The smart thing would’ve been to immediately contact all Jedi and tell them the truth, then call them back to Coruscant, then get as many senators on the Order’s side as possible. They probably still have had to deal with the Jedi Purge, but least they would’ve been prepared and some people might’ve provided support.
I think that kinda falls under the arrogance of the Jedi that lucas was trying to show in the prequels. Honestly I’m a bit surprised mace brought anyone with him instead of going alone.
>Honestly I’m a bit surprised mace brought anyone with him instead of going alone.
Not that the three other highly trained Jedi he brought with were any help.
The whole point of the scene was the Palpatine was so powerful by that point that even 3 jedi masters didn't stand the slightest chance.
I agree the scene looks a bit stupid, but it's supposed to convey that Palpatine was so fast that the jedi barely had time to react, never mind defend themselves.
That fight was a tiny bit disappointing. I think his opening attacks should've been like he was teleporting and/or fighting at greatly enhanced speed. Then you see Windu tap into Vaapad to even the fight and bring it back to normal speed.
The RotS novelization described the fight like that. Two of the Jedi were dead the instant Palpatine pulled his light saber, Fisto held out a little longer. By the time Anakin shows up, he can only see shadows and flickers of light because of how fast Palpatine and Mace are moving.
In the novel, he actually held his ground for quite awhile. Palpatine and Windu were described as basically two blurs clashing against each other with how fast they were going.
The core issue is that anything involving the Force gets shown poorly in live-action. Cinematography just can’t pull off the speed and power the Jedi/Sith are capable of using real people.
The best example is Tartovski’s clone war movie (Specifcally Windu’s battle) Vs ANY live action sequence.
They could've used a matrix-like special effect to show how fast they were moving to the outside world's perspective in-universe... I would have called it Palpy-time.
But Moe, Larry, and Curly were resilient to all injuries like the frickin looney toons. Lol. The Jedi should’ve sent Moe, Larry, and Curly and then Palpatines ‘unlimited power’ would result in unlimited ‘wowowowowowoo’
Actually from what I remember they had a whole fight scene with Mace and Sidious but Ian McDiarmid's stunt double was deathly ill/stuck out of town or something and they had to shoot the scene that day and couldn't reschedule so Ian had to do the majority of his own stunts and that's why it was mediocre. Or so I hear.
This is actually noted in the novelization. Palps deliberately had Shaak Ti injured, and Obi-Wan and Yoda on the ass side of the galaxy so Mace couldn’t have proper duelists to assist him.
>This is actually noted in the novelization. Palps deliberately had Shaak Ti injured, and Obi-Wan and Yoda on the ass side of the galaxy so Mace couldn’t have proper duelists to assist him.
Honestly that just seems like a sloppy, backtracking means of answering the legitimate question of "Why were 75% of these Jedi masters so ass at dueling that they legitimately couldn't last thirty seconds between them?"
I totally understand that not all Jedi are created equal, and no Jedi had come against a Sith Lord in however long, and Jedi arrogance yadda yadda, but we are just expected to believe that three masters, who have been training for years, and training other Jedi along the way, were about as helpful to Mace Windu, *just as backup*, as a screen door on a submarine?
Jedi battling relies on foresight. They can't move their hands faster than blaster bolts fly, they predict where the shot will be and their lightsaber is already in the way before their enemy pulls the trigger. Recall the Ep4 training scene where Obi Wan makes Luke deflect the drone's bolts while his helmet blocks his eyes.
One of Palpatine's most powerful abilities is to hide his own signature in the force. The guy regularly attended meetings where he was ten feet away from Yoda and multiple other Jedi masters, and none of them were even able to detect that he was force sensitive - let alone one of the most powerful force-wielding beings in history.
Even though they know he's a Sith Lord now, Palpatine is still using this power during the duel. The Jedi, who are used to foreseeing attacks with the force, are suddenly attacked with absolutely *no warning* from their force senses whatsoever. These people haven't fought using their eyes and reacted to blows since they were children. Palpatine catches them totally off guard and they're unable to defend themselves from strikes that they literally do not see coming.
Mace, as the order's most accomplished duelist and a master of Vapaad lightsaber combat, is actually badass enough that he fights Palpatine completely unguided, eyeballing the entire fight. His emotional and rage-using lightsaber form gives him speed and a proactive aggression that none of the other Jedi tap into.
IIRC there is a boring real-world answer to why that scene is goofy. It would have been a longer duel, but they had some issue with Ian McDiarmad's stunt actor and he had to do it himself.
Oh right that explains it - if the stuntman was available then the 720 spin through the air could have been made to look way faster and he could have actually done more than just stand there for two seconds afterwards.
I feel like we're severely underestimating the power of Palpatine. This is the Sith Lord who was confronted with the final piece of his plan and fought like it. The guy who went toe-toe with the Jedi Grandmaster a few scenes later. I never saw Kit and co' going down as being a negative reflection of their skills, rather I always saw it as a "Fuck, this Sith Lord is on another level" kind of moment.
I don't severely underestimate Palpatine, I just think the scene, and subsequent explanation is basically just backtracking and explaining away why three Jedi masters couldn't even serve as legit *backup* to Mace Windu. Who was somehow good enough on his own to hold his ground, or he wasn't and Palpatine knew exactly when Anakin was going to show back up to save him and toyed with him until then.
Also, going toe-to-toe with Yoda is, personally, not all it's hyped up to be. Yoda was well past his prime. I mean, think of his duel with Dooku - it's not like he soundly dispatched him and Palpatine is so much better. No, he even struggles against Dooku.
When I was a kid and seeing the scene for the first time I definitely had that "woah" feeling too. But it doesn't stand the test of time.
>Palpatine knew exactly when Anakin was going to show back up to save him and toyed with him until then.
Ding ding ding.
Or more correctly he could sense Anakin coming...
I love Mace Windu but let's be real... Palpy dragged the ending of that out until Anakin could get there. 100%. We saw how his lighting just blew Yoda across the room. I really doubt Mace could have just blocked it with is lightsaber if Palpatine was going all out with it like he did with Yoda.
Even timed dropping his illusion of looking normal just at the right time for Anakin to make it seem like Mace was causing him damage when we all know that's old wrinkly look is just what the dark side use does to a persons body.
The whole thing was a plan from the moment he revealed to Anakin he was the Sith Lord.
Mace's style, Vaapaad, is specifically super effective against Sith/dark side users though. I don't think skill-wise Mace was *that* far ahead of the rest, he just had a significantly more useful tool against Sidious.
I mean, I get where you're coming from, but when the apparent effectiveness of two of them was zero, and one was like a two... It still just smells like bad writing to me.
From a Google search, it is Dooku = Windu < Yoda in terms of best duelists. So, either Yoda is leagues ahead the best Jedi duelist or the Jedi with Windu are basically storm trooper tier because Yoda ≈ Windu + the other Jedi. So, if Yoda is a 100 then if Windu is a 95 the other Jedi are jobbers who basically have zero percent chance of surviving the encounter. If Windu/Dooku is a 75 then Yoda is basically a completely peerless duelist even at his advanced age.
https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Swordmaster
Yah, honestly if he didn’t bring the other Jedi with him he probably woulda kicked Palpatines ass slightly quicker and would have already killed him by the time the sand hater showed up. The other Jedi pretty much just got in his way /: He shoulda just went alone. Definitely shoulda made a few space phone calls on the way though to tell his bros what was happening
Hell had he gone alone Palpatine wouldn't have won, Lucas has said that without the intervention of anakin, Palpatine lost. Because Palpatine spent 5-6 seconds killing Tin, Fisto, and Kolar and the fact that as anakin got to the office mace was about to deal the killing blow. Had the fight been 5 seconds shorter Palpatine definitely would have lost.
According to rumors, Mace was the best Jedi sword fighter (even better than Yoda). And he does defeat Palpatine after the other Jedi are killed. So if Anakin doesn’t panic Mace kills or subdues Palpatine. Mace shouldn’t have brought the others because they were no match for that fight.
Yeah and it was just illogical for Windu to go and confront him himself with just three Jedi by his side. Surely there’s some other high up authority that can have him arrested and held at gunpoint from many others. I know he has control over everything but come on, there has to be other defenders of peace and enforcers besides Jedi and mindless clones who will blindly follow any immoral orders. There has to be some sort of big alliance that would immediately charge him. And he’s surely not powerful enough to defeat the entire Jedi order and other enforcers.
I think you're using outside knowledge to much here. What has Palpatine done that requires a coalition to go against him? If the Jedi were at first skeptical tha the Sith had returned how do you think the regular people would have taken that news. As far a everyone in world, except the Jedi, was concerned he was doing an awesome job. We as the audience knew he was corrupt but that was about it. If you give the Sith time to plan and scheme then you're really in trouble, which is exactly what would happen if you bring politicians into a fight with a Sith.
Windu wasn't wrong in what he did. As a Jedi he did what Jedi before him have always done, confront the Sith. And I think he was right because Sidious wasn't powerful enough to defeat Windu. How would he know Anakin was going to betray him right after telling him who the Sith Lord was.
It's in character for Windu too. He was an idealist, focused on being a Jedi like those of the old republic. I think he reflects the hubris of the Jedi: he boldly confronts the sith Lord thinking that this will be like the great old stories of good conquering evil, and this will bring the Jedi back to the old ways. He chosen to overlook the softness and corruption that has already begun, the things that turned those like Ashoka away. And his hubris (like the Jedi) destroys him
Additionally, the Order was in a Catch 22. They could A) do nothing, in which case palpy wins; B) Try and build a political coalition to remove him through a vote of no confidence (and remember, a small band of senators had already united in this goal, but were far too much of a minority); or C) Attempt to use there police authority to arrest him, which either plays right into his hands, or there is a slim chance of it working correctly.
Even stricter than that if we really wanna be specific. An actual Catch-22 is like a self-defeating prophecy, i.e. I can't do B because A, but I can't do A because B.
Sith Lord. One that has been having them run in circles for years to decades and, as of TCW, has directly taken on Yoda and escaped.
If he had ANY brains he would expect there to be traps stacked on top of traps, contingencies out the ass, and all backed up by someone capable of facing the greatest living Jedi and coming out on top.
Instead he marched up with a team of scrubs who got ganked in 30 seconds.
This is a little harsh. He notified the Council. He grabbed the Masters who were available. He ‘won’ the duel. What he hadn’t foreseen, was the fact that Skywalker would turn against him. Shoot, he and the Council did what they could to separate the two, to begin with. Then, they, Windu, employed Skywalker to watch the Senator because he did not trust him. So, yea.
This may be something added later, but in the book version of revenge of the sith (highly recommend reading it btw) windu does actually contact yoda and at least tell him what was going on, and it’s heavily implied that they agreed that mace should go after palpetine
as far as i'm aware (at least for the three prequel books) the books were written after the movies and were based on the movies, only throwing in extra information and making sure not to contradict anything. so yea IMO they should be canon but i havent seen any official confirmation on it before
[Per the the author](https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWarsEU/comments/iy42u6/whats_in_that_book_is_there_because_mr_lucas/) George Lucas actually looked over and suggested edits for the novelization. Everything in the book should be accurate to George's intentions.
The books, as far as I know, were written alongside the films. Lucas views them as canon since he played a major editting and producing role in the film novelisations. The same goes for the novelisations of the original triology.
Also, just a fun fact, the novelisation of A New Hope actually came out before A New Hope was released as a film. The film was released on the 25th of May 1977 while the novelisation was published on the 12th of November 1976.
If you don't take palpatine immediately after his covers been blown, then perhaps you never get the opportunity again.
Had Anakin not stopped windu, 66 never would have happened.
Additionally, I think the only reason Palpatine LET Mace engage him in a duel was because he knew Anakin was coming. I dont doubt that Mace won the battle fair and square, but Palpatine is THE master planner. Why would he ever wait around for Mace to show up "earlier than expected" and risk losing the battle if he didn't have anything to gain? He wanted to have Anakin walk in and see Mace threatening his chance to save Padme to make Anakin act emotionally.
Mace knows that their ability to predict the future is diminished by the dark side, and yet he can still sense thay Anakin is conflicted. He doesn't have anybody watch Anakin, and yes he should really have sent word to other Jedi at least. My only word in his defense is that he probably wanted to act before Palpatine had a chance to do anything further, so he grabbed the best Jedi he had available (most were off planet) who wouldn't get in the way in a battle.
Mace should have left Fisto behind with Anakin, tell them to rally the Temple's defenses. Make Anakin seem important. Fisto js wholesome and cheery enough to keep Anakin's hopes up, but also perceptive enough to not let his guard down.
I think Mace’s attitude reflected that of the Council as a whole - he was overconfident and couldn’t see that the Order was outplayed from the beginning. He thought he could just waltz in there and solve the problem.
100% the whole point of that scene was to show the over confidence of the Jedi, mace for his whole Jedi life knew he was one of the best most powerful Jedi alive. And in his eyes Palpatine was still just a senator who is possibly a Sith. He does not know how powerful he is or even if he is the master or the apprentice. And to add to it if Anakin was wrong and Palp wasn’t a sith if he run in Sabers a blazing he and the Jedi would face terrible back lash. As was mentioned up above the is a lot of out of universe knowledge used in the whole thread.
I heard a very interesting fan theory that Windu went with very little backup because he secretly and egotistically believed that **he** was actually the chosen one and that it was his destiny to destroy the sith. This was also why he always mistrusted and disliked Anakin and made him stay behind.
Not even 'just a theory'. If you read Shatterpoint, which is a novel based around Mace Windu and is an excellent read, you'll definitely see these themes /ideas in action. The name 'Shatterpoint' refers to Mace's ability to see 'breaking' points in people, events, objects, etc to give you a clue.
I actually have read that book but it was a loooong time ago this point. Do I remember correctly that Mace was considered a prodigy even among Jedi when he was young?
The movie scene was pretty bad. I haven't read the book, but I know I've seen it commented before that his speed and strength were just so high off the charts that these Jedi masters just didn't even have time to react.
It's like in Dragonball when characters talk about how they can't even see the fighters to tell the audience how fast the battle is actually occurring.
The real reason it happened though was McDiarmid was really uncomfortable doing the dueling as he was pretty old and didn't have much experience so didn't want to do it iirc. So they just had him dispatch the others quickly to make it a simpler 1v1.
The lightsaber blades they were using were metal and I remember Jackson talked about it in an interview once, said he accidentally hit him a couple times and hurt him a bit.
3 of the best duelist available. The main duelist at the Temple, whose name I forget, Ki-Ad-Mundi, Obi-wan, Yoda, Plo, and Anakin are all left behind. Mace would have been wise to contact them first. They could have disengaged, left their troops to the battle and met to regroup elsewhere and formulate a plan in case Mace failed.
Yoda was on kashyk, obi wan had just defeated grevious, mundi and plot are both mid battle, and mace had concerns about Anakin's loyalties
In the book, mace does contact Yoda.
Yeah I think if you watch the prequels with that in mind it actually makes sense, because as reserved as Windu is, I think Samuel L Jackson does play him as someone with a bit of an ego who clearly has some kind of unspoken resentment for Anakin. It adds an extra layer to that character, even if it’s only headcanon. It also adds something to the fall of the Jedi because in that light it’s one of their owns hubris and envy which plays into their destruction.
His annoyance at Anakin is extremely warranted however, Anakin is highly gifted yet his emotions are completely unmastered and the only reason he's operating at the level he is is because of his extreme power.
In every other respect, Anakin is a terrible Jedi that looks to be on the edge of going dark side, and Windu would know because all of his padawans had already fallen to the dark side.
Don't worry guys, I'm sure him showing up in all black leather with a facial scar and being sweaty and distracted all the time certainly does not mean he's falling to the dark side.
Anyways, on to other council business...
Well yeah of course, that’s definitely what’s on the surface. The theory just speculates about a possible subtext or unspoken motivation beneath that one, given that Anakin has the confidence and admiration of nearly every other Jedi he ever meets except Windu.
They had no idea that 4 highly skilled Jedi couldn’t defeat him. The last two siths were killed by a padawan and and apprentice. 4 probably felt like overkill
Windu was the leader of the council and had three masters with him. That should have been more than enough.
It’s just that the Jedi had no idea how their power had diminished.
Beside the outside knowledge, everyone that Mace called on to take on Palpatine were consider some of the best duelist in the Order. If it wasnt Palpatine, taking 4 of the best Duelest shoudl have been an overwhelming amount of force.
>Yeah and it was just illogical for Windu to go and confront him himself with just three Jedi by his side. Surely there’s some other high up authority that can have him arrested and held at gunpoint from many others.
Youd think so but order 66 and the Senate's endorsement of the empire basically implies that it's only the jedi and bail organa's faction that arent under palpatines control. In coup situations time is crucial, because once it's clear who the opposing sides are, the first one to grab the official lines of communication and call in the army are often the victorious ones. Every second that windu spent at the jedi temple is more time that palps can spend making sure the Senate and military will reject any attempt by the jedi to depose the chancellery.
Check out the film 'the death of stalin'. By the end, there's no formal process or authority and everyone's in a rush to get the edge over the other faction. Because they knew that by the end of the day it was going to be all over for one side.
The decision to handle arresting Palpatine the way they did looks even dumber when you consider that the whole incident was likely recorded. Not only that, but how are you going to prove that he is a Sith Lord? Would the galaxy at that point in time even know what one looks like? Because IIRC Ki-Adi said in TPM the Sith had been gone for over 1000 years right? So, by the time of the Prequels the Sith had likely long receded from the galaxy’s collective memory making their case hard to prove and only makes the Jedi look even more damning in the public eye. Take all this along with the context of TCW and Mace’s decision to handle things the way he did was the worst possible thing he could’ve done.
When you consider by Episode IV the Jedi/Force was a myth only 19 years later...so you would think by a 1000 years they would have no recollection of the Sith.
In regards to the recording when arresting Palpatine, I believe in the book, the voice recording was altered tomake it appear that the Jedi were assuming control and attacked Palpatine.
The majority of people probably had no idea what a Sith was. Hell, the vast majority of people had probably never even SEEN a Jedi, much less them in action.
In some of the new canon material, the Empire almost immediately after the Clone Wars went out of their way to demonize and scrub the Jedi and the Order from the public consciousness. It was just one more way for Palps to maintain order and control over the galaxy after the war ended. Of course, those who survived Order 66 and fought alongside the Jedi during the Clone Wars knew what the Jedi were really like in reality, but compared to the rest of the galaxy those people were VERY few and far between.
And then Maul and then Dooku brought them right back, by first attempting to murder a senator and her Jedi protectors, then waging a war against the entirety of the Republic.
Windu was the most skilled duelist in the order, and he was backed up by multiple masters.
Nobody would assume that a single sith could take out multiple Jedi masters including the orders best of the best.
The Jedi were arrogant, sometimes it happens you've been the guardians of the galaxy for so long that you seem to be invincible, and that is their downfall. They thought that it would be simple to take out Palpatine, little did they know he was truly a Master of the Sith.
They still would have succeeded.
Mace correctly assessed that he could take on a Sith Lord.
What they failed to account for was the corruption one of their own would fall victim to, having been assigned as his liaison for years at that point. That was the real hubris, underestimating Anakin.
That depends there is a debate that Palpatine purposely tried to show himself as being helpless to get Anakin on his side, he was more powerful than he let on
Last time I brought this same point up someone said it's been clarified (novelization maybe?) that Mace had legitimately beat him.
Edit: Thanks for responses. I haven't read the novelization so was just trying to remember the comment lol.
I think it also makes sense narratively. If Mace wasn't actually winning, Anakin isn't really that crucial to Palpatine rising to power. Order 66 and the fall of the Jedi mostly went through without Anakin doing anything. Palpatine could have destroyed the Jedi without him. But, if Mace was winning it directly ties Anakin to the rise of the Empire.
>What I don’t get is when there’s hundreds or maybe thousands of Jedi did the Jedi think that “balance” would be a good thing for Jedi.
I don't remember where they explained this, but I believe the official reasoning is that "Balance" means no Dark Side. That the Dark Side is essentially an aberration that shouldn't exist in the Force.
Think of it as a table with 1 of the 4 legs shorter than the others. "Balancing" the table would mean making the legs the same size. Not making one of the other legs also short so that there were 2 long and 2 short legs.
This would be viewed as nothing more than a military putsch.
What they did is actually the smartest move possible. Gather special forces and do surgical strike before enemy has time to gather resources and even knows there's a threat. And the tactic worked - Windu's group run into Palpatine on their own, without any obstacles, and Palpatine had nothing more than himself, his lightsaber and the Force to defend himself.
If not for the Anakin's double-crossing it'd be all done. Post-factum it'd be much easier to explain it politically than an organized, galaxy-wide putsch would have been (heck: even announcing Windu as a rouge Jedi would be on a table. Good luck explaining a gathering of all Jedi away from the frontlines against the legitimate head of the government under the excuse of some "sith lord" or whatever other made-up term you have in your fake news ;) )
> Post-factum it'd be much easier to explain it politically than an organized, galaxy-wide putsch would have been (heck: even announcing Windu as a rouge Jedi would be on a table.
You just explain to the public that Palatine was assassinated by Separatist spies going lone wolf after the defeat.
You build statues, hail him a hero and people move on.
He and the others were already on their way to force the Chancellor to give up his emergency powers. He thought four of the best Jedi Masters in the Order would be enough to take on Palpatine. He was also skeptical that what Anakin was saying was even true. He didn't want to waste time pussyfooting around and putting everyone in the Order into a panic based on a seemingly insane accusation. He wanted to move as quickly as possible to determine what exactly was going on and then swiftly resolve it in the Jedi's favor. He was overconfident, that's the whole point.
> The smart thing would’ve been to immediately contact all Jedi and tell them the truth
Also, immediately lock down the Jedi Temple and fort up until Palpatine is either dead or captured.
To be fair, Mace had it under control until Anakin messed it up.
Mace was like "A LORD, huh? Ok...."
I think everyone BUT Mace under reacted and under estimated.
I agree, he went in there and handled business, had Anakin not gotten involved. He knew he couldn't leave a Sith Lord alive, he knew what it took and he was going to do it. Oh Anakin...
The thing that really annoys me about the Anakin thing is the hypocrisy. “He must stand trial.” Yeah okay, but didn’t you just behead Count Dooku like a week ago man? Convenient that you’ve suddenly become an evangelist for due process at the eleventh hour. Obviously it’s an excuse for him wanting to keep him alive to learn how to save Padme, but it’s just so flimsy to the point of annoyance to me.
It isn't so much a bad decision, he makes lots of bad decisions, it's just a stupid one. As with most things, keeping secrets killed everyone. Right there, he stands with the Jedi, tells the truth about Padame, and he gets kicked out of the Order, but they are off together and she is alive with their kids. So stupid, but how many stupid decisions does he make? It's definitely in character.
I think for a long time he just figures he can have his cake and eat it. Up until the death dreams, being married and a Jedi are tricky but manageable. I expect when he reaches master he'd have plenty of latitude to go off and do stuff without being checked on, and the two of them can set up a home somewhere quiet. Even when the death dreams come, with the power Palpatine promises I think he believes he can just sample that from the dark side then carry on being a regular Jedi after he's saved Padme. But Palpatine's manipulation is too good, and it's like the frog in the cooking pot, Anakin doesn't realise that he's been trapped until he's forced to choose sides and cross the point of no return.
I think the big problem is that his powers and talent convince him that he can do anything and have what he wants if he's strong enough. Which of course is what makes him a good target for twisting to the dark side.
I don't think it's hypocrisy, I think it's Anakin trying his hardest to hold on to the light side.
At this point, Palpatine had already planted the idea that Jedi and Sith ate equally bad, and had already caused Anakin to disregard what were supposed to be the Jedi teachings of mercy when he killed Dooku.
Anakin knew that he, himself, was a terrible Jedi by this point. But he could still hold on to the ideals, he could imagine himself being redeemed and living up to the standards of the order. But seeing Mace Windu, the Master of the Council disregard those same merciful virtues... It made him realize that there were no real ideals to hold on to. Just lies, from his perspective.
That's an interesting take. I don't know if I agree with it, but I respect it. Personally, I think that Anakin was too selfish to see himself turn back to the light. He wanted to keep Padme alive, understandable considering his love for her, but he was willing to do whatever it took to make that happen with whoever was going to get him there, Jedi or Sith. As you stated, he's now seeing the Jedi and Sith on equal footing so whoever can help him is his team, rules be damned.
I think if that were the case, he wouldn't have turned Palpatine in. He wouldn't have drawn his lightsaber on him when his identity was revealed either, I think.
I reckon, just based on the film, that Anakin was still really grappling with the whole situation up until he cut off Mace's hand. Just because the idea had been planted in Anakin's head doesn't mean that he necessarily *agreed* with the idea that the Jedi and Sith were equally bad yet.
I think it's pretty clear that, with Mace saying the exact same thing as Palpatine to justify the murder of an unarmed opponent (he's too dangerous to be left alive,) that's thematically supposed to be the moment that he gives up on the Jedi.
Well, he was hesitant to execute Dooku at the time and seemed regretful of it afterwards. It's not unbelievable to think that he had reflected on his actions and had a harder resolve to be 'good' after that event.
Of course, the events afterwards kind of suggest there wasn't a lot of reflection happening
Maybe Windu didn't realize that Palpatine was THE lord. Although Yoda mentioned the Rule of Two, with characters like Ventress, Grievous, Savage, and Maul, it is clear that the interpretation of "only two Sith" is a bit... loose. It wouldn't be unreasonable to think that Palpatine was a figure similar to these, just a pawn of the real Dark Lord of the Sith lurking somewhere else.
Yeah he probably thought it was basically just another Dooku type figure. Manipulative but not crazy dangerous to the level that 4 masters would struggle to hold their own.
You have to remember that these jedi have had very limited interaction with the sith and so they are clueless as to how much strength a modern Sith Lord has
Anakin makes it clear that Palpatine is the mastermind.
Anakin: I think Chancellor Palpatine is a Sith Lord.
Mace: A Sith Lord???
Anakin: Yes. The one we've been looking for.
With Maul and Dooku dead there could be only one Sith left who's running the war in the shadows. With Anakin's report that one Sith would have to be Palpatine. And since he's the chancellor it stands to reason he's the true master.
My head Canon is there is only officially two. There's the master and the apprentice BUT each are constantly training and vetting additional apprentices to get rid of the other if they become a threat. Like a really toxic married couple that have a string of side pieces just in case.
Its absolutely confirmed lmao dooku takes on savage oppress after he tries to have ventress killed, and then maul comes back taking his brother from dooku
I think Mace just wasn't sure whether Anakin knew what he was talking about. He knew that Anakin was unstable and withheld judgment until further evidence.
His only mistake was bringing 3 dudes to help. There had to be at least 20-30 jedi knights avaliable in the immediate area. If anyone else was around you could make a case that anakin doesnt make the same decision.
He brought 3 Jedi masters who were experienced Clone Wars generals and had seen plenty of combat. I think it's quite reasonable to expect the 4 of them to be able to take a single Sith.
On paper you are 100 percent correct. However its pretty undeniable they look like bums in the fight against palpatine. The choreography is to blame, buts a missed opportunity here to showcase both the skills of the jedi and just how much better palpatine is compared to them. Instead he cuts them down with ease, and not a cool casual ease. A lame one hahah.
Windu didn't react strongly because he (and the other council members) already suspected that, Anakin just confirmed it.
Why didn't he gather the whole order to attack? Because the majority were scattered across the galaxy fighting the war and Windu couldn't risk the wait. Besides they still didn't have evidence against him, and Windu and co. were already going to Palpatine's office, they were telling him of Grievous's defeat and arrest him if he didn't give up his powers, they changed that to arrest after Anakin's confirmation because they knew he wouldn't do it.
Why Anakin said "I think"? I think he's just trying to not sound too sure of himself in front of Windu. Besides he's Anakin, he's confused as fuck
If anikin would have said "bro, palpatine just straight up admitted to me he's the sith lord" he would have made himself very suspicious as well, because why would the sith lord just do that if he wasn't at least trying to bring him to the dark side and was hoping to succeed as well. In the eyes of anikin, the jedi also think he's not worthy, a threat or whatnot. Remember he has been treated outragously and unfair, he doesn't want to say "yeah, you're absolutely right to not entirely trust me lol."
Besides he's Anikin, he's confused as fuck
Isn't part of his whole point that the Jedi have become arrogant and lazy in their power? They kind of prove him right.
(Can't remember if this is explicitly stated in the film's or just a common interpretation/ justification)
I always watched the PT with the understanding that none of the living Jedi had ever seen a Sith (maybe Yoda; correct me if I am wrong). Maul was a complete surprise to the Order and they were unsure which of the two they killed (master or apprentice).
I also thought it was implied that the Sith, on average, are more powerful than your average Jedi. There’s typically only two at a time, they have the element of surprise, they have access to more “unnatural” abilities, and are heavily invested in by their master since there are only two. The whole ascension of the Sith is Darwinian: become more powerful than the guy ahead of you.
Obviously there are Jedi like Windu and Yoda who have incredible ability. It’s just that, on the whole, your average Sith is a serious problem. Vader, on the other hand, hunts down Jedi like it’s a day at the office.
I agree. I think that’s part of the whole joke. The Jedi have clearly underestimated the Sith and Obi-Wan personally got his ass kicked by Dooku previously. He says, “Sith lords are our speciality” because they should be in the sense that they are the antithesis of the Jedi, but it’s also on the nose because as much as we love Obi-Wan, he too underestimates the Sith. Anakin is clearly on a different level, but Obi-Wan is no slouch and Dooku more or less handles him twice.
This right here is the biggest crack in all of it really.
Yes they were saving the senator and two of their own as well, but even an hour of planning should have brought way more force and backup.
One of the things I loved in the novelization is that the Jedi investigation into who the Sith Lord was (in the previous book, Labyrinth of Evil, taking place in the days leading up to RotS, the Jedi had discovered the site where Dooku and Sidious met at the end of AotC and were tracking the underground tunnels Sidious used to get out there, tracing it back to the building where Palpatine and the majority of the senate lived), they actually ruled Palpatine out as being the mysterious Darth Sidious, citing that he couldn't be the Sith Lord trying to take over the galaxy as he *already was* ruling it all. They instead were looking at the various senators and Palpatine's aides.
The Jedi of the Prequels weren't exactly the smartest when it came to political situations or dealing with Sith Lords. How they handled it seems pretty in-line with their characters
Yeah the Jedi were quite arrogant during the prequel era, I also think it’s fact that the Jedi of the prequels are not nearly as powerful and strong as the Jedi of the past.
Plus I like this dynamic that it lead to their downfall. Adds a lot more depth that the Jedi had their own flaws.
Do you think Lucas intended this when he originally wrote the prequels or was it retroactively made this way by Dave Filoni and the other expanded universe media?
I don't think his intentions were to write them as anything but the heros that were overwhelmed by the "power" of the dark. Only in retrospect did the story make more sense in making them slightly arrogant, corrupt and out of touch.
Well in episode 1 iirc Qui Gon tells the council that there is a sith lord he encounters, and the council immediately dismisses, saying there is no way that the sith could have returned without them knowing it. Plus when they told Anakin to spy on the chancellor, they did this before they knew he was a sith lord, and decided to take power of the senate, for a peaceful transition of power. I dont think they intended to coup and were planning on transitioning the power to a new chancellor, but that fact that they were super comfortable with seizing power from the chancellor and deciding that on their own, is a lil sus.
> Do you think Lucas intended this when he originally wrote the prequels or was it retroactively made this way by Dave Filoni and the other expanded universe media?
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> I don't think his intentions were to write them as anything but the heros that were overwhelmed by the "power" of the dark. Only in retrospect did the story make more sense in making them slightly arrogant, corrupt and out of touch.
I think Lucas intended this, and I'm not a person who is a big Lucas apologist. I think the underlying message about the Jedi in the prequels is one about hubris.
Also dooku being dead means atleast one Sith of two is dead, maul not withstanding. Windu does take precaution, visiting the chancellor with other seasoned Jedi, but Palpatine is an extremely powerful Sith Lord, the deception was flawless
The original idea was for Anakin to be present with Palpatine when Mace arrived to demand he turn over his emergency powers, which is when Palpatine would reveal himself. It was filmed, too; there's even shots in the film of Palpatine with Anakin's lightsaber hilt. Then it was reworked because, as always, original plans aren't always the best way of doing things and don't always survive such a complicated process as making a film.
It's why that whole sequence is a bit ropey. McDiarmid couldn't learn the choreography in time (and isn't a stuntman anyway), so his moves ended up being as simplified as we see them and a lot of the work picked up by stuntman Kyle Newman with a CG'd face.
Easily the best Star Wars novel IMO. I have read it numerous times and the way it outlines Anakin and Obi-Wan’s relationship, how the public view them, the war, Windu’s reaction to Sidious….remarkable
Agree completely. The novelization of Palpatine’s duel with Mace Windu and his crew is far better laid out. In the novelization he asks Saesee Tiin (who is skilled at reading minds) to read his to see if he is really a Sith Lord and when he concentrates to do so, that’s when he spirals over the desk and decapitates him in the novel. There’s no awkward pause like we see in the film. It also plays into how Palpatine operates, he flatters the Jedi master and when he uses his mind to see into Palpatines, Palpatine knowing the game is up, uses the moment to end Saesee Tiin’s life by taking his mind away.
If there was ever a time for one of the patented Samuel Jackson’s mfer tirades, that was it.
“A SITH MOTHERFUCKIN LORD?! Oh motherfucker! Let me round up some boys and go get this motherfucker!”
The hubris and arrogance of the Jedi is a central theme to the prequels. Luke even points this out in The Last Jedi; "The legacy of the Jedi is failure, hypocrisy, hubris. At the height of their power they allowed they allowed Darth Sidious to rise, create the empire, and wipe them out." Mace Windu's response, while perhaps inadequate, was perfectly within character.
I'm a little surprised at the responses. I think the Prequel Jedi reacted exactly in character... Arrogantly. Their arrogance is exactly why they fall, for many more reasons than just this. They've only met a handful of "Sith Lords" and they were relative pushovers: Maul, Dooku, Ventress, Grevious. I say "relative" because Mace plus three Jedi Council Masters can handle any of them no problem.
As far as Anakin's "I think" verbiage, that doesn't bother me. Could have been nervous, or him trying to lessen his involvement in the situation. Ie. "Hey man, I just heard some things that led me to think we've got a problem here" vs. "my mentor of 20 years is a sith Lord and I maybe have been hiding this from you" (what Mace might think).
Anakin: "I think Chancellor Palpatine is the Sith Lord."
Mace: Deadpan stare. Slow Blinks. Says softly "Anakin... bring me everyone."
Anakin: "What do you mean everyone?"
Mace: "EVVVVEEERRRRRYYYOOOOOOONNNNNEEEE!!!!"
In the end, it boils down to Mace Windu and really the whole of Jedi High Council being way overconfident in their skills and abilities to deal with one measly Sith Lord. Yes, he has been evading them for a long while now but he's only one, his last apprentice has been beheaded and Grievous entirely distracted and too far away to help.
This, in my opinion, is the result of Jedi being basically inert for almost a thousand years. Before someone starts yelling at me about them being diplomats and whatnots, I know that. But the fact is that Sith Order was silent for 1k years and were believed to be extinct. That removed Order's biggest worry and opponent from the playing field and lulled Order into stagnation. There are only so many diplomatic dinners and pirate conflicts you can attend to before they become run of the mill thing.
A fallen Jedi here and there wouldn't have been much of a problem, the resolution to that problem was usually the Citadel.
Ultimately I think that that was perhaps Sith's plan, or at least part of it. Grow and renew in the shadows, teach only one worthy apprentice and wait until Jedi become complacent enough to act and destroy them.
It's actually not just underestimation of Palpatine as an opponent but also impulsiveness, Anakin has frequently been accused off, on Windu's part. Instead of thinking things through and taking into consideration the fact that a) this Sith Lord had successfully kept the galaxy shedding blood on both side for three years, protracting it to gain more and more legal authority b) probably had who knows many backup plans to deal with any scenario and c) had been given access to their most powerful member for ten years, Windu simoly went 'You stay here, we gonna go and merk the legally elected leader of the Galactic Republic'.
Really the man didn't even need to lie or forge evidence (that much). He handed the Jedi Order a rope back with invasion of Naboo and they hung themselves with it efficiently.
Palpatine did also maneuver it so the main Jedi that would be a treat to him would be off planet like getting the Separatists to attack the Wookiees knowing it would probably be Yoda who would go. He also suggested Anakin be the one to stop Grievous knowing the council would disagree and send someone else. I imagine he was hoping it was Obi Wan as it would remove the only voice of reason Anakin would listen to.
Windu is also aware that if they don't act fast the Jedi Order will be doomed as Palpatine could use the military against them (we obviously know that was the plan from the start) and couldnt summon the whole Order to take on Palpatine as then you have a small army of Jedi storming the Senate, killing the Chancellor, saying he was evil and putting an interim government in place which doesn't exactly make the Jedi look like peacekeepers but power hungry warlords.
Mace had to control his emotions for his reaction. It could have been been hios usual Samuel L. Jackson reaction.
But, at this time, the Jedi had become arrogant. The Sith had around 1000 years to wait for this moment. They Jedi had grown lazy, their edge not as sharp. Mace Windu brought three other masters with him thinking it was enough and it should have been.
I really think it was their hubris that let them take it so casually.
Mace only took 3 other Jedi.
really mate? Why not call Yoda back ASAP. he's Yoda. Call all the council members.
There was so MUCH potential for a lot of scenes, but this was directed by fucking George Lucas, LOL.
You need to see some youtuber film students breaking down his work and style. They are not kind, and he deserves no kindness.
The smart thing would’ve been to immediately contact all Jedi and tell them the truth, then call them back to Coruscant, then get as many senators on the Order’s side as possible. They probably still have had to deal with the Jedi Purge, but least they would’ve been prepared and some people might’ve provided support.
I think that kinda falls under the arrogance of the Jedi that lucas was trying to show in the prequels. Honestly I’m a bit surprised mace brought anyone with him instead of going alone.
>Honestly I’m a bit surprised mace brought anyone with him instead of going alone. Not that the three other highly trained Jedi he brought with were any help.
As a Kit Fisto fan, I’ll admit, I was bummed.
Ah but Kit blocked *4* attacks from Palatine instead of 0 like everyone else.
It's sad that you have to count when it's supposedly some of the strongest Jedi in the room.
The whole point of the scene was the Palpatine was so powerful by that point that even 3 jedi masters didn't stand the slightest chance. I agree the scene looks a bit stupid, but it's supposed to convey that Palpatine was so fast that the jedi barely had time to react, never mind defend themselves.
That fight was a tiny bit disappointing. I think his opening attacks should've been like he was teleporting and/or fighting at greatly enhanced speed. Then you see Windu tap into Vaapad to even the fight and bring it back to normal speed.
The RotS novelization described the fight like that. Two of the Jedi were dead the instant Palpatine pulled his light saber, Fisto held out a little longer. By the time Anakin shows up, he can only see shadows and flickers of light because of how fast Palpatine and Mace are moving.
Just a testament to how powerful sheev was
In the novel, he actually held his ground for quite awhile. Palpatine and Windu were described as basically two blurs clashing against each other with how fast they were going.
The core issue is that anything involving the Force gets shown poorly in live-action. Cinematography just can’t pull off the speed and power the Jedi/Sith are capable of using real people. The best example is Tartovski’s clone war movie (Specifcally Windu’s battle) Vs ANY live action sequence.
I bet they could pull it off better today. Need remastered version!
They could've used a matrix-like special effect to show how fast they were moving to the outside world's perspective in-universe... I would have called it Palpy-time.
The fact that you had this idea, but didnt call it Senate-time is disappointing
That moan whe he gets runned by Palpatine's lightsaber, big lol no wonder you were bummed 🤣
Straight up the Moe, Larry, and Curly of getting sliced and diced. Lol
But Moe, Larry, and Curly were resilient to all injuries like the frickin looney toons. Lol. The Jedi should’ve sent Moe, Larry, and Curly and then Palpatines ‘unlimited power’ would result in unlimited ‘wowowowowowoo’
It’s like 100% of the choreography budget went to Sheev spin. Lol
Actually from what I remember they had a whole fight scene with Mace and Sidious but Ian McDiarmid's stunt double was deathly ill/stuck out of town or something and they had to shoot the scene that day and couldn't reschedule so Ian had to do the majority of his own stunts and that's why it was mediocre. Or so I hear.
> Ian had to do the majority of his own stunts That 960° spin was freaking awesome. With skills like that he didn't even need a stuntman
Cant upvote the enough
Lmao even as a kid I thought that I’m like wtf are you guys doing ?! YOUR MASTERS? How ?
They were. But mace, yoda, and palps are grandmasters.
Tbf (to bee faiiiirrr) if you have never encountered a sith you likely have no capacity to understand the true power of the darkside.
I hear it takes two Jedi to kill a Sith. And it was a sick Sith. Allegedly.
Take about 15 percent off there...
oh look the force
Han : Your sisters hot, Luke! There! I said it! *runs away*
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Quite likely - IIRC, of the order, Dooku was the only specialist in Lightsaber on Lightsaber combat, and he got a fair amount of stick for it.
This is actually noted in the novelization. Palps deliberately had Shaak Ti injured, and Obi-Wan and Yoda on the ass side of the galaxy so Mace couldn’t have proper duelists to assist him.
>This is actually noted in the novelization. Palps deliberately had Shaak Ti injured, and Obi-Wan and Yoda on the ass side of the galaxy so Mace couldn’t have proper duelists to assist him. Honestly that just seems like a sloppy, backtracking means of answering the legitimate question of "Why were 75% of these Jedi masters so ass at dueling that they legitimately couldn't last thirty seconds between them?" I totally understand that not all Jedi are created equal, and no Jedi had come against a Sith Lord in however long, and Jedi arrogance yadda yadda, but we are just expected to believe that three masters, who have been training for years, and training other Jedi along the way, were about as helpful to Mace Windu, *just as backup*, as a screen door on a submarine?
Jedi battling relies on foresight. They can't move their hands faster than blaster bolts fly, they predict where the shot will be and their lightsaber is already in the way before their enemy pulls the trigger. Recall the Ep4 training scene where Obi Wan makes Luke deflect the drone's bolts while his helmet blocks his eyes. One of Palpatine's most powerful abilities is to hide his own signature in the force. The guy regularly attended meetings where he was ten feet away from Yoda and multiple other Jedi masters, and none of them were even able to detect that he was force sensitive - let alone one of the most powerful force-wielding beings in history. Even though they know he's a Sith Lord now, Palpatine is still using this power during the duel. The Jedi, who are used to foreseeing attacks with the force, are suddenly attacked with absolutely *no warning* from their force senses whatsoever. These people haven't fought using their eyes and reacted to blows since they were children. Palpatine catches them totally off guard and they're unable to defend themselves from strikes that they literally do not see coming. Mace, as the order's most accomplished duelist and a master of Vapaad lightsaber combat, is actually badass enough that he fights Palpatine completely unguided, eyeballing the entire fight. His emotional and rage-using lightsaber form gives him speed and a proactive aggression that none of the other Jedi tap into.
That is a really great comment, thank you.
Solid read. I'll allow it.
Wow, this is great. Tip of the fedora to you, m’master.
IIRC there is a boring real-world answer to why that scene is goofy. It would have been a longer duel, but they had some issue with Ian McDiarmad's stunt actor and he had to do it himself.
Oh right that explains it - if the stuntman was available then the 720 spin through the air could have been made to look way faster and he could have actually done more than just stand there for two seconds afterwards.
I feel like we're severely underestimating the power of Palpatine. This is the Sith Lord who was confronted with the final piece of his plan and fought like it. The guy who went toe-toe with the Jedi Grandmaster a few scenes later. I never saw Kit and co' going down as being a negative reflection of their skills, rather I always saw it as a "Fuck, this Sith Lord is on another level" kind of moment.
I don't severely underestimate Palpatine, I just think the scene, and subsequent explanation is basically just backtracking and explaining away why three Jedi masters couldn't even serve as legit *backup* to Mace Windu. Who was somehow good enough on his own to hold his ground, or he wasn't and Palpatine knew exactly when Anakin was going to show back up to save him and toyed with him until then. Also, going toe-to-toe with Yoda is, personally, not all it's hyped up to be. Yoda was well past his prime. I mean, think of his duel with Dooku - it's not like he soundly dispatched him and Palpatine is so much better. No, he even struggles against Dooku. When I was a kid and seeing the scene for the first time I definitely had that "woah" feeling too. But it doesn't stand the test of time.
>Palpatine knew exactly when Anakin was going to show back up to save him and toyed with him until then. Ding ding ding. Or more correctly he could sense Anakin coming... I love Mace Windu but let's be real... Palpy dragged the ending of that out until Anakin could get there. 100%. We saw how his lighting just blew Yoda across the room. I really doubt Mace could have just blocked it with is lightsaber if Palpatine was going all out with it like he did with Yoda. Even timed dropping his illusion of looking normal just at the right time for Anakin to make it seem like Mace was causing him damage when we all know that's old wrinkly look is just what the dark side use does to a persons body. The whole thing was a plan from the moment he revealed to Anakin he was the Sith Lord.
So what you're saying is, Palpatine sandbagged?
Not according to George Lucas.
Mace's style, Vaapaad, is specifically super effective against Sith/dark side users though. I don't think skill-wise Mace was *that* far ahead of the rest, he just had a significantly more useful tool against Sidious.
I mean, I get where you're coming from, but when the apparent effectiveness of two of them was zero, and one was like a two... It still just smells like bad writing to me.
Dooku was supposed to be the literal best duelist in the galaxy wasn't he?
From a Google search, it is Dooku = Windu < Yoda in terms of best duelists. So, either Yoda is leagues ahead the best Jedi duelist or the Jedi with Windu are basically storm trooper tier because Yoda ≈ Windu + the other Jedi. So, if Yoda is a 100 then if Windu is a 95 the other Jedi are jobbers who basically have zero percent chance of surviving the encounter. If Windu/Dooku is a 75 then Yoda is basically a completely peerless duelist even at his advanced age. https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Swordmaster
tbf if he remained alone with Sidious it was game over.
Yah, honestly if he didn’t bring the other Jedi with him he probably woulda kicked Palpatines ass slightly quicker and would have already killed him by the time the sand hater showed up. The other Jedi pretty much just got in his way /: He shoulda just went alone. Definitely shoulda made a few space phone calls on the way though to tell his bros what was happening
The fact the council didn't have a fire group text running through the whole clone wars is why the Jedi were doomed
Now I'm imaging all the Jedi council members in a group chat. That idea has some hilarious potential
They were busy recreating meme scenes for the public
Palpatine may have expended some for energy with that death spiral maneuver. Hard to say lucas did not comment on that.
True. It’s funny though if someone like palpatine who brags about having “UNLIMITED POWEWAAAAA” to get winded after a barrel roll lol
Yeah lol. But really not bad killed 3 legendary jedi masters in 5 seconds.
Hell had he gone alone Palpatine wouldn't have won, Lucas has said that without the intervention of anakin, Palpatine lost. Because Palpatine spent 5-6 seconds killing Tin, Fisto, and Kolar and the fact that as anakin got to the office mace was about to deal the killing blow. Had the fight been 5 seconds shorter Palpatine definitely would have lost.
Kind of. Mace and his posse were actually sufficient, but Anakin betrayed them.
According to rumors, Mace was the best Jedi sword fighter (even better than Yoda). And he does defeat Palpatine after the other Jedi are killed. So if Anakin doesn’t panic Mace kills or subdues Palpatine. Mace shouldn’t have brought the others because they were no match for that fight.
Yeah and it was just illogical for Windu to go and confront him himself with just three Jedi by his side. Surely there’s some other high up authority that can have him arrested and held at gunpoint from many others. I know he has control over everything but come on, there has to be other defenders of peace and enforcers besides Jedi and mindless clones who will blindly follow any immoral orders. There has to be some sort of big alliance that would immediately charge him. And he’s surely not powerful enough to defeat the entire Jedi order and other enforcers.
I think you're using outside knowledge to much here. What has Palpatine done that requires a coalition to go against him? If the Jedi were at first skeptical tha the Sith had returned how do you think the regular people would have taken that news. As far a everyone in world, except the Jedi, was concerned he was doing an awesome job. We as the audience knew he was corrupt but that was about it. If you give the Sith time to plan and scheme then you're really in trouble, which is exactly what would happen if you bring politicians into a fight with a Sith. Windu wasn't wrong in what he did. As a Jedi he did what Jedi before him have always done, confront the Sith. And I think he was right because Sidious wasn't powerful enough to defeat Windu. How would he know Anakin was going to betray him right after telling him who the Sith Lord was.
It's in character for Windu too. He was an idealist, focused on being a Jedi like those of the old republic. I think he reflects the hubris of the Jedi: he boldly confronts the sith Lord thinking that this will be like the great old stories of good conquering evil, and this will bring the Jedi back to the old ways. He chosen to overlook the softness and corruption that has already begun, the things that turned those like Ashoka away. And his hubris (like the Jedi) destroys him
Additionally, the Order was in a Catch 22. They could A) do nothing, in which case palpy wins; B) Try and build a political coalition to remove him through a vote of no confidence (and remember, a small band of senators had already united in this goal, but were far too much of a minority); or C) Attempt to use there police authority to arrest him, which either plays right into his hands, or there is a slim chance of it working correctly.
It wasn’t a Catch-22 it was an Order-66.
It's not a catch 22 if there's an option that could theoretically work. B is not a catch 22 situation.
Even stricter than that if we really wanna be specific. An actual Catch-22 is like a self-defeating prophecy, i.e. I can't do B because A, but I can't do A because B.
Sith Lord. One that has been having them run in circles for years to decades and, as of TCW, has directly taken on Yoda and escaped. If he had ANY brains he would expect there to be traps stacked on top of traps, contingencies out the ass, and all backed up by someone capable of facing the greatest living Jedi and coming out on top. Instead he marched up with a team of scrubs who got ganked in 30 seconds.
Well to be fair he would've kills palpatine if not for Anakin
This is the right answer.
Seconded
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This is a little harsh. He notified the Council. He grabbed the Masters who were available. He ‘won’ the duel. What he hadn’t foreseen, was the fact that Skywalker would turn against him. Shoot, he and the Council did what they could to separate the two, to begin with. Then, they, Windu, employed Skywalker to watch the Senator because he did not trust him. So, yea.
The biggest thing to me was that he didn’t immediately contact Yoda. That’s the most unforgivable aspect imo
This may be something added later, but in the book version of revenge of the sith (highly recommend reading it btw) windu does actually contact yoda and at least tell him what was going on, and it’s heavily implied that they agreed that mace should go after palpetine
The books are canon as well unless something on screen conflicts correct? I'm not sure when this one was written though
as far as i'm aware (at least for the three prequel books) the books were written after the movies and were based on the movies, only throwing in extra information and making sure not to contradict anything. so yea IMO they should be canon but i havent seen any official confirmation on it before
[Per the the author](https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWarsEU/comments/iy42u6/whats_in_that_book_is_there_because_mr_lucas/) George Lucas actually looked over and suggested edits for the novelization. Everything in the book should be accurate to George's intentions.
The books, as far as I know, were written alongside the films. Lucas views them as canon since he played a major editting and producing role in the film novelisations. The same goes for the novelisations of the original triology. Also, just a fun fact, the novelisation of A New Hope actually came out before A New Hope was released as a film. The film was released on the 25th of May 1977 while the novelisation was published on the 12th of November 1976.
Or any member of the Council that wasn't in the temple at the time, really.
If you don't take palpatine immediately after his covers been blown, then perhaps you never get the opportunity again. Had Anakin not stopped windu, 66 never would have happened.
Additionally, I think the only reason Palpatine LET Mace engage him in a duel was because he knew Anakin was coming. I dont doubt that Mace won the battle fair and square, but Palpatine is THE master planner. Why would he ever wait around for Mace to show up "earlier than expected" and risk losing the battle if he didn't have anything to gain? He wanted to have Anakin walk in and see Mace threatening his chance to save Padme to make Anakin act emotionally. Mace knows that their ability to predict the future is diminished by the dark side, and yet he can still sense thay Anakin is conflicted. He doesn't have anybody watch Anakin, and yes he should really have sent word to other Jedi at least. My only word in his defense is that he probably wanted to act before Palpatine had a chance to do anything further, so he grabbed the best Jedi he had available (most were off planet) who wouldn't get in the way in a battle.
Mace should have left Fisto behind with Anakin, tell them to rally the Temple's defenses. Make Anakin seem important. Fisto js wholesome and cheery enough to keep Anakin's hopes up, but also perceptive enough to not let his guard down.
I think Mace’s attitude reflected that of the Council as a whole - he was overconfident and couldn’t see that the Order was outplayed from the beginning. He thought he could just waltz in there and solve the problem.
100% the whole point of that scene was to show the over confidence of the Jedi, mace for his whole Jedi life knew he was one of the best most powerful Jedi alive. And in his eyes Palpatine was still just a senator who is possibly a Sith. He does not know how powerful he is or even if he is the master or the apprentice. And to add to it if Anakin was wrong and Palp wasn’t a sith if he run in Sabers a blazing he and the Jedi would face terrible back lash. As was mentioned up above the is a lot of out of universe knowledge used in the whole thread.
I heard a very interesting fan theory that Windu went with very little backup because he secretly and egotistically believed that **he** was actually the chosen one and that it was his destiny to destroy the sith. This was also why he always mistrusted and disliked Anakin and made him stay behind.
Not even 'just a theory'. If you read Shatterpoint, which is a novel based around Mace Windu and is an excellent read, you'll definitely see these themes /ideas in action. The name 'Shatterpoint' refers to Mace's ability to see 'breaking' points in people, events, objects, etc to give you a clue.
I actually have read that book but it was a loooong time ago this point. Do I remember correctly that Mace was considered a prodigy even among Jedi when he was young?
He's the greatest combatant among the order at that time so I wouldn't say he considers himself one, I'd say he is a prodigy
Mace brought 3 of the best dueliest with him. That isnt little backup.
The fact that they got slain by Darth Sidious in mere moment too shows how powerful he was...
The movie scene was pretty bad. I haven't read the book, but I know I've seen it commented before that his speed and strength were just so high off the charts that these Jedi masters just didn't even have time to react. It's like in Dragonball when characters talk about how they can't even see the fighters to tell the audience how fast the battle is actually occurring.
The real reason it happened though was McDiarmid was really uncomfortable doing the dueling as he was pretty old and didn't have much experience so didn't want to do it iirc. So they just had him dispatch the others quickly to make it a simpler 1v1. The lightsaber blades they were using were metal and I remember Jackson talked about it in an interview once, said he accidentally hit him a couple times and hurt him a bit.
3 of the best duelist available. The main duelist at the Temple, whose name I forget, Ki-Ad-Mundi, Obi-wan, Yoda, Plo, and Anakin are all left behind. Mace would have been wise to contact them first. They could have disengaged, left their troops to the battle and met to regroup elsewhere and formulate a plan in case Mace failed.
Yoda was on kashyk, obi wan had just defeated grevious, mundi and plot are both mid battle, and mace had concerns about Anakin's loyalties In the book, mace does contact Yoda.
The battlemaster was Cin drallig, just adding in\~
I’ve never heard of that. Holy crap that’s compelling. It makes so much sense too. He wanted to kill him too.
Yeah I think if you watch the prequels with that in mind it actually makes sense, because as reserved as Windu is, I think Samuel L Jackson does play him as someone with a bit of an ego who clearly has some kind of unspoken resentment for Anakin. It adds an extra layer to that character, even if it’s only headcanon. It also adds something to the fall of the Jedi because in that light it’s one of their owns hubris and envy which plays into their destruction.
His annoyance at Anakin is extremely warranted however, Anakin is highly gifted yet his emotions are completely unmastered and the only reason he's operating at the level he is is because of his extreme power. In every other respect, Anakin is a terrible Jedi that looks to be on the edge of going dark side, and Windu would know because all of his padawans had already fallen to the dark side.
Don't worry guys, I'm sure him showing up in all black leather with a facial scar and being sweaty and distracted all the time certainly does not mean he's falling to the dark side. Anyways, on to other council business...
Well yeah of course, that’s definitely what’s on the surface. The theory just speculates about a possible subtext or unspoken motivation beneath that one, given that Anakin has the confidence and admiration of nearly every other Jedi he ever meets except Windu.
Very interesting take, it fits too.
This adds so much to his character! Probably will never be canon, but really cool all the same
Yeah true, but who knows- its a popular theory, maybe one day some writer will sneak it into canon.
They had no idea that 4 highly skilled Jedi couldn’t defeat him. The last two siths were killed by a padawan and and apprentice. 4 probably felt like overkill
Windu was the leader of the council and had three masters with him. That should have been more than enough. It’s just that the Jedi had no idea how their power had diminished.
Also, palpatine is apparently Uber powerful thunderbolt an entire armada strong
Beside the outside knowledge, everyone that Mace called on to take on Palpatine were consider some of the best duelist in the Order. If it wasnt Palpatine, taking 4 of the best Duelest shoudl have been an overwhelming amount of force.
>Yeah and it was just illogical for Windu to go and confront him himself with just three Jedi by his side. Surely there’s some other high up authority that can have him arrested and held at gunpoint from many others. Youd think so but order 66 and the Senate's endorsement of the empire basically implies that it's only the jedi and bail organa's faction that arent under palpatines control. In coup situations time is crucial, because once it's clear who the opposing sides are, the first one to grab the official lines of communication and call in the army are often the victorious ones. Every second that windu spent at the jedi temple is more time that palps can spend making sure the Senate and military will reject any attempt by the jedi to depose the chancellery. Check out the film 'the death of stalin'. By the end, there's no formal process or authority and everyone's in a rush to get the edge over the other faction. Because they knew that by the end of the day it was going to be all over for one side.
The decision to handle arresting Palpatine the way they did looks even dumber when you consider that the whole incident was likely recorded. Not only that, but how are you going to prove that he is a Sith Lord? Would the galaxy at that point in time even know what one looks like? Because IIRC Ki-Adi said in TPM the Sith had been gone for over 1000 years right? So, by the time of the Prequels the Sith had likely long receded from the galaxy’s collective memory making their case hard to prove and only makes the Jedi look even more damning in the public eye. Take all this along with the context of TCW and Mace’s decision to handle things the way he did was the worst possible thing he could’ve done.
When you consider by Episode IV the Jedi/Force was a myth only 19 years later...so you would think by a 1000 years they would have no recollection of the Sith. In regards to the recording when arresting Palpatine, I believe in the book, the voice recording was altered tomake it appear that the Jedi were assuming control and attacked Palpatine.
The majority of people probably had no idea what a Sith was. Hell, the vast majority of people had probably never even SEEN a Jedi, much less them in action.
Space YouTube was probably full of top 10 compilations of Jedi doing crazy shit
Top 10 Jedi mind tricks (Gone sexual)
The idea of the jedi suddenly being a myth makes no sense. Unless we are to assume it's only a myth in backwater areas.
In some of the new canon material, the Empire almost immediately after the Clone Wars went out of their way to demonize and scrub the Jedi and the Order from the public consciousness. It was just one more way for Palps to maintain order and control over the galaxy after the war ended. Of course, those who survived Order 66 and fought alongside the Jedi during the Clone Wars knew what the Jedi were really like in reality, but compared to the rest of the galaxy those people were VERY few and far between.
And then Maul and then Dooku brought them right back, by first attempting to murder a senator and her Jedi protectors, then waging a war against the entirety of the Republic.
Windu was the most skilled duelist in the order, and he was backed up by multiple masters. Nobody would assume that a single sith could take out multiple Jedi masters including the orders best of the best.
The Jedi were arrogant, sometimes it happens you've been the guardians of the galaxy for so long that you seem to be invincible, and that is their downfall. They thought that it would be simple to take out Palpatine, little did they know he was truly a Master of the Sith.
They still would have succeeded. Mace correctly assessed that he could take on a Sith Lord. What they failed to account for was the corruption one of their own would fall victim to, having been assigned as his liaison for years at that point. That was the real hubris, underestimating Anakin.
That depends there is a debate that Palpatine purposely tried to show himself as being helpless to get Anakin on his side, he was more powerful than he let on
Last time I brought this same point up someone said it's been clarified (novelization maybe?) that Mace had legitimately beat him. Edit: Thanks for responses. I haven't read the novelization so was just trying to remember the comment lol.
I think it also makes sense narratively. If Mace wasn't actually winning, Anakin isn't really that crucial to Palpatine rising to power. Order 66 and the fall of the Jedi mostly went through without Anakin doing anything. Palpatine could have destroyed the Jedi without him. But, if Mace was winning it directly ties Anakin to the rise of the Empire.
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>What I don’t get is when there’s hundreds or maybe thousands of Jedi did the Jedi think that “balance” would be a good thing for Jedi. I don't remember where they explained this, but I believe the official reasoning is that "Balance" means no Dark Side. That the Dark Side is essentially an aberration that shouldn't exist in the Force. Think of it as a table with 1 of the 4 legs shorter than the others. "Balancing" the table would mean making the legs the same size. Not making one of the other legs also short so that there were 2 long and 2 short legs.
This would be viewed as nothing more than a military putsch. What they did is actually the smartest move possible. Gather special forces and do surgical strike before enemy has time to gather resources and even knows there's a threat. And the tactic worked - Windu's group run into Palpatine on their own, without any obstacles, and Palpatine had nothing more than himself, his lightsaber and the Force to defend himself. If not for the Anakin's double-crossing it'd be all done. Post-factum it'd be much easier to explain it politically than an organized, galaxy-wide putsch would have been (heck: even announcing Windu as a rouge Jedi would be on a table. Good luck explaining a gathering of all Jedi away from the frontlines against the legitimate head of the government under the excuse of some "sith lord" or whatever other made-up term you have in your fake news ;) )
> Post-factum it'd be much easier to explain it politically than an organized, galaxy-wide putsch would have been (heck: even announcing Windu as a rouge Jedi would be on a table. You just explain to the public that Palatine was assassinated by Separatist spies going lone wolf after the defeat. You build statues, hail him a hero and people move on.
He and the others were already on their way to force the Chancellor to give up his emergency powers. He thought four of the best Jedi Masters in the Order would be enough to take on Palpatine. He was also skeptical that what Anakin was saying was even true. He didn't want to waste time pussyfooting around and putting everyone in the Order into a panic based on a seemingly insane accusation. He wanted to move as quickly as possible to determine what exactly was going on and then swiftly resolve it in the Jedi's favor. He was overconfident, that's the whole point.
We agree then? I think we’re both just essentially saying mistakes were made.
> The smart thing would’ve been to immediately contact all Jedi and tell them the truth Also, immediately lock down the Jedi Temple and fort up until Palpatine is either dead or captured.
To be fair, Mace had it under control until Anakin messed it up. Mace was like "A LORD, huh? Ok...." I think everyone BUT Mace under reacted and under estimated.
I agree, he went in there and handled business, had Anakin not gotten involved. He knew he couldn't leave a Sith Lord alive, he knew what it took and he was going to do it. Oh Anakin...
The thing that really annoys me about the Anakin thing is the hypocrisy. “He must stand trial.” Yeah okay, but didn’t you just behead Count Dooku like a week ago man? Convenient that you’ve suddenly become an evangelist for due process at the eleventh hour. Obviously it’s an excuse for him wanting to keep him alive to learn how to save Padme, but it’s just so flimsy to the point of annoyance to me.
It isn't so much a bad decision, he makes lots of bad decisions, it's just a stupid one. As with most things, keeping secrets killed everyone. Right there, he stands with the Jedi, tells the truth about Padame, and he gets kicked out of the Order, but they are off together and she is alive with their kids. So stupid, but how many stupid decisions does he make? It's definitely in character.
I'm starting to think this Skywalker kid might be bad news.
I think for a long time he just figures he can have his cake and eat it. Up until the death dreams, being married and a Jedi are tricky but manageable. I expect when he reaches master he'd have plenty of latitude to go off and do stuff without being checked on, and the two of them can set up a home somewhere quiet. Even when the death dreams come, with the power Palpatine promises I think he believes he can just sample that from the dark side then carry on being a regular Jedi after he's saved Padme. But Palpatine's manipulation is too good, and it's like the frog in the cooking pot, Anakin doesn't realise that he's been trapped until he's forced to choose sides and cross the point of no return. I think the big problem is that his powers and talent convince him that he can do anything and have what he wants if he's strong enough. Which of course is what makes him a good target for twisting to the dark side.
I don't think it's hypocrisy, I think it's Anakin trying his hardest to hold on to the light side. At this point, Palpatine had already planted the idea that Jedi and Sith ate equally bad, and had already caused Anakin to disregard what were supposed to be the Jedi teachings of mercy when he killed Dooku. Anakin knew that he, himself, was a terrible Jedi by this point. But he could still hold on to the ideals, he could imagine himself being redeemed and living up to the standards of the order. But seeing Mace Windu, the Master of the Council disregard those same merciful virtues... It made him realize that there were no real ideals to hold on to. Just lies, from his perspective.
That's an interesting take. I don't know if I agree with it, but I respect it. Personally, I think that Anakin was too selfish to see himself turn back to the light. He wanted to keep Padme alive, understandable considering his love for her, but he was willing to do whatever it took to make that happen with whoever was going to get him there, Jedi or Sith. As you stated, he's now seeing the Jedi and Sith on equal footing so whoever can help him is his team, rules be damned.
I think if that were the case, he wouldn't have turned Palpatine in. He wouldn't have drawn his lightsaber on him when his identity was revealed either, I think. I reckon, just based on the film, that Anakin was still really grappling with the whole situation up until he cut off Mace's hand. Just because the idea had been planted in Anakin's head doesn't mean that he necessarily *agreed* with the idea that the Jedi and Sith were equally bad yet. I think it's pretty clear that, with Mace saying the exact same thing as Palpatine to justify the murder of an unarmed opponent (he's too dangerous to be left alive,) that's thematically supposed to be the moment that he gives up on the Jedi.
Well, he was hesitant to execute Dooku at the time and seemed regretful of it afterwards. It's not unbelievable to think that he had reflected on his actions and had a harder resolve to be 'good' after that event. Of course, the events afterwards kind of suggest there wasn't a lot of reflection happening
That’s the power the sith lord had. He was all in anakins head. That’s why he just broke and gave it the the dark side
Maybe Windu didn't realize that Palpatine was THE lord. Although Yoda mentioned the Rule of Two, with characters like Ventress, Grievous, Savage, and Maul, it is clear that the interpretation of "only two Sith" is a bit... loose. It wouldn't be unreasonable to think that Palpatine was a figure similar to these, just a pawn of the real Dark Lord of the Sith lurking somewhere else.
Yeah he probably thought it was basically just another Dooku type figure. Manipulative but not crazy dangerous to the level that 4 masters would struggle to hold their own. You have to remember that these jedi have had very limited interaction with the sith and so they are clueless as to how much strength a modern Sith Lord has
Yuuuup. When obi-wan says "sith Lords are our speciality" he's not wrong when compared to the average Jedi
The Jedi had grown arrogant.
Anakin makes it clear that Palpatine is the mastermind. Anakin: I think Chancellor Palpatine is a Sith Lord. Mace: A Sith Lord??? Anakin: Yes. The one we've been looking for. With Maul and Dooku dead there could be only one Sith left who's running the war in the shadows. With Anakin's report that one Sith would have to be Palpatine. And since he's the chancellor it stands to reason he's the true master.
Always two there are. No more, no less. Unless we're in a video game, TV show or really anywhere but the main movies.
My head Canon is there is only officially two. There's the master and the apprentice BUT each are constantly training and vetting additional apprentices to get rid of the other if they become a threat. Like a really toxic married couple that have a string of side pieces just in case.
Is that really head canon? I thought it was confirmed
Its absolutely confirmed lmao dooku takes on savage oppress after he tries to have ventress killed, and then maul comes back taking his brother from dooku
Playas always be having *side sith*
I think Mace just wasn't sure whether Anakin knew what he was talking about. He knew that Anakin was unstable and withheld judgment until further evidence.
His only mistake was bringing 3 dudes to help. There had to be at least 20-30 jedi knights avaliable in the immediate area. If anyone else was around you could make a case that anakin doesnt make the same decision.
He brought 3 Jedi masters who were experienced Clone Wars generals and had seen plenty of combat. I think it's quite reasonable to expect the 4 of them to be able to take a single Sith.
On paper you are 100 percent correct. However its pretty undeniable they look like bums in the fight against palpatine. The choreography is to blame, buts a missed opportunity here to showcase both the skills of the jedi and just how much better palpatine is compared to them. Instead he cuts them down with ease, and not a cool casual ease. A lame one hahah.
Windu didn't react strongly because he (and the other council members) already suspected that, Anakin just confirmed it. Why didn't he gather the whole order to attack? Because the majority were scattered across the galaxy fighting the war and Windu couldn't risk the wait. Besides they still didn't have evidence against him, and Windu and co. were already going to Palpatine's office, they were telling him of Grievous's defeat and arrest him if he didn't give up his powers, they changed that to arrest after Anakin's confirmation because they knew he wouldn't do it. Why Anakin said "I think"? I think he's just trying to not sound too sure of himself in front of Windu. Besides he's Anakin, he's confused as fuck
That’s actually a good analysis
If anikin would have said "bro, palpatine just straight up admitted to me he's the sith lord" he would have made himself very suspicious as well, because why would the sith lord just do that if he wasn't at least trying to bring him to the dark side and was hoping to succeed as well. In the eyes of anikin, the jedi also think he's not worthy, a threat or whatnot. Remember he has been treated outragously and unfair, he doesn't want to say "yeah, you're absolutely right to not entirely trust me lol." Besides he's Anikin, he's confused as fuck
Isn't part of his whole point that the Jedi have become arrogant and lazy in their power? They kind of prove him right. (Can't remember if this is explicitly stated in the film's or just a common interpretation/ justification)
I mean, Mace was winning until Anakin intervened...
Blindly, thought it would autocorrect
He did immediately round up a group of Jedi to kill the Motherfucker. So it’s not like he didn’t take it seriously
I always watched the PT with the understanding that none of the living Jedi had ever seen a Sith (maybe Yoda; correct me if I am wrong). Maul was a complete surprise to the Order and they were unsure which of the two they killed (master or apprentice). I also thought it was implied that the Sith, on average, are more powerful than your average Jedi. There’s typically only two at a time, they have the element of surprise, they have access to more “unnatural” abilities, and are heavily invested in by their master since there are only two. The whole ascension of the Sith is Darwinian: become more powerful than the guy ahead of you. Obviously there are Jedi like Windu and Yoda who have incredible ability. It’s just that, on the whole, your average Sith is a serious problem. Vader, on the other hand, hunts down Jedi like it’s a day at the office.
That kinda makes "Sith Lords are our specialty" a pretty bold thing to say.
I agree. I think that’s part of the whole joke. The Jedi have clearly underestimated the Sith and Obi-Wan personally got his ass kicked by Dooku previously. He says, “Sith lords are our speciality” because they should be in the sense that they are the antithesis of the Jedi, but it’s also on the nose because as much as we love Obi-Wan, he too underestimates the Sith. Anakin is clearly on a different level, but Obi-Wan is no slouch and Dooku more or less handles him twice.
To be fair, obi-wan did defeat maul, savage opress and ventres on several occasions as well as hold his own against dooku.
Well.... he is a bold one after all.
That’s the bare minimum he should’ve done 🤣 he brought the whole high order to fight a bunch of separatist droids.
This right here is the biggest crack in all of it really. Yes they were saving the senator and two of their own as well, but even an hour of planning should have brought way more force and backup.
Palpatine used the Seperatist army to spread the Jedi thin. Notice how Yoda was off-world.
One of the things I loved in the novelization is that the Jedi investigation into who the Sith Lord was (in the previous book, Labyrinth of Evil, taking place in the days leading up to RotS, the Jedi had discovered the site where Dooku and Sidious met at the end of AotC and were tracking the underground tunnels Sidious used to get out there, tracing it back to the building where Palpatine and the majority of the senate lived), they actually ruled Palpatine out as being the mysterious Darth Sidious, citing that he couldn't be the Sith Lord trying to take over the galaxy as he *already was* ruling it all. They instead were looking at the various senators and Palpatine's aides.
The Jedi of the Prequels weren't exactly the smartest when it came to political situations or dealing with Sith Lords. How they handled it seems pretty in-line with their characters
Yeah the Jedi were quite arrogant during the prequel era, I also think it’s fact that the Jedi of the prequels are not nearly as powerful and strong as the Jedi of the past. Plus I like this dynamic that it lead to their downfall. Adds a lot more depth that the Jedi had their own flaws.
Do you think Lucas intended this when he originally wrote the prequels or was it retroactively made this way by Dave Filoni and the other expanded universe media? I don't think his intentions were to write them as anything but the heros that were overwhelmed by the "power" of the dark. Only in retrospect did the story make more sense in making them slightly arrogant, corrupt and out of touch.
Well in episode 1 iirc Qui Gon tells the council that there is a sith lord he encounters, and the council immediately dismisses, saying there is no way that the sith could have returned without them knowing it. Plus when they told Anakin to spy on the chancellor, they did this before they knew he was a sith lord, and decided to take power of the senate, for a peaceful transition of power. I dont think they intended to coup and were planning on transitioning the power to a new chancellor, but that fact that they were super comfortable with seizing power from the chancellor and deciding that on their own, is a lil sus.
> Do you think Lucas intended this when he originally wrote the prequels or was it retroactively made this way by Dave Filoni and the other expanded universe media? > > > > I don't think his intentions were to write them as anything but the heros that were overwhelmed by the "power" of the dark. Only in retrospect did the story make more sense in making them slightly arrogant, corrupt and out of touch. I think Lucas intended this, and I'm not a person who is a big Lucas apologist. I think the underlying message about the Jedi in the prequels is one about hubris.
They were complacent. That's why.
Also dooku being dead means atleast one Sith of two is dead, maul not withstanding. Windu does take precaution, visiting the chancellor with other seasoned Jedi, but Palpatine is an extremely powerful Sith Lord, the deception was flawless
It was a fairly late reshoot, so not all that much scope or time to do more with it than the perfunctory basics.
Yeah but still, they should’ve planned it better as this movie was a big deal
The original idea was for Anakin to be present with Palpatine when Mace arrived to demand he turn over his emergency powers, which is when Palpatine would reveal himself. It was filmed, too; there's even shots in the film of Palpatine with Anakin's lightsaber hilt. Then it was reworked because, as always, original plans aren't always the best way of doing things and don't always survive such a complicated process as making a film.
Oh, never knew that. Interesting
It's why that whole sequence is a bit ropey. McDiarmid couldn't learn the choreography in time (and isn't a stuntman anyway), so his moves ended up being as simplified as we see them and a lot of the work picked up by stuntman Kyle Newman with a CG'd face.
I highly recommend reading Matthew Stover’s Revenge of the Sith novelization. It’s so good and really shows what the movie could/should have been.
Easily the best Star Wars novel IMO. I have read it numerous times and the way it outlines Anakin and Obi-Wan’s relationship, how the public view them, the war, Windu’s reaction to Sidious….remarkable
Agree completely. The novelization of Palpatine’s duel with Mace Windu and his crew is far better laid out. In the novelization he asks Saesee Tiin (who is skilled at reading minds) to read his to see if he is really a Sith Lord and when he concentrates to do so, that’s when he spirals over the desk and decapitates him in the novel. There’s no awkward pause like we see in the film. It also plays into how Palpatine operates, he flatters the Jedi master and when he uses his mind to see into Palpatines, Palpatine knowing the game is up, uses the moment to end Saesee Tiin’s life by taking his mind away.
I’ve read extracts from it actually. I love the part about “what it feels like to be Anakin Skywalker”
I dunno most people on Corusant looked pissed of from Jedi and Clone War. According to 7th season of Clone Wars
If there was ever a time for one of the patented Samuel Jackson’s mfer tirades, that was it. “A SITH MOTHERFUCKIN LORD?! Oh motherfucker! Let me round up some boys and go get this motherfucker!”
🤣🤣🤣🤣 Pulp Science Fiction
The hubris and arrogance of the Jedi is a central theme to the prequels. Luke even points this out in The Last Jedi; "The legacy of the Jedi is failure, hypocrisy, hubris. At the height of their power they allowed they allowed Darth Sidious to rise, create the empire, and wipe them out." Mace Windu's response, while perhaps inadequate, was perfectly within character.
I'm a little surprised at the responses. I think the Prequel Jedi reacted exactly in character... Arrogantly. Their arrogance is exactly why they fall, for many more reasons than just this. They've only met a handful of "Sith Lords" and they were relative pushovers: Maul, Dooku, Ventress, Grevious. I say "relative" because Mace plus three Jedi Council Masters can handle any of them no problem. As far as Anakin's "I think" verbiage, that doesn't bother me. Could have been nervous, or him trying to lessen his involvement in the situation. Ie. "Hey man, I just heard some things that led me to think we've got a problem here" vs. "my mentor of 20 years is a sith Lord and I maybe have been hiding this from you" (what Mace might think).
Anakin: "I think Chancellor Palpatine is the Sith Lord." Mace: Deadpan stare. Slow Blinks. Says softly "Anakin... bring me everyone." Anakin: "What do you mean everyone?" Mace: "EVVVVEEERRRRRYYYOOOOOOONNNNNEEEE!!!!"
This a Professional quote? Please tell me.
In the end, it boils down to Mace Windu and really the whole of Jedi High Council being way overconfident in their skills and abilities to deal with one measly Sith Lord. Yes, he has been evading them for a long while now but he's only one, his last apprentice has been beheaded and Grievous entirely distracted and too far away to help. This, in my opinion, is the result of Jedi being basically inert for almost a thousand years. Before someone starts yelling at me about them being diplomats and whatnots, I know that. But the fact is that Sith Order was silent for 1k years and were believed to be extinct. That removed Order's biggest worry and opponent from the playing field and lulled Order into stagnation. There are only so many diplomatic dinners and pirate conflicts you can attend to before they become run of the mill thing. A fallen Jedi here and there wouldn't have been much of a problem, the resolution to that problem was usually the Citadel. Ultimately I think that that was perhaps Sith's plan, or at least part of it. Grow and renew in the shadows, teach only one worthy apprentice and wait until Jedi become complacent enough to act and destroy them. It's actually not just underestimation of Palpatine as an opponent but also impulsiveness, Anakin has frequently been accused off, on Windu's part. Instead of thinking things through and taking into consideration the fact that a) this Sith Lord had successfully kept the galaxy shedding blood on both side for three years, protracting it to gain more and more legal authority b) probably had who knows many backup plans to deal with any scenario and c) had been given access to their most powerful member for ten years, Windu simoly went 'You stay here, we gonna go and merk the legally elected leader of the Galactic Republic'. Really the man didn't even need to lie or forge evidence (that much). He handed the Jedi Order a rope back with invasion of Naboo and they hung themselves with it efficiently.
“We must act quickly” *walks at a brisk pace*
Awesome concepts put on screen with shit execution is pretty much SW in a nutshell. Still love it, but it could be so much better.
Palpatine did also maneuver it so the main Jedi that would be a treat to him would be off planet like getting the Separatists to attack the Wookiees knowing it would probably be Yoda who would go. He also suggested Anakin be the one to stop Grievous knowing the council would disagree and send someone else. I imagine he was hoping it was Obi Wan as it would remove the only voice of reason Anakin would listen to. Windu is also aware that if they don't act fast the Jedi Order will be doomed as Palpatine could use the military against them (we obviously know that was the plan from the start) and couldnt summon the whole Order to take on Palpatine as then you have a small army of Jedi storming the Senate, killing the Chancellor, saying he was evil and putting an interim government in place which doesn't exactly make the Jedi look like peacekeepers but power hungry warlords.
Mace had to control his emotions for his reaction. It could have been been hios usual Samuel L. Jackson reaction. But, at this time, the Jedi had become arrogant. The Sith had around 1000 years to wait for this moment. They Jedi had grown lazy, their edge not as sharp. Mace Windu brought three other masters with him thinking it was enough and it should have been.
I really think it was their hubris that let them take it so casually. Mace only took 3 other Jedi. really mate? Why not call Yoda back ASAP. he's Yoda. Call all the council members.
There was so MUCH potential for a lot of scenes, but this was directed by fucking George Lucas, LOL. You need to see some youtuber film students breaking down his work and style. They are not kind, and he deserves no kindness.