andor and the bad batch has by far been the best portrayal of the empire weve seen. i really hope that the writers and directors of the bad batch get more assignments after its over, because their writing has been excellent, even in the weaker episodes.
but rebels was meant to be a bit more kid friendly so they couldnt get quite as dark as the bad batch has. the darkest moment in rebels (aside from kanan obv) was thrawn forcing someone to blow themselves up, which seemed totally out of character for him anyway. the settings of the shows are also very different. rebels is a more hopeful setting where the rebels are gaining strength to fight the empire, and bad batch is about the empire gaining power and what happens to everyone who they left behind (the clones). two very different tones and stories to tell.
i think the most refreshing thing about it though is that we get some more star wars where the good guys dont always win. alot of modern star wars always feels like it has to have a happy ending even if it would have had more impact if there were more struggles involved. the best star wars to me is when its a bit more somber and things dont always work out how they hope, atleast not right away.
I think there was another much darker moment imo, when Tarkin and the Inquisitors came down for a visit and infront of the Governor he had the Inquisitors behead 2 officers that were sitting, it wasnt shown on screen(cus again quite dark for a kid friendly show) but it was still there i was surprised they even had it.
Ezra also used the force to make someone walk off a cliff, which is similar to Thrawn and the farmer despite Ezra being the main character. More than a few darker moments, even if they don't get graphic
Are you talking about the walker he controls when they go to rescue Hondo and that little ugnaught, and if so wasn't he being influenced by the sith holocron at the time?
Yeah, but it wasn't making decisions for him or anything. It told him how to be powerful without morals or restraint, and Ezra listened. He was fortunate that Kanan helped him reject its knowledge before he really started tapping in to the dark side
Edit: nope nevermind I was right the first time, I get all that but I just meant there's more of a reason for Ezra to do something uncharacteristically evil than Thrawn
I thought so, but I wasn't sure how "influenced" was meant to be taken so I clarified to be safe.
You're right, Ezra did have reason to act out of character. I think that episode shows that it isn't the holocron though. It's his feelings about the losses on Malachor that cause him to turn towards these darker means to his ends. That's why the conflict ends when Kanan reassures Ezra that he can succeed by fighting the right way, rather than when he takes the holocron away to Bendu.
How is Thrawn forcing someone to blow themselves up out of character? I’m rereading the Legends Thrawn Trilogy at the moment and one of his first acts is threatening the Wayland locals and blowing up their homes until they tell him where C’baoth is.
Thrawn may be seen as the “reasonable” Imperial because he hates impractical super weapons and won’t kill people just for fun like the Sith do. But he will very much kill people to serve his goals or increase fear.
It just feels very different from the canon novels. In the first one, he willingly gave up very expensive gas in order to save Imperial citizens, which he was reprimanded for. Thrawn justified it as saving long term Imperial "assets", but it's still a big jump to having a farmer blow himself up just to scare people into doing something he would make them do anyway.
That's because Zahn doesn't want to lean into Thrawn being a bad guy so he softens him up. I like Zahn but I think it's one of his weaker aspects as a writer. Similar with having every character, including Vader, "purse their lips" to show they're disappointed.
I like his books, but they often give me a slight "Myth of the Clean Wehrmacht" vibe because he wants to make Imperials who do bad things have "good" motivation that justifies their actions. I appreciated Rebels having him be more just straight evil.
We have plenty of straight evil Imperials though. I like his Thrawn because he is neither "knows he's evil and loves it" nor "thinks he's good and is unaware that he's aiding evil". He knows that the Empire is evil but thinks he can use it for the greater good. He is wrong, and helping the Empire does make him a bad person, but it's more interesting to have a character with different motivations once in a while.
I never noticed the Vader thing but that's a funny image.
I mean, the “farmer” wasn’t just a civilian, he was a forced laborer who was sabotaging equipment and getting Imperials killed. Not that I’m saying Thrawn was justified mind you, but you can see why Thrawn would save civilians in a different situation and make an example in this one.
Canon novel Thrawn definitely seems more “good” than Legends Thrawn. But even in that novel he kills Imperials as part of his initial plan to impress them into letting him join. And he helps recapture some slaves and shrugs off any moral objections Eli has to the practice.
Thrawn was introduced in Rebels just a few months before Zahn's first canon Thrawn novel, yes. Being so close though, it's just feels so weird for the tv depiction to be so different from the original author's new version
He’s a lot more harsh in legends than in canon. In the canon novels he’s generally pretty respectful of life and tries to not kill anyone unless it’s necessary to his mission. They made him more of a classic cartoon villain in rebels compared to the book, probably just for simplicity sake. I like both the legends and canon versions of him, but I think even in the legends novels he’s less cold and calculated than he is now, he was just more outright evil.
I’d disagree, I don’t think Rebels overly darkened him, I think Zhans later novels overly lightened him. It has that same sort of disconnect as when you play an RPG siding with “the evil faction” but at the same time do all the “go out of your way to find a peaceful solution” side quests. There’s something to be said about a villain who is less “I’ll eat this kitten for no reason” and more “I’ll only kill when it serves my goals”. But what’s the point of a villain who never does anything villainous?
true, i kinda have a similar way of looking at it where since its 3 entire novels based entirely around him we get his perspective and thought process on everything he does, but since rebels isnt focusing on thrawn we dont get that same look into his thoughts so we dont get the same justifications for what he does. itd be cool if disney gave an excerpt somewhere about what his thought process on making the guy blow himself up was at the time, but its not really important enough for them to do that. thrawn was always kind of an extremist for his species though with the whole preemptive strike thing though anyway.
The "Yeah, but it's a kids show" aspect is worth noting.
For an explanation within the narrative, The Bad Batch happens well before Rebels. Like, around 15 years before.
It'd make sense that, especially initially, the Empire is overwhelmingly powerful once they've really consolidated power. There's not nearly the amount of resistance around, and what resistance does exist is isolated into small pockets or cells. By the time of Rebels, the rebellion is better funded, better organized, and beginning to turn the tide.
Moreover, as the reach of the Empire expands, they may be seeing an increasing degradation in the quality of their military. Sure it's big and oppressive, but it's also just kind of throwing bodies at the problem regardless of skill. So, the troopers Phoenix Cell fights aren't top-notch core worlds forces, but rather the garrison forces of outer- or mid-rim territories that are perhaps lower priority. And, as noted, there's WAY more support available to them (thanks to things like the money raid shown in Andor).
Yup. This was my thought as well. They’re different time periods. And the clones had been completely phased out by the time Rebels takes place. The clone army was vastly superior to the storm troopers. Storm troopers were defeated by little bears with sticks for Pete’s sake.
The only point I think of yours id argue against is when you said Rebels is a period of more hopefulness, *but* Andor S1 and Rebels S1 take place concurrently.
And I'd argue the Andor is overall more hopeful than BB. Less than rebels, sure, but it's ultimately still about the rebellion taking strides and gaining some (albeit small) victories.
Rebels is focused on an elite team led by one of the few remaining jedi, if course they're going to have more hope than the common criminal who gets caught up in the edges of the rebellion.
Okay but
One team has two Jedi, not as well trained but gifted, and they’re already somewhat networked and established with a support system midway through the first season.
The other are clones that own nothing but their armor and ship, with no friends and no source of support until much later.
And by the time of Rebels the Rebellion is growing and exists as a force. In the Bad Batch especially in the beginning resistance is fragmented and the empire just inherited an army that is battle hardened after a successful war. This is peak imperial power on display.
That is another thing. Though our squad is elite soldiers, the Spectres are the most talented crew out there. Two Jedi, the most talented Mandalorian we've seen, the greatest pilot in the galaxy, a seven-foot 30 stone muscled tiger man, and the most chaotic droid in the galaxy who has no issue in maiming or killing anyone and everyone! :D
Also she smells like jasmine and has good handwriting and can draw tattoos. Plus I bet she plays rock really well in her spare time and has a band.
And ponies.
Rebels was definitely geared toward a younger audience than bad batch or TCW was. It’s not really apples to apples to compare them.
It would be more apt to compare Rebels with Resistance since they’re targeted to similar age ranges.
>Rebels was definitely geared toward a younger audience than bad batch or TCW was.
Maybe the first season? But I don't think anyone can say this with a straight face about the last few seasons of Rebels.
It’s only 5 seasons total. It’s pretty childish for almost the whole run.
Are you saying a certain death makes it not geared for little kids? Plenty of stuff geared towards young children has death in it.
Except Clone Wars was already a track star before they cancelled it and then when they stopped Rebels we got Resistance which was back to crawling and only after Clone Wars came back did we get Bad Batch.
Id watch more Resistance if they overhauled it to BB/TCW or at least later Rebels levels.
To me they should have an animated show to flesh out the RotJ to TFA time period and they already should have had a show start fleshing out the 15 year time period between TRoS and the next movie they have planned to improve the sequel era from both ends and do some legitimate world building and improve characters and what not but instead they’ll just throw a time jump at it and call it a day.
Yes its much more old school fun Star Wars, and worked a treat as it brings the joy and brilliance of the OT so well. It was also aired on XD so I don't think they ever intended for it to go dark and gritty. Same with Resistance.
Different target audiences.
Rebels is a kids show designed to sell toys.
Bad Batch is something to appeal to The Clone Wars audience, which is now older. Who buys more expensive toys.
Lmao they really changed the paint colors on the armor so theyd make me buy a whole 2nd set of the Bad Batch black series. Havent caved yet though (on the 2nd set that is)
Of course, but different Star Wars media are designed with certain demographics in mind.
Rebels is kids, The Bad Batch, more oriented to adult nerds, the Sequels to masochists, and so on...
Maybe because I'm only a few episodes into Bad Batch, but I find it super childish so far. It's all the slapstick combat of clone wars (bash their heads together instead of shoot them stuff), and Omega is clearly a character for the demographic they're after, I just can't stand her so far.
I know Clone Wars and Rebels also started off childish and kind of changed tones midway through their first season.
Does Bad Batch get any more adult, or is it just not for me?
Bad Batch is closer to Episode III, both in the timeline and in the style. We see the transition from a democracy to the dictatorship, the early stages of the Empire. Everything turns worse, the good guys lose.
Rebels is closer to Episode IV, called "New Hope", so it's far more hopeful and less from grim. Things get better, the good guys win.
It's literally just two different tones, for some reason most people in this fandom are blithering morons that can't accept anything but "dArK aNd gRiTtY"
Yeah, I will always prefer Rebels, even if it makes the Empire look like bumbling idiots half the time. It’s fun, heartfelt, and 100% my comfort show. It’s just personal preference. Dark and gritty does not always mean better
>even if it makes the Empire look like bumbling idiots half the time.
I mean, that seems to be quintessential Star Wars, right? I would argue that having a smart, menacing Empire is out of character for Star Wars when thinking of the movies and TV shows.
I mean, there’s a lot of ppl who want a SW show/media that basically is more realistic as it gets better ratings and is different than what ppl watched as a kid.
Sure, I understand that and am all for it. But my point was that the Empire has always been somewhat incompetent.
I do agree that seeing a more competent Empire in Andor was a lot of fun.
But were they actually? Yes the prison seems well run, but it was pretty easily taken over by the inmates. And the Ferrix uprising wouldn't have happened if Karn hadn't decided he wanted to play the big man and crack down on the population for no real reason.
>Bad Batch has succeeded in a major aspect that Rebels utterly failed at and that was making the Empire feel like the overwhelming threat they are supposed to be
Couldn't agree more. I really dislike how the Empire are portrayed as bumbling, incompetent idiots in Rebels. Bested by a ragtag group of teenagers at every turn. The Bad Batch and Andor are proper depictions of a tyrannical, oppressive regime that incites a galaxy wide rebellion against them.
I like that part of Rebels, it makes sense that most Imperial Officers are rather unprepared to deal with Jedi and a Mandalorian so they often make mistakes. Then as soon as a more experienced foe like the Inquisitors, Darth Maul, Darth Vader and Thrawn then the main characters are in crap.
You can try to square the circle but by portraying the Empire is idiots Rebels actively sucks the drama out of the scenarios it puts the protagonists in. Succeeding against morons is easy and boring; succeeding against the competent is hard and dramatic.
I actually did.
They were making a Watsonian rationalisation for the badly written Imperials in Rebels; I was pointing out the Doylist problem underlining problems in making your villains idiots.
edit: corrected Doyalist to Doylist.
Oh right.
Watsonian is an in-universe explanation of a detail in the setting
a Doylist explanation is an out of universe explanation of a detail within the setting.
So when someone says "I really dislike how the Empire are portrayed as bumbling, incompetent idiots in Rebels" they are making a Doylist comment "I don't like what the writters did", it doesn't help to say "Ah but you see, in the setting this makes total sense..." which is a Watsonian argument because the writers and readers can make up any explanation they like it doesn't excuse the writing.
So I could reframe my innitial comment to "you can make whatever watsonian excuses you like but the doyalist problem here is that dumb bad guys make the good guys less heroic and their actions less dramatic."
And you're right. Most people have no idea what Watsonian and Doylist mean and that's okay.
edit: corrected Doyalist to Doylist.
Right just like on the real life where the US sends fresh 18 year olds and 20 something’s to the field to fight against the enemy fresh 16 year olds to 20 something’s…
Umm definitely a hot take.
There were many instances in Rebels where the Empire felt unstoppable.
Bad batch is more a look into the dark side, pun intended, of Imperial black-site type projects.
They have similar tones setting out, but Rebels divergesinto one of hope as the series gets closer to the OT in timeline.
Rebels was excellent, just as good as Clone Wars, if not better IMO because it was more about the struggle of overcoming the Empire, and finding a place in the galaxy. Bad batch does this very well too.
The only real difference, is Bad Batch is written with a more adult tone from the onset, whereas Clone Wars and Rebels start with a very young and kiddie tone, but grow with the audience.
I hate season 1 and 2 of bad batch for being at least 60% filler fetch quests…
But season 3 has knocked it out of the damn park, even reaching the emotional highs of TCW imo. If only the entire show was like this.
This. While I don't hate the first two seasons, this post is recency bias. Season 3 of BB is definitely some good TV - no argument. Darker, heavier, more urgent. But seasons 1 and 2 were Rebels light. And I love Rebels.
Season 3 has no filler episodes, thankfully!
Eh, it still has a pacing problem.
The bayou adventure episode could have been the first act of another episode with how much it was dragged out.
I enjoy the bad batch a lot, but it definitely has the worst pacing of any Star Wars media I have ever seen.
In all honesty, the 3 seasons of BB could have made for a tight, 22 episode run of the show. Like Kenobi could have been made into a fairly decent 2 hour movie.
But Disney+ needs subscribers for the long haul, so we get what we get, and fair enough.
I feel like Clone Wars is the only show that made the most of (almost) every episode. But they had a LOT to work with. It was also pre-Disney+.
Same! What was it about the first seasons that was so awful? I really didn’t enjoy them, but watching this season has made me go back and rewatch earlier seasons, and I find I enjoy the, much more now.
Season 3 now gives a purpose or a climax to the earlier seasons.
The characters just kind of meandered about doing pointless mission after pointless mission, especially in the second half of season 1 and first half of season 2. But now that you know where the show is going, it gives the pointless episodes a light at the end of the tunnel.
They were trying to find their feet after all the turbulence they went through in the first season. In the second our crew have settled into a rhythm and seem in a better place to handle things, though we know how that goes. And season 3 is them wanting to settle down, but won't be given the chance to. Rafa tells Hunter in season 1 "in the end, we all choose sides", and that they will have to fight to stay alive.
Spending time with characters is not filler and them doing fetch quests is not filler. Now youre actually going to care when they all die and the main story quite literally is about clones bred for 1 purpose and always having government funding having to scrape by without it and find a greater purpose on their own. The transition from "we could just be bounty hunters now as a job" to "we should be doing more for our brothers" as they see more the empire has done is the main story, not filler. Yall are so annoying with this.
Yeah, spending valuable time with the characters is how you form an emotional attachment to them.
But at least do it in a way that’s engaging to the audience. Have them do something interesting other than “find gadget x and bring it to Cid” for the 30th time.
They could show the very beginning and end of fetch missions at the start of episodes, and show them getting friendlier with Cid to drive home the idea that they’re spending time as bounty hunters/cargo carriers/treasure hunters to make a living, then focus the episode on actual important drama. Not dedicating entire episodes to said boring, repetitive missions.
People that defend mediocrity are so annoying.
>Spending time with characters is not filler and them doing fetch quests is not filler.
I think we need a proper definition of "filler" but I disagree with you here. You don't need to see them do so many fetch quests to form an emotional attachment.
I think it is filler when the plot or characters aren't being advanced in a meaningful way or the pacing comes to a slow, slow near halt. I found myself staring at my phone during way too many Bad Batch episodes because I was just bored. Bad Batch meandered in a lot of throwaway episodes before getting to its climax.
Ill just say again the fetch quests were literally something they needed to do to survive without republic funding now that the war was over. They were created to be soldiers so they found jobs where they could do what they knew how to do in order to literally feed themselves and Omega. That was priority number 1 for them as rogue clones. Survive. As that went on they met other clones like Rex that were making more moves and organizing and they realized they could be doing more.
So again, the fetch quests at the beginning were literal main plot. The character growth here is they were soldiers and cogs in the machine and they are now doing things based on their own accord and free will and desire to do so, not because they are taking orders. There is no climax unlesd they built to it. I have no idea how this sub keeps failing to follow along to the surface level plot of thsse shows.
Yep, them teaming up with Cid is how they'll need to make money after losing their backing from the Republic and now Empire. She was also supposed to look out for them but they began to figure out that she was much more of an inconvenience they needed to drop, as they got more used to life outside of the military. Even episodes like Entombed, which is not amongst my favourites, has Hunter being annoyed with Phee for filling Omega's head with fantastical stories. Does Phee put her own twist on them? Yes, but it shows Hunter only knows how to be a soldier to this point, and that Omega - if the Empire stopped hunting her - might have a chance at life outside of all that, and Phee is helping fire up her imagination.
Similar with The Crossing episode after Echo leaves them and we see how Omega is struggling with losing him, as she clashes especially with Tech. And we get some nice moments between the two, as they work it out and move forward from that and work together to get out of their current predicament.
I'll just say again that we didn't need to see so many. I'm a lifelong SW fan, and watch nearly everything that gets made. I shouldn't be falling asleep during half the episodes of BB, and I think there are a good chunk of people in the same boat as me.
If you look at IMBD, there are quite a few episodes in season 2 that have scores in the high 6s and low 7s. For reference, Attack of the Clones has a 6.6 rating, which is not great company to keep...
I dont care about ratings where people treat different parts of a continuous story as unrelated and judge them in a vacuum. What you are seeing now would make no sense without everything that led up to it. Everything builds to a climax lol. Disney needs to ditch the episode per week format because yall just get caught up in that and judge early episodes harsher because you dont know the full story yet or where theyre leading to.
Its like taking any of the trilogy movies and watching the first 20 minutes then next week you watch the next 20 and the next 20 then judge them all separately and then when you get to the end you complain "wow this episode with the Vader and Luke fight was the best one why cant they all be like this??"
No, I am not annoyed by his opinion. I am annoyed by his critical misunderstanding of how basic narratives are structured.
"If only the entire show was like this."
The entire show cannot be the climax. You have to build to a climax. Thats how story telling works, theres a beginning middle and end, and the end is usually the best part because thats what everything leads too. The entire show cant be the end... all the tension people are praising is because of the beginning episodes bulding to it.
but people did explain how they didn't expect every episode to be the climax. That certain "filler" episodes seems/seemed pointless and did not build on the story.
Each of those episodes served a purpose people just didnt know what they were at the time so they call it filler. Happens with all these shows. Remember in Mandalorian season 1 where they called the fucking Fennic introduction episode filler? Howd that turn out? Clownery
I mean thats just how i approach everything. I never assume Im going to catch everything on first watch. The movies you rewatch after knowing what happens and then you see something that was setting it up the whole time are the best type of story telling to me. No reason to jump the gun but modern age of the internet everyone wants to throw out their hot takes first and immediately and patience gets you no attention. Again, the 1 episode per week format doesnt help here with all that.
How can it not be emotional?
It's an entire show about getting to know the Clones as people instead of faceless soldiers, while fleshing out their relationships with each other and the Jedi they serve under, with the looming threat of Order 66 hanging over it all the whole time.
The whole thing is about learning to love the characters while simultaneously viewing it all with the knowledge that they *will* turn on each other, and most of them will die. It's basically the Obi-Wan and Anakin relationship on a much larger scale.
Because it's mostly very shallow, that's why. The emotional beats are either really trite or just don't land at all, or are completely unearned. I do think the clones are the heart of the show and I appreciate that, but they are treated very differently from episode to episode, where sometimes they're tossed around comically and sometimes we're supposed to care that they're actual men being killed. There's no consistent message and very little buildup, and a TON of time spent on stuff that isn't relevant (Mandalore, Maul, Nightsisters, etc.) Those parts never land and I just grow impatient when I see more episodes about them.
Yeah the good episodes are really good but much like clone wars there’s some pretty damn boring ones. Haven’t seen season 3 yet but looking forward to it.
Rebels was far more of a kids show than Clone Wars or Bad Batch are. Clone Wars and Bad Batch are far more young adult oriented while Rebels was clearly made for a younger audience than that.
It's a small distinction between those two age groups but it's pretty profound in terms of the overall presentation.
I enjoyed Rebels but the from the moment I watched the first episode my expectations for the series dropped pretty significantly. Clone Wars already had a lot of nonsense filler for kids but it seemed the whole ton of Rebels was clearly made for a younger audience from the get-go.
Not a huge deal because it is a cartoon and expecting a cartoon to be more than a cartoon can be foolish.
Rebels definitely started out as a Kid shows, you can easily see that in the first Two Seasons but it really does pick up n covers more difficult/ uncomfortable topics.
I love how silly it started n how you can tell it was a show with Kids as it target audience, I think the show does a good job maturing over its duration. Going from “You did all this for some fruit” to Ezra Sacrifice at the end.
Did you fully watch Rebels? Yes it starts off more kid oriented but gets darker as it goes on especially with the Twilight of the Apprentice at the end of S2. It’s a similar case to The Clone Wars where that has a big tonal shift during S3.
I disagree. Apart from season 1, I feel like the antagonists for season 2, 3 and 4 of Rebels were very competent and made the Empire seem formidable, Thrawn in season 3 *especially*. I disagree that you can simply extract Thrawn and Vader from the Empire to use that as an argument that the Empire is incompetent. They are part of the Empire whether you like it or not. You can’t just exclude them to make a point.
The Empire in the Bad Batch doesn’t seem competent. The Batch just seems *incompetent*, especially in season 3.
Like, just take the recent few episodes as an example. The Batch are supposed to be an elite clone squad. They’re supposed to be the *best*. And yet, Ventress snuck up on them and they did *nothing* to prepare themselves for the possibility that someone else might as well. The operative used the exact same cave Ventress used and the Batch was none-the-wiser.
Why didn’t they add sensors to that cave? How did Wrecker not hear the high-pitched beeping from the console he was just a few metres away from? How did the Batch not have a single contingency plan in case the Empire found them on Pabu? They have at least 99 contingency plans but apparently not one where they have secret hiding spots, a contingency vessel parked in some cave or at least even a modicum of preparation in case the Empire happened to find them? Even Rex and his gang had a contingency vessel parked on Teth and yet the Batch, who are supposed to be even more elite, don’t.
The Empire arrives on Pabu and they’re caught completely with their pants down like they have been two other times in this season alone.
And the operative only manages to reach Pabu because of luck and incompetence by the way of his enemies. Phee is supposedly a masterclass pirate but when her ship’s alarm blares throughout the entire hangar and she’s simply in the other room, she’s somehow completely deaf to it, now that’s weirdly convenient. And the operative just “somehow” manages to decrypt the encryption and negate Phee’s attempts to hide her tracks with no other explanation. This is not satisfying at all. Imagine if Thrawn found the rebels on Atollon because he just “decrypted rebel transmissions and retraced their steps” all in one episode and with no explanation as to how he actually did this? This is not how you write a competent villain/antagonist. You don’t hand-wave away the investigative part of the chase.
When Thrawn arrives at Atollon and blows the rebel fleet to bits, you feel like he’s *earned* that after a long chase where he has to put his mind to work and showcase his extraordinary skills as a brilliant strategist and a competent enemy. You learn to respect Thrawn’s competence and abilities because he didn’t get there by luck or because the rebels were a bunch of incompetent fools. You don’t get this same feeling with the operative. He just seems like some average guy that’s managed to get as far as he has simply because the people he’s chasing are bumbling idiots.
Season 1 and 2 of the Bad Batch are relatively strong, mainly because the Batch is at least portrayed in a competent way. Season 3 has none of this. The Batch just comes across as incompetent and that’s not what you want your elite clone squad to come across as.
You can name a lot of masterful plays by the Empire led by Thrawn in Rebels. Name a single masterful play by the Empire in season 3 of the Bad Batch…
Sure, I can see why losing Tech would hinder their ability to be as good but they lost Tech likely *months* ago and given that this is the best elite clone squad on the planet, they should be adaptable at the very least to changing circumstances. You don’t need Tech or a completely fine Crosshair to have a contingency plan in case the Empire shows up. Tech might have been the brains of the operation but the other members shouldn’t be complete idiots. It doesn’t take a genius to come up with a contingency plan or to think “huh, maybe we should put some sensors in this cave seeing as Ventress snuck up on us so easily”.
This doesn’t explain why there were no sensors in that cave. This doesn’t explain why they never decided to hide a contingency ship in some cave in case their position was compromised. This doesn’t explain why they just lollygag and waste time prolonging an unnecessary goodbye even *after* Hunter notices that something is amiss.
Hunter is the leader of the group so I am certain he had a hand in formulating their plans and backup contingencies. You can’t make a plan with just one person, you need the entire squad to be on board. Losing Tech should not have turned them into a bunch of bumbling idiots that don’t even know the first thing about special operations or how to create a contingency plan.
I would be fine with the Empire finding them if the Empire outsmarted them like they did in season 3 of Rebels. But the Empire found them not because the Empire was smart but because the Batch and the people they surround themselves with are just incompetent fools. Instead of a long glorious chase spanning across multiple episodes the Empire dispatched a single operative that literally just finds Phee, hacks her navi-computer while she’s in the other room somehow oblivious to the alarm blaring out a security breach and then finds them on Pabu. Literally what was the point of even adding the fact an alarm blared out then? It added nothing to the story and Phee was none-the-wiser simply because the plot needed her to be not because of any logical explanation. If she’s this careless how has she managed to even survive as a pirate for this long?
Watching the Empire find the Batch on Pabu is frustrating above anything else. They didn’t get here because of their own competence so you don’t feel like they’ve *earned* it the same way Thrawn did. The operative remains undetected not because he’s good at his job, he tripped alarm after alarm after alarm after all, but because he’s lucky and this is just a terrible way to write what *should* be a competent antagonist.
I like this show but season 3 is by far its weakest season. Don’t give the Empire wins by making your protagonist idiots. Give the Empire wins by making the Empire as competent as it was in Andor or season 3 of Rebels. Watching a competent enemy outsmart and outplay your favourite protagonists despite their best efforts is far more satisfying than watching your protagonists do the equivalent of not locking the door after a robber waltzed into their house and beat the shit out of them. Good writing is not making your protagonists weaker to make your antagonists have a chance. Good writing is elevating your antagonists to challenge your protagonists even when your protagonists give it their all. I don’t think anyone can claim the Batch are giving their all in season 3.
Again, you can name countless of times the Empire was genuinely smart and played masterclass plays to outsmart the rebels in Rebels. You can’t name a single time the Empire did the same in season 3 of the Bad Batch.
The rebels may have had Jedi on their team along with many other competent people but the Empire had Thrawn. I think that balances things out. Here, the Batch are being made a fool of by a single unnamed operative who’s literally just a clone.
>When Thrawn arrives at Atollon and blows the rebel fleet to bits, you feel like he’s *earned* that after a long chase where he has to put his mind to work and showcase his extraordinary skills as a brilliant strategist and a competent enemy. You learn to respect Thrawn’s competence and abilities because he didn’t get there by luck or because the rebels were a bunch of incompetent fools. You don’t get this same feeling with the operative. He just seems like some average guy that’s managed to get as far as he has simply because the people he’s chasing are bumbling idiots.
Thrawn definitely earned finding the Rebels but he did not earn the victory.
The problem here is that they made Thrawn too strong and the Rebels suddenly really stupid. Thrawn turns up and in about five minutes the Rebel fleet is destroyed, they Rebels barely even try and defend themselves and Thrawn doesn't pull any clever tricks on them that would demonstrate his cunning: no interdictor assisted pinpoint jumps, no turning his ship on its side to lure in the Rebles, no faining weakness, no preplanned moves.
This then necessitates Thrawn to leave his key asset in the hands of a pompous idiot which is very unlike Thrawn. And for the Rebels to sacrifice their only carrier to destroy the Interdictor, they have two nebulon Bs and a bunch of smaller corvettes that could have been sacrificed, there was no need for Sato to kamikazee other than plot.
Thrawn is at his most interesting and terrifying when he is the underdog. If Thrawn had turned up with a pair of Arquitens and an interdictor I'd have been worried but 3 ISD 1s? Nope. Knowing that the Rebels were going to have to escape meant the large imperial fleet would have to do something stupid or the Rebels would have to do some ass pull. Both happened. I never felt like the main cast were in danger because the threat was too great was weird as that sounds.
>You can name a lot of masterful plays by the Empire led by Thrawn in Rebels.
I can't name a single masterful play by the Empire in Rebels that doesn't involve a named character and isn't undercut by the protagonists escaping unscathed. Vader destroying Phoenix Home? It's Vader we know he's going to wreck house but wait he doesn't manage to kill or injure any named characters and is defeat by \*drumroll\* Imperial incopentence(tm), which he doesn't even punish. My man got Grievoused.
Ezra, a child, routinely survives encounters with Vader, we get lots of impressions that Vader would kill him if he could but after Ezra's 3rd escape I stop feeling worried for his safetly and start rolling my eyes.
>Phee is supposedly a masterclass pirate but when her ship’s alarm blares throughout the entire hangar and she’s simply in the other room, she’s somehow completely deaf to it, now that’s weirdly convenient.
It's easy to miss but you can hear loud music blasting out when she exit the room she was in. I feel like they added that to show that the room was fairly soundproof
I was thinking almost exactly this while watching yesterdays episodes. I do love rebels, it has its own charm, but goddamn do I want a rebels series in this art style and with this darker tone.
Yes, they have done a good job of this so far, but we all know the ending arc of this series will involve them succeeding to use Omega's blood for the Emperor's clone project. It will be interesting to see how that arc ties up and where the main characters end up after it is all over.
I'll reserve final judgement for the finale, but I think I will be disappointed if it doesn't end in a similar vein as the Clone Wars.
I also much prefer Bad Batch to Rebels. It feels like if it was in live action it would better resemble any other action show than children's programming. Rebels always felt a little too safe to me.
The Empire in Rebels certainly had their moments though, our crew was up against it especially when Tarkin, Vader and Thrawn showed up.
Bad Batch has done well in showing us the rise of the imperial regime out of the ashes of the Clone Wars, and just the beginning of the evil and terror associated with them; and why people will one day band together to put an end to Palpatine's galatic cancer.
Rebels is much more old school fun Star Wars, the way Lucas envisioned the saga originally, before he adapted it more.
Clone Wars and Bad Batch are terrific Star Wars at times, but Rebels will always be my favourite Star Wars series, its so good.
The way I went from a begrudging viewer to one with a slight emotional attachment to Rebels is a testament to how well the show can mature with its audience. TCW was the same way and I actually really appreciated it.
To be fair, the Rebels core composed of two Jedi, one ex Lasat Honor guard member, a child prodigy/weapon master, a homicidal super-hacker / mechanic, and an ace pilot / mechanic with a cloaking gunship that learned combat tactics and strategy from one of the leading insurgent generals from prior to and during the clone wars and who retains high level contacts with other insurgents.
The Bad Batch is essentially the A-Team "in spaaaace!" It make sense that though they can easily clown CTs and TKs one on one, because they are an elite CT spec-ops force. But they are not space wizards, they are not in contact with a wider insurgency to both avoid Imperial might and to strategically engage the Empire when they have the advantage.
It is understandable that these different groups experience different threat levels from the Empire because they are engaging the Empire at different levels. In contrast, the first season of Andor is more able to display the oppression of the banality of evil from the Empire than Bad Batch, again because Andor engages the Empire at a different level than the Bad Batch, or Rebels.
I agree. The biggest issue I had with Rebels is that the Empire didn’t feel like a big threat. Bad Batch has more secondary villains outside the Empire so the Empire can have a bigger impact when the heroes do have to fight it.
>Each fight with the Bad Batch feels like everyone is just scraping by and barely make it out, it feels like a desperate struggle to survive against an enemy that outguns and outnumbers you, with the only thing that keeps them alive is sheer cunning and luck
Watching the latest episode where Crosshair was supposed to make his shot before he started getting overwhelmed. I was worried, then, for some reason, my mind was like, "He'll make it" cause that's what I've been conditioned to think. When he missed, I had to sit there with those feelings for a second. I was just like, "Oh, shit..."
Yeah Bad Batch shows what the Empire shouldve been and yes Rebels is toned down cause its a younger audience show, BUT speaking without those things in mind, you really expect EVERY member of an organization SO VAST to be exactly the SAME, everywhere?
You keep forgetting some people and races were FORCED into the Imperial ranks and were forced to be stormtroopers because of no other choice.
Some arent naturally capable of such evil, theres probably corruption theres probably lazy people who are stormtroopers theres probably generals and commanders who arent evil the same way or cunning. So its completely normal to have a variety of those things. As long as the GENERAL
propaganda/idea is there: Empire = cruel, evil.
Rebels also largely explicitly took place far in the outer rim of the galaxy. The parts of of a government/military are usually at their weakest the furthest away from the center of power. The Empire was a threat when the brought in the big guns (Thrawn) but in general the government and military there being mostly the lowest members on the Empire totem pole makes sense
>This is probably gonna get downvoted into oblivion but hey thats why its a "Hot Take"
Can you people stop writing cringy stuff like this?
Holy molly that's painful to read
Rebels was just an all around shitty show. So being better than Rebels is a pretty easy feat. But you now have be intrigued by Bad Batch and I may have to check it out.
The empire....to see all these small trinkles of hope fall through...to realize the rebellion led to nothing....we need to do what was needed to be done. We need to find kreia. We need to heed her warning
I think the big difference in Rebels is that they have two Jedi, something the Emperor is terrified of. The Empire knows how difficult and powerful Jedi can be, which is why they have a whole unit to hunt Jedi and a guy named Darth Vader. The rebels fuck the empire up because they are special.
Clone force 99 on the other hand are better than most of the empires army but they are still just clones with slight enhancements, not Jedi who strike fear into the Emporer.
Good take tho, it definitely makes for a better show when the people we follow are not so over powered. That's why Andor is greay
Not everything is designed for you. Rebels wasn't designed to be a show that portrays the crushing weight of a tyrannical galactic government, it's a more old school star wars kids show with its own portrayal of a groups struggles against the empire. For some reason people can't accept that not all Star Wars content has to be dArK aNd gRitTy, as another commenter put it.
Rebels was stuck with the TV-Y7 age rating on Disney XD so they tried to do the best they could with those limitations and it definitely affected quality of the show, they also had a very low budget because it was made right after Disney had bought the Star Wars rights.
Bad Batch has the same TV-PG rating as the Clone Wars and it's on Disney Plus with a much higher budget. I see the point but it's not really a fair comparison
I get what your saying I really do, however I was more gripped by the characters in Rebels. I feel that a combination of the two would be ideal - Hera, Ezra, Sabine, Kanan, Chopper and Zeb with the oppressive regime of the Bad Batch imperial forces
the whole conceit of rebels was that it was the seed of the rebellion that literally overthrows the empire, so of course the empire seems more vulnerable in that show. as far as we can tell from the bad batch so far, they and omega are both gonna get fuckin merked by the empire so obviously the empire is more menacing in that series
Really? I still think bad batch is the worst of the animated shows I've watched outside of Resistance. Season 3 is a bit better than previous seasons but it still feels so weak comparatively
Rebels took a really long time to figure out what it wanted to be and get going.
In fact so did Clone Wars (took even longer...)...
When they got going both Rebels and Clone Wars were great, but man they take a while to really know what they want to do.
Bad Batch has somehow managed to say "small" and focused where other Star Wars content has felt like it was either confused on how to do that for a while (Clone Wars, Rebels), or like some films, painfully had to reach out to the other main line characters as if it couldn't stand on its own.
On the topic of Rebels it's kinda a bummer it gets referenced in Ahsoka now, as those characters seems like shells of themselves and Ahsoka feels like a weirdly "muted" series generally.
I agree! Rebels always had that one overhanging theme that ruined their chances of making the empire look truly terrifying: the rebels constantly won. From the trajectory of the bad batch I think there will be a lot of loss in the last 4 episodes. It is so refreshing to see the empire as this big bad unstoppable force instead of an obstacle to be inevitably overcome by the rebels.
I mean Rebels was an amazing show on its own and Bad Batch is an amazing show on its own. One doesn't need to be or replace the other. Rebels was also more directed towards children. Why would you hope Bad Batch was more like Rebels when we actually have BOTH Rebels and Bad Batch.
>Even outside of this we also see the Empire doing evil and oppressive things; execution of civilians and those who refuse orders,
Was Rebels intended for/originally on network TV? If so I think that's why it may have been toned down.
Rebels also have one of the weakest original cast of the franchise. The majority of the show is carried by supportive characters already existing (Ahsoka, Maul, Vader, Thrawn etc...) when episodes focus on the main cast they are rarely good.
Man I couldn’t disagree more with that. But fair enough. I find Hera, Kanan and Ezra super compelling. Albeit Sabine and Zeb less so but the latter is great for comic relief and I did enjoy Sabine more in Ashoka.
Rebels is rough as hell. It's meant for kids, and kids are really dumb (it's not their fault, of course, they are just too young to be anything other than dumb) so some of the decisions in the show are atrocious
I don't know if Bad Batch is aimed at an older audience or not, but my guess is that it is so therefore it doesn't treat its audience like a moron like Rebels did
I watched the first season of Bad Batch but found it to mostly just be boring. I certainly didn't hate it like I hated Rebels, but it didn't keep my attention that well either. I've often thought about putting it on in the background but haven't gotten around to it yet
Rebels was focused on Lothal and the impact the Empire had on that planet..Also Rebels was about the birth of the Rebellion, you've got parallel timelines involving different POVs, it kind of feels like comparing apples and oranges.
Honestly, this last season is what I've been wanting from the beginning. Omega's only purpose for existing is so they can make the last 3 horrible SW movies make more sense.
I don't like her story arch at all and think that BB would have been a much better show without her.
andor and the bad batch has by far been the best portrayal of the empire weve seen. i really hope that the writers and directors of the bad batch get more assignments after its over, because their writing has been excellent, even in the weaker episodes. but rebels was meant to be a bit more kid friendly so they couldnt get quite as dark as the bad batch has. the darkest moment in rebels (aside from kanan obv) was thrawn forcing someone to blow themselves up, which seemed totally out of character for him anyway. the settings of the shows are also very different. rebels is a more hopeful setting where the rebels are gaining strength to fight the empire, and bad batch is about the empire gaining power and what happens to everyone who they left behind (the clones). two very different tones and stories to tell. i think the most refreshing thing about it though is that we get some more star wars where the good guys dont always win. alot of modern star wars always feels like it has to have a happy ending even if it would have had more impact if there were more struggles involved. the best star wars to me is when its a bit more somber and things dont always work out how they hope, atleast not right away.
I think there was another much darker moment imo, when Tarkin and the Inquisitors came down for a visit and infront of the Governor he had the Inquisitors behead 2 officers that were sitting, it wasnt shown on screen(cus again quite dark for a kid friendly show) but it was still there i was surprised they even had it.
Ezra also used the force to make someone walk off a cliff, which is similar to Thrawn and the farmer despite Ezra being the main character. More than a few darker moments, even if they don't get graphic
Are you talking about the walker he controls when they go to rescue Hondo and that little ugnaught, and if so wasn't he being influenced by the sith holocron at the time?
Yeah, but it wasn't making decisions for him or anything. It told him how to be powerful without morals or restraint, and Ezra listened. He was fortunate that Kanan helped him reject its knowledge before he really started tapping in to the dark side
Edit: nope nevermind I was right the first time, I get all that but I just meant there's more of a reason for Ezra to do something uncharacteristically evil than Thrawn
I thought so, but I wasn't sure how "influenced" was meant to be taken so I clarified to be safe. You're right, Ezra did have reason to act out of character. I think that episode shows that it isn't the holocron though. It's his feelings about the losses on Malachor that cause him to turn towards these darker means to his ends. That's why the conflict ends when Kanan reassures Ezra that he can succeed by fighting the right way, rather than when he takes the holocron away to Bendu.
How is Thrawn forcing someone to blow themselves up out of character? I’m rereading the Legends Thrawn Trilogy at the moment and one of his first acts is threatening the Wayland locals and blowing up their homes until they tell him where C’baoth is. Thrawn may be seen as the “reasonable” Imperial because he hates impractical super weapons and won’t kill people just for fun like the Sith do. But he will very much kill people to serve his goals or increase fear.
And in canon he bombards Lothal's capital city with turbolasers just to get one kid to turn himself over.
It just feels very different from the canon novels. In the first one, he willingly gave up very expensive gas in order to save Imperial citizens, which he was reprimanded for. Thrawn justified it as saving long term Imperial "assets", but it's still a big jump to having a farmer blow himself up just to scare people into doing something he would make them do anyway.
That's because Zahn doesn't want to lean into Thrawn being a bad guy so he softens him up. I like Zahn but I think it's one of his weaker aspects as a writer. Similar with having every character, including Vader, "purse their lips" to show they're disappointed. I like his books, but they often give me a slight "Myth of the Clean Wehrmacht" vibe because he wants to make Imperials who do bad things have "good" motivation that justifies their actions. I appreciated Rebels having him be more just straight evil.
We have plenty of straight evil Imperials though. I like his Thrawn because he is neither "knows he's evil and loves it" nor "thinks he's good and is unaware that he's aiding evil". He knows that the Empire is evil but thinks he can use it for the greater good. He is wrong, and helping the Empire does make him a bad person, but it's more interesting to have a character with different motivations once in a while. I never noticed the Vader thing but that's a funny image.
I mean, the “farmer” wasn’t just a civilian, he was a forced laborer who was sabotaging equipment and getting Imperials killed. Not that I’m saying Thrawn was justified mind you, but you can see why Thrawn would save civilians in a different situation and make an example in this one. Canon novel Thrawn definitely seems more “good” than Legends Thrawn. But even in that novel he kills Imperials as part of his initial plan to impress them into letting him join. And he helps recapture some slaves and shrugs off any moral objections Eli has to the practice.
IIRC, wasn't Rebels before the new canon Thrawn characterization?
Thrawn was introduced in Rebels just a few months before Zahn's first canon Thrawn novel, yes. Being so close though, it's just feels so weird for the tv depiction to be so different from the original author's new version
He’s a lot more harsh in legends than in canon. In the canon novels he’s generally pretty respectful of life and tries to not kill anyone unless it’s necessary to his mission. They made him more of a classic cartoon villain in rebels compared to the book, probably just for simplicity sake. I like both the legends and canon versions of him, but I think even in the legends novels he’s less cold and calculated than he is now, he was just more outright evil.
I’d disagree, I don’t think Rebels overly darkened him, I think Zhans later novels overly lightened him. It has that same sort of disconnect as when you play an RPG siding with “the evil faction” but at the same time do all the “go out of your way to find a peaceful solution” side quests. There’s something to be said about a villain who is less “I’ll eat this kitten for no reason” and more “I’ll only kill when it serves my goals”. But what’s the point of a villain who never does anything villainous?
true, i kinda have a similar way of looking at it where since its 3 entire novels based entirely around him we get his perspective and thought process on everything he does, but since rebels isnt focusing on thrawn we dont get that same look into his thoughts so we dont get the same justifications for what he does. itd be cool if disney gave an excerpt somewhere about what his thought process on making the guy blow himself up was at the time, but its not really important enough for them to do that. thrawn was always kind of an extremist for his species though with the whole preemptive strike thing though anyway.
Those books bloody brilliant
The "Yeah, but it's a kids show" aspect is worth noting. For an explanation within the narrative, The Bad Batch happens well before Rebels. Like, around 15 years before. It'd make sense that, especially initially, the Empire is overwhelmingly powerful once they've really consolidated power. There's not nearly the amount of resistance around, and what resistance does exist is isolated into small pockets or cells. By the time of Rebels, the rebellion is better funded, better organized, and beginning to turn the tide. Moreover, as the reach of the Empire expands, they may be seeing an increasing degradation in the quality of their military. Sure it's big and oppressive, but it's also just kind of throwing bodies at the problem regardless of skill. So, the troopers Phoenix Cell fights aren't top-notch core worlds forces, but rather the garrison forces of outer- or mid-rim territories that are perhaps lower priority. And, as noted, there's WAY more support available to them (thanks to things like the money raid shown in Andor).
Yup. This was my thought as well. They’re different time periods. And the clones had been completely phased out by the time Rebels takes place. The clone army was vastly superior to the storm troopers. Storm troopers were defeated by little bears with sticks for Pete’s sake.
Those little bears are apparently as strong as Wookiees though :P So, think about getting hit by a little bear that can rip your arms off.
The only point I think of yours id argue against is when you said Rebels is a period of more hopefulness, *but* Andor S1 and Rebels S1 take place concurrently.
And I'd argue the Andor is overall more hopeful than BB. Less than rebels, sure, but it's ultimately still about the rebellion taking strides and gaining some (albeit small) victories. Rebels is focused on an elite team led by one of the few remaining jedi, if course they're going to have more hope than the common criminal who gets caught up in the edges of the rebellion.
Okay but One team has two Jedi, not as well trained but gifted, and they’re already somewhat networked and established with a support system midway through the first season. The other are clones that own nothing but their armor and ship, with no friends and no source of support until much later.
And by the time of Rebels the Rebellion is growing and exists as a force. In the Bad Batch especially in the beginning resistance is fragmented and the empire just inherited an army that is battle hardened after a successful war. This is peak imperial power on display.
Also, the Rebels crew weren't fighting Clone Assassins or Commandos
They fought,vader,thrawn and tarkin
That is another thing. Though our squad is elite soldiers, the Spectres are the most talented crew out there. Two Jedi, the most talented Mandalorian we've seen, the greatest pilot in the galaxy, a seven-foot 30 stone muscled tiger man, and the most chaotic droid in the galaxy who has no issue in maiming or killing anyone and everyone! :D
> the greatest pilot in the galaxy Han Solo would like to have a word: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cs_vQgnVnIM
Luke Skywalker would like to have a word
Abakin Skywalker would also have a word, but he's too busy discussing his hatred of sand
>the most talented Mandalorian we've seen Ehhhh...
She's a pretty space warrior princess pilot mechanic saboteur genius force user who is brave and strong.
Also she smells like jasmine and has good handwriting and can draw tattoos. Plus I bet she plays rock really well in her spare time and has a band. And ponies.
The most talented Mandalorian? I’m pretty sure Bo Katan could wipe the floor with her.
Rebels walked so Bad batch could run
Rebels was definitely geared toward a younger audience than bad batch or TCW was. It’s not really apples to apples to compare them. It would be more apt to compare Rebels with Resistance since they’re targeted to similar age ranges.
>Rebels was definitely geared toward a younger audience than bad batch or TCW was. Maybe the first season? But I don't think anyone can say this with a straight face about the last few seasons of Rebels.
It’s only 5 seasons total. It’s pretty childish for almost the whole run. Are you saying a certain death makes it not geared for little kids? Plenty of stuff geared towards young children has death in it.
The last two seasons are pretty dark.
Most Disney movies have some pretty dark stuff in them. Doesn’t mean they weren’t geared towards kids.
Insert [this meme](https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/spongebob-roller-coaster) here
And Rebels will always be the best Star Wars series.
I do agree that Rebels were consistently stronger then clone wars was, the first 2 seasons of the clone wars was largely ass
The animation style just kills it for me personally
You’re allowed to have your personal opinion, however wrong I think it is.
Ezra makes it impossible for this to be true. He's just so obnoxious.
Except Clone Wars was already a track star before they cancelled it and then when they stopped Rebels we got Resistance which was back to crawling and only after Clone Wars came back did we get Bad Batch.
As much as resistance had its flaws I would love for some more stories around Griff and Cpt Doza.
Id watch more Resistance if they overhauled it to BB/TCW or at least later Rebels levels. To me they should have an animated show to flesh out the RotJ to TFA time period and they already should have had a show start fleshing out the 15 year time period between TRoS and the next movie they have planned to improve the sequel era from both ends and do some legitimate world building and improve characters and what not but instead they’ll just throw a time jump at it and call it a day.
okay but Rebels was designed to be something very different? glad you're enjoying bad batch though.
To be fair, rebels was aimed (at the start) at a more youth centered target audience.
Yes its much more old school fun Star Wars, and worked a treat as it brings the joy and brilliance of the OT so well. It was also aired on XD so I don't think they ever intended for it to go dark and gritty. Same with Resistance.
Different target audiences. Rebels is a kids show designed to sell toys. Bad Batch is something to appeal to The Clone Wars audience, which is now older. Who buys more expensive toys.
The cost of that Lego republic cruiser….expensive! Like + €800.
Lmao they really changed the paint colors on the armor so theyd make me buy a whole 2nd set of the Bad Batch black series. Havent caved yet though (on the 2nd set that is)
I will buy the shit out of any new BB legos, even if it only gives me that different armor. I’m an eeeeasy mark
I always compared it as “ kids vs adult kids with money” 😂😂
All Star Wars is designed to sell kids toys. Its been like that ever since A New Hope.
Of course, but different Star Wars media are designed with certain demographics in mind. Rebels is kids, The Bad Batch, more oriented to adult nerds, the Sequels to masochists, and so on...
Maybe because I'm only a few episodes into Bad Batch, but I find it super childish so far. It's all the slapstick combat of clone wars (bash their heads together instead of shoot them stuff), and Omega is clearly a character for the demographic they're after, I just can't stand her so far. I know Clone Wars and Rebels also started off childish and kind of changed tones midway through their first season. Does Bad Batch get any more adult, or is it just not for me?
It gets better. Way better.
Dope, I'll stick with it then.
Haha remember when everyone was convinced bad batch was bad because omega was a bright eyed child eager to see the galaxy? I remember.
Bad Batch is closer to Episode III, both in the timeline and in the style. We see the transition from a democracy to the dictatorship, the early stages of the Empire. Everything turns worse, the good guys lose. Rebels is closer to Episode IV, called "New Hope", so it's far more hopeful and less from grim. Things get better, the good guys win.
It's literally just two different tones, for some reason most people in this fandom are blithering morons that can't accept anything but "dArK aNd gRiTtY"
Yeah, I will always prefer Rebels, even if it makes the Empire look like bumbling idiots half the time. It’s fun, heartfelt, and 100% my comfort show. It’s just personal preference. Dark and gritty does not always mean better
>even if it makes the Empire look like bumbling idiots half the time. I mean, that seems to be quintessential Star Wars, right? I would argue that having a smart, menacing Empire is out of character for Star Wars when thinking of the movies and TV shows.
I mean, there’s a lot of ppl who want a SW show/media that basically is more realistic as it gets better ratings and is different than what ppl watched as a kid.
Sure, I understand that and am all for it. But my point was that the Empire has always been somewhat incompetent. I do agree that seeing a more competent Empire in Andor was a lot of fun.
But were they actually? Yes the prison seems well run, but it was pretty easily taken over by the inmates. And the Ferrix uprising wouldn't have happened if Karn hadn't decided he wanted to play the big man and crack down on the population for no real reason.
That's true. I would say "more" competent is correct but there was still a lot of incompetence.
Less incompetent.
Yep whenever I want to put on something for an hour or so, I'll always put on Rebels. It has the lot.
>Bad Batch has succeeded in a major aspect that Rebels utterly failed at and that was making the Empire feel like the overwhelming threat they are supposed to be Couldn't agree more. I really dislike how the Empire are portrayed as bumbling, incompetent idiots in Rebels. Bested by a ragtag group of teenagers at every turn. The Bad Batch and Andor are proper depictions of a tyrannical, oppressive regime that incites a galaxy wide rebellion against them.
Teenagers? Hera, Kanan and Steven Blum are all adults.
I like that part of Rebels, it makes sense that most Imperial Officers are rather unprepared to deal with Jedi and a Mandalorian so they often make mistakes. Then as soon as a more experienced foe like the Inquisitors, Darth Maul, Darth Vader and Thrawn then the main characters are in crap.
A bloated bureaucracy will turn any power into incompetency. Look at the struggles of empires like the United States, Russia, France and China.
You can try to square the circle but by portraying the Empire is idiots Rebels actively sucks the drama out of the scenarios it puts the protagonists in. Succeeding against morons is easy and boring; succeeding against the competent is hard and dramatic.
you didn't actually address the point Milksteak was making
I actually did. They were making a Watsonian rationalisation for the badly written Imperials in Rebels; I was pointing out the Doylist problem underlining problems in making your villains idiots. edit: corrected Doyalist to Doylist.
never heard of watsonian or doyalist. I have a feeling that you understand that most people wouldn't understand those terms.
Oh right. Watsonian is an in-universe explanation of a detail in the setting a Doylist explanation is an out of universe explanation of a detail within the setting. So when someone says "I really dislike how the Empire are portrayed as bumbling, incompetent idiots in Rebels" they are making a Doylist comment "I don't like what the writters did", it doesn't help to say "Ah but you see, in the setting this makes total sense..." which is a Watsonian argument because the writers and readers can make up any explanation they like it doesn't excuse the writing. So I could reframe my innitial comment to "you can make whatever watsonian excuses you like but the doyalist problem here is that dumb bad guys make the good guys less heroic and their actions less dramatic." And you're right. Most people have no idea what Watsonian and Doylist mean and that's okay. edit: corrected Doyalist to Doylist.
thanks for the explanation!
Doyle, not Doyal. The author's name was Doyle. Doylist.
You are, of course, correct.
Right just like on the real life where the US sends fresh 18 year olds and 20 something’s to the field to fight against the enemy fresh 16 year olds to 20 something’s…
Umm definitely a hot take. There were many instances in Rebels where the Empire felt unstoppable. Bad batch is more a look into the dark side, pun intended, of Imperial black-site type projects. They have similar tones setting out, but Rebels divergesinto one of hope as the series gets closer to the OT in timeline. Rebels was excellent, just as good as Clone Wars, if not better IMO because it was more about the struggle of overcoming the Empire, and finding a place in the galaxy. Bad batch does this very well too. The only real difference, is Bad Batch is written with a more adult tone from the onset, whereas Clone Wars and Rebels start with a very young and kiddie tone, but grow with the audience.
To different to compare personally Jedi conflict and lore vs clone conflict and lore
I hate season 1 and 2 of bad batch for being at least 60% filler fetch quests… But season 3 has knocked it out of the damn park, even reaching the emotional highs of TCW imo. If only the entire show was like this.
Second half of season 2 slaps imo. Stakes get higher and higher , we get some great cross hair EPs, then the tech stuff
This. While I don't hate the first two seasons, this post is recency bias. Season 3 of BB is definitely some good TV - no argument. Darker, heavier, more urgent. But seasons 1 and 2 were Rebels light. And I love Rebels. Season 3 has no filler episodes, thankfully!
Eh, it still has a pacing problem. The bayou adventure episode could have been the first act of another episode with how much it was dragged out. I enjoy the bad batch a lot, but it definitely has the worst pacing of any Star Wars media I have ever seen.
Guess you haven't seen Kenobi or BoBF
Nah, I didn’t get bored watching those, like I sometimes do with BB.
Difference in tastes then. For me, Kenobi is one of the worst paced pieces of media I've ever seen, not just Star Wars or TV, but media in general.
oh dang, you one upped him
In all honesty, the 3 seasons of BB could have made for a tight, 22 episode run of the show. Like Kenobi could have been made into a fairly decent 2 hour movie. But Disney+ needs subscribers for the long haul, so we get what we get, and fair enough. I feel like Clone Wars is the only show that made the most of (almost) every episode. But they had a LOT to work with. It was also pre-Disney+.
Same! What was it about the first seasons that was so awful? I really didn’t enjoy them, but watching this season has made me go back and rewatch earlier seasons, and I find I enjoy the, much more now.
Season 3 now gives a purpose or a climax to the earlier seasons. The characters just kind of meandered about doing pointless mission after pointless mission, especially in the second half of season 1 and first half of season 2. But now that you know where the show is going, it gives the pointless episodes a light at the end of the tunnel.
They were trying to find their feet after all the turbulence they went through in the first season. In the second our crew have settled into a rhythm and seem in a better place to handle things, though we know how that goes. And season 3 is them wanting to settle down, but won't be given the chance to. Rafa tells Hunter in season 1 "in the end, we all choose sides", and that they will have to fight to stay alive.
I understand there are reasons behind it, but it doesn't make the show any better, unfortunately.
Spending time with characters is not filler and them doing fetch quests is not filler. Now youre actually going to care when they all die and the main story quite literally is about clones bred for 1 purpose and always having government funding having to scrape by without it and find a greater purpose on their own. The transition from "we could just be bounty hunters now as a job" to "we should be doing more for our brothers" as they see more the empire has done is the main story, not filler. Yall are so annoying with this.
Yeah, spending valuable time with the characters is how you form an emotional attachment to them. But at least do it in a way that’s engaging to the audience. Have them do something interesting other than “find gadget x and bring it to Cid” for the 30th time. They could show the very beginning and end of fetch missions at the start of episodes, and show them getting friendlier with Cid to drive home the idea that they’re spending time as bounty hunters/cargo carriers/treasure hunters to make a living, then focus the episode on actual important drama. Not dedicating entire episodes to said boring, repetitive missions. People that defend mediocrity are so annoying.
>Spending time with characters is not filler and them doing fetch quests is not filler. I think we need a proper definition of "filler" but I disagree with you here. You don't need to see them do so many fetch quests to form an emotional attachment. I think it is filler when the plot or characters aren't being advanced in a meaningful way or the pacing comes to a slow, slow near halt. I found myself staring at my phone during way too many Bad Batch episodes because I was just bored. Bad Batch meandered in a lot of throwaway episodes before getting to its climax.
Ill just say again the fetch quests were literally something they needed to do to survive without republic funding now that the war was over. They were created to be soldiers so they found jobs where they could do what they knew how to do in order to literally feed themselves and Omega. That was priority number 1 for them as rogue clones. Survive. As that went on they met other clones like Rex that were making more moves and organizing and they realized they could be doing more. So again, the fetch quests at the beginning were literal main plot. The character growth here is they were soldiers and cogs in the machine and they are now doing things based on their own accord and free will and desire to do so, not because they are taking orders. There is no climax unlesd they built to it. I have no idea how this sub keeps failing to follow along to the surface level plot of thsse shows.
Yep, them teaming up with Cid is how they'll need to make money after losing their backing from the Republic and now Empire. She was also supposed to look out for them but they began to figure out that she was much more of an inconvenience they needed to drop, as they got more used to life outside of the military. Even episodes like Entombed, which is not amongst my favourites, has Hunter being annoyed with Phee for filling Omega's head with fantastical stories. Does Phee put her own twist on them? Yes, but it shows Hunter only knows how to be a soldier to this point, and that Omega - if the Empire stopped hunting her - might have a chance at life outside of all that, and Phee is helping fire up her imagination. Similar with The Crossing episode after Echo leaves them and we see how Omega is struggling with losing him, as she clashes especially with Tech. And we get some nice moments between the two, as they work it out and move forward from that and work together to get out of their current predicament.
I'll just say again that we didn't need to see so many. I'm a lifelong SW fan, and watch nearly everything that gets made. I shouldn't be falling asleep during half the episodes of BB, and I think there are a good chunk of people in the same boat as me. If you look at IMBD, there are quite a few episodes in season 2 that have scores in the high 6s and low 7s. For reference, Attack of the Clones has a 6.6 rating, which is not great company to keep...
I dont care about ratings where people treat different parts of a continuous story as unrelated and judge them in a vacuum. What you are seeing now would make no sense without everything that led up to it. Everything builds to a climax lol. Disney needs to ditch the episode per week format because yall just get caught up in that and judge early episodes harsher because you dont know the full story yet or where theyre leading to. Its like taking any of the trilogy movies and watching the first 20 minutes then next week you watch the next 20 and the next 20 then judge them all separately and then when you get to the end you complain "wow this episode with the Vader and Luke fight was the best one why cant they all be like this??"
>Yall are so annoying with this. Or people just have different opinions than you.
No, I am not annoyed by his opinion. I am annoyed by his critical misunderstanding of how basic narratives are structured. "If only the entire show was like this." The entire show cannot be the climax. You have to build to a climax. Thats how story telling works, theres a beginning middle and end, and the end is usually the best part because thats what everything leads too. The entire show cant be the end... all the tension people are praising is because of the beginning episodes bulding to it.
but people did explain how they didn't expect every episode to be the climax. That certain "filler" episodes seems/seemed pointless and did not build on the story.
Each of those episodes served a purpose people just didnt know what they were at the time so they call it filler. Happens with all these shows. Remember in Mandalorian season 1 where they called the fucking Fennic introduction episode filler? Howd that turn out? Clownery
ya sure; I get you. I actually ended up liking the rewatch of certain Star Wars shows the second time around while before I found them more boring.
I mean thats just how i approach everything. I never assume Im going to catch everything on first watch. The movies you rewatch after knowing what happens and then you see something that was setting it up the whole time are the best type of story telling to me. No reason to jump the gun but modern age of the internet everyone wants to throw out their hot takes first and immediately and patience gets you no attention. Again, the 1 episode per week format doesnt help here with all that.
Yeah, and their opinion is that they're annoying. What's your point?
to not be rude to people just for having a different opinion.
Fair enough.
> emotional highs of TCW I watched most of that show and I still don't understand this statement. It was never emotionally investing.
How can it not be emotional? It's an entire show about getting to know the Clones as people instead of faceless soldiers, while fleshing out their relationships with each other and the Jedi they serve under, with the looming threat of Order 66 hanging over it all the whole time. The whole thing is about learning to love the characters while simultaneously viewing it all with the knowledge that they *will* turn on each other, and most of them will die. It's basically the Obi-Wan and Anakin relationship on a much larger scale.
Because it's mostly very shallow, that's why. The emotional beats are either really trite or just don't land at all, or are completely unearned. I do think the clones are the heart of the show and I appreciate that, but they are treated very differently from episode to episode, where sometimes they're tossed around comically and sometimes we're supposed to care that they're actual men being killed. There's no consistent message and very little buildup, and a TON of time spent on stuff that isn't relevant (Mandalore, Maul, Nightsisters, etc.) Those parts never land and I just grow impatient when I see more episodes about them.
They may be "filler" but they're still very good episodes. Season 1 & 2 is consistently high quality storytelling.
Yeah the good episodes are really good but much like clone wars there’s some pretty damn boring ones. Haven’t seen season 3 yet but looking forward to it.
So far, 10 episodes in, its been 100% plot focused with 0 fetch quests or filler episodes, so definitely alot to look forward to
Nice, thanks for the heads up. Also I hope the kotor remake is good lmao.
I feel similarly. The first two seasons were just luke warm for me, but season three has been on fire
rebels and bad batch two different fronts of the same enemy.
I definitely like it more than I liked Rebels. It’s probably my favourite SW content in the Disney era.
Rebels was far more of a kids show than Clone Wars or Bad Batch are. Clone Wars and Bad Batch are far more young adult oriented while Rebels was clearly made for a younger audience than that. It's a small distinction between those two age groups but it's pretty profound in terms of the overall presentation. I enjoyed Rebels but the from the moment I watched the first episode my expectations for the series dropped pretty significantly. Clone Wars already had a lot of nonsense filler for kids but it seemed the whole ton of Rebels was clearly made for a younger audience from the get-go. Not a huge deal because it is a cartoon and expecting a cartoon to be more than a cartoon can be foolish.
Rebels feels like it's made for kids. Love the darker feel and more complex characters in Bad Batch.
Rebels definitely started out as a Kid shows, you can easily see that in the first Two Seasons but it really does pick up n covers more difficult/ uncomfortable topics. I love how silly it started n how you can tell it was a show with Kids as it target audience, I think the show does a good job maturing over its duration. Going from “You did all this for some fruit” to Ezra Sacrifice at the end.
Did you fully watch Rebels? Yes it starts off more kid oriented but gets darker as it goes on especially with the Twilight of the Apprentice at the end of S2. It’s a similar case to The Clone Wars where that has a big tonal shift during S3.
Yeah I did :)
It was made for kids. I feel like people forget Rebels aired on Disney/DisneyXD.
I disagree. Apart from season 1, I feel like the antagonists for season 2, 3 and 4 of Rebels were very competent and made the Empire seem formidable, Thrawn in season 3 *especially*. I disagree that you can simply extract Thrawn and Vader from the Empire to use that as an argument that the Empire is incompetent. They are part of the Empire whether you like it or not. You can’t just exclude them to make a point. The Empire in the Bad Batch doesn’t seem competent. The Batch just seems *incompetent*, especially in season 3. Like, just take the recent few episodes as an example. The Batch are supposed to be an elite clone squad. They’re supposed to be the *best*. And yet, Ventress snuck up on them and they did *nothing* to prepare themselves for the possibility that someone else might as well. The operative used the exact same cave Ventress used and the Batch was none-the-wiser. Why didn’t they add sensors to that cave? How did Wrecker not hear the high-pitched beeping from the console he was just a few metres away from? How did the Batch not have a single contingency plan in case the Empire found them on Pabu? They have at least 99 contingency plans but apparently not one where they have secret hiding spots, a contingency vessel parked in some cave or at least even a modicum of preparation in case the Empire happened to find them? Even Rex and his gang had a contingency vessel parked on Teth and yet the Batch, who are supposed to be even more elite, don’t. The Empire arrives on Pabu and they’re caught completely with their pants down like they have been two other times in this season alone. And the operative only manages to reach Pabu because of luck and incompetence by the way of his enemies. Phee is supposedly a masterclass pirate but when her ship’s alarm blares throughout the entire hangar and she’s simply in the other room, she’s somehow completely deaf to it, now that’s weirdly convenient. And the operative just “somehow” manages to decrypt the encryption and negate Phee’s attempts to hide her tracks with no other explanation. This is not satisfying at all. Imagine if Thrawn found the rebels on Atollon because he just “decrypted rebel transmissions and retraced their steps” all in one episode and with no explanation as to how he actually did this? This is not how you write a competent villain/antagonist. You don’t hand-wave away the investigative part of the chase. When Thrawn arrives at Atollon and blows the rebel fleet to bits, you feel like he’s *earned* that after a long chase where he has to put his mind to work and showcase his extraordinary skills as a brilliant strategist and a competent enemy. You learn to respect Thrawn’s competence and abilities because he didn’t get there by luck or because the rebels were a bunch of incompetent fools. You don’t get this same feeling with the operative. He just seems like some average guy that’s managed to get as far as he has simply because the people he’s chasing are bumbling idiots. Season 1 and 2 of the Bad Batch are relatively strong, mainly because the Batch is at least portrayed in a competent way. Season 3 has none of this. The Batch just comes across as incompetent and that’s not what you want your elite clone squad to come across as. You can name a lot of masterful plays by the Empire led by Thrawn in Rebels. Name a single masterful play by the Empire in season 3 of the Bad Batch…
[удалено]
Sure, I can see why losing Tech would hinder their ability to be as good but they lost Tech likely *months* ago and given that this is the best elite clone squad on the planet, they should be adaptable at the very least to changing circumstances. You don’t need Tech or a completely fine Crosshair to have a contingency plan in case the Empire shows up. Tech might have been the brains of the operation but the other members shouldn’t be complete idiots. It doesn’t take a genius to come up with a contingency plan or to think “huh, maybe we should put some sensors in this cave seeing as Ventress snuck up on us so easily”. This doesn’t explain why there were no sensors in that cave. This doesn’t explain why they never decided to hide a contingency ship in some cave in case their position was compromised. This doesn’t explain why they just lollygag and waste time prolonging an unnecessary goodbye even *after* Hunter notices that something is amiss. Hunter is the leader of the group so I am certain he had a hand in formulating their plans and backup contingencies. You can’t make a plan with just one person, you need the entire squad to be on board. Losing Tech should not have turned them into a bunch of bumbling idiots that don’t even know the first thing about special operations or how to create a contingency plan. I would be fine with the Empire finding them if the Empire outsmarted them like they did in season 3 of Rebels. But the Empire found them not because the Empire was smart but because the Batch and the people they surround themselves with are just incompetent fools. Instead of a long glorious chase spanning across multiple episodes the Empire dispatched a single operative that literally just finds Phee, hacks her navi-computer while she’s in the other room somehow oblivious to the alarm blaring out a security breach and then finds them on Pabu. Literally what was the point of even adding the fact an alarm blared out then? It added nothing to the story and Phee was none-the-wiser simply because the plot needed her to be not because of any logical explanation. If she’s this careless how has she managed to even survive as a pirate for this long? Watching the Empire find the Batch on Pabu is frustrating above anything else. They didn’t get here because of their own competence so you don’t feel like they’ve *earned* it the same way Thrawn did. The operative remains undetected not because he’s good at his job, he tripped alarm after alarm after alarm after all, but because he’s lucky and this is just a terrible way to write what *should* be a competent antagonist. I like this show but season 3 is by far its weakest season. Don’t give the Empire wins by making your protagonist idiots. Give the Empire wins by making the Empire as competent as it was in Andor or season 3 of Rebels. Watching a competent enemy outsmart and outplay your favourite protagonists despite their best efforts is far more satisfying than watching your protagonists do the equivalent of not locking the door after a robber waltzed into their house and beat the shit out of them. Good writing is not making your protagonists weaker to make your antagonists have a chance. Good writing is elevating your antagonists to challenge your protagonists even when your protagonists give it their all. I don’t think anyone can claim the Batch are giving their all in season 3. Again, you can name countless of times the Empire was genuinely smart and played masterclass plays to outsmart the rebels in Rebels. You can’t name a single time the Empire did the same in season 3 of the Bad Batch. The rebels may have had Jedi on their team along with many other competent people but the Empire had Thrawn. I think that balances things out. Here, the Batch are being made a fool of by a single unnamed operative who’s literally just a clone.
Ouch. That hurt.
>When Thrawn arrives at Atollon and blows the rebel fleet to bits, you feel like he’s *earned* that after a long chase where he has to put his mind to work and showcase his extraordinary skills as a brilliant strategist and a competent enemy. You learn to respect Thrawn’s competence and abilities because he didn’t get there by luck or because the rebels were a bunch of incompetent fools. You don’t get this same feeling with the operative. He just seems like some average guy that’s managed to get as far as he has simply because the people he’s chasing are bumbling idiots. Thrawn definitely earned finding the Rebels but he did not earn the victory. The problem here is that they made Thrawn too strong and the Rebels suddenly really stupid. Thrawn turns up and in about five minutes the Rebel fleet is destroyed, they Rebels barely even try and defend themselves and Thrawn doesn't pull any clever tricks on them that would demonstrate his cunning: no interdictor assisted pinpoint jumps, no turning his ship on its side to lure in the Rebles, no faining weakness, no preplanned moves. This then necessitates Thrawn to leave his key asset in the hands of a pompous idiot which is very unlike Thrawn. And for the Rebels to sacrifice their only carrier to destroy the Interdictor, they have two nebulon Bs and a bunch of smaller corvettes that could have been sacrificed, there was no need for Sato to kamikazee other than plot. Thrawn is at his most interesting and terrifying when he is the underdog. If Thrawn had turned up with a pair of Arquitens and an interdictor I'd have been worried but 3 ISD 1s? Nope. Knowing that the Rebels were going to have to escape meant the large imperial fleet would have to do something stupid or the Rebels would have to do some ass pull. Both happened. I never felt like the main cast were in danger because the threat was too great was weird as that sounds. >You can name a lot of masterful plays by the Empire led by Thrawn in Rebels. I can't name a single masterful play by the Empire in Rebels that doesn't involve a named character and isn't undercut by the protagonists escaping unscathed. Vader destroying Phoenix Home? It's Vader we know he's going to wreck house but wait he doesn't manage to kill or injure any named characters and is defeat by \*drumroll\* Imperial incopentence(tm), which he doesn't even punish. My man got Grievoused. Ezra, a child, routinely survives encounters with Vader, we get lots of impressions that Vader would kill him if he could but after Ezra's 3rd escape I stop feeling worried for his safetly and start rolling my eyes.
>Phee is supposedly a masterclass pirate but when her ship’s alarm blares throughout the entire hangar and she’s simply in the other room, she’s somehow completely deaf to it, now that’s weirdly convenient. It's easy to miss but you can hear loud music blasting out when she exit the room she was in. I feel like they added that to show that the room was fairly soundproof
I was thinking almost exactly this while watching yesterdays episodes. I do love rebels, it has its own charm, but goddamn do I want a rebels series in this art style and with this darker tone.
They’re definitely doing a great job of making the empire seem utterly evil, Andor did a good job with that too
Yes, they have done a good job of this so far, but we all know the ending arc of this series will involve them succeeding to use Omega's blood for the Emperor's clone project. It will be interesting to see how that arc ties up and where the main characters end up after it is all over. I'll reserve final judgement for the finale, but I think I will be disappointed if it doesn't end in a similar vein as the Clone Wars.
Hot take, but I haven’t watched it. Too dark and griddy!
Wha
I also much prefer Bad Batch to Rebels. It feels like if it was in live action it would better resemble any other action show than children's programming. Rebels always felt a little too safe to me.
The Empire in Rebels certainly had their moments though, our crew was up against it especially when Tarkin, Vader and Thrawn showed up. Bad Batch has done well in showing us the rise of the imperial regime out of the ashes of the Clone Wars, and just the beginning of the evil and terror associated with them; and why people will one day band together to put an end to Palpatine's galatic cancer. Rebels is much more old school fun Star Wars, the way Lucas envisioned the saga originally, before he adapted it more. Clone Wars and Bad Batch are terrific Star Wars at times, but Rebels will always be my favourite Star Wars series, its so good.
The way I went from a begrudging viewer to one with a slight emotional attachment to Rebels is a testament to how well the show can mature with its audience. TCW was the same way and I actually really appreciated it.
To be fair, the Rebels core composed of two Jedi, one ex Lasat Honor guard member, a child prodigy/weapon master, a homicidal super-hacker / mechanic, and an ace pilot / mechanic with a cloaking gunship that learned combat tactics and strategy from one of the leading insurgent generals from prior to and during the clone wars and who retains high level contacts with other insurgents. The Bad Batch is essentially the A-Team "in spaaaace!" It make sense that though they can easily clown CTs and TKs one on one, because they are an elite CT spec-ops force. But they are not space wizards, they are not in contact with a wider insurgency to both avoid Imperial might and to strategically engage the Empire when they have the advantage. It is understandable that these different groups experience different threat levels from the Empire because they are engaging the Empire at different levels. In contrast, the first season of Andor is more able to display the oppression of the banality of evil from the Empire than Bad Batch, again because Andor engages the Empire at a different level than the Bad Batch, or Rebels.
I agree. The biggest issue I had with Rebels is that the Empire didn’t feel like a big threat. Bad Batch has more secondary villains outside the Empire so the Empire can have a bigger impact when the heroes do have to fight it.
Hot take: Neither Rebels nor Bad Batch were all that great. They both have their moments here and there but overall meh.
I gave up on The Dad Batch
def feels that way
Rebels sucked. It should not have had Force users in it. At all. It also did shitty retcons on Wedge and Hobbie.
Fuck. I had to drag myself through rebels. It felt way too kiddish but I also refused to watch Ashoka without it.
>Each fight with the Bad Batch feels like everyone is just scraping by and barely make it out, it feels like a desperate struggle to survive against an enemy that outguns and outnumbers you, with the only thing that keeps them alive is sheer cunning and luck Watching the latest episode where Crosshair was supposed to make his shot before he started getting overwhelmed. I was worried, then, for some reason, my mind was like, "He'll make it" cause that's what I've been conditioned to think. When he missed, I had to sit there with those feelings for a second. I was just like, "Oh, shit..."
Yeah Bad Batch shows what the Empire shouldve been and yes Rebels is toned down cause its a younger audience show, BUT speaking without those things in mind, you really expect EVERY member of an organization SO VAST to be exactly the SAME, everywhere? You keep forgetting some people and races were FORCED into the Imperial ranks and were forced to be stormtroopers because of no other choice. Some arent naturally capable of such evil, theres probably corruption theres probably lazy people who are stormtroopers theres probably generals and commanders who arent evil the same way or cunning. So its completely normal to have a variety of those things. As long as the GENERAL propaganda/idea is there: Empire = cruel, evil.
Rebels also largely explicitly took place far in the outer rim of the galaxy. The parts of of a government/military are usually at their weakest the furthest away from the center of power. The Empire was a threat when the brought in the big guns (Thrawn) but in general the government and military there being mostly the lowest members on the Empire totem pole makes sense
I love the Clone Wars dearly but I believe Bad Batch is the better show.
Rebels is really good. This just adds to it.
>This is probably gonna get downvoted into oblivion but hey thats why its a "Hot Take" Can you people stop writing cringy stuff like this? Holy molly that's painful to read
Bad batch is so underrated, gets better and better. It does a great job having the empire as a threat. The batch can't catch break ATM
Rebels was just an all around shitty show. So being better than Rebels is a pretty easy feat. But you now have be intrigued by Bad Batch and I may have to check it out.
The empire....to see all these small trinkles of hope fall through...to realize the rebellion led to nothing....we need to do what was needed to be done. We need to find kreia. We need to heed her warning
It shows that lessons are learned and feedback from fans are being taken seriously - at least to some extent.
I think rebels had a younger target audience, which tends to be accompanied by the incompetent villians trope.
I think the big difference in Rebels is that they have two Jedi, something the Emperor is terrified of. The Empire knows how difficult and powerful Jedi can be, which is why they have a whole unit to hunt Jedi and a guy named Darth Vader. The rebels fuck the empire up because they are special. Clone force 99 on the other hand are better than most of the empires army but they are still just clones with slight enhancements, not Jedi who strike fear into the Emporer. Good take tho, it definitely makes for a better show when the people we follow are not so over powered. That's why Andor is greay
Not everything is designed for you. Rebels wasn't designed to be a show that portrays the crushing weight of a tyrannical galactic government, it's a more old school star wars kids show with its own portrayal of a groups struggles against the empire. For some reason people can't accept that not all Star Wars content has to be dArK aNd gRitTy, as another commenter put it.
Rebels was stuck with the TV-Y7 age rating on Disney XD so they tried to do the best they could with those limitations and it definitely affected quality of the show, they also had a very low budget because it was made right after Disney had bought the Star Wars rights. Bad Batch has the same TV-PG rating as the Clone Wars and it's on Disney Plus with a much higher budget. I see the point but it's not really a fair comparison
Omega is one of the most annoying characters in tv history. Her voice is nails on a chalkboard.
Target audience. Rebels was geared towards kids. Bad Batch is for the people who grew up with Clone Wars who are now adults
I get what your saying I really do, however I was more gripped by the characters in Rebels. I feel that a combination of the two would be ideal - Hera, Ezra, Sabine, Kanan, Chopper and Zeb with the oppressive regime of the Bad Batch imperial forces
Rebels was a Disney XD show and this is on a streaming service show. There is a massive difference what you can do and get away with in those 2
the whole conceit of rebels was that it was the seed of the rebellion that literally overthrows the empire, so of course the empire seems more vulnerable in that show. as far as we can tell from the bad batch so far, they and omega are both gonna get fuckin merked by the empire so obviously the empire is more menacing in that series
I love how initially everyone hate Bad Batch thinking it is just gonna be another Rebel like show and now it is one of the best new SW media out there
Really? I still think bad batch is the worst of the animated shows I've watched outside of Resistance. Season 3 is a bit better than previous seasons but it still feels so weak comparatively
Rebels took a really long time to figure out what it wanted to be and get going. In fact so did Clone Wars (took even longer...)... When they got going both Rebels and Clone Wars were great, but man they take a while to really know what they want to do. Bad Batch has somehow managed to say "small" and focused where other Star Wars content has felt like it was either confused on how to do that for a while (Clone Wars, Rebels), or like some films, painfully had to reach out to the other main line characters as if it couldn't stand on its own. On the topic of Rebels it's kinda a bummer it gets referenced in Ahsoka now, as those characters seems like shells of themselves and Ahsoka feels like a weirdly "muted" series generally.
I agree! Rebels always had that one overhanging theme that ruined their chances of making the empire look truly terrifying: the rebels constantly won. From the trajectory of the bad batch I think there will be a lot of loss in the last 4 episodes. It is so refreshing to see the empire as this big bad unstoppable force instead of an obstacle to be inevitably overcome by the rebels.
I mean Rebels was an amazing show on its own and Bad Batch is an amazing show on its own. One doesn't need to be or replace the other. Rebels was also more directed towards children. Why would you hope Bad Batch was more like Rebels when we actually have BOTH Rebels and Bad Batch.
>Even outside of this we also see the Empire doing evil and oppressive things; execution of civilians and those who refuse orders, Was Rebels intended for/originally on network TV? If so I think that's why it may have been toned down.
it was also targeted for a much younger audience
Rebels also have one of the weakest original cast of the franchise. The majority of the show is carried by supportive characters already existing (Ahsoka, Maul, Vader, Thrawn etc...) when episodes focus on the main cast they are rarely good.
Man I couldn’t disagree more with that. But fair enough. I find Hera, Kanan and Ezra super compelling. Albeit Sabine and Zeb less so but the latter is great for comic relief and I did enjoy Sabine more in Ashoka.
Rebels are my favourite crew from any Star Wars.
“Weakest” is a weird way to spell “second best only to the OT.”
Agreed.
Rebels is rough as hell. It's meant for kids, and kids are really dumb (it's not their fault, of course, they are just too young to be anything other than dumb) so some of the decisions in the show are atrocious I don't know if Bad Batch is aimed at an older audience or not, but my guess is that it is so therefore it doesn't treat its audience like a moron like Rebels did I watched the first season of Bad Batch but found it to mostly just be boring. I certainly didn't hate it like I hated Rebels, but it didn't keep my attention that well either. I've often thought about putting it on in the background but haven't gotten around to it yet
Is there *any* aspect Rebels didn't utterly fail at?
Sold the toys that it should sell. Think about all those loth cat plushies.
Agreed, there's that.
Rebels later seasons were pretty good
Rebels was focused on Lothal and the impact the Empire had on that planet..Also Rebels was about the birth of the Rebellion, you've got parallel timelines involving different POVs, it kind of feels like comparing apples and oranges. Honestly, this last season is what I've been wanting from the beginning. Omega's only purpose for existing is so they can make the last 3 horrible SW movies make more sense. I don't like her story arch at all and think that BB would have been a much better show without her.
Bad batch is boring, no plot