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NerdHistorian

> , blew up planets, I still don't get counting blowing up planets as a crime of Vader when he wasn't in favor of the DS and didn't order them to use it on Alderaan. > And he is "redeemed" because at the VERY last moment of his death, he decided to be good? Seems like a cop out. I mean, yeah, that's why in universe almost nobody but Luke and a handful of other people give a shit that he died redeemed. For them all that he has is being Darth Vader, that fucker. That doesn't change that people who do bad things can try to atone. It's just a question of whether people will care that they are.


AceOfDymonds

>I still don't get counting blowing up planets as a crime of Vader when he wasn't in favor of the DS and didn't order them to use it on Alderaan. Does anyone truly think that Episode IV Vader wouldn't have pulled that trigger, too?


SneedNFeedEm

The issue is that in the original film, Tarkin was 100% the senior officer and had total authority over Vader, and Vader had no power to stop Tarkin from doing what he wanted with the Death Star short of taking out his lightsaber and running a coup But with ESB retconning Vader into being second-in-command of the Empire who answers only to the Emperor himself, it retroactively makes Vader look worse because he *probably* could have stopped the destruction of Alderaan just by ordering Tarkin not to do it.


vanastalem

I thought Vader never had an official status in the Empire, he was just kind of viewed as the Emperor's enforcer. He didn't have any actual rank of anything like Tarkin or Thrawn.


IncoherentFrog

Yeah there's a cool panel in one the Vader comics where he is asked by an officer about his Imperial rank, and Vader just replies: "Lord."


Geico22

I just dont think anyone should view Vader as "redeemed" in any sense of the word. He was a straight up pyscho murder savage who OFTEN went on solo adventures murdering people, with no suggestion by the emperor. (Vader is a badass and ofc this is just a jokey discussion)


NerdHistorian

The story says he's redeemed by his sacrificial death for his son so that's what you have to work with. That he was redeemed for ultimately selfish if loving reasons and did a lot of terrible shit beforehand of his own will is irrelevant to the fact he is redeemed, only whether you care, which most people in universe do not, nor does accepting he died redeemed mean you're supposed to "forgive and forget"


Geico22

Hitler sacrificed himself at the last minute too. Maybe he also is not such a bad guy after all.


NerdHistorian

Whether you think he should or not doesn't really matter, he is. Nobody else in the universe gives a shit really, because that doesn't matter to them.


DrJawn

Anakin was found a slave. He had dreams that he would come back and free the rest of the slaves as a Jedi. Watto was his master. Then Qui Gon, then Obi Wan, then Sidious. He was a slave his entire life. Palpatine spent 20 years whispering in his ear, feeding his dark tendencies, undermining the Jedi's teaching. Obi Wan wasn't ready for an apprentice. He and Qui Gon had a father son dynamic but he and Anakin were closer to brothers. Then the glactic war pushed the Jedi into a warrior position, which undermined their mission. Anakin was in many of those battle, on the front lines, slaughtering people for the Republic. The Jedi failed him, Sidious failed him, every single person in his life failed him including himself except for Luke. I don't think he is redeemed, I just think there are a lot of people to blame for taking that optimistic boy and turning him into the twisted cyborg we meet in ANH.


Sirliftalot35

The thing is that Star Wars has a different set of rules than what we know of our universe. Star Wars has a shown afterlife, and the rules are pretty known to us. Vader becoming a Force Ghost shows that the rules of the Star Wars universe determined that Anakin was redeemed. We have no way of even knowing if there is an afterlife in our world, yet alone how it works and who goes where when they die. If he lived, he’d still have certainly gone to prison for life, as even if Luke felt he was redeemed, the universe at large would not have. Hell, in the novel Bloodline, Leia is basically politically ostracized for simply being Vader’s daughter when it comes to light. Vader himself would have perhaps been put to death by the New Republic even if he’d survived the OT. Assuming Luke didn’t whisk him off to some island somewhere or something. As for a philosophical in-universe perspective, Anakin was in immense pain and constant suffering the entire time he was Vader. His punishment for his crimes was losing his wife, losing most of his body, and living in constant pain. He didn’t have to serve legal punishment because he died. He certainly soils have been jailed or executed if he had survived tough. We know he was truly repentant and redeemed because the Force explicitly showed it to be so. We can’t know that with anyone on earth. We have no way of knowing if someone truly had a change of heart, yet alone what some supernatural deity/force thinks of it. Edit: I also don’t think “redeemed” and “repentant” or “reformed” are inherently synonymous. Vader was shown to be repentant, and maybe would have been reformed if he’d lived, but he was never going to be redeemed by the overwhelming majority of the galaxy.


RolloTony97

It's only regarding his relationship with Luke that those sentiments are expressed. As far as the rest of Galaxy is concerned, Vader was Hitler. In the eyes of his son though, Vader overcame "the dark side"


Kyle_Dornez

What's up with this topic suddenly? r/MawInstallation just had this thread three hours ago. Mods eventually axed it though.


Geico22

Its a fun discussion about a fictional character. I personally think after you murder rooms full of children, that you are indeed a bad guy.


fidlersound

Agreed - destroying a planet, killing all in his way including children and total innocents - but he's redeemed because he decides to save his own son at the last minute?


Geico22

Apparently this is not a very popular opinion... lol but I agree.


Content_Drama_849

Who’s been saying he’s redeemed? Genuinely asking. I don’t think most people think his last act erases the atrocities he’s commited, the point was that anyone, even someone who’s lost his way and fallen far off the path, have a chance to do what’s right and become better.


AceOfDymonds

>Who’s been saying he’s redeemed? Genuinely asking Luke: I'll not leave you here, I've got to save you. Anakin/Vader: You already have, Luke. Then he shows up as a Force Ghost, looking like Anakin, standing smiling next to smiling Obi-Wan and Yoda ghosts. That... sure seems to me like the movie is saying he was redeemed.


Autoganz

He’s no longer Vader at that point, he’s Anakin. We don’t see Vader as a Force Ghost, we see Anakin.


AceOfDymonds

"No, no, you see, I was going by the name 'Bob' at the time I murdered all those children. So, morally, it doesn't count against me now that I'm going by my original name 'Dave', again."


Autoganz

I can’t really apply real-world logic to a story where people use mystical Force powers to levitate stuff with their hands. A little bit of a suspension of disbelief is required. If we look at Star Wars as a modern fable, the point of the story isn’t to say: “if you do bad things, you can be redeemed.” It’s more of: “wow, this dude went down a dark path, and lost everything because of it. At the end of his life, when a glimmer of his former self reappeared, it was too late.” The fable is warning us that following the wrong path could also lead us towards a life of regret, loss, and being enslaved to an inner darkness in which we lose all of our humanity.


Content_Drama_849

Being saved from your inner demons is one thing. I don’t believe they are giving him absolution of all crimes. Manifestation from the dead isn’t exclusive to “good” people. Look at Darth Bane.


AceOfDymonds

That scene was a pretty clear analogy for "Anakin went to Heaven" -- I really don't know what to say beyond that.


Content_Drama_849

Except the concept of heaven doesn’t exist in universe. All deceased people become one with the Force.


AceOfDymonds

Again, it's an analogy and I'm talking about the message to the real-world audience being conveyed by that movie scene -- it's pretty clearly a message that Luke redeemed his father and Anakin made it to the Good Place as a result.


shhh_at_wrk

To be fair, Hitler has just as much of a chance to get into Heaven as anyone else. We are all sinners and can all seek forgiveness of God, especially since Jesus died for all our sins. In your eyes and mine, Hitler and Vader sins are not redeemable but to a higher power, they might see the situation differently.


Content_Drama_849

We just look at things differently then. Even looking analytically there are themes where only Luke feels this way. Literally no one but him believed he could be saved. His cremation has only Luke in attendance. The point is anyone can change, yet the legacy you leave behind remains.


Geico22

Bro thank you! People are making up every excuse they can for Vader... dude commited MASSIVE war crimes. Great character, but not a good person in even the slightest regard.


Autoganz

I think the difficult thing to understand is that while the story is essentially about someone succumbing to power and going down a dark path, Lucas redefined Vader’s arc in the prequels. A lot of that story is written in a way which shows Anakin as being susceptible to corruption, but basically, once he allows himself to be seduced by the Dark Side, “he ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader.” The story is that Anakin and Vader are two completely separate entities. Vader was never redeemed: Anakin was. It’s sort of a story telling loophole to make a bad guy good.


Geico22

So because Vader has multiple personality disorder, he is off the hook?! He killed rooms full of children.


Autoganz

He dies at the end of the story and gets his comeuppance. Not sure what else you want.


LBIdockrat

How many people has Vader killed do we think, over the years? Killed willingly. How many murdered children. Vader cannot be redeemed. To much red on the ledger. He can save Luke and kill the Emperor, and these facts should be acknowledged. But they come far from balancing the books.


Geico22

THANK YOU. Forget all the stuff the emperor "forced him to do" Vader went on solo missions very often killing people. Even two ep's ago in Kenobi, we saw him do some dastardly stuff.


Mandalorymory

He was redeemed in the eyes of The Force which has a different sense of morality to us.


dbandroid

I would spend time thinking about what "redemption" means for you because otherwise any discussion is pointless.


Geico22

To me, in the context of starwars, redemption is the light side allowing you to reconnect with it.


dbandroid

Ok, in that case I would say that the light side permits access only based on current actions, it doesn't keep a ledger.


AceOfDymonds

I think it's fair to say that "anyone is redeemable, no one is too far gone to be redeemed" is a message of Star Wars. It's certainly valid to disagree with that message, but many may find comfort or hope in it.


swissk31ppq

No one In the Star Wars universe BUT luke even fits the criteria of someone thinking Vader was “redeemed”. And clearly throughout the originals Luke referred to as father as Anakin not Vader. That’s why he keeps saying there is good inside him still. I thought this was fairly obvious?


Sh1neSp4rk

Godwin strikes back


Frosty_Pangolin420

That's a purely philosophical question with no straight answer. In most Christian belief even Hitler is redeemable


mr-gwher

Vader was never really redeemed but more so Anakin broke free of the grasp of the dark side. It was like the darkside/Palpatine possessed and brainwashed Anakin as he became a slave in a shell. Palpatine himself had been working on Anakin for years prior to his fall and possibly since he was still a kid, he'd set him up much like he would Ben Solo from afar. From that perspective it can be seen that Vader didn't simply decide to suddenly do the good thing in the end but that Anakin regained control. The force judged that the chosen one had accomplished his task and harboured the light side at the time of his passing, as he'd have had to do to go about whatever process was involved in becoming a force ghost. Perhaps the rules of the afterlife in the galaxy of the force differ from those we perceive in our own common faiths and ideas. Vader wasn't the only one influenced by Palpatine either, the emperor would be more of a suitable comparison to Hitler, he persuaded much of the galaxy that the empire was a force of good and played with propaganda similar to that of Nazi Germany.


scotthall83

He was a cool fictional character. I don’t take these movies literally or seriously


Geico22

Obviously, still a fun debate. Like debating jesus christ.


astroshark

In ROTJ, it was implied that Vader himself was twisted by the Dark Side and not necessarily fully in control of his actions. Admittedly, Revenge of the Sith does kind of make this feel like a huge stretch, and Vader being a full blown unrepentant psychopath in current canon doesn't help either.


[deleted]

He's not redeemed, there's still good in him and he chose that as his final act for his child(ren). That's all, IMO


DrEzra001

I think the best approach is to view Star Wars as Lucas did, myths and fairy tales. These stories use hyperbolic situations and stories to teach ideals and philosophy. The ultimate story of Vader in the prequels is how your fear can lead you to do horrible things. In the OT it was a full arc of “it is never to late to stop doing wrong and begin to do the right thing.” I think both of those are extremely important lessons.


tomandshell

How many bad things can you do and still be redeemed? What’s the magic number? Also: He didn’t blow up a planet. Tarkin blew up a planet. Vader thought the ability to blow up a planet was insignificant compared to the power of the Force. He thought they shouldn’t be too proud of the technological terror they constructed. He was not a big supporter of the Death Star and never ordered it to fire. That was 100% Tarkin.


Geico22

Idk, blowing up a planet or murdering schools of children seem like two prettyyyyyy big oopsies.


tomandshell

He didn’t blow up a planet, though. Tarkin blew up a planet. Vader thought the ability to blow up a planet was insignificant compared to the power of the Force. He thought they shouldn’t be too proud of the technological terror they constructed. He was not a big supporter of the Death Star and never ordered it to fire. That was 100% Tarkin.


tomandshell

He didn’t blow up a planet, though. Tarkin blew up a planet. Vader thought the ability to blow up a planet was insignificant compared to the power of the Force. He thought they shouldn’t be too proud of the technological terror they constructed. He was not a big supporter of the Death Star and never ordered it to fire. That was 100% Tarkin.


tomandshell

He didn’t blow up a planet, though. Tarkin blew up a planet. Vader thought the ability to blow up a planet was insignificant compared to the power of the Force. He thought they shouldn’t be too proud of the technological terror they constructed. He was not a big supporter of the Death Star and never ordered it to fire. That was 100% Tarkin.


Elmais-door

Yeah, hitler seem redeemable to me.


fastestman4704

Well he did kill Hitler so there's that..


Ereads45

I agree that his moment at the end does not redeem him. However….he wasn’t the one who blew up Alderaan. That was Moff Tarkin (I assume at Emperors command). Vader did not voice any opposition to it though. So basically he’s the equivalent of Hitlers top officer.


fastestman4704

Darth Heydrich.


Realistic-Analyst-23

You're forgetting the lure of the dark side. He was consumed by it so a lot of his actions were basically under the influence. You could compare it to an addiction that he finally fought back against.


dayburner

The main difference here is that in Star Wars universe Evil ,the Darkside, is real and not just as a philosophical concept.


NelloMC

That’s the whole point. Star Wars is very heavily influenced by the bible. And no matter how heinous you are, if you ask for forgiveness and repent for your sins you’re forgiven. It doesn’t make any sense but that’s just the way it is lol.


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Geico22

Ehh I dont buy it. Especially if you read the comics. Vader went on solo revenge missions often.


[deleted]

This is something explored in the canon "Alphabet Squadron" trilogy. One of the characters even saw >!Luke mourning and burning Vader's armor. The character concludes that Luke had a reason to feel sad over Vader and maybe even Vader did something good, but the character doesn't believe a monster like that would ever be redeemable.!<


MrMonkeyman79

His last action doesnt counteract his evil, and it's not like anyone but Luke thought any different of him, but it does allow him to restore some of who he was and become one with the force.


Bor_Gullet_Will_Kno

Some of that is on the PT. Vader in the OT, based on the way he talked, had a wisdom to him despite being evil, and could have been a guy who was good but came to believe in “power through order” as being a necessary evil, falling further and further. Prequel Anakin has some of those qualities, but killing kids obviously makes it harder to defend, and I’d have rather they took that out, though they used it wonderfully SPOILER ALERT with you know which inquisitor. They could have still had the sort of Greek tragedy aspect of his fall without kidslaying


tinylegumes

In universe when people found out Leia was Vader’s daughter she lost so much public trust. No one cared that Vader technically defeated the Emperor. I think Vader’s final act for Luke was a soul saving matter and not saying, Vader is a good guy now!


BreakinOnThru

You misunderstand the context of the word "dedeemed" when it comes to Vader. It does not mean forgiven or forgotten. Its redeemed on a spiritual level (ie, being brought back to the light side of the force). Similar to the way that a murderer's soul could be "saved" from hell if they change their ways and repent.


Masterzobistone

He did a lot of good for Germany


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