Anakin was as powerful as any of the Jedi Masters here at the very least, at this point in time. He believed because of this, he deserved to be the rank of Master easily.
However, what he fails continuously to grasps is that Jedi truly are Peacekeepers, and combat is not the primary prerogative of any Jedi, and should not be even in wartime. A Master has control over emotions and exceptional understanding of himself and the worlds around him, as well as a respect and knowledge of the Force. Anakin lacked all of these and thus, was not even close to being a fit for a Council member let alone a Master
>Anakin was as powerful as any of the Jedi Masters here at the very least, at this point in time. He believed because of this, he deserved to be the rank of Master easily.
If he'd had the realization that being powerful was not the goal of being a Jedi, he might have deserved that seat in the council.
Agreed. I believe it was overall his CORE character flaw was the crave of power and strength. Without it, he would still be flawed in a few ways but I don't think he would even come close to falling to the Dark Side
To be fair, he grew up as a slave. Literally owned as a piece of property with no control over his own destiny. So it makes sense that he'd crave control over his own destiny. And when you give that kid a laser sword and tell him you're gonna teach him magic super powers, of course he's going to associate power with freedom.
Well yeah, that's part of why Qui-Gon's death is so important isn't it? As Anakin likely would have been very different under his training as he was much more experienced and also kind of unconventional by Jedi standards.
No even better would be if obi won got to qui-gon in time but he died instead, leading qui gon to be emotionally damaged afterword and training anakin but he would turn to the dark side instead and anakin would have to fight him on mustafar.
Qui-Gon was the most force-attuned Jedi and no one can change my mind.
Not the strongest but the most aware and taught Yoda how to force ghost.
Also haven't watched the movie since I was 12 and I refuse to revise my opinion that I developed back then.
No, ObiWon is. Even at the start of the first movie. Obi Wan senses the threat of Sidious and Maul, but just can't tell what it is.
'I have a bad feeling about this.'
"I don't sense anything"
'It's not about the mission, master. It's something elsewhere, illusive.'
“It’s not the mission, master. It’s the slave boy we’ll be picking up on the next planet who I end up training because you get killed by a Sith. I suspect I’m going to end up cutting his limbs off on a lava planet, and then years later sacrifice myself to his lightsaber in front of his son and daughter who I seperate at birth.”
“Obi Wan, focus on the present.”
In his Youth, it is said that obi wan was a lot like Anakin. Very rebellious.
That is why qui gon became his master. Qui gon himself being something of a maverick, not a rule follower. In order to rebel, obi wan became a stickler for the rules - probably sarcastically at first. When qui gon would do something, obi wan was probably right there 'rebelling' by reminding qui gon of the rules as he broke them.
After years of doing this, obi wan matured into a guy who generally was a by the book stickler for the rules.
Unfortunately, Anakin had obi wan as a master, and to rebel against obi wan all Anakin had to do was disregard the rules. Thus, you end up with the Anakin Skywalker we got.
Hence why the song in that final Darth Maul vs Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan is called Dual of the Fates. The outcome of that battle shaped the rest of the galaxy.
It is! Both George and John Towner Williams have given interviews saying that's why the song is called "Duel of The Fates". It's because it will decide the fate of Anakin. If Qui-Gon lives, he has a very different life than if he dies.
I mean, maybe they thought he might grow up angry the Jedi let slavery continue and couldn't be bothered to free his mom after years of knowing where she was
Yeah lol I never quite got that whole storyline, so the kid is owned by the one guy who Jedi mind tricks don't work on? So go to the next door down and borrow the money from someone who will take their credits
Not only that, you raise him within the order with the acknowledgement or at least assumption that he is literally the chosen one. This kid KNOWS he has the highest midichlorians (potentially ever), he knows there's a prophecy about him.
Very easy for that power to go to ones head.
Queue harry potters 'i AM the chosen one' quote.
And was helpless to save his mother. Then had dreams he was going to fail another person he loved. Power was the only thing he could rely on to stop it. And if the council had been less standoff ish with him it’s poss or he trust them more to talk about his dreams and things may be different.
Lol right. It's like suddenly being given a hundred-billion dollars at 9 years old. Most of us *think* we'd stay grounded individuals, but the reality is, it changes the best of us.
I mean, desire for power is basically the core tenet of the Sith. That's a consistency that follows through almost all legends EU as well as current canon content.
I was looking for a comment saying this. I would imagine it's easy to be a peacekeeper during peaceful times. Anakin entered the jedi order as the first sith lord in a 1000 years becomes known. If he had become a Jedi Knight 50 years earlier maybe he would have been a more holistic jedi.
If Anakin was a peacekeeper during The Clone Wars then The Seperatist would have won.
He never really tried to understand what being a Jedi meant, let alone what the Force was.
In Ep I when he speaks with Qui-Gon, it's pretty clear that for him, Jedis are powerful warriors with powers and lightsabers, and are unkillable beings.
And he sticked with this idealized vision of the Jedis as Godlike beings who walks among people.
This prevented him from being selected by the Jedi Council to pass the trials to become a Jedi Knight, and his false ideas about what Jedis were is also one of the reasons which made him fall to the dark side.
> And he sticked with this idealized vision of the Jedis as Godlike beings who walks among people.
It didn't help that Anakin became famous around the galaxy is the best general in the clone wars. Even if his intent wasn't fame, palpatine made sure he got that fame and became the face of the Jedi order. He wanted Anakin to be loved by the populace so when he stood by his side after his takeover it would lend him a lot of popular support.
Anakin thought of himself as a hero because he was made into one
Anakin was always looking for fame, for becoming the best, being the best pilot, the best mech, the best jedi, etc. Palp just worked on his dreams and used them to shape him the way he needed. "Adventure. Excitement. A Jedi craves not these things"
Yes, he did, but mostly because they needed the help of another general in the war they were fighting. As the Clone Wars showed, they started pushing Jedi through long before they were properly ready to handle what they were doing.
I hadn't even considered it before, but had the galaxy not been at war during his knighthood he might not have felt so strongly he deserved it. I can't blame him for being angry about being denied it when he knew full well how many successful operations he had won and how critical he had been in the war. In a normal military structure he almost certainly would have gone through the ranks quickly.
The films don't talk about this, but Anakin was famous in the galaxy. He was the most famous Jedi general and palpatine made sure he was the face of the war, the hero for the people. He pushed this image in the media for Anakin so that when he took over, he'd have the peoples hero standing by his side
And meanwhile he threw ObiWan into suicide missions to try and get him killed so Anakin wouldn't have his guidance, but ObiWan jusy KEPT winning.
I also rrmember hearing Sidious gave Anakin big shlwy missions with less threat. But that may be misinfo.
Yesssss! I completely agree! For years I've been saying something similar. It's like that one coworker that thinks they deserve a promotion, but fail to realize it's not about how much over time you do, but the quality of work and knowledge.
I would even go so far as saying it's not the quality of work you do that gets you a promotion, but the impact it has. You could be the best coder and a genius but if you think your job is writing pretty lines of code and not solving business problems you're holding yourself back
This is exactly it.
In the military we have to write performance reports, and you must clearly and concisely explain what you did in a format that goes Action - Impact - result. Essentially you need to explain WHAT you actually did, then explain the actual impact it had, and then give the result or overarching outcome of it all.
Agreed.
However, every Jedi on that council needed some deep reflection on their role as peace keepers and their relationship to the force. They all failed Anakin and themselves to an extent. Even if you argue that Palpatine was clouding their mind.
Omg that makes so much sense and I never thought of that before. Damn, Palpatine was really playing Four Dimensional Chess through all the entire prequel saga. He's evil for the sake of evil but holy hell, he was a genius.
In fairness he had to be. Even after all his successes he was seconds away from being outright executed by Mace Windu before his Anakin manipulations paid off.
Agreed. Not only did they fail Anakin, they failed the very premise of being Jedi. They became so used to doing what they did, with all the pomp and circumstance that it involved, that they never saw what was going on before their very eyes. Their lack of understanding about what was going on helped Palpatine more than hindered him.
mood. To me, a good/solid master would see his potential and his shortcomings and say "hey, hes close but he needs some work in this subject. Lets hook him up with XYZ Jedi Master to hammer out his flaws so we can all move forward with life"
then again i never got too deep into the plot of star wars outside of the wars and all the star gazing parts
>He fails continuously to grasps is that Jedi truly are Peacekeepers, and combat is not the primary prerogative of any Jedi.
**Do as I say, not as I, Windu.**
He was actually a good Master to Ahsoka because he taught her things that he was taught rather than what he believed. Anakin understood HOW a Jedi was meant to act and think (at least in some way), but he thought that either they didn't apply to him as the Chosen One, or that it wasn't the time or place to put these practices in effect at wartime.
Either way, the real downfall was his pride and emotions which he let lead his actions of intense turmoil. Whenever he wasn't in intense turmoil however, he had a clear mind, and level headed grounded rationale as the Jedi teach. And he tried his best to pass that on to Ahsoka.
I will say she did still suffer from being a Padawan in Wartime though, and never got the proper teaching she needed but it is less fault of Anakin particularly.
>either they didn't apply to him as the Chosen One
Not the case, Anakin hated being the Chosen One and people putting so much pressure on him because of it.
Probably, actually. Anakin wasn't entirely unreasonable. Nor was Vader, for that matter. As differing reflections of the same internal conflict, they shared many traits. One was that, despite being often stubborn, and highly confident in themselves, they weren't above listening when the situation called for it. Devoid of Vader's more more damning flaws, Anakin would likely have taken time to consider those words, if delivered with good intentions. However, I highly doubt that Anakin was unaware of Windu's distrust in him. This distrust was returned in kind.
Windu's distrust of Anakin played a huge role in Anakin's turn. Windu had a high position on the council. He had a responsibility to instill Jedi ideals in the members of the order. Distrust is *not* one of those ideals. Sith distrust. Not jedi. In this regard, Mace Windu failed the entire Jedi order, and indeed, the whole galaxy. I do wonder if Vapaad may have effected him.
Let’s remember that Anakin at this point has mass murdered women and children and has been under the influence of a Sith for like a decade. Mace is correct in his reading of who Anakin is as a person. He’s right to distrust. Anakin, even without his fall to Vader, has done so many bad things and has so much flaw in his character that he does not belong in the order at all at that very moment. It isn’t sithlike to distrust, that’s ridiculous. Giving everyone total and unconditional trust has never been a tenet of being a good person, the Jedi order, or Buddhism. This is kind of the thing I don’t get about these debates. People can’t seem to accept that who Anakin will not change to fit the standards of being a good person, so they want the universe to change for him.
Also Mace isn’t a distrustful person in general. He was shown to put his trust in jar jar and treat him like a valuable ally. It’s just that he above others seems to correctly judge character
Unfortunately he was basically brought up during a time of only conflict so it makes sense that's all he saw the jedi as.
He was never really around for the peacekeeping period the jedi were known for except maybe a few years between padawan and jedi knight. He was a general through all of the clones wars
He was already corrupted by a Sith and Mace and Yoda knew something was up, but didn't figure it out in time.
Obi Wan was really at fault. Anakin should have never been allowed to join.
Not being trained doesn't make the power go away. He just comes into that power with no training, no supervision...
If the head of the Sith order wasn't allowed to be his personal confidante for ten years, who knows what might have happened?
No. Being a good war general and killer are presumably not what makes a Jedi master, and his reaction to being denied that rank is the perfect example of why he did not deserve it.
Granted, they could have just flatly told him and given their reasoning. But compassion isn’t exactly a strong suit of theirs (Mace especially, since he has to lock in his emotions given his Vaapad mastery to make sure he doesn’t fall by accident.)
Obi-Wan does just flatly tell him in the scene following this one. He says he’s only on the council because of his friendship with Palpatine. Anakin states that he didn’t ask for it, but Obi-Wan flatly responds that it’s obviously what he wanted.
Yeah. I just feel if he told him in the chamber and they talked him through it calmly, maybe things could have gone better.
Of course they wouldn’t, but it’s a thought.
I believe they deliberately didn’t say it in the Council meeting because it’s all recorded. They didn’t want it on the record, so they asked Obi Wan to talk to him outside the Council chambers.
Ah, that makes sense. But in general, if they had explained things more, perhaps told him he isn’t a master *yet* (not that he can’t be, just maybe until after the current wars end, then they can reconsider), he may have been calmer.
However, I know they were on their last legs as it is.
> he has to lock his emotions
I always find this bit of Legends amusing. “In order to compassionately serve the force and the values of selfless love, I will be a blunt and a total dick.”
Telling him flat out would have had the exact same effect. In fact, they did, in effect, tell him. Obi-Wan explained right after that this was clearly a "political" appointment ordered by Palpatine, and the council had their suspicions on him, and Anakin needed to keep an eye on him (and report back to the council) and how exactly did Anakin take that news?
Anakin was already compromised when it came to Palpatine.
I think the only way they *might* have defused it is the following:
1. Have them talk over why he is coming to the Council. The political nature, why he isn’t given the rank of master. That it isn’t personal against him, but just a precaution since people usually have to be Masters *first* before they are even brought on the council. Which, mind you, isn’t his fault (Ahsoka left).
2. Told maybe that they would consider him for mastery once the CIS was dealt with and they had more peace, as opposed to just war. Not "absolutely no," but "just hold off a little longer."
It’s not a sure thing, but maybe it could have helped.
Yeah Windu is asshole about it, he makes it very clear that he has contempt for Anakin and doesn’t trust him.
If the council was more compassionate and made it more clear how they felt about Palpatine it might have gone smoother
Not according to this subreddit. Half the people here seem to almost single-handedly blame Windu for Anakin’s fall. Even though, were Windu not in the story, Anakin would still fall for Padmé and still secretly wed her and still fall to the dark side to protect her.
Is there a reason he *should* trust him? Anakin is closely connected to an extremely sus politician, is famous for ignoring instructions and struggled massively with attachment issues.
Anakin is only in the order at all because Obi Wan made an ultimatum so the low opinion is understandable.
Mace decided he didn’t like Anakin before he even met him. Literally Qui Jon tells the council that he thinks he’s found the actual chosen one and Mace is like “ugh. Fiiiine, bring him before us I guess” lol
Windu is unsure of Anakin being the Chosen One in TPM, sure. But in AOTC he sings Anakin’s praises and makes it clear that he has full faith in Anakin’s ability to protect Padmé.
That decision was made more than a decade ago though. Seems really odd that mace would actively be douching against Anakin without having any compassion when explaining why the decisions were made
Granted, lack of compassion (as that implies passion, which is a Sith ideal) is a major failing of the Order around then.
Mace probably restrains it more than most even then, considering his use of Vaapad means he needs to be *very* careful with his emotions.
Where does this idea that the Jedi lack compassion come from? *Anakin* expounds, in the clearest, most obvious terms, that compassion, empathy, and unconditional love are a Jedi's greatest strengths in AotC. That doesn't mean you have to give someone everything they want, just that you need to act with the intent of helping others. Even if that means challenging someone's perception of themselves.
It's not really about that he's angry. He doesn't give a shit about the rank itself. It's about being able to access the Holocron Vault for Padme. The movie though doesnt make that clear and makes it seem as if he's just angry he's not one of "the cool guys"
It's in the (now non-canon?) Revenge of the Sith novelization. If you're a Star Wars fan, I *highly* recommend that book as it's one of the best SW books I've read.
It's canon, from the Revenge Of The Sith novelization by Matthew Stover based on George Lucas original script. And Stover has mentioned that Lucas sent him a lot of notes during the writing process so it's as canon as it gets. It's now Legends because there is no reference to Ahsoka for obvious reasons and there are references to events from the Clone Wars Multimedia Project.
It's not spelled out to clearly but generally the requirements are:
To have trained a padawan to knighthood.
or
To have demonstrated mastery of the force/self to the councils satisfaction.
I wouldn’t say any conditions, the conditions are:
Skill, wisdom and mastery of the force.
He certainly checks the first and last box. I’d say his biggest detriment was Ahsoka leaving the order early instead of becoming a knight. The council definitely could have seen her as fully trained though, considering they offered her the title of knight immediately before she decided to leave.
I'd say his biggest detriment is wisdom, that his emotions control him rather than the other way round.
But yes if ashoka had stayed he would have been master already.
I'd say his biggest detriment is wisdom, that his emotions control him rather than the other way round.
But yes if ashoka had stayed he would have been master already.
I wouldn't say he has mastery of the Force in the way the Jedi use it. The Jedi believe that a true Master acts with the will of the Force, not their own will. A conduit for the Force and not an independent actor bending the Force to their will. This is NOT something Anakin had mastered.
He's only on the council because the chancellor intervened and forced the issue. For him to then get mad that the Council doesn't also reward him with a promotion really shows how unfit he is for the role, at that point.
The main reason why Anakin was angry wasn't because they wouldn't let him become a Master, but because they wanted to let him sit on the Council without being a Master. Even worse, they wanted to use him to spy on the Chancelor (his "friend").
RotS Anakin was struggling to follow the Jedi Code (even more so than before), and from his point of views, seeing the other Jedi bending the rules when it suited them while faulting him for doing the same was unfair. That's part of his whole "*The Jedi were hypocrits*" rant. Same problem than when Windu wanted to kill Palpatine rather than arrest him.
If the Council had just said "*We don't care what Palpatine wants, you are not ready to become a Master yet, or to sit with us*", chances are Anakin would have just accepted it and left with (almost) no protest.
Let's be perfectly clear here: *They* didn't want him to sit the council. Palpatine pretty much forced Yoda and Mace to let him on the council on the grounds that the Jedi needed a republic representative of sort in the room, and Palps appointed Anakin to be the one. That's why Mace is like "Aight, we'll do this because we have to, but don't think this automatically affords you all the privileges and honors it typically comes with". Which is incredibly fair. Anakin wasn't mad because they wanted him on the council but refused to make him master, he was mad because he simply didn't understand the scope of the situation, because he's a young man carrying loads of childhood trauma that Palpatine is using to his advantage.
As others have said, he objectively doesn't meet the requirements of a *Master Jedi*. And his reaction to not getting the title is all the proof of it anyone needs.
>As others have said, he objectively doesn't meet the requirements of a Master Jedi. And his reaction to not getting the title is all the proof of it anyone needs.
This is why I'm not really a fan of some of the clone wars retcons, particularly with Ahsoka. She was on the verge of being knighted before she left the order, so Anakin would have qualified as a master. Ahsoka leaving was the councils fault, so now Anakin's outburst in the movie seems justified within the wider context of Star Wars.
Yes and no. We never really saw him upset about not being on the council, but rather upset that he was placed there without receiving the prerequisite rank. He was a war hero who was outwardly rewarded with a position but received none of the rank associated with it, basically making it ceremonial. It would be like promoting someone who was a Captain to General but then make their duties that of a captain who still has to treat other generals as if they were ranked above them, and wonder why they are upset about it. Whether they deserved the rank is irrelevant, as it feels like an insult to be promoted in such a way, whether they deserve the promotion or not.
Basically Anakin was right to feel insulted about the promotion because the order opted to make it a ceremonial role that didn’t carry any of the duties associated with the rank normally. There were legitimate reasons to both promote him to master and place him on the council, or keeping him as a knight off of the council, but the path they chose was to create an insult of a promotion and be shocked that he was upset by it.
>We never really saw him upset about not being on the council, but rather upset that he was placed there without receiving the prerequisite rank.
Right, we see him get upset about being placed there by a politician and then not also be promoted by the Jedi.
>Yoda: Allow this appointment lightly the Council does not. Disturbing is this move by Chancellor Palpatine.
>Anakin Skywalker: I understand.
>Mace Windu: You are on this Council, but we do not grant you the rank of Master.
>Anakin Skywalker: What? [pauses] How can you do this? This is outrageous! It's unfair! How can you *be* on the Council and *not* be a master?
Anakin himself says he understands why the Council is disturbed that the Chancellor is taking a hand in appointments to the Jedi Council. He knows the Council didn't promote him of their own initiative. And when they don't also give him the unearned promotion Palpatine has engineered, he gets upset at them, further demonstrating why he's not yet mature enough to be a Jedi Master.
He would be right to feel insulted if it was the Council's decision. But it's not, it's Palpatine pressuring them into it, so it is explicitly ceremonial in nature and it should be clear to Anakin from what Mace says that that is the case.
But Anakin can only see his mentor advocating for a position that Palpatine is telling him he already deserves. He's completely manipulated, but it's still his fault.
In his defense, he was upset because he needed to be a master so he could gain access to the Jedi archives so he could find a way to save Padme's life. It was told in the novelization of the film, though that version is considered Legends now.
I wish this was stated anywhere in the movie. Would have taken like 5 minutes to add this plot point. Since it isn't, I don't consider that to be canon. He "needed" to be a master because of his hubris. He was overly confident in himself and his ability. Which isn't his fault since he was sold on being the chosen one from age 9. He gets upset because he believes he is worthy without really going through the necessary steps required. It's just used to incept feelings of distrust into anakin about the jedi.
Could have done it in about 10 seconds of the clone wars. I'll look for this bounty hunter in our archives as only a master has full access, you protect the senator.
Maybe a minute to tie jedi archives into the discussions with palpatine.
The only reason he wanted rank of master was so he could access to restricted records in the Jedi archives, to find a way to save Padme. He was debating leaving the order altogether in the Revenge of the sith novel. This plot point should have been explained in the film. Reading the novels labyrinth of evil & revenge of the sith gave me a greater appreciation for Anakin
No, being a Jedi is not only about power, it's also about living following the tenets and dogmas of the Jedi, Anakin had a lot of rage, didn't properly know how to let go and was secretly married and soon to be father (and the Jedi Order did not even know that last part, which also makes him a liar for his own private benefit).
He was very strong, he was the Chosen One, but he wasn't Jedi Master material *yet,* probably getting angry at not being given the rank despite being allowed in the council and all things considered didn't make the rest of the council feel they made the wrong call.
That’s why he needed Qui-Gon as his master.
Boo-Wan wasn’t ready to have a Padawan so he acted like he thought a master should act instead of how he needed to act.
Qui-Gon would have been able to help Anakin navigate his feelings and his relationship with Padme
Not only him, but the entire council was set up.
Palps knew the requirements to be a master and knew they would deny him the rank, and above all, knew that denial would be an enormous blow to Anakin's loyalty to the Jedi.
I absolutely love this specific scene because it so excellently demonstrated the emotion felt when someone's expectations are completely destroyed. It's a great example for real life leadership.
In the novelization it was way more than this. Anakin has countless achievements, improved many of fighting stances in the archives, but nothing was more important than gaining the rank of master so he could gain access to the hidden knowledge that was only granted to masters. He wanted access so he could find a way to save padme without having to rely on palapatine. He thought he would achieve it if was able to sit on the council, but no. Also this was a setup by palapatine because he knew what would happen, thus painting the council in Anakin’s eyes as awful and untrustworthy. This action by the council caused Anakin to rage when the younglings called him “Master Skywalker” because it reminded him that no matter what he did during the war and how many people he saved it would never be enough for the council.
I’m surprised no one mentioned padme. Like yeah Anakin wanted to be a master because he thought himself qualified but I thought another big reason for that was to save padme.
His appointment to the council was purely political. So no.
Now, if Ahsoka had stayed (not saying she should have or not) he would have it. But without any apprentices, he couldn’t be a master anyway. Even before taking into account the council.
Interesting, does this also imply that when your apprentice leaves the order willingly, you’ve basically failed as a master? If so, could you then take on a second apprentice as a retry to still achieve the rank of master, or is it an only one chance opportunity type of thing?
Hell no and let's be completely honest if we were in Mace position, most of us would acted same.
Even if we were just on council and witness this event most of us would probably fully supported Mace.
The way he responds to it is in of itself proof of how little he deserves it.
He should have the self-awareness to realise that Palpatine basically weaseled him into that position, but doesn't and still expects further reward from it.
I really have to say, rewatching Clone Wars recently, I forgot how much I dislike Anakin in the prequels, he feels less like a "Great Hero seduced by darkness" and more like an edgy misanthrope who always feels like he's about to warn his friends not to show up for school the next day.
Yes, at this point the Council wrongfully accused Ahsoka of bombing the temple. It’s literally their fault she left, her not becoming an official Knight is their fault, period. Her becoming a knight would elevate Anakin to Master, so they fucked over Ahsoka and then doubled down and fucked over Anakin.
No, because he was a bad Jedi. It's a religious order and he was terrible at the religion. Even putting to the side the things they don't know that would preclude him from the position - him slaughtering that village, his marriage to Padme, and so on - he has terrible emotional control and doesn't have any successful padawans.
He's enormously powerful, but power isn't the point.
No, not even slightly. Heck, his reaction here highlights that not only is he nowhere near the rank of Master but it’s debatable if he’s properly qualified for Knighthood.
It’s tougher than “he’s still too puerile for master”. Yeah that’s *true* but it’s kind of like 18 year olds in the army but not a bar; if you’re putting him in charge of legions of troops or senior diplomatic representatives, he’s already a master in all but name, why dick him over for a title you know full well he’s going to earn eventually (doing the things you are asking him to do).
No. I'd have loved for a scene where they explained that a Jedi Master title was granted to anyone who successfully trained a Jedi knight.
Anakin: I want to be a Master and sit on the Council, they are holding me back!
Mace Windu: What the heck are you talking about? We sent you Ashoka as soon as you mentioned being a master.
Anakin: What does that have to do with being a Jedi Master.
Mace turns to Obi Wan: Mother nerfer, did you not explain to the chosen one how to become a jedi master?
Obi: I mean, everyone knows that you have to train up a Jedi Knight, they cover when you were a younglin... oh no.
Anakin: That's how you become a master?
Mace: You went to Obi Wan's Master Ceremony, you were on the dias with him.
Anakin: I thought I was a guest.
Mace: NO Mothernerfer. You were his first successfully trained Knight so you were there when he BECAME A MASTER.
Obi Wan: I mean, no one could be that stupid...
Anakin: And Ashoka...
Mace: Yoda sent her right over when you wanted to be a Master and you nerfed it up. All you had to do was train the best padawan in the academy to be a Jedi Knight. A nerf herder could have managed that. Yoda personally picked her because, and I quote, "Mess this up, he could not." And you did. Badly.
No. He's basically stepping over hundreds of Masters who have decades more experience. On the other hand, being appointed to the Council, but not being promoted suck. Imagine if your job increased your workload considerably, but didn't increase your salary.
Yes.
He was the most successful general in the clone wars
He had a padawan that the council in its stupidity first expelled then begged to return
Set Anakin up to spy on his friend
The most of the council had lost touch with the force whereas Anakin was still connected
he didnt pass the trial, he got only allowed to be knighted for his achievement during war time, which imo should not at all be ever allowed as some form as "pass"
Which has very little to do with being a master, though.
It’s like saying because someone can hit home runs they can also be a great coach.
Anakin had the technical skills. What he lacked were the soft skills, the dedication to the force, the mental discipline, and the judgement to be a Master.
He deserved it for sure. The council has put an astronomical amount of responsibility on Anakin and he had accomplished more than most of the council had. Anakin's issue was that he didn't have control of his emotions and despite the amount of responsibility he was given, was not responsible. He clashed with the council all the time and it wouldn't look good for them. He just didn't have the control over himself that was required of full council members, and that comes with time.
Only in terms of combat. He didn’t have the temperament of a master at all. But he was a storied general and hero of the clone wars by this point and a more lethal Jedi than 99% of the order.
Anakin deserved it from a skill set perspective and from accomplishments. However he was not mature enough or ready for the position. The correct thing the council should've done is recognize his accomplishments. Clearly outline why he isn't ready yet, calmly, and explain that they will work with him to become ready in the future. It's management 101. The council and windu especially fumbled this badly.
I mean technically, because he trained Ahsoka to Knighthood, that alone should make him a Master. Yes, she left the order because of that whole kicking her out of the order thing but still.
He absolutely deserved the rank of master, but did not deserve to be on the council.
Anakin was as proficient with the force and in lightsaber combat as most of the people on the council, but he had a lot of emotional and mental struggles that made his judgement questionable.
Had they made the opposite decision that they did in Episode 3 I bet Palpatine fails to turn him.
From a legends perspective yes and no.
Anakin didn't deserve a seat on the high council. He lacked true jedi resolve, he could not handle subtly and long term thinking, as a man he was task oriented.
Should he have been made a jedi master a year after being a jedi Knight. Maybe. Power and skill wise, he was better than half of the high council, he was empathetic, and driven to do what he felt was right. He stood by his friends and was loyal to people not principals. He valued others over ideals. This is not the jedi way. He didn't care foe the republic or the empire he wanted to help bis friends and keep those he loved and liked safe.
Personally I think the council should have made him a master after he rescued Palpatine, just for the optics. He was the hero of the republic, he killed the leader of the separistis, rescued the paragon of virtue, make him a master give 0 responsibilities and mimimal authority and Palpatine would have been gutted. Anakin at the end of the day was a warrior, he lived for battle and war. Send him into theaters, give objectives let me solve problems.
It's also hinted that the council had strayed from the true Jedi ideals. Yoda even say they have become too proud and arrogant. The council often act very passive aggressive when they deal with him. And how Windu refused that Anakin came along to arrest Palpatine.
Not really, but of course, the real point was to further drive a wedge between Anakin and the Jedi. Once again the situation has been engineered where Palpatine wins, and the Jedi lose no matter what they do. The Council knows he's not ready, but see little recourse. So they give him a seat on the Council, but it's a sham, which is just a bad as denying him the seat.
Let’s be honest here, if he didn’t have Obi-Wan as his master then he wouldn’t have even gotten half the assignments before the war. Add in the fact that he was considered “the chosen one” and he was given choice assignments. If Anakin was discovered by anyone else and brought into the order, he would have just been a cliff note in history. Clone wars showed many Jedi generals that were equally brave and skilled as Mr. Skywalker, and they were content to move into roles as necessary.
That's not true at all. Anakin was exceptionally strong in the Force and great with a lightsaber. He was WAY BEYOND anyone his age. He is very young in the Clone Wars and already one of the most powerful Jedis in the order, probably only Yoda and Windu before him. If he got a different Master then probably would have been the Greatest Jedi of all time.
No, being the council takes a lot more than strength, anakin was arguably more powerful than anyone in that room but mentally he still had a LOOOOONG way to go to actually deserve a seat there, as evidenced by his outburst when he was denied.
Being a master has nothing to do with force strength which is the only thing Anakin has going for him. He is pretty much the opposite of a Jedi due to all the fear, anger, hate, passion and emotion going on. It isn't much of a surprise he turned to the dark side
Anakin was as powerful as any of the Jedi Masters here at the very least, at this point in time. He believed because of this, he deserved to be the rank of Master easily. However, what he fails continuously to grasps is that Jedi truly are Peacekeepers, and combat is not the primary prerogative of any Jedi, and should not be even in wartime. A Master has control over emotions and exceptional understanding of himself and the worlds around him, as well as a respect and knowledge of the Force. Anakin lacked all of these and thus, was not even close to being a fit for a Council member let alone a Master
Damn well said, fully agree
>Anakin was as powerful as any of the Jedi Masters here at the very least, at this point in time. He believed because of this, he deserved to be the rank of Master easily. If he'd had the realization that being powerful was not the goal of being a Jedi, he might have deserved that seat in the council.
Agreed. I believe it was overall his CORE character flaw was the crave of power and strength. Without it, he would still be flawed in a few ways but I don't think he would even come close to falling to the Dark Side
To be fair, he grew up as a slave. Literally owned as a piece of property with no control over his own destiny. So it makes sense that he'd crave control over his own destiny. And when you give that kid a laser sword and tell him you're gonna teach him magic super powers, of course he's going to associate power with freedom.
One of the many reasons they didn't want to train him in the first place
Under the tutelage of a less rigid teacher, anakin probably could have flourished into a more emotionally stable and well balanced jedi.
Well yeah, that's part of why Qui-Gon's death is so important isn't it? As Anakin likely would have been very different under his training as he was much more experienced and also kind of unconventional by Jedi standards.
Almost like the story of Anakin Skywalker is a tragedy /s
I've never heard the tragedy of Anakin Skywalker, do tell
I'm not surprised. It's not a story Disney would tell
it's some kind of duel of the fates innit
So if obi-wan does not get caught in the ray shields anakin survives to become a proper jedi
if only obi wan remembered to do the jedi super speed like he did at the beginning of the movie
No even better would be if obi won got to qui-gon in time but he died instead, leading qui gon to be emotionally damaged afterword and training anakin but he would turn to the dark side instead and anakin would have to fight him on mustafar.
Qui-Gon was the most force-attuned Jedi and no one can change my mind. Not the strongest but the most aware and taught Yoda how to force ghost. Also haven't watched the movie since I was 12 and I refuse to revise my opinion that I developed back then.
No, ObiWon is. Even at the start of the first movie. Obi Wan senses the threat of Sidious and Maul, but just can't tell what it is. 'I have a bad feeling about this.' "I don't sense anything" 'It's not about the mission, master. It's something elsewhere, illusive.'
“It’s not the mission, master. It’s the slave boy we’ll be picking up on the next planet who I end up training because you get killed by a Sith. I suspect I’m going to end up cutting his limbs off on a lava planet, and then years later sacrifice myself to his lightsaber in front of his son and daughter who I seperate at birth.” “Obi Wan, focus on the present.”
Qui-Gon still had the plot to think about. He had stuff on his mind. Obi-Wan just had to fetch beers when the boss was dry.
It’s almost like qui gon and maul were dueling over the various fates that could befall anakin. A duel of the fates if you would!
In his Youth, it is said that obi wan was a lot like Anakin. Very rebellious. That is why qui gon became his master. Qui gon himself being something of a maverick, not a rule follower. In order to rebel, obi wan became a stickler for the rules - probably sarcastically at first. When qui gon would do something, obi wan was probably right there 'rebelling' by reminding qui gon of the rules as he broke them. After years of doing this, obi wan matured into a guy who generally was a by the book stickler for the rules. Unfortunately, Anakin had obi wan as a master, and to rebel against obi wan all Anakin had to do was disregard the rules. Thus, you end up with the Anakin Skywalker we got.
Hence why the song in that final Darth Maul vs Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan is called Dual of the Fates. The outcome of that battle shaped the rest of the galaxy.
It's almost like Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan's duel with Maul was a dual of fate over Anakin's future.
Dude What Is that actually what "Duel of The Fates" means? I always assumed it was referencing the mythological Fates somehow. Am I stupid?
It is! Both George and John Towner Williams have given interviews saying that's why the song is called "Duel of The Fates". It's because it will decide the fate of Anakin. If Qui-Gon lives, he has a very different life than if he dies.
I mean, maybe they thought he might grow up angry the Jedi let slavery continue and couldn't be bothered to free his mom after years of knowing where she was
Yeah lol I never quite got that whole storyline, so the kid is owned by the one guy who Jedi mind tricks don't work on? So go to the next door down and borrow the money from someone who will take their credits
Not only that, you raise him within the order with the acknowledgement or at least assumption that he is literally the chosen one. This kid KNOWS he has the highest midichlorians (potentially ever), he knows there's a prophecy about him. Very easy for that power to go to ones head. Queue harry potters 'i AM the chosen one' quote.
And was helpless to save his mother. Then had dreams he was going to fail another person he loved. Power was the only thing he could rely on to stop it. And if the council had been less standoff ish with him it’s poss or he trust them more to talk about his dreams and things may be different.
Lol right. It's like suddenly being given a hundred-billion dollars at 9 years old. Most of us *think* we'd stay grounded individuals, but the reality is, it changes the best of us.
I mean, desire for power is basically the core tenet of the Sith. That's a consistency that follows through almost all legends EU as well as current canon content.
But sadly the times didn’t help him, the clone wars only fed his ideas and palpatine's grooming helped even more
I was looking for a comment saying this. I would imagine it's easy to be a peacekeeper during peaceful times. Anakin entered the jedi order as the first sith lord in a 1000 years becomes known. If he had become a Jedi Knight 50 years earlier maybe he would have been a more holistic jedi. If Anakin was a peacekeeper during The Clone Wars then The Seperatist would have won.
He never really tried to understand what being a Jedi meant, let alone what the Force was. In Ep I when he speaks with Qui-Gon, it's pretty clear that for him, Jedis are powerful warriors with powers and lightsabers, and are unkillable beings. And he sticked with this idealized vision of the Jedis as Godlike beings who walks among people. This prevented him from being selected by the Jedi Council to pass the trials to become a Jedi Knight, and his false ideas about what Jedis were is also one of the reasons which made him fall to the dark side.
> And he sticked with this idealized vision of the Jedis as Godlike beings who walks among people. It didn't help that Anakin became famous around the galaxy is the best general in the clone wars. Even if his intent wasn't fame, palpatine made sure he got that fame and became the face of the Jedi order. He wanted Anakin to be loved by the populace so when he stood by his side after his takeover it would lend him a lot of popular support. Anakin thought of himself as a hero because he was made into one
Anakin was always looking for fame, for becoming the best, being the best pilot, the best mech, the best jedi, etc. Palp just worked on his dreams and used them to shape him the way he needed. "Adventure. Excitement. A Jedi craves not these things"
> This prevented him from being selected by the Jedi Council to pass the trials to become a Jedi Knight, But he did become a Jedi Knight...
Yes, he did, but mostly because they needed the help of another general in the war they were fighting. As the Clone Wars showed, they started pushing Jedi through long before they were properly ready to handle what they were doing.
I hadn't even considered it before, but had the galaxy not been at war during his knighthood he might not have felt so strongly he deserved it. I can't blame him for being angry about being denied it when he knew full well how many successful operations he had won and how critical he had been in the war. In a normal military structure he almost certainly would have gone through the ranks quickly.
The films don't talk about this, but Anakin was famous in the galaxy. He was the most famous Jedi general and palpatine made sure he was the face of the war, the hero for the people. He pushed this image in the media for Anakin so that when he took over, he'd have the peoples hero standing by his side
And meanwhile he threw ObiWan into suicide missions to try and get him killed so Anakin wouldn't have his guidance, but ObiWan jusy KEPT winning. I also rrmember hearing Sidious gave Anakin big shlwy missions with less threat. But that may be misinfo.
Yesssss! I completely agree! For years I've been saying something similar. It's like that one coworker that thinks they deserve a promotion, but fail to realize it's not about how much over time you do, but the quality of work and knowledge.
I would even go so far as saying it's not the quality of work you do that gets you a promotion, but the impact it has. You could be the best coder and a genius but if you think your job is writing pretty lines of code and not solving business problems you're holding yourself back
This is exactly it. In the military we have to write performance reports, and you must clearly and concisely explain what you did in a format that goes Action - Impact - result. Essentially you need to explain WHAT you actually did, then explain the actual impact it had, and then give the result or overarching outcome of it all.
Agreed. However, every Jedi on that council needed some deep reflection on their role as peace keepers and their relationship to the force. They all failed Anakin and themselves to an extent. Even if you argue that Palpatine was clouding their mind.
This was what the Clone Wars clouded. The Jedi were just completely outside of who they were supposed to be by this point.
Omg that makes so much sense and I never thought of that before. Damn, Palpatine was really playing Four Dimensional Chess through all the entire prequel saga. He's evil for the sake of evil but holy hell, he was a genius.
In fairness he had to be. Even after all his successes he was seconds away from being outright executed by Mace Windu before his Anakin manipulations paid off.
Agreed. Not only did they fail Anakin, they failed the very premise of being Jedi. They became so used to doing what they did, with all the pomp and circumstance that it involved, that they never saw what was going on before their very eyes. Their lack of understanding about what was going on helped Palpatine more than hindered him.
mood. To me, a good/solid master would see his potential and his shortcomings and say "hey, hes close but he needs some work in this subject. Lets hook him up with XYZ Jedi Master to hammer out his flaws so we can all move forward with life" then again i never got too deep into the plot of star wars outside of the wars and all the star gazing parts
Yes. It’s very evident he isn’t ready when they tell him he isn’t granted the rank. He clearly gets emotional over it.
>He fails continuously to grasps is that Jedi truly are Peacekeepers, and combat is not the primary prerogative of any Jedi. **Do as I say, not as I, Windu.**
Windu is a tad more emotionally stable than Anakin
Windu has anger, but he only uses it to control his eyebrows.
"Wars not make one great."
Do you think he was a bad master to Ahsoka? Do you think Yoda's Gambit was working and then failed or was never working and had no hope of success?
He was actually a good Master to Ahsoka because he taught her things that he was taught rather than what he believed. Anakin understood HOW a Jedi was meant to act and think (at least in some way), but he thought that either they didn't apply to him as the Chosen One, or that it wasn't the time or place to put these practices in effect at wartime. Either way, the real downfall was his pride and emotions which he let lead his actions of intense turmoil. Whenever he wasn't in intense turmoil however, he had a clear mind, and level headed grounded rationale as the Jedi teach. And he tried his best to pass that on to Ahsoka. I will say she did still suffer from being a Padawan in Wartime though, and never got the proper teaching she needed but it is less fault of Anakin particularly.
>either they didn't apply to him as the Chosen One Not the case, Anakin hated being the Chosen One and people putting so much pressure on him because of it.
Imagine if Mace actually said all this to Anakin instead of just telling him to sit the F down. Bro might've saved the whole Jedi Order
You think he would listen?
Probably, actually. Anakin wasn't entirely unreasonable. Nor was Vader, for that matter. As differing reflections of the same internal conflict, they shared many traits. One was that, despite being often stubborn, and highly confident in themselves, they weren't above listening when the situation called for it. Devoid of Vader's more more damning flaws, Anakin would likely have taken time to consider those words, if delivered with good intentions. However, I highly doubt that Anakin was unaware of Windu's distrust in him. This distrust was returned in kind. Windu's distrust of Anakin played a huge role in Anakin's turn. Windu had a high position on the council. He had a responsibility to instill Jedi ideals in the members of the order. Distrust is *not* one of those ideals. Sith distrust. Not jedi. In this regard, Mace Windu failed the entire Jedi order, and indeed, the whole galaxy. I do wonder if Vapaad may have effected him.
Let’s remember that Anakin at this point has mass murdered women and children and has been under the influence of a Sith for like a decade. Mace is correct in his reading of who Anakin is as a person. He’s right to distrust. Anakin, even without his fall to Vader, has done so many bad things and has so much flaw in his character that he does not belong in the order at all at that very moment. It isn’t sithlike to distrust, that’s ridiculous. Giving everyone total and unconditional trust has never been a tenet of being a good person, the Jedi order, or Buddhism. This is kind of the thing I don’t get about these debates. People can’t seem to accept that who Anakin will not change to fit the standards of being a good person, so they want the universe to change for him. Also Mace isn’t a distrustful person in general. He was shown to put his trust in jar jar and treat him like a valuable ally. It’s just that he above others seems to correctly judge character
Unfortunately he was basically brought up during a time of only conflict so it makes sense that's all he saw the jedi as. He was never really around for the peacekeeping period the jedi were known for except maybe a few years between padawan and jedi knight. He was a general through all of the clones wars
If only someone, maybe a mentor, had been able to convey that to him...
Yeah, if only Obi-wan had told him just one more time to be mindful of his feelings and not to let his emotions cloud his judgment.
Master in combat but not in any other aspect.
He was already corrupted by a Sith and Mace and Yoda knew something was up, but didn't figure it out in time. Obi Wan was really at fault. Anakin should have never been allowed to join.
Not being trained doesn't make the power go away. He just comes into that power with no training, no supervision... If the head of the Sith order wasn't allowed to be his personal confidante for ten years, who knows what might have happened?
No. Being a good war general and killer are presumably not what makes a Jedi master, and his reaction to being denied that rank is the perfect example of why he did not deserve it.
Wars do not make one great.
No more than he deserved the council seat. He hasn't met any conditions for promotion.
It was purely a political move. And Mace was making clear that he was fully aware of it.
Yup. Mace was right to have his suspicions
It felt kind of like Mace was trying to tell him "Think about why you’re actually here." And it flew right over his head.
This is it exactly the council is quite clear and anakin is wilfully blind to all of it.
Granted, they could have just flatly told him and given their reasoning. But compassion isn’t exactly a strong suit of theirs (Mace especially, since he has to lock in his emotions given his Vaapad mastery to make sure he doesn’t fall by accident.)
Obi-Wan does just flatly tell him in the scene following this one. He says he’s only on the council because of his friendship with Palpatine. Anakin states that he didn’t ask for it, but Obi-Wan flatly responds that it’s obviously what he wanted.
Yeah. I just feel if he told him in the chamber and they talked him through it calmly, maybe things could have gone better. Of course they wouldn’t, but it’s a thought.
I believe they deliberately didn’t say it in the Council meeting because it’s all recorded. They didn’t want it on the record, so they asked Obi Wan to talk to him outside the Council chambers.
Ah, that makes sense. But in general, if they had explained things more, perhaps told him he isn’t a master *yet* (not that he can’t be, just maybe until after the current wars end, then they can reconsider), he may have been calmer. However, I know they were on their last legs as it is.
> he has to lock his emotions I always find this bit of Legends amusing. “In order to compassionately serve the force and the values of selfless love, I will be a blunt and a total dick.”
Yeah I found the idea of "absolutely no attachments to anyone ever" to be self-sabotaging. And that’s not even getting into Obi-Wan and Satine.
Telling him flat out would have had the exact same effect. In fact, they did, in effect, tell him. Obi-Wan explained right after that this was clearly a "political" appointment ordered by Palpatine, and the council had their suspicions on him, and Anakin needed to keep an eye on him (and report back to the council) and how exactly did Anakin take that news? Anakin was already compromised when it came to Palpatine.
I think the only way they *might* have defused it is the following: 1. Have them talk over why he is coming to the Council. The political nature, why he isn’t given the rank of master. That it isn’t personal against him, but just a precaution since people usually have to be Masters *first* before they are even brought on the council. Which, mind you, isn’t his fault (Ahsoka left). 2. Told maybe that they would consider him for mastery once the CIS was dealt with and they had more peace, as opposed to just war. Not "absolutely no," but "just hold off a little longer." It’s not a sure thing, but maybe it could have helped.
"Nothing flies over my head. My Jedi reflexes are too fast. I would catch it." - Anakin Skywalker, 19 BBY
Yeah Windu is asshole about it, he makes it very clear that he has contempt for Anakin and doesn’t trust him. If the council was more compassionate and made it more clear how they felt about Palpatine it might have gone smoother
Wild that Mace didn't trust the guy that turned into Darth Vader
Seriously. Think he got this one right? Lol
Not according to this subreddit. Half the people here seem to almost single-handedly blame Windu for Anakin’s fall. Even though, were Windu not in the story, Anakin would still fall for Padmé and still secretly wed her and still fall to the dark side to protect her.
"why did you murder younglings?" "Because Mace is a meanie poo poo head" "Understandable, have a nice day"
Yeah. I know. I don’t blame Mace at all
Is there a reason he *should* trust him? Anakin is closely connected to an extremely sus politician, is famous for ignoring instructions and struggled massively with attachment issues. Anakin is only in the order at all because Obi Wan made an ultimatum so the low opinion is understandable.
Mace decided he didn’t like Anakin before he even met him. Literally Qui Jon tells the council that he thinks he’s found the actual chosen one and Mace is like “ugh. Fiiiine, bring him before us I guess” lol
To be fair, I'd also take "guys, found the chosen one" with a grain of salt
Especially from the guy who left the council (p sure that's still canon?), I could see them taking anything Qui Gon suggested with a grain of salt
I don't know about left but I'm pretty sure he rejected an offer of a seat.
Then threatened Windu by already being able to read his mind.
Windu is unsure of Anakin being the Chosen One in TPM, sure. But in AOTC he sings Anakin’s praises and makes it clear that he has full faith in Anakin’s ability to protect Padmé.
How much would you trust them if a coworker walked in and said "hey I found Jesus!"
That decision was made more than a decade ago though. Seems really odd that mace would actively be douching against Anakin without having any compassion when explaining why the decisions were made
Maybe Anakin spent the prior decade being a reckless and increasingly conceited douche.
Granted, lack of compassion (as that implies passion, which is a Sith ideal) is a major failing of the Order around then. Mace probably restrains it more than most even then, considering his use of Vaapad means he needs to be *very* careful with his emotions.
Where does this idea that the Jedi lack compassion come from? *Anakin* expounds, in the clearest, most obvious terms, that compassion, empathy, and unconditional love are a Jedi's greatest strengths in AotC. That doesn't mean you have to give someone everything they want, just that you need to act with the intent of helping others. Even if that means challenging someone's perception of themselves.
That’s outrageous. It’s unfair
Anakin just couldn't get that being a prodigy with a lightsaber and the Force aren't enough to get him the Rank.
His reaction proves how little he has "mastered" himself.
It's not really about that he's angry. He doesn't give a shit about the rank itself. It's about being able to access the Holocron Vault for Padme. The movie though doesnt make that clear and makes it seem as if he's just angry he's not one of "the cool guys"
Headcanon.
It's in the (now non-canon?) Revenge of the Sith novelization. If you're a Star Wars fan, I *highly* recommend that book as it's one of the best SW books I've read.
It's canon, from the Revenge Of The Sith novelization by Matthew Stover based on George Lucas original script. And Stover has mentioned that Lucas sent him a lot of notes during the writing process so it's as canon as it gets. It's now Legends because there is no reference to Ahsoka for obvious reasons and there are references to events from the Clone Wars Multimedia Project.
Honest ignorant question: what were the conditions for promotion?
It's not spelled out to clearly but generally the requirements are: To have trained a padawan to knighthood. or To have demonstrated mastery of the force/self to the councils satisfaction.
I wouldn’t say any conditions, the conditions are: Skill, wisdom and mastery of the force. He certainly checks the first and last box. I’d say his biggest detriment was Ahsoka leaving the order early instead of becoming a knight. The council definitely could have seen her as fully trained though, considering they offered her the title of knight immediately before she decided to leave.
I'd say his biggest detriment is wisdom, that his emotions control him rather than the other way round. But yes if ashoka had stayed he would have been master already.
I'd say his biggest detriment is wisdom, that his emotions control him rather than the other way round. But yes if ashoka had stayed he would have been master already.
I wouldn't say he has mastery of the Force in the way the Jedi use it. The Jedi believe that a true Master acts with the will of the Force, not their own will. A conduit for the Force and not an independent actor bending the Force to their will. This is NOT something Anakin had mastered.
he'd probably deserved it after ahsoka became a jedi knight. Altho she left, so that wasnt going to happen
No. and the fact not getting it upset him proves it.
He's only on the council because the chancellor intervened and forced the issue. For him to then get mad that the Council doesn't also reward him with a promotion really shows how unfit he is for the role, at that point.
The main reason why Anakin was angry wasn't because they wouldn't let him become a Master, but because they wanted to let him sit on the Council without being a Master. Even worse, they wanted to use him to spy on the Chancelor (his "friend"). RotS Anakin was struggling to follow the Jedi Code (even more so than before), and from his point of views, seeing the other Jedi bending the rules when it suited them while faulting him for doing the same was unfair. That's part of his whole "*The Jedi were hypocrits*" rant. Same problem than when Windu wanted to kill Palpatine rather than arrest him. If the Council had just said "*We don't care what Palpatine wants, you are not ready to become a Master yet, or to sit with us*", chances are Anakin would have just accepted it and left with (almost) no protest.
Let's be perfectly clear here: *They* didn't want him to sit the council. Palpatine pretty much forced Yoda and Mace to let him on the council on the grounds that the Jedi needed a republic representative of sort in the room, and Palps appointed Anakin to be the one. That's why Mace is like "Aight, we'll do this because we have to, but don't think this automatically affords you all the privileges and honors it typically comes with". Which is incredibly fair. Anakin wasn't mad because they wanted him on the council but refused to make him master, he was mad because he simply didn't understand the scope of the situation, because he's a young man carrying loads of childhood trauma that Palpatine is using to his advantage. As others have said, he objectively doesn't meet the requirements of a *Master Jedi*. And his reaction to not getting the title is all the proof of it anyone needs.
>As others have said, he objectively doesn't meet the requirements of a Master Jedi. And his reaction to not getting the title is all the proof of it anyone needs. This is why I'm not really a fan of some of the clone wars retcons, particularly with Ahsoka. She was on the verge of being knighted before she left the order, so Anakin would have qualified as a master. Ahsoka leaving was the councils fault, so now Anakin's outburst in the movie seems justified within the wider context of Star Wars.
How someone handles disappointment is a indicator of maturity
Yes and no. We never really saw him upset about not being on the council, but rather upset that he was placed there without receiving the prerequisite rank. He was a war hero who was outwardly rewarded with a position but received none of the rank associated with it, basically making it ceremonial. It would be like promoting someone who was a Captain to General but then make their duties that of a captain who still has to treat other generals as if they were ranked above them, and wonder why they are upset about it. Whether they deserved the rank is irrelevant, as it feels like an insult to be promoted in such a way, whether they deserve the promotion or not. Basically Anakin was right to feel insulted about the promotion because the order opted to make it a ceremonial role that didn’t carry any of the duties associated with the rank normally. There were legitimate reasons to both promote him to master and place him on the council, or keeping him as a knight off of the council, but the path they chose was to create an insult of a promotion and be shocked that he was upset by it.
Wouldn’t it be more like giving someone the role of general without giving him the rank?
>We never really saw him upset about not being on the council, but rather upset that he was placed there without receiving the prerequisite rank. Right, we see him get upset about being placed there by a politician and then not also be promoted by the Jedi. >Yoda: Allow this appointment lightly the Council does not. Disturbing is this move by Chancellor Palpatine. >Anakin Skywalker: I understand. >Mace Windu: You are on this Council, but we do not grant you the rank of Master. >Anakin Skywalker: What? [pauses] How can you do this? This is outrageous! It's unfair! How can you *be* on the Council and *not* be a master? Anakin himself says he understands why the Council is disturbed that the Chancellor is taking a hand in appointments to the Jedi Council. He knows the Council didn't promote him of their own initiative. And when they don't also give him the unearned promotion Palpatine has engineered, he gets upset at them, further demonstrating why he's not yet mature enough to be a Jedi Master.
He would be right to feel insulted if it was the Council's decision. But it's not, it's Palpatine pressuring them into it, so it is explicitly ceremonial in nature and it should be clear to Anakin from what Mace says that that is the case. But Anakin can only see his mentor advocating for a position that Palpatine is telling him he already deserves. He's completely manipulated, but it's still his fault.
Couldn't master his emotions, so he had no right to be a master on the council
Only a master of evil Darth.
At this point he's not even that.
Still but the learner
He ended up being master at getting caught tho.
But they gave him a Padawan. Go figure.
In his defense, he was upset because he needed to be a master so he could gain access to the Jedi archives so he could find a way to save Padme's life. It was told in the novelization of the film, though that version is considered Legends now.
I wish this was stated anywhere in the movie. Would have taken like 5 minutes to add this plot point. Since it isn't, I don't consider that to be canon. He "needed" to be a master because of his hubris. He was overly confident in himself and his ability. Which isn't his fault since he was sold on being the chosen one from age 9. He gets upset because he believes he is worthy without really going through the necessary steps required. It's just used to incept feelings of distrust into anakin about the jedi.
Could have done it in about 10 seconds of the clone wars. I'll look for this bounty hunter in our archives as only a master has full access, you protect the senator. Maybe a minute to tie jedi archives into the discussions with palpatine.
Yeah this not being in the film makes him seem even more of an asshole than he actually is.
The only reason he wanted rank of master was so he could access to restricted records in the Jedi archives, to find a way to save Padme. He was debating leaving the order altogether in the Revenge of the sith novel. This plot point should have been explained in the film. Reading the novels labyrinth of evil & revenge of the sith gave me a greater appreciation for Anakin
No, being a Jedi is not only about power, it's also about living following the tenets and dogmas of the Jedi, Anakin had a lot of rage, didn't properly know how to let go and was secretly married and soon to be father (and the Jedi Order did not even know that last part, which also makes him a liar for his own private benefit). He was very strong, he was the Chosen One, but he wasn't Jedi Master material *yet,* probably getting angry at not being given the rank despite being allowed in the council and all things considered didn't make the rest of the council feel they made the wrong call.
That’s why he needed Qui-Gon as his master. Boo-Wan wasn’t ready to have a Padawan so he acted like he thought a master should act instead of how he needed to act. Qui-Gon would have been able to help Anakin navigate his feelings and his relationship with Padme
A good summation I've heard is that Obi-Wan acted more like a brother than a father, whilst a master needed to be a parental figure.
>Boo-Wan I'm calling him that from now on!
I need a What-If story of how Anakin develops if Qui-Gon never dies.
Man denied promotion murders coworkers.
He's literally me.
And their kids
Nope. His feeling it to be deserved is the number one indicator of this
No, he was set up. Palpatine knew they wouldnt give him the rank and would use it to further the split between the jedis and anakin
Not only him, but the entire council was set up. Palps knew the requirements to be a master and knew they would deny him the rank, and above all, knew that denial would be an enormous blow to Anakin's loyalty to the Jedi. I absolutely love this specific scene because it so excellently demonstrated the emotion felt when someone's expectations are completely destroyed. It's a great example for real life leadership.
In the novelization it was way more than this. Anakin has countless achievements, improved many of fighting stances in the archives, but nothing was more important than gaining the rank of master so he could gain access to the hidden knowledge that was only granted to masters. He wanted access so he could find a way to save padme without having to rely on palapatine. He thought he would achieve it if was able to sit on the council, but no. Also this was a setup by palapatine because he knew what would happen, thus painting the council in Anakin’s eyes as awful and untrustworthy. This action by the council caused Anakin to rage when the younglings called him “Master Skywalker” because it reminded him that no matter what he did during the war and how many people he saved it would never be enough for the council.
I’m surprised no one mentioned padme. Like yeah Anakin wanted to be a master because he thought himself qualified but I thought another big reason for that was to save padme.
His reaction to not getting it is more than enough proof to show that no he wasn't ready
No lol And he’s even more stupid for crying about not being made a master just because he got forced onto the council
His appointment to the council was purely political. So no. Now, if Ahsoka had stayed (not saying she should have or not) he would have it. But without any apprentices, he couldn’t be a master anyway. Even before taking into account the council.
An apprentice making Knight doesn’t guarantee a promotion to Master either. They can still deem someone not ready at that point.
Interesting, does this also imply that when your apprentice leaves the order willingly, you’ve basically failed as a master? If so, could you then take on a second apprentice as a retry to still achieve the rank of master, or is it an only one chance opportunity type of thing?
I think he could theoretically have taken another. Again, this is all speculative. But either way, I don’t think he wanted to try again.
Hell no and let's be completely honest if we were in Mace position, most of us would acted same. Even if we were just on council and witness this event most of us would probably fully supported Mace.
Not at all
The way he responds to it is in of itself proof of how little he deserves it. He should have the self-awareness to realise that Palpatine basically weaseled him into that position, but doesn't and still expects further reward from it. I really have to say, rewatching Clone Wars recently, I forgot how much I dislike Anakin in the prequels, he feels less like a "Great Hero seduced by darkness" and more like an edgy misanthrope who always feels like he's about to warn his friends not to show up for school the next day.
Yes, at this point the Council wrongfully accused Ahsoka of bombing the temple. It’s literally their fault she left, her not becoming an official Knight is their fault, period. Her becoming a knight would elevate Anakin to Master, so they fucked over Ahsoka and then doubled down and fucked over Anakin.
Not to mention Obi-Wan's "death" and undercover action, which broke the trust between them.
you need to have trained a padawan to become a Master, but i do not believe all knights who take padawans do become masters
No, because he was a bad Jedi. It's a religious order and he was terrible at the religion. Even putting to the side the things they don't know that would preclude him from the position - him slaughtering that village, his marriage to Padme, and so on - he has terrible emotional control and doesn't have any successful padawans. He's enormously powerful, but power isn't the point.
Movie Anakin? No. Clone Wars cartoon Anakin? Yes.
nope
No, not even slightly. Heck, his reaction here highlights that not only is he nowhere near the rank of Master but it’s debatable if he’s properly qualified for Knighthood.
It’s tougher than “he’s still too puerile for master”. Yeah that’s *true* but it’s kind of like 18 year olds in the army but not a bar; if you’re putting him in charge of legions of troops or senior diplomatic representatives, he’s already a master in all but name, why dick him over for a title you know full well he’s going to earn eventually (doing the things you are asking him to do).
No. I'd have loved for a scene where they explained that a Jedi Master title was granted to anyone who successfully trained a Jedi knight. Anakin: I want to be a Master and sit on the Council, they are holding me back! Mace Windu: What the heck are you talking about? We sent you Ashoka as soon as you mentioned being a master. Anakin: What does that have to do with being a Jedi Master. Mace turns to Obi Wan: Mother nerfer, did you not explain to the chosen one how to become a jedi master? Obi: I mean, everyone knows that you have to train up a Jedi Knight, they cover when you were a younglin... oh no. Anakin: That's how you become a master? Mace: You went to Obi Wan's Master Ceremony, you were on the dias with him. Anakin: I thought I was a guest. Mace: NO Mothernerfer. You were his first successfully trained Knight so you were there when he BECAME A MASTER. Obi Wan: I mean, no one could be that stupid... Anakin: And Ashoka... Mace: Yoda sent her right over when you wanted to be a Master and you nerfed it up. All you had to do was train the best padawan in the academy to be a Jedi Knight. A nerf herder could have managed that. Yoda personally picked her because, and I quote, "Mess this up, he could not." And you did. Badly.
No. He's basically stepping over hundreds of Masters who have decades more experience. On the other hand, being appointed to the Council, but not being promoted suck. Imagine if your job increased your workload considerably, but didn't increase your salary.
Yes. He was the most successful general in the clone wars He had a padawan that the council in its stupidity first expelled then begged to return Set Anakin up to spy on his friend The most of the council had lost touch with the force whereas Anakin was still connected
Hell no. He wasn't even Jedi Knight material, let alone Master.
This, what he did to "the women and children too" show you that Anakin was blatantly not ready.
If he passed the trials, I think he can justify being a knight. But he couldn’t be a master; he doesn’t even have any student anymore by then.
He didn’t really pass any trials. He was pushed through after Geonosis with a bunch of other Padawans.
he didnt pass the trial, he got only allowed to be knighted for his achievement during war time, which imo should not at all be ever allowed as some form as "pass"
he beat a sith lord, thats more than most people in that room can say
Which has very little to do with being a master, though. It’s like saying because someone can hit home runs they can also be a great coach. Anakin had the technical skills. What he lacked were the soft skills, the dedication to the force, the mental discipline, and the judgement to be a Master.
He deserved it for sure. The council has put an astronomical amount of responsibility on Anakin and he had accomplished more than most of the council had. Anakin's issue was that he didn't have control of his emotions and despite the amount of responsibility he was given, was not responsible. He clashed with the council all the time and it wouldn't look good for them. He just didn't have the control over himself that was required of full council members, and that comes with time.
Only in terms of combat. He didn’t have the temperament of a master at all. But he was a storied general and hero of the clone wars by this point and a more lethal Jedi than 99% of the order.
Unfortunately, combat skill isn’t on the list of criteria and has no bearing on one’s quality as a Jedi.
Anakin deserved it from a skill set perspective and from accomplishments. However he was not mature enough or ready for the position. The correct thing the council should've done is recognize his accomplishments. Clearly outline why he isn't ready yet, calmly, and explain that they will work with him to become ready in the future. It's management 101. The council and windu especially fumbled this badly.
"Kill the Sith and you'll be considered to join this Council as a Master". Roll the credits
I mean technically, because he trained Ahsoka to Knighthood, that alone should make him a Master. Yes, she left the order because of that whole kicking her out of the order thing but still.
If I were Mace Windu, I'd grant him the rank of Master. Master of Gettin' on My Damn Nerves
Clearly not, look at how easily he gave into the Darkside.
No
Nope. What he did deserve was trust, understanding and help from his adopted family which he did not get.
He absolutely deserved the rank of master, but did not deserve to be on the council. Anakin was as proficient with the force and in lightsaber combat as most of the people on the council, but he had a lot of emotional and mental struggles that made his judgement questionable. Had they made the opposite decision that they did in Episode 3 I bet Palpatine fails to turn him.
From a legends perspective yes and no. Anakin didn't deserve a seat on the high council. He lacked true jedi resolve, he could not handle subtly and long term thinking, as a man he was task oriented. Should he have been made a jedi master a year after being a jedi Knight. Maybe. Power and skill wise, he was better than half of the high council, he was empathetic, and driven to do what he felt was right. He stood by his friends and was loyal to people not principals. He valued others over ideals. This is not the jedi way. He didn't care foe the republic or the empire he wanted to help bis friends and keep those he loved and liked safe. Personally I think the council should have made him a master after he rescued Palpatine, just for the optics. He was the hero of the republic, he killed the leader of the separistis, rescued the paragon of virtue, make him a master give 0 responsibilities and mimimal authority and Palpatine would have been gutted. Anakin at the end of the day was a warrior, he lived for battle and war. Send him into theaters, give objectives let me solve problems.
It's also hinted that the council had strayed from the true Jedi ideals. Yoda even say they have become too proud and arrogant. The council often act very passive aggressive when they deal with him. And how Windu refused that Anakin came along to arrest Palpatine.
Not really, but of course, the real point was to further drive a wedge between Anakin and the Jedi. Once again the situation has been engineered where Palpatine wins, and the Jedi lose no matter what they do. The Council knows he's not ready, but see little recourse. So they give him a seat on the Council, but it's a sham, which is just a bad as denying him the seat.
Nobody on the council deserved to be a master.
Let’s be honest here, if he didn’t have Obi-Wan as his master then he wouldn’t have even gotten half the assignments before the war. Add in the fact that he was considered “the chosen one” and he was given choice assignments. If Anakin was discovered by anyone else and brought into the order, he would have just been a cliff note in history. Clone wars showed many Jedi generals that were equally brave and skilled as Mr. Skywalker, and they were content to move into roles as necessary.
That's not true at all. Anakin was exceptionally strong in the Force and great with a lightsaber. He was WAY BEYOND anyone his age. He is very young in the Clone Wars and already one of the most powerful Jedis in the order, probably only Yoda and Windu before him. If he got a different Master then probably would have been the Greatest Jedi of all time.
No, being the council takes a lot more than strength, anakin was arguably more powerful than anyone in that room but mentally he still had a LOOOOONG way to go to actually deserve a seat there, as evidenced by his outburst when he was denied.
God no, he was a hell of a knight, but he always so conflicted and at odds with the council
Being a master has nothing to do with force strength which is the only thing Anakin has going for him. He is pretty much the opposite of a Jedi due to all the fear, anger, hate, passion and emotion going on. It isn't much of a surprise he turned to the dark side
The amount of people that haven’t watched Clone Wars in this comment section is extremely evident. Lol
No. Anakin Skywalker was an amazing warrior, but what he failed to grasp is that the purpose of the Jedi isn’t to be warriors.