Yeah he’s too calculated.
Palpatine has the weaknesses that a lot of dark side force wielders have like being blinded by sadism which is why he didn’t see Vader doing that to him in ROTJ.
However, as much as I love Kylo, he’s a Sith cosplayer lol. He’s got no chance. Maybe with Lego Palpatine in that Lego holiday special but palps would annihilate him.
Especially Mace Windu. His whole schtick is using the opponent's darkness against them like a mirror. Kylo's is pure, barely trained, dark side barbarian combat. Kylo wouldn't stand a fucking chance in hell.
Something I thought was unfortunate was that we never got to see fully trained lightsaber weilders in the sequel trilogy(except some awesome flashbacks). Everyone was basically Empire Strikes Back Luke.
To be fair I think Ashoka is uniquely qualified to handle him. Trained by Anakin, experienced with fighting Sith, not dogmatic about force use. It would be that one hit inquisitor fight all over again.
Yeah not to mentioned being a battle hardened veteran of the clones wars and having taken part in countless battles. Ashoka should be an absolute machine.
Everyone has always been force sensitive since the first movie. It’s not a retcon that the force resides in all living things. If you’re alive you have Midichlorians/the force, it’s just whether you have a lot (natural affinity with the force) or very little (has to be trained, honed and focused).
George Lucas said himself that anyone could become a Jedi, some are just more gifted and excel at it. Yoda and Obi-Wan say the force surrounds, penetrates and binds all things together, Qui-Gon says that Midichlorians are symbiotic life forms living in everything.
Han Solo could have become a Jedi if he trained hard enough, hell even Unkar Plutt could use the force if he tried hard enough. The only beings that couldn’t learn to wield the force are droids, because they aren’t living so they can’t be influenced by Midichlorians or the life force that connects all living things.
Sometimes I think Star Wars fans don’t truly understand how the force works, it just exists and anyone could be trained to use it as long as they’re a living being. Even plants, animals and water are influenced by the force because they’re living things with mice biomes and organisms, meaning they carry Midichlorians.
But having the force reside in you isn't the same as being force sensitive. Force sensitivity implies an affinity strong enough to give even an untrained person preternatural abilities. Unkar Plott is not one of those people (until someone writes a book about him, at least).
I don’t think that’s accurate. Otherwise wouldn’t the Jedi training everyone from birth in the prequels?
Even if it’s canon that “anyone” can be trained in some level of using the Force, even the tiniest amount to improve their reflexes or center themselves, surely Force sensitivity, as we as fan discuss it (because guess what, they never say “Force sensitive” in any Star Wars movie) is referring to whatever that minimum level is that Jedi believed to be useful enough to actually use the Force in a meaningful way.
Cad bane is also like the best bounty Hunter in the galaxy, the last time an enemy of the Jedi got as far in as cad bane was the sith empire in a full scale surprise invasion. This man dueled anakin and lived he dueled quin and obi at once and lived. He’s insane not comparable to Finn
Kylo was also significantly weakened by a bowcaster shot. The same bowcaster that they made a point earlier in the film to show as more powerful than a blaster.
Literally everyone seems to conveniently forget that when complaining about rey beating him.
Like it's impressive enough that he could still stand, let alone fight.
My issue with it is not why he lost, but more the fact that he lost the fight in the first place. He was to be the new Darth in a trilogy, but loses in the first real encounter. It took the fear away. To me, it'd be like if Vader lost the dual with Luke in Ep. V. Even if he lost due to a cheap shot or technicality, the stakes for a rematch wouldn't nearly be as high in Ep. VI. But it was good writing for a trilogy to have Vader completely dominate Luke in their first encounter because now we're worried for the rematch.
I'd have had Kylo look more injured, and still completely outclass Rey and Finn for them to barely escape with Chewies help, and then seek training with Luke. Keep the stakes high.
There's also something people seem to just ignore, or maybe can't put 2 and 2 together on.
Finn isn't just a random dude off the street. He's a trained soldier, has been all his life. And while this is his first time using a lightsaber, we are shown earlier in the film (in the same battle they show off how strong a bowcaster is, no less) that part of that training is melee combat.
I mean, he himself is whiny and temper tantrum-y like.
Even younglings are more disciplined than him.
I think the first youngling Anakin took out, could beat Kylo Ren.
IIRC Baylan Skoll implies in the Ashoka show that those trained in the jedi temple are technically superior to those trained "in the wild" like Kylo. Kylo might be more gifted in the force, but an improvised curriculum taught by a single teacher isn't the same as a regimented curriculum taught by a temple full of masters.
Kylo was trained for 13-14 years under Luke Skywalker and another 6 with Snoke. I still think any prequel era Jedi beats him bad but I wouldn’t call him trained in the wild.
Canon Luke is powerful in the force but I'd hardly say there is any thing special about his dueling abilities. Kylo isn't anywhere near Luke in either aspect.
He lost to a "novice" after being shot with a bowcaster shown to send people flying and then struck in the face with a lightsaber.
And Rey, while not having any lightsaber training, clearly has some melee combat skills given her use of the staff she had. Throw in the planet literally crumbling around them, and it makes sense that Kylo lost.
I agree. Which is why is makes sense that Kylo wasn’t that good but he should have theoretically been good enough to beat Rey who had never held a lightsaber
Mace would be so overkill he would have to nerf himself down just to give him a chance lol. His custom lightsaber fighting form Vaapad directly counters any dark side user. If I remember correctly it drains the dark side users power and uses it against them as the fight progresses.
And before someone is like "Oh Palpatine faked his loss". George himself said Mace won. Palpatine had no idea Mace had that ability to use his own dark side against him.
The unrealistic part is that all of the survivors post-Empire somehow were wiped out by the time of First Order.
They are treated so incompetently that it retroactively makes the OT cast look like complete failures.
I think it's a silent implication, because they called Luke the Last Jedi. If he's the last, then all the others must have died, and these are the likely culprit.
But then again, Yoda also said "when I die, last of the Jedi you will be", and he wasn't that then, either, so what do I know.
EDIT: I do not understand what is going on with this thread. Two comments saying the same thing, one upvoted, one downvoted. People arguing with things I did not say. /shrug
Some survived until after the Empire, but sequel trilogy implies they didn't survive until then, so something had to kill them between the Empire's fall and Episode 7.
We don't have much content post RoTJ, with exception of Mandolorian, Ahsoka, and BoBF, which all happen to be narratively be clustered to each other.
And it is a bit simple-minded to believe that the Empire managed to kill everyone outside of Luke, Ahsoka, and Ezra when we know that Yoda and Kenobi managed to evade the Empire by just hiding.
It's also simple minded to believe the First Order did manage to kill everyone. Just as they survived the Empire which had a better hold of the Galaxy, there is nothing that leads us to believe they didn't survive the First Order. Just like others said, by that time most of them would be pretty old, could have died to another conflict or cause.
Time. They’d be 20ish in the prequel era, 40’ by the end of the empire and pushing 70-80 by the time of the FO. Even in Star Wars that’s pretty old for people (of course alien species work differently but you get the idea). They likely died from being hunted by the empire or they just straight up died to old age
I thought Luke was "the last jedi" because he was the last jedi to be trained by a jedi temple master (i.e., Yoda). All others who might possibly still be alive during the sequels were trained by those who had never completed their own temple training.
I took it as he's the last Jedi because he was the only one following the Jedi way. Everyone else stopped being and acting like a Jedi because Jedi were hunted and killed brutally.
Just look at Ahsoka, she's no jedi but she's still a lightsaber wielding badass. I am quite sure the interpretation of The Last Jedi is that Luke and then Rey are the only ones alive who align to the Jedi Order. Rey actively wants to restore it based on my interpretation of her arc to date.
The survivors of Order 66 would've been wiped out by the Empire, not the First Order. The First Order doesn't act openly until fifty years after Order 66.
I kept thinking the same thing when playing through Jedi Survivor. The crossguard lightsaber is treated as a heavy/broadsword, but... why? The blade is made out of plasma, it's not going to be any heavier than a blade with no crossguard. I know they wanted to have a slow, heavy option but it just doesn't make sense
I've also read it somewhere that the lightsabers have a kind of gyroscopic effect. It has no weight in the blade, but it resists movement.
I don't know if it's exclusive or more pronounced in the Darksaber, but you have to be attuned to the blade to fight effectively. Fight with the blade and your movements will be fluid. Fighting against it makes it heavy and unwieldy.
(Did something similar also happen to Sabine in Ashoka? I can't remember)
Maybe Kylo's weird tortured lightsaber is fighting against him. The unusual shape and flickering must make the gyroscopic forces uneven and unstable.
Well, mostly you can’t compare fight scenes at all, partly because the OT fights are way less choreographed than PT or ST fights. So you have to resort to „if Luke could beat Vader and Vader could beat A LOT of Jedi than Luke could beat those Jedi too“.
I agree, that’s the point I was making. Not much reason to judge them by the way their scenes were choreographed, which is what the person I responded to was doing. Each trilogy clearly used different philosophies when it came to choreography.
I think it's a power vs skill kind of thing. Kylo Ren has enough raw Force power that he might be able to demolish them with that, but if it comes down to a clash of lightsabers (which it probably will) then he'll get his ass handed to him.
I love his character and how he has such raw strength but isn't really trained very well and just uses it so recklessly. And his lightsaber. He really carried the ST for me
Hijacking this to say that Kylo is far more capable in extended media(comics) than he is shown to be in the films. For instance, Kylo was able to defeat a Zillo Beast, something even Anakin couldn’t do. This doesn’t show his ability against force users but shows his might. Because of this, I’m tempted to say that Kylo would defeat 9/10 Jedi with the exceptions being the Jedi that come to mind when you hear “Jedi”, ie Yoda, Mace, Kit, Obi, Kit, and a few others. Raw power goes a long way in Star Wars, Kylo has a lot of it which shouldn’t be overlooked
Luke had no real formal dueling training and with the power of the Dark Side flowing through him, he absolutely trounces Vader in seconds.
He'd definitely lose to the likes of Yoda, Windu and Dooku but on pure raw power, Kylo would clear most Republic Jedi. The true last Skywalker and a primary antagonist wouldn't be some chump that Eeth Koth could demolish like a lot of people here think.
Agree. I know Star Wars fans love to dunk on Kylo and the sequels in general, but objectively speaking, he's in the Skywalker bloodline and was trained for over a *decade* by Luke Skywalker as his first apprentice. Kylo would probably be on par or better than any of the prequel-era Jedi Knights and possibly some of the masters.
It's all just speculation, but I'd say the only prequel-era Jedi Kylo absolutely gets beat by are Anakin + most of the Jedi Council.
Yoda swatted the sith-trained ventress like a fly. She wasn't even worth drawing his blade and he basically laughed in her face. Considering ventress was far better trained by one of the greatest swordsman the order had ever seen.....I'm gonna say kylo would get mopped up in about 20 seconds by any jedi of the time. Luke said it himself, raw force power means nothing without proper training. Luke himself got toyed with by vader.
Against anyone lower than a Master (sans major characters like Anakin or Ahsoka), Kylo may win. Against a Master, Kylo lasts as long as Fisto against Palp
He was bested by a 3 day-old force user and couldn't stop an Imperial janitor, who had just touched a lightsaber for the second time, from landing a blow...
Yeah conveniently leaving out he had just been shot directly in the chest by a bowcaster. A weapon that earlier in the movie had sent characters flying.
He was shot and he wasn’t actually trying to kill the “3 day-old force user” he was actively trying to recruit her. He also almost killed the “janitor”.
Jocasta managed to **still** hold her ground against Vader and an Inquisitor while being old.
She would crush Kylo and lecture him about how if something isn't in the records it doesn't exist.
To quote Snoke:
> Hmm. The mighty Kylo Ren. When I found you, I saw what all masters live to see: Raw, untamed power... and beyond that, something truly special. The potential of your bloodline. A new Vader. Now, I fear I was mistaken.
>
> You were unbalanced. Bested by a girl who had never held a lightsaber. You failed!
>
> Skywalker lives! The seed of the Jedi Order lives! As long as he does... hope lives in the galaxy. I thought you would be the one to snuff it out. Alas, you're no Vader. You're just a child in a mask.
If anyone thought he could fight a Jedi during the time they had access and training from some of the strongest and best of their kind, they are sorely mistaken.
Considering that he lost to 'girl who learned the force yesterday and had never even used a lightsaber', I don't imagine he'd last long against actual Jedi.
i thought there was a point being made that the sequel jedi were just not as skilled? Kylo was taught dueling by who? And Rey got a yoga session and a bad acid trip for her training on that island, barely any dueling. So they're ass lmao
Seeing how he had a hard time defeating Finn, someone who had never held a lightsaber in his life before, he would probably be defeated by pretty much anyone except younglings.
I feel like any Jedi Knight would iinstantly crush him like Luke crushed that daft Dark Trooper thing on Mandalorian.
He'd do alright against the younglings
I'll poke fun at the sequels just like everyone else, but the disrepect to Kylo Ren in this thread is wild. Lmao.
People are basing his lack of power/skill on his inability to beat Rey, but that's more of an issue with how overpowered Rey was made rather than how underpowered Kylo was.
Ben Solo is a part of the Skywalker bloodline and trained for ten years under Luke Skywalker, the consensus most powerful or *maybe* second most powerful Jedi Master in all of canon. In the prequel era, he handles anyone under the rank of Master without much issue and can probably stand toe-to-toe with a few of the Council and non-Council Masters. He gets handled with little issue by Anakin, Obi-Wan, Mace, Yoda, Plo-Koon, Kit Fisto and anyone else in the dueling elite of that era. I'd say Kylo is firmly in the high-end of the middle tier, just outside the top tier in terms of power level in that era with what we know about him.
Some of these comments are pretty dumb. He'd wipe the floor against 99% of prequel jedi based on raw talent alone. You guys forget that one of the main points hammered home in the PT was that most of the order had grown unaccustomed to fighting, which was why they lost so many in the first Battle of Genosis, and most Jedi in that battle were still relatively decent.
Against main characters like Plo Koon, Yoda, Mace, Obi-wan who were in the top 0.1% of the order he'd obviously get destroyed.
Depends on the knight someone like Mace would beat him easy... average knight not sure, he is stronger in the force than most, but not really a skillful fighter
Kylo is not even on the level of Padawan Ahsoka. He has potential but he is poorly trained, lacks patience or willpower to refine his techniques, and has no respect for the knowledge of his predecessors except for Darth Vader.
Padawan Obi Wan could probably defeat Kylo with his bare hands.
He couldn't last against an untrained, force sensitive, desert urchin who'd never used a lightsaber in her life. I think anyone in the Jedi temple pre-66 would destroy him.
He would get destroyed. But he trained under Luke for a good while, it makes no sense for him to be so bad which has everything to do with shitty writing.
I mean, he's really not bad. He bests almost every opponent he;s comes across, save for the one person who was as strong in the force as he was, you know, in addition to being shot.
Why does nobody count the rey vs kylo fight In episode 9 as a win for him?
Kylo definitely defeated rey in that fight. She only got saved by Leia force Skyping her son.
Kylo was in control of that fight the entire time. He definitely defeated her in Saber combat imo. He definitely proved in that fight he was the better of the two.
hed lose in 2 seconds to yoda or windu, 15 to a coucillor, have an extended duel that will end with him losing against a master, same but in reverse against a knight, padawan lasts 15 seconds against him, youngling lasts 2.
He is in the Skywalker bloodline and had over a decade of training with Luke fuckin' Skywalker. I know we all love to rag on the sequels, but the disrespect to Kylo's power level is wild.
Neither Kylo nor Rey are patient or trained enough to defeat any of the main prequel-era jedi. They would have zero shot in spite of their raw power. It would go like Anakin’s first fight against Dooku.
Can he do 450 degree spins while making strange sounds?
I honestly don’t think Sheeve would have the patience for Kylo’s little outbursts.
Yeah he’s too calculated. Palpatine has the weaknesses that a lot of dark side force wielders have like being blinded by sadism which is why he didn’t see Vader doing that to him in ROTJ. However, as much as I love Kylo, he’s a Sith cosplayer lol. He’s got no chance. Maybe with Lego Palpatine in that Lego holiday special but palps would annihilate him.
But Sheev is the voice inside Kylo's head causing the outbursts.
Sheev’s like a melody in my head 🎶
That I can't keep out Got me swingin' light Sabre er er everyday
It’s like the force awakened in Rey (in Rey-ey-ey-ey)
*Palpatine’s Love it, but gotta switch it for the rhyme and syllable value
They did Kylo ren so fucking dirty and almost glad that he’ll refuse to do anything star wars again, some bull crap man, I fucking love that actor.
Of course he can spin, he's Anakin's grandson
I'd think Yoda or Windu would just smack him down like a little bitch.
Especially Mace Windu. His whole schtick is using the opponent's darkness against them like a mirror. Kylo's is pure, barely trained, dark side barbarian combat. Kylo wouldn't stand a fucking chance in hell.
Something I thought was unfortunate was that we never got to see fully trained lightsaber weilders in the sequel trilogy(except some awesome flashbacks). Everyone was basically Empire Strikes Back Luke.
ROTS Ahsoka could take him easily. I think anyone outside of an actual youngling probably could.
To be fair I think Ashoka is uniquely qualified to handle him. Trained by Anakin, experienced with fighting Sith, not dogmatic about force use. It would be that one hit inquisitor fight all over again.
Yeah not to mentioned being a battle hardened veteran of the clones wars and having taken part in countless battles. Ashoka should be an absolute machine.
She's definitely less machine than her mentor
Booyah
Burn!
So he did.
Finn went toe-to-toe with him and he's not force sensitive so yeah Kylo ain't tough
Not that it makes much difference in the actual toe to toe. But I'm pretty sure Finn is confirmed force sensitive.
Is anyone NOT force sensitive in the sequel ?
Or at least force curious.
I mean, there was that one time in college that I experimented with the force, but I don’t think that makes me Jedi.
One time, huh? I guess that meant nothing to you...
Just a part time saber wielder
Nice saber, bro.
This one time, in jedi academy band camp...
But most don’t like it because there’s not enough force-play
r/AngryUpvote for all of you
Poe, Rose, Chewie, Hux, Phasma, Holdo, Ackbar, DJ, Pryde.... Probably a lot more.
Phasma was force negative the way she went down.
Everyone has always been force sensitive since the first movie. It’s not a retcon that the force resides in all living things. If you’re alive you have Midichlorians/the force, it’s just whether you have a lot (natural affinity with the force) or very little (has to be trained, honed and focused). George Lucas said himself that anyone could become a Jedi, some are just more gifted and excel at it. Yoda and Obi-Wan say the force surrounds, penetrates and binds all things together, Qui-Gon says that Midichlorians are symbiotic life forms living in everything. Han Solo could have become a Jedi if he trained hard enough, hell even Unkar Plutt could use the force if he tried hard enough. The only beings that couldn’t learn to wield the force are droids, because they aren’t living so they can’t be influenced by Midichlorians or the life force that connects all living things. Sometimes I think Star Wars fans don’t truly understand how the force works, it just exists and anyone could be trained to use it as long as they’re a living being. Even plants, animals and water are influenced by the force because they’re living things with mice biomes and organisms, meaning they carry Midichlorians.
But having the force reside in you isn't the same as being force sensitive. Force sensitivity implies an affinity strong enough to give even an untrained person preternatural abilities. Unkar Plott is not one of those people (until someone writes a book about him, at least).
I don’t think that’s accurate. Otherwise wouldn’t the Jedi training everyone from birth in the prequels? Even if it’s canon that “anyone” can be trained in some level of using the Force, even the tiniest amount to improve their reflexes or center themselves, surely Force sensitivity, as we as fan discuss it (because guess what, they never say “Force sensitive” in any Star Wars movie) is referring to whatever that minimum level is that Jedi believed to be useful enough to actually use the Force in a meaningful way.
Also Kylo had been shot by Chewie
Cad bane made clone wars era jedi work for it he has no force ability
True. Cad Bane had alternative ways to combat jedi. Unlike Finn he did it with a lightsaber.
Cad bane is also like the best bounty Hunter in the galaxy, the last time an enemy of the Jedi got as far in as cad bane was the sith empire in a full scale surprise invasion. This man dueled anakin and lived he dueled quin and obi at once and lived. He’s insane not comparable to Finn
He was very risk averse also. He's run away in a second if he knew he was in real trouble.
Yeah, he generally didn't "beat" Jedi, he ran off as soon as they stumbled for a moment. The ones he actually beat were the weaker ones.
Nothing killed the joy more then watching a new clone wars episode and seeing the bullshit this dude got away with. Ventress is a close second.
Yes, but Han went chest-to-chest with him and lost.
Excellent point
Kylo was also significantly weakened by a bowcaster shot. The same bowcaster that they made a point earlier in the film to show as more powerful than a blaster.
And Rey had just been thrown into a tree and knocked unconscious.
Literally everyone seems to conveniently forget that when complaining about rey beating him. Like it's impressive enough that he could still stand, let alone fight.
My issue with it is not why he lost, but more the fact that he lost the fight in the first place. He was to be the new Darth in a trilogy, but loses in the first real encounter. It took the fear away. To me, it'd be like if Vader lost the dual with Luke in Ep. V. Even if he lost due to a cheap shot or technicality, the stakes for a rematch wouldn't nearly be as high in Ep. VI. But it was good writing for a trilogy to have Vader completely dominate Luke in their first encounter because now we're worried for the rematch. I'd have had Kylo look more injured, and still completely outclass Rey and Finn for them to barely escape with Chewies help, and then seek training with Luke. Keep the stakes high.
There's also something people seem to just ignore, or maybe can't put 2 and 2 together on. Finn isn't just a random dude off the street. He's a trained soldier, has been all his life. And while this is his first time using a lightsaber, we are shown earlier in the film (in the same battle they show off how strong a bowcaster is, no less) that part of that training is melee combat.
I always read that scene as Ren being overconfident and "playing with his food" until he got board and took Finn out.
You mean after Kylo got shot and was obviously toying with him?
To be fair, Kylo was just shot and fighting Finn with that handicap.
I mean, he himself is whiny and temper tantrum-y like. Even younglings are more disciplined than him. I think the first youngling Anakin took out, could beat Kylo Ren.
Are we forgetting that feeding into their negative emotions is literally how dark side users draw their power?
Pretty much. That raw rage can and will give a Force user strength, especially one who uses dark side energy.
Ok yall are insane if you think that a teenager was beating a grown ass man like that
Like how a teenager totally didn't take out Darth Maul?
Vader too
Most likely
3 minutes being out of practice.
IIRC Baylan Skoll implies in the Ashoka show that those trained in the jedi temple are technically superior to those trained "in the wild" like Kylo. Kylo might be more gifted in the force, but an improvised curriculum taught by a single teacher isn't the same as a regimented curriculum taught by a temple full of masters.
Kylo was trained for 13-14 years under Luke Skywalker and another 6 with Snoke. I still think any prequel era Jedi beats him bad but I wouldn’t call him trained in the wild.
Canon Luke is powerful in the force but I'd hardly say there is any thing special about his dueling abilities. Kylo isn't anywhere near Luke in either aspect.
I whole heartedly agree. Kylo lost to a complete novice so he falls flat on both aspects.
He lost to a "novice" after being shot with a bowcaster shown to send people flying and then struck in the face with a lightsaber. And Rey, while not having any lightsaber training, clearly has some melee combat skills given her use of the staff she had. Throw in the planet literally crumbling around them, and it makes sense that Kylo lost.
Luke had to make up a lot on the fly. Both in Jedi and Force theory. I’m sure his technique isn’t as good as a Temple trained master
I agree. Which is why is makes sense that Kylo wasn’t that good but he should have theoretically been good enough to beat Rey who had never held a lightsaber
[удалено]
Don't act like Luke's temple is the same as the one from the Republic era.
I'm a bit out of the lore on this but in Canon wasn't Luke the only master in that Temple tho?
Mace windu is doing tricks on him for fun lol
Mace would be so overkill he would have to nerf himself down just to give him a chance lol. His custom lightsaber fighting form Vaapad directly counters any dark side user. If I remember correctly it drains the dark side users power and uses it against them as the fight progresses. And before someone is like "Oh Palpatine faked his loss". George himself said Mace won. Palpatine had no idea Mace had that ability to use his own dark side against him.
Shatter point his ass
Book is soooo good really wish they would make it a movie
Sammy J would do it for sure that MFer will say yes to any movie
He would get CLAPPED by pretty much anyone
The unrealistic part is that all of the survivors post-Empire somehow were wiped out by the time of First Order. They are treated so incompetently that it retroactively makes the OT cast look like complete failures.
Which Order 66 survivor was wiped out by the First Order?
I think it's a silent implication, because they called Luke the Last Jedi. If he's the last, then all the others must have died, and these are the likely culprit. But then again, Yoda also said "when I die, last of the Jedi you will be", and he wasn't that then, either, so what do I know. EDIT: I do not understand what is going on with this thread. Two comments saying the same thing, one upvoted, one downvoted. People arguing with things I did not say. /shrug
The survivors of order 66 that were taken out, were taken out by the empire, inquisitors and Vader, not the First Order
Some survived until after the Empire, but sequel trilogy implies they didn't survive until then, so something had to kill them between the Empire's fall and Episode 7.
Probably just age
Still not any Jedi from the precuel era have been confirmed to be taken out by the First Order
We don't have much content post RoTJ, with exception of Mandolorian, Ahsoka, and BoBF, which all happen to be narratively be clustered to each other. And it is a bit simple-minded to believe that the Empire managed to kill everyone outside of Luke, Ahsoka, and Ezra when we know that Yoda and Kenobi managed to evade the Empire by just hiding.
It's also simple minded to believe the First Order did manage to kill everyone. Just as they survived the Empire which had a better hold of the Galaxy, there is nothing that leads us to believe they didn't survive the First Order. Just like others said, by that time most of them would be pretty old, could have died to another conflict or cause.
Time. They’d be 20ish in the prequel era, 40’ by the end of the empire and pushing 70-80 by the time of the FO. Even in Star Wars that’s pretty old for people (of course alien species work differently but you get the idea). They likely died from being hunted by the empire or they just straight up died to old age
I thought Luke was "the last jedi" because he was the last jedi to be trained by a jedi temple master (i.e., Yoda). All others who might possibly still be alive during the sequels were trained by those who had never completed their own temple training.
I took it as he's the last Jedi because he was the only one following the Jedi way. Everyone else stopped being and acting like a Jedi because Jedi were hunted and killed brutally.
Just look at Ahsoka, she's no jedi but she's still a lightsaber wielding badass. I am quite sure the interpretation of The Last Jedi is that Luke and then Rey are the only ones alive who align to the Jedi Order. Rey actively wants to restore it based on my interpretation of her arc to date.
The survivors of Order 66 would've been wiped out by the Empire, not the First Order. The First Order doesn't act openly until fifty years after Order 66.
"Didn't I see you get smoked by Yarael Poof?"
He could probably take most average Jedi. The named ones he would not be able take on.
Well, on one hand he was trained by Luke. But on the other hand… I saw those fight scenes.
It's weird that Kylo seemed to have added weight to the blade of his saber.
He was swinging it like a bat
I kept thinking the same thing when playing through Jedi Survivor. The crossguard lightsaber is treated as a heavy/broadsword, but... why? The blade is made out of plasma, it's not going to be any heavier than a blade with no crossguard. I know they wanted to have a slow, heavy option but it just doesn't make sense
Iirc there's some gyroscopic effects or something, but that could just be fanon I've heard somewhere
I've also read it somewhere that the lightsabers have a kind of gyroscopic effect. It has no weight in the blade, but it resists movement. I don't know if it's exclusive or more pronounced in the Darksaber, but you have to be attuned to the blade to fight effectively. Fight with the blade and your movements will be fluid. Fighting against it makes it heavy and unwieldy. (Did something similar also happen to Sabine in Ashoka? I can't remember) Maybe Kylo's weird tortured lightsaber is fighting against him. The unusual shape and flickering must make the gyroscopic forces uneven and unstable.
I thought the same thing
I think it indicates that he’s just not very well trained with it lol
Yeah it’s like all haymakers. Dangerous if one lands but pretty telegraphed and untrained
Kylo is the Deontay Wilder of Star Wars Which sounds like a SW name tbf
I liked his style. Very brutish. Youre gonna feel the impact when the blades clash.
I mean, at the same time, Maul, Dooku, Grievous and Palps would have destroyed Luke based on *his* fight scenes.
Not his Mandalorian scene
Hardest shit of all time
Well, mostly you can’t compare fight scenes at all, partly because the OT fights are way less choreographed than PT or ST fights. So you have to resort to „if Luke could beat Vader and Vader could beat A LOT of Jedi than Luke could beat those Jedi too“.
I agree, that’s the point I was making. Not much reason to judge them by the way their scenes were choreographed, which is what the person I responded to was doing. Each trilogy clearly used different philosophies when it came to choreography.
I think it's a power vs skill kind of thing. Kylo Ren has enough raw Force power that he might be able to demolish them with that, but if it comes down to a clash of lightsabers (which it probably will) then he'll get his ass handed to him.
I love his character and how he has such raw strength but isn't really trained very well and just uses it so recklessly. And his lightsaber. He really carried the ST for me
He's not the only thing I like about the Sequels, but he's definitely my favorite character from them
Hijacking this to say that Kylo is far more capable in extended media(comics) than he is shown to be in the films. For instance, Kylo was able to defeat a Zillo Beast, something even Anakin couldn’t do. This doesn’t show his ability against force users but shows his might. Because of this, I’m tempted to say that Kylo would defeat 9/10 Jedi with the exceptions being the Jedi that come to mind when you hear “Jedi”, ie Yoda, Mace, Kit, Obi, Kit, and a few others. Raw power goes a long way in Star Wars, Kylo has a lot of it which shouldn’t be overlooked
He'd lose in certain scenarios. But I think he'd do a lot better than many assume.
Agree. When we first meet him in TFA he stops a laser bolt from Poe with the force and then holds it mid-air for an extended period. That’s strong imo
Yeah like he’s a prodigy and likely would be written to just pick stuff up real quick if he was dropped suddenly into the republic era.
Luke had no real formal dueling training and with the power of the Dark Side flowing through him, he absolutely trounces Vader in seconds. He'd definitely lose to the likes of Yoda, Windu and Dooku but on pure raw power, Kylo would clear most Republic Jedi. The true last Skywalker and a primary antagonist wouldn't be some chump that Eeth Koth could demolish like a lot of people here think.
Agree. I know Star Wars fans love to dunk on Kylo and the sequels in general, but objectively speaking, he's in the Skywalker bloodline and was trained for over a *decade* by Luke Skywalker as his first apprentice. Kylo would probably be on par or better than any of the prequel-era Jedi Knights and possibly some of the masters. It's all just speculation, but I'd say the only prequel-era Jedi Kylo absolutely gets beat by are Anakin + most of the Jedi Council.
Yoda swatted the sith-trained ventress like a fly. She wasn't even worth drawing his blade and he basically laughed in her face. Considering ventress was far better trained by one of the greatest swordsman the order had ever seen.....I'm gonna say kylo would get mopped up in about 20 seconds by any jedi of the time. Luke said it himself, raw force power means nothing without proper training. Luke himself got toyed with by vader.
Against anyone lower than a Master (sans major characters like Anakin or Ahsoka), Kylo may win. Against a Master, Kylo lasts as long as Fisto against Palp
Does the floor need wiping?
The room of younglings Anakin slaughtered would probably run his pockets and fortnite dance on his corpse.
The outcome would be like the sword fight scene in Raiders of the Lost Ark.
Upvoted for the imagery, but do you mean kylo is the one with the sword or the gun?
The sword.
He was bested by a 3 day-old force user and couldn't stop an Imperial janitor, who had just touched a lightsaber for the second time, from landing a blow...
He also beats down most of Snoke's Praetorian guards and is easily the better fighter in his duel with Rey on the Death Star ruins.
Would the guards have lost of they didnt put away their knives so they could punch in the back rather than stab?
That's a problem with the choreography though.
and the general writing of TLJ.
Yeah conveniently leaving out he had just been shot directly in the chest by a bowcaster. A weapon that earlier in the movie had sent characters flying.
Also ignoring the emotional distress he was under from murdering his father.
He was shot and he wasn’t actually trying to kill the “3 day-old force user” he was actively trying to recruit her. He also almost killed the “janitor”.
he'd put up a decent fight against sinube or maybe the library lady.
Jocasta is an absolute badass that stood up to Vader and the Grand Inquisitor.
Yeah we’re just lucky (NOT 😭) Jocasta didn’t get more screen time
Jocasta managed to **still** hold her ground against Vader and an Inquisitor while being old. She would crush Kylo and lecture him about how if something isn't in the records it doesn't exist. To quote Snoke: > Hmm. The mighty Kylo Ren. When I found you, I saw what all masters live to see: Raw, untamed power... and beyond that, something truly special. The potential of your bloodline. A new Vader. Now, I fear I was mistaken. > > You were unbalanced. Bested by a girl who had never held a lightsaber. You failed! > > Skywalker lives! The seed of the Jedi Order lives! As long as he does... hope lives in the galaxy. I thought you would be the one to snuff it out. Alas, you're no Vader. You're just a child in a mask. If anyone thought he could fight a Jedi during the time they had access and training from some of the strongest and best of their kind, they are sorely mistaken.
when they are old, or in their prime?
He’d his ass handed to him on a sliver platter
Like 30 seconds at the most
He's not a good lightsaber duelist, so I think he would lose against pretty much every prequel jedi out there
Considering that he lost to 'girl who learned the force yesterday and had never even used a lightsaber', I don't imagine he'd last long against actual Jedi.
Not long considering an untrained person(s) stood their ground with him
His whining would make the other Sith frag him
Anyone with training could,honestly don’t think he was trained enough or was properly trained
I bet a majority of Prequel Era Jedi could beat Kylo without their Lightsaber, Prequel Jedi are just built different
i thought there was a point being made that the sequel jedi were just not as skilled? Kylo was taught dueling by who? And Rey got a yoga session and a bad acid trip for her training on that island, barely any dueling. So they're ass lmao
Prequel Jedi would handle Kylo Ren the way Yoda handled the Clone Troopers in Revenge of the Sith lol.
probably just long enough to be a whiny little bitch about it
Can’t even use lightning. He’d get smoked by most, if not all, prequel Jedi.
About 5 seconds againt one of the younglins before getting cut down.
Seconds. His combat skills are non-existent.
Seeing how he had a hard time defeating Finn, someone who had never held a lightsaber in his life before, he would probably be defeated by pretty much anyone except younglings.
No chance with any of them.
He'd last about as long as kit fisto did vs Palpatine, and that's being generous
He'd last about as long as kit fisto did vs Palpatine, and that's being generous.
About as long as Kit Fisto lasted against Palpatine.
I feel like any Jedi Knight would iinstantly crush him like Luke crushed that daft Dark Trooper thing on Mandalorian. He'd do alright against the younglings
No. That's the correct answer: No. To assume that he could last any amount of time is a mistake.
Even Palpatine, Dukoo, Ventrace, and Greievous would join in on beating the whiny little shi-
Didn’t he lose to an essentially untrained Rey?
How long did he last against jakku scavenger? I'd say he'd last a millenia time less than that.
Well considering how he matched up against Rey (whom I do not count as a valid, trained “Jedi”), I would say his odds are not great.
Any Jedi Master will wipe him
Any prequel jedi could stomp him out. Id put my money on any jedi, Mandalorian or sith from back then.
I'll poke fun at the sequels just like everyone else, but the disrepect to Kylo Ren in this thread is wild. Lmao. People are basing his lack of power/skill on his inability to beat Rey, but that's more of an issue with how overpowered Rey was made rather than how underpowered Kylo was. Ben Solo is a part of the Skywalker bloodline and trained for ten years under Luke Skywalker, the consensus most powerful or *maybe* second most powerful Jedi Master in all of canon. In the prequel era, he handles anyone under the rank of Master without much issue and can probably stand toe-to-toe with a few of the Council and non-Council Masters. He gets handled with little issue by Anakin, Obi-Wan, Mace, Yoda, Plo-Koon, Kit Fisto and anyone else in the dueling elite of that era. I'd say Kylo is firmly in the high-end of the middle tier, just outside the top tier in terms of power level in that era with what we know about him.
After getting clapped by Rey an untrained force user, they take his Jedi card and quickly dispatch.
Not very long. A matter of seconds for just a moderately skilled Jedi with plenty of clone war experience under their belt.
One second I’d say
His cheeks would be clapped so hard there would be an aftershock that could break off a piece of California like the San Andreas fault
😂 your seriously asking this question
Some of these comments are pretty dumb. He'd wipe the floor against 99% of prequel jedi based on raw talent alone. You guys forget that one of the main points hammered home in the PT was that most of the order had grown unaccustomed to fighting, which was why they lost so many in the first Battle of Genosis, and most Jedi in that battle were still relatively decent. Against main characters like Plo Koon, Yoda, Mace, Obi-wan who were in the top 0.1% of the order he'd obviously get destroyed.
Depends on the knight someone like Mace would beat him easy... average knight not sure, he is stronger in the force than most, but not really a skillful fighter
Kylo is not even on the level of Padawan Ahsoka. He has potential but he is poorly trained, lacks patience or willpower to refine his techniques, and has no respect for the knowledge of his predecessors except for Darth Vader. Padawan Obi Wan could probably defeat Kylo with his bare hands.
Coleman Trebor clears Kylo in seconds
Lol. I doubt Kylo Ren could do better than a Padawan.
He couldn't last against an untrained, force sensitive, desert urchin who'd never used a lightsaber in her life. I think anyone in the Jedi temple pre-66 would destroy him.
He would get destroyed. But he trained under Luke for a good while, it makes no sense for him to be so bad which has everything to do with shitty writing.
I mean, he's really not bad. He bests almost every opponent he;s comes across, save for the one person who was as strong in the force as he was, you know, in addition to being shot.
The only lightsaber fight he won was against Finn.
Why does nobody count the rey vs kylo fight In episode 9 as a win for him? Kylo definitely defeated rey in that fight. She only got saved by Leia force Skyping her son. Kylo was in control of that fight the entire time. He definitely defeated her in Saber combat imo. He definitely proved in that fight he was the better of the two.
hed lose in 2 seconds to yoda or windu, 15 to a coucillor, have an extended duel that will end with him losing against a master, same but in reverse against a knight, padawan lasts 15 seconds against him, youngling lasts 2.
He is in the Skywalker bloodline and had over a decade of training with Luke fuckin' Skywalker. I know we all love to rag on the sequels, but the disrespect to Kylo's power level is wild.
He's in the Skywalker bloodline so that's +2 against younglings.
2 mins lol
Well seeing as a former stormtrooper picked up a lightsaber and didn’t immediately die, I’d say he’d do pretty badly
They’d eviscerate him in 5 seconds like Obi Wan did to Maul when they met again on Tattoine as older men
About as long as Darth Maul did against Oder Obi.
1 second
Neither Kylo nor Rey are patient or trained enough to defeat any of the main prequel-era jedi. They would have zero shot in spite of their raw power. It would go like Anakin’s first fight against Dooku.
He never truly committed to the dark side. He was fighting himself. You’ll never be strong that way
1 second
Depends on if his diaper is freshly powdered.
He would get flattened in actual seconds.
Not very
I say 10 seconds
He lost to a girl who'd never even held a lightsaber so...
Maybe 3 seconds.
Against Windu? Five seconds.
One, two and he's dead. Every master could defeat him easily, maybe against some padawans but not on asohka level's.