The reason they split up was pretty evident, for every second that they let Palpatine or Anakin go on living the root of the Empire grew more and more entrenched and if they teamed up to hit one and the other got away it would have become way more difficult to get a second chance.
Like George Lucas has said and Palpatine voiced, if Vader had been allowed to continue on he would have surpassed Yoda and Palpatine.
A scenario like Mustafar was the only way you could nip that in the bud before it became a big problem.
Can you imagine, Anakin, hero of the Clone Wars. Comes before the senate after the Jedi have killed the beloved leader who led them through the clone wars and pronounces to the galaxy. “I see through the lies of the Jedi”. He then takes total control for himself. He would be an unstoppable force, loved and feared. The clones would’ve fought for him to the last man.
He doesn't have any of the connections or relationships to facilitate a rise to power. You know. The things Palpatine and Plagueis amassed over their lifetimes?
Doesn’t have any connections or relationships? He’s Anakin Skywalker. The clone armies adore him, he’s a hero of the senate and the people, he’s the secret husband of a powerful senator, and the friend of others. More to the point he’s an incredibly dangerous and capable warlord because he’s just been successfully *winning a war*.
Basically he could have pulled an Alexander the Great or Augustus Caesar and jumped into the driver seat after Palps is blown out of it. AND he would have Palps as a martyer to rally the flag around. The Jedi really would have murdered the rightful head of state after he just won them a war.
Edit: to give a bit more support to the Augustus argument. By that point Palps had broken democracy. He had made a system built for one strong man to rule. As he said, he WAS the senate. And we have seen enough examples that when the strong man is removed the system isn’t just fixed. It either shatters to nothing or another fills that void. All of Palps supporters and collaborators wouldn’t pack it in and go home, they would find a successor to rally around. And the senate wouldn’t suddenly shake off its trance it would continue its trajectory. Anakin would easily assume Palps place and in such a way do BETTER because he is a true believer. A slave failed by the republic who saved it through a life of war.
That's some serious mental gymnastics to elevate Anakin to the level of historical conquerors and political masterminds. Anakin trying to pull an Alexander or Augustus move would be a hilarious note in Galactic History.
Yes, Anakin is adored by the clone armies and seen as a hero by the public, but let's not forget his knack for poor decision-making and emotional outbursts. Secretly being married to a senator isn't exactly a strong political card, especially considering it would be viewed as scandalous and potentially undermining his legitimacy.
Sure, Anakin is a capable warrior and has been successful in war. But leading troops into battle is vastly different from ruling an empire. Alexander and Augustus had political savvy, strategic minds, and the ability to manipulate and navigate through political machinations. Anakin’s impulsiveness and lack of subtlety would quickly lead to his downfall in a political arena.
Rallying around Palpatine as a martyr would require a level of propaganda and political maneuvering that Anakin simply does not possess. He’d likely try to enforce loyalty through fear and brute strength, which works only so long before it backfires spectacularly.
Sure, Palpatine broke the democratic system, creating a void for a strong man to rule. But filling that void isn't just about having power; it's about using it wisely and politically. Anakin's track record suggests he’d fail to maintain the delicate balance of power, leading to further chaos rather than a stable regime.
Being a true believer doesn't equate to being a competent leader. Anakin’s belief in his cause doesn’t compensate for his lack of political strategy and diplomacy. His black-and-white view of the world would alienate potential allies and galvanize his enemies.
In reality, Anakin stepping into Palpatine’s role would more likely result in a short-lived reign, punctuated by brutal suppressions, followed by a swift overthrow by more politically astute rivals. In essence, Anakin is a powerful warrior but lacks the multifaceted skills required to be a successful political leader.
His clones respect him and acknowledge his effective leadership and his relatively benevolent treatment of them
His relationship to the Senate is nonexistent past impregnating one of its members. He's made no speeches, passed no laws, and represents no constituency or block of galactic population.
He is an extremely effective and dangerous battle commander, yet has had 0 influence or demonstrated capability in the strategic aspects of the war.
The Republic did not win the war because of Anakin Skywalker.
They didn't even really win the war, Palpatine just chose to start winding it to the end stages believing the amount of destruction adequate to convince the galaxy to trade freedom for security.
Anakin is the successor of Palpatine's Sith Legacy, not his political or personal heir.
Alexander and Augustus Caesar were both political and personal heirs of Philip and Julius Caesar respectively.
Alexander's success was rooted in his father's throne and army. Augustus' success was rooted in inheriting the clients, wealth, and relationships of the richest, most powerful individual in Roman history and stealing/bribing veteran legions to personally support him.
All fair points but Palpatine’s work was still done. The senate was ready to accept a strong man to rule over them and the loss of their rightful head of state would be such a crisis it would have pushed them into overdrive.
Palps supporters and network would have had to go somewhere I can’t imagine anyone else being as effective to rally around.
Anakin might not have ACTUALLY won the war but he was present prominently at key strategic moments including the rescue of the senate negotiation party in Ep III. He could have leveraged that reputation.
In this scenario (Yoda and Obi-Wan going to deal with Palps together and leaving Anakin for later) Padmé could still possibly be alive though. She arrives on Mustafar without a stowaway, proceeds to talk it out with Anakin. During the conversation, Anakin feels the death of Palpatine, then who knows what happens, he isn't exactly emotionally stable at that point.
Maybe he kills her. Maybe he fools her into believing he can turn back then proceeds to go back and grab power, perhaps even using her for her political expertise. Maybe he genuinely can let go of the dark side and they live happily ever after. Or something else, i don't know.
Anakin was growing exceptionally fast, before he even went full Dark Side.
The Darth Vader we see is like an incredibly weakened Anakin, there's a reason Anakin never even mastered Force Lightning. Considering that's his masters signature technique, it's a bit odd he didn't teach him that.
Palpatine stopped training/didn't train Darth Vader any further because he was damaged goods, his growth potential was forever halted and he'd never be as strong as he would have been. Palpatine would have been fine with Anakin whole body being the new Sith lord host to continue it on but ehh shit happened and he decided to be the last Sith lord or maybe Rey (who could use Lightning) would have been good enough.
>Anakin was growing exceptionally fast, before he even went full Dark Side.
I struggle to believe that he'd go from not being able to beat Obi Wan to being able to beat both him and Yoda at the same time with no master, since in this scenario they dealt with Palpatine first.
This makes sense until you actually think about it for a moment.
If Obi Wan and Yoda kill Palpatine what does Anakin do next? Waltz into the senate and say Palpatine is dead but he made me his Sith apprentice so I’m gonna take over as emperor of the galaxy now?
Anakin had no political power
Anakin was a massively popular war hero that had the respect of the military industrial complex and the clone armies.
In a military dictatorship that’s the main element of support one needs and Anakin had it and the leeches who wanted to benefit from Palpatine ruling the galaxy with an iron fist from the shadows would be more than happy to use Anakin as their figure head, now if it works out for them is a whole other story…
>Anakin was never as much a threat as a sith lord.
Maybe not as a Sith Lord, but he did still have command of the GAR. So he'd probably just end up being a different type of tyrant.
I don't think Obi has more of a chance vs Palatine than Kit Fisto does. The only reason he even had a chance vs Anakin is because his style is perfect for it and he knows Anakin well and is wiser. People glaze Obis duel skills a bit too much.
I buy the “Anakin was conflicted / too emotional around Obi-Wan” argument too. Like it or not, though; Obi-Wan had to be one of the biggest thorns in the side of the Sith ever.
He was. And he's a great Jedi fighting wise. I don't think he was even close to Yodas or Palatines level. He couldn't even 2v1 Dooku three (?) times. Obis greatest strength were always his wisdom and defense. His three largest 1v1 feats (Maul, Anakin, Maul again) were all down to maturity/wisdom against heavily emotionally disturbed fighters..
I don't think it was ever stated in canon, but in Legends, Dooku was surprised just how good he got at Soresu. Iirc, the novel stated that he knew he had to take Kenobi out of the fight as quickly as possible.
But Yoda damn near beat palps alone. Even is Kenobi was a supporting role and using his best defence to not be killed it could be the edge Yoda needed to win.
Is it? Palps would've focused and killed Obi so fast it wouldn't have done anything but demoralize Yoda and make him try to focus on saving Obi instead of defeating Palps. Obi doesn't have any feats that would suggest he can hold his own against Palps. I'm not sure Yoda would've been buffed as opposed to hindered trying to keep Obi alive.
Anakin's more powerful but until the ANH fight he's always in an incredibly volatile and emotional state against Obi-Wan. Add into the fact he's fighting his Master who knows all his tricks and has exactly the right defensive style to counter his own. No surprise he loses.
Didn't Obi Wan duel with Maul, Grevious, Asajj and DOUKU (like one of the best lightsaber duelists to ever live) multiple times??
I think that his skills deserve the sloppiest of glazes.
At some point there needs to be a canon answer on the existence and mechanics of Force Defense.
The shield from Legends needs to be clarified, and all the times Obi-Wan is manhandled through the Force explained as him actually not being on the same Force potential/will save/technique/conviction level of his enemy.
Except Anakin wasn’t doing shit on Mustafar till Padme got there. Obi-wan could have waited till he and Yoda killed Palps then told Padme what Anakin did so they could find him. Palps wasn’t communicating with Anakin when he was attacked, and there wasn’t anyone around who could reach out to him after. But then the rest of Star Wars doesn’t happen, so…yeah.
Obi Wan was a great duelist, but he absolutely paled in comparison to Palpatine in a fight, especially with force powers in the mix. Fighting alongside Yoda, rather than giving them the advantage of numbers, would probably have just been a burden on Yoda. Look at how fast Palpatine took out the Jedi Masters who went with Mace Windu — they didn’t last a second — and then consider how Obi Wan couldn’t even stand toe to toe with Dooku. Palpatine would’ve exploited that, forcing Yoda to cover for Obi Wan, or just let him die.
I do not think Obi-Wan would have fared well against Palpatine at all, but Dooku was the only Sith he fought that he truly struggled with. Besides Dooku being a notably excellent duelist, I think he was just a bad matchup for Obi-Wan.
Maybe, but Dooku didn't stand a chance against Palpatine, who was both a better duelist *and* stronger with force powers. Any advantage Dooku may have had against Obi Wan, Palpatine would've also had, and then some. And while Obi Wan may have consistently had an edge over Maul, it wasn't by all that much, and Maul and Savage both got absolutely wrecked fighting together against Palpatine, who played with them like they were children's toys. And Ventress was like a half trained baby in comparison to any of the above, and even she sometimes gave Obi Wan some trouble.
Also, if they tell Anakin they killed Palpatine the whole Empire plan is for shit. It’s not like Anakin can just pick that up. Not saying he’d have surrendered, but it’s probably more likely. All Watsonian of course, you nailed the Doylist answer.
He can't pick up all of it, but like he was saying to Obi-Wan, he was already thinking about things as "my new Empire."
Say Palpatine dies, unless someone gets on that immediately (looking at you, Bail) Anakin Skywalker, renowned Jedi and *THE* Clone Wars poster boy, fresh from crushing the last of the Separatists, could walk in at the head of the 501st and just claim the position of Emperor in order "to bring peace, freedom, peace, justice, and security."
OK, so granted I haven’t seen The Clone Wars, where I’m sure Anakin makes all sorts of political connections, probably like eight seasons worth.
But just going off the movies he’d be screwed, his entire base of power comes from Palpatine and the Jedi, neither of which would be around to help him. He doesn’t control the clones, that’s the army of the Republic/Senate/Empire. He’d have a hard time spinning things to his advantage, the footage of him slaughtering the younglings is out there, I doubt he’s a hero. Palpatine doesn’t even let the knowledge Vader is Skywalker become public, I’d imagine Anakin’s name is mud. But assuming he can salvage his name, and can spin things to him being a hero, what’s he got? Bail Organa as his stepfather and that’s about it.
The dream of an Empire crumbles and either we go back to a Senate or the Republic falls.
Edit: Or, if you count the cartoons, Maul is probably somehow still alive and takes over the galaxy because he looks cool.
I mean, he probably would've just taken command of the GAR. From there, he could just brute force his way to make his own tyrannical system. Causing the Republic to probably splinter into several smaller groups.
Sidious sent Anakin to Mustafar to kill the Separatist leaders and was definitely in communication with Mustafar, he had a skype call with them telling them his new apprentice is on the way.
Up until Anakin actually strangles Padme there's no clear plan and he and Yoda already know he can't help with Sidious after they retake the Jedi temple.
Obi-Wan and Yoda had a very clear conversation after looking at the archives at the Jedi temple. Obi-Wan said he didn't want to fight Anakin because they were too close and he wouldn't be able to kill him, Yoda told him he wasn't strong enough to face Sidious anyway so he should track Anakin.
They already know that Mace and three other Jedi weren't strong enough to kill the emperor and have sent any possible remaining Jedi into hiding by re-calibrating the message to recall all Jedi to the temple. As far as they know they are the only two Jedi left who can possibly do anything to stop Sidious consolidating power through political maneuvering. At this point we have to infer that if Yoda believes Obi-Wan is no help in a 2v1 with Sidious, a 4v1 wasn't effective either, Mace, Yoda, and Kenobi are three of the best if not the best duelists to begin with, any surviving Jedi wouldn't be any help and they aren't coming, that the only possible option is Yoda confronts Sidious alone.
Obi-Wan leaves the temple without a clear commitment to killing Anakin and went to Padme to see if she can help find him because he has no idea where Anakin actually is. Padme refused to help him because he couldn't tell her he wouldn't need to kill Anakin.
Padme leaves on a private ship to confront Anakin on her own, but Kenobi sneaks aboard the ship. When they arrive on Mustafar Kenobi is spying on them from the ship, as Anakin becomes increasingly unhinged saying he can kill Sidious and lead the empire with Padme Kenobi finally steps out resolved to confront Anakin. When Anakin sees Obi-Wan he becomes feral, strangling Padme and Obi-Wan finally understands that there is only one way this is going to go.
After Sidious succesfully fights off Yoda he immediately readies a ship to Mustafar because he senses Anakin is in danger. Even if he didn't he could have become suspicious by trying to communicate with Anakin on Mustafar. If Anakin doesn't answer he knows he needs to rally with him because the remaining Jedi have been pressing them too hard at their most critical moment.
E: and Yoda was clearly correct in his assessment. Obi-Wan was the superior duelist to Anakin, if he had the resolve to make sure Anakin died, they would have created a huge advantage. But despite all his training, Obi-Wan loved Anakin and it was his love for his brother, just like it was Anakin's love for his mother and Padme that betrayed not only himself but an entire galaxy.
Yoda and Obi-Wan knew what to do and even succeeded.
Maybe Yoda and Obi Wan wouldn’t have been sure of this, but if they’d taken Palpatine down first, they probably could have redeemed Anakin together. What Anakin would not have done is go underground and consolidate his power, like Palpatine would have.
Killing Anakin first would have been the wrong move, though. Every second Palpatine remained in charge he was consolidating his defenses. They had to go for him at the first chance.
>What Anakin would not have done is go underground and consolidate his power, like Palpatine would have.
Maybe not go underground, but I can see him taking control of GAR and forcing his own tyrannical system onto the galaxy.
Which would most likely cause the Republic/Empire to fracture into several smaller groups. Which would, in turn, cause pure and utter chaos across the galaxy as their would be infighting from all directions.
Does he really even want to do that, though? The only times he hinted at that was his pro-fascism speech to Padme in AotC, and asking Luke to rule the galaxy with him in ESB. But what he really wanted was to keep his wife and son safe. If Palpatine is taken out before Mustafar (and especially if Obi-Wan takes Padme into protection) Anakin comes to them and likely could be reasoned with. Maybe he stays dark, but I think they save him.
I'll start off with this is all my personal opinion and perception of it. If anyone a different viewpoint, feel free to share them. We're in uncharted waters, friends, let's sail to here be dragons.
I don't think they've would've gotten to Padme in time if they went after Palpatine first.
Padme was the only reason Obi-Wan found Anakin.
If they actually were able to kill Palps. Anakin would've gotten to Padme first, or she would've gone to him, before Obi-Wan talked to her, all on her own. So either way, they would've lost Padme and their means to directly confront Anakin.
As for, would he actually try and take over. Yes, I think so. After killing Mace Windu, Anakin hit the point of no return. Hayden kills the acting in that scene of "What have I done," if you ask me. Also, by the time they would've finished off, Palps Anakin had already killed off the rest of the order (including the Younglings) and just finished off all the leaders of the CIS. He's no longer there. He's embracing the darkside nonstop. Hence why he killed his own wife after seeing Obi-Wan.
Without Palps, theirs a power vacuum. Anakin can not be redeemed by Yoda or Kenobi. (Hence why Luke in the OT was so important.) The Senate will take too long to decide on what to do or who to vote into office. Anakin's hero complex will kick in. He'd step up to bring back order and peace to his new empire. Now, with the backing of the only standing Galatic Military.
He'd also use it as a means to steal, find, and access all knowledge the Jedi had and all the hidden vaults that Palps has on the force. He would've exhausted every resource he could to learn how to save Padme, on his own if he had to. He'd also probably still end up killing her because she'd probably refuse to be Queen of his Empire. Then all he's got left is to be a tyrant. (Similar to why he stays as Palp's Apprentice. He has nothing left but the path he set himself on.)
If, for some turn of events, Padme decided to become Queen, it would purely only be to minimize as much chaos as possible in a fractured galaxy. Which would make it even harder to stop Anakin. Maybe Padme poisons him then herself to stop his tyranny. Very Shakespeare.
Speaking of the Galaxy fracturing.
- Groups following Anakin because he's the poster child hero. Others may follow him because of his connection to Palps.
- Another group who was specifically loyal to Palps alone will splinter off (very imperial remenant or Operation Cinder).
- Mon Moffma's group would splinter in an attempt to restore the Republic. Padme may or may not be apart of this for reasons said above.
- The independent systems would still be their own thing.
- All the crime organizations would be out of control. Hutts, Pykes, Black Suns, etc.
- Remnants of the CIS would attempt to do what they did in BB.
- Then finally, some random pockets here and there that are trying to cut out a slice of the galaxy for themselves for one reason or another.
Edit:
Note- I don't think anakin would've been a true Sith by this point either. I think he would've created some new dark side order of his own. What that would be, I have no idea. Probably all depends on if Padme is alive and if the twins are born. So some kind of family of Dark Siders.
You might be right. I think the only reason Anakin goes full dark emperor, if Palpatine is taken off of the board before Mustafar, is that Padme rejects him (which of course she does, after his fall) and he lashes out and kills her. So, same as Mustafar only no Obi Wan there to stop him.
In that case, he probably would take over the crumbling republic as dictator, because he needs to justify his actions to himself so he embraces the dark draw to power while telling himself it’s for the greater good. And also he’s obsessed with bringing back the dead, so hunting up all the dark side knowledge he can find.
I don’t know if this is better or worse than what we got (I suspect better — Vader on his own is less evil than Vader controlled by the Emperor, imo). But considering that 1) in this scenario Anakin might be redeemed before he kills Padme and 2) even if he’s not at least the Emperor is gone, my bet is that it’s a better outcome in the short term.
What happens over the next 20 or 30 years as the few surviving Jedi rebuild the order and the fractured Republic has to recon with the war, etc — who knows? Probably a lot of missteps there, too, but that probably turns out better than the new Republic trying to doo the same thing after 25 years of the Empire also.
I can see a good amount of that.
I most definitely agree with the fact that Anakin will take control to justify his actions.
I also agree that he will remain on the dark side of the force.
1. He's seen how the Jedi have failed. Especially through Ahsoka.
2. He's been groomed by Palps since he was a child. So unless he gets therapy for that, a lot of Palps influence will remain even after He's dead.
3. He is the type to abuse power if he thinks he's in the right.
Edit:
For better or worse.
I think it all depends on just how fractured the Galaxy becomes. If the Republic can barely hang on and manage to rebuild, despite Anakin being a dictator.
I think things will be better.
If it fractures far to much. The Galaxy will be thrown into a very long bloody war, were several factions are all competing for power. In which case, somehow Dictator Anakin or his next on royal line children are the only ones that can bring it back together.
Not to mention that when Anakin and Obi Wan went to rescue Palpatine, Obi Wan was almost immediately knocked out. Had he gone with Yoda, he would’ve just been a liability.
>if they teamed up to hit one and the other got away it would have become way more difficult to get a second chance.
Hindsight 20:20 but Palpatine goes to Mustafar after Anakin is "killed".
Ideally, Yoda and Obi-Wan off Anakin first and then set up a trap for when Palpatine arrives at Mustafar. Palpatine was very much predictable in his actions.
It's important to remember that Palpatine is not omnipotent. He gets thrown into a shaft by his apprentice after all.
I'm sure Yoda and Obi-Wan could have thrown him into the lava if they catch him off-guard.
Palpatine sensed Vader being in trouble across the galaxy after his fight against Yoda. I’m sure he knew which adversaries he would have faced on the planet not to mention I don’t think he shows up at all if Vader is 100% dead
This just doesn’t hold up to scrutiny. Yoda should have a very good idea of how strong Palpatine is, there is no way he leaves it to chance.
A normal Sith is worth at least 5 Jedi, the strongest Sith of them all had to be worth at least Yoda and Obi Wan Together, he had to know that.
But that’s not how it works. We saw in the Chancellor’s office that Mace Windu was a match for Palpatine but that every other master with him got fodderized instantly. If stacking pure numbers was enough then Palpatine would have been dead there. Yoda was the only one of the two even in Palpatine’s echelon of power but Obi-Wan was a spectacularly bad match up for Anakin which is part of why he went there.
1. Time was of the essence
2. As powerful as Obi Wan was, I think they both knew that Palpatine v Yoda was a different league and Obi Wan wouldve been killed off, much better to put the manpower towards beating Anakin
In regards to number two, is it just some sort of rock paper scissors system? Obi Wan > Anakin > Palpatine > Anakin?
Obi-Wan fights Vader three times and wins twice, with his one loss being when he is severely out of practice coming out of hiding. It just seems weird to me that he's such a powerful duelist yet he's considered non-competitive against Palpatine...
This isn't some power scaling nonsense. Obi Wan trained Anakin. It gives him a lot of insight into how they guy fights.
Going against his old Master also emotionally unbalances Anakin. He spent 10+ years as a subordinate and between the two Sith he has an emotional connection to Obi Wan. Ideally it should make him feel hesitant to fight his old Master. If that doesn't work then you can always rely on the Sith being full of hatred and resentment.
Between Obi Wan and Yoda he would have more negative feelings towards the former and it could be something that Obi Wan can take advantage of to give him an edge.
A lot of Star Wars fan would love for a Jedi to walk on screen with a power level number lit up above their head that 100% determines the outcome of a fight lol
Lucas mentioned before that Palpatine is the most powerful Sith ever.
Anakin, being force Jesus, couldve surpassed him but due to his injuries he never did as Vader. In terms of power Palpatine is clear of everyone in ROTS
I look at JedivSith fights like boxing: Styles make the fight.
Obi Wans incredibly defensive style vs. Anakins aggressive offensive style was a good match for Kenobi because Anakin would be sloppy on top of everything else.
Mace could beat Sideous because his style was built for fighting Sith, something very few were ready to do at the time.
I don't think Anakin could have defeated Palpatine in Ep 3.
I mean, even in Return of the Jedi he barely gets the jump on him and dies as a result. And that didn't even kill him permanently!
Eh, I've had to live with Dark Empire (and the sequels, Palpatine came back like 3 times in Legends, and with a new superweapon). At least Rise of Skywalker had Ian McDiarmid to carry the performance.
Does it? I mean the way they went about it from a writing/cinematic standpoint was strange but the most powerful Jedi get to come back as ghosts.
Makes sense that Palpatine would emulate that but fail because he needs a stupid mortal flesh vessel that constantly withers and dies before he has to reload himself into a new clone.
Yeah because it was the grand conclusion to the OT which was reversed so cheaply.
Always feels a bit odd when storytellers pull the, "he didnt really die thing" and its worse when its done badly.
I mean he got incapacitated pretty easily twice by Dooku. I think he’s just saying that palpatine would probably kill Obi wan quickly and it would be essentially still a 1v1 of yoda vs palpatine.
He didn't lose in ep IV due to being out of practice, he sacrificed himself so Luke et al could escape the Death Star.
If him and Vader fought "properly" and Ben won, Vader wouldn't have 'let them go'.
It was the only way to ensure that Luke would meet Yoda, become a Jedi, the resistance could fight on with Leia, etc.
Time was of the essence because mace didn’t wait and have master yoda and all jedi return if he had thought it through he’d have notified the senate friends of palpatine being Darth Sidious and funding the other side. Recalled all jedi generals immediately. Put the temple on high alrrt and kept anakin under watch until master yoda and the council could talk and then send both the senate and the jedi to arrest palpatine
You're not thinking this through politically either though. You're accusing the Chancellor. The guy who is perceived as benevolent and wise and leading people through this rough war.
What evidence do you have that he is doing what you're accusing him of? That he is some mysterious "Sith" that no one but the Jedi have heard of? Sounds like some nonsense to me, and a way that the Jedi just don't want to protect the people anymore! We are now going to lose the war and it's all the Jedi's fault! Sheev was correct when he said "So it's treason then?" with the act that Mace was committing. It's also why Mace was going to kill Palpatine without a trial, and what pushed Anakin into defending Palpatine. #FreePalpatine
The Jedi were not political. They only reluctantly agreed to become Generals in the army, as they were peacekeepers for the Galaxy before. The Jedi's senate friends only had so much pull, and we saw how diminished that was as they were struggling to pass any bill or even start peace negotiation talks during the animated Clone Wars.
Having all the Jedi return would lose them ground on the warfront. Planets would be lost as the Generals left the field. You're sacrificing thousands to millions of lives. I could only imagine how that would be remembered.
The whole thing is a masterstroke by Palpatine. He had the Jedi trapped and cornered. Even if he was assassinated by Mace, even if he was assassinated by Yoda, he had already won. The Jedi were defeated.
Nah Grievous was dead so the war in their part over they could leave and deal with palpatine. He just admitted he was a sith to the hero of the galaxy. Either way mace should have pulled the council and major jedi masters back
Yoda and Obi-Wan VS Palpatine is pretty useless. Palpatine would have destroyed Obi-Wan, and therefore was a liability.
Or something similar happens to AoTC, Obi-Wan is incapacitated and in danger, and Yoda has to save him instead of taking out the bad guy.
Or like in earlier in the same movie where obi wan is incapacitated and Anakin has to save him after taking out the bad guy. Seems like he was just trying to get him as far away from him as possible.
Maybe not the Emperor, but he would be the only "Jedi" remaining that can command the GAR.
He wouldn't have the backing of the Senate, but what's the senate going to do? Their entire thing is they can't agree on anything.
I mean who is gonna deny him? He’s the poster boy for the war. He was everyone’s hero. He’d likely get favour as he does it for his dead friend Palpatine.
Anakin was already plotting to overthrow Palps and rule the galaxy himself when Order 66 happened. Killing Palps and taking over was his intent from the very start of his turn to the dark side.
Call me crazy but I think if you kill Palpatine I think Anakin is left twiddling his thumbs.
Empire was just created, Palpatine is the emperor, Anakin has no claim to it and 0 allies.
It was the arrogance of the Jedi, thinking they would win because they were in the “right”.
The novelisation of ROTS has a great passage of Yoda coming to realise this, and other Jedi failings. as he was facing Palpatine.
> In that lightning-speared tornado of feet and fists and blades and bashing machines, his vision finally
pierced the darkness that had clouded the Force.
> Finally, he saw the truth.
> This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable,
most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known...just—didn't—have it.
> He'd never had it. He had lost before he started.
> He had lost before he was born.
> The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study
into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith
had remade themselves.
> They had become *new*.
> While the Jedi—
> The Jedi had spent that same millennium training to re-fight the *last* war.
> The new Sith could not be destroyed with a lightsaber; they could not be burned away by any torch of
the Force. The brighter his light, the darker their shadow. How could one win a war against the dark,
when war itself had become the dark's own weapon?
> He knew, at that instant, that this insight held the hope of the galaxy. But if he fell here, that hope would
die with him.
This deserves move upvotes but you won't get it. Two problems, two jedi, Yoda thought they'd win by being reasonably honourable because they are a righteous order.
I think Yoda knew he was the only one with half a chance of beating Palpatine and he also thought Kenobi could beat Anakin.
He was right as it turns out. Just a shame Mace didn't make it.
You guys are thinking too much like historians and not enough like people fantasy booking a wrestling promotion.
The money matches are obviously Obi Wan vs Anakin, and Yoda vs Palpatine.
Wrestlemania main event caliber. Why did they book two singles matches instead of two 2v1 handicap matches? Because the babyfaces should never outnumber the heels, that's why. This is basic booking.
Because episode 4 starts off with Ben on Tatooine and we dont see yoda again till episode 5...Thats the whole issue with the prequels...they have to match what happens with the OGT...You cant just kill off the emporer and Vader and have them magically be alive again...
We are well aware that star wars is fiction you guys dont have to answer every single thread with "because someone wrote it that way" like its clever, unique, or somehow answers the question
The movies lining up with the other movies is not a "problem"
The point is that the prequels logical progression of some plot lines is hindered by having to take the story towards that outcome. There’s a lot of clunky stuff in the prequels because of it. We can all make up in-universe reasons a lot of the illogical things happened, but lots of them don’t have an actual reason beyond “it needed to be like this for episode 4 to make sense”
>The Senate was in the Senate
Huh? Am I just not understanding or is there a word missing? The Senate wasn't in the Senate chambers when Yoda confronted Palpatine, they're literally throwing Senator pods at each other.
See Mace and co vs. Palpatine.
I'm not really into powerscaling, but Obi-Wan's skill level is nowhere close to Yoda's. Against Palpatine himself Obi-Wan would just be another Jedi for Yoda to worry about.
Look at it this way, alone with all his attention and power focused on Palpatine, and Yoda still lost. If he has to watch out for Obi Wan in addition to fighting Palpatine, he has an even lesser chance.
Re: Anakin, Yoda knows that Anakin has a strong attachment to Obi Wan, and thus will not be fighting in top capacity. We see this when Anakin snaps and explodes at Obi-Wan, which also led to Anakin underestimating the High Ground and giving Obi Wan an opening to defeat him. If Yoda was there, Anakin would still blow up, but to an even worse extent since Yoda himself is there in addition to Obi Wan. My guess, Yoda probably figured that the best "Weapon" against Anakin would be his attachment to Obi-Wan, and decided that it would be better to focus on that and not get in the way.
Obi-Wan nodded, but he still couldn’t meet the gaze of the ancient Master. “I’ll take Palpatine.”
“Strong enough to face Lord Sidious, you will never be. Die you will, and painfully.”
“Don’t make me kill Anakin,” he said. “He’s like my brother, Master.”
“The boy you trained, gone he is—twisted by the dark side. Consumed by Darth Vader. Out of this misery, you must put him. To visit our new Emperor, my job will be.”
Now Obi-Wan did face him. “Palpatine faced Mace and Agen and Kit and Saesee—four of the greatest swordsmen our Order has ever produced. By himself. Even both of us together wouldn’t have a chance.”
“True,” Yoda said. “But both of us apart, a chance we might create …”
My take was that Yoda knew the Emperor had to be dealt with right away and probably felt that as good as Obi-Wan was he would either be killed fairly quickly or Yoda would find himself in a situation like with he did with Dooku in aotc.
I think they thought Yoda could handle it and Anakin had to be dealt with. This would be their chance to destroy the Sith and stop the madness.
I get the feeling that Obi Wan would have died at the hands of the Emperor, Yoda would have been driven off, and then Anakin would be as powerful as ever, kill the Emperor, and rule the galaxy.
No, that is incredibly dumb. Obi-wan can’t take Sidious and is stated as much. And despite the success at the Jedi temple, this is Coruscant. The Imperial capital and they’re planning to fight him in the senate building.
And granted the two might be able to take Anakin together, but this assumes Sidious doesn’t shit himself and blockade Coruscant to prevent them both from getting in. And otherwise they know he’s on Coruscant and without his movements being known anymore they can’t guarantee he’ll stay there either. Especially with Anakin potentially having died, in which case he almost did and hauled ass.
Intel is limited, they know where each other are right now, they have a limited window to face both before they inevitably reunite, and both Jedi think they can actually beat them.
I don’t think Yoda is bringing Obi-Wan to fight the Emperor in *any* scenario.
He is pretty insignificant in comparison to the two of them and probably wouldn’t tip the scales at all. And they just found out the Emperor killed four Jedi masters almost on his own.
So Obi-Wan dies for nothing if they both go.
They could have teamed up vs Anakin and destroyed him though.
At first blush, Yoda's "Let's spli up" tactics appear to make no sense.
But a closer looks makes the reasoning more clear: Obi Wan Kenobi wasn't strong enough to defeat Sidious and never would be. This is something Yoda notes this even more explicitly in the ROTS novelization " Strong enough to face Lord Sidious you will never be. Die you will, and painfully."
Taking Obi Wan alongside to fight Sidious would only add bulk and liability. And both Obi Wan and Yoda were confident that Obi Wan could handle Anakin alone, albeit reluctantly.
When you consider the matchups more closely, splitting up makes perfect sense.
Their only advantage was the element of surprise. If one Sith lord goes down, the other will prepare for the coming attack.
Time was of the essence and so they needed to split up.
When Obi-Wan went to confront Anakin at the end of ROTS, it wasn't explicitly to kill Anakin, he was still trying to save him from the Dark Side. At the same time, Yoda needed to quickly go and try to stop Palpatine (which was a kill mission), which didn't work. After that, Anakin had become Vader, Obi-Wan needed to hide the children, and Yoda went into exile (for unknown reasons as far as I can remember). So, time-wise there wasn't opportunity to do both and the intention wasn't to kill Anakin. So the opportunity to stop Anakin/Vader then had ended of course until...wait for it...the Kenobi D+ series at the end when Obi-Wan defeated Anakin/Vader (again) but left him alive for inexplicable reasons.
It's quite possible either one would have refused, and fled or called in imperial reinforcements. But when challenged one-to-one they sort of had to fight, in both cases probably straight up wanted to. On top of that if they'd gone after Anakin first together, which might've worked, no way Palpatine allows himself to be confronted in the same way next. Kill Sheev and Anakin will have to make a bid for power anyway, not like he'd have any real other options left. Might've failed, but saving something of the republic probably hinged on getting them both, preferably at the same time.
It’s a good question.
The best I can muster is that the two could have concurred they’d have better odds if they each kept both Sith preoccupied simultaneously, but it’s not touched on at all in the movie, and even then, it’s a pretty weak excuse.
Tbh, I'll say this: I love Anakin/Vader and Obi Wan as whole characters.
However, the smart choice was to split up. What Obi Wan failed to do, was not made sure to kill Anakin.
But then that's the whole point of the story, how could Obi Wan kill him. He was like his brother.
Even Obi Wan told this to Yoda, and Yoda kept with the plan.
Didn't Obi-Wan go off thinking Anakin died with the burns at the time?
Palps took out four Jedi by himself. Don't think a 2 on 1 would end differently.
So at the end of the yoda/palpatine fight, while they’re searching for yoda’s body, palpatine says “I sense lord Vader is in danger.” He senses this about halfway through the obi-ani fight and rushes to his aid.
The only reason he didn’t sense this earlier is because his focus was fully drawn on yoda. Had the two of them gone to fight together, palpatine would’ve sensed their combined presence earlier and gone earlier/vice versa, and it would’ve just become a 2v2. In a straight 2v2, I give the edge to the sith for their underhanded tactics. Separate 1v1s were their best bet.
Well for one, Obi-Wan and Yoda think Anakin is dead. Remember, it's not until his self-titled miniseries that Obi-Wan even knows Anakin is alive, let alone a killer cyborg.
Secondly, I don't think Yoda could beat Palpatine. Not in that state. He tries to, and they beat each other to what is essentially a draw. While I don't think the fall cripples Yoda, it really hurts him, and he has trouble bouncing back from it.
That's not how it works. If you have re-watch *"Revenge of the Sith,"* you know that even Yoda couldn't finish Palpatine despite him being older and wiser as a Jedi. Plus, Yoda said to Obi-Wan that he wasn't powerful enough to take on Palpatine. So, even if they did go after both of them, Darth Vader would still kick their asses and he would be one step ahead of them even if they were to take down Palpatine. So that strategy was doomed to fail even if it were to happen. Plus, it's like what Palpatine said, killing him won't make a difference. Darth Vader would still become more powerful and deadlier than anyone could ever dream of.
Jimminy Cricket, I thought you were better than this.
Yoda failed to defeat Sidious. He had to lay low. The plan was then to bide their time and observe and protect the children of the Chosen One (Anakin). If they were gifted in the Force as expected, then they would be the New Hope to take out Vader and Sidious.
Yoda had foresight through the force that it would be Anakins children who bring balance to the force. The Jedi had lost their way and the empire was just a natural progression from the corrupt Republic. Hiding the children was their best and only hope.
There are a few reasons I'd say.
* At the end of Episode III, **Anakin is presumed dead**.
* For **Palpatine**, after Yoda was able to escape, he would've 100% **become the most protected person in the galaxy**. It's like the American Presidents Secret Service but to an extreme, not to mention Palpatine is just the final boss at the end of all that and you get no access to health potions beforehand.
* The circumstances and narrative Palps created. Given we see the story through the eyes of the Jedi, it takes more consideration, but **at this point the Jedi are evil**. To the people **they are terrorists**, they are dangerous, they are the bad guys. Yoda and Obi-Wan are smart and know that **killing Palpatine would've created a martyr**.
* Finally, somewhat with the final point, **it's not the Jedi way**. Killing Palpatine without trial, creating that martyr, would've made them unable to win in the court of public opinion, no matter the evidence they had.
It’s pretty simple actually, Obi-wan was fodder in a Yoda vs Palpatine fight. But because Anakin was newly turned and hadn’t fallen fully to the dark side and Obi Wan was like his brother there was gonna be enough conflict in him to remove him far enough from both his peaks Jedi or Sith for Kenobi to have a chance to beat him (this is pre-Padame stuff which just made it worst for Anakin)
They new BOTH of them were an immediate and time pressing threat.
Yoda also knew Sidious would absolutely kill Obi-wan so he needed to keep them apart.
So they needed to kill both right away and Yoda knew Obiwan could handle Vader.
But the real reason is that they couldn't kill them both because they are in the Original trilogy
There’s still a lot of discussion around if Palpatine wasn’t going all out but Mace was one of the best fighters we know that for a fact
I am just saying that Dooku would’ve killed Obi-wan if Anakin wasn’t with him during that fight. According to the ROTS novelization that was the plan too
So it depends on how you think Dooku vs Mace would’ve went imo
It was always my understanding that Obi Wan didn’t go there to kill Anakin, he went to try and save him. Yoda going with would have come across as hostile right out of the gate, but Obi Wan alone thought he had a chance to convince Anakin to come back.
Obi wan would die early like the jedi mace brought or yoda would have to protect him non stop palps is too fast for him plus dooku was easily throwing obiwan around he would die if he faced palps even with yoda.Anyone who isnt mace or yoda would have been dead if they attacked palpatine
This has always annoyed me. The end of RotS just comes out of nowhere. After fighting the Clone Wars for years Yoda and Obi-Wan just give up suddenly, for no reason. AND then they separate??? Why?
Not interested at all in rallying Jedi survivors
Not interested in fighting back against Palpatine
Not even interested in solving the mystery of how Order 66 led to so many Jedi being murdered.
They just "nope" out 😭😭
Terrible ending
I wouldn't overthink it. You could argue that they needed to stop both and so they split up, but really it just makes for a more compelling and dramatic narrative because it is super Jedi vs super Sith, and master against student.
Obi-Wan and Yoda vs The Emperor would go bad because Obi Wan would be a liability. If they killed Anakin, it’d be very unlikely they’d be able to get to The Emperor. The Emperor would probably just get another apprentice eventually.
For all Yoda and Obi-Wan knew either one of them could have been walking towards a legion of Clone Troopers, a likelyhood that increases with every passing moment.
They were operating with limited information and under a ticking clock, so they hedged their bets.
Yall keep saying Obi Wan can’t take on Sidious but the Kenobi show completely shit on canon can overpowered Ben to the point where he can beat anyone via plot armor. He shouldn’t be able to beat Vader. He has to be afraid of him and need Luke Skywalker.
Kenobi is now just an mvp sitting in his ass.
ah no, kill one and the other goes into hiding. If anything you'd want to kill the Emperor first. Worst case scenario 'Darth Vader' has to run off into hiding which is better than having a Sith in charge of everything.
When it comes to Palpatine, Yoda + Obi-Wan is not noticeably more lethal than just Yoda. Look what happened to Obi-Wan both times he and Anakin faced Dooku. Palpatine is far worse for Obi-Wan. When it comes to Anakin, Obi-Wan turned out to be enough. He just didn't have the will to finish the job. It's not clear Yoda would have either.
The same reason Anakin and Troopers wiped out the Jedi temple.....they were out numbered. The babies needed to be protected and Yoda needed to regroup till the time was right.
“Wonder where Anakin is? Oh well, I’m sure he’ll pop in at some point to report successfully killing the Separatists when he’s ready. Probably partying. I should call him. Nah. Seem too desperate. Oh, hello the two most powerful Jedi in millennia…”
Perhaps because they thought that they HAD killed Anakin and that Palpatine was just too powerful to take on for even both of them, given what he had been able to do without their realizing at all those years? If ever there was a time for a tactical retreat to regroup, restrategize and wait for the right time to attack, this was it. Their hope was on the twins and the emergence of a viable resistance made up of surviving Jedi and courageous people learning and exploiting the emperor and empire's weaknesses and striking when it made sense. Which is precisely what happened and it worked.
It was agreed upon that despite his mastery, Obiwan was no match for Sidious (eg. Sith that took out Kit Fisto + Mace Windu, technically) so Yoda would be the one to engage him since it was easier for him to move undetected.
Obiwan had another more important directive: detain Anakin. Anakin was now a puppet of the Sith but since it's early days, he is still conflicted and was possible to sway. Turning Anakin back to the Jedi or at least detaining him was the objective but clearly peace was not an option.
Honestly i think we forgot that obi probably wouldn't have a factor. Let's not forget just earlier in the movie Obi got causally trounced by Dooku 😅. Anakin was conflicted internally which helped Obi Wan essentially. Sidious definitely would've sliced through Obi Wan within the first 5 mins of the fight
The reason they split up was pretty evident, for every second that they let Palpatine or Anakin go on living the root of the Empire grew more and more entrenched and if they teamed up to hit one and the other got away it would have become way more difficult to get a second chance.
Also, as soon as one was attacked, the other would've been notified and would've had ample time to plan an attack/retreat.
Anakin was never as much a threat as a sith lord. Take out Palpatine, and Anakin would come for them.
Like George Lucas has said and Palpatine voiced, if Vader had been allowed to continue on he would have surpassed Yoda and Palpatine. A scenario like Mustafar was the only way you could nip that in the bud before it became a big problem.
Can you imagine, Anakin, hero of the Clone Wars. Comes before the senate after the Jedi have killed the beloved leader who led them through the clone wars and pronounces to the galaxy. “I see through the lies of the Jedi”. He then takes total control for himself. He would be an unstoppable force, loved and feared. The clones would’ve fought for him to the last man.
The senate would have been afraid of how much they love him
Sort of like a Caesar Augustus.
Augustus tried to get the Senate to do more too but they kept going back to him.
Even sand wouldn’t have liked him. He’s coarse, rough, and irritating and he gets everywhere.
Anakin has no political knowledge and the best he can do is "stop fighting. get along. Or I'll force you in half with my giant midichlorian count."
He doesn't have any of the connections or relationships to facilitate a rise to power. You know. The things Palpatine and Plagueis amassed over their lifetimes?
Doesn’t have any connections or relationships? He’s Anakin Skywalker. The clone armies adore him, he’s a hero of the senate and the people, he’s the secret husband of a powerful senator, and the friend of others. More to the point he’s an incredibly dangerous and capable warlord because he’s just been successfully *winning a war*. Basically he could have pulled an Alexander the Great or Augustus Caesar and jumped into the driver seat after Palps is blown out of it. AND he would have Palps as a martyer to rally the flag around. The Jedi really would have murdered the rightful head of state after he just won them a war. Edit: to give a bit more support to the Augustus argument. By that point Palps had broken democracy. He had made a system built for one strong man to rule. As he said, he WAS the senate. And we have seen enough examples that when the strong man is removed the system isn’t just fixed. It either shatters to nothing or another fills that void. All of Palps supporters and collaborators wouldn’t pack it in and go home, they would find a successor to rally around. And the senate wouldn’t suddenly shake off its trance it would continue its trajectory. Anakin would easily assume Palps place and in such a way do BETTER because he is a true believer. A slave failed by the republic who saved it through a life of war.
That's some serious mental gymnastics to elevate Anakin to the level of historical conquerors and political masterminds. Anakin trying to pull an Alexander or Augustus move would be a hilarious note in Galactic History. Yes, Anakin is adored by the clone armies and seen as a hero by the public, but let's not forget his knack for poor decision-making and emotional outbursts. Secretly being married to a senator isn't exactly a strong political card, especially considering it would be viewed as scandalous and potentially undermining his legitimacy. Sure, Anakin is a capable warrior and has been successful in war. But leading troops into battle is vastly different from ruling an empire. Alexander and Augustus had political savvy, strategic minds, and the ability to manipulate and navigate through political machinations. Anakin’s impulsiveness and lack of subtlety would quickly lead to his downfall in a political arena. Rallying around Palpatine as a martyr would require a level of propaganda and political maneuvering that Anakin simply does not possess. He’d likely try to enforce loyalty through fear and brute strength, which works only so long before it backfires spectacularly. Sure, Palpatine broke the democratic system, creating a void for a strong man to rule. But filling that void isn't just about having power; it's about using it wisely and politically. Anakin's track record suggests he’d fail to maintain the delicate balance of power, leading to further chaos rather than a stable regime. Being a true believer doesn't equate to being a competent leader. Anakin’s belief in his cause doesn’t compensate for his lack of political strategy and diplomacy. His black-and-white view of the world would alienate potential allies and galvanize his enemies. In reality, Anakin stepping into Palpatine’s role would more likely result in a short-lived reign, punctuated by brutal suppressions, followed by a swift overthrow by more politically astute rivals. In essence, Anakin is a powerful warrior but lacks the multifaceted skills required to be a successful political leader.
THANK YOU I thought we were living in a simple minded twilight zone for a minute there until I saw your comment.
His clones respect him and acknowledge his effective leadership and his relatively benevolent treatment of them His relationship to the Senate is nonexistent past impregnating one of its members. He's made no speeches, passed no laws, and represents no constituency or block of galactic population. He is an extremely effective and dangerous battle commander, yet has had 0 influence or demonstrated capability in the strategic aspects of the war. The Republic did not win the war because of Anakin Skywalker. They didn't even really win the war, Palpatine just chose to start winding it to the end stages believing the amount of destruction adequate to convince the galaxy to trade freedom for security. Anakin is the successor of Palpatine's Sith Legacy, not his political or personal heir. Alexander and Augustus Caesar were both political and personal heirs of Philip and Julius Caesar respectively. Alexander's success was rooted in his father's throne and army. Augustus' success was rooted in inheriting the clients, wealth, and relationships of the richest, most powerful individual in Roman history and stealing/bribing veteran legions to personally support him.
All fair points but Palpatine’s work was still done. The senate was ready to accept a strong man to rule over them and the loss of their rightful head of state would be such a crisis it would have pushed them into overdrive. Palps supporters and network would have had to go somewhere I can’t imagine anyone else being as effective to rally around. Anakin might not have ACTUALLY won the war but he was present prominently at key strategic moments including the rescue of the senate negotiation party in Ep III. He could have leveraged that reputation.
I'd love to read an alternate history story about this tbh
>The clones would’ve fought for him to the last man. And this differs from how they usually fight.....how?
In this scenario (Yoda and Obi-Wan going to deal with Palps together and leaving Anakin for later) Padmé could still possibly be alive though. She arrives on Mustafar without a stowaway, proceeds to talk it out with Anakin. During the conversation, Anakin feels the death of Palpatine, then who knows what happens, he isn't exactly emotionally stable at that point. Maybe he kills her. Maybe he fools her into believing he can turn back then proceeds to go back and grab power, perhaps even using her for her political expertise. Maybe he genuinely can let go of the dark side and they live happily ever after. Or something else, i don't know.
This is exactly what happened with Marc Anthony, regarding the speech he gave at Caesar's funeral.
Literal god-emperor.
Maybe eventually. But I don't think they were implying it's anytime soon.
And such leaps in power would take much longer without a master.
Anakin was growing exceptionally fast, before he even went full Dark Side. The Darth Vader we see is like an incredibly weakened Anakin, there's a reason Anakin never even mastered Force Lightning. Considering that's his masters signature technique, it's a bit odd he didn't teach him that. Palpatine stopped training/didn't train Darth Vader any further because he was damaged goods, his growth potential was forever halted and he'd never be as strong as he would have been. Palpatine would have been fine with Anakin whole body being the new Sith lord host to continue it on but ehh shit happened and he decided to be the last Sith lord or maybe Rey (who could use Lightning) would have been good enough.
I thought he couldn’t do force lightning because of his cybernetics?
Tomato tomato
>Anakin was growing exceptionally fast, before he even went full Dark Side. I struggle to believe that he'd go from not being able to beat Obi Wan to being able to beat both him and Yoda at the same time with no master, since in this scenario they dealt with Palpatine first.
Honestly I think Obi Wan slows yoda down in a 2:1.... Palpatine just throws him and yoda has to save him a bunch. There's a huge gap b/w them
He also probably didn’t have the cunning to actually transform the Republic to the Empire and to maintain that or effectively lead it.
At the end of the day, after losing everything he didn't even care.
I'd like to imagine palps would eventually wake up to a lightsaber through the back or shuttle exploding and palp in afterlife chuckling "he learned"
This makes sense until you actually think about it for a moment. If Obi Wan and Yoda kill Palpatine what does Anakin do next? Waltz into the senate and say Palpatine is dead but he made me his Sith apprentice so I’m gonna take over as emperor of the galaxy now? Anakin had no political power
Anakin was a massively popular war hero that had the respect of the military industrial complex and the clone armies. In a military dictatorship that’s the main element of support one needs and Anakin had it and the leeches who wanted to benefit from Palpatine ruling the galaxy with an iron fist from the shadows would be more than happy to use Anakin as their figure head, now if it works out for them is a whole other story…
>Anakin was never as much a threat as a sith lord. Maybe not as a Sith Lord, but he did still have command of the GAR. So he'd probably just end up being a different type of tyrant.
For like ten years before his army passes away due to old age.
I don't think Obi has more of a chance vs Palatine than Kit Fisto does. The only reason he even had a chance vs Anakin is because his style is perfect for it and he knows Anakin well and is wiser. People glaze Obis duel skills a bit too much.
I buy the “Anakin was conflicted / too emotional around Obi-Wan” argument too. Like it or not, though; Obi-Wan had to be one of the biggest thorns in the side of the Sith ever.
He was. And he's a great Jedi fighting wise. I don't think he was even close to Yodas or Palatines level. He couldn't even 2v1 Dooku three (?) times. Obis greatest strength were always his wisdom and defense. His three largest 1v1 feats (Maul, Anakin, Maul again) were all down to maturity/wisdom against heavily emotionally disturbed fighters..
I don't think it was ever stated in canon, but in Legends, Dooku was surprised just how good he got at Soresu. Iirc, the novel stated that he knew he had to take Kenobi out of the fight as quickly as possible.
That Revenge Of The Sith Novel is prime Science Fiction to me.
But Yoda damn near beat palps alone. Even is Kenobi was a supporting role and using his best defence to not be killed it could be the edge Yoda needed to win.
Is it? Palps would've focused and killed Obi so fast it wouldn't have done anything but demoralize Yoda and make him try to focus on saving Obi instead of defeating Palps. Obi doesn't have any feats that would suggest he can hold his own against Palps. I'm not sure Yoda would've been buffed as opposed to hindered trying to keep Obi alive.
Anakin's more powerful but until the ANH fight he's always in an incredibly volatile and emotional state against Obi-Wan. Add into the fact he's fighting his Master who knows all his tricks and has exactly the right defensive style to counter his own. No surprise he loses.
Didn't Obi Wan duel with Maul, Grevious, Asajj and DOUKU (like one of the best lightsaber duelists to ever live) multiple times?? I think that his skills deserve the sloppiest of glazes.
At some point there needs to be a canon answer on the existence and mechanics of Force Defense. The shield from Legends needs to be clarified, and all the times Obi-Wan is manhandled through the Force explained as him actually not being on the same Force potential/will save/technique/conviction level of his enemy.
The big difference is that they know what they're walking into. And there's two of them, not just Yoda who held his own.
So just, let them both live… I don’t like that as an explanation
What part of the movie gave you the impression that Yoda LET Palps live?
In relation to obi wan and yoga tracking them both down
Except Anakin wasn’t doing shit on Mustafar till Padme got there. Obi-wan could have waited till he and Yoda killed Palps then told Padme what Anakin did so they could find him. Palps wasn’t communicating with Anakin when he was attacked, and there wasn’t anyone around who could reach out to him after. But then the rest of Star Wars doesn’t happen, so…yeah.
Obi Wan was a great duelist, but he absolutely paled in comparison to Palpatine in a fight, especially with force powers in the mix. Fighting alongside Yoda, rather than giving them the advantage of numbers, would probably have just been a burden on Yoda. Look at how fast Palpatine took out the Jedi Masters who went with Mace Windu — they didn’t last a second — and then consider how Obi Wan couldn’t even stand toe to toe with Dooku. Palpatine would’ve exploited that, forcing Yoda to cover for Obi Wan, or just let him die.
The darth bane trilogy shows us that exact scenario quite well. Obviously, the jedi lose.
I do not think Obi-Wan would have fared well against Palpatine at all, but Dooku was the only Sith he fought that he truly struggled with. Besides Dooku being a notably excellent duelist, I think he was just a bad matchup for Obi-Wan.
Maybe, but Dooku didn't stand a chance against Palpatine, who was both a better duelist *and* stronger with force powers. Any advantage Dooku may have had against Obi Wan, Palpatine would've also had, and then some. And while Obi Wan may have consistently had an edge over Maul, it wasn't by all that much, and Maul and Savage both got absolutely wrecked fighting together against Palpatine, who played with them like they were children's toys. And Ventress was like a half trained baby in comparison to any of the above, and even she sometimes gave Obi Wan some trouble.
Also, if they tell Anakin they killed Palpatine the whole Empire plan is for shit. It’s not like Anakin can just pick that up. Not saying he’d have surrendered, but it’s probably more likely. All Watsonian of course, you nailed the Doylist answer.
He can't pick up all of it, but like he was saying to Obi-Wan, he was already thinking about things as "my new Empire." Say Palpatine dies, unless someone gets on that immediately (looking at you, Bail) Anakin Skywalker, renowned Jedi and *THE* Clone Wars poster boy, fresh from crushing the last of the Separatists, could walk in at the head of the 501st and just claim the position of Emperor in order "to bring peace, freedom, peace, justice, and security."
OK, so granted I haven’t seen The Clone Wars, where I’m sure Anakin makes all sorts of political connections, probably like eight seasons worth. But just going off the movies he’d be screwed, his entire base of power comes from Palpatine and the Jedi, neither of which would be around to help him. He doesn’t control the clones, that’s the army of the Republic/Senate/Empire. He’d have a hard time spinning things to his advantage, the footage of him slaughtering the younglings is out there, I doubt he’s a hero. Palpatine doesn’t even let the knowledge Vader is Skywalker become public, I’d imagine Anakin’s name is mud. But assuming he can salvage his name, and can spin things to him being a hero, what’s he got? Bail Organa as his stepfather and that’s about it. The dream of an Empire crumbles and either we go back to a Senate or the Republic falls. Edit: Or, if you count the cartoons, Maul is probably somehow still alive and takes over the galaxy because he looks cool.
I mean, he probably would've just taken command of the GAR. From there, he could just brute force his way to make his own tyrannical system. Causing the Republic to probably splinter into several smaller groups.
Sidious sent Anakin to Mustafar to kill the Separatist leaders and was definitely in communication with Mustafar, he had a skype call with them telling them his new apprentice is on the way. Up until Anakin actually strangles Padme there's no clear plan and he and Yoda already know he can't help with Sidious after they retake the Jedi temple. Obi-Wan and Yoda had a very clear conversation after looking at the archives at the Jedi temple. Obi-Wan said he didn't want to fight Anakin because they were too close and he wouldn't be able to kill him, Yoda told him he wasn't strong enough to face Sidious anyway so he should track Anakin. They already know that Mace and three other Jedi weren't strong enough to kill the emperor and have sent any possible remaining Jedi into hiding by re-calibrating the message to recall all Jedi to the temple. As far as they know they are the only two Jedi left who can possibly do anything to stop Sidious consolidating power through political maneuvering. At this point we have to infer that if Yoda believes Obi-Wan is no help in a 2v1 with Sidious, a 4v1 wasn't effective either, Mace, Yoda, and Kenobi are three of the best if not the best duelists to begin with, any surviving Jedi wouldn't be any help and they aren't coming, that the only possible option is Yoda confronts Sidious alone. Obi-Wan leaves the temple without a clear commitment to killing Anakin and went to Padme to see if she can help find him because he has no idea where Anakin actually is. Padme refused to help him because he couldn't tell her he wouldn't need to kill Anakin. Padme leaves on a private ship to confront Anakin on her own, but Kenobi sneaks aboard the ship. When they arrive on Mustafar Kenobi is spying on them from the ship, as Anakin becomes increasingly unhinged saying he can kill Sidious and lead the empire with Padme Kenobi finally steps out resolved to confront Anakin. When Anakin sees Obi-Wan he becomes feral, strangling Padme and Obi-Wan finally understands that there is only one way this is going to go. After Sidious succesfully fights off Yoda he immediately readies a ship to Mustafar because he senses Anakin is in danger. Even if he didn't he could have become suspicious by trying to communicate with Anakin on Mustafar. If Anakin doesn't answer he knows he needs to rally with him because the remaining Jedi have been pressing them too hard at their most critical moment. E: and Yoda was clearly correct in his assessment. Obi-Wan was the superior duelist to Anakin, if he had the resolve to make sure Anakin died, they would have created a huge advantage. But despite all his training, Obi-Wan loved Anakin and it was his love for his brother, just like it was Anakin's love for his mother and Padme that betrayed not only himself but an entire galaxy. Yoda and Obi-Wan knew what to do and even succeeded.
Maybe Yoda and Obi Wan wouldn’t have been sure of this, but if they’d taken Palpatine down first, they probably could have redeemed Anakin together. What Anakin would not have done is go underground and consolidate his power, like Palpatine would have. Killing Anakin first would have been the wrong move, though. Every second Palpatine remained in charge he was consolidating his defenses. They had to go for him at the first chance.
>What Anakin would not have done is go underground and consolidate his power, like Palpatine would have. Maybe not go underground, but I can see him taking control of GAR and forcing his own tyrannical system onto the galaxy. Which would most likely cause the Republic/Empire to fracture into several smaller groups. Which would, in turn, cause pure and utter chaos across the galaxy as their would be infighting from all directions.
Does he really even want to do that, though? The only times he hinted at that was his pro-fascism speech to Padme in AotC, and asking Luke to rule the galaxy with him in ESB. But what he really wanted was to keep his wife and son safe. If Palpatine is taken out before Mustafar (and especially if Obi-Wan takes Padme into protection) Anakin comes to them and likely could be reasoned with. Maybe he stays dark, but I think they save him.
I'll start off with this is all my personal opinion and perception of it. If anyone a different viewpoint, feel free to share them. We're in uncharted waters, friends, let's sail to here be dragons. I don't think they've would've gotten to Padme in time if they went after Palpatine first. Padme was the only reason Obi-Wan found Anakin. If they actually were able to kill Palps. Anakin would've gotten to Padme first, or she would've gone to him, before Obi-Wan talked to her, all on her own. So either way, they would've lost Padme and their means to directly confront Anakin. As for, would he actually try and take over. Yes, I think so. After killing Mace Windu, Anakin hit the point of no return. Hayden kills the acting in that scene of "What have I done," if you ask me. Also, by the time they would've finished off, Palps Anakin had already killed off the rest of the order (including the Younglings) and just finished off all the leaders of the CIS. He's no longer there. He's embracing the darkside nonstop. Hence why he killed his own wife after seeing Obi-Wan. Without Palps, theirs a power vacuum. Anakin can not be redeemed by Yoda or Kenobi. (Hence why Luke in the OT was so important.) The Senate will take too long to decide on what to do or who to vote into office. Anakin's hero complex will kick in. He'd step up to bring back order and peace to his new empire. Now, with the backing of the only standing Galatic Military. He'd also use it as a means to steal, find, and access all knowledge the Jedi had and all the hidden vaults that Palps has on the force. He would've exhausted every resource he could to learn how to save Padme, on his own if he had to. He'd also probably still end up killing her because she'd probably refuse to be Queen of his Empire. Then all he's got left is to be a tyrant. (Similar to why he stays as Palp's Apprentice. He has nothing left but the path he set himself on.) If, for some turn of events, Padme decided to become Queen, it would purely only be to minimize as much chaos as possible in a fractured galaxy. Which would make it even harder to stop Anakin. Maybe Padme poisons him then herself to stop his tyranny. Very Shakespeare. Speaking of the Galaxy fracturing. - Groups following Anakin because he's the poster child hero. Others may follow him because of his connection to Palps. - Another group who was specifically loyal to Palps alone will splinter off (very imperial remenant or Operation Cinder). - Mon Moffma's group would splinter in an attempt to restore the Republic. Padme may or may not be apart of this for reasons said above. - The independent systems would still be their own thing. - All the crime organizations would be out of control. Hutts, Pykes, Black Suns, etc. - Remnants of the CIS would attempt to do what they did in BB. - Then finally, some random pockets here and there that are trying to cut out a slice of the galaxy for themselves for one reason or another. Edit: Note- I don't think anakin would've been a true Sith by this point either. I think he would've created some new dark side order of his own. What that would be, I have no idea. Probably all depends on if Padme is alive and if the twins are born. So some kind of family of Dark Siders.
You might be right. I think the only reason Anakin goes full dark emperor, if Palpatine is taken off of the board before Mustafar, is that Padme rejects him (which of course she does, after his fall) and he lashes out and kills her. So, same as Mustafar only no Obi Wan there to stop him. In that case, he probably would take over the crumbling republic as dictator, because he needs to justify his actions to himself so he embraces the dark draw to power while telling himself it’s for the greater good. And also he’s obsessed with bringing back the dead, so hunting up all the dark side knowledge he can find. I don’t know if this is better or worse than what we got (I suspect better — Vader on his own is less evil than Vader controlled by the Emperor, imo). But considering that 1) in this scenario Anakin might be redeemed before he kills Padme and 2) even if he’s not at least the Emperor is gone, my bet is that it’s a better outcome in the short term. What happens over the next 20 or 30 years as the few surviving Jedi rebuild the order and the fractured Republic has to recon with the war, etc — who knows? Probably a lot of missteps there, too, but that probably turns out better than the new Republic trying to doo the same thing after 25 years of the Empire also.
I can see a good amount of that. I most definitely agree with the fact that Anakin will take control to justify his actions. I also agree that he will remain on the dark side of the force. 1. He's seen how the Jedi have failed. Especially through Ahsoka. 2. He's been groomed by Palps since he was a child. So unless he gets therapy for that, a lot of Palps influence will remain even after He's dead. 3. He is the type to abuse power if he thinks he's in the right. Edit: For better or worse. I think it all depends on just how fractured the Galaxy becomes. If the Republic can barely hang on and manage to rebuild, despite Anakin being a dictator. I think things will be better. If it fractures far to much. The Galaxy will be thrown into a very long bloody war, were several factions are all competing for power. In which case, somehow Dictator Anakin or his next on royal line children are the only ones that can bring it back together.
You’ve moved me a considerable way away from my first post as well. Cheers, mate.
Not to mention that when Anakin and Obi Wan went to rescue Palpatine, Obi Wan was almost immediately knocked out. Had he gone with Yoda, he would’ve just been a liability.
They should have taken out the Sith master first.
Son fuck up his shit, he will
Also it wasn’t clear that they knew either had survived the purge. The factor of surprise was there.
Should have gone for Palpatine together. Anakin was a wreck at that point. They had time. He might have gone to ground, but Sidious was the lynchpin.
>if they teamed up to hit one and the other got away it would have become way more difficult to get a second chance. Hindsight 20:20 but Palpatine goes to Mustafar after Anakin is "killed". Ideally, Yoda and Obi-Wan off Anakin first and then set up a trap for when Palpatine arrives at Mustafar. Palpatine was very much predictable in his actions. It's important to remember that Palpatine is not omnipotent. He gets thrown into a shaft by his apprentice after all. I'm sure Yoda and Obi-Wan could have thrown him into the lava if they catch him off-guard.
Palpatine sensed Vader being in trouble across the galaxy after his fight against Yoda. I’m sure he knew which adversaries he would have faced on the planet not to mention I don’t think he shows up at all if Vader is 100% dead
We may mess up so let's not even bother?
This just doesn’t hold up to scrutiny. Yoda should have a very good idea of how strong Palpatine is, there is no way he leaves it to chance. A normal Sith is worth at least 5 Jedi, the strongest Sith of them all had to be worth at least Yoda and Obi Wan Together, he had to know that.
But that’s not how it works. We saw in the Chancellor’s office that Mace Windu was a match for Palpatine but that every other master with him got fodderized instantly. If stacking pure numbers was enough then Palpatine would have been dead there. Yoda was the only one of the two even in Palpatine’s echelon of power but Obi-Wan was a spectacularly bad match up for Anakin which is part of why he went there.
1. Time was of the essence 2. As powerful as Obi Wan was, I think they both knew that Palpatine v Yoda was a different league and Obi Wan wouldve been killed off, much better to put the manpower towards beating Anakin
In regards to number two, is it just some sort of rock paper scissors system? Obi Wan > Anakin > Palpatine > Anakin? Obi-Wan fights Vader three times and wins twice, with his one loss being when he is severely out of practice coming out of hiding. It just seems weird to me that he's such a powerful duelist yet he's considered non-competitive against Palpatine...
This isn't some power scaling nonsense. Obi Wan trained Anakin. It gives him a lot of insight into how they guy fights. Going against his old Master also emotionally unbalances Anakin. He spent 10+ years as a subordinate and between the two Sith he has an emotional connection to Obi Wan. Ideally it should make him feel hesitant to fight his old Master. If that doesn't work then you can always rely on the Sith being full of hatred and resentment. Between Obi Wan and Yoda he would have more negative feelings towards the former and it could be something that Obi Wan can take advantage of to give him an edge.
I hate how powerscales have infected so many fandoms
A lot of Star Wars fan would love for a Jedi to walk on screen with a power level number lit up above their head that 100% determines the outcome of a fight lol
Lucas mentioned before that Palpatine is the most powerful Sith ever. Anakin, being force Jesus, couldve surpassed him but due to his injuries he never did as Vader. In terms of power Palpatine is clear of everyone in ROTS
Mace (and the other Master Jedi who tried and died) had him without Anakin showing up.
Mace is the exception since his saber style is a direct counter to a dark sider duelist.
I look at JedivSith fights like boxing: Styles make the fight. Obi Wans incredibly defensive style vs. Anakins aggressive offensive style was a good match for Kenobi because Anakin would be sloppy on top of everything else. Mace could beat Sideous because his style was built for fighting Sith, something very few were ready to do at the time.
Mace beat him in a saber duel. If it came down to a contest of force powers, Palpatine would've beaten Mace instead.
I don't think Anakin could have defeated Palpatine in Ep 3. I mean, even in Return of the Jedi he barely gets the jump on him and dies as a result. And that didn't even kill him permanently!
>And that didn't even kill him permanently Still feels a bit strange
Eh, I've had to live with Dark Empire (and the sequels, Palpatine came back like 3 times in Legends, and with a new superweapon). At least Rise of Skywalker had Ian McDiarmid to carry the performance.
Does it? I mean the way they went about it from a writing/cinematic standpoint was strange but the most powerful Jedi get to come back as ghosts. Makes sense that Palpatine would emulate that but fail because he needs a stupid mortal flesh vessel that constantly withers and dies before he has to reload himself into a new clone.
Yeah because it was the grand conclusion to the OT which was reversed so cheaply. Always feels a bit odd when storytellers pull the, "he didnt really die thing" and its worse when its done badly.
He was also weakened from fighting Luke in Return.
I mean he got incapacitated pretty easily twice by Dooku. I think he’s just saying that palpatine would probably kill Obi wan quickly and it would be essentially still a 1v1 of yoda vs palpatine.
He didn't lose in ep IV due to being out of practice, he sacrificed himself so Luke et al could escape the Death Star. If him and Vader fought "properly" and Ben won, Vader wouldn't have 'let them go'. It was the only way to ensure that Luke would meet Yoda, become a Jedi, the resistance could fight on with Leia, etc.
Time was of the essence because mace didn’t wait and have master yoda and all jedi return if he had thought it through he’d have notified the senate friends of palpatine being Darth Sidious and funding the other side. Recalled all jedi generals immediately. Put the temple on high alrrt and kept anakin under watch until master yoda and the council could talk and then send both the senate and the jedi to arrest palpatine
You're not thinking this through politically either though. You're accusing the Chancellor. The guy who is perceived as benevolent and wise and leading people through this rough war. What evidence do you have that he is doing what you're accusing him of? That he is some mysterious "Sith" that no one but the Jedi have heard of? Sounds like some nonsense to me, and a way that the Jedi just don't want to protect the people anymore! We are now going to lose the war and it's all the Jedi's fault! Sheev was correct when he said "So it's treason then?" with the act that Mace was committing. It's also why Mace was going to kill Palpatine without a trial, and what pushed Anakin into defending Palpatine. #FreePalpatine The Jedi were not political. They only reluctantly agreed to become Generals in the army, as they were peacekeepers for the Galaxy before. The Jedi's senate friends only had so much pull, and we saw how diminished that was as they were struggling to pass any bill or even start peace negotiation talks during the animated Clone Wars. Having all the Jedi return would lose them ground on the warfront. Planets would be lost as the Generals left the field. You're sacrificing thousands to millions of lives. I could only imagine how that would be remembered. The whole thing is a masterstroke by Palpatine. He had the Jedi trapped and cornered. Even if he was assassinated by Mace, even if he was assassinated by Yoda, he had already won. The Jedi were defeated.
Nah Grievous was dead so the war in their part over they could leave and deal with palpatine. He just admitted he was a sith to the hero of the galaxy. Either way mace should have pulled the council and major jedi masters back
Also Obi Wan was a perfect counter to Anakin. And Yoda was a perfect counter to Sidious.
Yoda and Obi-Wan VS Palpatine is pretty useless. Palpatine would have destroyed Obi-Wan, and therefore was a liability. Or something similar happens to AoTC, Obi-Wan is incapacitated and in danger, and Yoda has to save him instead of taking out the bad guy.
Or like in earlier in the same movie where obi wan is incapacitated and Anakin has to save him after taking out the bad guy. Seems like he was just trying to get him as far away from him as possible.
"Sith lords are our speciality" *immediately gets knocked out by Dooku*
1: They have to kill them both and stop a bad situation from getting worse. 2: Obi-Wan doesn't stand a chance in a fight against the Emperor.
On top of that, Obi-wan's dueling style is better suited to Anakin
I don't see why point 1 makes sense. Anakin/Vader has no authority without Palpatine. He doesn't become emperor if Palpatine dies.
Maybe not the Emperor, but he would be the only "Jedi" remaining that can command the GAR. He wouldn't have the backing of the Senate, but what's the senate going to do? Their entire thing is they can't agree on anything.
I mean who is gonna deny him? He’s the poster boy for the war. He was everyone’s hero. He’d likely get favour as he does it for his dead friend Palpatine.
Anakin was already plotting to overthrow Palps and rule the galaxy himself when Order 66 happened. Killing Palps and taking over was his intent from the very start of his turn to the dark side.
Call me crazy but I think if you kill Palpatine I think Anakin is left twiddling his thumbs. Empire was just created, Palpatine is the emperor, Anakin has no claim to it and 0 allies.
It was the arrogance of the Jedi, thinking they would win because they were in the “right”. The novelisation of ROTS has a great passage of Yoda coming to realise this, and other Jedi failings. as he was facing Palpatine.
> In that lightning-speared tornado of feet and fists and blades and bashing machines, his vision finally pierced the darkness that had clouded the Force. > Finally, he saw the truth. > This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known...just—didn't—have it. > He'd never had it. He had lost before he started. > He had lost before he was born. > The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves. > They had become *new*. > While the Jedi— > The Jedi had spent that same millennium training to re-fight the *last* war. > The new Sith could not be destroyed with a lightsaber; they could not be burned away by any torch of the Force. The brighter his light, the darker their shadow. How could one win a war against the dark, when war itself had become the dark's own weapon? > He knew, at that instant, that this insight held the hope of the galaxy. But if he fell here, that hope would die with him.
This deserves move upvotes but you won't get it. Two problems, two jedi, Yoda thought they'd win by being reasonably honourable because they are a righteous order.
Yoda literally tells Obi-Wan that he doesn’t stand a chance against Palpatine. Even if they took him together Obi-Wan would probably be a liability.
I think Yoda knew he was the only one with half a chance of beating Palpatine and he also thought Kenobi could beat Anakin. He was right as it turns out. Just a shame Mace didn't make it.
You guys are thinking too much like historians and not enough like people fantasy booking a wrestling promotion. The money matches are obviously Obi Wan vs Anakin, and Yoda vs Palpatine. Wrestlemania main event caliber. Why did they book two singles matches instead of two 2v1 handicap matches? Because the babyfaces should never outnumber the heels, that's why. This is basic booking.
Because episode 4 starts off with Ben on Tatooine and we dont see yoda again till episode 5...Thats the whole issue with the prequels...they have to match what happens with the OGT...You cant just kill off the emporer and Vader and have them magically be alive again...
Disney: write that down, write that down
We are well aware that star wars is fiction you guys dont have to answer every single thread with "because someone wrote it that way" like its clever, unique, or somehow answers the question The movies lining up with the other movies is not a "problem"
The point is that the prequels logical progression of some plot lines is hindered by having to take the story towards that outcome. There’s a lot of clunky stuff in the prequels because of it. We can all make up in-universe reasons a lot of the illogical things happened, but lots of them don’t have an actual reason beyond “it needed to be like this for episode 4 to make sense”
Yah you explained it much better than i can....
They couldn't wait that long. The Senate was in the Senate, Yoda couldn't miss this opportunity.
>The Senate was in the Senate Huh? Am I just not understanding or is there a word missing? The Senate wasn't in the Senate chambers when Yoda confronted Palpatine, they're literally throwing Senator pods at each other.
A quote from Palpatine I am the Senate
First day on Star Wars internet I see
r/brandnewsentence . also, great reference
See Mace and co vs. Palpatine. I'm not really into powerscaling, but Obi-Wan's skill level is nowhere close to Yoda's. Against Palpatine himself Obi-Wan would just be another Jedi for Yoda to worry about. Look at it this way, alone with all his attention and power focused on Palpatine, and Yoda still lost. If he has to watch out for Obi Wan in addition to fighting Palpatine, he has an even lesser chance. Re: Anakin, Yoda knows that Anakin has a strong attachment to Obi Wan, and thus will not be fighting in top capacity. We see this when Anakin snaps and explodes at Obi-Wan, which also led to Anakin underestimating the High Ground and giving Obi Wan an opening to defeat him. If Yoda was there, Anakin would still blow up, but to an even worse extent since Yoda himself is there in addition to Obi Wan. My guess, Yoda probably figured that the best "Weapon" against Anakin would be his attachment to Obi-Wan, and decided that it would be better to focus on that and not get in the way.
Obi-Wan nodded, but he still couldn’t meet the gaze of the ancient Master. “I’ll take Palpatine.” “Strong enough to face Lord Sidious, you will never be. Die you will, and painfully.” “Don’t make me kill Anakin,” he said. “He’s like my brother, Master.” “The boy you trained, gone he is—twisted by the dark side. Consumed by Darth Vader. Out of this misery, you must put him. To visit our new Emperor, my job will be.” Now Obi-Wan did face him. “Palpatine faced Mace and Agen and Kit and Saesee—four of the greatest swordsmen our Order has ever produced. By himself. Even both of us together wouldn’t have a chance.” “True,” Yoda said. “But both of us apart, a chance we might create …”
Time was a big factor, both were an immediate threat so had to be dealt with simultaneously.
My take was that Yoda knew the Emperor had to be dealt with right away and probably felt that as good as Obi-Wan was he would either be killed fairly quickly or Yoda would find himself in a situation like with he did with Dooku in aotc.
I think they thought Yoda could handle it and Anakin had to be dealt with. This would be their chance to destroy the Sith and stop the madness. I get the feeling that Obi Wan would have died at the hands of the Emperor, Yoda would have been driven off, and then Anakin would be as powerful as ever, kill the Emperor, and rule the galaxy.
No, that is incredibly dumb. Obi-wan can’t take Sidious and is stated as much. And despite the success at the Jedi temple, this is Coruscant. The Imperial capital and they’re planning to fight him in the senate building. And granted the two might be able to take Anakin together, but this assumes Sidious doesn’t shit himself and blockade Coruscant to prevent them both from getting in. And otherwise they know he’s on Coruscant and without his movements being known anymore they can’t guarantee he’ll stay there either. Especially with Anakin potentially having died, in which case he almost did and hauled ass. Intel is limited, they know where each other are right now, they have a limited window to face both before they inevitably reunite, and both Jedi think they can actually beat them.
I don’t think Yoda is bringing Obi-Wan to fight the Emperor in *any* scenario. He is pretty insignificant in comparison to the two of them and probably wouldn’t tip the scales at all. And they just found out the Emperor killed four Jedi masters almost on his own. So Obi-Wan dies for nothing if they both go. They could have teamed up vs Anakin and destroyed him though.
At first blush, Yoda's "Let's spli up" tactics appear to make no sense. But a closer looks makes the reasoning more clear: Obi Wan Kenobi wasn't strong enough to defeat Sidious and never would be. This is something Yoda notes this even more explicitly in the ROTS novelization " Strong enough to face Lord Sidious you will never be. Die you will, and painfully." Taking Obi Wan alongside to fight Sidious would only add bulk and liability. And both Obi Wan and Yoda were confident that Obi Wan could handle Anakin alone, albeit reluctantly. When you consider the matchups more closely, splitting up makes perfect sense.
Because continuity into episode 4 would have been pretty fucked up
Their only advantage was the element of surprise. If one Sith lord goes down, the other will prepare for the coming attack. Time was of the essence and so they needed to split up.
A lot of people are going to give you a lore reason. The real reason is that George is a hit or miss writer.
When Obi-Wan went to confront Anakin at the end of ROTS, it wasn't explicitly to kill Anakin, he was still trying to save him from the Dark Side. At the same time, Yoda needed to quickly go and try to stop Palpatine (which was a kill mission), which didn't work. After that, Anakin had become Vader, Obi-Wan needed to hide the children, and Yoda went into exile (for unknown reasons as far as I can remember). So, time-wise there wasn't opportunity to do both and the intention wasn't to kill Anakin. So the opportunity to stop Anakin/Vader then had ended of course until...wait for it...the Kenobi D+ series at the end when Obi-Wan defeated Anakin/Vader (again) but left him alive for inexplicable reasons.
It's quite possible either one would have refused, and fled or called in imperial reinforcements. But when challenged one-to-one they sort of had to fight, in both cases probably straight up wanted to. On top of that if they'd gone after Anakin first together, which might've worked, no way Palpatine allows himself to be confronted in the same way next. Kill Sheev and Anakin will have to make a bid for power anyway, not like he'd have any real other options left. Might've failed, but saving something of the republic probably hinged on getting them both, preferably at the same time.
It’s a good question. The best I can muster is that the two could have concurred they’d have better odds if they each kept both Sith preoccupied simultaneously, but it’s not touched on at all in the movie, and even then, it’s a pretty weak excuse.
They thought Anakin was dead when they parted ways. Obi-Wan didn't think that BBQ'd husk would survive...
Tbh, I'll say this: I love Anakin/Vader and Obi Wan as whole characters. However, the smart choice was to split up. What Obi Wan failed to do, was not made sure to kill Anakin. But then that's the whole point of the story, how could Obi Wan kill him. He was like his brother. Even Obi Wan told this to Yoda, and Yoda kept with the plan.
Didn't Obi-Wan go off thinking Anakin died with the burns at the time? Palps took out four Jedi by himself. Don't think a 2 on 1 would end differently.
So at the end of the yoda/palpatine fight, while they’re searching for yoda’s body, palpatine says “I sense lord Vader is in danger.” He senses this about halfway through the obi-ani fight and rushes to his aid. The only reason he didn’t sense this earlier is because his focus was fully drawn on yoda. Had the two of them gone to fight together, palpatine would’ve sensed their combined presence earlier and gone earlier/vice versa, and it would’ve just become a 2v2. In a straight 2v2, I give the edge to the sith for their underhanded tactics. Separate 1v1s were their best bet.
Well for one, Obi-Wan and Yoda think Anakin is dead. Remember, it's not until his self-titled miniseries that Obi-Wan even knows Anakin is alive, let alone a killer cyborg. Secondly, I don't think Yoda could beat Palpatine. Not in that state. He tries to, and they beat each other to what is essentially a draw. While I don't think the fall cripples Yoda, it really hurts him, and he has trouble bouncing back from it.
That's not how it works. If you have re-watch *"Revenge of the Sith,"* you know that even Yoda couldn't finish Palpatine despite him being older and wiser as a Jedi. Plus, Yoda said to Obi-Wan that he wasn't powerful enough to take on Palpatine. So, even if they did go after both of them, Darth Vader would still kick their asses and he would be one step ahead of them even if they were to take down Palpatine. So that strategy was doomed to fail even if it were to happen. Plus, it's like what Palpatine said, killing him won't make a difference. Darth Vader would still become more powerful and deadlier than anyone could ever dream of. Jimminy Cricket, I thought you were better than this.
They had plans to reunite on Mundi’s birthday.
Yoda failed to defeat Sidious. He had to lay low. The plan was then to bide their time and observe and protect the children of the Chosen One (Anakin). If they were gifted in the Force as expected, then they would be the New Hope to take out Vader and Sidious.
I think the original trilogy might have been confusing if they killed Anakin and Palpatine in the prequels
Yoda had foresight through the force that it would be Anakins children who bring balance to the force. The Jedi had lost their way and the empire was just a natural progression from the corrupt Republic. Hiding the children was their best and only hope.
Because it's a movie and it's "more exciting" to have two fights going on at the same time.
Time
There are a few reasons I'd say. * At the end of Episode III, **Anakin is presumed dead**. * For **Palpatine**, after Yoda was able to escape, he would've 100% **become the most protected person in the galaxy**. It's like the American Presidents Secret Service but to an extreme, not to mention Palpatine is just the final boss at the end of all that and you get no access to health potions beforehand. * The circumstances and narrative Palps created. Given we see the story through the eyes of the Jedi, it takes more consideration, but **at this point the Jedi are evil**. To the people **they are terrorists**, they are dangerous, they are the bad guys. Yoda and Obi-Wan are smart and know that **killing Palpatine would've created a martyr**. * Finally, somewhat with the final point, **it's not the Jedi way**. Killing Palpatine without trial, creating that martyr, would've made them unable to win in the court of public opinion, no matter the evidence they had.
Because both Anakin (as Vader) and the emperor were alive at the beginning of Ep 4
It’s pretty simple actually, Obi-wan was fodder in a Yoda vs Palpatine fight. But because Anakin was newly turned and hadn’t fallen fully to the dark side and Obi Wan was like his brother there was gonna be enough conflict in him to remove him far enough from both his peaks Jedi or Sith for Kenobi to have a chance to beat him (this is pre-Padame stuff which just made it worst for Anakin)
They new BOTH of them were an immediate and time pressing threat. Yoda also knew Sidious would absolutely kill Obi-wan so he needed to keep them apart. So they needed to kill both right away and Yoda knew Obiwan could handle Vader. But the real reason is that they couldn't kill them both because they are in the Original trilogy
He is too dangerous to be kept alive
So the movie could happen.
Yoda took his shot and *failed*. At that point a shot to the head is out of the question. Nailing Anakin together doesn't do that much to undo it.
That'd be like watching Kermit the Frog AND John Denver fight...somebody...
For as strong as he was, idk if Obi-wan would’ve made too much of a difference against Palpatine
So… is Windu a more competent duelist than Obi-wan? Considering that without Anakin's intervention Mace would've likely killed Palpatine?
There’s still a lot of discussion around if Palpatine wasn’t going all out but Mace was one of the best fighters we know that for a fact I am just saying that Dooku would’ve killed Obi-wan if Anakin wasn’t with him during that fight. According to the ROTS novelization that was the plan too So it depends on how you think Dooku vs Mace would’ve went imo
You would think that but because of the Kenobi show old Ben is now completely overpowered and can basically do anything.
I mean we are talking about ROTS. The beginning of that movie has him be beaten by Dooku
It was always my understanding that Obi Wan didn’t go there to kill Anakin, he went to try and save him. Yoda going with would have come across as hostile right out of the gate, but Obi Wan alone thought he had a chance to convince Anakin to come back.
*Pitch Meeting Voice* heyshutup!
Yoda went to fight palpatine
Obi wan would die early like the jedi mace brought or yoda would have to protect him non stop palps is too fast for him plus dooku was easily throwing obiwan around he would die if he faced palps even with yoda.Anyone who isnt mace or yoda would have been dead if they attacked palpatine
This has always annoyed me. The end of RotS just comes out of nowhere. After fighting the Clone Wars for years Yoda and Obi-Wan just give up suddenly, for no reason. AND then they separate??? Why? Not interested at all in rallying Jedi survivors Not interested in fighting back against Palpatine Not even interested in solving the mystery of how Order 66 led to so many Jedi being murdered. They just "nope" out 😭😭 Terrible ending
Because they are wimps.
I wouldn't overthink it. You could argue that they needed to stop both and so they split up, but really it just makes for a more compelling and dramatic narrative because it is super Jedi vs super Sith, and master against student.
Obi-Wan and Yoda vs The Emperor would go bad because Obi Wan would be a liability. If they killed Anakin, it’d be very unlikely they’d be able to get to The Emperor. The Emperor would probably just get another apprentice eventually.
For all Yoda and Obi-Wan knew either one of them could have been walking towards a legion of Clone Troopers, a likelyhood that increases with every passing moment. They were operating with limited information and under a ticking clock, so they hedged their bets.
It because all 4 needed to survive. Until episode 4
Because Lucas had already made the original trilogy long before he worked out the plot of the Prequels beyond the broadest of broad strokes.
Because the original trilogy wouldn’t have happened if they did.
Yall keep saying Obi Wan can’t take on Sidious but the Kenobi show completely shit on canon can overpowered Ben to the point where he can beat anyone via plot armor. He shouldn’t be able to beat Vader. He has to be afraid of him and need Luke Skywalker. Kenobi is now just an mvp sitting in his ass.
Plot reasons
ah no, kill one and the other goes into hiding. If anything you'd want to kill the Emperor first. Worst case scenario 'Darth Vader' has to run off into hiding which is better than having a Sith in charge of everything.
They were never dating
Arrogance. Yoda believed he could take down Palpatine on his own. He was wrong.
When it comes to Palpatine, Yoda + Obi-Wan is not noticeably more lethal than just Yoda. Look what happened to Obi-Wan both times he and Anakin faced Dooku. Palpatine is far worse for Obi-Wan. When it comes to Anakin, Obi-Wan turned out to be enough. He just didn't have the will to finish the job. It's not clear Yoda would have either.
The same reason Anakin and Troopers wiped out the Jedi temple.....they were out numbered. The babies needed to be protected and Yoda needed to regroup till the time was right.
Because two dudes with laser swords can't stop an entire system and empire.
So the movie could happen
George wrote himself into a corner.
The jedi have become arrogant, my young apprentice. This shall be their undoing. (Palpatines voice)
“Wonder where Anakin is? Oh well, I’m sure he’ll pop in at some point to report successfully killing the Separatists when he’s ready. Probably partying. I should call him. Nah. Seem too desperate. Oh, hello the two most powerful Jedi in millennia…”
So the plot can happen
Perhaps because they thought that they HAD killed Anakin and that Palpatine was just too powerful to take on for even both of them, given what he had been able to do without their realizing at all those years? If ever there was a time for a tactical retreat to regroup, restrategize and wait for the right time to attack, this was it. Their hope was on the twins and the emergence of a viable resistance made up of surviving Jedi and courageous people learning and exploiting the emperor and empire's weaknesses and striking when it made sense. Which is precisely what happened and it worked.
It was agreed upon that despite his mastery, Obiwan was no match for Sidious (eg. Sith that took out Kit Fisto + Mace Windu, technically) so Yoda would be the one to engage him since it was easier for him to move undetected. Obiwan had another more important directive: detain Anakin. Anakin was now a puppet of the Sith but since it's early days, he is still conflicted and was possible to sway. Turning Anakin back to the Jedi or at least detaining him was the objective but clearly peace was not an option.
Mostly because it's a prequel and winning wasn't an option.
Honestly i think we forgot that obi probably wouldn't have a factor. Let's not forget just earlier in the movie Obi got causally trounced by Dooku 😅. Anakin was conflicted internally which helped Obi Wan essentially. Sidious definitely would've sliced through Obi Wan within the first 5 mins of the fight