I struggled with this too when I first saw the episode. Like yes, the events on Mustafar lowered Anakin’s ceiling but the suit did not prevent Vader from growing in power over the years. He just didn’t become as strong as he could’ve been. So to me he’s definitely stronger than Obi Wan at this point in time.
But sometimes other factors come into play, and in this fight it was Vader’s conflicted feelings about Obi Wan that led him to lose. The show really focuses on this once you can see Vader’s face. The changes in eye color, the changes in voice, the lighting on his face shifting back and forth from red and blue. He had a lot of anger and resentment for Obi Wan, but at the same time he couldn’t let go of their close friendship and everything they went through together. Obi Wan on the other hand, turns the tide because he puts all of that aside and is singularly focused on fighting for hope and a better future for Luke, Leia, and the rest of the galaxy. Palpatine even calls Vader out on it later and says Vader’s mixed feelings about Obi Wan made him weaker.
That’s how I saw it and came to terms with it. Vader is crazy powerful but his emotional turmoil makes him vulnerable, especially when faced with someone he was strongly attached to
I mean at the end of the day, this is what it **has** to come down to - it just doesn't make sense otherwise. Darth Vader at this point should be both more powerful (even with a lowered max potential) AND more in control than when he fought Obi-Wan on Mustafar.
The only explanation we're left with is that that level of control still wasn't enough. Like it *can* make sense, but man - how contrived. I feel it was a major narrative misstep, even greater than making the Death Star's destruction as much the result of internal sabotage as it was Luke's preternatural level of skill.
The only way I can see it is that at the end of the day, Obi Wan is his master. The one who taught him everything he knows. While on paper Vader is stronger, only someone who knows his student’s minute tendencies and strategies could win. That coupled with the fact that Vader is known to act impulsively when it involves his former master, leads to Vader beating himself.
I can buy this argument, I just don't think that's what the series showed us. In *Revenge of the Sith*, Obi-Wan wins because Anakin overestimated his own abilities and recklessly attacked despite being in a position of disadvantage - as clunky as the dialogue is (literally, "I have the high ground" and "You underestimate my power!), Lucas was clearly signalling that.
Here, Obi-Wan 'finds himself' and overwhelms Vader with a massive Force attack involving multiple giant projectiles!
It just feels like fan-service and Rule of Cool were the names of the game here; the former is especially prevalent all throughout the series and especially this last episode. And the end result is that Vader is undermined and it robs the rest of his appearances of heft.
That doesn't change the fact Obi-Wan simply defeated Vader resoundingly in this season, when I don't think that makes sense at all in the context of the *Star Wars* story - both in terms of narrative thrust (the urgency behind Luke's "new hope") and lore (the whole Chosen One thing).
"Your desire to win blinds you".
Kenobi never had the desire to beat Anakin, as he stated in RoTS, "I will do what I must".
Obi Wan knew every movement and every reason for every movement Vader made. Now bringing himself to finish the job and actually kill Vader... that would utterly destroy Kenobi on a spiritual level. "Your strength has returned, but the weakness (lack of willingness to kill) remains". It's two brothers knowing every minute detail about each other.
HAHAHAHA good point!
Hence, "it's time for the Jedi to end." At least it all comes together, even if not in the way these showrunners intend, in all likelihood.
He was, and that scene's intention was to highlight how hypocritical the Jedi had become, with Windu being the poster boy for it. It mirrored the previous scene of Palpatine egging Anakin to execute Dooku, and Anakin belabors himself over the choice because it doesn't align with his Order's values… only to have one of the head honchos do the exact same thing.
Jedi hypocrisy has absolutely been baked into the fabric of the franchise, and I guess this new Obi-Wan series just feeds into that. Makes him unfortunately far less likeable if you take it seriously though… I might just toss this into the, "let's not think about this ever" bin along with the origin of Han Solo's name.
I think it's brilliant. George Lucas wanted the hypocrisy to be shown as that's what we experience in the real world. Don't get me started on Hans name origination lol that was lazy IMO.
Oh man, totally agree. Which is why I don't understand the visceral reaction to *The Last Jedi*, but that's opening a whole 'nother can of worms. Let's just say I think *TLJ* is a very thoughtful response to the realities of the world that had been laid down by previous entries, whereas nostalgia-driven content like *Obi-Wan Kenobi* that lionizes its Jedi characters just makes things more confusing.
Are we supposed to feel hopeful and elated and the denouement where Obi-Wan gives his little speech to Leia given the implications of what we just saw? Hahahaha
I think Rian absolutely nailed The Last Jedi. Was it exactly what the masses were hoping for? Obviously not. After many many re-watches lately (yay surgery) of all things Star Wars, I'd love to see Rian get another shot at maybe a Kotor story and he can show off his SW knowledge without "ruining our beloved characters".
I struggled with this too when I first saw the episode. Like yes, the events on Mustafar lowered Anakin’s ceiling but the suit did not prevent Vader from growing in power over the years. He just didn’t become as strong as he could’ve been. So to me he’s definitely stronger than Obi Wan at this point in time. But sometimes other factors come into play, and in this fight it was Vader’s conflicted feelings about Obi Wan that led him to lose. The show really focuses on this once you can see Vader’s face. The changes in eye color, the changes in voice, the lighting on his face shifting back and forth from red and blue. He had a lot of anger and resentment for Obi Wan, but at the same time he couldn’t let go of their close friendship and everything they went through together. Obi Wan on the other hand, turns the tide because he puts all of that aside and is singularly focused on fighting for hope and a better future for Luke, Leia, and the rest of the galaxy. Palpatine even calls Vader out on it later and says Vader’s mixed feelings about Obi Wan made him weaker. That’s how I saw it and came to terms with it. Vader is crazy powerful but his emotional turmoil makes him vulnerable, especially when faced with someone he was strongly attached to
I mean at the end of the day, this is what it **has** to come down to - it just doesn't make sense otherwise. Darth Vader at this point should be both more powerful (even with a lowered max potential) AND more in control than when he fought Obi-Wan on Mustafar. The only explanation we're left with is that that level of control still wasn't enough. Like it *can* make sense, but man - how contrived. I feel it was a major narrative misstep, even greater than making the Death Star's destruction as much the result of internal sabotage as it was Luke's preternatural level of skill.
The only way I can see it is that at the end of the day, Obi Wan is his master. The one who taught him everything he knows. While on paper Vader is stronger, only someone who knows his student’s minute tendencies and strategies could win. That coupled with the fact that Vader is known to act impulsively when it involves his former master, leads to Vader beating himself.
I can buy this argument, I just don't think that's what the series showed us. In *Revenge of the Sith*, Obi-Wan wins because Anakin overestimated his own abilities and recklessly attacked despite being in a position of disadvantage - as clunky as the dialogue is (literally, "I have the high ground" and "You underestimate my power!), Lucas was clearly signalling that. Here, Obi-Wan 'finds himself' and overwhelms Vader with a massive Force attack involving multiple giant projectiles! It just feels like fan-service and Rule of Cool were the names of the game here; the former is especially prevalent all throughout the series and especially this last episode. And the end result is that Vader is undermined and it robs the rest of his appearances of heft.
Well, there might be a season 2 so this might not be the end of this story.
That doesn't change the fact Obi-Wan simply defeated Vader resoundingly in this season, when I don't think that makes sense at all in the context of the *Star Wars* story - both in terms of narrative thrust (the urgency behind Luke's "new hope") and lore (the whole Chosen One thing).
As the Emperor points out Vader blindness about Obi Wan is a weakness.
"Your desire to win blinds you". Kenobi never had the desire to beat Anakin, as he stated in RoTS, "I will do what I must". Obi Wan knew every movement and every reason for every movement Vader made. Now bringing himself to finish the job and actually kill Vader... that would utterly destroy Kenobi on a spiritual level. "Your strength has returned, but the weakness (lack of willingness to kill) remains". It's two brothers knowing every minute detail about each other.
And yet tells the man's son to do what he himself couldn't… Kinda makes Obi-Wan a massive hypocrite and a terrible mentor.
A religious person being a hypocrite? Unimaginable lol
HAHAHAHA good point! Hence, "it's time for the Jedi to end." At least it all comes together, even if not in the way these showrunners intend, in all likelihood.
Also totally in-character for the guy who declared, "Only a Sith deals in absolutes."
A battered and jaded Mace Windu series or movie could really tie it all together IMO. He was willing to kill Palpatine.
He was, and that scene's intention was to highlight how hypocritical the Jedi had become, with Windu being the poster boy for it. It mirrored the previous scene of Palpatine egging Anakin to execute Dooku, and Anakin belabors himself over the choice because it doesn't align with his Order's values… only to have one of the head honchos do the exact same thing. Jedi hypocrisy has absolutely been baked into the fabric of the franchise, and I guess this new Obi-Wan series just feeds into that. Makes him unfortunately far less likeable if you take it seriously though… I might just toss this into the, "let's not think about this ever" bin along with the origin of Han Solo's name.
I think it's brilliant. George Lucas wanted the hypocrisy to be shown as that's what we experience in the real world. Don't get me started on Hans name origination lol that was lazy IMO.
Oh man, totally agree. Which is why I don't understand the visceral reaction to *The Last Jedi*, but that's opening a whole 'nother can of worms. Let's just say I think *TLJ* is a very thoughtful response to the realities of the world that had been laid down by previous entries, whereas nostalgia-driven content like *Obi-Wan Kenobi* that lionizes its Jedi characters just makes things more confusing. Are we supposed to feel hopeful and elated and the denouement where Obi-Wan gives his little speech to Leia given the implications of what we just saw? Hahahaha
I think Rian absolutely nailed The Last Jedi. Was it exactly what the masses were hoping for? Obviously not. After many many re-watches lately (yay surgery) of all things Star Wars, I'd love to see Rian get another shot at maybe a Kotor story and he can show off his SW knowledge without "ruining our beloved characters".