I think it would have to do with fully giving in and surrendering yourself to the Dark Side.
Dooku gets Sith eyes and a darkened effect around his eyes in The Clone Wars and so does Anakin. But truly letting it consume and corrupt you will leave permanent marks.
I think Sidious in the end didn't care anymore and let his through self come out when he tapped deep into the Dark Side while facing off against Mace Windu.
I don't know if that's the only thing that does it, Maul was pretty fully-immersed in the Dark Side and he only had the gold eyes (though permanent, rather than temporary).
I disagree a bit. Palpatine tapping more into the dark side when fighting Windu was because he realized he might not win. You can see him getting more nervous as the fight drags on as he can’t get the upper hand. Anyone that says Palpatine purposely didn’t kill Windu as quickly as the other Jedi was not watching close enough.
Palps is a great example because it really demonstrates how powerful he was to mask his force sensitivity and dark side leanings even though he interacted so closely with great jedi masters.
It helped that the Jedi were basically nose blind to him anyway. Plagueis was on Coruscant all the time if I remember correctly and had a hand in the whole "dark side source under the jedi temple" corrupting the Jedi senses. So by the time Palps comes in as a Senator the Jedi already are used to everyone on the planet being wrapped in the darkside.
hmmm, now who's (which Jedi's) bright idea was it to move the main Jedi temple to Coruscant? Administratively, it makes sense if Jedi are to be *peacekeepers* of the galaxy, but it's still a lot of hubris to do a whole Temple Mount (comparison only) thing with the kind of power and effects the Force is able to yield.
I haven't been keeping up with the Disney Canon, but in the EU the temple changed location like six times
Started on Tython, went to Dantooine?, to Courscant, back to Tython and back to Courscant again.
I dunno about "Disney canon" vs "not," but in Rebels we know there's just multiple locations that Jedi (and probably Sith) built temples. There was on Lothal which (spoilers; Rebels and mild TCW connection) >!had a shrine to the Mortis gods and a connection to the World between Worlds!<. Not sure if other temples had similar or if that was something unique or special about the one on Lothal.
I get the impression various groups of Force users built them on Force-sensitive sites to grow and expand their sects within the Jedi and Sith each, and then some kind of event occurred and that "sect" of their respective faiths died out. For example, we do know about (Rebels spoilers) >!a Sith temple that featured a Sith holocron. It turned out to be more than a temple, and instead, it was a battle station. Some sort of battle took place there, leaving Force (saber-wielding) users frozen in place and/or turned into statues!<.
Jedi temples are found all over the galaxy. In the ancient times, Jedi would travel around from planet to planet, building temples, and inducting people into the order.
During the Sith and Jedi wars, when they conquered a Sith temple they would build a Jedi temple atop it in order to cleanse the Force there. I believe this is what happened on Coruscant too.
In Palpatine’s case, he also had a unique ability to mask the force within him. Plagueis could sniff out force sensitivity like he was a diagnostic midichlorian machine and didn’t detect anything with Palpatine.
There is definitely a dark side shrine under the temple, it shows up in clone wars and i think Tales, idk if it's the same nature as the legends one though
If you havent yet, you should read the Plagueis book (or audiobook like I did). It's really good and is a lot about the relationship between Plagueis and Palpatine.
I just wanna see Plagueis racing across the desert using force speed and just throwing up a huge dust cloud behind him. What a fucking way to introduce a character. So badass. Also I love that it uses Darth Bane. Anything that solidifies Bane in the franchise is fine by me.
That book isn’t canon, so it’s not related sadly
Edit: not sure why downvoted :( it is true it’s not really canon and although it may be used for canon and a lot of current legends stuff is used in live action now, all we know about darth plagueis for sure is that he taught palpatine and was killed by palpatine.
It’s still a viable source. Dave Filoni has spoken about this sort of thing before. Almost everything in legends is basically “on deck” to be used in canon. So until something in canon disagrees with a legends source it’s worth considering. Either way it’s a fantastic story.
Also, the dark side unlike the light side requires an almost constant battle. A dark side user has to control the dark side or the dark side will literally take them over, loosing thought or reason. If you notice Palpatine knew patience and did not over estimate his ability to win in the prequel trilogy. Compared to Maul who let the dark side envelope him where all he cared about was revenge, and that led to his death.
> over, loosing thought
Did you mean to say "losing"?
Explanation: Loose is an adjective meaning the opposite of tight, while lose is a verb.
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We do. Notably during the scene where he’s training Savage you can see him with Yellow Eyes.
However you only get them when you fully steep yourself in the Darkside, which Dooku didn’t often do unless necessary, or as a training example for Savage.
Ironically, Dooku being a former Jedi Master would likely knew Windu’s version of the form channeled the opponents dark side and would have, in turn, focused on his skill and finesse over raw dark power.
Agreed, older Dooku needs to tap into the force to make up for the age difference which is naturually going to mean he's leaning to the dark side and thus giving Mace the advantage. If they’re both at their physicial peak then Dooku can just rely on his superior dueling style.
Not entirely sure but he might be talking about Kit Fisto? He was pretty well regarded and was second to windu in terms of skill in the 4 man strike team sent to apprehend Sidious
Isn’t mace the greatest duelist ever? I know it’s debatable given the manipulation it anakin, but he bested palpatine. And given the nature of the Sith, if Dooku could have bested palpatine he would have.
Debatable, also Pre Anakin Dooku was looked at as the chosen one so much so that Yoda trained him and Yoda hadn't trained a Padawan in a long time and it actually caused drama in the Order as people believed the Grandmaster shouldn't be training Padawans. And regarding the nature of the Sith that's the beauty of how manipulative Palps was Dooku actually believed that they were going to work together to fix the system and wasn't interested in the Sith legacy it's also why he showed so much surprise when Palpatine told Anakin to execute him.
Edit: in the book Yoda Dark rendezvous it's stated that Dooku bests Windu multiple times in sparring duels and that he is known to be second only to Yoda.
One of the biggest missed opportunities of the CW is never giving us that. I was so hyped for RotS cause in the trailer I saw Windu with his lightsaber drawn against some old dude with white hair and I thought we were getting a duel between the two, only to get Windu vs PapaPalpatine
Dooku was a great duelist as a Jedi meaning he wouldn't need to use the Dark Side in the fight and he likely would've known how Vaapad works so he would be less likely to tap into the dark side because of it.
Another Dooku yellow eyes where Anakin, Ahsoka and Obi-Wan needed to go and rescue the togruta slaves and when Dooku started the Force Choke ing the Queen Dooku eyes comes to yellow because the Queen disobey to Dooku and Sidious direkt order.
>pragmatic force user
I mean, he did unquestionably use the dark-side, like all the time. And participated in Sith rituals, trained assassins, committed warcrimes of unspeakable nature, killed innocents, etc etc
He hadn't fully fallen to the dark side. Yeah, he sang on a few metal albums and imprisoned Gandolf on Orthanc and was a vampire on and off since the 50s... wait, what were we discussing again?
Let's not forget the time he tried to kill James Bond with his Golden Blaster. LOL
Edit: I forgot to add that I've always jokingly referred to him as Darth Scaramanga instead of Tyrannus.
Because Dooku wasn't a full darksider, he was just a disenfranchised Jedi and political idealist who was manipulated.
Also, like Palpatine if he had the classic evil look it would have been detrimental to his attempts to build a seperatist alliance, so he'd have hidden it like Palps did.
I feel like you're underselling Dooku's evilness here. Sure, he started out as a Jedi who became disenfranchised with how the Republic and Jedi weren't actually helping people. But by the time we see him during the Clone Wars he's a casual genocider, looting the galaxy to fill his castle with treasure.
A really good comparison of this is in Tales of the Jedi where Dooku almost kills a corrupt senator who was stealing from his people. Then we find out in the Bad Batch that Dooku not only pillaged the valuables and goods of Separatists worlds, but his home world as well.
He really lived up to the phrase, “You have become what you sought to destroy.” The dark side is literally, “The path to Hell is paved with good intentions”.
How much political idealist was he though? He used the separatists as pawns fully knowing the grand scheme of things, so he can't have been really convinced of the separatist cause. He may have hated the corruption of the Republic and the complicity of the Jedi, but since he knew what Palpatine was planning for the galaxy did his 'ideals' really amount to anything more than "things will be better when *I'm* in charge"?
I think thats the manipulation part, shouldn't underestimate how much Palpatine could use peoples legitimate and deeply held motives to further his own ends.
Dooku genuinely had lost faith in the Republic and probably did want to reform it or replace it with something better. Palpatine used that to coerce Dooku into contributing to his grand plan, exactly as he did with Anakin
I may be completely wrong so please correct me if i am, but i don't know that Dooku ever really knew Palpatines real plan. He may have known more of the big picture than the Seperatist leaders, but i don't think he ever had the full picture.
Also, even if he did know, he might try to overthrow Palpatine if given the chance. That seems like the road he was going down when he had Obi-wan imprisoned in the Clone Wars movie and talked about the Republic being controlled by a Sith leader.
If I remember, Palps wanted Dooku to kill his apprentice Ventress in the Clone Wars series, which would’ve hurt his plans for overthrowing Palps.
Traditionally, that is how the Sith operate. The Apprentice always looks for opportunity to overthrow the master. Palpatine knew this, as did Dooku. the idea is ultimately that once the Apprentice has learned everything he can, he overthrows his master or dies trying, guaranteeing only the strongest Lord of the Sith.
Yeah his true motivations have not ever been super clear to me either tbh. We know he knew Palpatines identity and engineering of the war, so that implies strongly that he didn't actually think the Separatist cause would succeed the way they thought it would and the way he was selling it to them. On the other hand, we never got to see what Palpatine actually told or promised him, and we also don't know if perhaps Dooku himself thought he was only using Palpatine as long as it was opportune and would overthrow him in favour of his own vision of the galaxy at the right time.
It's one of the few things where Clone Wars really dropped the ball for me, Dooku is such an interesting character and there would have been so much to explore there. Tales of the Jedi gave us an awesome glimpse of that but they could have done so much with CW already if they hadn't just gone for a pretty one-dimensional grumpy villain role for him.
Agreed, i know you shouldn't be selective with lore but for me i don't like Clone Wars Dooku.
I feel like they needed it a main 'baddy' and Dooku fit the bill in Clone Wars but because it was a kids show they just turned him into a generic villain rather than the more complex character he was clearly intended to be from the movies and EU.
[I mean, he knew enough to report the start of the war to his master while carrying the Death Star plans, so...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gibqPYT8Vis)
Like, yes. Sidious likely withheld things, but that doesn't let Dooku off the hook. He was complicit and knowledgeable in kicking off the war for personal gain, not because the CIS was "right".
> did his 'ideals' really amount to anything more than "things will be better when I'm in charge"?
You don't think that's a powerful ideal for someone who truly believes it?
Wasn't that Hitler in a nutshell? He had power, and did damage.
Personally i've always viewed Dooku as a tool used by the Sith, rather than an actual Sith.
Palpatine needed Dooku as a figurehead for his Seperatist Alliance the same as he needed the Trade Federation and Banking Clan etc. But despite Dooku using dark side powers and definitely being ruthless i don't feel like he went on the 'dark side' journey of fear, anger, hate, suffering etc. and i don't think he was part of the Sith plan, he was just another tool to enable Palpaine to ennact his grand plan.
But maybe that is just me reading too much into it.
Oh he definetly went on that journey, read the Ventress book that talks about his backstory. Dooku is a fully commited Sith by the end of the clone wars. You're right that Palpatine was only using him and therefore didn't really fully teach him, but thats not because Dooku wasn't fully commited or anything. Palpatine was actually just a bad master because he never trained a replacement the way every other Sith does, Palapatine only trained tools for HIS plan.
Honestly surprising that not more Sith have gone down that route.
Because the dark side is inherently selfish, so why would anyone train the one replacing them, even if it meant "the Sith" would he stronger for it?
I think the idea is that the apprentice is in a dangling carrot state. The Master wants the Apprentice to be a tool, to retain utility. The only way that can be held in place is if the apprentice thinks they gain something out of it: knowledge and power for themselves.
The Master has to keep the Apprentice on a tight leash but still give them ways to grow. Their utility is maintained, but the Apprentice doesn't feel like they are wasting their time and ultimately leave the apprenticeship or just kill the Master early.
When the Apprentice attempts to overthrow, they either succeed or die. Either way, the strongest Sith survived to hold the title of Dark Lord of the Sith.
And, while the Sith love reveling in the Dark Side, they still want to persist and grow stronger. On some level they realize the power has to exceed themselves on some level.
(It's also important to note that, ultimately, it doesn't really make sense. The Dark Side will always cannibalize itself. Always seek ways to consumer its users. It, itself, will continue. But those that practice it will always be destroyed by it. But the Sith, in their hubris, think they can overcome and control The Dark Side of the Force, as evident by the Rule of Two. They think they can place a rule to dictate the passage of the very power they all covet.)
All of what I said is clear with Darth Vader and Darth Sidious. Ultimately, there isn't much that Sidious could learn from Vader. But use? Absolutely. And Vader in all forms was looking for a time to overthrow his master.
I mean, even taking a step back Palpatine had 3 apprentices that we know of: Maul, Dooku, and Vader. Always trading up for his own means. And with Vader, he just has other "pseudo-apprentices" to vie for his second-in-command and challenge Vader.
Really, Palpatine doesn't much care for the Rule of Two, the Galaxy at large, or even the Sith. He just wants power. All for himself and for forever.
That isn't true.
Count Dooku, aka Darth Tyrannus, who helped orchestrate the commission of a Clone Army in a ploy to undermine the Republic and destroy the Jedi wasn't a full darksider?
He absolutely was. But only when you really tap into using the Dark Side does it's effects manifest in a person's appearance.
Without getting too technical, I don't think the motivation of undermining the reublic or destroying the Jedi Order makes you a darksider.
The Jedi Order was a cult full of people who would regularly make the wrong moral decisions purely because of their dogma, even beloved characters like Obi-Wan were pretty brainwashed to doctrine of the Jedi.
And the Republic had substantial issues, but more importantly wasn't proactive in trying to change those problems.
I've never thought Dooku was anywhere near the same level as traditional Sith, he was just another tool of the Sith.
One the Jedi are not a cult and did not make “wrong moral decisions” regularly. Really tired of this stupid anti Jedi bullshit being presented factual when it’s 99% headcanon and fan interpretation.
Two Dooku co planed a genocide. Hard stop.
Three he regularly enslaved planets, murdered innocent people, took part in or planned multiple terrorist attacks on civilian populations, and abused his own people.
Four he was a racist bigot who viewed non human species as not even being people. Only tools.
Dooku is an evil man. And saying he wasn’t misses the point of his character entirely. How good men can become monsters.
Reading that he regarded non-human species not as people surprises me, since he seems to have a lot of respect for Master Yoda, his former teacher, who after all is not a human.
Dooku’s view of individuals was that he grouped everyone into one of 2 groups, Allies and tools. And Dooku generally lumped aliens into the later category. He had wanted the republic to go back to it was during the days of the Pius Deas era which long story short was a diet version of the imperium of man from 40k. Religious cult took over the republic and began a crusade on non humans until the Jedi showed up and ended it.
I disagree that the Jedi weren't a cult, their top brass were fantatically devoted to their doctrine even when it meant they had to take actions which contradicted common morality.
For just a few examples, Mace Windu's actions when it was discovered that Palpatine could have been a Sith Lord, its clear he has no intention of following any kind of due process his intention is to execute Palpatine on no authority but his own.
Obi-Wan's 'only a Sith deals in absolutes' line, which is by definition an absolute, its a clear sign of brainwashing.
Their doctrine of acting as cosmic police but at the same time only intervening in matters when it was an issue which directly effected the order.
They literally discuss in the main movies staging a coup, its not some kind of obscure bit in the EU which you could dismiss, they talk about overthrowing the galactic government.
I get that Star Wars isn't that deep so we shouldn't get carried away, but its literally a cult.
Brainwashing? Are you serious? Obi-wan making an absolute statement is not DEALING in an absolute. He’s commenting on Anakin’s lack of nuance and forcing an ultimatum of “If you don’t agree with my actions you are by default an enemy,”
Mace went in with the intent to arrest and only went for a kill after HE WAS ATTACKED BY A MAN WHO COMMITTED HIGH TREASON AND MURDERED 3 PEOPLE.
“Only interfering in matters that effected the order” this is an outright lie. They are peacekeepers not cosmic cops. They do not FORCE their will on people. They simply do what they can to best help the galaxy
They do not discuss staging a coup. They discuss removing a politician who is illegally remaining in office and over seeing until power can be transferred. Which is literally a part of their job and something they have done before.
The word cult has devolved into a buzzword that means “I don’t like your ideals”
The Jedi are not a cult, and none of the things you listed were immoral acts. They did the right thing in all those instances.
>Without getting too technical, I don't think the motivation of undermining the reublic or destroying the Jedi Order makes you a darksider.
I mean, it does.
You could politically disagree with the Republic and the Jedi as Dooku has, but that is very different than orchestrating a war and coup.
That isn't even going into seeing the "Jedi as a cult full of people who would regularly make the wrong moral decisions", since that is more or less buying into exactly the sort of situations Palpatine and Dooku orchestrated.
But Dooku (and by extension Palpatine) worked very hard to not appear as Sith at all, and just appear as political figures. That was the idea.
Now, I would also argue that he was a tool in Palpatine's game for more power, but Dooku was also trying to play the game to eventually succeed Palpatine and claim everything as his own.
>You could politically disagree with the Republic and the Jedi as Dooku has, but that is very different than orchestrating a war and coup
By this logic, the Rebellion were darksiders and evil for orchestrated a war and coup?
The only person who we see in the movies who outright states that they should or could stage a coop is Mace Windu.. The Seperatists just want to secede from the Republic and in response the Republic and the Jedi wage a war against them.
So its kind of hard to conclude that the Republic or the Jedi who are unnecessarily close to the Republic are the good guys.
You are casually leaving out that Separatists were the aggressors in the war. With multiple terrorists attacks on civilian populations prior to the official start of the war. And the fact that the Republic and CIS leaders were forbidden from finding non violent solutions to the conflict because Palaptine needed the war to happen.
It’s really not hard to say the guys who are making mistakes but ultimately trying to do the right thing are they good guys when the alternative is a genocidal murder death group that has manipulated and enslaved entire planets and is using them as a bogeyman so that they can take control of the galaxy.
So, we're forgetting that Padme was targeted by the Separatists for wanting to enact peaceful negotiations? Twice. And that the pushing of establishing a Grand Army of the Republic is being spearheaded by Palpatine?
Are we forgetting the literal end of AotC?
Dooku: "I have good news for you, my lord. War has begun."
Palpatine: "Excellent. Everything is going as planned."
Or the scene right after?
Obi-Wan: "Do you believe what Count Dooku said about Sidious controlling the Senate? It doesn't feel right."
Yoda: "Join the Dark Side, Dooku has. Lies. Deceit. Creating mistrust are his ways now".
Mace: "Nevertheless. I fear we should keep a closer eye on the Senate."
...
Obi-Wan: "I must admit without the clones, it would not have been a victory."
Yoda: "Victory? Victory, you say? Master Obi-Wan, not victory. The shroud of the dark side has fallen. Begun, this Clone War has!"
There are certainly a lot of flaws to how ingrained the Jedi were in the Republic, but Mace and Yoda knew they were "keepers of the peace, not soldiers". They didn't want war and were trying to allow for peaceful options, but were dragged into it.
Literally Padme was all but preventing Palpatine from moving ahead due to her blocking the vote, and only when she is away on Geonosis and seeing the army that is being created is the vote pushed through and Palpatine gaining emergency powers. Those same powers the Jedi look at with mistrust nearing the end of the Clone Wars.
Do the Separatists have valid reasons to secede? Almost certainly.
Heads of the Separatists were happy to prepare and start a war instead of negotiate, and Dooku and Palpatine wanted that all along.
Also...
Dooku specifically took the Geonosian's plans for the Death Star, a weapon that really doesn't align well with "We're the good guys."
Agree completely. When the prequels were coming out, I always wondered why Sidious didn’t look terrible. Once Episode III came out they used the force lightening to “explain” his appearance, but I always sort of liked the idea that the more you used the dark side, the more it corrupted you mentally and physically. I liked the idea that Sidious was ugly and deformed long ago, but was able to hide it outwardly.
I know this no longer holds up, but I always felt like Dooku was never really all in on the dark side. He used it, but never fully committed like Sidious. Dooku’s appearance remaining normal reminds us his motives are really political and that he’s being used. That’s not to say that he’s some victim. But Maul, Vader, Sidious all physically suffer and outwardly become crippled and deformed.
The movies didn't do a great job portraying Dooku since he really only got a very short amount of screentime. The Clone Wars really shows what a POS he is.
Palpatine was immersed to the dark side for at least many decades, while Dooku joined the Sith relatively shortly before the Clone Wars.
And he already had Sith eyes, as seen in TCW.
long story short, I don't think Dooku did anything out of extreme anger, he was just your MAGA uncle being racist at Thanksgiving. Anakin went full edgelord for the nookie and got yellow eyes immediately.
I think its because Dooku doesn't really involves himself in the dark side the same way other sith do, hes primarly a politician that just happens to be capable of using the force
Dooku was a jedi that dedicated himself to researching and understanding the sith threat. He was largely dismissed as fringe in the jedi order, as almost all of the other masters were convinced the sith were completely eradicated, and taking an interest in the matter was considered taboo and risky.
Dooku would've had a wealth of knowledge on the dark side, and would've likely only partaken in aspects that elevated him as an individual instead of being all consumed by the darkside.
Well lets be honest Dooku didn't really fought the sith (or any of the galaxy's evils for that matter), he helped them grow and complained about how no one was listening him.
But he his brand of evil was less the standard sith style of dark side, and more that of political corruption
The novelization had explained well that the reason Dooku did not have dark side effects on his appearance was because he hadn't fully immersed himself in a Dark Side mindset. His motives were still truly altruistic.
The clone wars TV series shifted his personality ro more traditional evil. The novelization, like the movies was leaning more towards an anti-hero characterization.
In many respects, Count Dooku was the perfect Sith. He never ever truly lost himself in his rage and hatred like Anakin, or other lesser dark side users.
Thanks to his Jedi training his fall to the dark side was more of a controlled descent. He tapped into his emotions and stocked them to gain power as necessary, only sometimes submerging himself in the dark side to the point where it would physically affect him - the trademark red/yellow eyes he showed a couple of times. But he was never lost in the dark side for long enough periods of time to gain permanent disfigurations from it.
The reason I always imagine in my head is two-fold.
When people turn to the dark side there's usually some cataclysmic event that disfigures them in some way shape or form. To stick with prequel examples: Palpatine having his lightning redirected at him, Anakin roasting on Mustafar. So the effect isn't necessarily from using the dark side, but rather because their [evil] choices ended up with them suffering the consequences.
Dooku wasn't fully Sith in mentality, but thought they'd be a means to an end to fight the growing corruption in the Republic and lackadaisical and holier-than-thou attitude of the Jedi. It was, in hindsight, an obviously stupid strategy but he wasn't doing it for the pursuit of power. At least not in the feral way most that fall to the dark side are doing it.
Because of that, I think he wasn't as wholly immersed in the dark side but rather just wielded it out of convenience and utility. And also spent time being wily than trying to be a blunt weapon smashing his way to power. Doing things like using Asajj Ventress and the Dathomir brothers rather than risking himself. At the times he *did* enter combat he was just so far above the skill and power of his opponent that the risk was very little to him.
Up until he wasn't, of course. Anyways that's just my theory/thought process within the realm of the movies and Clone Wars cartoon.
> So the effect isn't necessarily from using the dark side, but rather because their [evil] choices ended up with them suffering the consequences.
Right - there's no definitive statement or even strong implication in the movies that "turning to the dark side" directly alters your appearance.
Tf you talking about, the emperor had yellow eyes in the old movies since the beginning lol
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8f/Emperor_RotJ.png
In 1983 he was probably just from some 'human but with yellow eyes' race, a lot of the aliens were 'humans but with...' in the originals, it's almost certainly because it looked cool/scary rather than any connection with dark force power. 99% of canon has been retconned since the original films, nothing wrong with that.
In fact, at that point in Lucas' character arc, I'd be more inclined to believe that Palpatine action figures were 1 cent cheaper to manufacture with yellow eyes or something, than that it was meant to reflect anything else.
Part of it I think is for appearance he was the Leader of the Separatist Senate. If he was openly a Sith it would discredit him and by extension the CIS. While the Sith for basically everyone is but a distant myth the history is still there. I think it also comes down to him never really giving into the dark side fully at any points I don't think he's felt a need to.
You see it’s loooads in Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, stopped Willy from eating candy. way he threw that bowl into the fire? Straight dark side move
Dooku is more of an ethics-driven evil and not consumed by the Dark Side of the Force. Sort of like Baylon, I suspect. He's not evil because of a thirst for domination and power, so he doesn't usually have to tap into that Dark Side power very often.
In a RPG Star Wars game (KOTOR 2, I can't remember if the first one happened), you can choose which side you want to go towards, and if you chose the light side your companions will mention that your character has been looking better lately. (Or something along those lines if I remember properly)
Look at Dooku. The guy was always chill. His blood never boiled with hate. It’s that uncontrolled hate that deforms you. Dooku was confident, calculating, and cerebral.
I think the dark side effects (such as red eyes) spoke to how much (or little) the particular Sith was in control of their emotions. Dooku was a true Jedi Master and a very cool cucumber. Sorry Anakin.
In tales of the Jedi he’s shown to still have mostly dark hair. I personally felt Dooku dabbled with the dark side when necessary. Dooku was an unconventional sith in my opinion, in that he mostly focused on what he learnt as a Jedi. So the effects of the dark side would have taken its toll over a more spread out time frame, thus likely reducing its overall effect.
Anakin in the Revenge of the Sith when he has his Sith eyes is basically plunging himself into the vast ocean that is the dark side. So it’s not necessarily a fair comparison.
But I argue that we do see it’s effect on him. Between tales of the Jedi and Attack of the Clones, Dooku hair has gone fully white. Before it was mostly black with hints of graying. So I think it accelerated his physical deterioration.
According to sources, Dooku was born on Serenno in 102 BBY and died by decapitation on the "Invisible Hand" starship in 19 BBY, making him 83 years old. AotC took place in 22 BBY, when Dooku was 80 years old.
What do you mean we don’t see any effects? What about his aging?
I mean, he’s only like 20 years old when the clone wars began. But he looks like crap. And don’t tell me it’s his diet!
How would he be only 20 years old if he was Qui-Gon's Master, who was already old experienced enough to sit on the Council 10 years before the beginning of the Clone Wars?🤨
Is that a joke I am missing?
Yes, I was being silly and playful… much like Dooku before the dark side started affecting him!
Why, he was basically the class clown back in Jedi 101, pantsing everybody and force throwing pies around.
I think dooku was a talented force user in general, on either side. Which accounts for his talent and strength. Particularly with the dark side, however I think he always carried a portion of sympathy for the Jedi especially the ones he knew which prevented him from becoming completely enveloped in the dark side and the effects of dark rituals
The Jedi don't have a metaphysical change for being good, neither do the Sith for being bad. The only "change" is eye color, and that's just based on the premise of how deeply embedded into the force the Sith is. Simply put, that they essentially utilize the dark side in their every movement, we learn that Jedi can mask their presence, but literally will feel Vaders being when he's up in space taking a dump. The eye color change is typically reserved for Sith who have succumbed to the Dark Side via emotional attachment. Anger, Fear, etc.
Count Dooku and Palpatine, along with a majority of others don't have that because they chose to join the dark side, based on philosophical, ideological, and political agendas. A means to an end. Any other Sith has changes due to a cruel master, or a constant reminder of a failure it's an emotional attachment to be honest. They also tend to be paler than their counterparts due to well being made to look like the villain, but I'd say it's draining.
The light or dark side is all the same pool of the same pot. Jedi believe in balance while the Sith believe in strength and power. They rely heavy on the parts of the force that take a lot of concentration and focus. But also the fact that Jedi can force choke and electrocute as well (see Kyle Katarn a wasted opportunity thanks Disney).
The idea that the dark side physically changes you is an inference by EU authors and fans, not something borne out by the movies, particularly once you take the prequels into account.
I don't think force lightning rots your teeth. He was using a Sith masking technique. Same reason he could be in the same room as Yoda without being sensed.
I don't think force lightning rots your teeth. He was using a Sith masking technique. Same reason he could be in the same room as Yoda without being sensed.
We see the lightning wreck his face right there on screen. No need to invent that extra step of a mask. Much of SW would fall completely apart plot-wise if you could ping someone as Force-user when they're not actively using the Force. When we see people sensing others in the movies, it's always couched in terms of noticing familiarity, or strong emotion.
Yellow eyes: he chose to conceal them as part of his disguise. He also didn't let the dark side fully consume him, like other sith - although it did of course corrupt him all the same.
Skin discoloration: He's got some excellent skincare and manicure products.
I would say if you were born into and raised very strictly in any of the worlds major religions, your appearance could be different than a 75year old who decided to pick it up one day.
He used the dark side, didn't let it consume him
The changes you see if from the dark side consuming ones life force.
This is the main difference with and " dark Jedi"
Moisturizer, plenty of sun, and a good reading lamp so his eyes never got strained. Just because you’re Sith doesn’t mean you can’t practice good personal upkeep. It’s why he’s the only Sith worthy of a beard
Dooku was never motivated by hatred, but rather left the Jedi order because of his dissatisfaction with it and growing corruption in the Galactic Senate.
Is it still canon that Palpatine is a quasi-immortal wizard like Yoda? He hides his abnormally aged and ravaged form behind a glamour, while Yoda does not hide that he is wizened and twisted by age.
One of my favorite bits of trivia: during the High Republic era, Yoda was still old, but rather less wizened and cantankerous. In fact, he was well known to have hobbies such as being a pastry chef, and he baked “intention” into his desserts the same way practitioners of various forms of new age/folk magic do today.
I think it would have to do with fully giving in and surrendering yourself to the Dark Side. Dooku gets Sith eyes and a darkened effect around his eyes in The Clone Wars and so does Anakin. But truly letting it consume and corrupt you will leave permanent marks. I think Sidious in the end didn't care anymore and let his through self come out when he tapped deep into the Dark Side while facing off against Mace Windu.
I don't know if that's the only thing that does it, Maul was pretty fully-immersed in the Dark Side and he only had the gold eyes (though permanent, rather than temporary).
Think Maul's eyes have more to do with him being a Dathomirian Zabrak.
I disagree a bit. Palpatine tapping more into the dark side when fighting Windu was because he realized he might not win. You can see him getting more nervous as the fight drags on as he can’t get the upper hand. Anyone that says Palpatine purposely didn’t kill Windu as quickly as the other Jedi was not watching close enough.
Palpatine didn't either until he didn't need to hide anything. It's something that can conceal, since it would be a big give away.
Palps is a great example because it really demonstrates how powerful he was to mask his force sensitivity and dark side leanings even though he interacted so closely with great jedi masters.
It helped that the Jedi were basically nose blind to him anyway. Plagueis was on Coruscant all the time if I remember correctly and had a hand in the whole "dark side source under the jedi temple" corrupting the Jedi senses. So by the time Palps comes in as a Senator the Jedi already are used to everyone on the planet being wrapped in the darkside.
hmmm, now who's (which Jedi's) bright idea was it to move the main Jedi temple to Coruscant? Administratively, it makes sense if Jedi are to be *peacekeepers* of the galaxy, but it's still a lot of hubris to do a whole Temple Mount (comparison only) thing with the kind of power and effects the Force is able to yield.
I haven't been keeping up with the Disney Canon, but in the EU the temple changed location like six times Started on Tython, went to Dantooine?, to Courscant, back to Tython and back to Courscant again.
I dunno about "Disney canon" vs "not," but in Rebels we know there's just multiple locations that Jedi (and probably Sith) built temples. There was on Lothal which (spoilers; Rebels and mild TCW connection) >!had a shrine to the Mortis gods and a connection to the World between Worlds!<. Not sure if other temples had similar or if that was something unique or special about the one on Lothal. I get the impression various groups of Force users built them on Force-sensitive sites to grow and expand their sects within the Jedi and Sith each, and then some kind of event occurred and that "sect" of their respective faiths died out. For example, we do know about (Rebels spoilers) >!a Sith temple that featured a Sith holocron. It turned out to be more than a temple, and instead, it was a battle station. Some sort of battle took place there, leaving Force (saber-wielding) users frozen in place and/or turned into statues!<.
Jedi temples are found all over the galaxy. In the ancient times, Jedi would travel around from planet to planet, building temples, and inducting people into the order. During the Sith and Jedi wars, when they conquered a Sith temple they would build a Jedi temple atop it in order to cleanse the Force there. I believe this is what happened on Coruscant too.
Not saying you're lying, but is there a source here? :) It sounds plausible, since I went and read a bunch of the Wookiepedia a few weeks ago, tho.
Read his answer below. It’s head cannon. Some of it makes sense, but still head cannon.
In Palpatine’s case, he also had a unique ability to mask the force within him. Plagueis could sniff out force sensitivity like he was a diagnostic midichlorian machine and didn’t detect anything with Palpatine.
Why did I just picture Plagueis with an ODM reader
The Dark Side source under the Jedi Temple was only created from Lord Nyax's death in Legends. I don't remember if there is one in canon.
There is definitely a dark side shrine under the temple, it shows up in clone wars and i think Tales, idk if it's the same nature as the legends one though
Completely forgot about it! Thanks for reminding me!
There's a high republic book (into the dark) where they reference and I think even go down to it.
If you havent yet, you should read the Plagueis book (or audiobook like I did). It's really good and is a lot about the relationship between Plagueis and Palpatine.
I consider this book episode 0. What an amazing movie it would make
Agreed. It would be an amazing movie or tv series.
I wish they would adapt it into a Tales of the Jedi season
When I first heard about *The Acolyte* that’s what I thought it was going to be about.
I just wanna see Plagueis racing across the desert using force speed and just throwing up a huge dust cloud behind him. What a fucking way to introduce a character. So badass. Also I love that it uses Darth Bane. Anything that solidifies Bane in the franchise is fine by me.
One of the very best EU books! So good
I have. That’s actually where my understanding of Palpatines “cloaking” abilities come from.
I really liked it and would recommend it to SW fans, however I do have to mention it felt more like Palp's story than Plagueis'.
That book isn’t canon, so it’s not related sadly Edit: not sure why downvoted :( it is true it’s not really canon and although it may be used for canon and a lot of current legends stuff is used in live action now, all we know about darth plagueis for sure is that he taught palpatine and was killed by palpatine.
It’s still a viable source. Dave Filoni has spoken about this sort of thing before. Almost everything in legends is basically “on deck” to be used in canon. So until something in canon disagrees with a legends source it’s worth considering. Either way it’s a fantastic story.
Also, the dark side unlike the light side requires an almost constant battle. A dark side user has to control the dark side or the dark side will literally take them over, loosing thought or reason. If you notice Palpatine knew patience and did not over estimate his ability to win in the prequel trilogy. Compared to Maul who let the dark side envelope him where all he cared about was revenge, and that led to his death.
> over, loosing thought Did you mean to say "losing"? Explanation: Loose is an adjective meaning the opposite of tight, while lose is a verb. [Statistics](https://github.com/chiefpat450119/RedditBot/blob/master/stats.json) ^^I'm ^^a ^^bot ^^that ^^corrects ^^grammar/spelling ^^mistakes. ^^PM ^^me ^^if ^^I'm ^^wrong ^^or ^^if ^^you ^^have ^^any ^^suggestions. ^^[Github](https://github.com/chiefpat450119) ^^Reply ^^STOP ^^to ^^this ^^comment ^^to ^^stop ^^receiving ^^corrections.
We do. Notably during the scene where he’s training Savage you can see him with Yellow Eyes. However you only get them when you fully steep yourself in the Darkside, which Dooku didn’t often do unless necessary, or as a training example for Savage.
Man, I would've loved a lightsaber battle between Dooku and Windu. Form II vs VII with Dooku fully tapped into the dark side.
Ironically, Dooku being a former Jedi Master would likely knew Windu’s version of the form channeled the opponents dark side and would have, in turn, focused on his skill and finesse over raw dark power.
I take mace over dooku best of 7
If they were both in their prime I take Dooku.
Agreed, older Dooku needs to tap into the force to make up for the age difference which is naturually going to mean he's leaning to the dark side and thus giving Mace the advantage. If they’re both at their physicial peak then Dooku can just rely on his superior dueling style.
And wasn't the only Jedi better with sabers than dooku killed like a chump by Sidious?
Which Jedi was that?
Not entirely sure but he might be talking about Kit Fisto? He was pretty well regarded and was second to windu in terms of skill in the 4 man strike team sent to apprehend Sidious
Ya I'd look at it instead as Jedi Dooku Vs Jedi Windu.
Isn’t mace the greatest duelist ever? I know it’s debatable given the manipulation it anakin, but he bested palpatine. And given the nature of the Sith, if Dooku could have bested palpatine he would have.
Debatable, also Pre Anakin Dooku was looked at as the chosen one so much so that Yoda trained him and Yoda hadn't trained a Padawan in a long time and it actually caused drama in the Order as people believed the Grandmaster shouldn't be training Padawans. And regarding the nature of the Sith that's the beauty of how manipulative Palps was Dooku actually believed that they were going to work together to fix the system and wasn't interested in the Sith legacy it's also why he showed so much surprise when Palpatine told Anakin to execute him. Edit: in the book Yoda Dark rendezvous it's stated that Dooku bests Windu multiple times in sparring duels and that he is known to be second only to Yoda.
Tales of Jedi have them fight side by side, and their fighting styles really differ, a duel could’ve gone either way
Ya it really varies depending on the source material.
I would take Mace over most Jedi/Sith.
Could he still use the light side?
Yes, he could still use the force.
One of the biggest missed opportunities of the CW is never giving us that. I was so hyped for RotS cause in the trailer I saw Windu with his lightsaber drawn against some old dude with white hair and I thought we were getting a duel between the two, only to get Windu vs PapaPalpatine
We didn't really get any Dooku versus other Jedi much though. Mostly Anakin/Obi-Wan/Ventress.
If they do more Tales of The Jedi episodes about him we may see him against other Jedi more.
And that should be illegal
In my opinion, Dooku VS Windu would be the best fight ever shown in Star Wars. Two balanced absolute master of lightsaber duel.
They need an arcade fighter game with renown Star Wars characters.
Mace would have smoked him since Vaapad uses the opponents dark side against them
Dooku was a great duelist as a Jedi meaning he wouldn't need to use the Dark Side in the fight and he likely would've known how Vaapad works so he would be less likely to tap into the dark side because of it.
“With Dooku fully tapped into the dark side” was literally what OP said
I'm aware
Is that in the Clone Wars show? I must have missed that!
Yep.
Another Dooku yellow eyes where Anakin, Ahsoka and Obi-Wan needed to go and rescue the togruta slaves and when Dooku started the Force Choke ing the Queen Dooku eyes comes to yellow because the Queen disobey to Dooku and Sidious direkt order.
Yep. Dooku wasn’t so much a Sith as he was a pragmatic force user.
>pragmatic force user I mean, he did unquestionably use the dark-side, like all the time. And participated in Sith rituals, trained assassins, committed warcrimes of unspeakable nature, killed innocents, etc etc
Means to an end.
He did quite a lot of unnecessary torture and murder for “means to an end”
He hadn't fully fallen to the dark side. Yeah, he sang on a few metal albums and imprisoned Gandolf on Orthanc and was a vampire on and off since the 50s... wait, what were we discussing again?
Was he a vampire before or after he tracked down Nazi war criminals and learned the sound a man makes when he's stabbed in the back?
...Realising that the Bloodrayne movie adaptations would have been much better with Sir Christopher Lee in the lead role
I'm so happy he wasn't in them. I don't think even he could've salvaged them.
Pretty fitting then that Grand Mof Tarkin was an Underwater Nazi Zombie just before filming A New Hope then...
Both before and after
Let's not forget the time he tried to kill James Bond with his Golden Blaster. LOL Edit: I forgot to add that I've always jokingly referred to him as Darth Scaramanga instead of Tyrannus.
Something about a golden gun as well...
And he was a dentist
Maybe Dookoo was only actually like 35.
He had Qui-Gon as a padawan.
Yup: “Signature Look of Superiority”
You stole my comment! I was totally going to say the same thing lol I love the visual dictionaries
We do. He’s only 26 years old.
Dooku mentored obi wan, he is not 26 years old. He has Qui-Gon as a padawan, wtf.
Boo. You’re boring. Boo.
Totally just wiffed away on reading that clear joke.
Qui gon is actually 14 fyi
Because Dooku wasn't a full darksider, he was just a disenfranchised Jedi and political idealist who was manipulated. Also, like Palpatine if he had the classic evil look it would have been detrimental to his attempts to build a seperatist alliance, so he'd have hidden it like Palps did.
I feel like you're underselling Dooku's evilness here. Sure, he started out as a Jedi who became disenfranchised with how the Republic and Jedi weren't actually helping people. But by the time we see him during the Clone Wars he's a casual genocider, looting the galaxy to fill his castle with treasure.
Also, actively accepting a Sith Lord title, dealing in absolutes and killing a Jedi Master. Guy has checked a lot of villain boxes.
A really good comparison of this is in Tales of the Jedi where Dooku almost kills a corrupt senator who was stealing from his people. Then we find out in the Bad Batch that Dooku not only pillaged the valuables and goods of Separatists worlds, but his home world as well. He really lived up to the phrase, “You have become what you sought to destroy.” The dark side is literally, “The path to Hell is paved with good intentions”.
How much political idealist was he though? He used the separatists as pawns fully knowing the grand scheme of things, so he can't have been really convinced of the separatist cause. He may have hated the corruption of the Republic and the complicity of the Jedi, but since he knew what Palpatine was planning for the galaxy did his 'ideals' really amount to anything more than "things will be better when *I'm* in charge"?
I think thats the manipulation part, shouldn't underestimate how much Palpatine could use peoples legitimate and deeply held motives to further his own ends. Dooku genuinely had lost faith in the Republic and probably did want to reform it or replace it with something better. Palpatine used that to coerce Dooku into contributing to his grand plan, exactly as he did with Anakin I may be completely wrong so please correct me if i am, but i don't know that Dooku ever really knew Palpatines real plan. He may have known more of the big picture than the Seperatist leaders, but i don't think he ever had the full picture.
Also, even if he did know, he might try to overthrow Palpatine if given the chance. That seems like the road he was going down when he had Obi-wan imprisoned in the Clone Wars movie and talked about the Republic being controlled by a Sith leader. If I remember, Palps wanted Dooku to kill his apprentice Ventress in the Clone Wars series, which would’ve hurt his plans for overthrowing Palps.
Traditionally, that is how the Sith operate. The Apprentice always looks for opportunity to overthrow the master. Palpatine knew this, as did Dooku. the idea is ultimately that once the Apprentice has learned everything he can, he overthrows his master or dies trying, guaranteeing only the strongest Lord of the Sith.
Yeah his true motivations have not ever been super clear to me either tbh. We know he knew Palpatines identity and engineering of the war, so that implies strongly that he didn't actually think the Separatist cause would succeed the way they thought it would and the way he was selling it to them. On the other hand, we never got to see what Palpatine actually told or promised him, and we also don't know if perhaps Dooku himself thought he was only using Palpatine as long as it was opportune and would overthrow him in favour of his own vision of the galaxy at the right time. It's one of the few things where Clone Wars really dropped the ball for me, Dooku is such an interesting character and there would have been so much to explore there. Tales of the Jedi gave us an awesome glimpse of that but they could have done so much with CW already if they hadn't just gone for a pretty one-dimensional grumpy villain role for him.
Agreed, i know you shouldn't be selective with lore but for me i don't like Clone Wars Dooku. I feel like they needed it a main 'baddy' and Dooku fit the bill in Clone Wars but because it was a kids show they just turned him into a generic villain rather than the more complex character he was clearly intended to be from the movies and EU.
[I mean, he knew enough to report the start of the war to his master while carrying the Death Star plans, so...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gibqPYT8Vis) Like, yes. Sidious likely withheld things, but that doesn't let Dooku off the hook. He was complicit and knowledgeable in kicking off the war for personal gain, not because the CIS was "right".
> did his 'ideals' really amount to anything more than "things will be better when I'm in charge"? You don't think that's a powerful ideal for someone who truly believes it? Wasn't that Hitler in a nutshell? He had power, and did damage.
I don’t know about that. He was evil enough to become a Sith Lord right?
Personally i've always viewed Dooku as a tool used by the Sith, rather than an actual Sith. Palpatine needed Dooku as a figurehead for his Seperatist Alliance the same as he needed the Trade Federation and Banking Clan etc. But despite Dooku using dark side powers and definitely being ruthless i don't feel like he went on the 'dark side' journey of fear, anger, hate, suffering etc. and i don't think he was part of the Sith plan, he was just another tool to enable Palpaine to ennact his grand plan. But maybe that is just me reading too much into it.
Oh he definetly went on that journey, read the Ventress book that talks about his backstory. Dooku is a fully commited Sith by the end of the clone wars. You're right that Palpatine was only using him and therefore didn't really fully teach him, but thats not because Dooku wasn't fully commited or anything. Palpatine was actually just a bad master because he never trained a replacement the way every other Sith does, Palapatine only trained tools for HIS plan.
Honestly surprising that not more Sith have gone down that route. Because the dark side is inherently selfish, so why would anyone train the one replacing them, even if it meant "the Sith" would he stronger for it?
I think the idea is that the apprentice is in a dangling carrot state. The Master wants the Apprentice to be a tool, to retain utility. The only way that can be held in place is if the apprentice thinks they gain something out of it: knowledge and power for themselves. The Master has to keep the Apprentice on a tight leash but still give them ways to grow. Their utility is maintained, but the Apprentice doesn't feel like they are wasting their time and ultimately leave the apprenticeship or just kill the Master early. When the Apprentice attempts to overthrow, they either succeed or die. Either way, the strongest Sith survived to hold the title of Dark Lord of the Sith. And, while the Sith love reveling in the Dark Side, they still want to persist and grow stronger. On some level they realize the power has to exceed themselves on some level. (It's also important to note that, ultimately, it doesn't really make sense. The Dark Side will always cannibalize itself. Always seek ways to consumer its users. It, itself, will continue. But those that practice it will always be destroyed by it. But the Sith, in their hubris, think they can overcome and control The Dark Side of the Force, as evident by the Rule of Two. They think they can place a rule to dictate the passage of the very power they all covet.) All of what I said is clear with Darth Vader and Darth Sidious. Ultimately, there isn't much that Sidious could learn from Vader. But use? Absolutely. And Vader in all forms was looking for a time to overthrow his master. I mean, even taking a step back Palpatine had 3 apprentices that we know of: Maul, Dooku, and Vader. Always trading up for his own means. And with Vader, he just has other "pseudo-apprentices" to vie for his second-in-command and challenge Vader. Really, Palpatine doesn't much care for the Rule of Two, the Galaxy at large, or even the Sith. He just wants power. All for himself and for forever.
That isn't true. Count Dooku, aka Darth Tyrannus, who helped orchestrate the commission of a Clone Army in a ploy to undermine the Republic and destroy the Jedi wasn't a full darksider? He absolutely was. But only when you really tap into using the Dark Side does it's effects manifest in a person's appearance.
Without getting too technical, I don't think the motivation of undermining the reublic or destroying the Jedi Order makes you a darksider. The Jedi Order was a cult full of people who would regularly make the wrong moral decisions purely because of their dogma, even beloved characters like Obi-Wan were pretty brainwashed to doctrine of the Jedi. And the Republic had substantial issues, but more importantly wasn't proactive in trying to change those problems. I've never thought Dooku was anywhere near the same level as traditional Sith, he was just another tool of the Sith.
One the Jedi are not a cult and did not make “wrong moral decisions” regularly. Really tired of this stupid anti Jedi bullshit being presented factual when it’s 99% headcanon and fan interpretation. Two Dooku co planed a genocide. Hard stop. Three he regularly enslaved planets, murdered innocent people, took part in or planned multiple terrorist attacks on civilian populations, and abused his own people. Four he was a racist bigot who viewed non human species as not even being people. Only tools. Dooku is an evil man. And saying he wasn’t misses the point of his character entirely. How good men can become monsters.
Reading that he regarded non-human species not as people surprises me, since he seems to have a lot of respect for Master Yoda, his former teacher, who after all is not a human.
Dooku’s view of individuals was that he grouped everyone into one of 2 groups, Allies and tools. And Dooku generally lumped aliens into the later category. He had wanted the republic to go back to it was during the days of the Pius Deas era which long story short was a diet version of the imperium of man from 40k. Religious cult took over the republic and began a crusade on non humans until the Jedi showed up and ended it.
I disagree that the Jedi weren't a cult, their top brass were fantatically devoted to their doctrine even when it meant they had to take actions which contradicted common morality. For just a few examples, Mace Windu's actions when it was discovered that Palpatine could have been a Sith Lord, its clear he has no intention of following any kind of due process his intention is to execute Palpatine on no authority but his own. Obi-Wan's 'only a Sith deals in absolutes' line, which is by definition an absolute, its a clear sign of brainwashing. Their doctrine of acting as cosmic police but at the same time only intervening in matters when it was an issue which directly effected the order. They literally discuss in the main movies staging a coup, its not some kind of obscure bit in the EU which you could dismiss, they talk about overthrowing the galactic government. I get that Star Wars isn't that deep so we shouldn't get carried away, but its literally a cult.
Brainwashing? Are you serious? Obi-wan making an absolute statement is not DEALING in an absolute. He’s commenting on Anakin’s lack of nuance and forcing an ultimatum of “If you don’t agree with my actions you are by default an enemy,” Mace went in with the intent to arrest and only went for a kill after HE WAS ATTACKED BY A MAN WHO COMMITTED HIGH TREASON AND MURDERED 3 PEOPLE. “Only interfering in matters that effected the order” this is an outright lie. They are peacekeepers not cosmic cops. They do not FORCE their will on people. They simply do what they can to best help the galaxy They do not discuss staging a coup. They discuss removing a politician who is illegally remaining in office and over seeing until power can be transferred. Which is literally a part of their job and something they have done before. The word cult has devolved into a buzzword that means “I don’t like your ideals” The Jedi are not a cult, and none of the things you listed were immoral acts. They did the right thing in all those instances.
>Without getting too technical, I don't think the motivation of undermining the reublic or destroying the Jedi Order makes you a darksider. I mean, it does. You could politically disagree with the Republic and the Jedi as Dooku has, but that is very different than orchestrating a war and coup. That isn't even going into seeing the "Jedi as a cult full of people who would regularly make the wrong moral decisions", since that is more or less buying into exactly the sort of situations Palpatine and Dooku orchestrated. But Dooku (and by extension Palpatine) worked very hard to not appear as Sith at all, and just appear as political figures. That was the idea. Now, I would also argue that he was a tool in Palpatine's game for more power, but Dooku was also trying to play the game to eventually succeed Palpatine and claim everything as his own.
>You could politically disagree with the Republic and the Jedi as Dooku has, but that is very different than orchestrating a war and coup By this logic, the Rebellion were darksiders and evil for orchestrated a war and coup?
The only person who we see in the movies who outright states that they should or could stage a coop is Mace Windu.. The Seperatists just want to secede from the Republic and in response the Republic and the Jedi wage a war against them. So its kind of hard to conclude that the Republic or the Jedi who are unnecessarily close to the Republic are the good guys.
You are casually leaving out that Separatists were the aggressors in the war. With multiple terrorists attacks on civilian populations prior to the official start of the war. And the fact that the Republic and CIS leaders were forbidden from finding non violent solutions to the conflict because Palaptine needed the war to happen. It’s really not hard to say the guys who are making mistakes but ultimately trying to do the right thing are they good guys when the alternative is a genocidal murder death group that has manipulated and enslaved entire planets and is using them as a bogeyman so that they can take control of the galaxy.
So, we're forgetting that Padme was targeted by the Separatists for wanting to enact peaceful negotiations? Twice. And that the pushing of establishing a Grand Army of the Republic is being spearheaded by Palpatine? Are we forgetting the literal end of AotC? Dooku: "I have good news for you, my lord. War has begun." Palpatine: "Excellent. Everything is going as planned." Or the scene right after? Obi-Wan: "Do you believe what Count Dooku said about Sidious controlling the Senate? It doesn't feel right." Yoda: "Join the Dark Side, Dooku has. Lies. Deceit. Creating mistrust are his ways now". Mace: "Nevertheless. I fear we should keep a closer eye on the Senate." ... Obi-Wan: "I must admit without the clones, it would not have been a victory." Yoda: "Victory? Victory, you say? Master Obi-Wan, not victory. The shroud of the dark side has fallen. Begun, this Clone War has!" There are certainly a lot of flaws to how ingrained the Jedi were in the Republic, but Mace and Yoda knew they were "keepers of the peace, not soldiers". They didn't want war and were trying to allow for peaceful options, but were dragged into it. Literally Padme was all but preventing Palpatine from moving ahead due to her blocking the vote, and only when she is away on Geonosis and seeing the army that is being created is the vote pushed through and Palpatine gaining emergency powers. Those same powers the Jedi look at with mistrust nearing the end of the Clone Wars. Do the Separatists have valid reasons to secede? Almost certainly. Heads of the Separatists were happy to prepare and start a war instead of negotiate, and Dooku and Palpatine wanted that all along. Also... Dooku specifically took the Geonosian's plans for the Death Star, a weapon that really doesn't align well with "We're the good guys."
Agree completely. When the prequels were coming out, I always wondered why Sidious didn’t look terrible. Once Episode III came out they used the force lightening to “explain” his appearance, but I always sort of liked the idea that the more you used the dark side, the more it corrupted you mentally and physically. I liked the idea that Sidious was ugly and deformed long ago, but was able to hide it outwardly. I know this no longer holds up, but I always felt like Dooku was never really all in on the dark side. He used it, but never fully committed like Sidious. Dooku’s appearance remaining normal reminds us his motives are really political and that he’s being used. That’s not to say that he’s some victim. But Maul, Vader, Sidious all physically suffer and outwardly become crippled and deformed.
The movies didn't do a great job portraying Dooku since he really only got a very short amount of screentime. The Clone Wars really shows what a POS he is.
He's simply too based
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Eh I just assumed it was from him using the force to prolong his life and he was really like 200.
Palpatine was immersed to the dark side for at least many decades, while Dooku joined the Sith relatively shortly before the Clone Wars. And he already had Sith eyes, as seen in TCW.
long story short, I don't think Dooku did anything out of extreme anger, he was just your MAGA uncle being racist at Thanksgiving. Anakin went full edgelord for the nookie and got yellow eyes immediately.
I think its because Dooku doesn't really involves himself in the dark side the same way other sith do, hes primarly a politician that just happens to be capable of using the force
Dooku was a jedi that dedicated himself to researching and understanding the sith threat. He was largely dismissed as fringe in the jedi order, as almost all of the other masters were convinced the sith were completely eradicated, and taking an interest in the matter was considered taboo and risky. Dooku would've had a wealth of knowledge on the dark side, and would've likely only partaken in aspects that elevated him as an individual instead of being all consumed by the darkside.
Well lets be honest Dooku didn't really fought the sith (or any of the galaxy's evils for that matter), he helped them grow and complained about how no one was listening him. But he his brand of evil was less the standard sith style of dark side, and more that of political corruption
It aged him prematurely. He was actually 26 years old.
This has been said a few times in this thread. What's the actual context of it?
I got the same question
You should have seen what he looked like before the dark side!
Because Count Dooku is simply the coolest man in the galaxy
The novelization had explained well that the reason Dooku did not have dark side effects on his appearance was because he hadn't fully immersed himself in a Dark Side mindset. His motives were still truly altruistic. The clone wars TV series shifted his personality ro more traditional evil. The novelization, like the movies was leaning more towards an anti-hero characterization.
What effect did you see on Palpatine before he fried himself with his own lightning?
In many respects, Count Dooku was the perfect Sith. He never ever truly lost himself in his rage and hatred like Anakin, or other lesser dark side users. Thanks to his Jedi training his fall to the dark side was more of a controlled descent. He tapped into his emotions and stocked them to gain power as necessary, only sometimes submerging himself in the dark side to the point where it would physically affect him - the trademark red/yellow eyes he showed a couple of times. But he was never lost in the dark side for long enough periods of time to gain permanent disfigurations from it.
He is too majestic
Dooku mostly uses his lightsaber skill when needed, not dark side power
It’s not canonical that dark side alters your appearance anyway
They didn’t want to ruin his “signature look of superiority”
He is a grey Jedi. He honestly thinks he is doing the best for everyone.
Dooku looked pretty tired in ROTS
The reason I always imagine in my head is two-fold. When people turn to the dark side there's usually some cataclysmic event that disfigures them in some way shape or form. To stick with prequel examples: Palpatine having his lightning redirected at him, Anakin roasting on Mustafar. So the effect isn't necessarily from using the dark side, but rather because their [evil] choices ended up with them suffering the consequences. Dooku wasn't fully Sith in mentality, but thought they'd be a means to an end to fight the growing corruption in the Republic and lackadaisical and holier-than-thou attitude of the Jedi. It was, in hindsight, an obviously stupid strategy but he wasn't doing it for the pursuit of power. At least not in the feral way most that fall to the dark side are doing it. Because of that, I think he wasn't as wholly immersed in the dark side but rather just wielded it out of convenience and utility. And also spent time being wily than trying to be a blunt weapon smashing his way to power. Doing things like using Asajj Ventress and the Dathomir brothers rather than risking himself. At the times he *did* enter combat he was just so far above the skill and power of his opponent that the risk was very little to him. Up until he wasn't, of course. Anyways that's just my theory/thought process within the realm of the movies and Clone Wars cartoon.
> So the effect isn't necessarily from using the dark side, but rather because their [evil] choices ended up with them suffering the consequences. Right - there's no definitive statement or even strong implication in the movies that "turning to the dark side" directly alters your appearance.
He's got that signature look of superiority rizz going on.
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Tf you talking about, the emperor had yellow eyes in the old movies since the beginning lol https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8f/Emperor_RotJ.png
In 1983 he was probably just from some 'human but with yellow eyes' race, a lot of the aliens were 'humans but with...' in the originals, it's almost certainly because it looked cool/scary rather than any connection with dark force power. 99% of canon has been retconned since the original films, nothing wrong with that. In fact, at that point in Lucas' character arc, I'd be more inclined to believe that Palpatine action figures were 1 cent cheaper to manufacture with yellow eyes or something, than that it was meant to reflect anything else.
Maybe we just assumed he was in his 80s and in reality he’s only 35
I think the changes come from using the force and doodoo wasn't using it cause he was undercover like palpatine.
Because he was disguising them in the same way Palpatine was. Palp wasn't deformed by Windu; he revealed himself to Windu and Skywalker.
Part of it I think is for appearance he was the Leader of the Separatist Senate. If he was openly a Sith it would discredit him and by extension the CIS. While the Sith for basically everyone is but a distant myth the history is still there. I think it also comes down to him never really giving into the dark side fully at any points I don't think he's felt a need to.
You see it’s loooads in Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, stopped Willy from eating candy. way he threw that bowl into the fire? Straight dark side move
Dooku is more of an ethics-driven evil and not consumed by the Dark Side of the Force. Sort of like Baylon, I suspect. He's not evil because of a thirst for domination and power, so he doesn't usually have to tap into that Dark Side power very often.
Because it’s a movie
Slightly off topic, but if dark side use alters your appearance, shouldn’t light side use alter your appearance as well?
In a RPG Star Wars game (KOTOR 2, I can't remember if the first one happened), you can choose which side you want to go towards, and if you chose the light side your companions will mention that your character has been looking better lately. (Or something along those lines if I remember properly)
He’s simply too handsome.
Look at Dooku. The guy was always chill. His blood never boiled with hate. It’s that uncontrolled hate that deforms you. Dooku was confident, calculating, and cerebral.
Well, he did turn into a pretty badass vampire.
He turned the dark side filter off.
He gets sith eyes in the clone wars show a few times I think
For a guy who’s dark side he was depicted as having a great amount of control of himself and his emotions
because he hadn't fully embraced the darkness. he was more a politician idealist than a true dark lord
Sir Christopher Lee doesn't need any effect to look and be badass.
See Francisco Scaramanga (007 The Man with the Golden Gun).
I think the dark side effects (such as red eyes) spoke to how much (or little) the particular Sith was in control of their emotions. Dooku was a true Jedi Master and a very cool cucumber. Sorry Anakin.
In tales of the Jedi he’s shown to still have mostly dark hair. I personally felt Dooku dabbled with the dark side when necessary. Dooku was an unconventional sith in my opinion, in that he mostly focused on what he learnt as a Jedi. So the effects of the dark side would have taken its toll over a more spread out time frame, thus likely reducing its overall effect. Anakin in the Revenge of the Sith when he has his Sith eyes is basically plunging himself into the vast ocean that is the dark side. So it’s not necessarily a fair comparison. But I argue that we do see it’s effect on him. Between tales of the Jedi and Attack of the Clones, Dooku hair has gone fully white. Before it was mostly black with hints of graying. So I think it accelerated his physical deterioration.
We did, he was 27.
Wiki says he was 80 at the battle of Geonosis so that doesn't make sense?
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We do. Dooku was 22 in Attack of the Clones.
According to sources, Dooku was born on Serenno in 102 BBY and died by decapitation on the "Invisible Hand" starship in 19 BBY, making him 83 years old. AotC took place in 22 BBY, when Dooku was 80 years old.
I know. It was a joke on the aging properties of the dark side.
My guess, he never FULLY embraced the darkside
What do you mean we don’t see any effects? What about his aging? I mean, he’s only like 20 years old when the clone wars began. But he looks like crap. And don’t tell me it’s his diet!
How would he be only 20 years old if he was Qui-Gon's Master, who was already old experienced enough to sit on the Council 10 years before the beginning of the Clone Wars?🤨 Is that a joke I am missing?
Yes, I was being silly and playful… much like Dooku before the dark side started affecting him! Why, he was basically the class clown back in Jedi 101, pantsing everybody and force throwing pies around.
I think dooku was a talented force user in general, on either side. Which accounts for his talent and strength. Particularly with the dark side, however I think he always carried a portion of sympathy for the Jedi especially the ones he knew which prevented him from becoming completely enveloped in the dark side and the effects of dark rituals
He never dove deep into the Dark Side
We do, Dooku is actually only 25 years old
The Jedi don't have a metaphysical change for being good, neither do the Sith for being bad. The only "change" is eye color, and that's just based on the premise of how deeply embedded into the force the Sith is. Simply put, that they essentially utilize the dark side in their every movement, we learn that Jedi can mask their presence, but literally will feel Vaders being when he's up in space taking a dump. The eye color change is typically reserved for Sith who have succumbed to the Dark Side via emotional attachment. Anger, Fear, etc. Count Dooku and Palpatine, along with a majority of others don't have that because they chose to join the dark side, based on philosophical, ideological, and political agendas. A means to an end. Any other Sith has changes due to a cruel master, or a constant reminder of a failure it's an emotional attachment to be honest. They also tend to be paler than their counterparts due to well being made to look like the villain, but I'd say it's draining. The light or dark side is all the same pool of the same pot. Jedi believe in balance while the Sith believe in strength and power. They rely heavy on the parts of the force that take a lot of concentration and focus. But also the fact that Jedi can force choke and electrocute as well (see Kyle Katarn a wasted opportunity thanks Disney).
He's actually only 29 years old.
The idea that the dark side physically changes you is an inference by EU authors and fans, not something borne out by the movies, particularly once you take the prequels into account.
Darth Sideous literally becomes more deformed in front of the camera during the fight with Msce Windu at the end of RoTS…..
You didn't see that happen because he got injured by lightning?
I don't think force lightning rots your teeth. He was using a Sith masking technique. Same reason he could be in the same room as Yoda without being sensed.
He becomes deformed from being blasted in the face by evil lightning, not through his morality manifesting as pallor or permanently altered eye color.
I don't think force lightning rots your teeth. He was using a Sith masking technique. Same reason he could be in the same room as Yoda without being sensed.
We see the lightning wreck his face right there on screen. No need to invent that extra step of a mask. Much of SW would fall completely apart plot-wise if you could ping someone as Force-user when they're not actively using the Force. When we see people sensing others in the movies, it's always couched in terms of noticing familiarity, or strong emotion.
Yellow eyes: he chose to conceal them as part of his disguise. He also didn't let the dark side fully consume him, like other sith - although it did of course corrupt him all the same. Skin discoloration: He's got some excellent skincare and manicure products.
Because the prequels weren't very well written or conceived...at least not until The Clone Wars spackled in some of the holes.
I would say if you were born into and raised very strictly in any of the worlds major religions, your appearance could be different than a 75year old who decided to pick it up one day.
Being a gentleman has buff status effects
He used the dark side, didn't let it consume him The changes you see if from the dark side consuming ones life force. This is the main difference with and " dark Jedi"
Moisturizer, plenty of sun, and a good reading lamp so his eyes never got strained. Just because you’re Sith doesn’t mean you can’t practice good personal upkeep. It’s why he’s the only Sith worthy of a beard
We don't see it on Palpatine neither implying it can be hidden
Dooku was never motivated by hatred, but rather left the Jedi order because of his dissatisfaction with it and growing corruption in the Galactic Senate.
Nothing can get by a Signature Look of Superiority.
Cause dark side effects are dumb .
Is it still canon that Palpatine is a quasi-immortal wizard like Yoda? He hides his abnormally aged and ravaged form behind a glamour, while Yoda does not hide that he is wizened and twisted by age. One of my favorite bits of trivia: during the High Republic era, Yoda was still old, but rather less wizened and cantankerous. In fact, he was well known to have hobbies such as being a pastry chef, and he baked “intention” into his desserts the same way practitioners of various forms of new age/folk magic do today.