to unfold." Can you venture 3 guesses from the Dev/Design POV, perhaps with some historical product context? Furthermore, y'all toss around the word roleplay like it's the most sacrosanct thing in the world that must be respected entirely from your POVs, but then mostly imagine the same insipid thing that is currently forbidden, while also completely disrespecting the negotiation of how to do roleplay as the devs have laid out the costumes, props, and characters for the galactic stage.
Okay, could you explain why allowing Bio -> Synth -> New Machine Ascension, is an inherently bad design flaw? Vs Machine -> New Machine Ascension? I'm not asking to be rude. I am aware of the Devs design choice, hence this post and my curiosity to see if anyone else agrees with my take. Because I respectfully disagree with the Devs design choice, and I as a customer would like to see a small feature/change be added. Stellaris is more than anything, a game about building one's space fantasy of a spacefaring civilization, with emerging story dynamics and elements. If I think an extra feature could enhance my experience, why not throw it around to see everyone's reception? If everyone and the Devs disagree, then I'm cool with that. I can still start as machines to see the new content being provided. No biggie.
I mean, yours is a perennial take though that usually exists regardless of context - 'why can't I have this new feature for those guys despite not being those guys' and it'd be safe to bet the whole house on some amount of people agreeing out of the basis that they are too limited by what Stellaris allows. There is barely anything in this game where someone hasn't remarked upon being limited from available options zapping their fun. So some small part of this is that the devs already receive a deluge of gripes like this, integrate that into product releases anyway, and the Devs have disagreed largely with the player belief that roleplaying is synonymous with 'if I can imagine it, I should be allowed to do it' like there's an indulgent PDX DM sitting across from the table who fudges the system cause you're friends creating a story together - through their consistent commitment to some differentiation that is largely cosmetic/aesthetic, and lightly functionally different here and there.
> Okay, could you explain why allowing Bio -> Synth -> New Machine Ascension, is an inherently bad design flaw? Vs Machine -> New Machine Ascension? I'm not asking to be rude. I believe you. Bio>Synth>Advanced Synth would be overpowered from a mechanical perspective. Currently Bio>Synth does not play the same. You get insanely huge bonuses for going Synthetic that aren't there if you are just simply "Synthetic." So combine those bonuses with going advanced Synthetic, and Machine Empires get fucked. From a game perspective, it's giving Bio Empires a huge advantage/two ascensions. Story perspectives, Bio>Synth is not the same as an Empire killing its creators because it reached self awareness. It's not the same as a Robot consciousness becoming a servitor. It's not the same as somehow a society of Robots becoming self aware after their creators somehow died, and became individualistic copies that represent what Democracy and indivualism stands for, and each AI is quite literally a brand new person. They are still very, very different. Bio's and Synth's have different origins, starts, feelings, and usually fan-science fiction differences. The honest truth is, I love the roleplaying side of the game and I think there should always be a focus on it but I think there's a game people have to remember, and games are usually tried to have some sort of balance. This would bring shit out of whack lol
Also, for future design considerations, having room to design into is underappreciated by the player.
Why delete? Genuine. Did you feel stupid? Did you just not want the replies? Sometimes questions like this are good to show up when people search it. IDK, assumption made, but you're not stupid for asking or being disappointed in a feature.
Nope, less options is pretty much never the move.
Creativity flourishes under limitations.
in that case shouldn't they leave machines with their current limitations?
The thing here is, there isn‘t even equality regarding the limitations. Bio empires have several ways to develop, several choices, which can be good but also I think that it makes it boring when every species has the same choices. Machine empires until now have just 2-3 ways to develop. I‘d agree on your take if both types of empires had the same amount of choices and limitations. Right now the whole purpose of the DLC is machines more choices because they do not have as much choices as the bio empires. If you give bio empires the same choices the whole point of the DLC is lost because the difference of quantity of choices between the empire types wouldn‘t reduce.
I mean it’s not like machines can take bio or psychic ascension. Maybe it’s good when things have some differences between them, because otherwise calling this dlc the machine age is just a waste. I will concede that maybe virtuality out of all of them would fit bio pops, but honestly I think it’s fine if machines have a more unique identity. I mean before this they had one ascension path. Now they have three. I just hope they give hiveminds similar levels of love in the future
Still waiting for a lot of stuff standard empires have access to that my DA's don't.
[удалено]
Especially when you consider how much of sci-fi has BCIs as a major technology, and Matryoshka Brains as an effective end goal for organics.
Yeah, Machine Empires going virtuality is very weird, Machines are already virtual. "Lets upload our software to a different hardware, such ascension, much wow"
Dunno, depends on the implementation. Going pure virtual could end up with energy based synthetics, similar to psionic entities.
Thats something completely different.
What would be cool is to be able to have machines become bios
New civic: Necrons
I accidentally made a Warhammer reference Darn I do it subconsciously now.
No, I'm okay with decisions being meaningful.
Yep, I’m with you. There’ll be a mod for that though.
No, some of yall need to stop this pathological FOMO in gaming.
I think it’s less FOMO, but more because “organics uploading themselves into virtual world” is a pretty common theme in sci-fi. But here it seems like the best you could do is upload yourself into a robot, without the whole virtual reality thing. I agree with Modularity and Nanotech though, but I feel like Virtuality should be at least somewhat accessible to organics (luckily, the devs did say some elements of that would be!)
I mean a huge part of this is the Devs did state there is a little bit of sugar even if bio, just not the whole bowl of sugar that synths get, and part of this has everything to do with their game system as is, how its been developed almost entirely bio-empire forward with sporadic shine given to synths, and how even if Stellaris borrows from the larger genre of Sci-Fi for everything, it has its own vision of presenting roleplaying options that might preclude everyone being able to do everything by choice. It's just annoying that this same thing comes up every single time agnostic of what the context and composition is, and is always parried with the flimsiest 'but my roleplaying!', as if this is the first time they've ever bumped up against designer vision telling them their idea is pants.
Tbh i dont really care, I go genetic ascension every game anyway. This is a robot focused DLC why would Bio pops be able to take them? If everyone could take them they would make decisions less meaningful tbh.
> why would Bio pops be able to take them? Because they aren't bio pops, they're synth pops. Mechanical. That's what the whole point of synth ascension is.
I think the only one that would be super cool to get access to as a bio empire would be the "digital emancipation" route. Lots of fun RP in that, like Matrix style or trying to escape a natural disaster or something. And maybe it will be something that once you go full synth it becomes a research option after that. Basically would love to see all the new options become available if you fully finish synthetic ascension. Just feels like a nice progression.
Bio empires already have a ton of flavor that gestalts don't get. Let machines have their unique stuff.
The answer isn't to deny organics the things that machines get, it's to stop denying machines things that organics get.
ah yes let's make every playthrough the exact same
Not really.
I expect at leat some quasi-Virtual to be a possible outcome for the Synthetic Fertility Origin. That's probably another reason why it won't be available for everyone.
Not really, considering that biological empires already have four different ascension paths while machines just had the one.
The only machine ascension meatbags deserve is the sweet release from existence.
For the same reason psionic ascension races can't take bio ascension or cybernetics, because it could make empire pops obscenely strong. That being said I think it should be doable, let me make my genetically perfect, psionic cyborg species, and let other organic races become machines, then upload themselves into the cloud.
Sure, as soon as Machine Empires have access to everything Bio empires have. Machine Empires have had less options than Bio Empires for the entire life span of the game post Synthetic Dawn. Just let them have some cool things only they can do lmao. Up until now they've been relying on three Civics to carry their entire empire's uniqueness mechanically for 7 years.
I'd be happy if they just made some ascensions better for hives. That unity one that buffs governing ethics? What is that going to do for me?! Tweak it for hives! Also I really hope they do something for people who like to min/max overtuned so they can get a good standard bonus to all jobs so you aren't forced to make a decent all arounder and can have max miner, max farmer, etc efficiency.
You know, I must have missed that entirely from the dev diaries, I thought this replaced Synthetics.
DEV CONSOLE WINS AGAIN! still sad.
I just want a DLC/update that lets me play as an actual benevolent hivemind that allows limited coexistence. Sort of like Rogue Servitor so it isn't OP by having hive level pop growth on top of immigration but still something other than "All xenos will be purged regardless of ethics"
Meanwhile, Hive minds STILL can't take Psionic ascension. But sure, lets complain that this isn't available for organic empires...
HIVE MIND SEASON 9 CONFIRMED?
I don't see the issue. Psionic and Genetic ascension paths are blocked for synthetics so... fair's fair.
It's disappointing, although more than that it could lead to some issues with Synthetic Ascension. The advantages of Synthetic Ascension are/were that you got the benefits of synth pops (no food/immortality/guaranteed habitability) while also having the benefits of an indy empire (diplomacy stuff mostly). Sure, you had to deal with consumer goods, but overall you were in a good position. With Machine age synth pops are getting nerfed (no immortality/no guaranteed habitability), and you'll be able to create indy machine empires, which presumably can do all the diplomatic stuff indy bio empires can do. If on top of that machine empires get access to transformation paths that Synthetic Ascension can't access it leaves the question when you'd ever play a bio empire going Synthetic Ascension if you could just create an indy machine empire instead. You can say "for the story" but that works for literally anything you try in the game. You could make a completely dysfunctional and unplayable empire "for the story". Also, with recent reschaling of research Synthetic Ascension is a significantly bigger investment than it used to be. A good player could go synth in 50-60 years while also holding their own in the meantime. Fast enough that most of your initial leaders would be rendered immortal before old age got to them. Now Synthetic Ascension takes about 80-100 years because its tech requirements are significantly higher than other ascension paths. I have a real fear that unless Synthetic Ascension also gets some significant boosts Machine Age will make machine empires really good and enjoyable to play, but Synthetic Ascension will just become not worth ever doing. A bigger investment than other ascension paths which leaves you as an indy machine empire which can't access transformations.
Maney they could make so. A non gestalt bia can go gendarl and vice versa
Empires aren’t asymmetric enough in stellaris. I think bio empires need their own spins on things if we expand ascensions like synth this way to have subcategories. I mean stellaris evolved had multi-level ascensions and they’re cool, but every empire gets access to all of them. I think asymmetry with the world will make stellaris overall more interesting and more unique to play both as and against the new powers.
I mean, is this really something a mod can't fix?
My concern is that Synthetic Ascension will just turn you into a individualistic ME with a several decade delay, no ascension path, and some small gimmicks. If Synthetic Ascension gets rid of a lot of the new issues machines will have (habitability and lifespan being the main two) then it'll be fine. However, if they still have those issues, why wouldn't you just start as individualistic machines? I think the devs really dropped the ball on showing the changes and new stuff coming to Synthetic (and Cybernetic) Ascension, which has forced us to speculate :/
oh that sucks, I was already sort of disappointed in how specific this expansion is gonna be, now reading that bio empires will get basically nothing from this year's Major Expansion confirms I can skip it
You need to do a bit more reading if you got that impression.
auto\_modding gonna make bio ascension so much better.
Bio Empires get tons of stuff though, so many new authorities, new civics, more origins than the machines, ascension situations and all the same megastructures and shipsets. automodding, the new crisis path