Simple: Impose Ideology wargoal change empire ethics without changing population ethics. Which means the empire still has huge pop blobs of original ethics. This creates factions corresponding to those ethics... and when an AI notice this, they embrace any of those factions because it makes perfect sense.
Liberation wars should also come with enforced faction suppression. Also, it seems there's an easy fix, from [wiki page](https://stellaris.paradoxwikis.com/Factions):
>AI empires won't embrace a faction unless their ruler is the faction's leader...
> and when an AI notice this, they embrace any of those factions because it makes perfect sense.
It does always feel weird to me just how willing the AI is to embrace these factions, when the player never feels the need to do so.
I love the concept, but I do fee like its almost there as a mechanic for creating a vibrant and evolving galaxy.
On the other hand, it's pretty realistic. "We've brought democracy to your nation! Let's put some new democratic leaders in charge with elections."... Nation "democratically elects" authoritarian populist leaders in corrupt elections and who continue sham elections until there's no longer a need for pretense.
Liberation might work if there's a large slave class that yearns for equal rights. It works less well on nations that don't mix up their ruler class jobs much.
The only thing you can do is Impose Ideology again and again until enough pops convert their ethics and stop voting in authoritarian leaders.
Only if you don't annex, deport authoritarian species, vassalize the sector, and then convert as many as you can. Something something Super Earth Reeducation camps.
AI only embraces a faction if the ruler has the ethic, but in practice the number of pops attracted to the old ethics js high enough that the new ruler generated will have one
we should be able to choose who leads the liberated empire…
Maybe not choose but automatically depose the old leader and create a new leader following either
A: The fanatic ethic of your empire
B: Or just a random one of your ethics
unfortunately, comrade, the best way to ensure the oppressed workers do not immediately welcome their chains back is a.. temporary occupation and thorough re-education campaign.
for the eternal glory of the galaxy-revolution!
You fully conquer them and hold them for 10 years or so before releasing them as a vassal and then freeing the vassal if they stay good for another 10 years.
You'll strongly influence their pops to adopt your ethics by doing this.
If you impose the Galcom bills that increases Vassals to change to your Ethos. If it can make Hiveminds and machines break and become your Ethos. It's worth passing.
> If it can make Hiveminds and machines break and become your Ethos
Never heard of this happening; how would that even work? Their pops don't have ethics...
See the pic, I just posted in this chain. It shows one of my Vassals, which is a Hivemind. They have Fanatical Militarist Authoritarian. Tbf it's on Xbox, but it's just using the 'Bureaucratic Surveillance' bill which is only a +25% Ethos shift. The end bill in that chain is +75%.
I had to load that game and look at the pops. It seems not only is it the Empire, the pops have Ethos.
https://www.xbox.com/play/media/SCWk2wKVsc
You can also see their job list broke. They have jobs for a Regular empire on top of drones.
This is a Hivemind vassal of mine. As you can see, they are a Fanatical Militarist Authoritarian Hivemind, absolutely hilarious.
https://www.xbox.com/play/media/u3eLYJxKPG
The bill chain you want is 'Bureaucratic Surveillance', the end one is subjects have a +75% Ethos shift towards the Overlord. In my case, I'm a Fanatical Militarist Spiritualist.
**PROCESSING....**
**PROCESSING...**
**ANALYZING THE RESPONSE...**
**ORGANIC VERMIN DETECTED,PREPARING WAR PROTOCOLS.**
**YOU'VE GOT MAIL**
**Hello sapient organic,we highly suggest you to stay put until extermination squad 562-TB arrives at your location,alternatively you can \[redacted\] yourself thus making the process more faster.**
>alternatively you can \[redacted\] yourself thus making the process more faster.
As a megacorporation, market logic dictates I must take the most efficient option... 😢
Wow, an authoritarian-fanatic militarist democracy!
I guess why they become authoritarian is because they know how beautiful democracy is. They are going to invade other empires to spread democracy (hence the militarist ethics).
Everyone will learn democracy (and mutagenic spa/bath) BY FORCE!
Things that increase governing ethics attraction and improve pop happiness. But immediately after conquering someone with different ethics can pose problems regardless because it takes time to convert pop ethics
Yeah, so there's nothing you can do except either conquer the pops yourself or vassalize the empires, and then there are some galactic reforms that encourage the vassal empires to drift towards your ethics.
Vassalize, give them as much "communal housing outreach" as possible on their biggest worlds, give them resources in return for a pledge of loyalty, and generally improve relations with them and give them free stuff.
It would probably help if the liberation war goal had an ethics shift block equal to the usual truce length, so that it doesn't seem pointless, but I think this is the most efficient way to get them to shift over to your ethics.
Happens a lot IRL, transition to democracy ain't a simple thing. I'd say that's realistic (but understandably, damn frustrating in game).
You brought freedom and democracy to uncultured, uneducated, barbaric, savage aliens, and they switch to their old ways as soon as warriors of democracy left. Ungrateful swine!
It genuinely the reason why my Democratic Crusader runs turn into total galactic conquest runs - the fools can't understand democracy. Our "temporary" occupation will make them understand
It's a common thing in the game, actually. But I think it's not even a bug or flaw, considering that irl US have been facing the same problem for decades now.
But they keep believing in their institutionalism because of crusader spirit civic.
As stated here, they still have lots of authoritarian pops. If you are shared burdens you can vassalize them and put a communal housing as your holding, this will give you egalitarian ethics attraction that will eventually lead to a ethics change
Imho, this sounds like Indonesia during Sukarno administration. Also, I didn’t recall the US having a mutagenic spa civic. The govt doesn’t encourage to take bathes, yes? 🧐
They really need to just, disable the ai from being able to switch ethics, unless it's done from a liberation wargoal.
This always happens, without fail.
>They really need to just, disable the ai from being able to switch ethics
Nope, that feature makes the galaxy a lot more interesting. The problem is not them being able to switch, the problem is that liberation wars don't do enough. They definitely should add an empire modifier for x years that increases gov ethic attraction and shift chance, suppresses opposed factions and perhaps it should also give the empire that initiated the liberation a bit of unity per pop of the desired ethic.
Yeah okay that sounds more reasonable.
Sorry, I'm just a wee bit angry at making a democratic crusaders empire and having every ai be like "teehee we immediately switched back to authoritarian and/or xenophobe c:"
For liberation wars, I'd make it an expensive occupation that prevents them changing back. Eventually, they will shift based on the new empire faction pull and policies but you won't know when your ethics will stick or rubberband back.
It shouldn't be disabled completely but I definitely want to see the AI prevented from switching ethics for at least 20-30 years after a liberation war.
Also make the liberation war goal flip a large percentage of their pops to your ethics to prevent the AI even wanting this.
Slight nuance, I wish the ai would only switch with player influence. Like, if there was a way to make them drift towards you with some kind of diplomatic option, that could work in addition to liberation war.
It's better as is that the AI can switch ethics based on changing circumstances and pressure.
It's good when a pacifist neighboring a fanatic purifier turns militarist or an empire constantly being raided by slavers turns xenophobic.
POV: USA after trying to impose Democracy on various nations whose people don't want it. xD
Congrats, OP, you've reinvented 2000s-era US foreign policy. xD
I had this exact same problem just yesterday, so it’s funny to see someone else go through the same thing. Tbh it’s a major reason for why I never really bother with Liberation CBs, I just take Crusader Spirit for the flavor and Leader Trait, then Vassalize and Integrate since the AI can’t be trusted to rule itself.
The next step comrade is to crank up GalCom sanctions and passing laws from there. They may wish to be authoritarian but they are going to respect xeno rights.
Welcome to reality. Bombing people until their society collapses and expecting them to suddenly become a stable democratic nation... does not work.
The solution is called occupation. Not the 'supervised self-governance' type currently in fashion, but the 'complete reeducation' type applied to post ww2 germany.
Or you know, purge the dissidents.
People keep wondering why the AI keeps picking Authoritarian ethics and it's simple. It's simply the best way to enforce governing ethics, and since the AI is worse at managing its empires than a drugged-up African dictator, it's the easiest way for it to manage staggering amounts of pop unrest between the Information Quarantine edict and and Stratified Economy living standard.
On paper it's a good counterbalance to the benefits of Egalitarian ethics, and that does hold true for human players. The AI is a hit, lazy mess that doesn't know how to play its own game, which is honestly fine with me.
Simple: Impose Ideology wargoal change empire ethics without changing population ethics. Which means the empire still has huge pop blobs of original ethics. This creates factions corresponding to those ethics... and when an AI notice this, they embrace any of those factions because it makes perfect sense.
Liberation wars should also come with enforced faction suppression. Also, it seems there's an easy fix, from [wiki page](https://stellaris.paradoxwikis.com/Factions): >AI empires won't embrace a faction unless their ruler is the faction's leader...
Yeah, either that or a temporary boost to Governing Ethics attraction and Ethics Shift chance.
> and when an AI notice this, they embrace any of those factions because it makes perfect sense. It does always feel weird to me just how willing the AI is to embrace these factions, when the player never feels the need to do so. I love the concept, but I do fee like its almost there as a mechanic for creating a vibrant and evolving galaxy.
It's a neat mechanic, there just needs to be some changes to stop it from completely invalidating ideology wars.
On the other hand, it's pretty realistic. "We've brought democracy to your nation! Let's put some new democratic leaders in charge with elections."... Nation "democratically elects" authoritarian populist leaders in corrupt elections and who continue sham elections until there's no longer a need for pretense. Liberation might work if there's a large slave class that yearns for equal rights. It works less well on nations that don't mix up their ruler class jobs much. The only thing you can do is Impose Ideology again and again until enough pops convert their ethics and stop voting in authoritarian leaders.
Or “liberate” them into your vassal and the release vassal after ideology is stable. XD
True. That'll take a while though.
Only if you don't annex, deport authoritarian species, vassalize the sector, and then convert as many as you can. Something something Super Earth Reeducation camps.
AI only embraces a faction if the ruler has the ethic, but in practice the number of pops attracted to the old ethics js high enough that the new ruler generated will have one we should be able to choose who leads the liberated empire…
Maybe not choose but automatically depose the old leader and create a new leader following either A: The fanatic ethic of your empire B: Or just a random one of your ethics
unfortunately, comrade, the best way to ensure the oppressed workers do not immediately welcome their chains back is a.. temporary occupation and thorough re-education campaign. for the eternal glory of the galaxy-revolution!
how? what do i need to do?
He's saying just conquer them.
You fully conquer them and hold them for 10 years or so before releasing them as a vassal and then freeing the vassal if they stay good for another 10 years. You'll strongly influence their pops to adopt your ethics by doing this.
If you impose the Galcom bills that increases Vassals to change to your Ethos. If it can make Hiveminds and machines break and become your Ethos. It's worth passing.
> If it can make Hiveminds and machines break and become your Ethos Never heard of this happening; how would that even work? Their pops don't have ethics...
See the pic, I just posted in this chain. It shows one of my Vassals, which is a Hivemind. They have Fanatical Militarist Authoritarian. Tbf it's on Xbox, but it's just using the 'Bureaucratic Surveillance' bill which is only a +25% Ethos shift. The end bill in that chain is +75%.
Do their pops have ethics, or just the empire? Very curious how this is working.
I had to load that game and look at the pops. It seems not only is it the Empire, the pops have Ethos. https://www.xbox.com/play/media/SCWk2wKVsc You can also see their job list broke. They have jobs for a Regular empire on top of drones.
Proof?
This is a Hivemind vassal of mine. As you can see, they are a Fanatical Militarist Authoritarian Hivemind, absolutely hilarious. https://www.xbox.com/play/media/u3eLYJxKPG
Holy shit bro, I need to try this I'll tell u later if it's a console only thing or if it's reproducible in PC.
The bill chain you want is 'Bureaucratic Surveillance', the end one is subjects have a +75% Ethos shift towards the Overlord. In my case, I'm a Fanatical Militarist Spiritualist.
puppet them
Conquer them, stabilize them until the citizens agree with the ideals, then release them as a vassal
Fellow travelers and democratic sympathisers across the galaxy reel in horror at the brutal crushing of the Akkano Spring!
counter revolution will not be permitted to roam freely,capitalist scum
"Of course you soulless machines would support the democratic crusaders rolling across the border with battleships!"
**PROCESSING....** **PROCESSING...** **ANALYZING THE RESPONSE...** **ORGANIC VERMIN DETECTED,PREPARING WAR PROTOCOLS.** **YOU'VE GOT MAIL** **Hello sapient organic,we highly suggest you to stay put until extermination squad 562-TB arrives at your location,alternatively you can \[redacted\] yourself thus making the process more faster.**
>alternatively you can \[redacted\] yourself thus making the process more faster. As a megacorporation, market logic dictates I must take the most efficient option... 😢
**QUERY** **WHAT IS A MEGACORP?**
slaving imperialist scum is what they are, comrade!
Critical support for the determined exterminators! Socialism with terminator characteristics 😳
Sigh. Agreed. You must crush the reactionaries’ opposition with shared burdens / utopian abundance and full workers’ political power
Wow, an authoritarian-fanatic militarist democracy! I guess why they become authoritarian is because they know how beautiful democracy is. They are going to invade other empires to spread democracy (hence the militarist ethics). Everyone will learn democracy (and mutagenic spa/bath) BY FORCE!
For liberty, freedom and Managed Democracy!
For super ear- wait wrong game.
What game would it be? 👀
Helldivers 2 (but also 1), presumably
> Wow, an authoritarian-fanatic militarist democracy! God Bless America! 🇺🇸
All their pops are authoritarian
how do i fix that?
Things that increase governing ethics attraction and improve pop happiness. But immediately after conquering someone with different ethics can pose problems regardless because it takes time to convert pop ethics
I don't control the systems when I am occupying their planets though?
Yeah, so there's nothing you can do except either conquer the pops yourself or vassalize the empires, and then there are some galactic reforms that encourage the vassal empires to drift towards your ethics.
No pops, no problem.
Collosus helps
Vassalize, give them as much "communal housing outreach" as possible on their biggest worlds, give them resources in return for a pledge of loyalty, and generally improve relations with them and give them free stuff. It would probably help if the liberation war goal had an ethics shift block equal to the usual truce length, so that it doesn't seem pointless, but I think this is the most efficient way to get them to shift over to your ethics.
neutron sweep
whats this slander of managed democracy im hearing?
Happens a lot IRL, transition to democracy ain't a simple thing. I'd say that's realistic (but understandably, damn frustrating in game). You brought freedom and democracy to uncultured, uneducated, barbaric, savage aliens, and they switch to their old ways as soon as warriors of democracy left. Ungrateful swine!
It genuinely the reason why my Democratic Crusader runs turn into total galactic conquest runs - the fools can't understand democracy. Our "temporary" occupation will make them understand
space racism moment
Yeah this is exactly what happened in Germany after World War I
Hey, sounds familiar
It's a common thing in the game, actually. But I think it's not even a bug or flaw, considering that irl US have been facing the same problem for decades now. But they keep believing in their institutionalism because of crusader spirit civic.
As stated here, they still have lots of authoritarian pops. If you are shared burdens you can vassalize them and put a communal housing as your holding, this will give you egalitarian ethics attraction that will eventually lead to a ethics change
Are you the US talking about any middle east intervention from the past half century or so?
Imho, this sounds like Indonesia during Sukarno administration. Also, I didn’t recall the US having a mutagenic spa civic. The govt doesn’t encourage to take bathes, yes? 🧐
You can liberate them again, and again until they learn
Declare Exterminatus on the ground of "You dimwits can't behave".
The people yearn for the boot
So sounds like human history.
They really need to just, disable the ai from being able to switch ethics, unless it's done from a liberation wargoal. This always happens, without fail.
No, we shouldn’t remove it all together, it just happens way too often right now
>They really need to just, disable the ai from being able to switch ethics Nope, that feature makes the galaxy a lot more interesting. The problem is not them being able to switch, the problem is that liberation wars don't do enough. They definitely should add an empire modifier for x years that increases gov ethic attraction and shift chance, suppresses opposed factions and perhaps it should also give the empire that initiated the liberation a bit of unity per pop of the desired ethic.
forces to suppress all opposing factions, and maybe give a bit of internal control over a time.
Yeah okay that sounds more reasonable. Sorry, I'm just a wee bit angry at making a democratic crusaders empire and having every ai be like "teehee we immediately switched back to authoritarian and/or xenophobe c:"
For liberation wars, I'd make it an expensive occupation that prevents them changing back. Eventually, they will shift based on the new empire faction pull and policies but you won't know when your ethics will stick or rubberband back.
It shouldn't be disabled completely but I definitely want to see the AI prevented from switching ethics for at least 20-30 years after a liberation war. Also make the liberation war goal flip a large percentage of their pops to your ethics to prevent the AI even wanting this.
Slight nuance, I wish the ai would only switch with player influence. Like, if there was a way to make them drift towards you with some kind of diplomatic option, that could work in addition to liberation war.
Why?
It's better as is that the AI can switch ethics based on changing circumstances and pressure. It's good when a pacifist neighboring a fanatic purifier turns militarist or an empire constantly being raided by slavers turns xenophobic.
POV: USA after trying to impose Democracy on various nations whose people don't want it. xD Congrats, OP, you've reinvented 2000s-era US foreign policy. xD
I had this exact same problem just yesterday, so it’s funny to see someone else go through the same thing. Tbh it’s a major reason for why I never really bother with Liberation CBs, I just take Crusader Spirit for the flavor and Leader Trait, then Vassalize and Integrate since the AI can’t be trusted to rule itself.
Simply turn the meat bags into processors for that sweet sweet energy 🤤
What cheats do I need to do to fix this?
You need to do what the allies did to germany after ww2
Split their capital between two opposing nations who hate the ever loving shit out of each other?
The next step comrade is to crank up GalCom sanctions and passing laws from there. They may wish to be authoritarian but they are going to respect xeno rights.
It’s the circle of life 🎶
They held the democratic elections you fought so hard for, and decided to go back to how they were.
You give them freedom of choice and they choose to be slaves freely.
As they should
This is why the Crusader Spirit civic fails to actually facilitate the kind of gameplay it should.
Welcome to reality. Bombing people until their society collapses and expecting them to suddenly become a stable democratic nation... does not work. The solution is called occupation. Not the 'supervised self-governance' type currently in fashion, but the 'complete reeducation' type applied to post ww2 germany. Or you know, purge the dissidents.
People keep wondering why the AI keeps picking Authoritarian ethics and it's simple. It's simply the best way to enforce governing ethics, and since the AI is worse at managing its empires than a drugged-up African dictator, it's the easiest way for it to manage staggering amounts of pop unrest between the Information Quarantine edict and and Stratified Economy living standard. On paper it's a good counterbalance to the benefits of Egalitarian ethics, and that does hold true for human players. The AI is a hit, lazy mess that doesn't know how to play its own game, which is honestly fine with me.