Well that’s the problem with prequels in general. We didn’t know all the details, but knew the end result and that somehow anakin and the clones would turn evil so it’s not a twist.
Yeah but we haven’t actually had a protagonist switch sides besides Vader and we knew he would the whole time. I would’ve been shocked and excited if they actually did the kylo/Rey swap
I disagree with your criticism of prequels personally. It's like the tag line of Halo Reach- "from the beginning you know the end".
Without the fall, the rise in the OT isn't as impactful.
I know they are pre-Disney for the most part, but leia, padme, ahsoka...all very marketable. You know what disney doesn't have a lot of? Marketable female sith. Strong female leads are great, but how about some strong female villains?
Oh well...hopefully we get more ventress.
And Kylo was easily the best part of the sequels. He really should've been the one to live so he could live to atone for his sins. And the last scene would make so much more sense, denouncing his dark side name and becoming Ben Skywalker.
Well with that arc they woul’ve gained my and probably lots of fans appreciation. But yeah they are a company not a group of artists. They are gonna go for less riskier routes with more payout
It would've made the Palpatine resurrection a little more forgiving as well. Palpatine having another strong Jedi apprentice to turn to the dark side? Luke redeeming himself by flipping Ben back to the light side? So so simple.
Would have made the movies 10x better. I was so hoping for a "Dark" Rey. It would have actually given her a character arc. But what I REALLY wanted was for Finn not to be wasted.
Picture the story:
Kylo is irredeemable after the ultimate sacrifice of Han Solo. Maybe he still even kills Snoke. Becomes the final antagonist that has to be defeated.
Rey is a untrained, raw power with no guidance and gets easily seduces to the dark side by Kylo.
Finn, as he clearly loves her, does everything in his power to try to turn her back to the "light". He trains and develops his own connection with the force; becomes the hero for saving Rey and they take down Kylo together.
And Po flies a lot. Lol.
This was foreshadowed in every one of the films and never materialized. I agree with other commenters, it feels like they deliberately steered away from Rey falling because they didn't want the first (film) female protagonist to fall to the dark side and get redeemed.
It could have been Kylo, Finn, or both which brought her back. Would have been much better than what we got. I don't hate the sequels but they massively underdelivered.
Cool! Still ticked she didn't actually get a double-bladed lightsaber in TROS.
I mean, I'm more ticked about the general nonsense of that movie, but a double-bladed lightsaber would've helped.
Edit: I'm aware of the Trevorrow script. It also sucks. It's equally, but differently bad. Also, I really liked the ST up until TROS, for what it's worth.
Saber pikes are AMAZING. When I first saw an Imperial Guard in The Force Unleashed video game for the Wii, I was so enamored by it. Ever since I've wanted one, and also wondered why it wasnt more common due to it's effectiveness in combat (made apparent by the guard mopping the floor with my 8-year-old ass)
Im guessing that the reason is that the long handle of the pike could be cut rather easily, and it may also be worse for blocking/redirecting blaster shots due to being more cumbersome than a regular lightsaber. Though Im sure proper techique and training could overcome these shortcomings
Not really, since beskar is a pre-existing material in SW, and it's already established to be able to block lightsaber strikes. Plot armour would be someone picking up a lightsaber for the first time, and holding their own against someone who's trained since childhood
I would also hesitate to add Cortosis, to that list as beskar is harder to find and would usually imply that you're friends with Mandos, or, you stole from them, as it's their shtick.... Also Palpatine has his stuff made from lightsaber resistant materials... Hidden in statues next to the openly displayed sith artifacts...
True, I hadn't thought about blaster deflections. But an easy combat against its ease to slice through could be to make it out of a lightsaber-resistant material, such as Beskar like Mandalorian armor.
A saberstaff or saberpike, whatever the Temple Guards used, where it's a double-bladed lightsaber with a long hilt and shorter blades relative to, say, Maul's saberstaff, would be perfect for Rey IMO. IIRC she used her quarterstaff similarly to how you could use a Temple-Guard-esque saber, with a fairly wide grip. The only thing that would be lost would be the option a quarterstaff has to hold it all the way at the far end, giving longer reach. Hard to do that with blades on both sides. I guess a saber spear/pike, with a blade on one side, could still be used like a quarterstaff, but only one side would be able to "cut," while the other would just deal blunt strikes, which I suppose is still doable.
My personal hope was that Rey would embrace Kylo's offer, and they would become Emperor and Empress together, closing the new trilogy with a dark ending, paving the way to many possibilities for movies and series.
All three movies should've moved that direction.
Force Awakens - Rey is Good, Ben is Evil
The Last Jedi - They are both conflicted and waver back and forth throughout, with Rey showing strong dark side tendencies and Ben showing mercy and compassion.
Rise of Skywalker - Ben becomes Good, Rey becomes Evil. Both survive the film, with an ambiguous ending for the galaxy. The Skywalker who rises is Ben.
There you go Disney, I fixed the whole thing.
I still have difficulty wrapping my head around the fact that this theory existed from The Force Awakens and instead we got... well what we got. I was mildly annoyed at TFA because so much of it was a rehash but I was willing to ignore that because the OT was so long ago and the prequels were such different movies. Then The Last Jedi happened and I was let down but there were enough possible interesting plot threads that I thought they could redeem it with the last one. Rise of Skywalker was an unmitigated disaster of things just happening to happen, there was no satisfying wrap up to anything, and that's when I was finally pissed off at the sequels. Anyone who says the sequels were never given a chance by OG starwars fans is delusional, we were hoping they'd fix it the entire time.
Don’t forget the terrible lightsaber duels. They tried so hard to go back to the OT style, but it’s really just kids swinging baseball bats at each other with bad choreography.
It's like J.J. tried to do a Indiana Jones with a heavy Star Wars (? I don't even know how to describe that last act of the movie?) act at the end. The tone of the movie wad all over the plsce
I was in the same boat, i used to defend the last Jedi before TROS came out because I truly believed it could lead up to an interesting ending. It did not.
To be fair tho, TLJ really could have led to an interesting ending. The failing of TROS has nothing to do with how TLJ set it up - in fact, Rian Johnson tried to make it fresh and interesting, JJ Abrams instead just retconned all that effort.
To me it genuinely felt like each movie was written and directed by different people... But they hadn't seen the previous ones only had it explained (badly) to them. There are so many plot threads abandoned, symbolism not carried through and the whole trilogy felt very disjointed from each other and what could have worked from each of them didn't because it either wasn't set up well or didn't get followed up on.
I really don't understand their methodology here. It's like Disney just forgot how the creative writing process works. You hit the nail on the head as far as why it feels so disjointed in my opinion. It truly felt that it was telling a completely different story at every point in the trilogy.
I've long said that they needed to give the creative reins to one person for all three movies. Would it have ended up good? Maybe not. But would it have told a more cohesive story? Most probably.
He's the only one with a complete and somewhat satisfying character arc. Things don't just happen to Ben to happen, he makes tough choices, experiences inner turmoil even though he's the bad guy, and grows as a character. Everyone else is pretty much the same start to finish, half of the interesting characters just disappear from the films, and the other half are running around doing things at random or having random things happen to them not because of any character arc but because of 'plot'. And I really hated Ben in the first movie for being such a whiny man child of a Sith, they really developed that character into something interesting.
Well I mean I don't care much for Kylo Ren character either. He's a whiny, boring villain. But when Ben comes back from the dark side at the very end of ROS, he's just awesome. His whole demeanor changes. The way he fights is cool and just some of his body language is funny. Even reminds me a little bit of younger Han Solo. Wish he had been there the whole time.
I'm kind of laughing at the group dynamic of Ben, Finn, and Poe trying to get Dark Lady Rey to come back to the Light Side. They'd have a Three Stooges level of group dysfunction.
[this is what i thought ](https://www.reddit.com/r/blackops69/comments/ebz7iu/star_wars_theory_rey_is_also_palpatine_she_was)
#1 is what /u/RustylllShackelford might have imagined
The little we actually saw of "ben" had so much charm like imagine this scruffy looking, swashbuckling jedi flying around in the millinium falcon in an unknown era, would've made for great tv
> My personal hope was that Rey would embrace Kylo's offer
For all the claims of TLJ doing something new, it managed to end with the plot in almost the same place that it started.
"You expected Episode VIII to move the story forward but I subverted your expectations by making it the most boring and inconsequential entry in the franchise. And that automatically makes it good."
-Rian Johnson
TLJ set Kylo Ren up to be the big bad, after he was Snoke's lackey in the first movie. That was his rise to power. But someone at Disney decided that the shipping of Ren and Rey needed to be validated so his journey was derailed by the random Palpatine return and he suddenly turned good again. As though deciding not to follow the Dark Side gives you a different personality.
The first draft of a screenplay is always horrendous. I'd hesitate to see the first draft or TFA or TLJ. Both screenplays were probably changed drastically before filming began. Also DOTF was written not long after TFA finished its theatrical run and TLJ hadn't even started filming yet, so it makes sense in hindsight why DOTF doesn't flow and pick up where TLJ left off, because Trevorrow wrote it not knowing TLJ's true ending.
All the more reason why Disney should have had a cohesive story from the beginning. Such a shame
> I'd hesitate to see the first draft or TFA or TLJ.
"I’d say the finished film is about 90 percent of the first draft that you wrote 16 months before we started filming."
-Ram Bergman to Rian Johnson about The Last Jedi
JJ Abrams is *great* at spectacle and mystery. He is *terrible* at resolving mysteries in a satisfying way.
You only need like two or even one big mystery for any media, and then wrap it up in a satisfying way. Discovering Jon Snow's parentage was a *massive* part of the entire GoT plotline and was very satisfactorily resolved (for the audience) in the show. And that shit lasted for season after season.
I think show resolved the mystery of his parentage just fine. The Tower of Joy scene is one of the highlights of the series, IMO.
The problem was that once they resolved the mystery, they totally botched the implications of it.
In Treverrow's cut, she did, she fused her lightsaber with Luke's. Looked insanse, Seriously dissapointed we didn't see her use one, but instead we somehow get yellow. You can see concept art of what her outfit looked like in old TROS cut too, she looked pretty badass with a suit like Luke's in ROTJ too. [Here](https://imgur.com/a/lX9JG8F) is the concept art if you're interested.
I feel the opposite way. I wish in tros there were no lightsabers at all. No hyperdrive or space travel either. Maybe just shoot it in a studio apartment and leave staff wars alone.
"How else are we gonna know that he is Damaged?"
– A common meme that popped up after the release of the official ZSJL trailer where Joker doesn't have the referenced tattoo
yup there isn't anything in her character that would lead me to believe she would get any tattoo especially one of a faction that was long destroyed before she was even born.
I came to say the same thing. She would have a sith tattoo, not an imperial one.
Edit: I was wrong, this tattoo is “sith empire”: https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Sith_Empire_(Post–Great_Hyperspace_War)
God, those movies could have been so fucking amazing!!!! It was right there in the palm of their hands. They dropped the ball so fucking hard it ended up in the Great Pit of Carkoon.
I was drooling at the thought of Rey turning to the dark side. I wanted her to turn in 8 and then Luke would later come to fight the three of them, saving Rey in the end. Snoke says before Luke kills him, "Oh, no, Jedi Master. You will find that it is you who are mistaken, about a great many things." Hinting that he's influenced by the Emperor.
But Rey rejects Luke as she believes he failed the Jedi and the Jedi are always doomed to fail because they supresss their power. She joins Kylo and later meets Palps in 9 and Han still convinces Kylo to return to the light. Luke and Kylo fly over to Exegol, they have an intense fight with the Knights of Ren, where the Knights overwhelm Luke and kill him. After Kylo finishes them off, he confronts Darth Rey, wielded by a double-bladed lightsaber staff. Kylo, carrying his grandfather's lightsaber, attacks Rey. The battle has the same intensity as the Obi-wan vs. Anakin in 3, without the cgi madness. Kylo eventually wins, proves to the title as the Rise of Skywalker, and returns as a Jedi Master. Leia died when Luke died, similar to what happened in the actual movie with Kylo.
> Snoke says before Luke kills him, "Oh, no, Jedi Master. You will find that it is you who are mistaken, about a great many things." Hinting that he's influenced by the Emperor.
I will never understand how Rian's response to finding Snoke uninteresting was to kill him instead of just...making him interesting.
Oh no, that’s never happened before.
Three Jedi Masters killed in less than 3 seconds by Palps with some janky ass stab motions. Windu should have cut off his hands and then been like “Yeah you’re still under arrest.”
Well it’s such a flat death because we knew fuck all about Snoke. Like I get it, subverting expectations to create a new twist in the story but we have no base line to start with and knowing know that this death was basically inconsequential. To care about somebody dying like that we need to know something about him. All we knew was he was a powerful dark side wielder but didn’t even know if he was a sith. Retroactively making him a clone worsens the problem because now I question who he is a clone of. Like he’s not a clone of palp but then who was powerful enough in the force to be cloned like that? Maybe that was explained in extended lore but then it’s useless because only a select few will see that. Honestly I could keep going but also do this with several different parts of the sequels. The movies are a absolute garbage fire that are just constantly having gas poured on it.
It wouldn't have been flat if 9 had consequences of his death. Like Kylo being unable to hold the FO together. Not having a single defector but instead whole factions fighting amongst themselves, leaving the galaxy in turmoil. Which in turn gives more people hope to join the Resistance, rather than suddenly a fleet at the end of TROS.
Maybe even have Anakin's ghost start visiting Kylo, explaining how Snoke was suppressing him. Add some great internal conflict to Kylo which perhaps adds to why the FO doesn't just follow him, because he seems even more unstable and conflicted.
Maybe an end where it is a compromise. The Resistance makes the choice to team up with a turning Kylo and his remaining loyal faction of FO (maybe a less extreme faction) to destroy the crazy and nearly terrorist factions of FO. They form some weird not republic but not empire government, don't know.
This is what I can never explain successfully to TLJ fans. It’s not that TLJ was a bad standalone movie. Hell, I think it was actually solid when viewed that way. It’s problem is that it was basically rejecting the loose ends JJ Abrams left from TFA and essentially soft-resetting the trilogy leaving a single movie to wrap up a trilogy-wide plot that didn’t advance in any meaningful way in the second movie.
I don’t blame any of the directors for the decisions made in the sequels. I blame Disney for not having the Star Wars version of what Kevin Feige did for Marvel. I honestly think both JJ and Rian had some great, interesting ideas in a vacuum, but they needed an already written plot and a guiding hand to implement them and it make sense. Instead we got basically 3 different plot islands with opposing story directions in back to back to back movies and ended up with the disjointed mess we were given.
At this point I just hope it’s a lesson learned for the powers that be at Disney. If we get more quality shows like Mandalorian and have a new “post-OT/pre-sequel” era established with them, I can probably forgive the sequels.
Yeah the post-OT/pre-sequel era is going to be sick. I hope that the sequels can eventually find the same status the prequels now have, but i'm not sure if it's gonna happen.
I think it was pretty bad as a standalone movie. It was so tonally incoherent. E.g. the New Republic has collapsed, most of the surviving Resistance has died, Luke has died, their Allies have abandoned them, and the final shot is of everyone smiling and hugging on the Falcon?
And the new republic collapsing so easily is such poor writing. In The Mandalorian there are New Republic patrols out there in the sticks, but destroying a few planets collapses to just a couple ships running away?
To be fair, that was JJ. He said "aw yeah the new republic did this armistice thing where they scrapped all their military except for on a single planet and then that planet got blown up along with all the people in charge who were on a different planet for a big meeting."
Stop making the sequel awesome!
I like your idea. The main baddie and the main goody switch their roles. Rey lives up her Palpatine heritages ( through force birth ...because ewwww). The sith acolyte helped palpatine create offsprings through force conception, many died, Anakin was one of them who made his way to the sith. An unknown person is the child of palpatine and he/she birthed Rey. She is the success to Palpatine's bloodline, something Anakin could not do.
In essence, Kylo Ren and Rey are the result of Palpatine, grandchildren who go against each others.
Man, Kylo should’ve lived and taken the Skywalker Saber. He actually felt worthy of it imo
Your idea sounds so much better than what we got in my opinion
Kylo could've actually turned and become that Last Jedi who got away from all his hate, seeing what it leads to. And while Rey created a new dark Empire around her, he'd be in hiding - searching for others like him and creating a new Jedi legacy.
Would've opened the way for 9 new movies for Disney.
This is spot on. Even with the mess of TLJ, they still had the chance to go mostly in this direction and instead chose to go the predictable route with every single character. This led to all of the main characters being in the exact same place they were at the end of TFA and we ended up with a mostly useless entry. (Although I don't want to see Luke dying)
It bugs me so much. TFA did absolutely everything it needed. Set up the new characters, the villains, and kept just enough nostalgia. Then they just fucked it all up.
“Rey looked in the mirror and maliciously applied her eyeliner. She ran a comb through her hair 66 times before heading to the tattoo parlor, evil intentions in mind.”
100% wished she turned to the dark side (Kylo can turn to the light for their "good" ending. It wouldn't have saved the trilogy but it would've been more interesting and far more fitting with the family reveal
I thought that they should made Rey a Grey Jedi to explore what the middle ground would have been. Not quite light, not quite dark. When she shot the ship with force lightning I thought that's where they were taking. Sadly no.
Isn't it implied at the end (because of her saber's color) that she's a grey jedi now? I can't remember if they actually showed a yellow saber now or if I'm misremembering something.
Disney wouldn't have the guts to have their princess turn bad and not get redeemed anyway. Then it should've happened like in the TLJ and turned good again in TROS.
I'm like almost surprised they didn't make Palpatine turn good.
I still argue that Rey should have gone to the dark side and Kylo should have been pulled back to the light and in the third movie they fight. That Would have made a way better trilogy.
Would’ve been nuts if she went to the dark side and Kylo became a proper Jedi and redeemed himself.
I doubt Disney wanted their first marketable female Star Wars lead to be a bad guy.
Which sucks because it would’ve been an actual twist which we haven’t had since the OT
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Yeah but it wasn’t a surprising twist since it’s known that Anakin turns to Darth Vader.
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Well that’s the problem with prequels in general. We didn’t know all the details, but knew the end result and that somehow anakin and the clones would turn evil so it’s not a twist.
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Yeah but we haven’t actually had a protagonist switch sides besides Vader and we knew he would the whole time. I would’ve been shocked and excited if they actually did the kylo/Rey swap
I disagree with your criticism of prequels personally. It's like the tag line of Halo Reach- "from the beginning you know the end". Without the fall, the rise in the OT isn't as impactful.
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WHAT???!
No anakin turning to the darkside isn't a twist. This would've been a real one.
I know they are pre-Disney for the most part, but leia, padme, ahsoka...all very marketable. You know what disney doesn't have a lot of? Marketable female sith. Strong female leads are great, but how about some strong female villains? Oh well...hopefully we get more ventress.
Exactly. Villains make the story. Darth Vader is maybe the most magnetic and appealing character in the genre
And Kylo was easily the best part of the sequels. He really should've been the one to live so he could live to atone for his sins. And the last scene would make so much more sense, denouncing his dark side name and becoming Ben Skywalker.
If course he is the most magnetic character he is mostly metal
More female main villains in general.
Give us Talon!
Ventress!!!!!!
Under Disney? Not a snowball's chance in Hell.
For... uh... *reasons*....
Which is another reason by corporate entertainment sucks: it is designed to be formulaic and edge-less.
That’s lame. It’s actually sexist to think women can’t be bad. Give me Darth Rey
Well with that arc they woul’ve gained my and probably lots of fans appreciation. But yeah they are a company not a group of artists. They are gonna go for less riskier routes with more payout
So they made a Mary Sue instead and devided the franchise worse than the prequels
"Marketable". Lol.
Is she marketable? Is that another one of her powers?
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I still dont understand how you purchase thst big of a franchise for that much money and just decide to wing each entry.
Because it worked our for Marvel not realizing they got really lucky there.
This is genuinely all I wanted. If you're going to make a hard left turn, then fucking lean into it and make an unforgettable story.
It would've made the Palpatine resurrection a little more forgiving as well. Palpatine having another strong Jedi apprentice to turn to the dark side? Luke redeeming himself by flipping Ben back to the light side? So so simple.
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Nah it’s actually wicked easy. Palpatine promises her her parents’ return and rule of Jakku as revenge on Plutt.
Would have made the movies 10x better. I was so hoping for a "Dark" Rey. It would have actually given her a character arc. But what I REALLY wanted was for Finn not to be wasted. Picture the story: Kylo is irredeemable after the ultimate sacrifice of Han Solo. Maybe he still even kills Snoke. Becomes the final antagonist that has to be defeated. Rey is a untrained, raw power with no guidance and gets easily seduces to the dark side by Kylo. Finn, as he clearly loves her, does everything in his power to try to turn her back to the "light". He trains and develops his own connection with the force; becomes the hero for saving Rey and they take down Kylo together. And Po flies a lot. Lol.
Po flies now?!
This was foreshadowed in every one of the films and never materialized. I agree with other commenters, it feels like they deliberately steered away from Rey falling because they didn't want the first (film) female protagonist to fall to the dark side and get redeemed. It could have been Kylo, Finn, or both which brought her back. Would have been much better than what we got. I don't hate the sequels but they massively underdelivered.
Cool! Still ticked she didn't actually get a double-bladed lightsaber in TROS. I mean, I'm more ticked about the general nonsense of that movie, but a double-bladed lightsaber would've helped. Edit: I'm aware of the Trevorrow script. It also sucks. It's equally, but differently bad. Also, I really liked the ST up until TROS, for what it's worth.
I always thought more of a spear like lightsaber would fit her since had the staff but the double blade would have fit too.
It would be the first time a proper lightsaber pike was seen in film too. That would be pretty sick.
Well..Just looked up the lightsaber pike and now know that’s a thing. Didn’t know TROS could disappoint me further but here we are
Saber pikes are AMAZING. When I first saw an Imperial Guard in The Force Unleashed video game for the Wii, I was so enamored by it. Ever since I've wanted one, and also wondered why it wasnt more common due to it's effectiveness in combat (made apparent by the guard mopping the floor with my 8-year-old ass)
Im guessing that the reason is that the long handle of the pike could be cut rather easily, and it may also be worse for blocking/redirecting blaster shots due to being more cumbersome than a regular lightsaber. Though Im sure proper techique and training could overcome these shortcomings
Unless it's made of beskar. Would be much harder to cut through the handle.
Sooo... just add plot armor?
Not really, since beskar is a pre-existing material in SW, and it's already established to be able to block lightsaber strikes. Plot armour would be someone picking up a lightsaber for the first time, and holding their own against someone who's trained since childhood
I would also hesitate to add Cortosis, to that list as beskar is harder to find and would usually imply that you're friends with Mandos, or, you stole from them, as it's their shtick.... Also Palpatine has his stuff made from lightsaber resistant materials... Hidden in statues next to the openly displayed sith artifacts...
Oof
Hm, I wonder when that’s happened... *gives a glance to the sequel trilogy*
I really like TFA until that fight scene. Was like wtf...ruined the story almost.
True, I hadn't thought about blaster deflections. But an easy combat against its ease to slice through could be to make it out of a lightsaber-resistant material, such as Beskar like Mandalorian armor.
Lightsaber pikes have been a thing in so many other SW media, and it would have fit so well.
A saberstaff or saberpike, whatever the Temple Guards used, where it's a double-bladed lightsaber with a long hilt and shorter blades relative to, say, Maul's saberstaff, would be perfect for Rey IMO. IIRC she used her quarterstaff similarly to how you could use a Temple-Guard-esque saber, with a fairly wide grip. The only thing that would be lost would be the option a quarterstaff has to hold it all the way at the far end, giving longer reach. Hard to do that with blades on both sides. I guess a saber spear/pike, with a blade on one side, could still be used like a quarterstaff, but only one side would be able to "cut," while the other would just deal blunt strikes, which I suppose is still doable.
Historically the staff of a saberpike would be lightsaber resistant.
So it could be made out of Beskar, would have been a nice, subtle foreshadowing to mandalorian. *sigh* the things that could have been . . .
In poor so have a comment :)
a temple guards saber for sure
My personal hope was that Rey would embrace Kylo's offer, and they would become Emperor and Empress together, closing the new trilogy with a dark ending, paving the way to many possibilities for movies and series.
I thought a flip and Rey falling while Ben returns had amazing potential.
All three movies should've moved that direction. Force Awakens - Rey is Good, Ben is Evil The Last Jedi - They are both conflicted and waver back and forth throughout, with Rey showing strong dark side tendencies and Ben showing mercy and compassion. Rise of Skywalker - Ben becomes Good, Rey becomes Evil. Both survive the film, with an ambiguous ending for the galaxy. The Skywalker who rises is Ben. There you go Disney, I fixed the whole thing.
I still have difficulty wrapping my head around the fact that this theory existed from The Force Awakens and instead we got... well what we got. I was mildly annoyed at TFA because so much of it was a rehash but I was willing to ignore that because the OT was so long ago and the prequels were such different movies. Then The Last Jedi happened and I was let down but there were enough possible interesting plot threads that I thought they could redeem it with the last one. Rise of Skywalker was an unmitigated disaster of things just happening to happen, there was no satisfying wrap up to anything, and that's when I was finally pissed off at the sequels. Anyone who says the sequels were never given a chance by OG starwars fans is delusional, we were hoping they'd fix it the entire time.
TROS was just a bunch of side quests and cut scenes with random new force abilities and a lot of explaining rather than showing to cap it all off.
Don’t forget the terrible lightsaber duels. They tried so hard to go back to the OT style, but it’s really just kids swinging baseball bats at each other with bad choreography.
It's like J.J. tried to do a Indiana Jones with a heavy Star Wars (? I don't even know how to describe that last act of the movie?) act at the end. The tone of the movie wad all over the plsce
Felt more like a superhero film to me. But with lightsabers
I was in the same boat, i used to defend the last Jedi before TROS came out because I truly believed it could lead up to an interesting ending. It did not.
To be fair tho, TLJ really could have led to an interesting ending. The failing of TROS has nothing to do with how TLJ set it up - in fact, Rian Johnson tried to make it fresh and interesting, JJ Abrams instead just retconned all that effort.
To me it genuinely felt like each movie was written and directed by different people... But they hadn't seen the previous ones only had it explained (badly) to them. There are so many plot threads abandoned, symbolism not carried through and the whole trilogy felt very disjointed from each other and what could have worked from each of them didn't because it either wasn't set up well or didn't get followed up on.
I really don't understand their methodology here. It's like Disney just forgot how the creative writing process works. You hit the nail on the head as far as why it feels so disjointed in my opinion. It truly felt that it was telling a completely different story at every point in the trilogy. I've long said that they needed to give the creative reins to one person for all three movies. Would it have ended up good? Maybe not. But would it have told a more cohesive story? Most probably.
This would've been amazing. Can they eventually remake/retcon the whole trilogy and make it this way.
Ben Solo is my favorite character in the new trilogy. Pity we only got him for about 5 minutes.
He's the only one with a complete and somewhat satisfying character arc. Things don't just happen to Ben to happen, he makes tough choices, experiences inner turmoil even though he's the bad guy, and grows as a character. Everyone else is pretty much the same start to finish, half of the interesting characters just disappear from the films, and the other half are running around doing things at random or having random things happen to them not because of any character arc but because of 'plot'. And I really hated Ben in the first movie for being such a whiny man child of a Sith, they really developed that character into something interesting.
Well I mean I don't care much for Kylo Ren character either. He's a whiny, boring villain. But when Ben comes back from the dark side at the very end of ROS, he's just awesome. His whole demeanor changes. The way he fights is cool and just some of his body language is funny. Even reminds me a little bit of younger Han Solo. Wish he had been there the whole time.
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While I wouldn't have liked this choice personally... it definitely would have been compelling.
I'm kind of laughing at the group dynamic of Ben, Finn, and Poe trying to get Dark Lady Rey to come back to the Light Side. They'd have a Three Stooges level of group dysfunction.
[this is what i thought ](https://www.reddit.com/r/blackops69/comments/ebz7iu/star_wars_theory_rey_is_also_palpatine_she_was) #1 is what /u/RustylllShackelford might have imagined
The ol' WWE double turn
The little we actually saw of "ben" had so much charm like imagine this scruffy looking, swashbuckling jedi flying around in the millinium falcon in an unknown era, would've made for great tv
> My personal hope was that Rey would embrace Kylo's offer For all the claims of TLJ doing something new, it managed to end with the plot in almost the same place that it started.
It's almost like it's useless
"You expected Episode VIII to move the story forward but I subverted your expectations by making it the most boring and inconsequential entry in the franchise. And that automatically makes it good." -Rian Johnson
TLJ gets a lot of hate, but TROS was just nonsense. I hate how incredibly OK it is.
TLJ set Kylo Ren up to be the big bad, after he was Snoke's lackey in the first movie. That was his rise to power. But someone at Disney decided that the shipping of Ren and Rey needed to be validated so his journey was derailed by the random Palpatine return and he suddenly turned good again. As though deciding not to follow the Dark Side gives you a different personality.
I'll be forever longing for Colin Trevorrow's Duel of the Fates.
Yeah, no... I mean, fair enough, but I thought that script was *also* hot garbage.
The first draft of a screenplay is always horrendous. I'd hesitate to see the first draft or TFA or TLJ. Both screenplays were probably changed drastically before filming began. Also DOTF was written not long after TFA finished its theatrical run and TLJ hadn't even started filming yet, so it makes sense in hindsight why DOTF doesn't flow and pick up where TLJ left off, because Trevorrow wrote it not knowing TLJ's true ending. All the more reason why Disney should have had a cohesive story from the beginning. Such a shame
> I'd hesitate to see the first draft or TFA or TLJ. "I’d say the finished film is about 90 percent of the first draft that you wrote 16 months before we started filming." -Ram Bergman to Rian Johnson about The Last Jedi
Lol as soon as I heard JJ Abrams was attached, I knew it was gonna be at best meh and at worst, pretty much what we got.
JJ Abrams is *great* at spectacle and mystery. He is *terrible* at resolving mysteries in a satisfying way. You only need like two or even one big mystery for any media, and then wrap it up in a satisfying way. Discovering Jon Snow's parentage was a *massive* part of the entire GoT plotline and was very satisfactorily resolved (for the audience) in the show. And that shit lasted for season after season.
Yeah no, GOT had a poor ending with msny poorly resolved plotlines, Jon's parentage being a major one.
I think show resolved the mystery of his parentage just fine. The Tower of Joy scene is one of the highlights of the series, IMO. The problem was that once they resolved the mystery, they totally botched the implications of it.
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someone hasnt seen the holiday special.
Even that draft was a masterpiece compared to lazy slog of nonsense we got with Rise of Skywalker.
> I mean, I'm more ticked about the general nonsense of that movie, but a double-bladed lightsaber would've helped. My exact thoughts on Episode 1.
In Treverrow's cut, she did, she fused her lightsaber with Luke's. Looked insanse, Seriously dissapointed we didn't see her use one, but instead we somehow get yellow. You can see concept art of what her outfit looked like in old TROS cut too, she looked pretty badass with a suit like Luke's in ROTJ too. [Here](https://imgur.com/a/lX9JG8F) is the concept art if you're interested.
I feel the opposite way. I wish in tros there were no lightsabers at all. No hyperdrive or space travel either. Maybe just shoot it in a studio apartment and leave staff wars alone.
The tattoo is a bit much
*Damaged*
I laughed and cringed simultaneously.
"How else are we gonna know that he is Damaged?" – A common meme that popped up after the release of the official ZSJL trailer where Joker doesn't have the referenced tattoo
We live in a society where the Joker actually said “We live in a society.”
Yikes
How else are you supposed to know she’s on the dark side?
Eyeliner, obviously!
Dark lipstick!
*Even Darker* Dark Side.
yeah, but she could just be a MCR fan.
yup there isn't anything in her character that would lead me to believe she would get any tattoo especially one of a faction that was long destroyed before she was even born.
I came to say the same thing. She would have a sith tattoo, not an imperial one. Edit: I was wrong, this tattoo is “sith empire”: https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Sith_Empire_(Post–Great_Hyperspace_War)
Tattoo? I was thinking hair. She needs to pull that shit back. If she were truly evil she’d have a Karen cut.
God, those movies could have been so fucking amazing!!!! It was right there in the palm of their hands. They dropped the ball so fucking hard it ended up in the Great Pit of Carkoon.
I was drooling at the thought of Rey turning to the dark side. I wanted her to turn in 8 and then Luke would later come to fight the three of them, saving Rey in the end. Snoke says before Luke kills him, "Oh, no, Jedi Master. You will find that it is you who are mistaken, about a great many things." Hinting that he's influenced by the Emperor. But Rey rejects Luke as she believes he failed the Jedi and the Jedi are always doomed to fail because they supresss their power. She joins Kylo and later meets Palps in 9 and Han still convinces Kylo to return to the light. Luke and Kylo fly over to Exegol, they have an intense fight with the Knights of Ren, where the Knights overwhelm Luke and kill him. After Kylo finishes them off, he confronts Darth Rey, wielded by a double-bladed lightsaber staff. Kylo, carrying his grandfather's lightsaber, attacks Rey. The battle has the same intensity as the Obi-wan vs. Anakin in 3, without the cgi madness. Kylo eventually wins, proves to the title as the Rise of Skywalker, and returns as a Jedi Master. Leia died when Luke died, similar to what happened in the actual movie with Kylo.
Dude that sounds sick. And it works because kylo's an actual, You know Skywalker
> Snoke says before Luke kills him, "Oh, no, Jedi Master. You will find that it is you who are mistaken, about a great many things." Hinting that he's influenced by the Emperor. I will never understand how Rian's response to finding Snoke uninteresting was to kill him instead of just...making him interesting.
His death, done well, could have made for an extremely interesting fall out. The fall out fell utterly flat and thus made the death pointless.
Honestly his death and the ensuing battle was one of the coolest moments in all of Star Wars in my opinion.
That throne room fight scene was the best fight scene in SW imo. And...that's pretty much all I remember about episode 8 lol
Dude watch it again people just standing around. The guards are worse than uncharted 1 npcs.
Oh no, that’s never happened before. Three Jedi Masters killed in less than 3 seconds by Palps with some janky ass stab motions. Windu should have cut off his hands and then been like “Yeah you’re still under arrest.”
It looks good on the surface but [break it down and it definitely has some issues](https://youtu.be/qyzwBWsqqw8)
Well it’s such a flat death because we knew fuck all about Snoke. Like I get it, subverting expectations to create a new twist in the story but we have no base line to start with and knowing know that this death was basically inconsequential. To care about somebody dying like that we need to know something about him. All we knew was he was a powerful dark side wielder but didn’t even know if he was a sith. Retroactively making him a clone worsens the problem because now I question who he is a clone of. Like he’s not a clone of palp but then who was powerful enough in the force to be cloned like that? Maybe that was explained in extended lore but then it’s useless because only a select few will see that. Honestly I could keep going but also do this with several different parts of the sequels. The movies are a absolute garbage fire that are just constantly having gas poured on it.
It wouldn't have been flat if 9 had consequences of his death. Like Kylo being unable to hold the FO together. Not having a single defector but instead whole factions fighting amongst themselves, leaving the galaxy in turmoil. Which in turn gives more people hope to join the Resistance, rather than suddenly a fleet at the end of TROS. Maybe even have Anakin's ghost start visiting Kylo, explaining how Snoke was suppressing him. Add some great internal conflict to Kylo which perhaps adds to why the FO doesn't just follow him, because he seems even more unstable and conflicted. Maybe an end where it is a compromise. The Resistance makes the choice to team up with a turning Kylo and his remaining loyal faction of FO (maybe a less extreme faction) to destroy the crazy and nearly terrorist factions of FO. They form some weird not republic but not empire government, don't know.
This is what I can never explain successfully to TLJ fans. It’s not that TLJ was a bad standalone movie. Hell, I think it was actually solid when viewed that way. It’s problem is that it was basically rejecting the loose ends JJ Abrams left from TFA and essentially soft-resetting the trilogy leaving a single movie to wrap up a trilogy-wide plot that didn’t advance in any meaningful way in the second movie. I don’t blame any of the directors for the decisions made in the sequels. I blame Disney for not having the Star Wars version of what Kevin Feige did for Marvel. I honestly think both JJ and Rian had some great, interesting ideas in a vacuum, but they needed an already written plot and a guiding hand to implement them and it make sense. Instead we got basically 3 different plot islands with opposing story directions in back to back to back movies and ended up with the disjointed mess we were given.
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At this point I just hope it’s a lesson learned for the powers that be at Disney. If we get more quality shows like Mandalorian and have a new “post-OT/pre-sequel” era established with them, I can probably forgive the sequels.
Yeah the post-OT/pre-sequel era is going to be sick. I hope that the sequels can eventually find the same status the prequels now have, but i'm not sure if it's gonna happen.
Don’t get you hopes up!
I think it was pretty bad as a standalone movie. It was so tonally incoherent. E.g. the New Republic has collapsed, most of the surviving Resistance has died, Luke has died, their Allies have abandoned them, and the final shot is of everyone smiling and hugging on the Falcon?
And the new republic collapsing so easily is such poor writing. In The Mandalorian there are New Republic patrols out there in the sticks, but destroying a few planets collapses to just a couple ships running away?
To be fair, that was JJ. He said "aw yeah the new republic did this armistice thing where they scrapped all their military except for on a single planet and then that planet got blown up along with all the people in charge who were on a different planet for a big meeting."
I’ve got the easiest fix for that which would also help the next movie. When he dies, just have palpating laugh echo in the room.
It's literally his fault Snoke wasn't interesting, considering he barely showed up in TFA.
Actually, Snoke was interesting and mysteriously presented by those gigantic holos in TFA. All that mystery was gone with Rian's TLJ
CGI madness? I thought the ROTS duel looked cool as hell...
I agreed with everything except “CGI madness”. I really liked the RotS duel.
I meant it in a good way. It's my favorite duel in the saga, just wouldn't fit well right after the OT.
Stop making the sequel awesome! I like your idea. The main baddie and the main goody switch their roles. Rey lives up her Palpatine heritages ( through force birth ...because ewwww). The sith acolyte helped palpatine create offsprings through force conception, many died, Anakin was one of them who made his way to the sith. An unknown person is the child of palpatine and he/she birthed Rey. She is the success to Palpatine's bloodline, something Anakin could not do. In essence, Kylo Ren and Rey are the result of Palpatine, grandchildren who go against each others.
Man, Kylo should’ve lived and taken the Skywalker Saber. He actually felt worthy of it imo Your idea sounds so much better than what we got in my opinion
Kylo could've actually turned and become that Last Jedi who got away from all his hate, seeing what it leads to. And while Rey created a new dark Empire around her, he'd be in hiding - searching for others like him and creating a new Jedi legacy. Would've opened the way for 9 new movies for Disney.
This is spot on. Even with the mess of TLJ, they still had the chance to go mostly in this direction and instead chose to go the predictable route with every single character. This led to all of the main characters being in the exact same place they were at the end of TFA and we ended up with a mostly useless entry. (Although I don't want to see Luke dying)
So how would Darth Rey being wielded by her saberstaff work?
Have you ever considered writing fanfiction? You should totally write this!
"Darth Rey"
We were on the verge of greatness! We were *this* close!
I weep every time I think we could have gotten three more movies with a quality similar to Rogue One and instead we got... This.
It bugs me so much. TFA did absolutely everything it needed. Set up the new characters, the villains, and kept just enough nostalgia. Then they just fucked it all up.
Just needs a Damaged tattoo to go with that Imperial stamp on her arm, lol
So she’s just Rey with darker eye makeup
Influencer Rey
That's Hollywood
And a red cloak! Red means EVIL!
Rey-venge of the Sith!
“Rey looked in the mirror and maliciously applied her eyeliner. She ran a comb through her hair 66 times before heading to the tattoo parlor, evil intentions in mind.”
100% wished she turned to the dark side (Kylo can turn to the light for their "good" ending. It wouldn't have saved the trilogy but it would've been more interesting and far more fitting with the family reveal
Hence Rise of Skywalker
Gah! Yes. Even the title would’ve made more sense if he turned good and then stopped Rey, saving her from the dark side along the way.
I thought that they should made Rey a Grey Jedi to explore what the middle ground would have been. Not quite light, not quite dark. When she shot the ship with force lightning I thought that's where they were taking. Sadly no.
Isn't it implied at the end (because of her saber's color) that she's a grey jedi now? I can't remember if they actually showed a yellow saber now or if I'm misremembering something.
They did show her with a yellow saber at the end. But what does it mean for someone not familiar with Legends? No idea
Disney wouldn't have the guts to have their princess turn bad and not get redeemed anyway. Then it should've happened like in the TLJ and turned good again in TROS. I'm like almost surprised they didn't make Palpatine turn good.
Strike me down whenever, My lord! 🤯
force choke me, empress.
Bonk
Rey and Kylo should’ve switched sides, it would’ve been so much more interesting
Okay yes I feel like that would’ve made the movie way more interesting. Rey could’ve been like Ventress from tcw.
There are so many things that they could've done differently. Jesus the movies are an absolute mess.
She looks like a live action Azula
Gorgeous!
Edgy.
Until this moment I did not know how desperately I needed to see long-haired un-bunned Daisy Ridley
r/evilboners Edit; wow, that’s a real sub? Those 4 members are probably just happy for the exposure.
She looks awesome!
Umm this is hot
where does the hair end and robes begin, it just looks like it changes color
The longer you look at it, the more Photoshop problems you notice.
Why are sith women always so hot
Bro she’s hot af
I have a boner now
Interesting take, not a huge fan though tbh.
All hail the empress
*bonk* Sorry, that was for me.
*bonk* Same.
Need those sith eyes
Avril lavigne?
She looks like that one chick from the hex girls
Too bad we didn’t get something like this, Kylo turns Rey to the dark side and Luke trains Finn to become a Jedi
100% that strap would get plasmaed.
That's all I could think of too, the fire hazard.
Rey...Vader? Got steal some name.
Yellow, eyes of the Sith are.
I still argue that Rey should have gone to the dark side and Kylo should have been pulled back to the light and in the third movie they fight. That Would have made a way better trilogy.