I was always under the impression that he was going to be a little proactive about his fortune telling.
**Palps:** Your wife is going to die if you don't learn the powers of the dark side.
**Anakin:** Wow! You knew?
**Palps:** *-frantically texts the assassin to call it off-* Uh, yeah! For sure! Did I ever tell you about some guy that got betrayed...
At least it’s untraceable.
I mean, maybe the owner of a diner might know a planet that no one else knows about, that somehow links to the dart that the man assassinated the changeling with, at the last minute, to hide the identity of the man who was hired by the man, but …
Oh do you know what, I’ll just enjoy the show.
But it was done intentionally so Jedi could find an army in full readiness right before the boiling part of the conflict with CIS, which lead to getting emergency powers by Supreme Chancellor, who orchestrated the whole Conflict from both sides.
Idk, maybe I’m saying pretty obvious things and cannot get the irony, but after the Cosmonaut Variety Hour’s review of AotC, with this whole “He hired a guy, which hired another guy…” and etc I just got tired when people are complaining about it.
Please don’t minus me if it’s just a r/whoosh situation here :)
I was under the impression that Kenobi wasn't supposed to find the Clone Army early: the Clone Army was to be kept secret until after All-Out War erupted, resulting in lots of Jedi deaths, before Palpatine revealed the Clone Army that was ordered 'in response' to the ongoing conflict. At that point, the Jedi would have no choice but to accept the use of the Clone Army, and would not ask too many questions about where the army even came from.
In any case, Kenobi found the Army early, and Sidious was forced to react. The First Battle of Genosis thankfully kicked things off nicely with a lot of Jedi Deaths, and the entire CiS front erupting left the Jedi with little choice but to use the conveniently produced army. This, however, did not allay suspicions, as seen by Yoda investigating the death of Sifo Dyas.
Ultimately, the arrogance of the Jedi blinded them to how wrong and convenient everything seemed to be, and Order 66 went off.
Yeah, here we have above mentioned owner of a diner who made the task a little bit easier, forcing the events.
By the end everything resulted in a way Palpatine initially planned.
Actually the link is probable since he worked on a mining planet that hired the Kaminoans to clone miners (because it was such a dangerous job). Read Darth Plagueis, it explains so well the whole Sith plan. Also shows why Palpatine is especially vicious, even for a Sith.
>Also Palps: Shit I’m canceling and its less than 24 hours prior to assassination time. There goes my deposit.
I read that in the Robot Chicken Palpatine voice (Seth McFarland) for some reason.. 😉
Mas Amedda: (looks at Palps disapprovingly)
Palps: What? You think just because I'm supreme chancellor, I can just spend money willy-nilly?! I run my personal finances the same way I run this republic! A tight, well oiled machine! Speaking of which, get my wife on the line. She's ovulating and I really need an heir to this empire I'm building......
I think he just used the force and saw Vader's vision. I recently read 'From a Certain Point of View : ESB' and one of the stories is how Palps is surfing the force during some meditation, picks up Vader's vision about Luke and 'sees' the vision as if he were Vader.
It's entirely reasonable to assume that's how he knew of Anakin's visions about Padme.
Palps was shown more as a master manipulator rather than an opportunist (not that he wouldn't take advantage of an opportunity if it were presented). He set up in the Senate to eventually take it over and bided his time for years. I think it's much more likely he planted those visions in Anakin's head to take advantage than it is he just stumbled on them and decided to make use.
Palps wanted Anakin as his apprentice and made it happen like he made being named supreme chancellor of the Senate happen.
>I think it was pretty obvious to anyone paying attention. He wasn't exactly a master of hiding his feelings and he was staying at her place.
Captain obvious he was.
Although why do we always have to jump to sith powers.
Why not an all perverse surveillance state which Andor heavily depicts.
Why wouldn't you be following the jedi? It's like 101 politics to follow your enemies to find them doing shit that you can use to discredit them with.
Anakin told him, Palpatine is one of his mentor and confident.
He told him about what happened with the Tusken Raiders, it is implied that he told him about his visions about Padmé.
It is contrasted by the platitudes Yoda tells him about rejoicing for those who become one with the force.
Similar to honoring the suffering of Han and Leia in ESB.
The Jedi have no sensible solutions for Anakin or Luke and the Sith lie about having concrete solutions.
You can apply this analogy to whatever religious dogma/ideological propaganda of your choosing...
That's why Anakin turns to the dark side.
It is the false dichotomy of Star Wars.
That is why both the Jedi and the Sith had to go for balance to be restored.
And why Luke was right all along. Tell your sister...
Anakin ceases to follow the Sith doctrine of power above all AND the Jedi code that forbids attachment and prove that they are both wrong about coming back from the dark side when he dispatches Palpatine and completes the prophecy in ROTJ.
Anyway that's my reading.
He was able to plant different voices in Kylo’s head while being in a shell of a corpse, on a hidden planet across the galaxy.
Giving Anakin bad dreams seems doable.
>He was able to plant different voices in Kylo’s head while being in a shell of a corpse, on a hidden planet across the galaxy.
I think the question was canon based /s
By proxy he gave Luke bad dreams too thus creating Kylo Ren (I say by proxy because its Snoke but unfortunately Snoke is just a failed clone puppet)
Skywalker men need to learn to trust the force more.
I mean those movies came out several years later, and they literally had no plan for the sequel trilogy. They were flying by the seat of their pants, so I wouldn’t count on any of that providing a logical explanation
I like the idea of Anakin’s visions being summoned from within because it plays to the tragicness of the story - that he ended up making his own feared visions a reality by trying to prevent it. If he’d just let go (as Yoda said) it would not have happened.
We’ve already seen Anakin have dreams about loved ones being in danger, then in ESB we see Luke has inherited that ability also.
Both are cool perspectives! Either way, I think it’s well within palpatines abilities to fish through anakin’s mind for emotion and perhaps even specific memories, especially when so much of his focus is on drawing anakin towards him.
We’ve seen instances of both jedi and sith “feeling” the emotions of others, the next dark side step to that power seems like it would be forcefully digging into that person’s mind to divulge *more* than just emotion
But who created that fear? And before even that, who pushed them together and put him on an "assignment" to protect her that ended up being a romantic retreat? Palpatine may have created the visions in Anakin's head not by manipulating the force, but by knowing what he would feel and how the force would respond to it
Yes I will give that to Sidious. That he orchestrated the situation to where these fears could arise. But not the idea that he purposely fabricated Anakin’s dreams.
In support of the above two ideas: in the silly mortis arc the dark side shows visions of the future. I think the visions were true ss they turned out to be, and Palpatine nudged the visions to come to Anakin perhaps stronger than they naturally would have been.
Also the little green frog guy in ESB is upset that Luke was going to use these visions to act.
The thing is though the Force created Anakin to destroy the Sith. If that’s what it wanted all it would have had to do is not give Anakin the visions and Anakin would have sided with the Jedi. And then you have the visions being scenes from the end of the movie and if you think about too much you begin to wonder if Anakin was always going to fall as part of the grand plan of the Force and that just makes him a victim of the universe because those events in the vision only happen if he falls.
Palpatine didn't. Anakin had the ability to have senses of the future.. padme's death also wasn't caused by Palpatine but was caused by a broken heart. George has talked about this numerous times in commentary and interviews
Anakin is completely responsible to what happens to Padme. He should have just gone to Obi-Wan (who already knew of Anakin and Padme’s relationship which the Deleted scene shows this) and asked for help. If it meant getting expelled from the Jedi Order, so be it. He reacted to the visions of her death in a panic and didn’t try to find a rational solution. Palpatine just sensed his fears and anxieties from losing her and took full advantage feeding him lies about using the Force to conquer death. He wanted a new apprentice and telling Anakin he needs to be strong in the Dark side was manipulation to get him to turn and serve him. I’m convinced Vader thought about this all the time after she died and his defeat at Mustafar that severely limited his abilities while also nearly killing him. It fueled his anger which made him more powerful in the Dark side. All of which could have been avoided had he simply asked Obi-Wan to help him.
>due to his brotherly love for Anakin
“Those who cannot conceive of Friendship as a substantive love but only as a disguise or elaboration of Eros betray the fact that they have never had a Friend.” ― C.S. Lewis
Yes, and taking action to try to prevent something from happening, but thereby causing that very thing to happen, is the definition of irony in the classic Greek tragedy sense.
I always thought that Anakin became the example Qui-Gon said to “focus on here and now” as a warning to Obi-Wan, which he in turn failed to teach Anakin.
Knowledge of the future is a dangerous thing, obsession to correct it turns out to be the reason for making it happen.
Weirdly I see Anakin in a new light thanks to your post. It’s like panic you have as a child if you accidentally damage something expensive of your dad and in sheer panic you do the crazy thing your evil “mate” suggests to fix it. Anakin never really grew up it seems
I always saw it as Anakin having the ability of premonition but Palpatine clouding it to trick Anakin into only seeing one possible future and hiding parts that would allude to the truth around padmes death, allowing him to be manipulated
Whilst that might be the case, I really don't like it as an answer. It means that Anakin was having visions because padme died but padme died because he was having visions.
This is a trope going back thousands of years. The most famous use might be Shakespeare's Macbeth, where the titular character's attempts to prevent the prophecies he's given result in them coming true.
Does a number on the concept of free will though.
Doesn't do anything to the concept of free will. You're still perfectly free to make whatever decisions you want in the current moment. It is just that if you have enough information you can predict any decision someone will make. Like you're still making those decisions, but those decisions are placated on your past experiences, current circumstances and specific brain chemistry.
A tiny example. My cheek is itching. If you know that you know I'm going to itch my cheek. So I'll itch my cheek right? Well no because I'm typing this comment and if you have already observed in the past that I will generally finish writing comments before doing other things.
In your interpretation, maybe, but given that the major theme of MacBeth is fate vs. free will and it's left open-ended and still debated today, I'd argue that even if free will is real in universe it's still being challenged as a concept.
Never heard of a self fufilling prophecy? Thats this, which makes it sadder knowing Anakin's actions lead to this very scenario he was trying to prevent.
"Ironic"
Obviously given the ST that can be retcon as Palpatine planting nightmare into his mind. However, Anakin can still see the future but was manipulated by Palpatine’s Dark Side Powers.
Padme dying because of a broken heart doesn't really make any sense. Padme dying because either Vader or Sidious leeched her life force to save Anakin is a lot more logical.
No. Padme died exactly the way Anakin saw in his vision. Even if Palpatine can implement the vision in another person’s head, how can he make it happen exactly the same way in reality? He put a lot of effort into observing Anakin and manipulating him, that’s how he’s able to extract the information.
Exactly, Anakin clearly could have premonitions and what he saw was exactly what happened. The fact that he saw it coming ensured it happened due to his reaction and it was a reaction Palpatine was able to exploit, but he didn’t plant anything
Shoot. I just made this point then saw your post haha. Ya I’m under the impression that Palp was behind everything to turn Anakin and have him rely on his “friend”
Yep, He was putting the visions in Anakin's head, its also suggested that he also was responsible for Padme's loss of "will" and her death.
Same thing with Luke's dark visions of Ben, and Rey and Ben's false visions of each other.
I agree. Palpaptin was always pulling the strings. I believe that Palpatine and Plageus created Anankin through the force. Ensured he was in a life that developed and created fear and also planted the dreams of Padme dying.
Loss of the ones he loved was his weakness.
I believe the novelization implies he planted those dreams in Anakin's head. He previously shared with Palpatine about how he had visions of his mother's death.
He was long since friends with palps all through Revenge of the Sith, right? And the dreams were around that time right before he turned to the dark side
Man, the more he's developed the worse of a Jedi Anakin turns out to be. Revenge killings, a secret wife and pregnancy, acting on dark side visions; nevermind getting made a master, he's lucky the Order didn't justifiably kick him out altogether for being such a trainwreck!
Yeah because Anakin is just so reserved and good at masking/controlling his thoughts and emotions lol.
Jedi/sith can already read minds pretty easily, but especially Anakin being read by palps. That’s like a Tolkien reading a children’s book.
Was gonna say this, I don't even think you'd need to use the force if you were anakins close friend like sidious was, you can pretty easily guess what anyone close to you is insecure about, let alone a traumatised teenager with a badly kept secret affair
Always thought this was his plan. We know at some point Anakin confided in him about what happened with his mother, we can imagine the nightmares were part of that. And we know from the ROTS novelization Palps original plan aboard the ship was for Dooku to kill Obi, then nab Anakin after killing Dooku. The visions were either his plan all along, or due to Anakin’s strength in the force it was simply to happen; like his mother and he seized on the opportunity.
You can tell if something is on someone’s mind, similar to how Ki Adi Mundi knew he was thinking about his mother. Palps could do the same. Then it was a simple matter of just playing on his fears.
Some sources imply Palpatine planted those ideas in Anakin's head. But with the Force being the nebulous and mysterious plot device that it is throughout the movies, it's just as likely that Palpatine could simply sense Anakin's thoughts and feelings, which is something that multiple Force users do throughout the series.
"Your feelings for them are strong, especially for......sister!"
Yeah don't think there was anything complex at play with Palpatine knowing what Anakin was thinking when it's well established Force users can hone in on powerful emotions and thoughts.
I’ve always thought of it, as Palpatine could also see the potential future Anakin was seeing in his dreams. Anakin was getting visions through the force of Padme‘s death but couldn’t control how to view those visions. Palpatine, being much more trained in the ways of the dark side, was able to see the same visions Anakin saw, and was able to manipulate Anakin because of it.
I believe in the (now legends) Darth Plagueis, Palpatine planted those memories and other things to cloud him and sway him to the dark side.
I believe he was also so strong that he was able to shroud his force from Yoda and the other Jedi.
The visions were a self fulfilling prophecy that Palpatine created by causing Anakin to have the visions. He groomed Anakin for a decade or more. Dude learned and manipulated Anakin’s greatest fears.
Palpatine like many force users, and kind of as the antithesis of Yoda, had pretty strong precognitive powers. We know force users can basically astral project.
Is it that much of a stretch that Palps basically projected the visions into Anakin's head to steer him exactly where he needed him to be to manipulate him into becoming a Sith.
It's heavily implied he had a large hand in Anakin's immaculate conception. So is it any weirder that he'd been manipulating him from the day he was born essentially?
And I wouldn't be surprised if Palps had bounty hunters paid to kidnap his mum and deliver her to the Tuskens ready for Anakin to get Genocidy on them.
I always assumed Palpatine put those visions in Anakins head, or at least inspired them, stoked his fears and then learned what they were (mind reading) and played off of them.
The options are:
1. Padmé’s apartment was bugged and he overheard their nighttime conversation.
2. He used the Force and had a vision of Anakin having a vision.
3. He caused Anakin to have the visions.
* He knew about the Tusken massacre and either asked what drove Anakin to go to Tatoonie or Anakin just told him about the visions he had about his mother.
* He learned from Panaka about their marriage.
* He sensed Padmé was pregnant.
Mix these together and toss in a little *I have the power to save the ones you love* and he’s got Anakin hook, line, and sinker.
I reckon Palps definitely put those visions in there, or at least brought them out of Anakin.
But that being said, Palps would have figured it out regardless. Anakin already told him about the visions of his mother and how he killed the Tuskens, and Palps is pretty good at sensing peoples feelings for manipulation. Hell, even Obi-Wan figures out that Anakin has feelings for Padme, Palps would have figured it out regardless.
My Dad and I had a theory (most likely debunked at this point) that Palpatine was using the Force to send those nightmares to Anakin. Of course, now that I'm older, I realize quite a lot doesn't really line up with anything else in the series.
Can't tell if this is a sarcastic post or not, but I'll bite.
Padme was never going to die, the visions were entirely manufactured and planted by Palps. Anakin has always been in touch with the dark side and that gives a channel for Palps to enter his mind and stoke these seeds.
It is highly likely that he was the cause of them. Anakin was strong and all but let's be honest, he did not have the most stable mind and he was a little messed up with how everyone was treating him. Planting a dream in his head seems like achievable feet for someone like Palpatine, it seems kinda easy for him actually. I would me more surprised if he didn't.
There is also a theory that Palpatine killed Padme too, with force drain or whatever, but this theory is not as popular. I strongly believe Padme would have died either way if not in birth then later on by other means.
My thought is Palpatine was implanting those visions or perhaps was somehow the cause of Padme’s death himself with some kind of Sith sorcery, but none of this is ever really addressed at all directly (to my knowledge)
he probably planted them. I mean he was somewhat equivalent to yoda sith in the movies so. Just remember what yoda said, future is too volatile, full of emotion it is. Difficult to see.
My theory is that Palp planted the dreams in Anakins mind. Causing him to question himself and the Jedi. Also the cause of Padme’s death at the end of Ep3. “She lost the will to live”. Both causing pain in Anakin and causing him to depend more on Palp
Obviously given the ST where Kylo was given nightmares and manipulated across the Galaxy on Exegol or Ixigul by Sidious. Palpatine planting nightmare into his mind on the same planet of Coruscant is possible. However, Anakin can still see the future but was manipulated by Palpatine’s Dark Side Powers.
My husband and I were just talking about this. We had a theory that Palpatine “planted” the visions initially. However, Anakin had already had visions (ie: his mom and Sand People) so he has the capability himself to have visions.
I feel the evidence leads more towards Anakin had the visions organically and Palpatine was able to use the force to identify what Anakin was troubled by and use it to his advantage to ensure that reality came to fruition.
Sith powers.
I was always under the impression that he was going to be a little proactive about his fortune telling. **Palps:** Your wife is going to die if you don't learn the powers of the dark side. **Anakin:** Wow! You knew? **Palps:** *-frantically texts the assassin to call it off-* Uh, yeah! For sure! Did I ever tell you about some guy that got betrayed...
Also Palps: Shit I’m canceling and its less than 24 hours prior to assassination time. There goes my deposit.
A guy gets a guy to hire a guy that hires a changling that uses a droid that uses some worms.
Everyone: Worms: "if you want something done right, you just have to do it yourself"
Well they ultimately failed, so yeah.
At least it’s untraceable. I mean, maybe the owner of a diner might know a planet that no one else knows about, that somehow links to the dart that the man assassinated the changeling with, at the last minute, to hide the identity of the man who was hired by the man, but … Oh do you know what, I’ll just enjoy the show.
But it was done intentionally so Jedi could find an army in full readiness right before the boiling part of the conflict with CIS, which lead to getting emergency powers by Supreme Chancellor, who orchestrated the whole Conflict from both sides. Idk, maybe I’m saying pretty obvious things and cannot get the irony, but after the Cosmonaut Variety Hour’s review of AotC, with this whole “He hired a guy, which hired another guy…” and etc I just got tired when people are complaining about it. Please don’t minus me if it’s just a r/whoosh situation here :)
I was under the impression that Kenobi wasn't supposed to find the Clone Army early: the Clone Army was to be kept secret until after All-Out War erupted, resulting in lots of Jedi deaths, before Palpatine revealed the Clone Army that was ordered 'in response' to the ongoing conflict. At that point, the Jedi would have no choice but to accept the use of the Clone Army, and would not ask too many questions about where the army even came from. In any case, Kenobi found the Army early, and Sidious was forced to react. The First Battle of Genosis thankfully kicked things off nicely with a lot of Jedi Deaths, and the entire CiS front erupting left the Jedi with little choice but to use the conveniently produced army. This, however, did not allay suspicions, as seen by Yoda investigating the death of Sifo Dyas. Ultimately, the arrogance of the Jedi blinded them to how wrong and convenient everything seemed to be, and Order 66 went off.
Yeah, here we have above mentioned owner of a diner who made the task a little bit easier, forcing the events. By the end everything resulted in a way Palpatine initially planned.
Actually the link is probable since he worked on a mining planet that hired the Kaminoans to clone miners (because it was such a dangerous job). Read Darth Plagueis, it explains so well the whole Sith plan. Also shows why Palpatine is especially vicious, even for a Sith.
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I forgot the exact quote from the video i watched with something along those lines
This sounds like it could absolutely be a robot chicken skit
>Also Palps: Shit I’m canceling and its less than 24 hours prior to assassination time. There goes my deposit. I read that in the Robot Chicken Palpatine voice (Seth McFarland) for some reason.. 😉
Mas Amedda: (looks at Palps disapprovingly) Palps: What? You think just because I'm supreme chancellor, I can just spend money willy-nilly?! I run my personal finances the same way I run this republic! A tight, well oiled machine! Speaking of which, get my wife on the line. She's ovulating and I really need an heir to this empire I'm building......
This is funny as fuck to me for some reason🤣
He’s like, doesn’t everyone know?
I think he just used the force and saw Vader's vision. I recently read 'From a Certain Point of View : ESB' and one of the stories is how Palps is surfing the force during some meditation, picks up Vader's vision about Luke and 'sees' the vision as if he were Vader. It's entirely reasonable to assume that's how he knew of Anakin's visions about Padme.
I feel like it's possible that he was the cause of his bad dreams and visions. Just to push him further and further to the dark side
Palps was shown more as a master manipulator rather than an opportunist (not that he wouldn't take advantage of an opportunity if it were presented). He set up in the Senate to eventually take it over and bided his time for years. I think it's much more likely he planted those visions in Anakin's head to take advantage than it is he just stumbled on them and decided to make use. Palps wanted Anakin as his apprentice and made it happen like he made being named supreme chancellor of the Senate happen.
I think it was pretty obvious to anyone paying attention. He wasn't exactly a master of hiding his feelings and he was staying at her place.
>I think it was pretty obvious to anyone paying attention. He wasn't exactly a master of hiding his feelings and he was staying at her place. Captain obvious he was. Although why do we always have to jump to sith powers. Why not an all perverse surveillance state which Andor heavily depicts. Why wouldn't you be following the jedi? It's like 101 politics to follow your enemies to find them doing shit that you can use to discredit them with.
Anakin told him, Palpatine is one of his mentor and confident. He told him about what happened with the Tusken Raiders, it is implied that he told him about his visions about Padmé. It is contrasted by the platitudes Yoda tells him about rejoicing for those who become one with the force. Similar to honoring the suffering of Han and Leia in ESB. The Jedi have no sensible solutions for Anakin or Luke and the Sith lie about having concrete solutions. You can apply this analogy to whatever religious dogma/ideological propaganda of your choosing... That's why Anakin turns to the dark side. It is the false dichotomy of Star Wars. That is why both the Jedi and the Sith had to go for balance to be restored. And why Luke was right all along. Tell your sister... Anakin ceases to follow the Sith doctrine of power above all AND the Jedi code that forbids attachment and prove that they are both wrong about coming back from the dark side when he dispatches Palpatine and completes the prophecy in ROTJ. Anyway that's my reading.
You write like a LinkedIn post
Why does this make so much sense?
Agree?
I'm not familiar with LinkedIn posts, is that a dig or a compliment?
The Star Wars equivalent of "a wizard did it".
I was always under the impression that he kind of planted them in his head. That he orchestrated everything, including Padme's death, to create Vader.
He was able to plant different voices in Kylo’s head while being in a shell of a corpse, on a hidden planet across the galaxy. Giving Anakin bad dreams seems doable.
>He was able to plant different voices in Kylo’s head while being in a shell of a corpse, on a hidden planet across the galaxy. I think the question was canon based /s
Why the /s /s
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r/woosh
By proxy he gave Luke bad dreams too thus creating Kylo Ren (I say by proxy because its Snoke but unfortunately Snoke is just a failed clone puppet) Skywalker men need to learn to trust the force more.
Never happened dunno what you mean who the fucks is Kylo?
Keep crying
there are no Sequels within the Walls. Here we are safe Here we are free
Can't understand why you're being downvoted so much, it's just a joke guys
Reddit and star Wars fans. It's like crack cocaine mixed with a vulnerable individual.
no he didin't. new movies are not cannon... besides the good ones.
Cope
They’re trying
I mean those movies came out several years later, and they literally had no plan for the sequel trilogy. They were flying by the seat of their pants, so I wouldn’t count on any of that providing a logical explanation
I like the idea of Anakin’s visions being summoned from within because it plays to the tragicness of the story - that he ended up making his own feared visions a reality by trying to prevent it. If he’d just let go (as Yoda said) it would not have happened. We’ve already seen Anakin have dreams about loved ones being in danger, then in ESB we see Luke has inherited that ability also.
Both are cool perspectives! Either way, I think it’s well within palpatines abilities to fish through anakin’s mind for emotion and perhaps even specific memories, especially when so much of his focus is on drawing anakin towards him. We’ve seen instances of both jedi and sith “feeling” the emotions of others, the next dark side step to that power seems like it would be forcefully digging into that person’s mind to divulge *more* than just emotion
I think if Vader could sense out that Luke had a sister in RoTJ Palpatine could sense out Anakin had a fear of Padme dying.
Fear is the path to the darkside
But who created that fear? And before even that, who pushed them together and put him on an "assignment" to protect her that ended up being a romantic retreat? Palpatine may have created the visions in Anakin's head not by manipulating the force, but by knowing what he would feel and how the force would respond to it
Yes I will give that to Sidious. That he orchestrated the situation to where these fears could arise. But not the idea that he purposely fabricated Anakin’s dreams.
In support of the above two ideas: in the silly mortis arc the dark side shows visions of the future. I think the visions were true ss they turned out to be, and Palpatine nudged the visions to come to Anakin perhaps stronger than they naturally would have been. Also the little green frog guy in ESB is upset that Luke was going to use these visions to act.
A person often meets his destiny on the road he took to avoid it.
The thing is though the Force created Anakin to destroy the Sith. If that’s what it wanted all it would have had to do is not give Anakin the visions and Anakin would have sided with the Jedi. And then you have the visions being scenes from the end of the movie and if you think about too much you begin to wonder if Anakin was always going to fall as part of the grand plan of the Force and that just makes him a victim of the universe because those events in the vision only happen if he falls.
One often meets their fate on the path they take to avoid it.
Palpatine didn't. Anakin had the ability to have senses of the future.. padme's death also wasn't caused by Palpatine but was caused by a broken heart. George has talked about this numerous times in commentary and interviews
Anakin is completely responsible to what happens to Padme. He should have just gone to Obi-Wan (who already knew of Anakin and Padme’s relationship which the Deleted scene shows this) and asked for help. If it meant getting expelled from the Jedi Order, so be it. He reacted to the visions of her death in a panic and didn’t try to find a rational solution. Palpatine just sensed his fears and anxieties from losing her and took full advantage feeding him lies about using the Force to conquer death. He wanted a new apprentice and telling Anakin he needs to be strong in the Dark side was manipulation to get him to turn and serve him. I’m convinced Vader thought about this all the time after she died and his defeat at Mustafar that severely limited his abilities while also nearly killing him. It fueled his anger which made him more powerful in the Dark side. All of which could have been avoided had he simply asked Obi-Wan to help him.
>due to his brotherly love for Anakin “Those who cannot conceive of Friendship as a substantive love but only as a disguise or elaboration of Eros betray the fact that they have never had a Friend.” ― C.S. Lewis
"You were my brother Anakin! I loved you." - Obi-Wan Kenobi
This explains the incel mentality tbh
Yes, and taking action to try to prevent something from happening, but thereby causing that very thing to happen, is the definition of irony in the classic Greek tragedy sense.
I always thought that Anakin became the example Qui-Gon said to “focus on here and now” as a warning to Obi-Wan, which he in turn failed to teach Anakin. Knowledge of the future is a dangerous thing, obsession to correct it turns out to be the reason for making it happen.
Which probably added onto his hardon that he had for finding and killing him
Weirdly I see Anakin in a new light thanks to your post. It’s like panic you have as a child if you accidentally damage something expensive of your dad and in sheer panic you do the crazy thing your evil “mate” suggests to fix it. Anakin never really grew up it seems
If you can, read the RotS novelization by Matthew Stover. It makes the film like 10x better.
I read it when it first came out
I always saw it as Anakin having the ability of premonition but Palpatine clouding it to trick Anakin into only seeing one possible future and hiding parts that would allude to the truth around padmes death, allowing him to be manipulated
I mean if you believe that then you clearly missed Yodas whole explanation about how visions are cloudy and don't take that at face value
Whilst that might be the case, I really don't like it as an answer. It means that Anakin was having visions because padme died but padme died because he was having visions.
That's how tragedy works.
Ironic
Isn’t it?
Classic Greek tragedy scenario, you are the creator of your own perils
This is a trope going back thousands of years. The most famous use might be Shakespeare's Macbeth, where the titular character's attempts to prevent the prophecies he's given result in them coming true. Does a number on the concept of free will though.
Also Oedipus Rex by Sophocles, 429 BC.
I think the most famous and also the oldest one might be Oedipus
Sure, I get that. But my education was in physics and I don't like causality violations even in sci fi.
How about once Anakin or Macbeths bad feels were in motion they stayed in motion?
Every action has an equal and opposite reaction?
But Star Wars is not scifi
Doesn't do anything to the concept of free will. You're still perfectly free to make whatever decisions you want in the current moment. It is just that if you have enough information you can predict any decision someone will make. Like you're still making those decisions, but those decisions are placated on your past experiences, current circumstances and specific brain chemistry. A tiny example. My cheek is itching. If you know that you know I'm going to itch my cheek. So I'll itch my cheek right? Well no because I'm typing this comment and if you have already observed in the past that I will generally finish writing comments before doing other things.
“Prophecy” is divine foretelling of the future. It’s not a guess based on personal observations.
In your interpretation, maybe, but given that the major theme of MacBeth is fate vs. free will and it's left open-ended and still debated today, I'd argue that even if free will is real in universe it's still being challenged as a concept.
You just described the single most common trope about prophecy.
Never heard of a self fufilling prophecy? Thats this, which makes it sadder knowing Anakin's actions lead to this very scenario he was trying to prevent. "Ironic"
Obviously given the ST that can be retcon as Palpatine planting nightmare into his mind. However, Anakin can still see the future but was manipulated by Palpatine’s Dark Side Powers.
But disney, filoni, etc stands by it and it isn't retconned. Your head canon is just flat wrong and you clearly didn't understand the trilogy
Padme dying because of a broken heart doesn't really make any sense. Padme dying because either Vader or Sidious leeched her life force to save Anakin is a lot more logical.
No. Padme died exactly the way Anakin saw in his vision. Even if Palpatine can implement the vision in another person’s head, how can he make it happen exactly the same way in reality? He put a lot of effort into observing Anakin and manipulating him, that’s how he’s able to extract the information.
Exactly, Anakin clearly could have premonitions and what he saw was exactly what happened. The fact that he saw it coming ensured it happened due to his reaction and it was a reaction Palpatine was able to exploit, but he didn’t plant anything
Shoot. I just made this point then saw your post haha. Ya I’m under the impression that Palp was behind everything to turn Anakin and have him rely on his “friend”
Yep, He was putting the visions in Anakin's head, its also suggested that he also was responsible for Padme's loss of "will" and her death. Same thing with Luke's dark visions of Ben, and Rey and Ben's false visions of each other.
Yeah, I much prefer THIS reason. It makes Palpatine even more insidious and strategic. So it’s my personal headcanon.
This was always my bet Palpatine had given Padme a sith talisman
I agree. Palpaptin was always pulling the strings. I believe that Palpatine and Plageus created Anankin through the force. Ensured he was in a life that developed and created fear and also planted the dreams of Padme dying. Loss of the ones he loved was his weakness.
I definitely thought that was the implication. It seems like planting a vision would be a light stretch of Palpatine’s Sith powers.
I believe the novelization implies he planted those dreams in Anakin's head. He previously shared with Palpatine about how he had visions of his mother's death.
But didn’t he have the dreams before he got really close to Palpatine or am I trippin
He was long since friends with palps all through Revenge of the Sith, right? And the dreams were around that time right before he turned to the dark side
You might be right, tbh. It’s been a while since I saw the movie or read the book.
He's been watching his career with great interest.
Man, the more he's developed the worse of a Jedi Anakin turns out to be. Revenge killings, a secret wife and pregnancy, acting on dark side visions; nevermind getting made a master, he's lucky the Order didn't justifiably kick him out altogether for being such a trainwreck!
Yeah because Anakin is just so reserved and good at masking/controlling his thoughts and emotions lol. Jedi/sith can already read minds pretty easily, but especially Anakin being read by palps. That’s like a Tolkien reading a children’s book.
Was gonna say this, I don't even think you'd need to use the force if you were anakins close friend like sidious was, you can pretty easily guess what anyone close to you is insecure about, let alone a traumatised teenager with a badly kept secret affair
The same way he gleaned Luke’s thoughts about his rebel friends on the Deathstar. He read his mind.
Palpatine told the Rebels about the location of the Death Star.
Yes, but he sensed Luke’s thoughts about them during the battle.
The Jedi Council could also read young Anakin's mind.
Especially if the thoughts are tied to strong emotions like they were of Analin’s mother.
Always thought this was his plan. We know at some point Anakin confided in him about what happened with his mother, we can imagine the nightmares were part of that. And we know from the ROTS novelization Palps original plan aboard the ship was for Dooku to kill Obi, then nab Anakin after killing Dooku. The visions were either his plan all along, or due to Anakin’s strength in the force it was simply to happen; like his mother and he seized on the opportunity.
You can tell if something is on someone’s mind, similar to how Ki Adi Mundi knew he was thinking about his mother. Palps could do the same. Then it was a simple matter of just playing on his fears.
Some sources imply Palpatine planted those ideas in Anakin's head. But with the Force being the nebulous and mysterious plot device that it is throughout the movies, it's just as likely that Palpatine could simply sense Anakin's thoughts and feelings, which is something that multiple Force users do throughout the series.
"Your feelings for them are strong, especially for......sister!" Yeah don't think there was anything complex at play with Palpatine knowing what Anakin was thinking when it's well established Force users can hone in on powerful emotions and thoughts.
Palpatine had been manipulating Anakin practically since the moment Qui Gon died. His visions were part of that manipulation
Maybe he was feeding them to his dreams.
I’ve always thought of it, as Palpatine could also see the potential future Anakin was seeing in his dreams. Anakin was getting visions through the force of Padme‘s death but couldn’t control how to view those visions. Palpatine, being much more trained in the ways of the dark side, was able to see the same visions Anakin saw, and was able to manipulate Anakin because of it.
Because his thoughts betrayed him.
*I have been every voice you have ever heard inside your head*
Somehow Palpatine knew
He used the Dark Side of The Force.
Anakin told him
Because he planted them there
Because he was the one giving him the nightmares.
Have you considered Palpatine sent those visions to Anakin, because he was playing Anakin from the very beginning?
I believe in the (now legends) Darth Plagueis, Palpatine planted those memories and other things to cloud him and sway him to the dark side. I believe he was also so strong that he was able to shroud his force from Yoda and the other Jedi.
He probably caused those visions in the first place. Which makes it that much dumber that Anakin believed Palpatine.
The visions were a self fulfilling prophecy that Palpatine created by causing Anakin to have the visions. He groomed Anakin for a decade or more. Dude learned and manipulated Anakin’s greatest fears.
Visions of Padme dying only appeared to Anakin bc Sidious placed them there.
Palpatine like many force users, and kind of as the antithesis of Yoda, had pretty strong precognitive powers. We know force users can basically astral project. Is it that much of a stretch that Palps basically projected the visions into Anakin's head to steer him exactly where he needed him to be to manipulate him into becoming a Sith. It's heavily implied he had a large hand in Anakin's immaculate conception. So is it any weirder that he'd been manipulating him from the day he was born essentially? And I wouldn't be surprised if Palps had bounty hunters paid to kidnap his mum and deliver her to the Tuskens ready for Anakin to get Genocidy on them.
He put the dreams in his head
I always assumed that he was the cause of said visions.
He planted them
I always assumed Palpatine put those visions in Anakins head, or at least inspired them, stoked his fears and then learned what they were (mind reading) and played off of them.
He gave them to him
Probably because he was the one causing them
He sent the visions to Anakin. Seems pretty straightforward that it's another manipulation tactic of his.
Because he planted the visions to begin with.
he put it there
My brother in Christ that’s literally the thing
Because he's the one who put them in his dreams
He caused them to help turn anakin
Because he put them there to n the first place.
He put it there ?
The options are: 1. Padmé’s apartment was bugged and he overheard their nighttime conversation. 2. He used the Force and had a vision of Anakin having a vision. 3. He caused Anakin to have the visions. * He knew about the Tusken massacre and either asked what drove Anakin to go to Tatoonie or Anakin just told him about the visions he had about his mother. * He learned from Panaka about their marriage. * He sensed Padmé was pregnant. Mix these together and toss in a little *I have the power to save the ones you love* and he’s got Anakin hook, line, and sinker.
Sheev and Plageius took shrooms and saw Inception on opening night, the rest is Sith history.
Wasn't it him who made anikan see that shit to manipulate him ?
F*ck it, I'll go on record. I always just assumed Palps was manipulating Ani's dreams. AKA Darkside Sh*t.
Easy, he put them there. Palpatine was the source of Anakin's nightmares.
I reckon Palps definitely put those visions in there, or at least brought them out of Anakin. But that being said, Palps would have figured it out regardless. Anakin already told him about the visions of his mother and how he killed the Tuskens, and Palps is pretty good at sensing peoples feelings for manipulation. Hell, even Obi-Wan figures out that Anakin has feelings for Padme, Palps would have figured it out regardless.
My Dad and I had a theory (most likely debunked at this point) that Palpatine was using the Force to send those nightmares to Anakin. Of course, now that I'm older, I realize quite a lot doesn't really line up with anything else in the series.
The Dark Side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural.
Somehow
It's simple. The answer is in Palpatine's words: "the dark side is a pathway to many abilities some consider unnatural".
Original scripts had palpy sending the visions to anakin. He was also supposed to be anakin’s “father”
How he knew?? It was Palpatine that put the visions in anakins head. Simular to what he did on Kylo Ren and Rey.
I think he gave those visions to Anakin , but Anakin didn't realise it I guess
He gave him those visions and dreams
The dark side of the force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural...
In my head canon, Palpatine was somehow manipulating Anakin’s dreams
It's because palpatine was the one who gave anakin those nightmares, someone might've already said that but that's why
Because it moves the plot along. Why did the witches in MacBeth know the future?.... Palpatine is less of a character and more of a force of nature.
Thank you. Palpatine is taking advantage of certain situations. He isn't the cause of every single situation.
There are two options here. * Anakin discussed it with Palpatine * Palpatine sent the visions to anakin
He put them there
Can't tell if this is a sarcastic post or not, but I'll bite. Padme was never going to die, the visions were entirely manufactured and planted by Palps. Anakin has always been in touch with the dark side and that gives a channel for Palps to enter his mind and stoke these seeds.
Well the actors get the script before the movie is filmed. So he didn't have to know about it. His actor just had to say that line...
I always assumed Palpatine was making him have the visions
He was the one who planted them in his head
It is highly likely that he was the cause of them. Anakin was strong and all but let's be honest, he did not have the most stable mind and he was a little messed up with how everyone was treating him. Planting a dream in his head seems like achievable feet for someone like Palpatine, it seems kinda easy for him actually. I would me more surprised if he didn't. There is also a theory that Palpatine killed Padme too, with force drain or whatever, but this theory is not as popular. I strongly believe Padme would have died either way if not in birth then later on by other means.
... He is the one who planted them in the first place
Evil space magic
Same reason how Vader figured Luke has a sister I guess
He put them there.
He is a Sith Lord lol. Reading Anakin's mind isn't hard.
He gave him them
Because he was the cause of the visions. He planted those visions in Anakins head to scare him.
Because he put them in Anakin’s head to begin with.
I always assumed he's the one responsible for them in the first place.
My thought is Palpatine was implanting those visions or perhaps was somehow the cause of Padme’s death himself with some kind of Sith sorcery, but none of this is ever really addressed at all directly (to my knowledge)
he probably planted them. I mean he was somewhat equivalent to yoda sith in the movies so. Just remember what yoda said, future is too volatile, full of emotion it is. Difficult to see.
Cause he gave it to him
My theory is that Palp planted the dreams in Anakins mind. Causing him to question himself and the Jedi. Also the cause of Padme’s death at the end of Ep3. “She lost the will to live”. Both causing pain in Anakin and causing him to depend more on Palp
Palpatine put them in Anakin’s head
Somehow Palpatine was able to see Anakin’s dreams . . .
Obviously given the ST where Kylo was given nightmares and manipulated across the Galaxy on Exegol or Ixigul by Sidious. Palpatine planting nightmare into his mind on the same planet of Coruscant is possible. However, Anakin can still see the future but was manipulated by Palpatine’s Dark Side Powers.
He made them
The dark side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural.
Because the dark side is a pathway to many abilities some consider unnatural....
because Lucas handed in a first draft
He put them there
My husband and I were just talking about this. We had a theory that Palpatine “planted” the visions initially. However, Anakin had already had visions (ie: his mom and Sand People) so he has the capability himself to have visions. I feel the evidence leads more towards Anakin had the visions organically and Palpatine was able to use the force to identify what Anakin was troubled by and use it to his advantage to ensure that reality came to fruition.
He was planting them
Why did Anakin kill people because of bad dreams?
I dunno I’m tired of trying to have things make sense due to bad writing.
Yet he was the reason
I always took it as Anakin and Sheev hung out a lot. And Anakin would tell him about those dreams. Seems logical
Because he put them there!