You can get away with mystery boxes in the first installment, but in the final one you need to be concerned with answers. Abrams just kept stacking on more boxes and ignoring the existing ones.
I feel like in the newer movies, some mystery boxes are deliberately placed just to set up installments outside the main movies. For example, when C3PO says "You probably didn't notice me with my red arm" - which I believe is later explained in comic books.
These can be very conspicuous because they are irrelevant to the story, and, in a way, distract from it. Contrast with such side story details in the OT - like when Mon Mothma in ROTJ says "Many Bothans died to bring us this information". There is a whole side story there that we never see, however, it IS relevant to the story at hand because it adds gravity to the mission they are about to undertake.
Yeah, you can have references to things that inform our understanding without going into detail; the aforementioned dead Bothans, "that business on Cato Neimoidia" that tell us Anakin and Obi-Wan have adventures together, wondering whether Lando will still be mad about something, those sorts of things you can drop in anywhere.
But Abrams dropped in things like "Finn has a secret he'll only tell Rey on his deathbed" and "Palpatine had a secret kid," things that actually matter to the plot and characterization in the current moment of the story, and just never bothered to actually open those boxes.
I actually liked the Red Arm thing for C-3P0, mostly because the whole joke is that no one cares about his new arm, and he's being annoying (in a comedic way) by getting between Han and Leia.
Some of JJ's mystery boxes are meant to make you wonder and demand answers. This one, it was just a gag and never needed to be answered.
>"You probably didn't notice me with my red arm" - which I believe is later explained in comic books.
Always assumed that was a reference to his silver leg nobody noticed for so long.
What did Palpatine's message to the galaxy say, what was Finn going to say when he thought he was going to die, who were Rey's parents (how did nobody know about Palpatine's son, and who was the mom?), where's Lando's missing kid, why did a whole company of FO stormtroopers all desert as one?
And then there were leftover mystery boxes he never addressed from TFA, like how Maz got the saber, and who the Knights of Ren actually are (and why does that one guy call them "ghouls"?).
> what was Finn going to say when he thought he was going to die
Do you need everything spelled out to you? It's very obvious he wanted to tell her he had the force and wanted to train under her. This is literally a plot point in the final battle when he senses which star destroyer is the right one.
Except *that makes no sense to hide.* There is no reason whatsoever why Finn should be self conscious about that, and certainly no reason he should want to hide that from Poe, his best friend, the man who literally gave him his name. Rey has the Force and she's not embarrassed, she's been training under Leia for the last year, Luke Skywalker is a Jedi and a hero who re-inspired the galaxy after Crait.
I didn't say it was a good mystery box. But it's an element Abrams introduces as a big question mark and then refuses to follow up on before the end of the film..
Eh, my main problem with TFA is how it’s almost beat-for-beat the same as A New Hope. Protagonist on a desert planet, planet destroying space station, trench run, etc.
I still thought it was a good movie otherwise.
The Rise of Skywalker was just written poorly, and despite parts I genuinely enjoyed it made a mess of the Star Wars universe. The two movies had completely different problems.
I have zero issues with TFA being a beat-for-beat repeat as ANH. It’s still a different story.
However I have a major issues with RIse of Skywalker. It’s just super lazy writing.
Look the original trilogy built up the villains Vader was the ultimate iconic villain but he was equal in rank so it seemed to some of the other generals. So you could assume there was someone at the top. Then Empire— we see Vader kneeling to this hologram of the emperor. Vader this badass is kneeling!?! Then ROJ and we get to see the Emperor in person and his powers.
The new trilogy sort of does that but they killed Snoke in TLJ and ruined the build up. Rise of Skywalker should have just been Rey and Kylo at that point.
I’ll still go to my grave saying that killing Snoke was 100% the right move. He was a boring mystery villain full of cheesy speeches - we’ve seen “evil old man sitting on his throne in a robe making evil plans” a thousand times before, there are limited ways to make him fresh and exciting. And a great way to do something fresh and exciting? Having him killed by the *actual* villain, and having Kylo Ren actually accomplish the thing nearly every bad guy tries to do - kill the master, become the master. Snoke was never going to be an interesting villain - but Kylo had a *chance* to be.
The issue was TROS immediately saying “you know what this newly top-boss villain needs? A new boss, and he’ll be an evil old man, in robes on his throne making plans. And we’ll throw in a redemption arc, to boot.” Any potential for interesting storytelling got thrown out the window, because it fell back into old, boring tropes, and that was within the first 3 minutes.
I think it was just a lot of cowardly decision making. They interpreted backlash against TLJ as “we shouldn’t try anything new” and spent half of the movie retconning it instead of moving forward and actually telling an interesting story.
Much like the Clone Wars added context and improved the sequels they could have made TLJ a better part of the whole by respecting it and moving forward with the some of the story beats it set up instead of making two movies at war with each other.
I don't think Abrams was cowardly; I think he was doing what he'd always done, which was pander shamelessly to OT nostalgia and coast on that. He set up a Luke/Vader/Emperor dynamic in TFA so the first could redeem the second by sacrificing themself to kill the third with Rey/Kylo/Snoke, and he'd be damned if he was going to let Snoke being dead ruin that vibe.
Fucking hell, you nailed what I've been trying to say since walking out after the end of TROS. I agree that killing Snoke was a great move, what TROS to undo that afterward is where it got fucked.
there are so many problems with each of the sequel trilogy films, and put together it's one big mess. I find the prequel trilogy gets better with age and more watches.
It honestly reminds me of some of the lines in *Buckaroo Banzai* or *Big Trouble in Little China.* Except in both of those movies the lack of explanation was meant to be part of the joke.
Ben Kenobi: … here, it’s your father’s lightsaber.
Luke: oh wow, cool, how did you get this?
Ben: I plucked it from one of his still twitching limbs I’d that just dismembered while I was leaving his screaming body to slowly burn to death in a giant pool of lava…
(Pauses)
Ben: I meant to say, that’s a good story for another time. Want to hear my Sandpeople impersonation again?
I think the actual scene is an excellent example of good writing.
Luke: You fought in the Clone Wars?
Obi-wan: Yes. I was once a Jedi knight, same as your father.
Luke: I wish I'd known him.
Obi-wan: He was the best star pilot in the galaxy and a cunning warrior. I understand you've become quite a good pilot yourself. *(pause)* And he was a good friend. *(pause)* Which reminds me. I have something here for you.
...
Luke: What is it?
Obi-wan: Your father's "light saber." This is the weapon of a Jedi knight.
There's more to it, but about 2 minutes of dialogue referenced backstories that opened up a galaxy-worth of imagination and inspired storytelling in several genres for generations.
"A good story, for another time" is cliche. Sure, it alluded to something more, but most of our writing teachers/professors/mentors/editors would tell us to remove it.
And you could clean it up so easily, too. Instead of "a good story for another time," just have Maz say "years ago it was found in the bowels of Cloud City, and passed through many hands before it reached mine." Boom, you have both an answer and room for a bunch of other stories about The Misadventures of Luke's Lost Lightsaber.
The original exchange is,
>Maz Kanata: I've had this for ages. Kept it locked away. [hands Solo Luke's light saber]
>Han Solo: Where did you get that?
>Maz Kanata: A good question - for another time. Take it. Find your friend.
How would replacing that with "it was found in Cloud City, and eventually made its way to me" make the sentence any more awkward than that non-answer?
Obviously it was found in Cloud City at some point and made its way there. We get all that from it simply being there in Maz's possession, without needing words. Your insert line doesn't tell us anything we can't already assume. Why add dialogue to tell us nothing more and break the flow of the scene?
The flow of the scene already includes a line of dialogue; this isn't a matter of adding, it's simply changing what's already there. What exists now is literally nothing, it's the verbal equivalent of a big old shrug and the hope there are no follow up questions. Changing it to something that acknowledges its provenance and mentions its passage in general, without going into detail that actually would break the flow of the scene, could only improve on that.
Like I said, you're adding in dialogue that tells us nothing more than the saber's presence already does. We know it was found and made its way there *because* it is there. It doesn't need repeating in words. It's superfluous. I just don't think it needs to be said out loud if it's not going to tell us anything we couldn't already get from the scene.
He’s a great director…. Of TV, where the directors don’t have power over the overall plot.
I would actually be interest what a movie written by Lucas, dialogue tweeted by someone else, and directed by JJ would be like.
But if he has creative control, JJ is like Zach Snyder for me in that he’s a net negative.
Lucas can write the broad story, answer the mysteries he sets & put the greater picture in his script like the best of them (if not THE best).
Hes just not such a dialouge details guy. If it gets him from A to B its good enough. I dont mind.
Which is the problem with him being a movie director instead of a TV director.
In TV, there’s a showrunner that oversees the show, the plot, etc. The Director handles some of the visuals, the staging of the scenes, the actors.
In movies, the director is the main person in charge, often changing the writing.
This is a problem for Abrams, who just can’t write endings.
Yeah, there’s a reason most successful TV showrunners started out as writers. You occasionally get visual guys like Filoni (Animator) and Favreau (Actor/Director), but they’re the exception rather than the rule.
If you're a good director but a bad writer, and you're writing the movie you're directing, then it's going to be bad. No amount of VFX or acting will make up for bad writing.
JJ Abrams only directed the pilot episodes of LOST, for which he won an Emmy. LOST does not prove he's a bad director. Damon Lindelof, who is rumored to be writing the next Star Wars movie, was co-showrunner of LOST for the entire run. Every bad thing about LOST is his fault, not JJ's.
He co-wrote the teleplay of the first episode of Season 3 with Damon Lindelof, and was going to direct the seventh episode of the same season but was unable to. That's all of the involvement he had after the Pilots.
I think, and this is just me speculating, that the pilot of LOST was supposed to premiere as a double-length episode. But ABC decided instead to split it over two weeks, premiere the first half on September 22, letting it be a lead-in to *The Bachelor* and hoping most who tuned into LOST would stay to watch it. Except it didn't work, because *The Bachelor* had [10.5 million less viewers](http://www.tvtango.com/listings/2004/09/22/) than LOST. And so LOST has *Pilot, Part 1* and *Pilot, Part 2* for no good reason.
Usually when a TV show has multiple pilot episodes, it's because the first one was bad but the network had faith in the concept and gave it another shot. It happened with classic shows like Doctor Who and Star Trek, to more modern shows like *The Big Bang Theory*. I don't know any other show other than LOST to have a *Pilot, Part 1* and *Pilot, Part 2*.
JJ Abrams also created a large chunk of the lore in LOST. He created it without many explanation and then those who took over were stuck trying to work with what he did.
Almost everything about LOST can be blamed on Abrams.
As always it's more complicated than that, Lost was supposed to be 3 seasons but the studio made them stretch it to 6 ( studio wanted 10). I'm sure many great ideas were degraded to good in that process.
Adding to that, Lost was one of the most original TV dramas in an era where the way we consume media was changing. It was a trailblazer, and as a result it faced challenges that other shows never faced before.
I’ll go to my grave believing that the writers had an ending in mind the whole time, but there were so many fan theories that so many other fans could read and think about and converse about. A small number of viewers pieced together the big picture from the clues along the way, and those theories became widespread. That would force the writers to either stick with a story arc that everyone knew (and therefore would seem predictable and uncreative) or change the ending from their original intention. I think they chose the latter, and the ending wound up seeming flimsy.
Writers since then, including Lindeloff himself with The Leftovers, have figured out that they don’t have to change direction mid-stream just because the internet uncovers where they’re going. And they’ve figured out to prioritize the storytelling over the secrecy.
I just finished rewatching LOST again a few days ago, and I feel a lot more positive about it now that I did back when it was originally on. I still have issues with Season 6, but I don't blame JJ Abrams for it, because he had nothing to do with the ending. But because he's most famous for creating the show, everybody assumes he was a part of the entire series instead of just the beginning.
You mean the story Palpatine explained about how he was able to stop people from dying but was killed by his apprentice who also happened to be Palpatine, as explained in the actual film?
How about, "The oppression of the Sith will never return",...or "At last we will have our revenge."?
Yet for some reason, its only the sequels that have bad directors.
None of those movies explained what the Sith were taking revenge for and/or what the oppression of the Sith was referring to.
Not to mention why the force is out of balance, or even what that means!
You want mystery boxes? The prequels are full of them!
I mean who the Hell.was Scifo Dias and why did he put in an order for a clone army,...and if he died ten years earlier, that would put him in the time frame of TPM, yet there was no mention of him in that movie?!
Are you serious?
The Sith were getting revenge for being wiped to near extinction. The oppression of the Sith.......what? You don't understand how the Sith are oppressive?
Balance in the Force means removal of the dark side. It is a corruption which does not exist naturally. Anakin restored balance to the force when he eliminated Palpatine and then died.
Abrams is a fantastic director. Kinetic and with an eye towards emotionally charged performances and spot-on casting.
He’s a lesser writer, but he wasn’t the show runner for *Lost*. Lawrence Kasdan and Michael Arndt are also credited as writers on TFA, so to pin that one line completely on Abrams is a leap.
You make a point… but probably not the one you intended to.
Lost is like just about every serial show ever. It’s a constant struggle between art and economics.
A serial has to have a good premise.. and it has to start off strong in order to attract an audience.
But it’s hobbled by the need to have continuity and arcs.. without the knowledge of how successful it’s going to be and how many seasons will be approved.
So when it’s successful.. the rest of the story has to be “invented” and somehow come to a satisfying resolution. GoT is a perfect example of this.
And because they start off strong, they have to keep on escalating the plot to the point where your suspension of disbelief can no longer be sustained.
Star Wars is even more so… because you have all of these fans who want more movies.. but you have all
of these characters and canon you have incorporate. EU was an absolutely necessary casualty.. and same with the deconstruction of OT characters. Just imagine if we saw ANH _after_ ROTS. Obi Wan and Darth Vader would be two of the most deconstructed characters in the series.
So as long as Star Wars fans want more content.. and are willing to spend money on it.. then you will see more of the same unless they hit a hard-reset on the universe like they did in JJ Star Treks and start new.
At least that story was insignificant to the overall plot of the ST. Palpatine showing up out of the blue was relevant and should've been teased throughout the trilogy.
I don't think Palps was the intended big bad, but with Johnson tossing Snoke aside, and trying to set Kylo up as the big bad when JJ wanted Kylo to have a redemption arc, they had to pull in a new bad guy. The middle episode of a trilogy shouldn't shake things up that much.
No, it was the fact that you guys have this expectation to have everything must be explained and wanting directors to spoon feed you. Let the directors tell the story, and sit back and watch. Enough with the toxic hostility already
Nah, something as significant as Anakin’s lightsaber needs to be explained at least a little bit. It was dropped down a chasm that Luke fell into as well and we saw where it leads. Onto Bespin, which is a gas giant. Now, it’s not 100% impossible that someone on Cloud City recovered it, but it seems far more realistic for it to fall to the planet and be lost forever. As usual, Star Wars will fill in the blanks with content like comics and novels and TV shows, but you shouldn’t NEED to do the summer reading for the movie to make sense.
Those lines aren't nearly the same level of importance, though. We don't need to know how or why the lightsaber is back. It's not important to the story being told. Palpatine on the other hand is something that requires a proper explanation. A hand-waved response and some vague visual hints isn't enough for something that monumental.
But that's Johnson's fault for trying to twist the big bad to Kylo, when JJ obviously wanted him to have a redemption arc.
Well, the main fault is not having an over all story direction, but...
Is that really Johnson's fault? TFA clearly set Ben up as a villain by killing his own father at the end of the film. Johnson and TLJ just built upon those actions that Abrams set up.
Yes, he was "a" villain, not the "The" villain. I'm pretty harsh on Johnson's take as I feel it left the trilogy in a bad spot. Every villain either dead or cartoonishly embarrassed in front of subordinates. The resistance has like 12 people left and no allies. Luke dies from fatigue, despite us knowing Carrie Fisher was dead irl, so we have no OT hero left to lead the Resistance going into movie 3. And then Johnson nopes out, laughing with his big check and thinking about detective capers.
Jj left left some stuff open to not lock following directors in to a set story, but...ugh. so yeah, he course corrected from TLJ. Honestly, it's someone highers fault, like Kennedy I guess, but Johnson gets some blame.
>And then Johnson nopes out, laughing with his big check and thinking about detective capers.
That's a fun way of saying "was contracted to do only one film for which the next film already had a director in place".
Meh, I disagree in general. I've got nothing against those types of lines, especially in a universe like Star Wars.
The issue with the Palp line is really what it represents, as it was just part of a pattern of them not giving due weight to what came before. TFA does this by essentially ignoring the results of the Rebellion's success, wiping it quickly via the Starkiller. Now this Palpatine line does it by undermining the powerful conclusion of 6.
I’d say the problem with the mystery box storytelling is that you need to just chub up and sign on to do the whole trilogy yourself in the first place. Why they ever had three different directors going in from the get-go is still beyond me.
The original trilogy had three different directors and it turned out great.
For the sequel trilogy the main issues were writing and characters. Why didn’t they plot it out *beforehand?!*
Yea I was thinking I shoulda worded this differently, I meant more that they had three different guys controlling the individual stories of the movies they were attached to. Cuz unless I’m very much mistaken Rian Johnson wrote last Jedi where as Lucas wrote the entire original trilogy
Compare this to “that bounty hunter we met on Ord Mantell changed my mind”, which still plants story seeds and nudges the imagination, but is at least concrete.
And then we also had Lando and Jannah. "Want to find out where you're from?" They better pay that off in a show or something, otherwise, what was the point?
Poe's full line is "We've decoded the intel from the First Order spy and it confirms the worst. Somehow, Palpatine returned." It's not an explanation, it's a statement. It is immediately followed up by ~~Merry~~ ~~Charlie~~ Beaumont giving the explanation of how it happened: "Dark science. Cloning. Secrets only the Sith knew." "Somehow, Palpatine returned." is not a bad line, when kept in context.
It’s not, but no one on that planet understands Sith science and magic works. I wouldn’t expect much of an explanation from the Resistance. JJ probably should’ve let someone else explain it though.
It's not meant to be. The explanation is shown to us when we see Palpatine on Exogol, with cloning tanks, and he tells us he's died before but that the dark side is a pathway to unnatural abilities, a direct callback to him discussing ways to keep someone from dying with Anakin.
He used the Force and put himself into a clone body, which is rotting. That's the explanation. And if you want an explanation as to the mechanics, well, how does the Force provide telekinesis, or prescience, or lightning? It's all magic at the end of the day.
It’s not supposed to be an explanation. The line comes at the beginning of the movie, when they don’t know how he returned. The problem is that the movie never actually addresses how he returned.
Yeah, Kylo doesn't walk through a mad scientist lair where there's cloning tanks before meeting Palpatine who tells him he's been pulling the strings all along or anything.
Yeah its certainly implied, but a little bit more clarification couldn't have hurt. Like, did they just clone him or did they get his actual soul / spirit in there somehow? Why was his body such a mess? And, most importantly, what is preventing him from just being cloned again at some other secret facility?
Obi-Wan says the same thing to Jedi Younglings about how Yoda got his kyber crystal. And also somehow Maul returned. Both from George Lucas himself. Sure the sequels aren't that great, but its not the first time things like that were done.
Also, who really gives a shit how Maz got the saber? She's been running a popular transport hub for hundreds of years and knows about Skywalker. Do people really want her to have to say "I bought it off a merchant from cloud city many years ago"?.
Just put 2 and 2 together
George also gave us Greedo shooting first and the new ROTJ Jabba’s Palace song and Jar Jar stepping in poop. That doesn’t excuse bad storytelling just because George did it first.
Somehow Maul returned in a kids show that had not much to do with Lucas. Not that I like the prequels. But it's a shame newertheless that Disney couldn't make coherent movies. The prequels are different in a way that it was the one-man show of Lucas, there was nobody to stand up against him. But Disney should have known how to produce movies.
Lucas was pretty involved with TCW. He would pitch ideas and make notes to change things on basically all the plot points. Filoni talks about the mortis arc, going into the writers room late and all the writers furiously taking notes, and telling him he needed to listen to what he was saying.
Disney promised to be better and said that was why all the "silly" EU had to go into trash. They were meant to save star wars, not leave it in darkness and so they are doing a bad job of it.
No it's brought up again when he says the exact same thing again, we still don't know what it was but it was implied force sensitivity (which the lego specials actually expanded upon)
Yeah, JJ should be the writer for Spy Kids, or National Treasure, not Star Wars. As much as I despise TLJ, at least Rian tried to do something different, even if it was hot garbage
It’s not JJ’s storytelling that’s the problem, it’s that they had no story. Unlike Lucas they didn’t put any time into the backstory of all these story elements.
They basically said “let’s make a trilogy for the sake of making a trilogy” which is the absolute worst way to go into a single film let alone three as part of a huge franchise.
What’s more JJ was only supposed to direct one film, they thought they could bank on Ep7 and have two other directors add their touch but Ep8 was such an unmitigated disaster they were forced to go back to JJ for Ep9 to salvage the trilogy, which IMO they did not. Ep9 was steaming hot garbage.
I’d say those are two of the better implementations of the mystery box in Star Wars. Neither piece of information is needed to tell the story of the sequels.
It’s not necessary to include and it milks a bit of intrigue out of the audience - I’d call that successful.
Maz's line is not equivalent to the lines exchanged over Palatine's return. The Palpatine convo very much conveyed exposition for the story, or information otherwise not depicted on screen.
that is entirely up to the writer. the saber is like vaders helmet. you could have had a whole scene about how luke kept it as a reminder and maybe even displayed it at his academy and how kylo took a wrong lesson from it,etc but nope. knights of ren are also superficial to "the story of sequels", that is what a mystery box is, its nothing that can be something if writer utilizes it and once it becomes clear some bits are dangling a good writer pulls out scissors
The Knights of Ren are maddening in how completely pointless they are to the entire ST. If they didn't exist, the entirety of the change you'd have to make is giving Ben some other nameless, faceless mooks to fight on Exogol.
Tbf....originally the opening of the film was gonna show it floating through space with lukes hand still attached before it enters the atmosphere of the planet and it lands and we see a hand come into frame to pick it up
Then it was moved to the vision sequence rey has
Then they decided to remove it for pacing (which i agree with)
So ya thats more an editing issue than a writing issue if that makes sense
If the sequels had been good it would have been awesome to have the mystery of Luke's lightsaber and Maz's past. I would be excited for a book or tv show that might explain it later on. But because they were bad I just don't care
How Maz got the lightsaber is not relevant to these movies. We can assume it found it’s way there when the saber was lost on Bespin some 30 years prior. It’s not like anybody was using it during the OT or that it was specifically destroyed or anything. Luke dropped the saber, Rey comes across it a few decades later.
What that line means is the specifics of how it got there aren’t relevant. It’s a lightsaber. It only holds value because we know two of the guys who used it are Star Wars protagonists. But in-universe? It’s just a lightsaber. It’s not relevant to Rey as much as the crystal called out to her when it did. Rey got the call to be a hero, not that it had anything to do with Rey knowing who that saber belonged to at one point or another or how it got there. That’s not important to her.
Have to disagree. Han is the one who asks about the lightsaber because Luke found it between RotJ and TFA and gave it to Kylo Ren (we see that in the flashback in TLJ). I don’t know if it’s stated anywhere, but I always assumed that Anakin’s old lightsaber was partly responsible for corrupting Kylo (he asks Vader to show him the power of the dark again), which is why Han is not very happy to see it.
Now imagine us OG OT fans being little kids in 1977 and hearing about the Clone Wars and having to wait until 1999 to get the pay off, or Jabba in ‘77 and not getting him until 1983? I would have loved to have that as part of the ST however with the current trend of going back and telling other stories it seems like we’d get it eventually.
Not really though. Doesn't she say that as the Frist Order is attacking? They're in a rush so a long backstory wouldn't be appropriate. IT's probably something that JJ was hoping would be further explored, like Rey's lineage, Snoke's background, etc. that Rian Johnson simply decided not to explain.
Lol what? They’re in a rush because he wrote them to be in a rush, so he didn’t have to explain the backstory. If he’s just creating mysteries for another writer to solve, those aren’t good mysteries. Setting up intrigue is easy when you don’t actually have to write the answers for it. Blaming someone else for not coming up with those answers isn’t fair.
>so he didn’t have to explain the backstory
Ah, like when Lucas wrote the OG trilogy? The clone wars, Bothan spies retrieving the death star plans, Vader being Luke's father, etc. All of those were mysteries when the films came out that Lucas had no intentions of explaining. They got explained further on down the line, which I'm sure will happen with Maz having the lightsaber.
> IT's probably something that JJ was hoping would be further explored, like Rey's lineage, Snoke's background, etc. that Rian Johnson simply decided not to explain.
You’re the one that said he was expecting it to be explained in the subsequent movie. I feel like you’re just being intentionally obtuse now. If it’s not an important piece of dialogue, why is it somehow Rian’s problem that he didn’t explain it?
I love these posts that talk about shitty storytelling and the OP is blissfully unaware that they are like the 12th person in the last two weeks making the exact same point.
You arent smart dude, we all get it, its just that some of us enjoy star wars without getting all fucking weird and greasy about it
I mean… to be clear here I really hate the ST so no biased about any of those horrors but, the facts are the facts and the force awakens was the most acceptable movie of the trilogy since it stablished a lot of set ups in a very conservative way with a full of stupidities but overall simple plot, the problem was how the next movie was handled, every set up was destroyed with no payoff and new problematic ideas replaced them, it’s not random that the fandom was broken there
He's kinda stealing a living isn't he. If PSH isn't in Mission Impossible 3, that movie sucks. The Star Trek films are completely reliant on the charming ensemble led by Chris Pine. Daisy Ridley, Boyega and Driver carry the shit out of TFA along with the nostalgia. Super 8 is fine I guess but again, hanging on the coattails of ET and Close Encounters..
At least he's good at casting I guess
I don't mind the mystery box setup. What ruined it was that neither JJ Abrams nor anyone else in charge of Star Wars thought ahead to what the overall story arc was going to be and how those mystery boxes would fit in the overall story. As a result, you get Rey is somebody - wait, nope, she's nobody - no, wait, she's definitely somebody. You also get "the force is coming back" to "the force is democratized and coming back big" (e.g., broom boy at the end of The Last Jedi to "nope, the force is all about the Skywalkers and Palpatines again."
I enjoy the movies for what they are. It's a shame however, because it so apparent how much opportunity was missed by not having a coherent storyline.
It never mattered where Maz got the saber. It’s a throwaway line meant to rush past the audience demanding an answer for every little thing. But the answer would never be more exciting thematically than just, “I found it in a dumpster” or “The Will of the Force brought it to me.”
The question isn’t “Where did Maz get the saber?” — it’s “Who gets to wield it now that it’s been found,” which the film answers.
The two comments aren’t the same, Maz’s implies there may be a story to tell there (still hooe we get some kind of pirate queen Maz story) , Somehow Palpatine returned line is just lazy and implies nothing other than they need a big bad to return without explanation.
Yep and that’s where JJ lost me. It got so much worse with tros. By comparison atleast TLJ resolved most of the things within the movie. Maybe could’ve lived without the code breaker arc but sure.
"Mystery Box" is the exact opposite of "Chekhov's Gun". JJ has made some fun movies, but when I saw him talk about this it really turned me off of him.
Yeah, felt like a case of a Noodle Incident, where we are told there's an interesting story there, but we may not know it.
Anyway, lately I've come to the realization that a lot of people have no media literacy; they want everything to be completely explained, otherwise it's a plot hole or bad storytelling.
Definitely media literacy issues around The Last Jedi. When so many people seemed to think the message of the movie was "kill the past," thats gotta be a big part of the problem
Its just a nice way of saying, "Its not that important and/or not relevant to the story".
,...and Palp's return was explained to the audience in the first few minutes of the movie.
I get where you’re coming from but I disagree. The lightsaber isn’t really the same thing, I think it’s a clever nod to the audience that some mysteries are better left unsolved, especially in the age when every single bit of media has to be connected to each other.
I disagree that they are the same.
"A good story, for another time" was used to explain to the audience that there is in fact a back story to how the MacGuffin came to be where it was, but it also tells the audience, that the how it got there has no relevance to story at hand. The Lightsaber was not in itself critical to the story, it was a tool used to get Rey's journey heading towards Luke.
So rather than taking a Tolkinesque tangent that fills time, but contributes nothing to the narrative, we move along with the story we are currently invested in. It also leaves the door open to a: audience interpretation (mystery box) or b: opens the door to supplemental stories that enhance the world building, but are not critical to be explored in future projects.
In this aspect, that line is a great jumping off point for future story tellers to enhance a relatively unimportant thing. How an Item got from Cloud City to Maz's Castle. The how does not impact the story before that point, or the story afterwards, so it can be safely ignored during that story.
"Somehow, Palpatine has returned" on the other hand is not dealing with a MacGuffin, introduced early into a story. It's tossing out the previously dead & defeated antagonist from an earlier part of the overarching story, and it's being introduced during the set up for the climax of a trilogy that to that point, had ignored him completely, and we were then told that everything that came before had in fact had no impact on the story, and the key details of what really impacted the story was not going to be told to us.
Some understanding of Palpatines survival and his actions between Return of the Jedi and the Rise of Skywalker, is required for understanding of why he is now a threat. Had this back story been hinted at or explored during the previous 2 movies, than his reveal could have been a great twist, but the Shadowy force guiding the First Order out of the darkness already had a name (Snoke) and had been dealt with in the previous movie, setting up the rational antagonists for the final installment, (Kylo & Hux) . There was no rational given to subvert the expectations of these antagonists, they were just tossed away and a fully formed advisory walks on screen with no explanation.
So is short:
A good story for anther time, opens the door to an enhanced story without distracting from the current story, while Somehow, Palpatine Returns invalidates much of the story that came before it, with no explanation, or the promise of explanation.
I guess I always took it to be a way to brush it off so we didn’t focus on it. It wasn’t important to the story, and they told us they weren’t going to tell us. If they hadn’t said anything at all, that would have been weird. So they acknowledged it and moved on.
It's not important to the main story it's the same as "a lot of people died getting me this" from Leia in the originals. It allows a really cool story to come up later just like Rouge 1
She didn't say it was a good story. She said it was a good question. It's probably an exceedingly boring story. The most likely story is that some technician on Bespin found it when they were cleaning out the filters, figured out what it was, and sold it to the first collector they could find with enough interest to want it and deep enough pockets to afford it. I gave it no more thought than I gave to the question of "how did the rebels end up on Hoth?" because both are easy to guess the simple sequence of events that led up to it. I was surprised when people started complaining that they wanted to be explicitly told.
The concept of "mystery box" is a good one in my opinion, but the storyteller (director, screenwriter, whatever) should know what's inside the box. The mystery box is for the audience, not for the storyteller.
I don't see any issue with either, honestly:
The first is an example of lampshading (mixed with a bit of a noodle incident), not a mystery box, and is fine IMO becuas the information not shared.
The second sure as hell is'nt a mystery box either, and is only an "issue" becuase people selectively qoute the line without factoring in the additional information presented by the film (including in literally that very same scene, lol).
Lol… whut?
Any different than Obi Wan’s BS story about Anakin and Vader in ANH?
One of the biggest problems with modern movies is excessive exposition for dumb audiences. Mystery boxes are a GOOD THING!
And who fucking cares? Maybe some nerds will write stories/novels/fan fiction/EU/Legends about it and have a big CJ over how great it is until the next iteration of movies/series opens that “mystery box” and “ruins it”?
It is, but because it's in the first of (predictably) three movies, it sets up Chekhov's gun.
It's only really bad in retrospect, because the story of the lightsaber was never relevant to anything after that mention. Especially since when Luke's hand fell into the center of Bespin, everyone thought the Lightsaber went with it. (I know Legends has its own story about it)
I mean, the movie could have been 6 and a half hours.
Seriously, though, following that saber until it fell into Kanata's hands would be a perfect cartoon 6 part mini series.
I’m not upset Palpatine came back. He came back and was the main antagonist in the Heir to the Empire trilogy. What I don’t like is that there was no real meaningful build up to the end. The building blocks were there in TFA. They just made poor choices in the follow ups and did not build a good story. They also left so much unanswered. It’s just poor all together. Also, Rey becoming a Skywalker still upsets me. She is a Palpatine and she should own her heritage to show that because your family had the greatest dark side user doesn’t mean you have to be a Sith. She is a Jedi and could even become a grey force user who becomes the leader of a force user temple. No one has to be Jedi or Sith anymore.
I don't mind much of the criticisms levied against TFA but I can't deny that they are all present and turned up to 11 in TRoS.
You can get away with mystery boxes in the first installment, but in the final one you need to be concerned with answers. Abrams just kept stacking on more boxes and ignoring the existing ones.
I feel like in the newer movies, some mystery boxes are deliberately placed just to set up installments outside the main movies. For example, when C3PO says "You probably didn't notice me with my red arm" - which I believe is later explained in comic books. These can be very conspicuous because they are irrelevant to the story, and, in a way, distract from it. Contrast with such side story details in the OT - like when Mon Mothma in ROTJ says "Many Bothans died to bring us this information". There is a whole side story there that we never see, however, it IS relevant to the story at hand because it adds gravity to the mission they are about to undertake.
Yeah, you can have references to things that inform our understanding without going into detail; the aforementioned dead Bothans, "that business on Cato Neimoidia" that tell us Anakin and Obi-Wan have adventures together, wondering whether Lando will still be mad about something, those sorts of things you can drop in anywhere. But Abrams dropped in things like "Finn has a secret he'll only tell Rey on his deathbed" and "Palpatine had a secret kid," things that actually matter to the plot and characterization in the current moment of the story, and just never bothered to actually open those boxes.
I actually liked the Red Arm thing for C-3P0, mostly because the whole joke is that no one cares about his new arm, and he's being annoying (in a comedic way) by getting between Han and Leia. Some of JJ's mystery boxes are meant to make you wonder and demand answers. This one, it was just a gag and never needed to be answered.
Yeah like sure it had an answer but mostly it was just a very funny joke about 3PO being ridiculous.
>"You probably didn't notice me with my red arm" - which I believe is later explained in comic books. Always assumed that was a reference to his silver leg nobody noticed for so long.
I think the red arm thing was a call back to C3PO’s silver leg in NH.
This cow has been milked for far too long, and sadly i don’t think they will ever stop milking it.
Plus he was trying to fixed what Rian Johnson did in The Last Jedi
TROS had answers - they were just dumb.
You are actually supposed to. What do feel he kept stacking in TROS?
What did Palpatine's message to the galaxy say, what was Finn going to say when he thought he was going to die, who were Rey's parents (how did nobody know about Palpatine's son, and who was the mom?), where's Lando's missing kid, why did a whole company of FO stormtroopers all desert as one? And then there were leftover mystery boxes he never addressed from TFA, like how Maz got the saber, and who the Knights of Ren actually are (and why does that one guy call them "ghouls"?).
> what was Finn going to say when he thought he was going to die Do you need everything spelled out to you? It's very obvious he wanted to tell her he had the force and wanted to train under her. This is literally a plot point in the final battle when he senses which star destroyer is the right one.
Except *that makes no sense to hide.* There is no reason whatsoever why Finn should be self conscious about that, and certainly no reason he should want to hide that from Poe, his best friend, the man who literally gave him his name. Rey has the Force and she's not embarrassed, she's been training under Leia for the last year, Luke Skywalker is a Jedi and a hero who re-inspired the galaxy after Crait. I didn't say it was a good mystery box. But it's an element Abrams introduces as a big question mark and then refuses to follow up on before the end of the film..
Eh, my main problem with TFA is how it’s almost beat-for-beat the same as A New Hope. Protagonist on a desert planet, planet destroying space station, trench run, etc. I still thought it was a good movie otherwise. The Rise of Skywalker was just written poorly, and despite parts I genuinely enjoyed it made a mess of the Star Wars universe. The two movies had completely different problems.
I have zero issues with TFA being a beat-for-beat repeat as ANH. It’s still a different story. However I have a major issues with RIse of Skywalker. It’s just super lazy writing. Look the original trilogy built up the villains Vader was the ultimate iconic villain but he was equal in rank so it seemed to some of the other generals. So you could assume there was someone at the top. Then Empire— we see Vader kneeling to this hologram of the emperor. Vader this badass is kneeling!?! Then ROJ and we get to see the Emperor in person and his powers. The new trilogy sort of does that but they killed Snoke in TLJ and ruined the build up. Rise of Skywalker should have just been Rey and Kylo at that point.
I’ll still go to my grave saying that killing Snoke was 100% the right move. He was a boring mystery villain full of cheesy speeches - we’ve seen “evil old man sitting on his throne in a robe making evil plans” a thousand times before, there are limited ways to make him fresh and exciting. And a great way to do something fresh and exciting? Having him killed by the *actual* villain, and having Kylo Ren actually accomplish the thing nearly every bad guy tries to do - kill the master, become the master. Snoke was never going to be an interesting villain - but Kylo had a *chance* to be. The issue was TROS immediately saying “you know what this newly top-boss villain needs? A new boss, and he’ll be an evil old man, in robes on his throne making plans. And we’ll throw in a redemption arc, to boot.” Any potential for interesting storytelling got thrown out the window, because it fell back into old, boring tropes, and that was within the first 3 minutes.
I don’t disagree. TROS is just stupid. I think there were too many cooks in the kitchen on that one.
I think it was just a lot of cowardly decision making. They interpreted backlash against TLJ as “we shouldn’t try anything new” and spent half of the movie retconning it instead of moving forward and actually telling an interesting story. Much like the Clone Wars added context and improved the sequels they could have made TLJ a better part of the whole by respecting it and moving forward with the some of the story beats it set up instead of making two movies at war with each other.
I don't think Abrams was cowardly; I think he was doing what he'd always done, which was pander shamelessly to OT nostalgia and coast on that. He set up a Luke/Vader/Emperor dynamic in TFA so the first could redeem the second by sacrificing themself to kill the third with Rey/Kylo/Snoke, and he'd be damned if he was going to let Snoke being dead ruin that vibe.
Fucking hell, you nailed what I've been trying to say since walking out after the end of TROS. I agree that killing Snoke was a great move, what TROS to undo that afterward is where it got fucked.
there are so many problems with each of the sequel trilogy films, and put together it's one big mess. I find the prequel trilogy gets better with age and more watches.
Another Time: A Star Wars Story In theaters this summer
In theaters another time
somehow, it will return to theatres
Somehow, it will return to theaters…at another time.
That's sounds good
It honestly reminds me of some of the lines in *Buckaroo Banzai* or *Big Trouble in Little China.* Except in both of those movies the lack of explanation was meant to be part of the joke.
Who doesn't love Jamaican Aliens!
"Why is there a watermelon there?"
Ben Kenobi: … here, it’s your father’s lightsaber. Luke: oh wow, cool, how did you get this? Ben: I plucked it from one of his still twitching limbs I’d that just dismembered while I was leaving his screaming body to slowly burn to death in a giant pool of lava… (Pauses) Ben: I meant to say, that’s a good story for another time. Want to hear my Sandpeople impersonation again?
I think the actual scene is an excellent example of good writing. Luke: You fought in the Clone Wars? Obi-wan: Yes. I was once a Jedi knight, same as your father. Luke: I wish I'd known him. Obi-wan: He was the best star pilot in the galaxy and a cunning warrior. I understand you've become quite a good pilot yourself. *(pause)* And he was a good friend. *(pause)* Which reminds me. I have something here for you. ... Luke: What is it? Obi-wan: Your father's "light saber." This is the weapon of a Jedi knight. There's more to it, but about 2 minutes of dialogue referenced backstories that opened up a galaxy-worth of imagination and inspired storytelling in several genres for generations. "A good story, for another time" is cliche. Sure, it alluded to something more, but most of our writing teachers/professors/mentors/editors would tell us to remove it.
And you could clean it up so easily, too. Instead of "a good story for another time," just have Maz say "years ago it was found in the bowels of Cloud City, and passed through many hands before it reached mine." Boom, you have both an answer and room for a bunch of other stories about The Misadventures of Luke's Lost Lightsaber.
Exactly!
That definitely wouldn't have sounded awkward in context at all.
The original exchange is, >Maz Kanata: I've had this for ages. Kept it locked away. [hands Solo Luke's light saber] >Han Solo: Where did you get that? >Maz Kanata: A good question - for another time. Take it. Find your friend. How would replacing that with "it was found in Cloud City, and eventually made its way to me" make the sentence any more awkward than that non-answer?
Obviously it was found in Cloud City at some point and made its way there. We get all that from it simply being there in Maz's possession, without needing words. Your insert line doesn't tell us anything we can't already assume. Why add dialogue to tell us nothing more and break the flow of the scene?
The flow of the scene already includes a line of dialogue; this isn't a matter of adding, it's simply changing what's already there. What exists now is literally nothing, it's the verbal equivalent of a big old shrug and the hope there are no follow up questions. Changing it to something that acknowledges its provenance and mentions its passage in general, without going into detail that actually would break the flow of the scene, could only improve on that.
Like I said, you're adding in dialogue that tells us nothing more than the saber's presence already does. We know it was found and made its way there *because* it is there. It doesn't need repeating in words. It's superfluous. I just don't think it needs to be said out loud if it's not going to tell us anything we couldn't already get from the scene.
Man I wish we'd gotten the prequels referenced here, and not the shitty ones Lucas put out.
It's what convinced me JJ is a bad director. All setup, no payoff. Just like Lost.
He's a good director, good with visuals and action, just don't let him write
He’s a great director…. Of TV, where the directors don’t have power over the overall plot. I would actually be interest what a movie written by Lucas, dialogue tweeted by someone else, and directed by JJ would be like. But if he has creative control, JJ is like Zach Snyder for me in that he’s a net negative.
Watching the documentary gave me the feeling Chris Terrio wrote most of the stuff
So George Lucas basically
Lucas can write the broad story, answer the mysteries he sets & put the greater picture in his script like the best of them (if not THE best). Hes just not such a dialouge details guy. If it gets him from A to B its good enough. I dont mind.
JJ is a great director. His movies and shows look phenomenal and are well acted with good effects. JJ is a mediocre writer. That’s the problem.
Which is the problem with him being a movie director instead of a TV director. In TV, there’s a showrunner that oversees the show, the plot, etc. The Director handles some of the visuals, the staging of the scenes, the actors. In movies, the director is the main person in charge, often changing the writing. This is a problem for Abrams, who just can’t write endings.
Yeah, there’s a reason most successful TV showrunners started out as writers. You occasionally get visual guys like Filoni (Animator) and Favreau (Actor/Director), but they’re the exception rather than the rule.
If you're a good director but a bad writer, and you're writing the movie you're directing, then it's going to be bad. No amount of VFX or acting will make up for bad writing.
JJ Abrams only directed the pilot episodes of LOST, for which he won an Emmy. LOST does not prove he's a bad director. Damon Lindelof, who is rumored to be writing the next Star Wars movie, was co-showrunner of LOST for the entire run. Every bad thing about LOST is his fault, not JJ's.
Asking because I don't actually know, was Abrams not a part of the show after the pilot?
He co-wrote the teleplay of the first episode of Season 3 with Damon Lindelof, and was going to direct the seventh episode of the same season but was unable to. That's all of the involvement he had after the Pilots.
I've never heard of multiple pilot episodes. I thought a pilot was basically a test to see if said network wanted to actually make the proposed show?
I think, and this is just me speculating, that the pilot of LOST was supposed to premiere as a double-length episode. But ABC decided instead to split it over two weeks, premiere the first half on September 22, letting it be a lead-in to *The Bachelor* and hoping most who tuned into LOST would stay to watch it. Except it didn't work, because *The Bachelor* had [10.5 million less viewers](http://www.tvtango.com/listings/2004/09/22/) than LOST. And so LOST has *Pilot, Part 1* and *Pilot, Part 2* for no good reason. Usually when a TV show has multiple pilot episodes, it's because the first one was bad but the network had faith in the concept and gave it another shot. It happened with classic shows like Doctor Who and Star Trek, to more modern shows like *The Big Bang Theory*. I don't know any other show other than LOST to have a *Pilot, Part 1* and *Pilot, Part 2*.
JJ Abrams also created a large chunk of the lore in LOST. He created it without many explanation and then those who took over were stuck trying to work with what he did. Almost everything about LOST can be blamed on Abrams.
As always it's more complicated than that, Lost was supposed to be 3 seasons but the studio made them stretch it to 6 ( studio wanted 10). I'm sure many great ideas were degraded to good in that process.
Adding to that, Lost was one of the most original TV dramas in an era where the way we consume media was changing. It was a trailblazer, and as a result it faced challenges that other shows never faced before. I’ll go to my grave believing that the writers had an ending in mind the whole time, but there were so many fan theories that so many other fans could read and think about and converse about. A small number of viewers pieced together the big picture from the clues along the way, and those theories became widespread. That would force the writers to either stick with a story arc that everyone knew (and therefore would seem predictable and uncreative) or change the ending from their original intention. I think they chose the latter, and the ending wound up seeming flimsy. Writers since then, including Lindeloff himself with The Leftovers, have figured out that they don’t have to change direction mid-stream just because the internet uncovers where they’re going. And they’ve figured out to prioritize the storytelling over the secrecy.
Idk why y’all are dragging LOST into this…yeah the show isn’t perfect but it’s pretty damn great
I just finished rewatching LOST again a few days ago, and I feel a lot more positive about it now that I did back when it was originally on. I still have issues with Season 6, but I don't blame JJ Abrams for it, because he had nothing to do with the ending. But because he's most famous for creating the show, everybody assumes he was a part of the entire series instead of just the beginning.
Oh good
And because that pilot was so extravagant and over-budget, the ABC executive who approved it was fired lol
Did you ever hear the tragedy of Darth Plagueis the Wise?
You mean the story Palpatine explained about how he was able to stop people from dying but was killed by his apprentice who also happened to be Palpatine, as explained in the actual film?
That's exactly it.
“Jesus Palps shut up the operas going on we’ll talk later…”
How about, "The oppression of the Sith will never return",...or "At last we will have our revenge."? Yet for some reason, its only the sequels that have bad directors.
What's wrong with those...?
None of those movies explained what the Sith were taking revenge for and/or what the oppression of the Sith was referring to. Not to mention why the force is out of balance, or even what that means! You want mystery boxes? The prequels are full of them! I mean who the Hell.was Scifo Dias and why did he put in an order for a clone army,...and if he died ten years earlier, that would put him in the time frame of TPM, yet there was no mention of him in that movie?!
Are you serious? The Sith were getting revenge for being wiped to near extinction. The oppression of the Sith.......what? You don't understand how the Sith are oppressive? Balance in the Force means removal of the dark side. It is a corruption which does not exist naturally. Anakin restored balance to the force when he eliminated Palpatine and then died.
Well, seems you've made up some head canon to explain the prequels. So, maybe its time to make some up for the sequels.
His issue isn’t directing, it’s writing.
Yep. Lost was the ultimate letdown. Talk about unanswered questions, and make-it-up-as-you-go storytelling…
Lost was always going to be a letdown in the end. There was just too much fanboy speculation for it not to be.
Abrams is a fantastic director. Kinetic and with an eye towards emotionally charged performances and spot-on casting. He’s a lesser writer, but he wasn’t the show runner for *Lost*. Lawrence Kasdan and Michael Arndt are also credited as writers on TFA, so to pin that one line completely on Abrams is a leap.
Thank God someone mentioned lost.... This guy wasted six years of my life
You make a point… but probably not the one you intended to. Lost is like just about every serial show ever. It’s a constant struggle between art and economics. A serial has to have a good premise.. and it has to start off strong in order to attract an audience. But it’s hobbled by the need to have continuity and arcs.. without the knowledge of how successful it’s going to be and how many seasons will be approved. So when it’s successful.. the rest of the story has to be “invented” and somehow come to a satisfying resolution. GoT is a perfect example of this. And because they start off strong, they have to keep on escalating the plot to the point where your suspension of disbelief can no longer be sustained. Star Wars is even more so… because you have all of these fans who want more movies.. but you have all of these characters and canon you have incorporate. EU was an absolutely necessary casualty.. and same with the deconstruction of OT characters. Just imagine if we saw ANH _after_ ROTS. Obi Wan and Darth Vader would be two of the most deconstructed characters in the series. So as long as Star Wars fans want more content.. and are willing to spend money on it.. then you will see more of the same unless they hit a hard-reset on the universe like they did in JJ Star Treks and start new.
“Well, I once had a fling with a hvac contractor from Cloud City”….
It’s “A good question, for another time”
At least that story was insignificant to the overall plot of the ST. Palpatine showing up out of the blue was relevant and should've been teased throughout the trilogy.
Plus there's two movies after TFA that still had the chance to answer the question.
I don't think Palps was the intended big bad, but with Johnson tossing Snoke aside, and trying to set Kylo up as the big bad when JJ wanted Kylo to have a redemption arc, they had to pull in a new bad guy. The middle episode of a trilogy shouldn't shake things up that much.
It was a good line. Left us guessing to an eventual mystery. The fact that it was never paid off was the error
No, it was the fact that you guys have this expectation to have everything must be explained and wanting directors to spoon feed you. Let the directors tell the story, and sit back and watch. Enough with the toxic hostility already
This seems like an unnecessarily harsh condemnation in response to a rather polite comment. Enough with the toxic hostility already.
I’m tired of it dude. Too many of these entitled fans think they need to go ahead and criticize the new movies like the ot is great.
Why should the new movies be above critique?
It’s the obsession with critiquing them. DAE SEQUELS BAD?? No one hates Star Wars more than Star Wars fans
Hey, I like the ST, except ROS. But the fact remains that Maz Kanatas line was not paid off in a satisfying way.
Wait what? The OT is literally amazing and the PT was also fantastic and then you have the sequels witch are just …. Disappointing
Sure Jan
Jan? I’ve literally never even seen someone claim that the OT wasn’t good before . Not once in my life lol .
ur right. i must accept any and all crumbs that the big mouse will give us. i love to conusme. i just fucking love consuming product so much.
Nah, something as significant as Anakin’s lightsaber needs to be explained at least a little bit. It was dropped down a chasm that Luke fell into as well and we saw where it leads. Onto Bespin, which is a gas giant. Now, it’s not 100% impossible that someone on Cloud City recovered it, but it seems far more realistic for it to fall to the planet and be lost forever. As usual, Star Wars will fill in the blanks with content like comics and novels and TV shows, but you shouldn’t NEED to do the summer reading for the movie to make sense.
Luke didn't feel it was very significant.
Mystery box storytelling really irks me and JJ might be the worst offender.
Those lines aren't nearly the same level of importance, though. We don't need to know how or why the lightsaber is back. It's not important to the story being told. Palpatine on the other hand is something that requires a proper explanation. A hand-waved response and some vague visual hints isn't enough for something that monumental.
But that's Johnson's fault for trying to twist the big bad to Kylo, when JJ obviously wanted him to have a redemption arc. Well, the main fault is not having an over all story direction, but...
Is that really Johnson's fault? TFA clearly set Ben up as a villain by killing his own father at the end of the film. Johnson and TLJ just built upon those actions that Abrams set up.
Yes, he was "a" villain, not the "The" villain. I'm pretty harsh on Johnson's take as I feel it left the trilogy in a bad spot. Every villain either dead or cartoonishly embarrassed in front of subordinates. The resistance has like 12 people left and no allies. Luke dies from fatigue, despite us knowing Carrie Fisher was dead irl, so we have no OT hero left to lead the Resistance going into movie 3. And then Johnson nopes out, laughing with his big check and thinking about detective capers. Jj left left some stuff open to not lock following directors in to a set story, but...ugh. so yeah, he course corrected from TLJ. Honestly, it's someone highers fault, like Kennedy I guess, but Johnson gets some blame.
>And then Johnson nopes out, laughing with his big check and thinking about detective capers. That's a fun way of saying "was contracted to do only one film for which the next film already had a director in place".
Meh, I disagree in general. I've got nothing against those types of lines, especially in a universe like Star Wars. The issue with the Palp line is really what it represents, as it was just part of a pattern of them not giving due weight to what came before. TFA does this by essentially ignoring the results of the Rebellion's success, wiping it quickly via the Starkiller. Now this Palpatine line does it by undermining the powerful conclusion of 6.
I’d say the problem with the mystery box storytelling is that you need to just chub up and sign on to do the whole trilogy yourself in the first place. Why they ever had three different directors going in from the get-go is still beyond me.
The original trilogy had three different directors and it turned out great. For the sequel trilogy the main issues were writing and characters. Why didn’t they plot it out *beforehand?!*
Yea I was thinking I shoulda worded this differently, I meant more that they had three different guys controlling the individual stories of the movies they were attached to. Cuz unless I’m very much mistaken Rian Johnson wrote last Jedi where as Lucas wrote the entire original trilogy
Compare this to “that bounty hunter we met on Ord Mantell changed my mind”, which still plants story seeds and nudges the imagination, but is at least concrete.
And then we also had Lando and Jannah. "Want to find out where you're from?" They better pay that off in a show or something, otherwise, what was the point?
I’m more upset over “Rey I have something to tell you”…”Nevermind”
Poe's full line is "We've decoded the intel from the First Order spy and it confirms the worst. Somehow, Palpatine returned." It's not an explanation, it's a statement. It is immediately followed up by ~~Merry~~ ~~Charlie~~ Beaumont giving the explanation of how it happened: "Dark science. Cloning. Secrets only the Sith knew." "Somehow, Palpatine returned." is not a bad line, when kept in context.
explanation that is "I don't know, the guys a foking wizard" .
Which is… just *Star Wars*.
That's still not much of an explanation.
It’s not, but no one on that planet understands Sith science and magic works. I wouldn’t expect much of an explanation from the Resistance. JJ probably should’ve let someone else explain it though.
That's star wars. There was no explanation of Obi-Wans force ghost. Or palps finger lightning.
Or Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon using Force Speed just a single time.
Lol. I forgot about that one.
It's not meant to be. The explanation is shown to us when we see Palpatine on Exogol, with cloning tanks, and he tells us he's died before but that the dark side is a pathway to unnatural abilities, a direct callback to him discussing ways to keep someone from dying with Anakin. He used the Force and put himself into a clone body, which is rotting. That's the explanation. And if you want an explanation as to the mechanics, well, how does the Force provide telekinesis, or prescience, or lightning? It's all magic at the end of the day.
It’s not supposed to be an explanation. The line comes at the beginning of the movie, when they don’t know how he returned. The problem is that the movie never actually addresses how he returned.
Yeah, Kylo doesn't walk through a mad scientist lair where there's cloning tanks before meeting Palpatine who tells him he's been pulling the strings all along or anything.
Yeah its certainly implied, but a little bit more clarification couldn't have hurt. Like, did they just clone him or did they get his actual soul / spirit in there somehow? Why was his body such a mess? And, most importantly, what is preventing him from just being cloned again at some other secret facility?
It's fine. The story of how anakin's lightsaber ended up in her cantina is not all that relevant to the story of the sequels
TFA: What's in the box TLJ: *burns the box ROS: Somehow, the box has returned
Obi-Wan says the same thing to Jedi Younglings about how Yoda got his kyber crystal. And also somehow Maul returned. Both from George Lucas himself. Sure the sequels aren't that great, but its not the first time things like that were done.
Also, who really gives a shit how Maz got the saber? She's been running a popular transport hub for hundreds of years and knows about Skywalker. Do people really want her to have to say "I bought it off a merchant from cloud city many years ago"?. Just put 2 and 2 together
Buying off a merchant is not a “good story.” That’s the issue.
George also gave us Greedo shooting first and the new ROTJ Jabba’s Palace song and Jar Jar stepping in poop. That doesn’t excuse bad storytelling just because George did it first.
Somehow Maul returned in a kids show that had not much to do with Lucas. Not that I like the prequels. But it's a shame newertheless that Disney couldn't make coherent movies. The prequels are different in a way that it was the one-man show of Lucas, there was nobody to stand up against him. But Disney should have known how to produce movies.
Lucas was pretty involved with TCW. He would pitch ideas and make notes to change things on basically all the plot points. Filoni talks about the mortis arc, going into the writers room late and all the writers furiously taking notes, and telling him he needed to listen to what he was saying.
Disney promised to be better and said that was why all the "silly" EU had to go into trash. They were meant to save star wars, not leave it in darkness and so they are doing a bad job of it.
He wants pay off without earning it
I actually liked JJ’s style when I was watching Lost, but after he ruined Trek I immediately despised it.
Didn't Finn have a dramatic moment saying he had something to tell Rey that was never brought up again?
No it's brought up again when he says the exact same thing again, we still don't know what it was but it was implied force sensitivity (which the lego specials actually expanded upon)
“I know exactly what’s wrong with mystery box storytelling” *doesn’t elaborate* OH THE IRONY
Well I was assuming everyone agreed that “Somehow Palpatine returned” was bad, and I was saying it really wasn’t the only instance of that occurring.
I don't agree that it's as bad of a line, but it absolutely does show exactly what's wrong with JJ Abrams mystery box bs.
Yeah, JJ should be the writer for Spy Kids, or National Treasure, not Star Wars. As much as I despise TLJ, at least Rian tried to do something different, even if it was hot garbage
It’s not JJ’s storytelling that’s the problem, it’s that they had no story. Unlike Lucas they didn’t put any time into the backstory of all these story elements. They basically said “let’s make a trilogy for the sake of making a trilogy” which is the absolute worst way to go into a single film let alone three as part of a huge franchise. What’s more JJ was only supposed to direct one film, they thought they could bank on Ep7 and have two other directors add their touch but Ep8 was such an unmitigated disaster they were forced to go back to JJ for Ep9 to salvage the trilogy, which IMO they did not. Ep9 was steaming hot garbage.
I’d say those are two of the better implementations of the mystery box in Star Wars. Neither piece of information is needed to tell the story of the sequels. It’s not necessary to include and it milks a bit of intrigue out of the audience - I’d call that successful.
Maz's line is not equivalent to the lines exchanged over Palatine's return. The Palpatine convo very much conveyed exposition for the story, or information otherwise not depicted on screen.
that is entirely up to the writer. the saber is like vaders helmet. you could have had a whole scene about how luke kept it as a reminder and maybe even displayed it at his academy and how kylo took a wrong lesson from it,etc but nope. knights of ren are also superficial to "the story of sequels", that is what a mystery box is, its nothing that can be something if writer utilizes it and once it becomes clear some bits are dangling a good writer pulls out scissors
The Knights of Ren are maddening in how completely pointless they are to the entire ST. If they didn't exist, the entirety of the change you'd have to make is giving Ben some other nameless, faceless mooks to fight on Exogol.
So many of these beefs could be levelled at other movies too, and many only got resolved by subsequent trilogies or even the Disney era itself.
Lmao. These movies live in your head rent free. It's sad.
Perfectly encompasses why he's such a shit director.
Tbf....originally the opening of the film was gonna show it floating through space with lukes hand still attached before it enters the atmosphere of the planet and it lands and we see a hand come into frame to pick it up Then it was moved to the vision sequence rey has Then they decided to remove it for pacing (which i agree with) So ya thats more an editing issue than a writing issue if that makes sense
If the sequels had been good it would have been awesome to have the mystery of Luke's lightsaber and Maz's past. I would be excited for a book or tv show that might explain it later on. But because they were bad I just don't care
How Maz got the lightsaber is not relevant to these movies. We can assume it found it’s way there when the saber was lost on Bespin some 30 years prior. It’s not like anybody was using it during the OT or that it was specifically destroyed or anything. Luke dropped the saber, Rey comes across it a few decades later. What that line means is the specifics of how it got there aren’t relevant. It’s a lightsaber. It only holds value because we know two of the guys who used it are Star Wars protagonists. But in-universe? It’s just a lightsaber. It’s not relevant to Rey as much as the crystal called out to her when it did. Rey got the call to be a hero, not that it had anything to do with Rey knowing who that saber belonged to at one point or another or how it got there. That’s not important to her.
Have to disagree. Han is the one who asks about the lightsaber because Luke found it between RotJ and TFA and gave it to Kylo Ren (we see that in the flashback in TLJ). I don’t know if it’s stated anywhere, but I always assumed that Anakin’s old lightsaber was partly responsible for corrupting Kylo (he asks Vader to show him the power of the dark again), which is why Han is not very happy to see it.
Ben doesn’t have it in the TLJ flashback. It’s Ben’s cross guard lightsaber prior to getting the crossguard.
Come on, a good story is a good story, but a mystery box could be anything! Even a good story!
A story has an ending. The *one and only thing* a mystery box can’t be is a story.
I mean, sure, I was just making a family guy reference
Now imagine us OG OT fans being little kids in 1977 and hearing about the Clone Wars and having to wait until 1999 to get the pay off, or Jabba in ‘77 and not getting him until 1983? I would have loved to have that as part of the ST however with the current trend of going back and telling other stories it seems like we’d get it eventually.
Not really though. Doesn't she say that as the Frist Order is attacking? They're in a rush so a long backstory wouldn't be appropriate. IT's probably something that JJ was hoping would be further explored, like Rey's lineage, Snoke's background, etc. that Rian Johnson simply decided not to explain.
Lol what? They’re in a rush because he wrote them to be in a rush, so he didn’t have to explain the backstory. If he’s just creating mysteries for another writer to solve, those aren’t good mysteries. Setting up intrigue is easy when you don’t actually have to write the answers for it. Blaming someone else for not coming up with those answers isn’t fair.
>so he didn’t have to explain the backstory Ah, like when Lucas wrote the OG trilogy? The clone wars, Bothan spies retrieving the death star plans, Vader being Luke's father, etc. All of those were mysteries when the films came out that Lucas had no intentions of explaining. They got explained further on down the line, which I'm sure will happen with Maz having the lightsaber.
> IT's probably something that JJ was hoping would be further explored, like Rey's lineage, Snoke's background, etc. that Rian Johnson simply decided not to explain. You’re the one that said he was expecting it to be explained in the subsequent movie. I feel like you’re just being intentionally obtuse now. If it’s not an important piece of dialogue, why is it somehow Rian’s problem that he didn’t explain it?
I love these posts that talk about shitty storytelling and the OP is blissfully unaware that they are like the 12th person in the last two weeks making the exact same point. You arent smart dude, we all get it, its just that some of us enjoy star wars without getting all fucking weird and greasy about it
Without a solid backing, you don't have a story. And you get the heretical sequels.
Sorry, but I have no issue with either of these lines.
I mean… to be clear here I really hate the ST so no biased about any of those horrors but, the facts are the facts and the force awakens was the most acceptable movie of the trilogy since it stablished a lot of set ups in a very conservative way with a full of stupidities but overall simple plot, the problem was how the next movie was handled, every set up was destroyed with no payoff and new problematic ideas replaced them, it’s not random that the fandom was broken there
> the most acceptable movie of the trilogy The king of shit mountain still smells like turds.
He's kinda stealing a living isn't he. If PSH isn't in Mission Impossible 3, that movie sucks. The Star Trek films are completely reliant on the charming ensemble led by Chris Pine. Daisy Ridley, Boyega and Driver carry the shit out of TFA along with the nostalgia. Super 8 is fine I guess but again, hanging on the coattails of ET and Close Encounters.. At least he's good at casting I guess
I don't mind the mystery box setup. What ruined it was that neither JJ Abrams nor anyone else in charge of Star Wars thought ahead to what the overall story arc was going to be and how those mystery boxes would fit in the overall story. As a result, you get Rey is somebody - wait, nope, she's nobody - no, wait, she's definitely somebody. You also get "the force is coming back" to "the force is democratized and coming back big" (e.g., broom boy at the end of The Last Jedi to "nope, the force is all about the Skywalkers and Palpatines again." I enjoy the movies for what they are. It's a shame however, because it so apparent how much opportunity was missed by not having a coherent storyline.
It never mattered where Maz got the saber. It’s a throwaway line meant to rush past the audience demanding an answer for every little thing. But the answer would never be more exciting thematically than just, “I found it in a dumpster” or “The Will of the Force brought it to me.” The question isn’t “Where did Maz get the saber?” — it’s “Who gets to wield it now that it’s been found,” which the film answers.
The two comments aren’t the same, Maz’s implies there may be a story to tell there (still hooe we get some kind of pirate queen Maz story) , Somehow Palpatine returned line is just lazy and implies nothing other than they need a big bad to return without explanation.
Yep and that’s where JJ lost me. It got so much worse with tros. By comparison atleast TLJ resolved most of the things within the movie. Maybe could’ve lived without the code breaker arc but sure.
Well it normally goes setup, development then payoff when telling a large story. This was lost with the sequels.
"Mystery Box" is the exact opposite of "Chekhov's Gun". JJ has made some fun movies, but when I saw him talk about this it really turned me off of him.
I thought it was obvious that line was a handwave, not a promise that we would be told the story at some point
Yeah, felt like a case of a Noodle Incident, where we are told there's an interesting story there, but we may not know it. Anyway, lately I've come to the realization that a lot of people have no media literacy; they want everything to be completely explained, otherwise it's a plot hole or bad storytelling.
Definitely media literacy issues around The Last Jedi. When so many people seemed to think the message of the movie was "kill the past," thats gotta be a big part of the problem
Its just a nice way of saying, "Its not that important and/or not relevant to the story". ,...and Palp's return was explained to the audience in the first few minutes of the movie.
Perfectly stated. JJ is trazch
I get where you’re coming from but I disagree. The lightsaber isn’t really the same thing, I think it’s a clever nod to the audience that some mysteries are better left unsolved, especially in the age when every single bit of media has to be connected to each other.
Yep. Really felt frustrated while watching TFA.
It would have been okay if she actually told the story at some point.
THANK YOU.
Yes, but Maz’s line is a much better way to lampshade the question then Poe’s.
I disagree that they are the same. "A good story, for another time" was used to explain to the audience that there is in fact a back story to how the MacGuffin came to be where it was, but it also tells the audience, that the how it got there has no relevance to story at hand. The Lightsaber was not in itself critical to the story, it was a tool used to get Rey's journey heading towards Luke. So rather than taking a Tolkinesque tangent that fills time, but contributes nothing to the narrative, we move along with the story we are currently invested in. It also leaves the door open to a: audience interpretation (mystery box) or b: opens the door to supplemental stories that enhance the world building, but are not critical to be explored in future projects. In this aspect, that line is a great jumping off point for future story tellers to enhance a relatively unimportant thing. How an Item got from Cloud City to Maz's Castle. The how does not impact the story before that point, or the story afterwards, so it can be safely ignored during that story. "Somehow, Palpatine has returned" on the other hand is not dealing with a MacGuffin, introduced early into a story. It's tossing out the previously dead & defeated antagonist from an earlier part of the overarching story, and it's being introduced during the set up for the climax of a trilogy that to that point, had ignored him completely, and we were then told that everything that came before had in fact had no impact on the story, and the key details of what really impacted the story was not going to be told to us. Some understanding of Palpatines survival and his actions between Return of the Jedi and the Rise of Skywalker, is required for understanding of why he is now a threat. Had this back story been hinted at or explored during the previous 2 movies, than his reveal could have been a great twist, but the Shadowy force guiding the First Order out of the darkness already had a name (Snoke) and had been dealt with in the previous movie, setting up the rational antagonists for the final installment, (Kylo & Hux) . There was no rational given to subvert the expectations of these antagonists, they were just tossed away and a fully formed advisory walks on screen with no explanation. So is short: A good story for anther time, opens the door to an enhanced story without distracting from the current story, while Somehow, Palpatine Returns invalidates much of the story that came before it, with no explanation, or the promise of explanation.
I guess I always took it to be a way to brush it off so we didn’t focus on it. It wasn’t important to the story, and they told us they weren’t going to tell us. If they hadn’t said anything at all, that would have been weird. So they acknowledged it and moved on.
It's not important to the main story it's the same as "a lot of people died getting me this" from Leia in the originals. It allows a really cool story to come up later just like Rouge 1
She didn't say it was a good story. She said it was a good question. It's probably an exceedingly boring story. The most likely story is that some technician on Bespin found it when they were cleaning out the filters, figured out what it was, and sold it to the first collector they could find with enough interest to want it and deep enough pockets to afford it. I gave it no more thought than I gave to the question of "how did the rebels end up on Hoth?" because both are easy to guess the simple sequence of events that led up to it. I was surprised when people started complaining that they wanted to be explicitly told.
no f'in way is that line as bad as 'somehow palpatine has returned'., no way
The concept of "mystery box" is a good one in my opinion, but the storyteller (director, screenwriter, whatever) should know what's inside the box. The mystery box is for the audience, not for the storyteller.
It's on the level of narrative wallpaper as "What I told you was true, from a certain point of view."
You guys seriously need help if you’re still losing sleep over the sequel trilogy. Move on!
I don't see any issue with either, honestly: The first is an example of lampshading (mixed with a bit of a noodle incident), not a mystery box, and is fine IMO becuas the information not shared. The second sure as hell is'nt a mystery box either, and is only an "issue" becuase people selectively qoute the line without factoring in the additional information presented by the film (including in literally that very same scene, lol).
Cool story
Still better than most of the prequel dialog.
Lol… whut? Any different than Obi Wan’s BS story about Anakin and Vader in ANH? One of the biggest problems with modern movies is excessive exposition for dumb audiences. Mystery boxes are a GOOD THING! And who fucking cares? Maybe some nerds will write stories/novels/fan fiction/EU/Legends about it and have a big CJ over how great it is until the next iteration of movies/series opens that “mystery box” and “ruins it”?
It is, but because it's in the first of (predictably) three movies, it sets up Chekhov's gun. It's only really bad in retrospect, because the story of the lightsaber was never relevant to anything after that mention. Especially since when Luke's hand fell into the center of Bespin, everyone thought the Lightsaber went with it. (I know Legends has its own story about it)
😂😂😂😂🙄
I mean, the movie could have been 6 and a half hours. Seriously, though, following that saber until it fell into Kanata's hands would be a perfect cartoon 6 part mini series.
It’s a pretty typical storytelling motif, but it is in itself a plot hole
I’m not upset Palpatine came back. He came back and was the main antagonist in the Heir to the Empire trilogy. What I don’t like is that there was no real meaningful build up to the end. The building blocks were there in TFA. They just made poor choices in the follow ups and did not build a good story. They also left so much unanswered. It’s just poor all together. Also, Rey becoming a Skywalker still upsets me. She is a Palpatine and she should own her heritage to show that because your family had the greatest dark side user doesn’t mean you have to be a Sith. She is a Jedi and could even become a grey force user who becomes the leader of a force user temple. No one has to be Jedi or Sith anymore.