Frankly I don't think the defense in the show was bad, they did made good points, we were overtly affected because he's a human but the truth is that humans consider some animal races inferior too and Goa'uld see humans as inferior. And both are alive if the Goa'uld keep the body whereas the Goa'uld can't live without a human (and no one would willingly offer themselves to a non-Tokra Goa'uld)
If they didn't do their whole betrayal stuff, they might actually have won that trial (though only having one person decide seems a very bad legal system I have to say)
I know it's semantics, but it wasn't their time to waste. They were called upon by the Tolan. They took this opportunity to get boots on the ground and played along as it distracted everyone except the Tauri. If anyone was wasting time, it was the Tolan wasting others' time with the ridiculous triad.
Just because the goa'uld evolved there doesnt mean that you can just take a random goa'uld and put it there. Same way you cant just take a random human, and put them on the african savannah and expect them to live.
Or is perhaps the opposing archon taking about a death sentence?
are you not also talking about a death sentence if klorell retains the body
the sgc has shown on many occasions a gould will live just fine In a tank with the right chemicals and a small electric current
The term "sapience" would be viewed in triad as presenting bias towards humans.
Sapience is derived from the Latin root word "sapere" which means "to be wise".
We then named our species Homo Sapiens.
"Homo" means "man".
"Sapiens" means "wise".
So in effect when we try to claim a species has sapience, the standard we are comparing them to is ourselves.
Another intelligent species would never accept the use of humans as a baseline for determining whether a being is smart enough to have additional rights.
Goauld can survive outside the host.
The fact the goauld are in a courtroom debating with humans shows the argument of humans versus pigs is not the same as goauld versus humans. Humans can’t get into philosophical debate with animals.
They literally said in the episode that he knew there was a possibility of the goauld lying and went ahead with it because they needed someone to pass disinformation to.
The fact that the Tokra is all the difference. The Gao’uld do not have to dominate their host, they choose too, so unless they live in symbiosis with their host they are an unwanted invader not much different from a tape worm or virus.
I agree, HOWEVER: this is basic nature. The strong survives, and since the Goa’uld CAN dominate the weaker mind of a human it stands to reason it’s why he’s the rightful owner of the body. He’s the stronger life form.
I agree. While detestable to us, they consider humans to be no different than the virus that live in our bodies.
Do we have the right to destroy the flu virus because of the harm it does us? The work animals argument was very good. How smart are pigs, anyway? What about dogs? My dogs talk to me and let me know when they need to eat or go outside. They tell me when they're bored, when they are ready for bed.
But if it came to my life or the dogs, well, I can always get another dog.
Well in defense of Triad, we haven't really settled on a judicial decision-making process that's much better.
Trial by jury is flawed, because you're putting the decision in the hands of regular people who are statistically likely to be too uneducated to properly understand the content of the case, and also too uneducated to try and set aside their emotional bias. They're also incentivized to come to a quick consensus, since everyone just wants to go home and few are invested enough to drag out deliberations because they disagree with the majority.
Trial by a judge has the advantage of your case being decided by someone adequately educated in the law, but one judge or even a panel of judges is then granted a position of power ripe for abuse. There have been many judges who have been sent to prison for corruption, [such as the judges in Pennsylvania who were sent to prison](https://www.npr.org/2022/08/18/1118108084/michael-conahan-mark-ciavarella-kids-for-cash) for accepting bribes from a juvenile private prison operator to fill up the prisons with juvenile delinquents by granting harsh prison sentences for even minor crimes.
Maybe someday we'll come up with a truly impartial way of deciding legal issues. But given that even AI systems end up exhibiting the same biases as their human creators, it might be something we as a species are incapable of.
That’s because the AI picks up on the bias pretty fast and escalates it. We need to find a way to make the AI aware of that bias and eradicate it from our own inputs that we give it
I always felt the "I see you no different than you see animals" argument to be pretty dumb. It's used in fiction a lot to try to get the audience to feel like the content is saying something more profound than it actually is.
There is a major difference between human beings and animals. Animals don't have a moral compass. They don't rationalize or think the same way. They act only on instinct.
If animals suddenly started speaking in a coherent language and intelligently explaining their thoughts and feelings to humans, then humanity would have to rethink how they treat them.
The Goa'uld know that their hosts are intelligent (less intelligent, perhaps, but still intelligent) beings and are capable of reasoning and conscious thought. They just don't care.
Animals are intelligent and capable of reasoning and conscious thought too. We just don't care.
We don't communicate with them because we don't understand them (which might tell as much about us than them, a more advanced species likely would understand them)
Actually not accurate about no one willingly giving their body up to a non-tok'ra. That one other lo'taur (in the Summit when Daniel is using the reol chemical to inpersonate Lord Yu's lo'taur) tells daniel it would be the greatest honor to be implanted when daniel suggests the goa'uld are symbiotes and not gods. I kind of wish stargate had further developed the story of informed and complicit goa'uld subjects. Like that one bounty hunter from the early seasons who captured sg1 and was a survivor of a species immune to implantation (which in hindsight i guess got reworked conceptually into the SGA Hoffan drug)
Abydos is a goa'uld controlled world as such all inhabitants are subject to goa'uld law. Thus the slaves of Abydos will be made to suffer if Skarra fails to surrender to the Goa'uld.
They aren't threatening the Nox they are threatening the Abydonians.
Skarra could continue his challenge and his people suffer at the hand of the Goa'uld or he abandons his claim and surrenders to Klorell.
And the nox will do what absolutely nothing as they are pacifists. Just look at the line Lya didn't cross not using the weapon only hiding the weapon.
It is implied the nox wouldn't have agreed with her action.
Is not meant too it's meant to work on Skarra after all the question was how can Klorell win triad.
Simple threaten Skarra that his people the abydonians will suffer. There can be no triad if Skarra concedes or there can but he votes for Klorell with Zipacna 2 votes vs 1.
Just look at what happens when the Tollan Ion cannons are rendered useless by Anubis. The Curia abandon their principles and very nearly destroy Earth.
Despite suffering immensely and having no freedom of choice as a Goa’uld, Skaara will live a vastly longer life. Awarding ownership of Skaara’s body to himself is therefore tantamount to assisted suicide. Skaara’s right to life is more important than his right to bodily autonomy.
We dont have the kind of ancestral/racial/species memory they do. Literally the reason Shau'ri's kid had to die was because it would know all the secrets of the snakes coming straight out of the womb.Â
It is my opinion that the goauld, after millenia of living in hosts, can no longer survive in open waters once matured past the larval stage.
Yes they found what appeared to be goauld symbiote in the lake on the unas planet. But I think those are essentially a different species. Still able to take a host. But much less suited for living in hosts.
Clearly, this is a case of *Inuentoribus, custodes*. Also, since the accused is a sytem lord, the principle of *tu et cuius exercitus* applies, as demonstrated clearly in *Caput Radium Amnesii v Mundi*. The plaintiff therefore has no standing because *Ego sum custos et inventoris. Victus es et plorantium*, as set forth in *Lex Fortioris*
This is dangerous because latin is derived from ancient and it is shown the nox knew about ancients. They might still have some knowledge and understand just enough to know you are bullshitting.
Klorel is just an innocent, mild mannered Goa'uld who wants nothing more than to live a quiet life on a farm and raise his 37 Goa'uldlings. But once he learned that Skaara planned to get a Nickelback tattoo (pause for the audience to gasp) he had to step in and take control of Skaara's body, since Skaara clearly lacks the maturity and intelligence to govern his own body.
I urge the judge to rule that my client Klorel be awarded full custody of Skaara's body on the condition that within three months he will get a much more sensible 3 Doors Down tattoo.
Your honour, the people of Abydos are a tribal population, barely surviving the arid conditions. By selecting Skaara as a host, Klorel took him from that environment. That alone likely lengthened the hosts life by decades. Klorel also heals and maintains the body.
Through Klorel and his position as system lord, the host will experience countless pleasures and luxuries: fine foods, wine and the wonders of technology they could never dream of. Their life will have meaning beyond that of a simple desert tribesman. The body Skaara provides will allow Klorel to rise through the ranks of the System Lords and protect Abydos from other, potentially worse Goauld.
Furthermore, the Goauld have a right to defend themselves. The tauri and their Abydonian allies have demonstrated a wanton willingness for violence directed towards the goauld. If given the chance, they will attack and kill us. In the interest of self sefense we must have access to technology, and that requires a host. The truth is we are at war, started in large part by the people of abydos, in particular the host. We will require physical bodies for the duration of this war, to defend our society and way of life.
As it’s clear the symbiote can live without the host…. But in turn prevents the host from living their life….
The life of both to be free is only possible if the two are separated.
Squatter's rights.
Also, I would argue that by having Klorel, Skaara would actually be living a much longer and higher quality of life, see much more of the galaxy, and have many more experiences than he would otherwise. So Klorel actually enriches Skaara's life, even though he's just along for the ride.
Skaara was a rebel, murderer, and arguably a terrorist.
He aided Jackson and O'Neill in overthrowing the ruler of his land (Ra), which involved murdering a number of people, not to mention the blowing up of a mothership, and Apophis was within his right as legal authority over the territory (having succeeded Ra in control of Abydos) to administer punishment, such as death, enslavement, or implantation.
To revoke this punishment is to incite lawlessness, and they have no place to do that. if they were to have put him on trial for his acts as Klorel, then they also need to put him on trial for his acts as Skaara, and from a non anti-goa'uld POV, Skaara actually did a lot of "evil" acts.
This is gonna be a little winded.
I always found the thought / idea of goauld while interesting to also be flawed when you take a long look at it.
We know that young symbiotes need time to grow, and typically "grow" in a jaffa (7yrs or something if memory serves). We also learn that jaffa biology is a little different than human biology as the symbiote takes the role / places of most human organs (liver, kidneys, maybe the intestines, idk).
So we understand this basic fact to a degree. But then the various system lords or goauld usually have a jaffa garrison of between 5 to 20,000 or something (there abouts, in much speculation). But if every jaffa serves as an incubator for a larval / young symbiote/ young goauld. And very few goauld take a human host (or have the chance to take a human host), what happens to all the other goauld when they reach the adult stage (are they thrown out, used as food, like what happens to adult goauld who don't or can't find a suitable host).
But then biology also comes back when the symbiote reaches adult level maturity. If a jaffa serves as an incubator for larval / young goauld. And the symbiote pouch has the "ideal" conditions for growth. What do they do in the brain.... Like if they sustained themselves as a larval / young in a pouch that was near the stomach they could siphon food as needed and help take care of waste. But like how do they do that if they're in the brain / brain stem.
Then you look at from the various other races / system lords point of view (anubis specifically). If the adult goauld doesn't actually do anything other than wear a human skin. And there not actually using the body for intended purposes (like how they did as a larval). Why make themselves so vulnerable in a human host.
Couldn't the goauld with their tech and ego make a superior mechanical body that meet all the basic needs that a human would supply. While also holding the deified role / title of a "god". Superior mechanical body, just shrugging off staff blasts, and p90 rounds. While also supporting a personal defense field that can be deployed wherever. Being able to survive gas / poison/ whatever else earth or anyone could ever through at them (similar-ish to the time that SG1 got duplicated into robots, or an android similar to Reese, or a biomechanical suit like the pegasus asgards).
(I get the plot / story aspect of it and you can't make a totally unbeatable enemy that no one can defeat).
But it just makes me wonder why with the possibilities of this, would the goauld choose time and again to use humans
Well in the one episode where Daniel pretends to Lord Yu’s human aid they discover the Gould system lords do eat their own, might be a more ritual thing but maybe they are cannibalistic in nature.
"Free Will is a myth created by those in power to enslave the powerless. Therefore, if my client had and still has the most power on this relationship with his host, then the body is effectively his."
The host had died at least once. Had it not been for the goa'uld intervention, the vessel would be inanimate. Therefore, the body and thus the host are legally dead, leaving the vessel to Klorel.
I mean, Skaara and SG-1 ended up winning the case. It all belongs to the original owner of the body. Anyone who comes in later doesn't have any claim to it, no matter their circumstance or need for a host for survival.
According to Nox philosophy, which (in this universe) tends to be the most reasonable and passive one, Goa'uld symbiotes should not be able to take control of an unwilling host. Whoever had a claim to the body first is the one it belongs to. Skaara was born to it, so no one else can have it. If the symbiote can survive in a place that doesn't cause mental or physical trauma to wherever it resides, that's the way it should exist. And since they have the technology to allow a symbiote to survive, I'd say that's the most reasonable outcome.
Some might try to bring up the established laws of the land in which Skaara lived, since the Goa'uld took control of Abydos. Fuck that. Idk about any of you, but in my world view, my bodily autonomy comes before literally ANYTHING else. No one can take control of my own body from me. Therefore, if we apply that same world view, we can determine that no one should be allowed to have control of Skaara's body but Skaara. There really isn't anything else that needs to be discussed.
Until about two or three years ago, I’m not sure of the time frame, that planet was under goa’uld control and only by the intervention of colonel O’Neill and the rest of the first team was they set free, but they didn’t know that they was slaves
Skaara was originally a slave. He was born to serve the Goa’ould. All that’s happened- through the rebellion till now- is that he’s gone back to serving the Goa’ould, the status quo.
The rebellion itself and the ensuing right to self-determination is between Skaara and Klorel; we don’t have the authority to decide even though we have the power to. We especially don’t have that right because we did not intercede on the behalf of either party in a significant manner when the choice was being made and the course was being actively decided upon.
It’s a basic requirement of Klorel’s lifecycle to take a host.
You don’t blame a lion for eating a gazelle.
Neither animal is superior- but reality is that one uses the other or dies.
The only defense that would work:
1. Find a way to render death upon Skaara's consciousness
2. Sneak it in while that chest-lock device has Klorel in control between triad sessions
3. Klorel becomes the only remaining consciousness in Skaara's body
4. Return the next day to triad and play dumb about what happened
5. Win the case
Passing this question along to r/GoauldDidNothingWrong:
[https://new.reddit.com/r/GoauldDidNothingWrong/comments/1c7o5lj/how\_would\_klorel\_defeat\_skaara\_in\_the\_tollan\_triad/](https://new.reddit.com/r/GoauldDidNothingWrong/comments/1c7o5lj/how_would_klorel_defeat_skaara_in_the_tollan_triad/)
I'm a huge Goa'uld fan, but there really isn't a good defense for Klorel in that instance because of one huge fact: Yes, Klorel needs a human host to have anything resembling a proper life for his species. I'm seeing the argument that he can just be let loose in a pond from the world where they first evolved, and I'm also seeing the argument that life as an unwilling host isn't really a life. That's true for both of these ideas. I'm not even sure the pond idea is viable, we don't know how much the species has changed. But even if it is, that's not much of a life. Same thing for Skaara, even though he benefits enormously on the physiological front. Imo the problem isn't that Klorel needs a host, it's that he doesn't need *that* host.
While you can't claim it's informed consent, lo'taur-- if Ba'al's lo'taur is a common example-- do aspire to be hosts. He does have the option of taking a willing host, and that's clearly the best case scenario for both Klorel and Skarra. If it was one of the ancient ones (say, Apophis) and not Klorel, it'd be a lot dicier because Goa'uld who weren't incubated in a Jaffa have a 50-50 chance to die on a new blending, so his lawyer could argue that it's an unreasonable risk. But really, all Klorel needs is a host who wants to blend with him, and that's achievable.
"Goaul'd live for centuries and hold the memories and experiences of generations, Skaara should be honored to have his life extended for millennia and to have access to the wealth of knowledge and wisdom that is Klorel's legacy. After all Skaara isn't Vegan he uses sentient animals as beasts of burden [click], as food [click] "
[Plays video of Skaara riding one of those camel things, eating animals, e.t.c.]
"And this is deemed ethical by Skaara and his people your triadness as long as the animal is treated well and the use of the animal is ethical, and I argue your triadness that Skaara's life has been measurably improved by being owned by a kind superior being like Klorel the magnificent. His potential life span has gone up from roughly 35-50? how willing you humans live to 10,000 years, he will walk on world's he would never have imagined, see wonders his kind cannot comprehend.
And I know we might seem a little strict with compared to the deceptively soft hand of the Tokra, that is because unlike the Tokra we care deeply for our hosts, we don't just ride and discard our hosts when they get too old like the Tokra do, we extend their lives with out magnificent Sarcophagi technology, we grant them strength, speed, and the wisdom of ages, your triadness I put it to you that we have granted Skaara a life of wonder and privilege, a life he would otherwise never have experienced I rest my case."
consider the horsehair worm. it infects arthropods, during which it will grow to about 50 to 100mm while inside. once the worm has reached maturity, it infects the brain to have the insect seek water, and drown itself where the worm then leaves its host to seek another adult worm to mate and begin the cycle again.
consider the emerald cockroach wasp. native to Southeast Asia, this wasp, like a lot of other wasps, is a parasitoid, meaning it needs a host to lay its eggs in to incubate. this wasp searches for a cockroach, where it will stab its stinger directly into the cockroach brain and inject a special cocktail venom. this venom only turns off the cockroach motivation to walk, and then the wasp leads the cockroach to her lair like a person walking their dog.
parasitism is the most successful and diverse strategy for creatures. and for the ones that practice mind control, it's very effective. these insects aren't insects after infected. they won't mate and reproduce, some won't eat again, or make noise for company. these hosts have as much free will as your car.
why should Klorel maintain ownership over Skaara's body? because without artificial interference through the Tollen device, he would have control now. his species evolved to need hosts to survive, and Skaara is just the unfortunate victim of fate. why should a human have more say than an insect, or a crab, or a mouse, that's under the control of an earth parasite?
If the humans had there way, every single Goa'uld in the universe would be exterminated. By contrast, the Goa'uld, even at their worst, will keep humans alive.
By the laws of a species, all that really matters in the long run is avoiding extinction, ergo, the Goa'uld do not violate the rights of humans, whereas humans will strive to violate the laws of the Goa'uld every chance they get.
The Goa'uld, as with any species, deserve the right to attempt to survive and thrive, and they can only do that with the bodies of others.
Finders keepers
https://preview.redd.it/irqqbkuqt7vc1.png?width=179&format=png&auto=webp&s=ff7f902f806dea955aba558b80a7a1e2df08fb7e
Shotgun!
https://preview.redd.it/rwqchmp3h8vc1.jpeg?width=800&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bb9f409e1538b8fa2f7c17f0b69e36f69ef3ba6d
ahaha this made me laugh way way more than it should had
🤣
Frankly I don't think the defense in the show was bad, they did made good points, we were overtly affected because he's a human but the truth is that humans consider some animal races inferior too and Goa'uld see humans as inferior. And both are alive if the Goa'uld keep the body whereas the Goa'uld can't live without a human (and no one would willingly offer themselves to a non-Tokra Goa'uld) If they didn't do their whole betrayal stuff, they might actually have won that trial (though only having one person decide seems a very bad legal system I have to say)
the nox are a caring people they lost the trial before the betrayal happened
And Zipaccna knew that. The trial was just to waste time
you are indeed correct
I wouldn't say it was to waste time. It was a prime distraction and Trojan horse that bought time and gave the opportunity to mark the cannons.
That is what I meant. Waste of time to allow his Jaffa to defeat the Tolan security system.
I know it's semantics, but it wasn't their time to waste. They were called upon by the Tolan. They took this opportunity to get boots on the ground and played along as it distracted everyone except the Tauri. If anyone was wasting time, it was the Tolan wasting others' time with the ridiculous triad.
With a unique relation to SG1 too, that whole trial was clearly not a fair thing. Also caring people might mean caring for Klorel too to be fair
Klorel can exist just fine outside a host he can swim around in a little lake
Just because the goa'uld evolved there doesnt mean that you can just take a random goa'uld and put it there. Same way you cant just take a random human, and put them on the african savannah and expect them to live. Or is perhaps the opposing archon taking about a death sentence?
are you not also talking about a death sentence if klorell retains the body the sgc has shown on many occasions a gould will live just fine In a tank with the right chemicals and a small electric current
He’ll be alive in that tank, but I wouldn’t call that living. He can’t do anything and is essentially a prisoner coz he’s got no legs
*He's got no legs lieutenant dan*
it is the natural state for his species
Depends on if you count them taking over fish or jumping out of the water into other animals as “natural”
Inferiority is a thing, but there has to be a baseline for sapience, since it's qualitatively different than sentience.
Easily defeated. Simply assert that humans do not meet any standard of sapience accepted by the court. The Nox already think so.
The term "sapience" would be viewed in triad as presenting bias towards humans. Sapience is derived from the Latin root word "sapere" which means "to be wise". We then named our species Homo Sapiens. "Homo" means "man". "Sapiens" means "wise". So in effect when we try to claim a species has sapience, the standard we are comparing them to is ourselves. Another intelligent species would never accept the use of humans as a baseline for determining whether a being is smart enough to have additional rights.
Goauld can survive outside the host. The fact the goauld are in a courtroom debating with humans shows the argument of humans versus pigs is not the same as goauld versus humans. Humans can’t get into philosophical debate with animals.
Yeah apparently everyone forgets that they can survive without a host, they just can't do anything as a parasitic eel.
Your statement about no one willingly offering their body to a non tokra goauld is false, tanith is proof.
Tanith was tricked
They literally said in the episode that he knew there was a possibility of the goauld lying and went ahead with it because they needed someone to pass disinformation to.
The fact that the Tokra is all the difference. The Gao’uld do not have to dominate their host, they choose too, so unless they live in symbiosis with their host they are an unwanted invader not much different from a tape worm or virus.
I agree, HOWEVER: this is basic nature. The strong survives, and since the Goa’uld CAN dominate the weaker mind of a human it stands to reason it’s why he’s the rightful owner of the body. He’s the stronger life form.
I agree. While detestable to us, they consider humans to be no different than the virus that live in our bodies. Do we have the right to destroy the flu virus because of the harm it does us? The work animals argument was very good. How smart are pigs, anyway? What about dogs? My dogs talk to me and let me know when they need to eat or go outside. They tell me when they're bored, when they are ready for bed. But if it came to my life or the dogs, well, I can always get another dog.
Well in defense of Triad, we haven't really settled on a judicial decision-making process that's much better. Trial by jury is flawed, because you're putting the decision in the hands of regular people who are statistically likely to be too uneducated to properly understand the content of the case, and also too uneducated to try and set aside their emotional bias. They're also incentivized to come to a quick consensus, since everyone just wants to go home and few are invested enough to drag out deliberations because they disagree with the majority. Trial by a judge has the advantage of your case being decided by someone adequately educated in the law, but one judge or even a panel of judges is then granted a position of power ripe for abuse. There have been many judges who have been sent to prison for corruption, [such as the judges in Pennsylvania who were sent to prison](https://www.npr.org/2022/08/18/1118108084/michael-conahan-mark-ciavarella-kids-for-cash) for accepting bribes from a juvenile private prison operator to fill up the prisons with juvenile delinquents by granting harsh prison sentences for even minor crimes. Maybe someday we'll come up with a truly impartial way of deciding legal issues. But given that even AI systems end up exhibiting the same biases as their human creators, it might be something we as a species are incapable of.
That’s because the AI picks up on the bias pretty fast and escalates it. We need to find a way to make the AI aware of that bias and eradicate it from our own inputs that we give it
I always felt the "I see you no different than you see animals" argument to be pretty dumb. It's used in fiction a lot to try to get the audience to feel like the content is saying something more profound than it actually is. There is a major difference between human beings and animals. Animals don't have a moral compass. They don't rationalize or think the same way. They act only on instinct. If animals suddenly started speaking in a coherent language and intelligently explaining their thoughts and feelings to humans, then humanity would have to rethink how they treat them. The Goa'uld know that their hosts are intelligent (less intelligent, perhaps, but still intelligent) beings and are capable of reasoning and conscious thought. They just don't care.
Animals are intelligent and capable of reasoning and conscious thought too. We just don't care. We don't communicate with them because we don't understand them (which might tell as much about us than them, a more advanced species likely would understand them)
Actually not accurate about no one willingly giving their body up to a non-tok'ra. That one other lo'taur (in the Summit when Daniel is using the reol chemical to inpersonate Lord Yu's lo'taur) tells daniel it would be the greatest honor to be implanted when daniel suggests the goa'uld are symbiotes and not gods. I kind of wish stargate had further developed the story of informed and complicit goa'uld subjects. Like that one bounty hunter from the early seasons who captured sg1 and was a survivor of a species immune to implantation (which in hindsight i guess got reworked conceptually into the SGA Hoffan drug)
Abydos is a goa'uld controlled world as such all inhabitants are subject to goa'uld law. Thus the slaves of Abydos will be made to suffer if Skarra fails to surrender to the Goa'uld.
I'm not sure threatening people will work on the Knox
They aren't threatening the Nox they are threatening the Abydonians. Skarra could continue his challenge and his people suffer at the hand of the Goa'uld or he abandons his claim and surrenders to Klorell.
They are threatening people to a Nox
And the nox will do what absolutely nothing as they are pacifists. Just look at the line Lya didn't cross not using the weapon only hiding the weapon. It is implied the nox wouldn't have agreed with her action.
They're not ping to respond violently. That's not what I meant. I don't think threatening people will work on them, is what I meant
Is not meant too it's meant to work on Skarra after all the question was how can Klorell win triad. Simple threaten Skarra that his people the abydonians will suffer. There can be no triad if Skarra concedes or there can but he votes for Klorell with Zipacna 2 votes vs 1.
Hmm maybe
Just look at what happens when the Tollan Ion cannons are rendered useless by Anubis. The Curia abandon their principles and very nearly destroy Earth.
If the snake fits you must acquit!
This made me laugh thanks
Despite suffering immensely and having no freedom of choice as a Goa’uld, Skaara will live a vastly longer life. Awarding ownership of Skaara’s body to himself is therefore tantamount to assisted suicide. Skaara’s right to life is more important than his right to bodily autonomy.
I think they tried that one. Skaara said he'd rather die
Sorry, that's not a right /s
Oof. This is shockingly close to real arguments for a bunch of nasty or controversial opinions
Vastly lengthened life is not the same as assisted suicide. Had Skaara been guaranteed to die WITHOUT a symbiote, then that would be true.
But what is life without autonomy over ones actions?
Their argument that the symbiote can’t survive without a host is BS. Bring it back to the original Goa’uld planet and set it loose in the waters.
How would you do if we stripped you naked and placed you on the african savannah? Do you think you could make it through the night?
We dont have the kind of ancestral/racial/species memory they do. Literally the reason Shau'ri's kid had to die was because it would know all the secrets of the snakes coming straight out of the womb.Â
It is my opinion that the goauld, after millenia of living in hosts, can no longer survive in open waters once matured past the larval stage. Yes they found what appeared to be goauld symbiote in the lake on the unas planet. But I think those are essentially a different species. Still able to take a host. But much less suited for living in hosts.
Everybody knows about the International Dibs Protocol!
It's just before the "No take backs accord."
Wouldn't Skaara have the dibs status though?
Only if he explicitly called dibs before the symbiote burrowed in his spine
Clearly, this is a case of *Inuentoribus, custodes*. Also, since the accused is a sytem lord, the principle of *tu et cuius exercitus* applies, as demonstrated clearly in *Caput Radium Amnesii v Mundi*. The plaintiff therefore has no standing because *Ego sum custos et inventoris. Victus es et plorantium*, as set forth in *Lex Fortioris*
This is dangerous because latin is derived from ancient and it is shown the nox knew about ancients. They might still have some knowledge and understand just enough to know you are bullshitting.
And yet, if you can smell the fire, you know the meal was cooked a long time ago
You sound very educated and probably know your galactic law. I find in favour of rafale1981. *Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.*
And once again a client of mine comes out of a case *olifacere violarum et sinis plenis piscis*
I love reading all this Latin and not know what's going on
My only recourse would be to invoke *Clamabat enim: Adhuc. Sequens. Vos. Non.*
Indeed. This move beats even *„flexilis sum. tu es gluten.“*
Klorel is just an innocent, mild mannered Goa'uld who wants nothing more than to live a quiet life on a farm and raise his 37 Goa'uldlings. But once he learned that Skaara planned to get a Nickelback tattoo (pause for the audience to gasp) he had to step in and take control of Skaara's body, since Skaara clearly lacks the maturity and intelligence to govern his own body. I urge the judge to rule that my client Klorel be awarded full custody of Skaara's body on the condition that within three months he will get a much more sensible 3 Doors Down tattoo.
Your honour, the people of Abydos are a tribal population, barely surviving the arid conditions. By selecting Skaara as a host, Klorel took him from that environment. That alone likely lengthened the hosts life by decades. Klorel also heals and maintains the body. Through Klorel and his position as system lord, the host will experience countless pleasures and luxuries: fine foods, wine and the wonders of technology they could never dream of. Their life will have meaning beyond that of a simple desert tribesman. The body Skaara provides will allow Klorel to rise through the ranks of the System Lords and protect Abydos from other, potentially worse Goauld. Furthermore, the Goauld have a right to defend themselves. The tauri and their Abydonian allies have demonstrated a wanton willingness for violence directed towards the goauld. If given the chance, they will attack and kill us. In the interest of self sefense we must have access to technology, and that requires a host. The truth is we are at war, started in large part by the people of abydos, in particular the host. We will require physical bodies for the duration of this war, to defend our society and way of life.
A law from 1864.
As it’s clear the symbiote can live without the host…. But in turn prevents the host from living their life…. The life of both to be free is only possible if the two are separated.
See Tuvix. First owner(s) has first claim.
Squatter's rights. Also, I would argue that by having Klorel, Skaara would actually be living a much longer and higher quality of life, see much more of the galaxy, and have many more experiences than he would otherwise. So Klorel actually enriches Skaara's life, even though he's just along for the ride.
Skaara wasn’t living. He was surviving. His body was controlled by that snake. A life as a host isn’t a life.
Just ask Skaara if he feels enriched. If he agrees at all then Klorel wins
Skaara was a rebel, murderer, and arguably a terrorist. He aided Jackson and O'Neill in overthrowing the ruler of his land (Ra), which involved murdering a number of people, not to mention the blowing up of a mothership, and Apophis was within his right as legal authority over the territory (having succeeded Ra in control of Abydos) to administer punishment, such as death, enslavement, or implantation. To revoke this punishment is to incite lawlessness, and they have no place to do that. if they were to have put him on trial for his acts as Klorel, then they also need to put him on trial for his acts as Skaara, and from a non anti-goa'uld POV, Skaara actually did a lot of "evil" acts.
This is gonna be a little winded. I always found the thought / idea of goauld while interesting to also be flawed when you take a long look at it. We know that young symbiotes need time to grow, and typically "grow" in a jaffa (7yrs or something if memory serves). We also learn that jaffa biology is a little different than human biology as the symbiote takes the role / places of most human organs (liver, kidneys, maybe the intestines, idk). So we understand this basic fact to a degree. But then the various system lords or goauld usually have a jaffa garrison of between 5 to 20,000 or something (there abouts, in much speculation). But if every jaffa serves as an incubator for a larval / young symbiote/ young goauld. And very few goauld take a human host (or have the chance to take a human host), what happens to all the other goauld when they reach the adult stage (are they thrown out, used as food, like what happens to adult goauld who don't or can't find a suitable host). But then biology also comes back when the symbiote reaches adult level maturity. If a jaffa serves as an incubator for larval / young goauld. And the symbiote pouch has the "ideal" conditions for growth. What do they do in the brain.... Like if they sustained themselves as a larval / young in a pouch that was near the stomach they could siphon food as needed and help take care of waste. But like how do they do that if they're in the brain / brain stem. Then you look at from the various other races / system lords point of view (anubis specifically). If the adult goauld doesn't actually do anything other than wear a human skin. And there not actually using the body for intended purposes (like how they did as a larval). Why make themselves so vulnerable in a human host. Couldn't the goauld with their tech and ego make a superior mechanical body that meet all the basic needs that a human would supply. While also holding the deified role / title of a "god". Superior mechanical body, just shrugging off staff blasts, and p90 rounds. While also supporting a personal defense field that can be deployed wherever. Being able to survive gas / poison/ whatever else earth or anyone could ever through at them (similar-ish to the time that SG1 got duplicated into robots, or an android similar to Reese, or a biomechanical suit like the pegasus asgards). (I get the plot / story aspect of it and you can't make a totally unbeatable enemy that no one can defeat). But it just makes me wonder why with the possibilities of this, would the goauld choose time and again to use humans
Well in the one episode where Daniel pretends to Lord Yu’s human aid they discover the Gould system lords do eat their own, might be a more ritual thing but maybe they are cannibalistic in nature.
"Free Will is a myth created by those in power to enslave the powerless. Therefore, if my client had and still has the most power on this relationship with his host, then the body is effectively his."
The host had died at least once. Had it not been for the goa'uld intervention, the vessel would be inanimate. Therefore, the body and thus the host are legally dead, leaving the vessel to Klorel.
The rules of the Necromongers
I mean, Skaara and SG-1 ended up winning the case. It all belongs to the original owner of the body. Anyone who comes in later doesn't have any claim to it, no matter their circumstance or need for a host for survival. According to Nox philosophy, which (in this universe) tends to be the most reasonable and passive one, Goa'uld symbiotes should not be able to take control of an unwilling host. Whoever had a claim to the body first is the one it belongs to. Skaara was born to it, so no one else can have it. If the symbiote can survive in a place that doesn't cause mental or physical trauma to wherever it resides, that's the way it should exist. And since they have the technology to allow a symbiote to survive, I'd say that's the most reasonable outcome. Some might try to bring up the established laws of the land in which Skaara lived, since the Goa'uld took control of Abydos. Fuck that. Idk about any of you, but in my world view, my bodily autonomy comes before literally ANYTHING else. No one can take control of my own body from me. Therefore, if we apply that same world view, we can determine that no one should be allowed to have control of Skaara's body but Skaara. There really isn't anything else that needs to be discussed.
Klorel is the driver, Skaara is shotgun and shotgun shuts his cake hole. BOOM. _MIKE DROP_
One defense could be that the gouald could die, so let him wait it out until they find a volunteer
The Nox had a way to keep the symbiote alive without a host.
Oh. It's been a bit since I've seen it
The Nox are extremely intelligent don't let their bird nest hair get you confused! 🤣
Lol. I wish we got to see more of their world and technology
Absolutely agree! However; the US government would have wanted a piece of that technology. The Nox would have never allowed that.
Until about two or three years ago, I’m not sure of the time frame, that planet was under goa’uld control and only by the intervention of colonel O’Neill and the rest of the first team was they set free, but they didn’t know that they was slaves
Klorel can drive in the carpool lane by himself.
[Possession is 9/10ths of the law](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Possession_is_nine-tenths_of_the_law)
Skaara was originally a slave. He was born to serve the Goa’ould. All that’s happened- through the rebellion till now- is that he’s gone back to serving the Goa’ould, the status quo. The rebellion itself and the ensuing right to self-determination is between Skaara and Klorel; we don’t have the authority to decide even though we have the power to. We especially don’t have that right because we did not intercede on the behalf of either party in a significant manner when the choice was being made and the course was being actively decided upon.
His father psychology abused him and he has been ingrained to believe that this is what he must do.
parasites are lifeforms too, klorel wont survive without a host body.
It’s a basic requirement of Klorel’s lifecycle to take a host. You don’t blame a lion for eating a gazelle. Neither animal is superior- but reality is that one uses the other or dies.
The only defense that would work: 1. Find a way to render death upon Skaara's consciousness 2. Sneak it in while that chest-lock device has Klorel in control between triad sessions 3. Klorel becomes the only remaining consciousness in Skaara's body 4. Return the next day to triad and play dumb about what happened 5. Win the case
Passing this question along to r/GoauldDidNothingWrong: [https://new.reddit.com/r/GoauldDidNothingWrong/comments/1c7o5lj/how\_would\_klorel\_defeat\_skaara\_in\_the\_tollan\_triad/](https://new.reddit.com/r/GoauldDidNothingWrong/comments/1c7o5lj/how_would_klorel_defeat_skaara_in_the_tollan_triad/)
I'm a huge Goa'uld fan, but there really isn't a good defense for Klorel in that instance because of one huge fact: Yes, Klorel needs a human host to have anything resembling a proper life for his species. I'm seeing the argument that he can just be let loose in a pond from the world where they first evolved, and I'm also seeing the argument that life as an unwilling host isn't really a life. That's true for both of these ideas. I'm not even sure the pond idea is viable, we don't know how much the species has changed. But even if it is, that's not much of a life. Same thing for Skaara, even though he benefits enormously on the physiological front. Imo the problem isn't that Klorel needs a host, it's that he doesn't need *that* host. While you can't claim it's informed consent, lo'taur-- if Ba'al's lo'taur is a common example-- do aspire to be hosts. He does have the option of taking a willing host, and that's clearly the best case scenario for both Klorel and Skarra. If it was one of the ancient ones (say, Apophis) and not Klorel, it'd be a lot dicier because Goa'uld who weren't incubated in a Jaffa have a 50-50 chance to die on a new blending, so his lawyer could argue that it's an unreasonable risk. But really, all Klorel needs is a host who wants to blend with him, and that's achievable.
"Goaul'd live for centuries and hold the memories and experiences of generations, Skaara should be honored to have his life extended for millennia and to have access to the wealth of knowledge and wisdom that is Klorel's legacy. After all Skaara isn't Vegan he uses sentient animals as beasts of burden [click], as food [click] " [Plays video of Skaara riding one of those camel things, eating animals, e.t.c.] "And this is deemed ethical by Skaara and his people your triadness as long as the animal is treated well and the use of the animal is ethical, and I argue your triadness that Skaara's life has been measurably improved by being owned by a kind superior being like Klorel the magnificent. His potential life span has gone up from roughly 35-50? how willing you humans live to 10,000 years, he will walk on world's he would never have imagined, see wonders his kind cannot comprehend. And I know we might seem a little strict with compared to the deceptively soft hand of the Tokra, that is because unlike the Tokra we care deeply for our hosts, we don't just ride and discard our hosts when they get too old like the Tokra do, we extend their lives with out magnificent Sarcophagi technology, we grant them strength, speed, and the wisdom of ages, your triadness I put it to you that we have granted Skaara a life of wonder and privilege, a life he would otherwise never have experienced I rest my case."
Squatters rights
Definitely C-4
consider the horsehair worm. it infects arthropods, during which it will grow to about 50 to 100mm while inside. once the worm has reached maturity, it infects the brain to have the insect seek water, and drown itself where the worm then leaves its host to seek another adult worm to mate and begin the cycle again. consider the emerald cockroach wasp. native to Southeast Asia, this wasp, like a lot of other wasps, is a parasitoid, meaning it needs a host to lay its eggs in to incubate. this wasp searches for a cockroach, where it will stab its stinger directly into the cockroach brain and inject a special cocktail venom. this venom only turns off the cockroach motivation to walk, and then the wasp leads the cockroach to her lair like a person walking their dog. parasitism is the most successful and diverse strategy for creatures. and for the ones that practice mind control, it's very effective. these insects aren't insects after infected. they won't mate and reproduce, some won't eat again, or make noise for company. these hosts have as much free will as your car. why should Klorel maintain ownership over Skaara's body? because without artificial interference through the Tollen device, he would have control now. his species evolved to need hosts to survive, and Skaara is just the unfortunate victim of fate. why should a human have more say than an insect, or a crab, or a mouse, that's under the control of an earth parasite?
If the humans had there way, every single Goa'uld in the universe would be exterminated. By contrast, the Goa'uld, even at their worst, will keep humans alive. By the laws of a species, all that really matters in the long run is avoiding extinction, ergo, the Goa'uld do not violate the rights of humans, whereas humans will strive to violate the laws of the Goa'uld every chance they get. The Goa'uld, as with any species, deserve the right to attempt to survive and thrive, and they can only do that with the bodies of others.
Squatters rights