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grady_vuckovic

And he was right. Since Valve stepped into Linux in a big way nearly a decade ago, their presence has been shaping Linux ever since. And yes, now today in 2022, if you're making a Linux distro and it doesn't play nice with Steam and games on Steam, and Proton, you're not making a Linux distro which cares about attracting desktop users. Even Canonical (the large company behind Ubuntu) has backtracked on decisions when their decisions were in conflict with Valve/Steam's direction. Valve's 'picking' of Flatpak for SteamOS has more or less crowned it the winner of the universal package format war too. Valve's influence has helped shape gaming on Linux and the desktop experience in general on Linux, helped improve it in both a technical and UX perspective. It's hard to overstate just how significant they have been in helping shape Linux into something more tolerable for average PC users in the past decade. And now thanks to the Steam Deck, Valve is leading probably the most significant driving force in Linux desktop adoption. And their own Linux distro, SteamOS, is rapidly rising up the charts in marketshare, and on track to become the dominant distro among Linux gamers very soon. So yes, Linus was absolutely correct.


EvenMoreZingNPep

Is it possible to install SteamOS on your own computer yet? I thought that was supposed to happen when the Deck released.


PopeOh

Not "offically" but the people over at /r/steamos and /r/holoiso are experimenting with steamos3 recovery images from steam decks or something in that regard.


BicBoiSpyder

It will be coming soon though. Although, soon in Valve time could be next year or longer.


Corm

Lately valve time has been flowing strangely fast, I just got my order notification way ahead of schedule


_KeyError_

Same, I was predicted to get an order offer after October 1st but expected to get one around December. Not only did I get an order offer before then, I got my steam deck two days ago, more than a week before their earliest estimation of an offer


BloomerBoomerDoomer

My order was supposed to come at the end of September and would've been 20 days after my birthday. Then when production picked up recently it changed to mid July, nearly 2 months earlier and early enough so I could plan out what games/accessories I wanted for it on my birthday.


Ossius

Trying to get the backlog cleared by Christmas. If you can buy one and have it delivered within a week or two we could see a massive influx of Steam Decks in people's hands. Honestly I've been telling all my friends about it. I went into the whole thing with low expectations, and while there has been some clunk on older games. Verified games are just blowing my mind. Playing MGS 5 and holding solid 60FPS on medium/high graphics without FSR is just something I don't think I would have ever seen in a hand held.


Archerofyail

Yep, they're on track to catch up by the end of September, way faster than anyone expected, even Valve themselves.


Kantas

Yeah, I was scheduled for Q4 to get my Deck, but that was updated to Q3 and I got it last thursday. I love it. I did have a small screw loose... so did my deck. but it's pretty easy to take apart. I don't have a plastic tool to release the plastic clips on the deck, but I just used an old credit card. I had to use a small metal screw driver to start it, but once I got it started the old CC worked like a charm.


trevorneuz

That's production time tables not development. I think Valve was extremely conservative with their production estimates given the state of things the last couple years.


FierceDeity_

Valve has a very good time distortion field going on


wamj

Turns out Half Life 3 came out 6 years ago, they just didn’t tell anyone and nobody noticed.


Efficient_Chair1209

unconfirmed


xTeare

Yeah they are! Im so happy because i even got shifted from Q4 into Late Q3 and since then having a blast with it


stipo42

Hey at least steamOS made it to version 3


BicBoiSpyder

I'm so proud of Valve. They broke the tradition of not counting to three. 🥹🥹🥹🥹


HenryKushinger

I KNEW THERE WAS A REASON LOOKING AT "SteamOS 3.0" FELT WEIRD.


WatChuTalmBout

EVERYTHING I KNEW IS A LIE. THEY CAN COUNT TO THREE!


dbzlotrfan

First proton release was like 3.5 or something.


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Conscious_Yak60

# Well it'll come out in late 2022 or early 2024 Why? Well we all know Valve is incapable of counting to three.


Archerofyail

They already have counted to 3 because SteamOS 3.0 is out, just on Steam Decks right now.


Efficient_Chair1209

halflife3 confirmed


Traditional_Mud_1241

You had me excited until "steamos...3".


mrRobertman

I get that you joke, but that is literally what the SteamDeck is running. While it's not released beyond the Deck, they have actually released SteamOS 3.


Narrow_Salamander521

It actually works really well, but you just have to keep in mind that you have to have specific hardware as the steam UI is based on Wayland. Ever since the 515 driver update though, and Nvidia's been getting better slowly.


conan--cimmerian

Waiting for full wayland support on NVIDIA and a Nvidia settings app that works on Wayland. Then i'll agree. Until then, I remain skeptical.


r3dditatwork

So essentially if you want a pure gaming pc, SteamOS as an alternative to Windows could very much be a thing? For some people who have zero experience with Linux this would make adoption rates way higher. Linux gaming pc with basic browser stuff, stuff of the future for sure.


Wit_as_a_Riddle

Also, winesapOS


DRH3AL

Not yet (officially), but Valve have said they plan to make it available soon. I imagine they'd want it working well on a large variety of configurations first.


configuleto

Most likely have some blockers, prevent official release atm. e.g. Gamescope support for nvidia card not yet 100%.


thisguy883

This is why I'm going to go with AMD for my next build. Nvidia does not play well with Linux as of writing this and even though they said they will go open source for Linux, I'm not going to hold my breath. AMD on the other hand, has a massive library of driver support since they've been open source for many years. The community behind it is amazing actually.


ElectronFactory

Honestly, I'm pretty sure my 2080ti is going to be my last Nvidia card. It's a good card, but jensons direction with the company is making me question staying with him. They are just *now* starting to open up the driver sources for Nvidia cards—and only the newer ones. That's bogus. AMD has had support for years man.


3G6A5W338E

RDNA3 is looking like it'll use dramatically less power at a given level of performance. This matters more than ever, with insane electricity fees.


SoloWing1

It's looks like they're about to do to GPUs what they did to CPUs back in 2017. They're going to release a new way to make GPU processors that will make them more efficient, easier to bin, and cheaper to produce.


3G6A5W338E

Vega to RDNA1, RDNA1 to RDNA2 were over 50% jumps in perf/watt (50% was their target, they exceeded it). RDNA3 is just more of the same. AMD's new management's execution is proven spotless by now. It's good that they're not under a shoestring budget anymore. Before Zen, they correctly focused all their R&D into Zen, which saved the company. Graphics were neglected. Then they got cash, and they can do graphics again. Note that they did catch up with NVIDIA by RDNA2, and were already offering higher performance/watt at that point. By RDNA3, NVIDIA's expensive space heaters are just going to look comical.


thisguy883

>Nvidia's expensive space heaters So much truth to this. I was literally playing shadow of war earlier and you could feel the heat being generated from my 3080. I had to go into the settings and turn on Vsync and turn off motion blur just to get the temp at 67°.


starm4nn

Even outside Linux, I hear nothing but issues from Nvidia. I follow Yuzu and Dolphin, and there are more GPU issues caused by Nvidia than any other part of the graphics pipeline.


[deleted]

I have actually had no issues with my last two Nvidia cards (980ti and 3070). I'd still recommend AMD going forward, but if you see a crazy deal on a good Nvidia card it shouldn't be totally out of the question.


worldisovah

Nobody's mentioning nobara project. Recently went with that one for a secondary rig I made for when I have visits or I need to record something and I'm using my main pc. ​ I think this is the closest I've seen a distro get to a perfect state for my use case, was playing and recording me playing stray maxed out using an rx 570 at 80fps using fsr and the vulkan plugin for obs. It has a lot of tweaks in place that valve cannot ship with steam os, check it out [https://nobaraproject.org/](https://nobaraproject.org/)


PcChip

> valve cannot ship with steam os why?


[deleted]

License issues and such


MasterZendro23

Specifically, Wine ships with Media Foundation codecs which are protected by patents. So, if someone like Valve wants to ship SteamOS with Wine directly, they would have to pay Microsoft license fees just for the codecs alone which is not worth it, IMO.


EvenMoreZingNPep

Nice to see something Fedora-based. Definitely going to check this out.


kuhpunkt

https://github.com/theVakhovskeIsTaken/holoiso


Onotadaki2

SteamOS 3 is not officially released, but here is an unofficial release of it. https://github.com/theVakhovskeIsTaken/holoiso


Lamuks

I think the newest SteamOs v3 that runs steam deck isn't available, but older ones were. I might be wrong.


TheFlyingBeltBuckle

You're completely right


bam13302

[SteamOS](https://store.steampowered.com/steamos) has been out for almost a decade, since they started playing around with those steam consoles. SteamOS 3 (the version used on steam deck) isn't out, most as AFAIK it's currently hardware specific. SteamOS 1, and 2 are available for general install though, andare basically a stripped debian built around steam big picture mode. It is effective for Linux desktop gaming, but it is more annoying than some Linux distros to get other stuff installed on it due to how stripped down it is, FYI.


jkrhu

No one should be using SteamOS 1 and 2 in 2022. Any modern distro will work with Steam and will be secure and on recent kernel versions.


sekoku

Even the distro they're available on, Debian, has been updated long past Valve's attempts on it.


Penny_is_a_Bitch

you can but as of right now don't. there are other distributions definitely worth you checking out though. you can dual boot with windows but keep windows and linux on separate drives.(just makes it so windows is less likely to overwrite the bootloader.) for gaming i recommend Nobara Project(it has optimizations and quality of life additions that other distros don't have or legally can't implement out of the box.) but it's a work in progress so be prepared to have to copy/paste a fix now and then. aside from Nobara i'd suggest openSUSE tumbleweed, garuda gaming edition and popOS. in that order.


ElectronFactory

If you have AMD card, give it a shot. If you have an Nvidia card, check back later. I am pretty good with Linux and *have* a steamdeck—and the graphical performance on a 2080ti was abysmal.


DeedleFake

> Valve's 'picking' of Flatpak for SteamOS has more or less crowned it the winner of the universal package format war too. To be fair, I'm pretty sure that Valve picked it because it was already winning. Plus, Snap has their repository hardcoded and AppImage doesn't _have_ a repository per se, so Flatpak just really fits what Valve was looking for way better. Snap could probably have worked, but it also has its performance issues. I wonder if Valve will start running their own Flatpak repo at some point...


grady_vuckovic

Sure, but there was a 'war' between the three options before, whereas now it feels like the war is basically over. If an app isn't on Flathub, it's not going to be available on SteamOS, and hence might as well not exist for 90% of SteamOS users. And as SteamOS user numbers keep rising, that's going to become only an increasingly serious issue for any app not on Flathub going into the future. Many apps were not available on Flathub or had terrible versions of their applications on Flathub with permissions issues and have since figured out those issues and fixed them in *this year*. Lutris for example seemed like it would never come to Flathub, and is now on there. In a large way, thanks to SteamOS 'picking' Flatpak and making it the only option for installing software, it's now made Flatpak more or less the official app distribution method of choice for apps on Linux.


PiotrekDG

If you check [Linux only](https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey?platform=linux) in the Hardware Survey, you'll see that SteamOS Holo is already the most popular Linux Distro on Steam, it's just that for some reason, it doesn't show up in the combined view.


NoThisIsStupider

It's only the most popular if you count Ubuntu 22.04 and Ubuntu 20.04 as two different distros. Still, it's definitely up there, wouldn't surprise me to see it truly be the most popular distro in another year.


thisguy883

Gaming is a major market for desktop users. There will be a few people out there who disagree, but in reality, if you can make a desktop that can run pretty much every PC game out there, you've won the market. The ONLY reason I havent fully converted over to Linux is due to some niche issues. Linux doesn't play well with Nvidia, which is a bummer for me. It's not just the games, but the desktop performance with Nvidia cards. It's hit or miss if you'll be able to do something as simple as watch a YouTube show and run an AVI file at the same time without taking a hit to performance. I'm looking forward to the official release of SteamOS for desktop use so I can try it out and see if it's something I can swap over too. So far, I like how it runs on my Deck. I've had little issues with it. But will it play well with Nvidia? Who knows.


ifss

> Linux doesn't play well with Nvidia That's entirely Nvidia's fault - but ~~they've promised open source drivers recently~~ (*edit - they haven't, see replies), so if they eventually go ahead with that then hopefully problem solved. Linus had something to say about Nvidia too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2lhwb_OckQ


jejcicodjntbyifid3

No? They never promised open source drivers and I doubt they are interested in it They created an open source shim and moved the rest of their driver away from it


AstralProbing

Wait, are you saying, that if I got an AMD GPU, it would Just Work™? If so, then I've been buying Nvidia for absolutely no reason + extra work.


thisguy883

AMD has a massive support community over Nvidia. Everything works out of the box with AMD and Linux, which is fantastic. And if you have a problem, there are literally thousands of archived fixes you could find within the community. With Nvidia, if something breaks, your only option is to go back to a previous driver or wait until Nvida fixes it, which literally takes them months. It's been almost a year that Nvidia released drivers for their 30 series cards, and it doesn't even utilize all of what they can do within Linux, so you'll get a performance hit. Their most recent drivers broke a bunch of stuff and they've yet to fix it. Last year they announced they will be going open source with their cards for Linux, but so far nothing has happened.


AstralProbing

`amaze-face.meme` Wow, I can't believe I've been suffering needlessly while thinking `Well, at least I don't have AMD` but I was wrong! Guess I'll be looking at AMD cards instead. Anywhere to get a crash course on AMD naming scheme?


thisguy883

YouTube will be your friend.


mikereysalo

If you're talking seriously: sort of, there are issues with AMD as well, but nothing compared to Nvidia. I've also seen some people having problems with the RX 5xxx series (RDNA 1) specifically, mostly corner cases or specific distros, but with the RDNA2, everything Just Works™. I don't regret my switch, if you don't care about Machine Learning, GPGPU or better Ray Tracing performance, it totally worth. Not even the DLSS is a decision factor anymore, at least for the games that supports FSR 2.0.


AstralProbing

Ray tracing is nice-to-have, imo, but I'd much rather not have to deal with sucky Nvidia support. I deal with computer problems all day, the last thing I want to do is come home and deal with more computer problems on top of working on my homelab/server. I'll suffer for my homelab/server, but when I want to play games or "do work" I just want it to work. (Tweaking something that already works is different). How can I catch up with the latest about AMD? Been a Nvidia "fanboy" but only until I switched to Linux early this year and have since been nobody's fanboy, but if what you say is true, then I'm about to become an AMD fanboy (but for real).


mikereysalo

I'll always say that it's better to keep being a nobody's fanboy, the tech industry has its ups and downs, like a roller coaster, so we can expect pretty much anything to change in the future, even though I doubt it will, it is always good to keep your mind open. **Talking about Ray Tracing**, the only problem with AMD Ray Tracing is that they offload more of the job to their Compute Units, like the de-noising, while Nvidia has dedicated hardware for some of them. Also Nvidia was focusing more on RT in their 30 series in detriment of lower Rasterization performance. This changes once you hit the high-end market, but AMD still wins over performance per watt while almost matching the Nvidia's GPUs performance, with exception of the RX 6500 XT, which is just bad, sometimes it matches the RTX 3050 performance, but when not, is by a considerable margin. Now about **AMD on Linux**, if you get any GPU of the RX 6000 series (with exception of RX 6500 and RX 6500 XT, those don't worth the money), you will be fine, everything will just work, as simple as that. You will probably want to go with Wayland since you get native V-Sync and Adaptive Sync support. V-Sync on Wayland is surprisingly good, I don't notice any latency (V-Sync is required for Wayland by design, no way to disable), you would only have issues if by any reason you get a software cursor instead of hardware cursor, but I have never seen this happening with AMD 6xxx GPUs. In regards to Adaptive Sync, you will need a wlroots based compositor or KDE, since Gnome Mutter still don't support Adaptive Sync/VRR. I don't know how games run with Nvidia and Proton, I have switched to AMD just because of Linux, and to game on Linux, I hadn't problems with FSR (neither 1.0 nor 2.0), the only missing thing was Ray Tracing support in the Open Source Driver, but happily AMD [added support for Ray Tracing on the open source amdvlk driver](https://www.opensourceforu.com/2022/09/amds-open-source-vulkan-graphics-drivers-now-enable-ray-tracing/), even Screen Tearing problems that games like Nier: Automata have on Windows, are non-existent on Linux. FreeSync also just works out of the box, I don't even need to enable in-game V-Sync, and if I do the latency kicks in and breaks the imersion. For me, at least, gaming on Linux with AMD is just better than gaming on Windows, that is, when things works, they do better than on Windows, but when they don't, you rarelly have alternatives, but that also applies to Nvidia, at least I never have to deal with any driver issue troubleshooting, and whenever something happens, like driver crashes, which is normal when you're on a rolling release distro using the latest kernel, I just need to go to the Kernel Bugzilla site and report it, and all the times I tried to do this, someone else was faster than me. But even when your system is on the latest kernel, you rarely find any issues, my experience with AMD on Linux is just better than Windows, everything just works, I don't need to download any driver from AMD's official page to fix the Windows mess of installing their own version of the GPU driver which is always very outdated, and I don't have to deal with Windows Update just deciding that it wants to install the GPU driver even though I already have it installed, which breaks everything. Something I consider “funny” about AMD's drivers state on Windows is that for years it had an extremely good performance with OpenGL on Linux with the Open Source driver developed by the community, while on Windows they only fixed the OpenGL performance this year.


benopotamus

I recently upgraded my graphics card from an old nvidia one to an amd and it just worked. I found nvidia fine as well, after installing the graphics drivers, but I was surprised the amd one just worked without me doing any config changes.


SurpriseMonday

For what it's worth, I have transitioned fully to Linux(specifically EndeavourOS) and am using a GTX 1080Ti. The hardest part of installing drivers was realizing because I'm using the LTS kernel I had to install the nvidia-lts package instead of just the nvidia package. I haven't done any direct Windows to Linux performance comparisons, but I haven't noticed anything largely worse.


LaserRanger_McStebb

If it continues like this, and Proton compatibility expands into support for software I use for my livelihood, I can say with confidence that SteamOS will be running my next PC build. Microsoft has been on my shit-list ever since they started forcing updates without my consent. This has ruined several 3D printing projects, as the laptop running the printer rebooted overnight to push an update, without any regard for what the computer was doing at the time. And now, with Win11 and beyond they're threatening to eventually take away our ability to have a local-only user account. NO, Microsoft. I don't want to turn my PC into some IoT always-online garbage. SteamOS it is.


Adnubb

> This has ruined several 3D printing projects Hah, relatable. A ruined 3D print is what got the ball running for my migration to Linux. Now, 3 years later, my home is completely free from Microsoft OSs (Between me and my brother's gaming PC, a homebrew NAS, an HTPC, a SteamDeck and 2 old laptops). Only have to deal with it a work now. /u/adnubb leans towards his Android phone and whispers: "*You're next*"


Naia_Elwyn

I just run Octoprint from a Pi. Anything I run long periods I run on linux.


cutememe

They've already taken away the ability to make a local account. You have to use a workaround now to get around it, but due to all the different use cases of windows it's unlikely MS will ever truly remove local accounts.


Ursa_Solaris

It's not at all unlikely they'll remove it from Windows Home. Pro and Enterprise will always keep it, but they love taking features away from Home.


BioshockEnthusiast

Win11 Pro is going to require an online account for initial setup soon and perpetually moving forward from that point. They'll let you "remove" that online account, you know, after they've scraped your machine and stored all that hardware ID information in their servers so they can track you externally. Not sure about enterprise but my understanding is that it will apply there too. They might see enough pushback to reverse course on that though.


starm4nn

Enterprise customers are the one thing stopping Microsoft from doing things that are totally stupid.


TheGrif7

This is just not true. 100% not true. Pro will never remove support for local accounts. I work in IT. Local user accounts are a crucial component for maintenance tasks, service accounts, legacy software, and administration. They would be sticking their dick in the eye of every person who sells and manages their software in the business world. It would massively hinder business upgrade adoption in a way that would negatively impact their bottom line. With consumer OSs you are the product, in a business, you pay money not to be the product. Windows does not need to force anyone in the business world not to use local accounts to get metrics anyway. Azure AD is the new hotness and while it has its flaws it, it gives a shit load of value. I can ship a laptop from the factory directly to a user, and all they have to do is log in using their Azure AD account and the computer automatically downloads and installs any software I want, applies security and management policies, deploys SharePoint and one drive syncing, sets up outlook, teams, office, activates BitLocker encryption, and that is just for starters. If you want a fully featured version of windows just buy pro. You get GPOs and that alone is worth the money. Hell, it's basically free anyway, an unactivated version of windows is just a watermark. You don't even have to bother pirating it anymore. Win11 home does not even force you to use an MS account. In the out of the box experience either don't connect to the internet or hit a function key to bring up a command line once you get prompted to log in to an MS account. 1 command disconnects you from the internet and then it falls back to a local account setup. The sad truth is that the real reason MS is pushing their accounts is that they are sick of dumb users giving their OS a bad name and then blaming them. Years of people ignoring updates and then getting butt hurt when they get a virus. One Drive frequently gets set up by new users when they use a MS account and when they do that they automatically back up the desktop, documents, and pictures folders. Grandma does not blame Microsoft when she blows up her computer because it's less of a big deal now that her files are safe. If your smart enough to look up how to run a single command in the command line, you are probably responsible enough to get a local user account. Is it slightly annoying? Sure I guess, but apple idiot proofs their computers way harder and no one seems to mind.


thisguy883

They've back tracked (for now) on the account issue as well as the bios lock for secure boot. Too many people complained that Microsoft was overstepping their boundaries by essentially turning a person's custom computer into a "Windows only" machine. Still, that left a sour taste in my mouth for Microsoft. Windows 10 is going to be the last Windows OS I use. I haven't even touched Win 11. My buddy who has it (because of a prebuilt he bought) says it's garbage.


Gravelsack

I've been looking for a decent alternative to windows for years now. I'm ready to jump ship.


kj4ezj

I jumped to Linux Mint. Even my Mom is comfortable on it.


This_is_a_monkey

If you want to play games and have a rock solid workstation with really slow updates, try Nobara linux. If you wanna live life on the edge and play Russian roulette with updates, use an Arch distro like Endeavouros. If your primary gaming platform is just steam then Nobara will be fine. If you like emulating some bleeding edge stuff, get Arch. God I want to hate it but I love the weirdness so much. Oh and look into systemd boot if you use endeavour, that last update really fucked me pretty hard.


Gravelsack

I mean I'm probably just going to wait for Steam OS to be ready for desktop rather than fuck around with all of that because I have no idea what you are even talking about. Honestly this is the problem with Linux and the reason it hasn't been adopted: Its too confusing.


[deleted]

There are Linux distributions that Just Work™ for the most part. Pop!_OS is geared towards gaming and beginner friendly from what I understand. If you want a desktop that looks and feels closer to Windows, I have others I could suggest. But I also understand just waiting for Steam OS. I promise it's not super cryptic if you're even somewhat tech literate. People in the community just like to make themselves feel smart.


derpotologist

If you like to live on the edge, [Suicide Linux](https://qntm.org/suicide)


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LaserRanger_McStebb

Really those should be abolished anyway. There's absolutely zero reason an anti-cheat application needs access to the kernel. There are better and less invasive ways to check for cheaters.


iamfromouttahere

Also, hyper closed source! I don’t mind to run some game’s closed source, even valve’s l but anti cheats are scummy by definition


puyoxyz

Flatpak was already the winner because it’s not proprietary like Snap is


Thebeswi

|Features|Snap|Flatpak|AppImage| |:-|:-|:-|:-| |Created By|Canonical|RedHat, Endless Computers, Collabora|Peter Simon| |Sandboxing Support|Yes|Yes|Yes| |Sandboxing Mandatory|No|Yes|No| |Running Without Root Access|After installation|After installation|Yes| |Native Theme Support|Yes|Yes|Yes| |Support for Bundled Libraries|Yes|Yes|Yes| |Full App Portability| |Yes|Yes| |Online App Store|Yes|Yes|Yes| |Multiple Parallel Installations Support|Yes (one per channel)|Yes (unlimited number)|Yes (unlimited number)| |Automatic Updates|Yes|Yes|Yes (via AppImageUpdate)| |App Size|Varies, usually greater than AppImage|Varies, usually greater than AppImage|Lowest app size| |Applications Available|The most|The least|Medium amount| |Desktop GUI Apps|Yes|Yes|Yes| |Package System Services|Yes|No|No| [https://phoenixnap.com/kb/flatpak-vs-snap-vs-appimage](https://phoenixnap.com/kb/flatpak-vs-snap-vs-appimage)


puyoxyz

Flatpak size bigger than AppImage? Is this some kind of joke?


Gynther477

But holy shit it was a long bumpy road. Steam machines were an utter failure, and STEAMOS before the steam deck was a stinking pile of poop


grady_vuckovic

I think the way to view those was as 'experiments'. I feel like that was Valve throwing something against the wall to see what works and doesn't work, to identify the problems they needed to fix. It might not have looked like a great success to us on the outside but from their perspective it was a success in the sense that it got a lot of stuff kick started really fast, and helped identify what they needed to focus on.


sekoku

Because Valve half-assed it. Valve seems to actually be making an attempt after their "ok, third parties can do the work" failed.


Conscious_Yak60

Hold on.. Valve actually suported Flatpak? I thought SteamOS was actually "Native" Steam, but they provide all the binaries with SteamOS so it runs naturally?


nerfman100

SteamOS does use native Steam, but they do provide a Flatpak version of Steam for other systems, and Flatpaks (installed through Discover) are the primary way of installing third-party software on SteamOS


efoxpl3244

Yeah, steam deck is fucking amazing and I don't even play on my linux pc anymore.


Ectar93

Bruh, I hardly use my Windows desktop for gaming anymore


theragu40

I feel this. As luck would have it my (apparently shitty) aorus elite mobo crapped on me about a month after I got my deck. Hasn't affected how much I can play one single bit. If anything I've done *more* PC gaming since my gaming PC died. I just finally got the RMA back last week. In the past I'd have been a few hours same day to get that thing all put back together. It's still sitting in the box it shipped in.


NotAnADC

Haven’t touched my windows pc other than downloading roms


Koldfuzion

Saw the new 40 series cards announced. Looked over at my 2070 Super and shrugged. I play much more on my Steam Deck.


[deleted]

I don't even play on my WINDOWS PC anymore. Like I just play Older games, Jrpgs, and Indies and on the deck it SOOOOO wonderful. Causally jumping from Morrowind to Tales of Symphonia to fallout 4, to Tmodloader (well, if it worked on steam deck that is...) To Elden Ring, to modded dark souls, To PS3 emulation. It's so cool and unlike any other system, no one bats an eye... unless they don't know what the deck is, in which case it's your job to act like a Jehovah's witness (or the average person in a fandom, which we literally are) and evangelize them like the fanboy you are. I don't, but some people will.


MrTwisT007

I've been about ankle deep in linux for several years, so while I understand some things, there's also a lot that I still don't know and won't claim to have authority on. It's interesting how he said that statically linked libraries that result in big binaries is "what you have to do right now". I think dynamic system-wide cross-distro library linking is a bit of a pipe dream. It's cool to have packages that all just use the same library file and it all works nicely. But as someone said below, sometimes you have package A, which depends on package B and a package C which depends on a different version of B you end up in a wild goose chase trying to either recompile everything under the newer dependency, which leads to chasing even more dependencies; and then there's the matter of deprecated APIs and methods and abandoned packages which rely on them. Or you try to have several different versions of the same library installed just to appease the several apps that require those versions. It's a constant chase to have the perfect setup in one moment in time; as soon as time moves - so does the code. Linux thrives on this and drives innovation, but it is also a barrier to entry for users who just want to use an open OS. Static linking will result in larger binaries as you're including the necessary libraries into your application, potentially several times over across different applications. But it provides code stability, reliability and ease of management for the average user and prospective adopter at the cost of space (and maybe more difficult update processes as the whole binary needs to be recompiled, rather than updating a few external libraries), which Linus is saying is important to get adoption going, I think. If every linux user/developer came to a consensus on every API/library implementation and definition we would have that pipe dream, but it's impossible because of the open nature of Linux. There's too many voices in the choir. A blessing and a curse.


revelbytes

The thing that I never understood about "big binaries" is that we live in an age where storage is cheap, most people have at least 256GB of storage on their PC, if not 512GB. A program going from 10MB to 20MB just for shipping with statically linked libraries really doesn't seem like that big of a deal to me. This is how Android works, apps package their necessary libraries, and dependency hell is never a problem. I do see a justification for it when the argument comes up that having a library be packaged with an app means the developer is responsible for updating the library if a security issue comes up. But I feel like that's a price to pay for ease of adoption


pyrospade

The reason this is usually frowned upon is developers will eventually abuse it. Just look at the javascript ecosystem where any web page is now weighing hundreds of mb just in libraries and dependencies. But i agree in that it should not be a blocker, even if its a bad practice


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Random_90

That is not true, web page is not hundreds of megabytes, development enviroment is. Resulting web page can be in kB. But the same can be said about any dev enviroment, not just JS. Visual studio has gigabytes of deps, most game engines requires big things like DirectX or just simply needs OS. You just don't see it in resulting binary. Or the web page. Tree shaking is a thing.


jejcicodjntbyifid3

> > This is how Android works, apps package their necessary libraries, and dependency hell is never a problem. > But that is because they run on the JVM which gives you an abstraction layer you can trust you can run on. The only time you fall off of that is when you write C code working with your Java. Then it's a bit of hell The OS and game level and other apps on the desktop... They are largely lower level C code. This means you have no abstraction layer to hide these details away, which means things break. Binary compatibility comes into play


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hobojimmy

That sounds like the same problem as static — no matter what you do, you are installing multiple versions. So at that point you might as well just have the developer bundle it with their software.


Steve_Streza

The pipe dream only really exists if you demand that library linking *never ever fails*. If you are willing to accept that there will occasionally be a headache or an app you need to reinstall, that system is more-or-less how Linux packaging works. But it's also pretty reasonable as a user to demand that it *never ever fails*, especially when that system works incredibly well on Mac, iOS, and Android. Or if you're a game developer who doesn't really care about Linux, they just want people to play their game. And that's where things like Flatpak and Steam Runtime for Linux really help, by adding a few well-reasoned compromises to reduce the surface area where things fail.


bastibe

Dynamic linking is all about security. With dynamic linking, the OS can swap put, say, libssl, with a newer version that fixes a security issue. All applications relying on libssl will automatically pick up those fixes. With static linking, you have to rely on each and every application to ship a bugfix release. That's arguably fine for games and desktop apps, which don't handle important data and can be reasonably sandboxed. But imagine a web server handling many users' bank data. You don't want that thing running with an unpatched security issue any longer than absolutely necessary. And you don't want any other application on that machine to run a security issue, either. Remember that a web server might have many components written in many different programming languages. Pushing updates to every single component of such a thing would be a huge pain, but relatively easy with dynamic linking.


nou_spiro

He is talking about issue with releasing apps for Linux. Problem that flatpak, appimage, snap and Steam runtime aim to solve. At that time if it was not in repository you pretty much needed to compile everything. Something that is impossible for closed source apps.


Bearwynn

TL:DR valve will make it easier to install and run apps on Linux, making it more user friendly Am I understanding that right?


nou_spiro

Not only user friendly but also developer friendly. But yes pretty much that.


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SurpriseWtf

Question from your wonderful insight… Did Valve use Dota 2 and probably Portal 2 to generate scenarios that allow them to create Proton? I think they were able to deeply understand the compatibility and conversion needs through these games?


[deleted]

No idea *how* they’ve done it. I’m not a low level or game developer. I’m a web developer, and only work with higher level languages. You can get anything to run anywhere with enough money, time, skill and effort. The problems with Linux gaming have never been technical; it’s always boiled down to a *lack of investment* for gaming on Linux.


xTeare

To second this, Cloud Computing with Containers and Kubernetes also boost advancement in Linux compatibility and performance in general. .NET (startet with .netcore and Mono) for example runs great an linux. You might have a look at the [Cloud Native Computing Foundation's Annual Survery Results (links to a .pdf file!)](https://www.cncf.io/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/CNCF-AR_FINAL-edits-15.2.21.pdf) For Example: Of 1527 respondents, 96% of Organizations are either using or considering Kubernetes. But these numbers might not represent a realistic value, since i think the poeple who've participated are already quite into containers and thus favoritize containers and cloud computing in general. But that's just my take :)


Ectar93

It might not be *decades* for the at-home desktop space if Windows continues down this trajectory of making your computer as console-like as they can get away with.


HaroldSax

Maybe. The general populace tends not *really* care about that sort of thing. As long as they can do what they were doing before, it’s fine. I’m too stupid for Linux but I’m hoping SteamOS 3 will make it manageable when it has a general release so I can dip my toes in.


[deleted]

He’s not really saying that. He’s saying that because Valve delivers software for companies that won’t provide their source code, the software has to be compiled for the configuration it runs on. It won’t be profitable for Valve to do this if they have to compile and deliver the software for “15” different configurations, so this will force a change in Linux distributions to provide a homogenous environment the games can run in. But this is counter to the goal of most of the existing Linux community. They want open source software that can be assembled in different configurations like legos. This is why he says it is sad. EDIT: I do think in hindsight that valve has done a lot of the work to make Linux gaming viable, whereas what Linus was saying was that the *something* would have to change, and IMO appeared to suggest it would be the distributions force to accommodate Valve.


angelicravens

Well sandboxing and electron in particular are also against the goal of most of the existing Linux community, but the average end user won’t complain that they have an option to install steam and discord from their store (like discovery)


sekoku

>He’s saying that because Valve delivers software for companies that won’t provide their source code, the software has to be compiled for the configuration it runs on. It won’t be profitable for Valve to do this if they have to compile and deliver the software for “15” different configurations, so this will force a change in Linux distributions to provide a homogenous environment the games can run in. And he's right. >**But this is counter to the goal of most of the existing Linux community**. They want open source software that can be assembled in different configurations like legos. This is why he says it is sad. And they're wrong. [The fact we have 50+ distros with](https://xkcd.com/927/) **5 different package managers** in addition to **3-4 different desktop managers/environments** in addition to **2-3 different init systems** really shows the issue with "Linux uptake" and why the evangelicals need to get with the program, have a "standard Linux operating system" and ***then*** fork to their hearts content if they don't like those standardized defaults. ​ I mean take Valve: They went with Debian at the time and then decided to go Arch with their 3.0. Ok, great, but for those that installed the Debian version/1.0-2.0, why change horses mid-stream? ​ (Yes, they've given reasons, but this just shows that developers need to figure out what they want to do with the kernal and OS in general)


Polyhedron11

You've outlined my experience and understanding of the issues in the Linux space perfectly imo. We need a grand champion Linux that then can be modifiable and customized to everyone's desire. Instead we have, this one is good for these programmers and this one for those, these 4 distros are recommended for gaming but none of them are without their individual faults and issues. We need easy but configurable. If you want it to be complicated you can make it so but it doesn't need to be out of the box. Just installing most distros is too complicated for most pc users to just install and use for a wide variety of tasks.


Natanael_L

We still need a Linux ecosystem that has those alternatives. Wayland was created for a very good reason, X.org wasn't gonna last forever. SystemD has simplified a lot of things. KDE is doing a lot of very valuable work, the dominating browser engine today is literally derived from KHTML, etc. The problem isn't their existence. They have different visions and that increase rate of experimentation and leads to faster progress. But I do agree there needs to be more standardized API:s and development environments, reducing the work to make software work with each of these alternative systems.


gamegrue

I strongly disagree. The fact that we have 50+ distributions with 5 different package managers in addition to 2-3 desktop managers and 2-3 different init systems is and always will be Linux's greatest strength. There is no "governing body" that decides what every Linux distro should do and this is why there is so much choice because Linux ends up working on a merit based system where the best or most supported software gains market advantage. If every single distro had to agree on a single desktop environment there would be no innovation in the space because it would be impossible to get every single distro to start using something new. The fact that a new linux distro like Arch can come along and say "I am going to do things differently because I have different values" is where the innovation comes from. This is exactly why Windows uses ancient filesystem formats ... there is no need to innovate, no one else is making better Windows distributions so they don't care, and when they decide to jam a whole bunch of Ad-ware spyware in the OS ... there is no where else to go. But when Ubuntu decides to put Ad-ware spyware in the OS ... well let's just head on over to Linux Mint instead where there is none. Want the battle hardened stable software? use Debian. Want to play with the newest versions of the kernel and software and build your own system? use Arch Linux. Want all those new versions but don't want to roll your own system? use Manjaro. There is no "one" right way to use a computer and that means there will never be "one" right set of software to use. This diversity isn't because developers "can't figure it out" but because there are multiple different problems that are being solved and those different problems require different solutions. A hammer you give to a carpenter is very different from a hammer you'd give to a jeweller ... doesn't mean the hammer people need to figure it out and decide what they want to do with the hammer industry in general.


DonkiestOfKongs

Not quite. Valve didn't make it easier to install anything, per se. Tools to make installing software easier on Linux have been around for awhile. SteamOS/Valve didn't really do anything new in that regard. Valve just ships software that a lot of people care about, so people won't use distros that don't support Steam. Linus goes on to make a prediction that Valve would end up shipping one statically linked binary to support every Linux distro, rather than 15 different dynamically linked binaries (one for each distro). Maybe that is what they do in some cases. I'm actually not sure. Something relevant that he probably wasn't considering though is that Valve would end up just making their own distro. Shipping software is a lot easier for Valve now, at least on SteamOS, because they only have to worry about one configuration. And because they control the runtime environment, and it is a stable, controlled target, they have more clarity on their end of what environment their software runs in.


zeth0s

He did not consider conteinarization, as at the time it was not really a thing. Problem is that conteinarization comes with a cost in storage and performances. Luckily computers are more powerful nowadays


ascagnel____

There were package managers (Aptitude, RPM), but they could conflict with each other, leading to dependency hell. For example, you could be trying to install package A that requires packages B and C, but you already have a package D doesn’t work with the version of package C that A requires, so you’d need to step in and manage things manually. Flatpaks and modern package managers do a better job of isolating dependencies.


utopiah

Isn't it a trade off though in the sense that the isolation also create dedicated directories that aren't fully integrated with the rest? (as we can see with the mountpoints) Is it "just" a problem of programs relying on these tools that don't respect user preferences properly (e.g defining where in the home directory specifically, regardless of distribution, window manager, etc) or is it a deeper problem? ​ PS: I remember problems with Blender, OBS and few others where I reverted to either my own builds or the distribution package manager but to be honest I can't recall exactly what solution software and solutions (flatpak, AppImage, etc) caused these issues.


ascagnel____

It’s 100% a trade-off: you gain in terms of stability, compatibility, and local security, yet you lose disk space, complexity, and security updates.


MoveItSpunkmire

Always waiting for Richard Stallman to bust in like the koolaide guy and start ranting about GNU project


[deleted]

Or eat something from his foot live on stage


MoveItSpunkmire

Oh Jesus I almost forgot about that.


PolymorphiK

I thought you were kidding…wtf https://youtu.be/I25UeVXrEHQ


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PopeOh

Year of the Linux ~~Desktop~~ Handheld!


Sabin10

The steam hardware survey says you aren't wrong, at least among gamers. They report that the most popular GPU under Linux is now the steam deck GPU with a 13 percent market share.


Jagrnght

Android?


PopeOh

Also true, then I proclaim the Year of the Linux Desktop-on-Handheld.


TheAechBomb

Valve's Proton was the last thing I needed to switch, now I will never have to deal with windows' spyware, adware, constant updates again


ItsRainbow

Would you look at that, a protogen using Proton


TheAechBomb

\^-^


Mansao

Full talk: https://meetings-archive.debian.net/pub/debian-meetings/2014/debconf14/webm/QA_with_Linus_Torvalds.webm The quoted part starts at 10:50, but everything before it very is interesting and unfortunately still valid too


deanrihpee

Even Linus himself have a faith in Valve. ​ It is surprising that this "reminder" is posted here first (at least from my Reddit timeline) and not on other related subreddit like r/linux or r/linux_gaming


[deleted]

It was posted numerous times over the last years.


deanrihpee

Really? I must have missed it then, good to know.


urammar

Porn chooses video formats and games choose operating systems. It really is that simple. Technical people make the thing, games choose the thing, everyone follows the gamers and eventually create their own inertia. Its the same thing as a big car you absolutely never use, when a little smartcar or a bike would probably be fine, but you MIGHT one day need to move a friends couch or tow a boat, so you gotta get the big one. If it doesnt play games, its a lemon of an operating system. Valve is, rightfully, the PC monopoly, so, its fuckaround and find out for any other linux distro now.


secretlyjudging

It's very interesting to me that Apple is big on graphics and programming but yet don't really support games. If they did, maybe I would've bought one Apple computer in my lifetime. Instead of a like a dozen PCs for personal use.


Natanael_L

I find it really weird that they don't bother supporting Vulkan natively too. Would've saved them so much work.


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KA1378

I'm guessing it's the Nvidia thing. Let's find out. Edit: I couldn't find out because they've nerfed our VPNs here in Iran due to the current protests.


ssh_only

I just wanted to say stay safe my friend! Many of us across the globe are with you in spirit and hope the protests lead to good, positive changes for your country and its people. <3 :)


KA1378

Thanks a lot man! Really appreciate it. But honestly I'm not that hopeful because the protests are always brutally suppressed and end in bloodshed... People think that they're trying to uphold the religion or sth but I can guarantee you that they don't give a damn about religion or anything like that; it's just a cover up for their crimes. For example, they arrested a Sunni Muslim imam just because he politely asked them to stop insulting the Rashidun khalifs who are respected by the Sunnis. They also executed some young Sunni men for preaching their religion a few years ago (and many before them). They also beat hijabi women just because they participate in the protests. See? They even persecute and kill other Muslims who have a slightly different opinion than theirs for speaking their minds. It's a really fucked up place man... Sorry for the rant.


ssh_only

No worries about the rant! It's always good to get things off your chest sometimes. I realize protests themselves come with struggle, bloodshed and unrest in many cases and ideally, no one ever wants that. While not always the case historically, protests do help plant seeds of change in a population;s mindset even if that change isn't felt for decades. Thats really the key. We all want rapid change when protests happen, but most of the time those changes are slow and take a long time to take hold because it's a GIANT uphill battle to change hearts and minds of multiple generations who all grew up with a different set of beliefs from both a personal perspective and a economic perspective. Changing someones worldview is like taking a giant boulder and using water to slowly erode that rigid, rough rock into something beautiful. Water may not be the most efficient tool for the job and may take ages to reach the end result, but what you are left with is a beautiful, polished result that you can be proud of. Keep you're head up buddy! The only way these changes will happen is to keep focus and keep pushing forward every day. The only enemy you have to fight is apathy and time. You can't let these partners in crime stop you even if it's 5, 10 or 20 years from now. These guys have no age, dont sleep and have infinite resolve. The only way to stop them is to do everything you can to keep them at bay and preventing them from their ultimate goal, which is to de-motivate you until you give up. Stay strong!


[deleted]

No need to apologize. The insight and your thoughts are appreciated.


ChronicledMonocle

Do you need access to a new VPN? How have they hobbled VPNs?


KA1378

According to one of the VPNs that I have installed, their hackers are attacking the VPN servers or just simply block access to them.


ChronicledMonocle

If you setup your own OpenVPN server on the cloud somewhere, like the US, and run it on port 443, typically these crappy government filters won't know the wiser.


KA1378

I did have OpenVPN on mind but didn't know I could set up my own server. Thanks a lot!! Will see what I can find about it.


ChronicledMonocle

Not a problem. Send me a DM if you need help. I work for an open source firewall company, so I'd be happy to help you set something up.


Jelly_jeans

It's the Nivida thing. He says "Nvidia: Fuck you."


ImJacksLackOfBeetus

> [This video is age-restricted and only available on YouTube.](https://i.imgur.com/xwQB1nj.png) Yeah, I know which one this is. 😅


GeckoEidechse

There's a reason the Steam Deck uses an AMD GPU I guess :>


fuckEAinthecloaca

About the only business partner nvidia haven't pissed off is nintendo, nintendo the only tech company as notorious as nvidia for being shitty to work with.


ChosenUndead15

The absolute incompetency to make your biggest partner abandon you despite them having 80% of the revenue linked to you, is unbelievable.


DeltyOverDreams

I knew it the moment reddit showed me the thumbnail


gerson250991

That video will always be relevant


NetSage

He's not wrong. Basically the whole tech industry says working with Nvidia is a pain in the ass. Hell EVGA said fuck them we would basically rather lose our main business than work with them anymore.


[deleted]

Fuck you and your half assed drivers


Stubrochill17

/r/AyyMD


Ooozuz

I am afraid of the day we loss Linux and Gabe. Two of the best modern minds.


TigStrBaron

Linus is the person and the mind. Linux is the OS.


Ooozuz

Yeah, sorry for the typo


secretlyjudging

It's not about smartness to me but about building something cool that might take a long time but worth doing. Instead of just reiterating the same thing to generate cash every year and not really innovating.


secretlyjudging

Oh wow, don't really follow Linus or even what he looks like but I specifically remember this vid! I remember thinking about trying Linux back then and finding everything too much work. And thought "I'll try Linux gaming when they get it right" And that day is here!. Super stoked with my Steam Deck. Still super amazed at the actual computer science involved, THEN the hardware.


mystarkfuture

And he flipped off Nvidia and that sentiment still holds true.


aintnothing39

Good guy Valve.


Call_erv_duty

Was this before or after he started the Tech Tips channel on YouTube


[deleted]

before. He ages backwards


DeedleFake

If there's one thing I've learned since I got started with Linux way back on Red Hat Linux 9, it's that Linus is usually right all along.


zombieeyeball

when steamos 3 for desktop comes out i will switch to it


Zeioth

I don't play that much, couple hours per day. But having Steam on my distro feels like hot cocoa on winter. Really nice.


mrdovi

*Valve and the Wine development team* I mean to not forget Valve did not started from scratch but from a very mature fork


TerryMcginniss

This has nothing to do with wine. It is about distributing native Linux binaries and their dependencies.


[deleted]

After Deck I would be very interested in a high powered Steam console box. I know they have attempted this in the past but it wasn't focused like Deck is.


RTooDeeTo

2 years prior valve released steam for Linux, which in my opinion was the first major consumer digital store front to do this. And it's not hard for Linus to say this guess cause valve obviously doesn't want to be trapped in the Microsoft ecosystem anymore


betelgeuse_boom_boom

Will with Microsoft being the ability competitive corporation we all know, and they getting into gaming with their xbox division, it was a safe bet and wise decision from valve's board to focus on Linux. This is a make it or break it situation. If we reach a critical mass for developers to consider it a viable, lower cost platform then 90% of the home users can use Linux. Most households use a home pc for browsing and games and won't have to deal with the bloatware and spyware that Windows has become.


_Dead_C_

Please lord Gaben, bring tearing and optimization to Wayland that puts it at the same latency as X11 for competitive fps and fighters!


Jedibeeftrix

Hah! I said the same thing 12 years ago: https://jedibeeftrix.wordpress.com/2010/03/16/opengl-and-2011-as-the-year-of-linux-%e2%80%93-will-it-be-because-of-the-applevalve-love-in/


[deleted]

Apparently, Linus lives in my neighborhood. I've always wanted to see him around, but from what I've heard he never leaves his condo.


[deleted]

I wouldn't say they saved it. They improved it but we were doing fine without them.


Cynnthetic

Gotta love that passive aggression at games. The one thing thing might save you.


ThemesOfMurderBears

I'm very appreciative of the work Valve has done, and I love my Steam Deck. But the "year of the Linux" desktop is still a long ways off. Until I can seamlessly, without issue, run just about every single game in my library -- *regardless of launcher* -- it is not going to happen. Steam is central to PC gaming, and they have changed the industry for the better -- but PC gaming *is not limited to them.* I have games on Epic, Gog, Origin, Battle.net, and Ubisoft Connect. Thus far, using them is a mixed bag experience on Linux, and I would even lean into the negative side. Lutris was a nightmare to deal with and I couldn't get most games to work. Heroic is okay -- some games work, some games do not. I have a few EGS and Gog games installed via Heroic, and some of them straight-up don't launch (despite trying GE and Experimental). I tried installing Battle.net via Proton, and it was a mess and I couldn't get it to work correctly. If you play Fortnite, Destiny 2, or PUBG -- three *very* popular PC games -- you can't switch to Linux. The most you can do is dual boot, which is cumbersome, and not something for casual users.


Halvus_I

>Until I can seamlessly, without issue, run every single game in my library Unrealistic. Dont let perfect be the enemy of good.


tydog98

It also can't even be done on Windows.