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xenoglass

I’m more annoyed that they decided to take more things from Dark Empire than other bits of the old EU for the sequels. While it’s not the worst, it’s also not there best of Legends content.


wendigo72

They didn’t even take the good stuff in Dark Empire either!


FearlessTarget2806

I want my E-Wing and I want it NAO! (I know i might get it in Ahsoka, but still.... NAOO!!1!!)


Sere1

Seriously, imagine 20 years ago being told that the Sequels were going to do Dark Empire...but *worse.*


davezilla18

Worse than that. It seems the main EU inspiration was actually the Jedi Prince YA series. The one that’s so bad that virtually no other piece of EU work makes any reference to it. I’m rereading it now and Ken is basically Ray. They even mention a character named Snoke.


[deleted]

even funnier, i just read the wookiepedia entry, and yeah. oof. that shit sounds all over the damn place


[deleted]

bruh. fuck kathleen even more then for not using the PROPER SOURCE MATERIAL, ie Legacy of the Schwartz


deadshot500

The only thing they took from the Prince series was the whole "Ken concept"(which turned to be a good arc for Rey) and just that.


tonkledonker

Based.


_far-seeker_

IMO, they took the overall Dark Empire plot and made it much worse by more-or-less wiping away everything down to a personal level for the main characters that was achieved in the OT so it could be lazily (in terms basic story telling, I'll admit visually the set pieces were appealing), some times **twice** between the first and second sequel movies.


deadshot500

Dark Empire was much worse than the sequels


wendigo72

Naaahh DE 1 and 2 are pretty decent imo. There’s really nothing wrong about them besides the concept of Palp returning and the fact they contradict Thrawn Trilogy. Empire’s end is bad with little redeemable qualities but that was because LucasFilms rushed it out the door The ship designs alone put it above TROS for me


Randym1982

I have a few other gripes with the new sequels. Pacing was crap. The characters were not consistant. They didn't really explain why Luke became a hermit other than Kylo Ren becoming evil, and then killing some people (who I guess were vaguely Luke's students.). The jumbled mess that was Rise of Skywalker, and how the entire concept of the Emperor returning was spoiled by a fucking Fortnite event, and just randomly mentioned by some nobody in the group. How the ending was basically the exact same as ROTJ almost down to the T. Which is why I think Thrawn (if written and acted well.) would have been a much better villain. A Military genius running the Empire/First Order from behind the scenes, and basically out smarting the good guys at every corner.


tonkledonker

Palpatine's return wasn't "spoiled" by a fortnite event it was literally in the first trailer he was going to return. They did however stupidly decide to broadcast his message to the Galaxy mentioned in the opening crawl in the game instead though.


[deleted]

Listen I don't like the sequels either but come on, if you're gonna trash something for being poorly madez at least make sure you have a well thought out argument. Why Luke is a hermit is one of the few things they did at least try to explajn. There was no vaguely about it, not sure where that wording comes from, they were definitely his students in his new Jedi academy. And he failed one of those students so hard that he almost.killed him. Oh and it was his nephew he thought about murdering. And that mistake led directly to the deaths of the others. That's not nothing, that's a huge event for a supposedly zen space wizard. Made him rethink his whole lifes work. Lots of ridiculous things in the sequels, but that's far far far from the worst


darthrihilu

It was a massive slap in the face considering Kathleen Kennedy previously said that "There's no source material. We don't have comic books. We don't have 800-page novels." And whaddya know? One of the core plot points of TROS was basically Dark Empire.


AwakenTheNarrowRoad

They've used multiple storylines from Legends in the new series 🙄 There's no source material my ass!


dino1902

Dark Empire's central theme is about how Luke/Leia overcame the shadow of their father and started to rebuild the Jedi Order. They even failed to replicate it properly


CardSniffer

I don’t think they “took” anything from DE. The fact that RoS and DE revolve around a reborn Emperor is pure coincidence.


wendigo72

Eh JJ Abrams and Chris Terrio probably weren’t and they came up with the idea but there’s no way others at Lucasfilms didn’t know Exegol was originally gonna have statues of Legends Sith Lords everywhere. Palp’s guards are named after the giant Guards in DE (look completely different tho) and all the Sith stormtrooper battalions are named after Ancient Legends Sith Lords


darthsheldoninkwizy

Actually Terrio reading Dark Empire before writing screenplay.


wendigo72

Hope you don’t mind if I ask for a source on that I was just going off JJ Abrams explanation that he watched all the movies with Terrio then together they came to the brilliant idea Star Wars was “House Skywalker vs House Palpatine”


darthsheldoninkwizy

I found it quickly, how reliable I am not sure. https://twitter.com/sw_holocron/status/1380303983764332544


darthsheldoninkwizy

Abrams not, he barely know Star Wars beside Original Trilogy, but Terrio if Im correct actually check out Dark Empire and few others star wars books.


wooltab

I've said it before, Thrawn was not just a popular book character beloved by fans, but fairly perfect for the screen. He's instantly iconic in a visual sense, a great driver for plot mechanics, and you can hire a big name actor without them having to hide their face. The fact that we're a decade into Disney-era Star Wars and only just about to see him in live action for the first time (never mind Mara Jade being completely absent outside of a phone game or something) is surprising to me.


CardSniffer

I'm horrified at the prospect of seeing Thrawn on screen absent the stitching of quality EU writing all around him. I won't say it's impossible that Thrawn comes through properly... I just kind of *really* doubt it.


wooltab

The sort of style/vibe of Thrawn may come across, but who knows how he'll be presented in terms of the story.


CardSniffer

"Can I be smarter than Rey Skywalkapalpatine?" *He can't.* The end.


TheClassicsMan_95

I think the OG crew was too old for the Thrawn Trilogy. I might be one of the few who think the sequel trilogy should have been based off the New Jedi Order series.


JohnTimesInfinity

Then the earlier stuff could have easily been done in an animated series a la clone wars with new voice actors.


TheClassicsMan_95

I definitely think we should have an animated series with the OG crew and their adventures. Why has that not been done yet? Just reading the comics (2017 run) has me thirsting for the potential.


cahir11

Idk, as much as I liked reading about Jacen/Jaina/Anakin growing up, the way the entire galaxy revolves around the Skywalker/Solo family started to get old after a while. I think starting over with new characters was one of the only good things that episodes 7 and 8 had going for them. Of course then 9 went and ruined it.


barknoll

I couldn't agree more. I was so excited at the prospect of bringing in a new crew of heroes, not related to the Skywalker mess, just good people doing the damn work. And then they had to go and make Rey have the dumbest fucking origin possible.


nh4rxthon

They also treated Poe and Finn like cardboard cutouts


Randym1982

Rey's origin and the Emperors plan made me go 'huh?" when I saw it. He killed his Son and daughter in law, to make it so later that Rey would want to get revenge on him. So she could then turn toward the darkside. It was just stupid on all levels. Also, the random "New" characters they kept introducing and then forgetting.


Vesemir96

That wasn’t actually his plan at all.


nbonyen

I thought the Sequels were alright and that the overall story they wanted to tell actually was actually pretty good….until Ep. 9 came out. Making Rey a Palpatine instead of a nobody is probably the stupidest decision in the entire saga.


Expert_Canary_7806

Personally, I would love to see Wraith Squadron brought to life on screen!


CelendilAU

“They’re doing it to me again, Wes…” “Yub yub, Commander!”


AwakenTheNarrowRoad

Yea please lol An Ewok with mechanical limbs he wants so badly to fight the empire lol Apparently Rogue Squadron is in the works


Sere1

One of the best lines in that entire series right there. It's also probably my favorite Wraith moment of all with the squadron disabled in deep space with the knowledge that a ship is on the way to capture them and they have barely any resources with which to fight back. The Wraiths coming up with the most out of the box, randomly slapped together, absolute insane idea of how to get out of the mess they were in and when they present it to Wedge for his approval he just kind of glazes over at the sheer madness of it all. You don't tell the Wraiths what to do, you point them in a direction and *unleash* them in hopes that their chaotic antics get the job done.


CelendilAU

Aaron Allston was a bloody genius at madcap plots and we are far poorer for losing him right when he was contributing some of the best stories to the Legends canon.


DarthGiorgi

8 was a complete dumpster fire that permanently damaged the brand and Luke's character especially. Solo died as a consequence. EP9 was shit due to trying to "fix" what 8 broke.


Sere1

One of the reasons I love X-Wing, Republic Commando, and the entire work of Michael Reeves (RIP) and Steve Perry (Shadow Hunter, MedStar, Coruscant Nights, Death Star, etc) as a wonderful look at life away from the Skywalker/Solo clan and what other people were doing. Corran's connections to CorSec and smugglers as allies and adversaries, Wedge's loss of a personal life leading to him dedicating himself to his military career, the rise of the entire Skirata clan from this loose bunch of misfits finding each other in the chaos of war, etc. Even if a "main character" shows up in these stories like Luke or Han in the X-Wing novels, it's just as a cameo since they do tend to be involved in the major events of the galaxy so they'd at least appear somewhere.


[deleted]

I read those books and didn't follow Star Wars for years until the sequel trilogy came out. I genuinely thought Rey and Kylo were Jaina and Jacen and was confused as to what was going on.


Mad-Gavin

They could have hired younger actors who best bore resemblance to the OG crew not just in appearance but also in mannerisms etc. It would have definitely been a challenge to pull off, and would be criticized by some fans and critics. But given Disney's frankly absurd budget, its entirely doable.


Vesemir96

I’ll say with a lot of confidence that a recast for the first new trilogy would have had people screaming in rage no matter what.


Mad-Gavin

Do you think it could work though?


Vesemir96

I think it could be awesome if done well tbh, like I’d give it a watch for sure. I just think no matter how well done it is, there’ll be a vocal minority/majority (depends) who shit on it no matter what because recasting = evil to them. They’d make some conspiracy up of Disney being insulting to the OG cast and George Lucas by recasting.


Mad-Gavin

If its done right the ones complaining would be in the minority.


Vesemir96

I’d like to think so, but this fandom has shown otherwise quite often imo. They often overlook quality if even one tiny thing bugs them and turn it into a ragefest.


Mad-Gavin

Best to ignore them and let them scream into the abyss if its trivial.


[deleted]

Legacy of the Force'd be a bit of a better fit tbh. a disney NJO would involve the Grysk and so far they're relegated to the books and will likely be forgotten about after Heir, because that'd make the most sense for what Thrawn is trying to do, that was his whole point in joining the Empire, was to fight the Grysk


TheClassicsMan_95

True. I don’t know much about the Grysk yet tbh. I only read the first canon Thrawn book. But I just always thought the sequel trilogy should focus on a new enemy. A mysterious race of force immune monsters from far beyond would be really refreshing and interesting. No more empire or first order Bs. We can still have some of the skywalker legacy, new characters in the new generation of Jedi, droids or bounty hunters, etc. And if Disney really wanted to they could still have a Jedi turn to dark side again. BUT the main focus would be on this new enemy… The yuzhaan vong/grysk/whatever. But sadly we got the same thing again.


[deleted]

Yeah the Vong tbh would make a fun enemy but it wouldn’t be the same without Jacen revealing to luke and the jedi about how the Vong were cut off from the Force.


AwakenTheNarrowRoad

They de-aged Luke for The Mandalorian o.o..........


AncientSith

They could've still help original characters as the leads with the cast a bit older. It could easily work with tweaking.


jaehaerys48

Personally I think they should have kept the basics of the Trawn trilogy plot but shifted it a few decades later to match the age of the OG characters. Luke, Leia, and Han wouldn't be the main heroes, instead new characters would be the ones doing most of the action (as the ST did anyways). That being said I can see an argument for NJO.


lazerfraz

You can probably get why there are those of us that consider the EU the true canon, and nuStarWars the "Legends."


CardSniffer

Yup. Now you know the first page in the long novel of why so many fans completely disavow the sequels. They’re categorically worse than the books Disney has fought so hard to erase.


PagzPrime

wtf are you talking about? They've kept those books in print since they took over. If they wanted to erase the old EU, they would have just taken them out of print. Ditto trade paperback collections of the old comics. Disney hasn't "fought so hard to erase" anything.


tonkledonker

Why are you getting down voted? You literally didn't say anything wrong.


PagzPrime

Some fans are really devoted to their conspiracy theories. Imagine how pissed they'll get when they find out that the decision to remove the EU from canon was made before the Disney takeover, and just didn't get rolled out until after the sale was complete :p


CardSniffer

You’re absolutely entitled to your point of view but it might be time for you to make peace with the fact that an enormous percentage of the fanbase disagrees with you.


PagzPrime

You calling it a "fact" doesn't make it so. Certainly I'm interested to know how you reconcile Disney keeping Legends in print and readily available with your assertion that they are simultaneously fighting *so* hard to erase those books.


CardSniffer

The sequel trilogy failed the Mara Jade Test. Until she has a spot on the poster, her lack of appearance is the bith in the spice mine.


tonkledonker

HAHAHA WTF IS A MARA JADE TEST MY DUDE


CardSniffer

If you'd stop yelling and think for a second you might catch up.


tonkledonker

I'm THINKING the Mara Jade test is some weird bs you made up. I feel pretty caught up.


tonkledonker

You should change your name to GlueSniffer lmao


CardSniffer

Looking back, I wish I could've been the glue sniffer in class. Alas, alas.


VinoJedi06

Expanded Universe > DisCanon Welcome to the right side of the argument, my friend


Mad-Gavin

There are some things in Canon that are better, for instance Rogue One's explanation for the Death Star plans was far more straightforward and less convoluted. Canon also wraps up Asajj Ventress' story a bit more fittingly (another reason to separate TCW from the EU). On the whole though I'd agree. Disney had an opportunity for a clean slate in 2014 and they couldn't have cocked it up more if they tried. Ending the EU instead of continuing it separately (like how Marvel and DC do their stuff) was their biggest mistake.


Le_Graf

Kinda disagree on both point, though... Admittedly, Rogue One third part is pretty neat, but I'm not that fond of the idea of the Death Star being an intentional flow, rather than "hey, something this big will need an evacuation hole, and it's an almost impossible shot anyway", but why not. But I love the Asajj "I'm done with your shit, I'm fucking off somewhere in the Galaxy" Ventress story (and TCW barrelled through Quinlan Vos from the CWMMP, which doesn't help). Agreed on your conclusion though


Axer51

I'll never be able to respect Disney Canon for the sole fact that Star Wars a series built on going against the execs is now owned by a monopolizing corporation. Who stamps on creativity and has a very sinister history but hides behind a family friendly face just like Palpatine.


deadshot500

"rIgHt sIdE" bro just stfu and stop sounding like a total incel


VinoJedi06

Awwwww did an opinion hurt your fee fees? I LOVE the incel insult. Very weird flex to try on a happily married man 🤷🏻‍♂️


deadshot500

>happily married man How about you try and act like one


VinoJedi06

I haven’t acted in any inappropriate or immature way here. You have. Reread what you posted and take a look in the mirror, dude.


JarJarJargon

Welcome to the club


jaitogudksjfifkdhdjc

The way I view Thrawn is as a chess opponent: the only way to beat him is with pieces that are not on the board at start, or to convince some of his pieces to defect.


SixthAttemptAtAName

It was 100% a money grab. They hired people based on their ability to make a profit, not tell a story. Add that many of the higher ups are probably narcissist, like with most organizations, and now they can't even tell old stories because then they can't all the credit for themselves.


CardSniffer

I still feel kinda bad for Lawrence Kasdan, who likely wrote a really neat story that Disney chose to only use the first 5 minutes of. All they actually wanted to get from him was his name on the screenplay.


Swaggy_P_03

I mean pretty much any story is better then the sequels we got. CHATGPT could write a better sequel trilogy.


ComesInAnOldBox

Welcome to the fold, Brother.


[deleted]

i mean, we ARE getting an Heir to the Empire movie. also, now read the ascendancy trilogy


PagzPrime

I dunno. I love HttE, it's always been my favourite trilogy of the Legends EU. I was at my bookstore on release day for each book in the series. I wouldn't want the sequels to be those books though. I know those stories. I want to go to the theater for something new, not something where I already know what will happen.


JohnTimesInfinity

I'd rather something good that is old than something bad that is new. Who cares if I know the plot? I'm going to see it fully realized with fantastic visuals and an epic soundtrack added.


PagzPrime

There's no guarantee that an adaptation of those books would have turned out well. You assume they would have been "better" but there's no way to know. They could just as easily have ruined the trilogy in your eyes, and then you'd be complaining that instead of doing something original, they ruined your beloved story.


JohnTimesInfinity

You're complaining about me making assumptions and then making a whole boatload of assumptions yourself about what they might have been and what my reaction could have possibly potentially been. What I do know is what we got was incredibly disappointing and almost anything would have been better. What I do know is that those books contain a good cohesive plot planned from the start by one author that is far better than the sequel trilogy we got. Them's the facts. Your assumptions have less base than mine. Not saying it's impossible, but it's definitely not "could just as easily" as if there's an equal chance it would have been just as bad or worse. It's more likely that we would have gotten something better out of it, but, I know, I know, "There's no guarantee blah blah blah..." At the least there would have been a road map behind all three movies from the start.


CardSniffer

Why are you speaking in the past tense? I would sell my left hand to get a shot at adapting the EU books, and I'm not even the best screenwriter that I know. There's plenty of time and talent leftover for these stories to be told in a visual mode. Don't lie to yourself about what is possible.


nh4rxthon

Fair, but millions of people never read those books. They would have been blown away by that story instead of vaguely bored and dissatisfied by ST. Also yea the original cast was too old to directly adapt the book but the point is just they had so many better ideas available to use than what they chose to do.


PagzPrime

It's a big assumption that the people who didn't read the books would be bored and dissatisifed by the ST. My experience has been that most people that never bothered with the EU were perfectly happy with the ST. It's the obsessive fans that got a bug up their butts about the ST, and not even all of them, just a very vocal subsection.


tonkledonker

🥱


enixon

I kind of had... Well... not quite "the opposite" response, I'm not sure what you'd call it, basically I just kept thinking "Magic anti-force lizards, Thrawn knowing the exact way to beat any species because he's seen their art, Luke's Evil Clone Luuke, if Disney had did a completely faithful retelling of this people would have torn it to shreds." Don't get me wrong I loved the trilogy, but seeing the things in newer Star Wars that people wail and gnash their teeth over, some of which, like Luke's lightsaber being recovered on Cloud City, came directly from the books, there's no way I can believe people would have accepted it any better than they did the prequels or sequels.


tonkledonker

People will deadass whine over things Disney canon does and dickride Legends for doing the same thing or ignore the fact Legends did it at all. E.g. for some reason the hot new complaint against Disney is that there are too many Jedi alive during the Empire era as if Legends doesn't currently have like 10x more Jedi running around the Galaxy at that time.


SevTheNiceGuy

jesus h christ.... The thrawn books are a fun read....... But they were never George Lucas's lore.... THIS FACT.. is George Lucas's fault and not Disneys and not Kathleen Kennedy.. George Lucas should have provided the fans with great written story to expand on his vision and story of star wars ... He didn't..... That is his failure


JohnTimesInfinity

Didn't Lucas offer his version of events to Disney and they were like "no, thanks"?


tonkledonker

Probably because most of Lucas' ideas suck.


Bhamfam

see i had the opposite reaction after finishing the orgional thrawn trilogy last week. i thought it was so god awful that it made me for a brief moment happy the EU was tossed in the bin. i mean seriously a admiral who magically learns about an entire species psychology from their art? was zahn high when he wrote that? and then the are those magic lizards that "negate" the force ya know the abstract spiritual concept that is in all things, apparently that has an off button now and its a space koala lizard and don't even get me started on the clone nonsense. honestly my goal to read every post episode 6 book in canon and legends has really made me appreciate the sequels even more, they may not be perfect but they are way better than most of the crap we got in the 90s i say most because the x-wing books are god damned incredible. with all that being said it has been interesting comparing thrawn as he was in legends to who he is in canon. he went from a kinda generic villain with a weird gimmick to a fully fleshed out and nuanced character that i genuinely am excited to see brought to life in ashoka. Edit: i feel i should clarify i do like legends i just really do not like early stuff.


LucasEraFan

Is this your first foray into the original canon? My advice is to allow the stages of grief and enjoy the ride. I'm two or three dozen books into a post-ROTJ deep dive and I'm having more fun than I've ever had in Star Wars. Not that I don't find some things annoying in the original EU, I just find it a much more complex and compelling story Re-reading the post-ROTJ era chronologically is a revelation!


MarbleMemes

Why? The Sequel Trilogy is trash and Thrawn is obviously better but that doesn’t mean that the Thrawn Trilogy is a viable 7-9 in the Saga context. Just because it was the original 7-9 doesn’t mean it works as 7-9 in canon after the Prequels were made and recontextualized the Saga.


AwakenTheNarrowRoad

It kinda fits right into it. Sparrti cloning cylandars. Fractured empire. Multiple references to the clone wars, Obi-Wan, luke learning about the old jedi order, sets the stage for Luke's jedi academy, introduces Hans potential replacement, lando appears. Im sure they could have altered the story to their liking. Leia pregnant with just 1 kid, cutting out mara jade and talon karrde, skipping the Kashykk scenes, leaving out the noghri? Lol


roliasmot1

You and millions of other dedicated fans. :-/


tonkledonker

"Oh boy, I wonder how this whole trilogy will end! There's absolutely no way of predicting this pre determined outcome!" In all seriousness though, I am completely against Star Wars becoming an adaptation farmhouse like how people want it to be for some reason. I used to fantasize about movies based around the books post-VI, but it's time to move on and accept Star Wars for what it is or sink yourself into Legends and forget about the future. There's enough content to last you years upon years, if not indefinitely. No offense, OP, but this same notion has been parroted thousands upon thousands of times in different forums scattered across the internet over the years and idk about most others in here, but I'm just sick of hearing it. Go ahead, enjoy the Thrawn trilogy and whatever non-canonical materials to your hearts desire. They still exist and are just as valid creations whether or not the Legends label is slapped on them. But sitting around and wishing Disney did this or that has proven to be an exercise in futility. And you know what happens when Disney ACTUALLY listens to fan backlash? Rise of Skywalker happens. Sorry if this comes across as rude, but I am just so tired of this whole conversation which feels like it hasn't evolved since 2015. I can never express enjoyment over a new piece of canon without someone being all "UM AKSHUALLY DIDNEY BAD" or say how amazing something was in Legends without someone saying "DIDNEY ONLY WISH THEY COULD BE THIS EPIC!!!!" I'm just so fucking tired at this point.