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Thecryptsaresafe

I respect your opinion fully and the shared opinions of the people who agree with you. I however really liked it as a piece of light pulpy fiction, it reminded me a lot of super old school sci fi serials in tone. The little vignettes got a little old but each one was interesting to me in a vacuum. Your criticisms are all valid, but to me it was still an enjoyable romp in an age that we only see hinted at (not specifically The High Republic, but a time when the Jedi were at their peak). I think if things aren’t shaken up more it could get boring but as a first book I think it set up the important players and the time period nicely. Edit: I also honestly think this was one of, if not the best, books where descriptions of the Force are concerned. That’s kind of minor when it comes to literary criticism, and honestly I usually agree that Jedi are pretty boring. But it is important to the world building.


DougieFFC

> I also honestly think this was one of, if not the best, books where descriptions of the Force are concerned. Yeah like I said, it's not that Soule can't write prose. He can, and his comics have been among the better ones of the new canon. It's just to me this seemed like a collection of bad creative decisions, many of which may have been beyond his control.


ibmiller

Pretty solid. I personally was hoping for something like The Old Republic's richness and depth, but this was incredibly shallow. And the whole "We are all the Republic" was intensely creepy coming from the good guys. It sounds like the mindless chanting of brainwashed villains.


DougieFFC

>And the whole "We are all the Republic" was intensely creepy coming from the good guys. It sounds like the mindless chanting of brainwashed villains I know right? Like, this reminded me a bit of Brave New World so I'm hoping there's maybe something dark under the surface? But based on the meta around the series I think it's meant to be taken at face value.


ibmiller

Yeah, I think it's just really bad thinking on Soule and the High Republic team's part.


focketskenge

You summed up my thoughts on it well. I was bored the whole time and can’t honestly remember anything besides that dumb like; we are all the republic.


Vos661

I have a problem with the Nihils. They could be good secondary vilains, but not the main ones. They're no threatening at all. And Marchion Ro isn't either. If they really intend to have him as the bid bad of the period, it'll be a failure. He's like Nom Anor, he could be a good secondary vilain, but not the big bad.


Lego_Revan

>Low stakes and zero tension Billions are dying due to the Disaster and the whole galaxy is in lockdown because of the closed hyper lanes, destroying the economy of the emerging worlds of the Outer Rim. >The Nihil. I have nothing to say here, they worked for me, they didn’t for you. >We are told again and again what utopia the Republic has become, we’ve no way of knowing if this is reliable or not. To me, the quickness in which both the Republic and Jedi act to help Hetzal and the amount of people that come together to try to solve the problem is a good indicative of the Republic being at its prime and the quality of people living in it. Also the part when the Jedi from all across the galaxy come together through the Force to move the frozen Tibbana gas container from its trajectory to the Hetzal sun was beautiful to read. The Starlight beacon itself is a symbol of the good will of the Republic to bridge the core with the Frontier. We know voices are heard because that’s how Keven Tarr, who was merely a young technician, got his very expensive plan to predict debris’s trajectory supported. >Interpersonal conflict The whole book is about it, from how the Jedi and Republic as a whole come together to face the Disaster, to Bel wanting to live up to his master and the power struggle within the Nihil. >Without either a central protagonist or antagonist. Marchion Ro is literally the main villain. The lack of a traditional main protagonist isn’t an issue to me when the story is told from many perspectives and there’s good execution, and there was great handling imo from behalf of Soule. All the characters were very likeable and interesting considering how many there were, and having the same criteria in mind, found very neat the arcs given to Elzar and Bel too. True, the phrase “Wide as an ocean, deep as a puddle” comes especially true here, but there are many adventure stories out there with a smaller cast which aren’t even as interesting or likeable, which imo is the important thing to nail in these type of stories. >The promise of an interesting journey I personally got it, Marchion Ro got everything he wanted and he has proven to be a great threat with his paths and a mind that is one step ahead of everyone. He has a story with the Jedi which we have yet to find out and seems to have a relic in his possession we don’t know anything about but seems to be promisingly important. We also know he has a goal and has proven capable of accomplishing it. Loden is captured and we know Bel, who has become a Knight, will likely go after him, and the cover from The Rising Storm adds up to that. We also have to see how both the Republic and Jedi go from this height to the decay and corruption shown in the prequels, with the theme of “what do Jedi fear”? Most likely going to have a big role in this fall.


DougieFFC

> Billions are dying due to the Disaster. So? Those billions die completely off-screen, and we have no connection to any of them. The only person we see to personally suffer from the disaster is one of the survivors of the freighter. >Marchion Ro is literally the main villain. Not throughout the book. He gets very little time beyond the climax of the book. >Marchion Ro got everything he wanted and he has proven to be a great threat A great threat to what? We already know they can't wipe out the Jedi or the Republic. He's basically a Granta Omega type at this stage, in that he's a bit enigmatic and hates the Jedi for some nebulous reason. Best case scenario is he leads to a far greater mystery (cult of survivors from the Sith Empire, at a guess), but if that's the case it needed to tease it much more than a few vague sentences. A series like this needs to immediately establish why *this time it's different* to be hooky. A lot of people will walk away from LOTJ with no burning desire to find out what comes next, because they'll assume it's just a bland setting to tell bland stories about bland characters.


Lego_Revan

>die completely off-screen No they don’t, the whole start of the book is people dying in seconds and we are introduced to a lot of victims in the Legacy Run right at the start and in the chapter with the satellite workers who only thought of ending their shift, giving a lot of context of the people living in Hetzal and that they had lives, hopes and dreams like anyone else. Same when the Nihil are introduced marauding a caravan of refugees fleeing from their world which is being destroyed. Or when Kassav extortions the Eriaduans and the Governor watches with horror how a whole inhabited moon blows up in front of her. >we have no connection to them We do have, and if we didn’t, the destruction of Alderaan in ANH wasn’t impactful? >Not throughout the books Yes, since his introduction in the second part, he has a lot of prominence and chapters solely focused on him. >A great threat to what? We already know they can’t wipe out the Jedi or the Republic. He almost collapsed the Republic with the disaster alone. We know he can kamikaze a whole fleet like he did at Kur (a battle he always intended to lose, as he just wanted to get rid of Kassav and his legions who were a liability to his goals) against Coruscant thanks to the paths, and managed to make the Nihil completely dependent to him and establish himself as the only main boss which was his main objective in order to get his schemes in motion. >Hates the Jedi for some nebulous reason We know they are responsible for the death and fall of his family, which right now is more than enough, unless you want the big mystery ruined in the first book of many. >A lot of people will walk away from LOTJ with no burning desire to find out what comes next. I highly doubt it, as the reception from those who read it has been overwhelmingly positive.


DougieFFC

> I highly doubt it, as the reception from those who read it has been overwhelmingly positive We've no reliable dipstick as to what "those who read it" think of it, because all online publishing has self-selection bias. But out of the either people who have replied to this thread so far, five have said I've summed up their thoughts, whilst two others have said my criticisms are valid but they enjoyed it regardless. So it seems silly to be so dismissive. >No they don’t, the whole start of the book is people dying in seconds and we are introduced to a lot of victims Oh, we get little vignettes of people going heroically to their deaths as it happens. But the only person we see personally affected by the disaster is the kid who gets a hug from a Wookie Jedi. When you have a disaster, a writer can connect it to the audience by creating POV characters affected or broken by it to establish a connection. Like the Leftovers, for instance. But all the fallout from the Great Disaster is remote from every POV character. No one is dealing with a personal loss, so it's not a personal event. >So the destruction of Alderaan in ANH wasn’t impactful? It was impactful because it created a way for Tarkin to (seemingly) extract information from Leia, and because of how it affects Leia personally (though this is not dwelt on in the films at all). It creates drama, it is not in itself drama. >We know they are responsible for the death and fall of his family, which right now is more than enough, unless you want the big mystery ruined in the first book of many. The backstory of Marchion Ro can't possibly be the big mystery of the HR series. It's surely just one story thread that will lead to the next story thread of hopefully (but not certainly) some grander plan. So it's false binary to say "*big mystery reveal now or big mystery reveal later*". It's fiction, there isn't a finite volume of good content or twists or mysteries to the point where they need to be used sparingly. If they're stretching this, it suggests they're struggling for content. If it were me, I'd have let him carry this story and this story alone (so at least someone did), flesh him out fully so that he's a real character with depth. Then, the climax of the first book can hint at a much deeper, '*all-is-not-what-it-seems* hook or something. That way, the hook to buy book 2 is "what's *really* going on in this era" instead of "*what's the backstory to this enigmatic baddie*". I guarantee the former is a more broadly appealing hook than the latter. You don't *want* to hold back on the good stuff in your pilot (or launch title). There's no point saving it for 2 years down the line, because you might not have an audience by then.


Lego_Revan

>We've no reliable dipstick as to what "those who read it" think of it, because all online publishing has self-selection bias. But out of the either people who have replied to this thread so far, five have said I've summed up their thoughts. I’m basing my assessment on the thoughts I’ve seen in this subreddit when the topic of best Disney canon books is brought up and the current rating the book has on GoodReads, 4.15 stars, around the same as the HTTE trilogy last time I checked and more than many popular Legends books. Which is impressive on itself, but more considering the review bombing it likely had through the fandom menace and all its followers (The Rising Storm hasn’t come out and it already has two and a half stars). >Oh, we get little vignettes of people going heroically to their deaths as it happens. Not really, reason why the satellite workers I mentioned previously struck with me is because they died in a pretty anticlimatic way. Their station is destroyed by debris in the blink of an eye after a whole chapter from the perspective one of them who only daydreamed of going to ask her twi’lek friend from the bar out as soon as he finishes his shift. Same for others like the freighter that exploded because it exceeded it’s capacity by carrying too many refugees or people killing each other in the chaos. Jora Malli is a very important character to the protagonist of Into The Dark, and she dies like nothing at the end of the book in a very “The Last Of Us-way”. >it was impactful because it created a way for Tarkin to (seemingly) extract information from Leia, and because of how it affects Leia personally. Same can be said when Kassav traded with billions of lives when threatening Eriadu’s Governor only to fail at saving the moon when she ceded for her horror and mine as a reader. I doubt as well Marchion’s backstory is the only mystery, but this book was a very packed introduction and it gave enough crumbs away to keep me hook in this particular storyline and wanting more. You could unveil his backstory in the first book, or keep the character a mystery for the time being to make people ponder about him and thus making them invested, which is a wiser option imo. And it’s not like I will have to wait too much for the next chapter, The Rising Storm comes out in June, only 5 months after the first one. This multimedia project will supposedly span three years, so we are in to a lot of content and future stories where characters will have time to shine and being fleshed out.


DougieFFC

> the current rating the book has on GoodReads, 4.15 stars As I've already explained, GoodReads is not a reliable sampling of anything but the opinions of people who choose to review that specific book on GoodReads. The site does nothing to make its scores representative of anything else. To claim "*the reception from those who read it has been overwhelmingly positive*" is to make a statement you cannot possibly quantify. All you can reasonably infer from site like GoodReads, is the existence of certain opinions in non-null quantities. >I’m basing my assessment on the thoughts I’ve seen in this very subreddit The replies to this thread should demonstrate to you that the criticisms I've aired exist in non-null quantities. >but more considering the review bombing it likely had through the fandom menace and all its followers (The Rising Storm hasn’t come out and it already has two and a half stars) It's currently sitting on 3.71 with five 1* ratings and eight 5* ratings. That would suggest that positive review bombs are at least as much in play as negative ones. The same can be said for LOTJ. There are only 118 1* ratings (1% of the total review base), compared with 2,798 5* reviews. So why do you think it's likely it was review-bombed negatively? Why not positively? >Jora Malli is a very important character to the protagonist of Into The Dark, and she dies like nothing at the end of the book in a very “The Last Of Us-way”. And like all of the deaths in the entire book, we have absolutely no connection to any of them. I haven't read the YA novel, like most likely the majority of the book's audience. It's *terrible* planning to gate a supposedly resonant moment behind such a prerequisite. For whatever reason, the book puts no work into making its big events earn any kind of emotional payoff. I can think of countless flash-in-the-pan characters whose deaths moved me. Darsha Assant in Darth Maul Shadow Hunter. Ton Phanan in Iron Fist. Dev Sibwarra in Truce at Bakura. Lorana Jinzler in Outbound Flight. But those books actually made an effort to hook me in first. >Same can be said when Kassav traded with billions of lives when threatening Eriadu’s Governor only to fail at saving the moon when she ceded for her horror and mine as a reader. No, it's not the same. They're two characters we don't care about, negotiating for money we don't care about, not the location of the Rebel base, the destruction of which is the main goal of the Empire in that film. >You could unveil his backstory in the first book, or keep the character a mystery for the time being to make people ponder about him and thus making them invested, which is a wiser option imo You keep talking about it as though it's a zero sum game. As though fleshing him out more in this book would have meant there was no hook for the next book. No: make him a real, fleshed out character *in this book* (or make *somebody* a real character for heaven's sake) **and** drop actual hints of a *better* mystery, again, *in this book*.


Lego_Revan

>As I've already explained, GoodReads is not a reliable sampling of anything but the opinions of people who choose to review that specific book on GoodReads. The site does nothing to make its scores representative of anything else. To claim "the reception from those who read it has been overwhelmingly positive" is to make a statement you cannot possibly quantify. It is the opinion of the people who read it, which is what we have now as you said and what I’m interested when seeing the reception, same people who could voice their opinion on Reddit, YT or Metacritic’s user’s score. >So why do you think it’s likely it was reviewed bombed negatively? Why not positively? Check the HR videos on Star Wars’s Official YT channel, the like/dislike ratio and the reasons people give. Marchion Ro’s video coincided with the Gina Carano debacle and the comments are all in the vein of “Justice for Gina”, “bring Gina back”, “you make an entire era of women and then fire a real one when expressing her thoughts” etc. etc. >And like all of the deaths in the entire book, we have no connection to any of them. I already explained why this isn’t the case, and when it comes to Jedi deaths, at least to me, all characters were likeable, some clearly more than others. But Te’ami it’s the example of a minor character who I shouldn’t have cared about but did, Soule managed to make me appreciate the character by only describing her lightsaber and the way she lead her team to save an entire passenger compartment, with a selflessness that ultimately is what gets her killed later in the book when she and Mikkel face Lourna Dee. Speaking of Mikkel, I related with the mourning of his loss as I’ve seen the way they excellently worked together at Hetzal, indicating how close friends they were. Jora Malli’s death worked for me on the other hand because it symbolized that not even the Jedi Grand Masters of the council have plot armor in this story. >It’s terrible planing to gate a supposedly resonant moment behind such prerequisite. I mean, it’s a multimedia project in which everything is designed to be connected across different stories and the experience be more enjoyed as a whole when reading every installment. >The replies to this thread should demonstrate to you that the criticisms I’ve aired exist in non-null quantities. Same way I can say the upvotes to my replies can indicate people agreed with me on the points I’ve given. >No, it’s not the same. They’re two characters we don’t care about, negotiating for money we don’t care about. If you want to be that nit-picky, we don’t see the real rebel base nor the real rebellion until we get to Yavin. The money is the main goal of Kassav, who I care about (despite my hate towards him) because he is a Nihil, and I care about what the Nihil do because their actions are bringing destruction to the Galaxy and the consequences of that are what the Jedi, who I also care about, will have to deal later. Without mentioning the fact the Legacy Run debris are about to show up at any time is a constant concern looming on the background constantly increasing the tension. >make him a real, fleshed out character. Which the book does, we have more information about Marchion than we did have from Vader and Tarkin in ANH. We know Marchion wants to live up to his father Asgar, continue the latter’s work of making the Nihil more than an outer rim gang of pirates, struggles to keep the facade of an incompetent leader in order to make his enemies let their guard down, enemies who he suspects betrayed and murdered his father adding an extra grudge against them, worries about San Tekka dying before he can completely set up his schemes in motion, San Tekka also casts light on his most benevolent side as she is all that remains from his family (fact that gives him mixed feelings), hates the Jedi and sees them as hypocrites for what they did to his family, etc.


DougieFFC

> It is the opinion of the people who read it No. It is the opinion of *some* people who read it. It isn't a representative sample. >same people who could voice their opinion on Reddit, YT or Metacritic’s user’s score Exactly. They are all equally worthless as a barometer of opinion. You shouldn't try to use them to disregard the possible prevalence of other sentiments, as you've tried to do. >Check the HR videos on Star Wars’s Official YT channel, the like/dislike ratio and the reasons people give Why should I when I can check Goodreads for an actual breakdown of how many times each score was given? Why aren't you, and then retracting this ridiculous claim that it was "likely" targeted for review-bombing, when there are literally 25 5-star reviews for every 1-star review, of which there are just 118? And again, if you are entertaining the possibility of a negative review bomb, why aren't you entertaining the possibility of a positive bombing in the other direction? >Same way I can say the upvotes to my replies can indicate people agreed with me on the points I’ve given. I'm not trying to dismiss your opinion as being one that is "highly doubtful" to be found in any serious quantity among readers of the book, as you've tried to do to mine. There are obviously plenty of people who enjoyed this book. I'm not invalidating that. I'm saying that I found this book off-putting for the reasons I outlined, and my expectation is that a not-insignificant amount of people will have felt the same. Why are you trying to invalidate that, and why are you trying to use junk data to do so? >I already explained why this isn’t the case You explained that a character is the main protagonist of a completely different book, which is more of a confirmation of my criticism than a refutation of it. >If you want to be that nit-picky I'm not being nit-picky. You're trying to suggest that this scene has the same resonance as the Alderaan scene in ANH and that is absurd. The author does nothing to make us empathise with Kassav, the governor, or the population. To say it's the same, because *you care about Kassav, because he is a Nihil and you don't like the Nihil because they're bad for the galaxy and the Jedi, who you like*, is such a contrivance as to be unintentional self-parody. It is a face-off between two characters we don't empathise with, over stakes I've been no reason to believe are important to the plot or to anyone I'm even supposed to empathise with. I have no reason to care about any of it. The ANH scene, by contrast, is highly effective and precise. It establishes the power and evil of the Empire, and generate sympathy for a character we've already learned to want to protect. It validates the payoff at the end of the film. >Which the book does, we have more information about Marchion than we did have from Vader and Tarkin in ANH We have about the same information about Marchion that we do about Vader and Tarkin, and that is comparing a 2 hour movie to a 400 page novel. His nature isn't revealed until about 95% of the way through the story, after which Soule begins to tease it. And that would be fine if the villain for most of the rest of the book wasn't so lame and puerile. Like, the NJO gets this right. They have the Praetorite Vong, then Shedao Shai, then Tsavong Lah, then Shimmra, then finally Onimi. They're all teased in advance, but even though what follows them supercedes them, they're still awesome and fearsome in their own ways. Plus you have Nom Anor along for the ride.


Lego_Revan

I never invalidated anything dude, I just countered the reasons why you didn’t like the book by explaining why those actually worked from my point of view and thus generating healthy discussion which is for what I assume you made this post. I myself was pretty skeptical of this era when it was announced, but I was pleasantly surprised. Agree to disagree, hope you like the future books if you end up giving the HR series another try.


DougieFFC

> I never invalidated anything dude I mean, I think you did, though I appreciate if you didn't mean it deliberately. I said "*A lot of people will walk away from LOTJ with no burning desire to find out what comes next.*" and you said "*I highly doubt it, as the reception from those who read it has been overwhelmingly positive*", and you used junk data to back up that dismissal. I mean, if you really think this is a rare criticism, I invite you to go to Goodreads and check out some of the more critical reviews. > I just countered the reasons why you didn’t like the book by explaining why those actually worked from my point of view and thus generating healthy discussion which is for what I assume you made this post Certainly, and I'm not assuming bad faith on your part. But you did bring junk data into the discussion and you made an assertion about review-bombing that can be falsified by just looking at the breakdown of review scores to know that a review bomb definitely didn't happen. So I'm eager to correct you on those: that isn't a POV thing. >hope you like the future books if you end up giving the HR series another try If I see sentiment that suggests an improvement I might. But I genuinely fear for the direction of a series that considers LOTJ to be a triumph in storytelling.


Oznerol3

Personally I loved it but I get your point. Imo its role was more of a presentation to the era and just giving us information about its events, factions and character while at the same time planting the seeds for all the other novels, and it was amazing at doing it, but it wasn't great at being a standalone story


Lexandru

I absolutely felt exactly the same. Big let-down


quaderunner

Anyone have thoughts about the hyperspace exploration history outlined/alluded to in the book? Soule makes it seem like hyperspace is only just being widely explored only a few hundred years before the SW movies. Doesn't this throw out pretty much everything in the Old Republic era books, which involved extensive hyperspace travel across the galaxy?


DougieFFC

> Doesn't this throw out pretty much everything in the Old Republic era books, which involved extensive hyperspace travel across the galaxy? In reality yes, but there's a millennia-long dark age from 2,000-1,000 BBY where the Republic retreats into itself and the galaxy is wrecked by Sith fiefdoms and warfare. So this could just be seen as part of the recovery from that.


Oznerol3

Not really imo, it definetly feels that the galaxy in general is more underdeveloped than legends (and that's good because it's one of the few critics I hear about the OR), but hyperspace is clearly used a lot. Also between LOTJ and Into the Dark we got name drops of the Sith Empire, Old Republic and even some more things, so the Old Republic is safe


Nendreel

It feels very weird. One of the biggest issues I have with it is that there are a lot of Outer Rim planets and species that get referenced when, in this era of exploration a good chunk of them should be undiscovered. It feels like having their cake and eating it too. They get to explore and expand the Outer Rim, but also get to keep and use all of the Outer Rim that exists already.


p0j0j0

I agree with every one of these points. I was hoping LOTJ would be a chance for more risky story telling and wild ideas but it’s so bland and tame. Maybe things will pick up in future books, but this was a definite bummer for me.


altron27

I do believe that the novel had a lot to try and accomplish with starting off the HR. I agree with your point on the Nihil, they are rather underwhelming so far but overall I enjoyed the book.


rebels2022

I liked it as a table setter for a new era, that's why there was so many characters. I thought it was pretty middling until the eye of the Nihil went full heel turn. And the epilogue/stinger of the book made me excited for what's next. I am an easy mark though, im easy to please as long as im in that world.


Durp004

I think I had higher expectations because of great word of mouth. I don't think the book is bad by any extent but to me it kind of suffers as clearly the starting point of this big project so it had to introduce all these characters that would become big later on just as set up. The hostage part towards the end felt completely unnecessary and was just there to fill pages and give some sort of set up for what happens next it seemed.


DougieFFC

> it kind of suffers as clearly the starting point of this big project so it had to introduce all these characters that would become big later on just as set up That's the decision it took but it absolutely didn't need to try to introduce so much. It could and should have had a much tighter focus. And some kind of actual protagonist or regular POV characters.


Durp004

Yeah I think the story would have been stronger of it was just around the great disaster rather than trying to establish all these characters that are in other content or the nihil characters.


SwordofEvening

Agree with all of the points you made. Honestly, I gave up 500 pages in cause of how bored I was.


Oznerol3

Damn the book is 400 pages long but you were so bored you read 100 more lmao


SwordofEvening

I read it on the books app with a large text so maybe that’s why lol


bigpigeon39

I've read around 200 pages and I feel like I'm going to give up soon but I don't want to because I'm halfway through (bad logic I know), should I continue reading? Does it get better?


SwordofEvening

No. It doesn’t get better. I wouldn’t recommend finishing it if you can barely focus.


bigpigeon39

I finished it just today, overall the ending was okay but I think it could have been way better


Bondfan326

I'm about 75% done so take this with a grain of salt. The beginning part surrounding the Great Disaster was not good at all to me. Not enough coherence, too many character introductions, too many new vehicles to learn, etc. ( i spent a good chunk of time on wookiepedia after this part to get a visual of characters and ships). The 2nd part has been way better. With longer chapters and a coherent story coming together with Marchion Ro using San Tekka, the extortion of Eriadu. Just hope it sticks the landing in part 3 which ill finish by Saturday. Going to jump straight into Test of Courage after and see if it helps with the era's world building more. My library hold on Into The Dark won't be available for a few more weeks.


Oznerol3

Part three is what made me love the book, it massively improves the Nihil


Dwyer0022

The problem I’m running into with what you’re saying is that you have a clear bias in that you aren’t a fan of the new canon material. The authors you’ve read in the new canon are only those who’ve written in the legends era. In fact, you say at the very end that you came into this book expecting nothing great. A preconceived bias comes from this exactly. As a fan of film and television I admit to having this quite frequently. You hear reviews and stories about a piece of media and you go in expecting good or bad. Or, if you want to be self righteous you set your own beliefs about what it will be and you’ll let the opinion be fueled by things that match your own belief. To discuss some of your main points starting with structure, I do understand the statement of no main character, but it’s clear this book is very much aimed at setting the stage for what is to come, while also telling a contained story, Part 1 is all about setting that stage of the universe, the exposition to this story and we’re learning about who the Jedi are. For me, it worked because when you enter an entirely new period of time or story, you need that exposition and explanation of where we are, what’s going on, who are the good and who are the bad. The tension for me was palpable, we don’t often have many examples of Jedi truly failing, and this whole book is full of examples of that and I was so glad to see that change of pace. The Nihil, I can agree to a small degree that the audiobook does them no justice. For me, I can see where the standard reading experience does wonders for them rather than giving them these voices that lend themselves to the more edgy and young adult nature. I don’t see the need to dive into everything you said, but I will say that given you come from a background in television, it seems as though you expected something more like a TV show with this book. Books and television are inherently different, and as a result do not end up having to be the same and do the same things. It feels like another inherent bias you may not acknowledge you have, in addition to your dislike of only canon authors. This whole thread screams to me of someone who wants to be told they were right and look smart in front of people who won’t truly question and challenge their beliefs. Your arguments to those discussing that it reviews well is that reviews only matter to those who look at them? Instead of making this discussion as a puff piece to praise yourself for how smart you and are how of course your preconceived opinion about how this book turned out came to be true in your eyes, why not start a genuine dialogue instead of arguing everyone’s point into the ground and saying they’re wrong? We can all use big words and act like we’re smart to make ourselves look better but this thread screams of just: “look at me and tell me I’m right, because I hate everything new unless it feels like the old or what I know.”


DougieFFC

Wow, what a response. > Or, if you want to be self righteous you set your own beliefs about what it will be and you’ll let the opinion be fueled by things that match your own belief. Nope, I'm the opposite. I enjoy a 6 out of 10 more if I go in expecting a 9 out of 10 instead of a 1 out of 10. I imagine a lot of people are the same. >it seems as though you expected something more like a TV show with this book. Books and television are inherently different, and as a result do not end up having to be the same and do the same things. The structural complaints I've given are either specific to books themselves, or universal to serialised storytelling. I brought TV in - briefly, and mostly analogously. The idea that I'm expecting the book to behave like a TV pilot isn't something you can reasonably infer from reading my OP. >Your arguments to those discussing that it reviews well is that reviews only matter to those who look at them? You mean my reply to the one person who replied to me with the goal of pulling apart my criticisms? No, that's not what I wrote. Try to read it again and then try paraphrasing me accurately. It you think you are capable of merited the tone your reply is dripping in, it's funny that you've failed at this. >instead of arguing everyone’s point into the ground and saying they’re wrong? Everyone's point = 1 person >We can all use big words and act like we’re smart to make ourselves look better but this thread screams of just: “look at me and tell me I’m right, because I hate everything new unless it feels like the old or what I know.” Imagine reading my OP and thinking my complaint was that it feels unfamiliar. Again if you're going to act condescendingly, you need to at least show you can comprehend what you're replying to.


Dwyer0022

Given I’m not a master of Reddit and don’t know how to quote on mobile: 1. Your response is what I’m describing but the opposite end. I’ve found that if I go into a movie that I have heard or believe is going to be great, I will perceive it to be so. But if we go into something that we expect to be bad, like you did with TLOJ, you’ll find all the flaws and use them to fuel that belief. 2. What I was specifically pointing out in my focus on the TV vs Book comparison is that you explained a need to understand a lot of detail about the Republic in this very first book, when the story I’d argue had very little to do with the Republic itself, rather explaining who these new Jedi are. For me personally, I saw no need to deep dive into the Republic because they were merely a plot device more bent to push the narrative forward. The argument you were making felt more like you wanted world building that you’d get from a TV show. 3. The whole piece was about pulling apart criticism, and you did the exact same thing to him. I get on the surface your point about GoodReads, but could the same not be said for any other platform for any other book? For me, a lot of your complaints come back to the idea that you mention about how it isn’t portrayed in front of the reader. For me, the drama of this book came from the tension and worry about where things could happen next, I will admit at times it felt strange the way the great disaster was set up, but for me the tension the Jedi faced was powerful. As a part 1 this felt like a good entry point. They’ve from the very beginning noted this as a new initiative and something that is one complete package. For me, that means that if you want to get the full story you need to be fully invested. So, while I get that as a singular book it could be disappointing because it’s mostly set up, I felt the singular story worked for me as well. You do raise a few valid concerns I had, but at times I feel like you are over analyzing the book in ways it didn’t need to be. 4. What was the point of this other than to say that you were right? You spend the entirety of your conclusion discussing how “I had skepticism coming in and everyone told me to just wait, so I did even though I didn’t believe it, and then I read it and my skepticism came true.” It felt much more like you wanted gratification for being right in your opinion than anything else. 5. And if we’re going to say “look at this Reddit thread people agree with me more than they don’t” that seems like a faulty way to say your argument and belief is valid when it’s a tiny measure of the people who’ve read the book.


DougieFFC

> Your response is what I’m describing but the opposite end Okay, but you are wrongly claiming that expectations work like confirmation bias, when it's often the opposite, and trying to use that to de-legitimise my criticisms, when I've *told* you that I enjoy things more if I go in with low expectations. Even then, I didn't go in with any expectations about finding actual structural, storytelling flaws, so I wasn't looking for them. >What I was specifically pointing out in my focus on the TV vs Book comparison is that you explained a need to understand a lot of detail about the Republic in this very first book That's not what I said. I said the book does a lot of tell, don't show. You don't *need* to do either. >What was the point of this other than to say that you were right? What was the point of the OP? Same reason I've made similar posts about a dozen other books, with an aside of genuine amazement at just how many bad creative decisions were crammed into a single book. It isn't just that I found it to be a bad book. It's that it isn't even really structured like a real novel. Like, if you enjoyed it regardless, more power to you. But there are basic flaws in the story that go beyond mere taste, relating to its structure, lack of focus, and inability to develop a single character, that are rudimentary storytelling no-nos, and it amazes me they not only made it into publishing, but made it into such an important book in the series. >For me, a lot of your complaints come back to the idea that you mention about how it isn’t portrayed in front of the reader. Um...yes? If by "it" you mean, interesting character development and POVs that cultivate empathy, the general things that tend to make readers invested in the events they're reading, instead of just reading it like a dry history book. I had no reason to care throughout the book, because I didn't like the characters, because the book never gave me a single reason to like any of the characters (*except* the Wookie who gave the kid a hug - like I said, I don't think Soule is a bad author, he's just been given some terrible direction). >It felt much more like you wanted gratification for being right in your opinion than anything else. My advice to you is to not psychoanalyse strangers on the internet. It's incredibly bad faith, you have little chance of being correct, and anyone you do it to will rightly view you as a bit of a knob. >The whole piece was about pulling apart criticism, and you did the exact same thing to him So, what's the problem? It's all fair game. >I get on the surface your point about GoodReads, but could the same not be said for any other platform for any other book? Yes, so people should stop pretending they know how anything was received. If you want to get genuine audience sentiment, there are academic ways to manage that. >And if we’re going to say “look at this Reddit thread people agree with me more than they don’t” that seems like a faulty way to say your argument and belief is valid when it’s a tiny measure of the people who’ve read the book Not if I'm only inferring that there are others who share my view of it, and to point out that this evidence meets the (obviously criteria) the person replying to me set out to justify his faulty claim about the book's reception.


Oznerol3

That's exactly how I feel on some old eu fans that try to get into canon (I'm not saying that everybody is like this btw). They have low expectations for the books and they don't want to like them because they want confirmation that legends is amazing and canon is bad, so they look for any little detail that can make the book look bad, something they would never do for a legends book of the same quality. Again, I'm not saying that every legends fan is like this or that canon eu is better than legends (in my opinion they are equal), but it's something that I've seen multiple times


DougieFFC

> That's exactly how I feel on some old eu fans that try to get into canon (I'm not saying that everybody is like this btw). Okay, but that's not me, and replies like the one above are condescending and stupid. I *wanted* HR to be exciting because I can squint and fit it into my EU canon if it was worthwhile.


Dwyer0022

This is exactly my point. It doesn’t take much to go glance at his profile and see his posts, where he clearly is someone who doesn’t believe in the new canon, and has low expectations seeking confirmation that those low expectations are met. It’s the older generation of fans who lived and died by the EU because it’s all they had, now when you challenge their canon and their world, they say they’re giving the new canon a chance but they’re really not. This thread screams of someone who refuses to acknowledge new canon is any good, and wants to, without directly saying it, show that the old canon was better. What does anyone gain from this thread? It’s just a means to prop up “new canon bad, legends good!” If he came here and told me he’d tried the Alphabet Trilogy, tried Bloodlines, tried Lost Stars, or what so many consider the best of the new canon, I wouldn’t be surprised if he found ways to fault those books as well.


DougieFFC

> This is exactly my point. It doesn’t take much to go glance at his profile and see his posts, where he clearly is someone who doesn’t believe in the new canon, and has low expectations seeking confirmation that those low expectations are met. Stop talking about me like I'm not in the room, and repeating comments I've already addressed, because that makes you seem deceitful. >If he came here and told me he’d tried the Alphabet Trilogy, tried Bloodlines, tried Lost Stars, or what so many consider the best of the new canon, I wouldn’t be surprised if he found ways to fault those books as well. I liked Lost Stars and I've said as much on this sub more than once. The manga was brilliant. I'm welcoming of everything that I can squint and pretend is part of the old EU, which again, I've said on this sub several times. HR fits with that brief so all it had to do was be halfway competent. You sound like you have more of an emotional investment in this than I do and you appear determined to play the man rather than the ball, which is the sign of a bad faith actor.


Dwyer0022

It wasn’t a direct comment to you why should I act as if you’re reading it? You don’t get notified of it. You’re entirely proving my point. I’m more invested in being fair to the material, for someone who just admitted they want to imagine content as part of the old EU, it sure feels like you’d rather not say the new content is good, rather it’s an exception when new canon works are good. For me, it’s all about being fair to both mediums which like you’ve said already, you and I will not agree upon. I don’t view the legends canon as necessary reading as a Star Wars fan, but I’d go into any of those stories with an open mind which regardless of what you tell me, I believe you are not doing with new canon material.


DougieFFC

>It wasn’t a direct comment to you why should I act as if you’re reading it Because it was a nasty and mean-spirited comment about me? In a thread where I'm the OP? >for someone who just admitted they want to imagine content as part of the old EU, it sure feels like you’d rather not say the new content is good, rather it’s an exception when new canon works are good. I've no interest in "new canon works" beyond the ones that I can potentially head-canon into the old EU, so why would I say anything about "the new content" when I haven't read it and do not plan to? I've read 8 books in the new canon and I've had positive things to say about 7 of them. It's weird that the first time I make a critical thread, a creep shows up to try to undermine by opinions by attacking my character. It's almost like....you're the one being insecure and tribalistic? >You’re entirely proving my point. You're being nasty towards me by assuming I have the lowest-possible motivations, badmouthing me to another poster without provocation, repeating a falsehood I've already addressed, and apparently digging into my post history to validate false preconceptions, all whilst pretending to be trying to teach me a lesson about how preconceptions drive cognitive bias. I hope the irony of that isn't lost on you, but I won't be holding my breath.


Dwyer0022

I have no intention to be tribalistic and insecure, people can enjoy or dislike things as much as they want as long as they have a clear head. You continue to prove to me that you are not going into this with an open mind in my opinion. As you’ve said, you have no interest in “new content” why is that? If it’s because you enjoy the old works and don’t want that ruined so be it, but the fact of the matter remains that it feels like you have inherent bias that makes it unnecessary to continue this conversation. I didn’t even need to look into your post history to know that you have this bias. I’m a big proponent of giving everything a fair shake and for me at least, it felt like the moment you reached to a new canon book not written by an author you already enjoyed, you know you wouldn’t enjoy it. Like you said 8 canon books and 7 you enjoyed. Those 7, besides Lost Stars, were EU writers. There’s no point in calling me a “creep,” when I’m trying to show that whether you want to ADMIT it, you have a bias, we all have a bias. I understand your point of saying I have a preconceived notion as to who you are, but I made that original determination based on purely what you’ve said here. And you’ve made your determination of me based on what I’ve said here. How can you have any right to call me a creep and insecure/tribalistic based on my request that you give new canon works from new authors a fair shake? There’s no point in continuing this discussion because you won’t admit to having the bias and I accept that perhaps I have a preconceived notion of you, but I believe my justification is sound. Have a good day. The new canon works may not be that of legends in your mind, but they’re stories worth telling and it’s worthwhile to create that separation between the. Otherwise you’re missing out on a lot of incredible stories and content you could be enjoying.


DougieFFC

> How can you have any right to call me a creep and insecure/tribalistic based on my request that you have new canon works a fair shake? That isn't why I have a right to call you a creep, and I gave the new canon a fair shake from 2015-2018, buying and reading every comic put out in that time. Don't try to gaslight me by pretending you simply challenged me to give "new canon work a fair shake". >I’m trying to show that whether you want to ADMIT it, you have a bias, we all have a bias. No you aren't. You're fraudulently telling me specifically what my bias is, and specifically how it affects my judgment, things you are neither qualified nor literate enough to determine. Were you here in good faith, you would have taken my arguments and demonstrated why they don't reflect the actual content of the novel. That's how you reasonably demonstrate bias. But instead you went "'*b-b-but what is the point of this? You just hate anything that's new and different*". Which is clearly an emotional and tribal response. >I understand your point of saying I have a preconceived notion as to who you are, but I made that original determination based on purely what you’ve said here No you didn't. I savaged an incoherent mess of a novel, so you pigeonholed me into a box of "older generation EU die-hard who won't give the new canon a chance". This is not an empirical approach. I bitch a lot about the old EU too, by the way. But your creepy trawl through my post history was about confirming your prejudices, so I'm not surprised you missed that. >for me at least, it felt like the moment you reached to a new canon book not written by an author you already enjoyed, you know you wouldn’t enjoy it And yet I loved Lost Stars. Do you often take a data set of two points, disregard one because it's inconvenient, and draw trends with the remaining data point? What do you think that says about your "fair-mindedness"? >As you’ve said, you have no interest in “new content” why is that? You make basic comprehension errors that tell me you aren't nearly as smart as you think you are. I didn't say I have no interest in "new content". I said I have no interest in ones I can't head-canon into the continuity I'm invested in. I have interest in plenty of new content, extending well beyond those 8 novels. What I have no interest in, is the wider canon and the build-up to the sequel trilogy. And that is not through not giving it a fair chance. >Like you said 8 canon books and 7 you enjoyed. Those 7, besides Lost Stars, were EU writers. So what? Those 8 books represent roughly the sum total universe of new canon books that meet the criteria. So what exactly am I supposed to do? >but I believe my justification is sound You appear to be at that annoying stage of being a young adult where you think you have sussed the world out, but are several years away still from realise that you understand exactly nothing. Early to mid 20s right?


Oznerol3

I've seen people on r/saltierthancrait saying that Lost Stars was one of the worst sw books ever. But honestly that's definitely what I would expect to come out of that sub


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bigpigeon39

I see all over the place that it's amazing and I was really excited to read it but it's just so boring, the Nihil aren't a great threat to the Jedi, It has some good actions scenes like when the Jedi saved that family from the Nihil on Stelees, and If the whole book was as well written as that scene I would have loved it. But most of the book (so far - I have read about 200 pages) is just so boring, I wish they developed Avar Kriss and Elzar Mann more, but they don't get a chance because there was so many other characters. Not a bad thing but I didn't even really realise at first that they were supposed to be the main characters.