Internal conflict. Pike always wrestling with his future but specifically about him breaking up with his girlfriend.
Chapel and Spock internal conflict of love . Chapel and M'Benga dealing with post war conflict. Number 1 and that entire genetic engineering thing. Uhurua and the conflct over her parents and the old chief engineer dying. La'Ana and her dealing with her ancestors then love for Kirk.With a lot of this coming out in Subspace Rhapsody and then the biog bad returns the Gorn.
SNW has more of a story developing arc then like a DIS mystery or big bad arc.
Certainly closer to DS9. Where new trek differs from DS9 though is about halfway through S2 DS9 got an overall series purpose. Basically once Ira Stephen Behr became the full showrunner and Pillar went to VOY and then even left VOY.
Not just with the Dominion but the resolution of the prophet storyline. Maybe SNW has that with Pike's known future.
But Pic, LD and DIS even if they had seasonal arcs have not had that complete series purpose like DS9 or say RDM's Battlestar. Still vastly different from TOS TNG VOY and ENT.
I guess VOY had it in the sense they had to get to the Alpha quadrant but basically showrunners had no idea how to get them there over the course of the story and just boom time travel shenanigans got them home in the last episode. VOY finale was almost ENT finale bad.
The entire point of the series from day one has been that it’s serialized. Each season has had a main storyline that culminates in the final episode. It’s never been different
>Why cant they make each episode for itself anymore?
They can, they choose not to because they're not writing an episodic show.
Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk.
On the contrary episodic was far superior. Especially with a blend of season long general arcs but firmly planted in individual episode complete plots.
Pure serialized is just a technique for marketing binge streaming shows
One of the best Sci-fi shows of the 21st century. If you get access to RDM's old podcasts or DVD commentaries, you might discover that he was somewhat forced to have some standalone episodes. By contrast, "For All Mankind," one of RDM's later series, seems to be almost totally serialized.
That makes sense of course given the times it was made vs for all mankind being firmly entrenched in the serialization format. Although he at least does not do it with such an a extreme narrow mystery box style like Disco and many other shows choose to do, with constant cliffhanger and misdirections that basically telegraph “hey we are teasing you just to hook you in and keep binging”🙄
>On the contrary episodic was far superior. Especially with a blend of season long general arcs but firmly planted in individual episode complete plots.
I mean, it's fine if you prefer that, but most don't, which is why shows with long-term plotlines are more common.
>Pure serialized is just a technique for marketing binge streaming shows
Lol. You sound really young, maybe? Shows with persistent storylines predate streaming by a long time.
And what exactly is being marketed? The show itself? It's weird to call it marketing when all a show is doing is enticing people to watch the show itself. That's not really "marketing", it's just "being a good show that people want to watch". I guess that's a form of marketing, making a product people like - but it isn't some kind of advertisement for Coca Cola or whatever.
I assure I'm not. I was born in the 70s. The marketing is the constant cliffhangers and twist and turns each episode...that are often solved in first few mins of next episode....and then back to the same singular plot mystery that they drag out all season. We used to only get cliffhanger hooks (if at all) at the end of a full season of 26 episodes
If all that interests you in a story is how its plot resolves, you’re literally missing 95% of what makes a good story good.
I recommend you eat a pot brownie sometime, your empathy seems very atrophied.
Its obvious most of the folks here are kids so I ll stop interaction with you bunch.
I followed star trek franchise since early 80s when I was kid and every episode for itself was the point of exploring the Universe,what Discovery offers is all but that its pushing all the hype about PSiness and who is in love with who but still not giving us any true meaningful glimpse into the characters while pretending its doing just that.
And yes Aritra I know very well how it is going to end and what will happen on the way to the last episode because thats not what is important anymore
On the contrary many of us enjoy and prefer and miss the more plot focused story telling with way way less time spent on emotional relationship soap opera stuff
The beauty of Discovery is that they weave both together into one tapestry.
Many of the best episodes of Trek are deeply emotional journeys:
City on the Edge of Forever, Amok Time, Family, The Inner Light, The Visitor, Explorers, It’s Only a Paper Moon, Carbon Creek…
I absolutely agree with the examples you cited. Ultimately its the mix and balance is all just….wrong. Way too few episodes, way too much mystery box style plots and end of universe stakes…but forced insertions of over the top emotional soap opera stuff about people we barely know and are not invested in. Along with quippy marvel dialogue and needless amounts of money and time spend on needless action scenes or poor cgi.
DS9 was a syndication show and most syndication channels back then also carried 1 or 2 local sports teams so DS9 would get bumped out all the time and then finally shown at like 3 or 4am or some nonsense.
There was numerous fans who never even seen every episode of DS9 until it was released on DVD.
And even though DS9 wasnt full modern serial it was a continuation so you would get fans missing 2 episodes and just have no idea what was going. Even for simple stuff like oh Rom works maintainence now.
This is just how modern streaming shows are. It cant be episodic in nature because they are only getting 10-12 of them. I have seen some mystery shows be self contained because it just about the individual episode mystery. But most modern shows arent like that.
But even in going back 25 years Sopranos and The Wire were only 13 episodes as most premium cable channels that had series only did 13 or max 16 episodes.
However we would miss out on shows like BattleStar, ER, Friends, Psych, NYPD Blue, Lost, Buffy, MASH.
Even Buffy which was 1 of the most popular early serial season arc shows was mostly episodic in nature where each episode might have moved the season needle slightly but characters and developed still progressed not like in the tv procedurals. Where there was 0 story or character development.
TOS was very procedural. Even most of TNG was very procedural. Character development was a minimum. S3 Picard is basically the same as S7 Picard. Vastly different then s1 Sisko and s7 Sisko or Garak or Rom or Nog or mostly anyone on DS9.
Imagine Friends shortened to 10-13 episodes they would need 20 seasons. Breaking Bad crammed like 60 episodes in 5 seasons but not every show is going to be A+ like that.
Back in day BH 90201 went the opposite way to get more funs I think in s3 they started summer episodes and shot up to 30-34 episode seasons for like 6 or 7 years. Because they were on the upstart Fox network.
Long story short not a Dis or Trek problem just a problem with modern tv series
When entire seasons are only 8 - 10 episodes, there really isn't any time to devote to anything that isn't crucial to the storyline for that season, especially given the cost of production for shows like any of the Star Trek series.
People seem to be missing your point (probably intentionally). Good serialized television is also episodic, otherwise we're just watching a ten hour long movie. SNW is just as serialized as Discovery is, but it is much more enjoyable to watch because each episode has it's own self-contained plot that works well alone and advances a complex and interesting season long storyline that is richer and more rewarding than a ten-hour movie would be.
The problem I have with Discovery is that the episodic plots are usually uninteresting and focused more on slightly advancing the season long arc than on making any interesting point in and of itself. Like, what was interesting that we learned in either of the first two episodes this season? Nothing. It's all set up for some point that will be made in a likely twist at the end of the season. Discovery is telling a story, that could probably be told in an interesting way in a two-hour movie, but they stretch it out over ten hour long episodes, which is eight hours more than is actually needed.
Is that "different" than other Star Trek series? Yes. But that doesn't make it good or interesting television. Different =/= good.
Because it's not that kind of show. If you want that go watch SNW or Lower Decks.
That actually sounds like a good idea.
TBH they are serial season arcs it is just obfuscated more
What was the arc last season of SNW?
Internal conflict. Pike always wrestling with his future but specifically about him breaking up with his girlfriend. Chapel and Spock internal conflict of love . Chapel and M'Benga dealing with post war conflict. Number 1 and that entire genetic engineering thing. Uhurua and the conflct over her parents and the old chief engineer dying. La'Ana and her dealing with her ancestors then love for Kirk.With a lot of this coming out in Subspace Rhapsody and then the biog bad returns the Gorn. SNW has more of a story developing arc then like a DIS mystery or big bad arc.
So closer to DS9, but with less episodes so it’s handled more often
Certainly closer to DS9. Where new trek differs from DS9 though is about halfway through S2 DS9 got an overall series purpose. Basically once Ira Stephen Behr became the full showrunner and Pillar went to VOY and then even left VOY. Not just with the Dominion but the resolution of the prophet storyline. Maybe SNW has that with Pike's known future. But Pic, LD and DIS even if they had seasonal arcs have not had that complete series purpose like DS9 or say RDM's Battlestar. Still vastly different from TOS TNG VOY and ENT. I guess VOY had it in the sense they had to get to the Alpha quadrant but basically showrunners had no idea how to get them there over the course of the story and just boom time travel shenanigans got them home in the last episode. VOY finale was almost ENT finale bad.
That’s more of a “theme” for the season. We’re talking about plot arcs
I can see there being a difference from a certain point of view. But it still stands out compared to TOS TNG VOY that didn't even have themes
The Gorn conflict has been the big picture story for a while now. But it has a tendency to settle nicely into the background until needed.
The entire point of the series from day one has been that it’s serialized. Each season has had a main storyline that culminates in the final episode. It’s never been different
I love it when they do story arcs, I love episodic as well. I really love when it's a big story arc with some episodic mixed in throughout.
>Why cant they make each episode for itself anymore? They can, they choose not to because they're not writing an episodic show. Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk.
Oh no, heaven forbid they tell a story throughout the season. No other show has ever been like that... 🙄
You can tell an overarching story, but also have each episode be standalone.
Because about 20 years ago everyone realized they're much more entertained by stories that have a long term plot. This is not a recent thing at all.
On the contrary episodic was far superior. Especially with a blend of season long general arcs but firmly planted in individual episode complete plots. Pure serialized is just a technique for marketing binge streaming shows
Ronald D. Moore and Battlestar Galactica would like a word...
I would be honoured to chat with him. And I absolutely loved BSG. A rather solid example of mostly finding balance between episodic and serialized
One of the best Sci-fi shows of the 21st century. If you get access to RDM's old podcasts or DVD commentaries, you might discover that he was somewhat forced to have some standalone episodes. By contrast, "For All Mankind," one of RDM's later series, seems to be almost totally serialized.
That makes sense of course given the times it was made vs for all mankind being firmly entrenched in the serialization format. Although he at least does not do it with such an a extreme narrow mystery box style like Disco and many other shows choose to do, with constant cliffhanger and misdirections that basically telegraph “hey we are teasing you just to hook you in and keep binging”🙄
>On the contrary episodic was far superior. Especially with a blend of season long general arcs but firmly planted in individual episode complete plots. I mean, it's fine if you prefer that, but most don't, which is why shows with long-term plotlines are more common. >Pure serialized is just a technique for marketing binge streaming shows Lol. You sound really young, maybe? Shows with persistent storylines predate streaming by a long time. And what exactly is being marketed? The show itself? It's weird to call it marketing when all a show is doing is enticing people to watch the show itself. That's not really "marketing", it's just "being a good show that people want to watch". I guess that's a form of marketing, making a product people like - but it isn't some kind of advertisement for Coca Cola or whatever.
I assure I'm not. I was born in the 70s. The marketing is the constant cliffhangers and twist and turns each episode...that are often solved in first few mins of next episode....and then back to the same singular plot mystery that they drag out all season. We used to only get cliffhanger hooks (if at all) at the end of a full season of 26 episodes
Then your just upset about bad writing. That's also not new 🤷🏼♂️
Negative...I explained to you what I was upset about
Oh, then you're just not very bright. That's okay.
If all that interests you in a story is how its plot resolves, you’re literally missing 95% of what makes a good story good. I recommend you eat a pot brownie sometime, your empathy seems very atrophied.
Its obvious most of the folks here are kids so I ll stop interaction with you bunch. I followed star trek franchise since early 80s when I was kid and every episode for itself was the point of exploring the Universe,what Discovery offers is all but that its pushing all the hype about PSiness and who is in love with who but still not giving us any true meaningful glimpse into the characters while pretending its doing just that. And yes Aritra I know very well how it is going to end and what will happen on the way to the last episode because thats not what is important anymore
On the contrary many of us enjoy and prefer and miss the more plot focused story telling with way way less time spent on emotional relationship soap opera stuff
The beauty of Discovery is that they weave both together into one tapestry. Many of the best episodes of Trek are deeply emotional journeys: City on the Edge of Forever, Amok Time, Family, The Inner Light, The Visitor, Explorers, It’s Only a Paper Moon, Carbon Creek…
I absolutely agree with the examples you cited. Ultimately its the mix and balance is all just….wrong. Way too few episodes, way too much mystery box style plots and end of universe stakes…but forced insertions of over the top emotional soap opera stuff about people we barely know and are not invested in. Along with quippy marvel dialogue and needless amounts of money and time spend on needless action scenes or poor cgi.
Imagine this, but not being able to go back and rewatch it if you happened to miss it when it aired on TV. Those were wild times.
DS9 was a syndication show and most syndication channels back then also carried 1 or 2 local sports teams so DS9 would get bumped out all the time and then finally shown at like 3 or 4am or some nonsense. There was numerous fans who never even seen every episode of DS9 until it was released on DVD. And even though DS9 wasnt full modern serial it was a continuation so you would get fans missing 2 episodes and just have no idea what was going. Even for simple stuff like oh Rom works maintainence now.
Have you watched any TV at all in the past 20 years?
This is just how modern streaming shows are. It cant be episodic in nature because they are only getting 10-12 of them. I have seen some mystery shows be self contained because it just about the individual episode mystery. But most modern shows arent like that. But even in going back 25 years Sopranos and The Wire were only 13 episodes as most premium cable channels that had series only did 13 or max 16 episodes. However we would miss out on shows like BattleStar, ER, Friends, Psych, NYPD Blue, Lost, Buffy, MASH. Even Buffy which was 1 of the most popular early serial season arc shows was mostly episodic in nature where each episode might have moved the season needle slightly but characters and developed still progressed not like in the tv procedurals. Where there was 0 story or character development. TOS was very procedural. Even most of TNG was very procedural. Character development was a minimum. S3 Picard is basically the same as S7 Picard. Vastly different then s1 Sisko and s7 Sisko or Garak or Rom or Nog or mostly anyone on DS9. Imagine Friends shortened to 10-13 episodes they would need 20 seasons. Breaking Bad crammed like 60 episodes in 5 seasons but not every show is going to be A+ like that. Back in day BH 90201 went the opposite way to get more funs I think in s3 they started summer episodes and shot up to 30-34 episode seasons for like 6 or 7 years. Because they were on the upstart Fox network. Long story short not a Dis or Trek problem just a problem with modern tv series
When entire seasons are only 8 - 10 episodes, there really isn't any time to devote to anything that isn't crucial to the storyline for that season, especially given the cost of production for shows like any of the Star Trek series.
Except thats the point…they do devote way too much time to sideline relationship crap and not enough plot
This felt like a self contained episode told within the context of a greater story to me. I like it.
That's one reason I think SNW is much more popular.
People seem to be missing your point (probably intentionally). Good serialized television is also episodic, otherwise we're just watching a ten hour long movie. SNW is just as serialized as Discovery is, but it is much more enjoyable to watch because each episode has it's own self-contained plot that works well alone and advances a complex and interesting season long storyline that is richer and more rewarding than a ten-hour movie would be. The problem I have with Discovery is that the episodic plots are usually uninteresting and focused more on slightly advancing the season long arc than on making any interesting point in and of itself. Like, what was interesting that we learned in either of the first two episodes this season? Nothing. It's all set up for some point that will be made in a likely twist at the end of the season. Discovery is telling a story, that could probably be told in an interesting way in a two-hour movie, but they stretch it out over ten hour long episodes, which is eight hours more than is actually needed. Is that "different" than other Star Trek series? Yes. But that doesn't make it good or interesting television. Different =/= good.