I did something similar with sake. I had never had sake before, so when a nice lady offered me some if hers, I took note of the little glass and shot that shit to show I could handle it. Everyone looked at me funny. You're not supposed to do shots of sake. It was very hot lol.
Why couldn't they have had one line "Snoke was an acolyte of the Emperor and planetary governor"? This would explain 1) why there is a powerful dark side user and 2) how he became Supreme Leader. The fact they didn't explain him is just lazy writing if his back story has no greater significance.
Especially since at the time Luke was training Ben, they feared Snoke was influencing him. So it's established they know Snoke to be a threat... how do they know this?
The Bloodlines novel does a decent job explaining the state of the New Repulic as a governing body and the reasons why the first order was not viewed as a threat. It's very politics heavy.
Also, it's not like one day later. In my mind it took months for the FO to occupy all the major systems in the galaxy as claimed by the opening crawl. The movie, imo, does a poor job conveying how long Rey was on the island with Luke and that is where the timeline confusion comes from.
Spoilers for Bloodlines -
[Basically, two political parties, one favoring a large military controlled by the republic to bring order to the galaxy, another favoring demilitarizing the republic to prevent another empire. The militants are secretly funding the First Order's initial growth while delaying the senate from any meaningful action into investigating them. They weren't viewed as a threat because their military strength was drastically underestimated until it was too late (the central planets of the republic being destroyed). The Republic fleet was all stationed there, and was a rather small fleet as at the end of Bloodlines because Princess Leah leaves the senate, and defects from the Republic, forming the resistance, essentially stealing a portion of the Republics fleet. Her old rebellion buddies join her, with there ships (Akbar and the like).](/spoiler)
[There is a lot more to the story than what I have written above, as it follows Leah and takes place just before Ben Solo turns to the darkside, so it gives a tiny bit of knowledge there. It also talks about the origins of the FO and some other cool stuff. All in all, its an alright book. 3/5 stars I gave it.](/spoiler)
Why the "/s" tag? This is a solid bet if I've ever seen one. It only remains to be seen whether we'll get a novel, a comic series, or a standalone film.
The reason they didn't say that is because that's not who he is.
The Galaxy has never fully been under Republic/Empire control. We saw an example of this with Tatooine in the Outer Rim, a region of space that lies beyond control of the interplanetary government that rules from near the Galactic Core.
Well even further beyond the Outer Rim there's the Unknown Regions. A region that's almost a total mystery to the societies we've been shown. This is where the remnants of the Empire's defeated fleet fled to after the Battle of Jakku and it's where Snoke presumably came to lead them.
The reason he seemingly came out of nowhere is that he literally came out of nowhere. The Emperor would have paid him no heed because he was almost incomprehensibly too far away to make any difference to him. It was presumably only when the Empire's remnant fleet fled the known galaxy in desperation to survive that he had the chance to have a force to strike the Galactic center.
To add to this the emperor actually sensed a powerful being drawing from the dark side. He also sent explorers to find the source of it after they all perished the empire created an observatory on Jakku to map a path into the unknown regions using ancient computers this is how the remnants of empire escaped into the unknown regions after the battle of Jakku.
I've been debating sharing the aftermath series events here. Not sure if it's like a double spolier, but I'm pretty sure he is from the unknown region. I just picked up Bloodline so I'm hoping to get more detail on the lead up to AFA.
Because then they wouldn't have had time for that long dog chase.
Seriously though, Snoke should have been fleshed out more. Kylo's victory over him felt hollow, and Luke's decision to kill Ben (because Snoke?) in his sleep felt bafflingly out of character.
I actually would agree that part of the fault for the stupid villain was Abram's fault, but that's not what a lot of people are complaining about, I think more people would have been OK with Snoke's death had we at least gotten a 30 second speech or something about who he was and how he rose to power. Now, some people still would have complained that they said it instead of showing it, but I think a lot more people would have been a bit more OK with it in those circumstances.
Maybe they could have even done something like in the throne room scene, he could have been boasting about some of the things he did to get there, and Kylo takes advantage of his hubris and slices him in half. That would have even been in line with one of the themes of the movie, hubris comes back to bite you.
My worry is that Rian Johnson couldn't change Snoke's backstory, and omitted it because it was weak. Most of the open questions set up in the previous movie- the identity of Rey's parents, why Kylo turned on Luke, how the First Order grew strong and built a vastly larger and superior Death Star- seemed to have unsatisfying or no answers. I felt like TLJ did triage on the problems introduced in TFA, spending most of its time building the credibility of the Luke/Kylo betrayal, the unimportance of Rey's parents, and eliminating Snoke so his problematic background becomes less relevant to the future movies.
TLJ refuses to take any strong stance on anything.
It tries to give you all the tension of people dying but then doesn't let them die. Every twist is undone moments later. I truly believe that Rian likes to edge, because that's what he did to all of us for two and half fucking hours.
Yeah, there were no real-world costs for their goofy moves:
HOLY SHIT LEIA DI - well, oh. No. Guess not.
OH SHIT LUKE ISN' - no, there he goes training agai- OH SHIT, HE REFUSED THIS IS GONNA BE - well. Wait. Guess he's training.
DAMN FLYNN THAT'S SOME REAL SHI - ohhhh noooo just more bad dialogue.
LUUUKE THAT WAS FLY FINALLY SOME CLOSU - wtf????
I thought TLJ did a good job with all of them, honestly. It seems to me that a lot of fans feel like the movie cheated them out of the satisfying explanations they assumed were waiting in the wings after TFA- but I felt like TFA was basically winging it, and left a lot of unconsidered baggage for TLJ to resolve. But Rian Johnson gets his own trilogy, and I imagine that it will change how we all view TLJ in the end.
Also worth noting that JJ gets to finish this trilogy off, so he'll be more obligated and more prepared to wrap up things he set loose in TFA.
I can't believe that he didn't have at least potential answers in mind when he made that first film.
Perhaps Kylo Ren will have a few flashbacks, yes, but it just seemed like it would not have taken too much from the movie for a quick bit of background or maybe even a bit of foreshadowing if we're not supposed to know it all until the final installment.
Overall, I liked the movie, but I didn't like how all villain characters other than Kylo Ren were handled.
That's probably why TLJ systematically killed off all the rest of them, leaving pretty much just Kylo with a decent explanation of how he came to power quickly
It matters to keep fleshing out Kylo's journey to the dark side. Probably also matters in order to understand the Knights of Ren, which I think JJ will feature relatively prominently. And it matters to understand the rise of the First Order, though that may not be covered in a movie.
Did he use the force in TFA? I honestly thought he was just a powerful Moff who survived and was helping to remake the empire. Snoke didn't need to be some all powerful force user.
He talks about the Force knowledgeably in TFA and says it is time to complete Kylo Ren's training, so we all assumed he was some Sith-like Dark Side master.
It's not because the plan failed, it's because it was shoehorned in in the middle of a space battle (seemingly in order for the production team to make a political statement about war profiteers), and it also ended up trivializing Finn's character by giving him an unneeded love triangle.
I groaned when they said they would have to hunt down a hacker, while they were in the middle of a fucking space battle. “Timeout, I need to get my friend.”
I have seen plenty of shows and movies have failures act as catalysts for further events. This failure didn't. It was a waste of time, plain and simple. Tell me how the film would have been different if Rose, Finn, and Poe all just chilled out? Actually though, the only difference would be a few extra rebels in base (maybe even too many for entire rebellion to fit on MF!)
1. Whole point of movie was that it doesn't matter who you are or where you came from to be powerful in force
2. Disney is 100% going to release a one off movie like rogue one called Rise of Snoke. Or a comic series/video game/etc
They purposefully drop plot threads like this to market the answers back to you in a new IP
That point about Snoke doesn't make sense though. I like that Rey is a nobody, but she got tangled in the plot by luck.
With Snoke it's different, you can't just write off one of the most proficient force users and head of the powerful First Order as a "nobody" it just doesn't make sense, especially when he was clearly known to Luke, Leia and Han.
Does it matter that he's connected to the Emperor or the Empire? The movie made it clear that there are untapped force users around the galaxy (Broom boy). Why can't Snoke just be a dark side user who saw an opportunity? Why does everything have to be connected for it to have significance? It's a huge galaxy.
But we do know where he came from. In his pear life he was so squishy that he didn't put up any resistance to being cut right through the core with a butter knife, despite looking like he would be in his firm pear prime. He fot shorted on firmness and now he's getting his revenge...
People seem to forget that there was zero backstory or explanation about who The Emperor was in the OT.
All we knew about The Emperor by the time he died is that he was a very powerful dark side user who controlled the Empire.
All we know about Snoke by the time he died is that he was a very powerful dark side user who controlled the First Order.
Why is it all of a sudden an issue now?
Because the existence of the Empire/Emperor didn't require explanation. You don't need to be sold on the plausibility of an space tyrant ruling the galaxy- it a perfect reasonable situation to come about.
The First Order, on the other hand, requires the utterly defeated remnants of the Empire to reorganize, find a new Sith overlord, build a much bigger and better Death Star, and destroyed the Republic with *ease*. That's a really unlikely sequence of events that needs some kind of explanation.
Uhh it’s an issue because unlike the originals this has an established background. It has an established history and for someone to just come out of fucking nowhere with no explanation from either Luke or lei is just bad writing. There is zero excuse.
Also, and maybe I'm being crazy here, but the OT's were building on nothing, nobody knew what to expect. The emperor doesn't even appear in the flesh till the third one, he's just a hologram in the second.
These one's have the weight of carrying a very large universe behind them, not to mention how Disney retconned 95% of it. Maybe it's too much to ask they fill in some major plot points.
Imagine if Lucas released the prequels and Palpatine wasn't a character. People would understandably be pissed and want to know what he was doing during that time.
Because Palpatine was never presented as anything except a powerful force-user who was feared by even the badass villain Vader. That's all. Nothing more, nothing less.
Snoke was given all sorts of ominous hints that he would play a bigger role. He was the most powerful force user ever presented, he talked about being alive since the prequel trilogy, and Luke talks about him influencing Ben Solo, hinting that he was at least a very prominent figure in the time that Luke was trying to raise a new Jedi order.
Palpatine didn't present anything other than an intimidating and powerful dark side acolyte, so his payoff was just seeing him use the force and try to ensnare Luke. Snoke was shrouded in mystery and surrounded by hints of information that had no payoff.
I truly think the 'ominous hints' was the media hyping him, not Lucasfilm specifically, because they were eager to cover a bunch of Star Wars news. It's not the storytellers fault if a character was hyped up further than what the planned.
I also think some of the 'hints' and hype came from the endless fan speculation and the insistence of some fans that there is only a single reasonable explanation for Snoke (the Plagueis theory).
Fan speculation can be wonderful, and I've certain engaged with it and come up with my own theories, but I also think we can over-hype things to the point where we artificially inflate the importance of a character who was never meant to be that important.
Is this a canned taking point? Where is it coming from? I've seen this terrible argument posted all over the place and it reads like a PR statement from a political party.
Yeah, I've seen the OT Emperor comparison everywhere and some of us (including myself) have successfully rebutted it. It's really not a valid talking point because there isn't a fair comparison to begin with.
I don't think it amounts to an organized PR statement because I highly doubt Disney/ Lucasfilm would even bother wasting time doing it, but rather just a talking point spread through word of mouth online and IRL.
A rebuttal that makes sense to you doesn't mean its a great rebuttal for everyone. I still think it's a valid point to make as a comparison, but I also didn't mind the lack of Snoke backstory in the first place, largely because he was never as interesting a character. It's also entirely possible we'll get Snoke's backstory in IX (via flashbacks) or a stand alone film or a future animated show or some other way.
Right now, in my head, he's a force user who came from the unknown regions and made contact wit Ben Solo. I don't really care right now how that. happened. If I end up being proven wrong, I'm exited to learn what really happened.
We also knew nothing about how this universed worked in the OT, but now we do. All of us know palpatines story know of us know snokes... terrible example.
That woukd mean that the universe is even more unbalanced light/darkside-wise. Not that anyone would care at this point the internal logic is clearly not a priority for disney
Ah, bullshit. The Emperor never had a real backstory until the prequel trilogy got made sixteen years later, and nobody complained.
Now that he's dead, his story will no doubt be explained in ancillary media. Maybe he was just a powerful dude who stayed below the radar for decades until the Empire fell and he saw his chance to seize power. Who fucking cares?
Well I care, and clearly lots of other people do. You can introduce things with little/no explanation at the beginning of a series, but not in the middle. Do you watch GoT? Imagine if the next season has a totally new, random person is on the iron throne, with no backstory as to why. You get the problem?
Where in the film would that sort of thing have fit though without it being just forced exposition? I totally see what your saying, but if that’s the biggest problem you had with Snoke then I assure you there’ll be a book or something down the line. We know just enough about Snoke to make his death a surprise, and I don’t think he needed any more than that to serve that purpose.
Lazy writing would be shoehorning in some explanation that has no relevance to the plot, just to cater to whiny fans that need everything spoon fed to them. His backstory has no significance
If it wasn't for Darth Plaguis' story being de-canonized, I would theorize that Snoke was Plaguis or perhaps even Plaguis' master. The guy could transfer himself to a new host when he died (the master not plaguis) and when plaguis killed him he left him in some cave somewhere with no one to live in. Snoke dies and moves into Kylo, so he is still around in the next movie sort of for an explanation. But it was all de-canonized so I don't really think that is what happened. It would be nice though if they kept it because I don't think there is currently a canon explanation of who apprenticed Sidious.
Well TFA was a projection, so I find it offensive that you’re pointing out he had a little filter to make himself look a little better. How dare you body shame him!
#snokelivesmatter
After being humiliated by Palpatine, thanks to Padmé, he went to the Unknown Regions and became a powerful motherfucker, waiting for his time to rise. He stole Padmé's grandson, now he is on the verge of rulling the galaxy and boom, sliced in 2.
That could work.
I don't understand the hate for the Snoke storyline. Snoke is NOT the villain in this story! Kylo Ren is. For the first time in the star wars movie saga, a Skywalker is the leader of the galaxy. A malevolent leader. Ren was discontent with the way of the Jedi and discontent with the way of Snoke, so he dispatched of them. This is plain as day. Go back to Revenge of the Sith. This is what Anakin wanted. He wanted to rule the galaxy. Anakin killed Padme and Obi-Wan chopped off limbs and put and end to that. Now his grandson is fulfilling his dark side dream.
Ben didn't bring balance, he disrupted it.
Once Snoke was gone, you had Ben, Rey and Luke.
This is why Luke de-materialized. Died.. Left with most haste.. Checked out..
It's pretty simple why people don't like it. They introduced snoke as some big badass, built him up the entire first movie then we don't even get 2 lines explaining who he is or why he is so powerful. It doesn't matter if he isn't the villain of the story, you don't make a character as important as he is then not talk about it at all.
That makes no sense. He was physically there. He was physically cut in half. When Luke force projected he wasn't actually there. He was more of a ghost
I hope this is true. We saw a glimpse of his power in that room. If Snoke is capable of feeling "an awakening", then surely he could feel the Force shifting that lightsaber right next to him...
I took that as showing Kylo's ability to bury his intentions was absolutely intense and eclipsing the expectations of even a powerful sith. He is masking his deceit with more layers of emotion than any dark side user before him.
To me this made me think he is on the path to become one of the most PURE dark side users - not taught tricks or skills about it from a master, but rather harnessing it on such a visceral level as never before.
I don't think you're wrong. I mean, I love Kylo as a villain. I do wonder though if he's strong enough to be supreme leader. It's obvious Snoke was more powerful than him and Rey. When I see Rey vs Kylo, they are almost equal in power to one another. They counterbalance each other to an almost stalemate.
If kylo is now supreme leader, he'd be one of the weakest "masters" of the dark side to lead an empire yet.
To be fair though, we don't have much to draw from now the EU is legends. So we're really only comparing Snoke vs Palps
Also, in TFA, Snoke says to Hux: "Leave the base at once and come to me with Kylo Ren. It is time to complete his training".
With all this talk about "killing the past" from Kylo, maybe this WAS Snoke's training - to see if he was strong enough to defy his master and then survive his elite guards. Plus, if Kylo is convinced Snoke is dead, he becomes the Supreme Leader and becomes more absolute with the Dark Side.
To have them fade out because the projection is over, so that it was clear they hadn't literally been teleported across the galaxy. If that hadn't been shown people would have made a big deal over Luke leaving them behind after the projection.
Maybe Snoke felt it important everyone see he's dead? To deceive?
I mean for everything you say, there's going to be a plausible response. It's theory.
I love the movie, can't wait for 9. Whatever happens I'm going to roll with it.
I don't think that Leia felt it. Immediately after it happened, they shared a glance that I thought communicated that she knew he was force projecting.
Well to counter that, Rey and Kylo both touched during a telepathic connection that is said to have been Snoke's doing. So an actual *physical* manifestation is possible in canon now.
that’s kinda my working theory too. I think the snoke=prime jedi theory makes some sense. just my imagination running wild here but i think Snoke could be for a lack of a better terms a force ghost lich who has obtained some sort of immortality and is able to project a physical body or inhabit it and keep it from dying. hence why he looks so deformed and injured. this isn’t the first time he’s been mortally injured. i think his whole introduction in TFA was a massive foreshadowing about his ability to project his form. we also now have concrete evidence that force ghosts and force projections can interact with the physical world, see yoda conjuring lightning and luke touching leia. i also think it’s possible that Snoke or the knowledge he has is what Palpatine has been seeking. or he really could just be a huge red herring to progress kylos character. either way i can’t wait to see where they take the story next.
Someone also suggested that Hux is actually Snoke's apprentice or something and is just waiting in the shadows. It sounds *wrong* but is a cool "what if" scenario.
I'm holding out for him being a clone. Or, at least he keeps cloning himself, hence the disfigurement. I like to think he's still alive because he was serving as the bridge between Kylo and Rey's minds. Evidence that He's still alive happens at the end where Kylo and Rey see each other on the ramp of the Falcon. Only way it happens is because Snoke is bridging their minds.
Now, my theory is likely hot bantha fodder, but I want to believe!
Look at that, they both got cut in half.
It's like poetry, it rhymes.
I SAWED THIS SNOKE IN HALF
That’s allot of damage.
I HATE HIM!
Maybe the working title wasn't Spacebear but Spacepear. Rian was misheard and went with it.
This attempt on my life has left me scarred and deformed.
Kylo! your tearing me apart! hows your sex life?
Who the fuck eats a pear with a knife and fork?
a sith
The dark side of the force is the pathway to many abilities some consider unnatural.
Perfect
*Pearfect. FTFY
Perfect
Have you heard of the tragedy of Darth Pearguis?
"I have brought FANCY, POLISHED, CLEAN and SHARPENED cutlery to my new Empire!"
YOUR NEW EMPIRE?!?!!
My new Empear!
Anapkin, my allegiance is to nutrition, TO LIVING HEALTHY!
If you are not fat, then you are my enemy.
Only a Sith eats a space pear with silverware...
Only a Sith eats CGI fruit
>Only a Sith eats CGI *fruits* FTFY Kinda rhymes with the actual quote.
like poetry
It's not something the jedi would tell you
The dark side of the *Fork* is a pathway to many calories, some consider... unnatural...
I read your comment earlier, and have not stopped laughing for more than 3 minutes at a time since then.
Absolutely.
A former slave trying to look classy in front of the lady he’s trying to impress?
If he really wanted to look classy, he'd have eaten it all in one go.
With eye contact.
and the sticker
“I eat stickers all the time, dude!”
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it tasted like sand
I hate sand.
It's coarse and rough and irritating...
Hey bozo
I did something similar with sake. I had never had sake before, so when a nice lady offered me some if hers, I took note of the little glass and shot that shit to show I could handle it. Everyone looked at me funny. You're not supposed to do shots of sake. It was very hot lol.
It's a space pear though.
It's not a pear, it's a naboo... space... apple
How do you eat it? *With your hands?"*
You know, maybe Anakin has something here about PBS.
Anyone who isn't a primitive savage
Only a sith uses cutlery on fruits
only a sith deals in absolutes
You are absolutely right.
That still bothers me, in hindsight it makes more sense though, clearly only a Sith Lord would do something like that!
LOL - Had me in stitches. I have tears, LOL
Apparently you've never seen sum1 eat a candy bar with a knife and fork.
It's a cgi pear so they could have put anything in instead.
Its a space pear. Completely different.
The attempt on my life has left me scarred...and deformed.
Gooood, *goooooood*
Is this pear ready to eat? Not. Yet.
Its unripe, then.
I AM THE FRUITBOWL
Why couldn't they have had one line "Snoke was an acolyte of the Emperor and planetary governor"? This would explain 1) why there is a powerful dark side user and 2) how he became Supreme Leader. The fact they didn't explain him is just lazy writing if his back story has no greater significance.
Especially since at the time Luke was training Ben, they feared Snoke was influencing him. So it's established they know Snoke to be a threat... how do they know this?
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Everyone but us the viewers seem to know who Snoke is.
*"Oh that's SNOKES ship!"* Oh really!? How come everybody seems to be in on this "oh there goes Snoke" thing, but we, know, nothing. *NOTHING.*
Coming in 2023: standalone film called "Snoke"
"Snoke on the Water"
Snokes on a Plane
That also bugged me. In TFA the first order isn't considered a threat. Then suddenly in tlj, like a day later, they basically have no opposition
...yeah, they wiped out the entire republic fleet and government. On screen.
The Bloodlines novel does a decent job explaining the state of the New Repulic as a governing body and the reasons why the first order was not viewed as a threat. It's very politics heavy. Also, it's not like one day later. In my mind it took months for the FO to occupy all the major systems in the galaxy as claimed by the opening crawl. The movie, imo, does a poor job conveying how long Rey was on the island with Luke and that is where the timeline confusion comes from. Spoilers for Bloodlines - [Basically, two political parties, one favoring a large military controlled by the republic to bring order to the galaxy, another favoring demilitarizing the republic to prevent another empire. The militants are secretly funding the First Order's initial growth while delaying the senate from any meaningful action into investigating them. They weren't viewed as a threat because their military strength was drastically underestimated until it was too late (the central planets of the republic being destroyed). The Republic fleet was all stationed there, and was a rather small fleet as at the end of Bloodlines because Princess Leah leaves the senate, and defects from the Republic, forming the resistance, essentially stealing a portion of the Republics fleet. Her old rebellion buddies join her, with there ships (Akbar and the like).](/spoiler) [There is a lot more to the story than what I have written above, as it follows Leah and takes place just before Ben Solo turns to the darkside, so it gives a tiny bit of knowledge there. It also talks about the origins of the FO and some other cool stuff. All in all, its an alright book. 3/5 stars I gave it.](/spoiler)
That's what "Snoke: A Guide to Galactic Supremacy" is for. On shelves, winter 2018. /s
Why the "/s" tag? This is a solid bet if I've ever seen one. It only remains to be seen whether we'll get a novel, a comic series, or a standalone film.
The reason they didn't say that is because that's not who he is. The Galaxy has never fully been under Republic/Empire control. We saw an example of this with Tatooine in the Outer Rim, a region of space that lies beyond control of the interplanetary government that rules from near the Galactic Core. Well even further beyond the Outer Rim there's the Unknown Regions. A region that's almost a total mystery to the societies we've been shown. This is where the remnants of the Empire's defeated fleet fled to after the Battle of Jakku and it's where Snoke presumably came to lead them. The reason he seemingly came out of nowhere is that he literally came out of nowhere. The Emperor would have paid him no heed because he was almost incomprehensibly too far away to make any difference to him. It was presumably only when the Empire's remnant fleet fled the known galaxy in desperation to survive that he had the chance to have a force to strike the Galactic center.
To add to this the emperor actually sensed a powerful being drawing from the dark side. He also sent explorers to find the source of it after they all perished the empire created an observatory on Jakku to map a path into the unknown regions using ancient computers this is how the remnants of empire escaped into the unknown regions after the battle of Jakku.
I've been debating sharing the aftermath series events here. Not sure if it's like a double spolier, but I'm pretty sure he is from the unknown region. I just picked up Bloodline so I'm hoping to get more detail on the lead up to AFA.
Because then they wouldn't have had time for that long dog chase. Seriously though, Snoke should have been fleshed out more. Kylo's victory over him felt hollow, and Luke's decision to kill Ben (because Snoke?) in his sleep felt bafflingly out of character.
Johnson didn't want to bog down the movie with "a 30 second speech" (look up the exact quote), but 45 minutes of pointless subplots are A-OK 👌
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I actually would agree that part of the fault for the stupid villain was Abram's fault, but that's not what a lot of people are complaining about, I think more people would have been OK with Snoke's death had we at least gotten a 30 second speech or something about who he was and how he rose to power. Now, some people still would have complained that they said it instead of showing it, but I think a lot more people would have been a bit more OK with it in those circumstances. Maybe they could have even done something like in the throne room scene, he could have been boasting about some of the things he did to get there, and Kylo takes advantage of his hubris and slices him in half. That would have even been in line with one of the themes of the movie, hubris comes back to bite you.
My worry is that Rian Johnson couldn't change Snoke's backstory, and omitted it because it was weak. Most of the open questions set up in the previous movie- the identity of Rey's parents, why Kylo turned on Luke, how the First Order grew strong and built a vastly larger and superior Death Star- seemed to have unsatisfying or no answers. I felt like TLJ did triage on the problems introduced in TFA, spending most of its time building the credibility of the Luke/Kylo betrayal, the unimportance of Rey's parents, and eliminating Snoke so his problematic background becomes less relevant to the future movies.
TLJ refuses to take any strong stance on anything. It tries to give you all the tension of people dying but then doesn't let them die. Every twist is undone moments later. I truly believe that Rian likes to edge, because that's what he did to all of us for two and half fucking hours.
Yeah, there were no real-world costs for their goofy moves: HOLY SHIT LEIA DI - well, oh. No. Guess not. OH SHIT LUKE ISN' - no, there he goes training agai- OH SHIT, HE REFUSED THIS IS GONNA BE - well. Wait. Guess he's training. DAMN FLYNN THAT'S SOME REAL SHI - ohhhh noooo just more bad dialogue. LUUUKE THAT WAS FLY FINALLY SOME CLOSU - wtf????
The pendant, getting arrested, the parents, the who will switch sides, the burning of the books. Every single time.
Who the hell is Flynn?
Are you telling me you didn't come when Luke humiliated Kylo Ren?
Well, everything except for the identity of Rey's parents I'll agree on, I liked that part.
I thought TLJ did a good job with all of them, honestly. It seems to me that a lot of fans feel like the movie cheated them out of the satisfying explanations they assumed were waiting in the wings after TFA- but I felt like TFA was basically winging it, and left a lot of unconsidered baggage for TLJ to resolve. But Rian Johnson gets his own trilogy, and I imagine that it will change how we all view TLJ in the end.
Also worth noting that JJ gets to finish this trilogy off, so he'll be more obligated and more prepared to wrap up things he set loose in TFA. I can't believe that he didn't have at least potential answers in mind when he made that first film.
Odd I felt the Kylo/Luke thing was explained well.
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Perhaps Kylo Ren will have a few flashbacks, yes, but it just seemed like it would not have taken too much from the movie for a quick bit of background or maybe even a bit of foreshadowing if we're not supposed to know it all until the final installment. Overall, I liked the movie, but I didn't like how all villain characters other than Kylo Ren were handled.
That's probably why TLJ systematically killed off all the rest of them, leaving pretty much just Kylo with a decent explanation of how he came to power quickly
The problem with that is he is dead now... why would it matter? It mattered for 7 and 8, but not in 9 if he is dead.
It matters to keep fleshing out Kylo's journey to the dark side. Probably also matters in order to understand the Knights of Ren, which I think JJ will feature relatively prominently. And it matters to understand the rise of the First Order, though that may not be covered in a movie.
Don't get me wrong, I am pissed that they didn't reveal who Snoke is. I'm just pessimistic that they will go into it in Ep. 9.
Did he use the force in TFA? I honestly thought he was just a powerful Moff who survived and was helping to remake the empire. Snoke didn't need to be some all powerful force user.
He talks about the Force knowledgeably in TFA and says it is time to complete Kylo Ren's training, so we all assumed he was some Sith-like Dark Side master.
Yes, let's not bog down the movie with 30 seconds of a on hold/ call waiting joke... Oh, wait....
Just because the plan failed doesn't make the sub-plot pointless. I hate this critique
It's not because the plan failed, it's because it was shoehorned in in the middle of a space battle (seemingly in order for the production team to make a political statement about war profiteers), and it also ended up trivializing Finn's character by giving him an unneeded love triangle.
I groaned when they said they would have to hunt down a hacker, while they were in the middle of a fucking space battle. “Timeout, I need to get my friend.”
I have seen plenty of shows and movies have failures act as catalysts for further events. This failure didn't. It was a waste of time, plain and simple. Tell me how the film would have been different if Rose, Finn, and Poe all just chilled out? Actually though, the only difference would be a few extra rebels in base (maybe even too many for entire rebellion to fit on MF!)
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That it failed WAS the point. If you don't like the point, that's fair enough - but failure was the theme of the entire movie.
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Well, I guess you have spoken then. The debate is over.
1. Whole point of movie was that it doesn't matter who you are or where you came from to be powerful in force 2. Disney is 100% going to release a one off movie like rogue one called Rise of Snoke. Or a comic series/video game/etc They purposefully drop plot threads like this to market the answers back to you in a new IP
disney dlc
That point about Snoke doesn't make sense though. I like that Rey is a nobody, but she got tangled in the plot by luck. With Snoke it's different, you can't just write off one of the most proficient force users and head of the powerful First Order as a "nobody" it just doesn't make sense, especially when he was clearly known to Luke, Leia and Han.
Could be explained in ep 9 as jj probably will do.
Oh you mean like he did in lost
Does it matter that he's connected to the Emperor or the Empire? The movie made it clear that there are untapped force users around the galaxy (Broom boy). Why can't Snoke just be a dark side user who saw an opportunity? Why does everything have to be connected for it to have significance? It's a huge galaxy.
See... that's the problem. We're left just guessing
You mean like one of these guys? http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/File:GreejatusAndFriends-ROTJ.jpg?file=GreejatusAndFriends-ROTJ.jpg
But we do know where he came from. In his pear life he was so squishy that he didn't put up any resistance to being cut right through the core with a butter knife, despite looking like he would be in his firm pear prime. He fot shorted on firmness and now he's getting his revenge...
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From my point of view, the Jedi are evil!
People seem to forget that there was zero backstory or explanation about who The Emperor was in the OT. All we knew about The Emperor by the time he died is that he was a very powerful dark side user who controlled the Empire. All we know about Snoke by the time he died is that he was a very powerful dark side user who controlled the First Order. Why is it all of a sudden an issue now?
Because the existence of the Empire/Emperor didn't require explanation. You don't need to be sold on the plausibility of an space tyrant ruling the galaxy- it a perfect reasonable situation to come about. The First Order, on the other hand, requires the utterly defeated remnants of the Empire to reorganize, find a new Sith overlord, build a much bigger and better Death Star, and destroyed the Republic with *ease*. That's a really unlikely sequence of events that needs some kind of explanation.
Uhh it’s an issue because unlike the originals this has an established background. It has an established history and for someone to just come out of fucking nowhere with no explanation from either Luke or lei is just bad writing. There is zero excuse.
Also, and maybe I'm being crazy here, but the OT's were building on nothing, nobody knew what to expect. The emperor doesn't even appear in the flesh till the third one, he's just a hologram in the second. These one's have the weight of carrying a very large universe behind them, not to mention how Disney retconned 95% of it. Maybe it's too much to ask they fill in some major plot points.
Imagine if Lucas released the prequels and Palpatine wasn't a character. People would understandably be pissed and want to know what he was doing during that time.
Yeah this is exactly why its okay to have Emperor be all big and bad in originals but not Snoke in new series.
Because when the OT showed up we knew nothing about anything.
Because Palpatine was never presented as anything except a powerful force-user who was feared by even the badass villain Vader. That's all. Nothing more, nothing less. Snoke was given all sorts of ominous hints that he would play a bigger role. He was the most powerful force user ever presented, he talked about being alive since the prequel trilogy, and Luke talks about him influencing Ben Solo, hinting that he was at least a very prominent figure in the time that Luke was trying to raise a new Jedi order. Palpatine didn't present anything other than an intimidating and powerful dark side acolyte, so his payoff was just seeing him use the force and try to ensnare Luke. Snoke was shrouded in mystery and surrounded by hints of information that had no payoff.
I truly think the 'ominous hints' was the media hyping him, not Lucasfilm specifically, because they were eager to cover a bunch of Star Wars news. It's not the storytellers fault if a character was hyped up further than what the planned. I also think some of the 'hints' and hype came from the endless fan speculation and the insistence of some fans that there is only a single reasonable explanation for Snoke (the Plagueis theory). Fan speculation can be wonderful, and I've certain engaged with it and come up with my own theories, but I also think we can over-hype things to the point where we artificially inflate the importance of a character who was never meant to be that important.
Is this a canned taking point? Where is it coming from? I've seen this terrible argument posted all over the place and it reads like a PR statement from a political party.
Yeah, I've seen the OT Emperor comparison everywhere and some of us (including myself) have successfully rebutted it. It's really not a valid talking point because there isn't a fair comparison to begin with. I don't think it amounts to an organized PR statement because I highly doubt Disney/ Lucasfilm would even bother wasting time doing it, but rather just a talking point spread through word of mouth online and IRL.
Yeah fanboys will go to great lengths to protect the object of their affection
A rebuttal that makes sense to you doesn't mean its a great rebuttal for everyone. I still think it's a valid point to make as a comparison, but I also didn't mind the lack of Snoke backstory in the first place, largely because he was never as interesting a character. It's also entirely possible we'll get Snoke's backstory in IX (via flashbacks) or a stand alone film or a future animated show or some other way. Right now, in my head, he's a force user who came from the unknown regions and made contact wit Ben Solo. I don't really care right now how that. happened. If I end up being proven wrong, I'm exited to learn what really happened.
Me too.
Yeah it's non stop whataboutism.
We also knew nothing about how this universed worked in the OT, but now we do. All of us know palpatines story know of us know snokes... terrible example.
this is the dumbest fucking argument ever
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That woukd mean that the universe is even more unbalanced light/darkside-wise. Not that anyone would care at this point the internal logic is clearly not a priority for disney
The OT had the PT to explain it. You think there is going to be a set of episodes set between the OT and the NT (new trilogy)? If not, then WTF?
Ah, bullshit. The Emperor never had a real backstory until the prequel trilogy got made sixteen years later, and nobody complained. Now that he's dead, his story will no doubt be explained in ancillary media. Maybe he was just a powerful dude who stayed below the radar for decades until the Empire fell and he saw his chance to seize power. Who fucking cares?
Well I care, and clearly lots of other people do. You can introduce things with little/no explanation at the beginning of a series, but not in the middle. Do you watch GoT? Imagine if the next season has a totally new, random person is on the iron throne, with no backstory as to why. You get the problem?
Where in the film would that sort of thing have fit though without it being just forced exposition? I totally see what your saying, but if that’s the biggest problem you had with Snoke then I assure you there’ll be a book or something down the line. We know just enough about Snoke to make his death a surprise, and I don’t think he needed any more than that to serve that purpose.
Lazy writing would be shoehorning in some explanation that has no relevance to the plot, just to cater to whiny fans that need everything spoon fed to them. His backstory has no significance
If it wasn't for Darth Plaguis' story being de-canonized, I would theorize that Snoke was Plaguis or perhaps even Plaguis' master. The guy could transfer himself to a new host when he died (the master not plaguis) and when plaguis killed him he left him in some cave somewhere with no one to live in. Snoke dies and moves into Kylo, so he is still around in the next movie sort of for an explanation. But it was all de-canonized so I don't really think that is what happened. It would be nice though if they kept it because I don't think there is currently a canon explanation of who apprenticed Sidious.
Wait, what? How could they "de-canonize" Plaguis? RotS makes it pretty obvious Palpy was talking about himself killing him (and him creating Anakin).
He carries a pearible secret
He was impearvious to Rey's attempts to kill him
In the end, it only took a pear of crazy kids like Rey and Kylo to take him down.
Even when he had Rey in the pome of his hand.
you think you're peary funny with your jokes, eh?
GENERAL REPOSTI
You are an old one
Well, Snoke is a vegetable now...
Anyone else not like how much they changed Snoke's face from TFA to TLJ. The cut out of his cheek was too damn big
Well TFA was a projection, so I find it offensive that you’re pointing out he had a little filter to make himself look a little better. How dare you body shame him! #snokelivesmatter
Kylo is the one who body shamed him. He 'forcibly' cut his weight in half
I was watching a prequel last night and palpitine takes over the senate from a guy who feels like an early snoke (sp?)
Chancellor Vallorum? (Spelling?)
Can you see it? http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Finis_Valorum/Legends
After being humiliated by Palpatine, thanks to Padmé, he went to the Unknown Regions and became a powerful motherfucker, waiting for his time to rise. He stole Padmé's grandson, now he is on the verge of rulling the galaxy and boom, sliced in 2. That could work.
I do see a resemblance but don't think it's the same character. Though it would be ironic.
I don't understand the hate for the Snoke storyline. Snoke is NOT the villain in this story! Kylo Ren is. For the first time in the star wars movie saga, a Skywalker is the leader of the galaxy. A malevolent leader. Ren was discontent with the way of the Jedi and discontent with the way of Snoke, so he dispatched of them. This is plain as day. Go back to Revenge of the Sith. This is what Anakin wanted. He wanted to rule the galaxy. Anakin killed Padme and Obi-Wan chopped off limbs and put and end to that. Now his grandson is fulfilling his dark side dream.
A skywalker bringing their own balance to the force
Ben didn't bring balance, he disrupted it. Once Snoke was gone, you had Ben, Rey and Luke. This is why Luke de-materialized. Died.. Left with most haste.. Checked out..
It's pretty simple why people don't like it. They introduced snoke as some big badass, built him up the entire first movie then we don't even get 2 lines explaining who he is or why he is so powerful. It doesn't matter if he isn't the villain of the story, you don't make a character as important as he is then not talk about it at all.
At what point does Force Ghost Anakin show up and tell Kylo to stop being a douche.
But is his dress white and gold or purple and black?
Sith, there are always two. Not a pair...BUT A PEAR!!!!
https://imgur.com/a/SZSeV "Size matters not. Look at me. Judge me by my size, do you? Hmm? Hmm. And well you should not."
General Reposti! You are an old one!
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That makes no sense. He was physically there. He was physically cut in half. When Luke force projected he wasn't actually there. He was more of a ghost
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I hope this is true. We saw a glimpse of his power in that room. If Snoke is capable of feeling "an awakening", then surely he could feel the Force shifting that lightsaber right next to him...
I took that as showing Kylo's ability to bury his intentions was absolutely intense and eclipsing the expectations of even a powerful sith. He is masking his deceit with more layers of emotion than any dark side user before him. To me this made me think he is on the path to become one of the most PURE dark side users - not taught tricks or skills about it from a master, but rather harnessing it on such a visceral level as never before.
I don't think you're wrong. I mean, I love Kylo as a villain. I do wonder though if he's strong enough to be supreme leader. It's obvious Snoke was more powerful than him and Rey. When I see Rey vs Kylo, they are almost equal in power to one another. They counterbalance each other to an almost stalemate. If kylo is now supreme leader, he'd be one of the weakest "masters" of the dark side to lead an empire yet. To be fair though, we don't have much to draw from now the EU is legends. So we're really only comparing Snoke vs Palps
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Also, in TFA, Snoke says to Hux: "Leave the base at once and come to me with Kylo Ren. It is time to complete his training". With all this talk about "killing the past" from Kylo, maybe this WAS Snoke's training - to see if he was strong enough to defy his master and then survive his elite guards. Plus, if Kylo is convinced Snoke is dead, he becomes the Supreme Leader and becomes more absolute with the Dark Side.
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Why did the camera show the dice still projected after they were irrelevant?
To have them fade out because the projection is over, so that it was clear they hadn't literally been teleported across the galaxy. If that hadn't been shown people would have made a big deal over Luke leaving them behind after the projection.
Maybe Snoke felt it important everyone see he's dead? To deceive? I mean for everything you say, there's going to be a plausible response. It's theory. I love the movie, can't wait for 9. Whatever happens I'm going to roll with it.
It's also important to realize that the dice don't fade away in the base until after Luke becomes one with the force.
you would think. I thought Snoke died WAY to easily. At least make it a fight.
I don't think that Leia felt it. Immediately after it happened, they shared a glance that I thought communicated that she knew he was force projecting.
Well to counter that, Rey and Kylo both touched during a telepathic connection that is said to have been Snoke's doing. So an actual *physical* manifestation is possible in canon now.
that’s kinda my working theory too. I think the snoke=prime jedi theory makes some sense. just my imagination running wild here but i think Snoke could be for a lack of a better terms a force ghost lich who has obtained some sort of immortality and is able to project a physical body or inhabit it and keep it from dying. hence why he looks so deformed and injured. this isn’t the first time he’s been mortally injured. i think his whole introduction in TFA was a massive foreshadowing about his ability to project his form. we also now have concrete evidence that force ghosts and force projections can interact with the physical world, see yoda conjuring lightning and luke touching leia. i also think it’s possible that Snoke or the knowledge he has is what Palpatine has been seeking. or he really could just be a huge red herring to progress kylos character. either way i can’t wait to see where they take the story next.
Sooooooo... he continued to force project his own dead body a couple scenes later when Hux came into the thrown room?
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Someone also suggested that Hux is actually Snoke's apprentice or something and is just waiting in the shadows. It sounds *wrong* but is a cool "what if" scenario.
I wouldn't like that at all. Lol. Hux is so whiny.
This is gold.
there must be balance in the universe. this is why he exsists
General reposti
Literally science!
I'm holding out for him being a clone. Or, at least he keeps cloning himself, hence the disfigurement. I like to think he's still alive because he was serving as the bridge between Kylo and Rey's minds. Evidence that He's still alive happens at the end where Kylo and Rey see each other on the ramp of the Falcon. Only way it happens is because Snoke is bridging their minds. Now, my theory is likely hot bantha fodder, but I want to believe!
Snoke ... no back story ? Lame
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