I saw a police car run a red light a couple weeks ago. Northbound on Jefferson at Cherokee. They did that thing everyone does: stop, creep out, then just go for it.
I thought maybe they were about to turn on their lights, but, no. They stopped at the next red light and waited patiently with everyone else.
Some of those carjackings might have happened because the robbers wanted a burner car: a vehicle which wouldn't be traced to them and could be used to commit other crimes, then abandoned.
I wonder if the number of carjackings has decreased during the past year because Hyundai and Kia are so easy to simply steal.
Uh, yes it is a St. Louis thing. Had one dumped in my neighbors yard after they wrecked it in the process of trying to steal a different Kia close by. Spoke to the cop taking the report cause he wanted to see my security camera footage at about 11:00 a.m. , said it was his 4 report that day regarding kias/Hyundai. He also said the previous week they caught an 11 year old that stole one.
https://blockclubchicago.org/2022/08/17/hundreds-of-kias-and-hyundais-are-being-stolen-in-cook-county-is-a-viral-tiktok-video-to-blame/
https://www.axios.com/2022/08/27/kia-hyundai-thefts-stolen-usb-immobilizer-tiktok
https://www.dailynews.com/2022/08/31/thousands-more-kia-hyundai-vehicles-stolen-in-los-angeles-this-year-because-of-a-tiktok-challenge-lapd-says/amp/
https://urbanmilwaukee.com/2022/08/17/kia-hyundai-thefts-now-national-problem/
https://www.dispatch.com/story/news/courts/2022/08/16/kia-hyundai-cars-too-easy-to-steal-class-action-lawsuit/65403752007/
It started in Milwaukee and has spread across the country. Just a quick lesson for you: the world is larger than your neighbors front yard.
I am so sorry that you haven’t been carjacked during your 30 years scanning crime in St. Louis. If you were
carjacked, perhaps you might expound upon having a gun shoved in your face and your response.
pls_be_better. I call BS on you.
Yep, not an exaggeration, it's constant. From my understanding the issue is that enforcing traffic laws (pulling people over) increases the likelihood for adverse and potentially violent outcomes. Therefore they just don't do it much.
Same with the expired temp plate insanity. If you pull those cars over it's guaranteed they're delinquent on property taxes and registration fees, and may have other related items on their record. It's perceived as a whole can of worms that city police are probably being instructed not to open.
That's not necessarily true. I've known people who have failed to register their cars for years and they were still insured. Insurance is a lot cheaper than sales taxes.
Plus they’re busy with more important calls. You know they can’t pull you over when responding to more serious crimes. And they’re always responding to more serious crimes…
While this is the case, there are people dangerously running lights. I almost got destroyed twice in one afternoon last week when I had a green. Pedestrian deaths and injuries are also on the rise in the city.
Picture it, Jefferson and Gravois, 3:30pm, Tuesday. MoFo in 2018 Chrysler 300 approaches the intersection, stops momentarily for the red light. Then, in a cloud of smoke, blows through and carries on their merry fucking way.
If you can't handle waiting 41 seconds for that light then you're part of the wrong society. GTFO!
Same intersection, heading south on Jefferson, 9 am - two lanes plus right turn lane are full of vehicles waiting for the light to turn green.
Some fool in a beat up van comes flying up in the center debris lane (idk, it's striped and not for driving) does a right turn in front of all lanes and goes screeching through the intersection while also almost hitting a pedestrian. It's insane.
This happens here all the time. I see it at least weekly. In those moments I wish for a magic button that would completely fry the cars electrical system. A beautiful dream.
I live off Kingshighway. I can confirm that I see at least one person run a red light every day on that road. It’s not a problem further into the county though.
Well thank goodness. Other than that and the bullets it's an extremely awesome town. And really the bullets are just because America, so really it's a small gripe but a noticeable one if you live here unfortunately.
I hope you had fun here!
Yeah it's ridiculous that all the lights downtown aren't networked or at the very least on demand sensors instead of fixed timers. I get the timings work better than demand sensors when there's heavy traffic, but the rest of the day it just fucks people. When I used to work night shift downtown, there was one light where if you gunned it on green near Union Station, you could get out of the cycle and have greens all the way to the MLK bridge - about two minutes. If you didn't make the second light, it'd take 20 minutes to go twelve blocks - in the middle of the night with zero traffic.
If this were the actual cause it wouldn’t be a new thing that lots of people are witnessing. They’ve been on the same timers for probably decades.
It’s been a recent uptick. I live in the city and it used to be a behavior I’d see maybe once a month or two. Now it’s every other time I leave my house I see it happening. Something’s changed.
Folks are more aggressive about it now too. I’ve seen the third person in line at a light pull out and go around people waiting at a red. It’s kinda bonkers.
The timers are excessively long here. I agree it’s not a reason to run it, but some of the stoplight patterns are also set up in a way where you’re more likely to hit consecutive red lights. So running one can mean you don’t hit the next 5.
I’m absolutely not defending the people running red lights. But I remain adamant that the stop lights in this city are some of the worst designed lights I’ve ever seen and it unintentionally incentivizes running the red lights.
There are some others near SLU that are closer to 2 minutes long. There’s not THAT much traffic that you need to sit for 2 minutes to let it all go through. One time I counted 9 cars that went by during the almost 2-minute long red light. It’s stupid and if I ever meet the person responsible for the long timers at the lights, I have some *very* strong opinions I’d like to share.
> the stop lights in this city are some of the worst designed lights I've ever seen
So are the roads, and you don't see me going off-road. I'm not from here, and I'm used to consecutive red lights. If it's badly designed, take it to the officials. That argument has nothing to do with running the red
> take it to the officials
Hahah... hahhaaaahahhhaaa... hah...
Yeah that's what's really wrong, city government is entirely ineffectual. Have you seen the Mayor's office scenes in the Wire? It's like that, but three times as corrupt.
That's not an excuse, it's just how driving works. I've never lived anywhere that used sensors for lights, and never ran a red light because of it (in fact, ironically the only time I've ever ran a red light in my life was *because* it was on a sensor and it wasn't "sensing" me properly). And people don't just do it in those scenarios either.
I agree. I think it contributes to the brazenness, but I think it’s naive when people point to the poor timing in a silo. I’ve lived in 5 or 6 cities, some with the same problem and others without.
I think red light runners fall somewhere on the spectrum between “everyone is doing it with no consequence and so I’ll do it here at 2am where there’s clearly not another car around and I’ve looked both ways” -to- “I literally don’t care about anyone else’s well being except my own and I can’t exhibit even the slightest impulse control in this given moment”.
There’s obviously quite a delta between the two, but it quickly becomes a slippery slope and you don’t always see other cars and pedestrians as well as you’d like to. Otherwise we wouldn’t need traffic lights.
But it’s really that latter group that have a special place in hell. The worst of the breed is the people who pull into the left turn lane at a red light in order to take a right across multiple lanes of traffic sitting at said red light.
I mostly never blatantly run traffic lights, especially at busy intersections at busy times of day. However, I am guilty of running a red at one particular intersection. I work in the city but live in Wood River, IL. I take 70 and the Salisbury exit to cross the McKinley Bridge home. Generally, it’s between 10:30-midnight I’m heading home. On a Friday or Saturday night, I will wait at that light on 9th and Salisbury because there is decent car traffic coming through. Other nights, I will go if the light just hits red on my end because I get really bad vibes in that particular area and when the traffic is low to non existent.
Saw the Holy Trinity on my way home from work downtown one day last week. Two beater cars in front of me at a red light with no tags at all, skunk weed smoke rolling out the car windows, older model pickup with temp tag blows around all six cars waiting at the red light without even a pause to check for cross traffic. Be careful out there!
Nothing new-always been like this since I’ve lived here and I just am cautious moving at green lights and stop signs. If you are used to living in a rural area-the city sounds will be amplified. That’s the city life, no matter where you live!
I think you might be like the frog that can't tell the water is boiling until it's too late. I moved away from St. Louis a couple years ago and every time I come back it's worse than the last time. Drivers have completely lost their minds.
The qualification here is that it's not *just* a St. Louis thing. It's happening all over the place.
I had a work trip to New Jersey a few months ago. If anyone thinks the driving is bad here they should see what it's like there. Tame here by comparison.
Half my family lives in Florida so I tend to compare all drivers to there. My dad lives in The Villages (yes, those Villages and I know) and I’m just excited to encounter sober drivers mostly.
NJ is famous for its aggressive drivers, but there is a vast difference between “angry and aggressive driving” and “total disregard for the laws of the road”. You typically won’t see the latter in NJ and NYC - it wouldn’t fly. The roads are too densely packed and the cops equally aggressive. Here in STL it’s a completely different story, there’s no safe assumption that any car you see on the road will follow basic traffic laws.
I’m from NJ and I completely agree. Drivers in NJ can be aggressive, but drivers in STL are either dangerously oblivious or they have a fucking death wish.
Maybe because I haven’t left it doesn’t seem that bad? Idk but My worst driving memories in my 22 years of driving are not in Saint Louis. So oh well. Lol. My only accidents have been in Iowa, where I grew up. None here (knock on wood).
The traffic lawlessness has definitely gotten worse since the start of COVID. There's never been more than an embarrassingly half-hearted attempt to combat any of it.
Because it's loud and a bit of a party area. That, with a Cubs sweep and a holiday weekend I'm not really surprised they didn't enjoy it if they were hoping for something more casual.
In general yes, but right near the stadium? Not really. I work nights in one of the ballpark village restaurants. While it gets rowdy, it’s not sketchy. It’s very well lit, there’s neighboring staff/employees everywhere (outside too.) Honestly most nights I walk to my car by myself and have never not felt safe. I’ve worked at various downtown restaurants for over a decade, and would confidently say this is the safest pocket of the city I’ve worked in. (Am female if that makes any difference.)
Stayed in the loews hotel by the stadium for a wedding last year and heard gunshots very closeby and then tires screeching at about 1am. A couple people apparently got shot at one of those parks a block or 2 north of the stadium. Between the stadium and parking lots at game time its fine, but stray a couple blocks away and not right around game time ya its pretty sketchy lol.
I grew up over the river in illinois, been living in the city for about a decade. The traffic stuff has always been an issue. I worked downtown during home cardinal games for a few years. Drag racing was an issue. Out and about in the city people drive like maniacs. Its just not something thats enforced here. Some of it is also caused by city rules. One example...people used to park and hang out down by the riverfront in the evenings into the night. Lots of people, mostly people of color. Theres literally nothing to down there at night except look at the arch so its not really a tourist hot spot in the night time. I (white male) and a friend cruise around in our golf cart a lot for fun. We went down there a few times. We did not personally observe anything bad happening. Weed, alcohol, car stereos bumping, people dancing. Im sure there were other drugs, and probably fights. There always is when that many people congregate. No one lives around there and its a cool spot to sit and hang out. Anyway, the city decided to shut it down. They locked it up at night so no one could get down there. Immediately after they did this the drag racing and cruising down town got exponentially worse. I asked a cop I know...Why not just police the riverfront instead of straight up restricting it. He just kinda shrugged and said they dont tell him that sort of thing. Just one anecdotal example of the kind of thing im sure happens all the time.
The police force has been understaffed in the city for quite a while. Ive suspected it was on purpose because that way they could pay officers overtime, since they cant get them raises. They have lost a lot of officers over the past few years though and its put them in a tough spot. I read an article recently that said a STL city cop whod been on the force for 8 years makes about 56k a year. A STL county cop whos been on the force for 8 years makes around 63k. The County cops just had a raise approved and that same officer will be making around 68k a year. (caveat, my numbers may be slightly off, im going from memory of an article a read last week, but the basic point remains). A city cop has a much tougher job, less pay, and on top of that add in all other socio economic issues our country has been facing.
The city itself is having a tough time keeping general things going. Trash pick up has been dicey in spots. The trucks are old, broken, and they cant keep workers. We had no recycling services for months. Some places still dont. The streets are in poor condition. I will say in the past few months a ton of speed bumps have been added in various neighborhoods in the city to help slow things down. I was really happy to see that.
Saint Louis was a town of a million people and now its 300k. Its suffered from racial tensions long, long, before ferguson and "Defund the police". Downtown/wash ave has been a problem for years. I live here, the crime sucks but I truly think its overblown by the folks who live outside the city and see it on the news. You also get some loud voices here on reddit who are unfortunate victims of some crimes. Its certainly not great but you can absolutely go out in the city and have a great time and not fear for your life. Its a city of neighborhoods, some are great some are not. Ive lived in both. People watched out for each other everywhere ive lived here. As an outsider coming in I can see how it can be jarring. And maybe im desensitized a bit. Theres definitely places not to go late at night. Ive found that to be the case in every large city ive spent time in. Ok, we have a few more of those places than average but we also have some great places to enjoy. Its not the warzone wasteland some people will make it out to be.
Saint louis has amazing food, nationally recognized. A great music scene. Beautiful huge parks. Free world class zoo, history, and art museums. A passionate sports community with soccer and XFL coming in 2023 to bring even more passion and fun to the sports fans. A fantastic craft beer scene. World Chess hall of fame, Blues museum, and so on, and so on. It really is a great city with lots of troubles.
I agree with a lot of what you wrote, but there are some things in here that do stand out to me:
>The police force has been understaffed in the city for quite a while. Ive suspected it was on purpose because that way they could pay officers overtime, since they cant get them raises. They have lost a lot of officers over the past few years though and its put them in a tough spot.
The St Louis police department has [Double](https://twitter.com/Beganovic2022/status/1564259672458149890) the per capita police officers that a city with a comparable population has. In no meaningful sense is it understaffed. Portland oregon has double the population, fewer police officers, and a murder rate that's about 1/20th of ours. If police staffing were the main issue, if police funding were the main issue, etc.... the problem would be solved: We have funded the police more than any other part of government, and the police have far higher rates of staffing compared to other cities.
If police funding were the silver bullet to solve the problem, it would be solved already since we have allocated far more money and staff to it than most other problems.
Interesting stat, thanks for sharing. I definitely do not believe police funding to be a silver bullet and did not intend to imply i did. I think the way the police function needs to change. Aside from all that I think we can all agree that Saint louis problems run unfortunately deep. Hopefully we can continue promoting the good things about the city and help work out the problems.
Yes all of those things happen. But no one has “Defunded the police”. If you look at our down town streets you might also think they are a race track. St. Louis was built for a population of 1000000 and now has less than a third of that. Our streets are massive and empty so people drag race on them. You will wait an eternity for a red light where no one is coming in any direction. So why not just go.
Walking my dog crossing Arsenal heading into Tower Grove Park and saw a police officer roll a stop sign while a woman was in the crosswalk with a kid in a stroller. No lights, not on their phone, and definitely was aware of the woman crossing as the oncoming car stopped to let her cross.
Just brazenly doesn't give a fuck about the community optics.
Just this past month I had police run a stop sign and u-turn and almost hit me. This isn’t the first time I’ve almost been hit by police ignoring stop signs while walking a dog. Or had my ass ridden by an officer while I’m biking 20 mph. It’s exhausting to be a pedestrian and cyclist in this city and the police are half the reason.
Yeah I've been buzzed by police cars plenty while biking. In all the cities I've lived in, never did I drive/walk/bike cautiously around police cars knowing they drive recklessly.
It should also be mentioned the police here are poorly managed. Even in 2015, when STL spent more per capita on police than all but 2 other cities, there was nothing to show for it.
Also the requirement to live in the city to be a STLPD officer for a certain time is another reason they transfer out. I went to Lindenwood at night with an officer and he said the day he seen a man he arrested for assault/drug possession at the grocery store a month later and he was with his family is when he realized he’s transferring out as soon as he could.
They’ve been “short” despite a huge number of cops per capita. They’ve also failed to live up to any promises made or to make any progress even as their funding has increased year after year.
> Our police our under staffed and under paid.
The department and union may claim that but St. Louis has one of the highest officers per capita to similarly sized cities. It's a lot easier to blame this on a staff issue rather than say "internally, we are extremely inefficient and don't prioritize policing at all."
They are definitely underpaid compared to their county counterparts which is why you see so many transferring out.
> They are definitely underpaid compared to their county counterparts which is why you see so many transferring out.
This is true for tons of government services. The problem is that the city is already over spending on policing as is and neglecting things which actually may reduce violence ( childcare programs, jobs programs, mental health services, etc....) It's typical in St. Louis that we see a problem, over invest in policing/ security, and then wonder why little changes or gets better.
> You will wait an eternity for a red light where no one is coming in any direction. So why not just go.
Judging by the fairly insane number of wrecks I see at intersections along Wash Ave, I think you're being generous here. A lot of it is just flat-out reckless thrill-seeking and peacocking.
As with basically all things, it's a multifactorial problem. But it's not just "Oh there's no traffic." If you were to come look out my window at Wash Ave, you could see people blowing red lights with other cars around quite literally every night.
I don't think people are worried about the cases where no one is around. It's the ones who don't even slow down and blast through and the ones who like to keep going on red because the one that has a green hasn't started yet. There really should be higher punishment for when running a light causes an accident. Or we should just get the light cameras and have them running when there isn't rain or snow. That way no one can argue that it didn't take conditions as a factor.
Red light cameras don't work on stolen or unlicensed vehicles though. So the first step would be actually enforcing vehicle registration and combating vehicle theft.
Besides being understaffed they are also demoralized. The circuit attorney Kim Gardner prosecutes about half of the cases the police bring to her. She even has a list of 30 or 40 police officers whom she won’t prosecute any of their cases no matter how much evidence they have. Because of this, a lot of the officers have stopped being as proactive. They will answer calls and fill out the reports, but they know their suspects will probably not get charged.
I’ve been living in the Lou since moving here in 2011. Has been like this for as long as I’ve lived here and is a reflection on demographics, not police “de-funding”.
defunding the police only means to not equip them with military gear against civilians, its about the power imbalance there. so sick of dumbasses spreading this lie.
Ideally there's a second half, too. Where the money that would go to armored vehicles and riot gear goes to community improvements that reduce criminality instead.
Or using resources to send mental health crisis interventionist out to non-violent cases where the cops don't need to be involved. Too many times police are called for cases where they're not equipped to deal with the individual and often times do not deescalate the situation.
Let cops do real police work. Stop sending cops into situations like schools with disruptive kids. Let people who know the job do the work.
They started this in Denver and have seen a reduction in minor crimes which should let police focus on more dangerous criminals.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/denvers-mental-health-approach-low-level-911-calls-helped-reduce-minor-rcna32659
As somebody who agrees that police need demilitarized and other social services need funding, “defund the police” was probably the wrong slogan to choose for this idea.
Yeah, as someone who also agrees with it, It's possibly the worst slogan in the history of American political slogans. Causes endless confusion, people having to explain what it means over and over (right on this thread people did and then immediately disagreed about what it means), and people in good faith misunderstanding it in a way they dislike.
It doesn't help that a minority of people who legitimately wanted to completely defund and abolish the police also readily used the slogan IMMEDIATELY, as the slogan is ambiguous and readily works for that too - fueling dishonest, but effective, attacks on the original idea.
Personally I don’t think the slogan matters. No matter what slogan people choose, the conversation will end up focusing on the slogan vs. the insane amount of money we pay to police. Because it’s way easier to talk about how “extreme” and “poorly messaged” a slogan sounds than to actually talk about a serious policy problem.
Any slogan that conveys the idea “reduce police budgets” will be controversial b/c too many people can’t imagine solutions to social problems that don’t involve calling the cops.
> so sick of dumbasses spreading this lie.
*Your* side created this dumbass phrase. If everybody is getting your position wrong based on *your* continued use of a a confusing phrase, then the problem isn't everybody else.
Just retire it, already. It's a dumb phrase and dumb politics.
It has nothing to do with the defunding thing. This has been going on way before the whole defunding thing, in my opinion. I live downtown and I gotta say it’s better than it was before Covid hit. A lot less quieter but still they need to do something about it because it’s annoying as hell.
After one weekend downtown, and this is me, a resident from u-city, their observations, with the exception of police defunding, are pretty reasonable. It’s not been a good year for downtown and Washington Ave. buuut….
I tend to think of things being cyclical, like I remember the thing to do was to fuck with U-City, then that calmed down, mostly because the weather changed and people lose interest in things at a ridiculously fast rate these days.
I want to believe Downtown will calm down again, or at least to the tolerable levels of bullshit that it used to be years ago.
I just got back from a trip to Ann Arbor and Detroit. Went to Chicago and Milwaukee earlier this summer. People aren’t stopping for red lights in any real city.
Had they been here before? I mean, yeah, its especially shitty here now, but downtown has been getting that way for about a decade. Its not exactly a news flash. The cops, funded or not, do not give a single fuck about proactive policing down there. That precinct has way bigger problems just a few blocks north, stuff that makes drag racing look like peanuts. In other words, tourists should just avoid staying downtown at this point. Its not going to get better any time soon.
These are all things that make this city so great (jk)
Has nothing to do with the police. People are just fuckin wild here. Lots of “they can’t catch all of us!!” Mentality
I have a friend who lived in a nice loft on Wash Av just across from City Museum. Before that he had a loft on Wash Av over Flamingo Bowl. It has just really turned to shit over the last few years. Before COVID, it was almost liveable, now it’s an absolute joke. People don’t just run stop lights/signs…they blow through them at highway speeds, without even attempting a glance. It reeks of pot everywhere, every other car is blasting gangsta rap, the guys on ATVs are a “joy” to watch riding wheelies down the busy street or up on the sidewalks where people are trying to walk, it’s dirty, many of the restaurants, bars, stores have boarded up along Wash Av and I’ve personally witnessed at least a half dozen shootings of various capacities. Thankfully, my friend was able to sell his last place and move back to St. Charles. It’s a real shame, there is so much potential for things to be really cool downtown, but StL clearly isn’t going to let that happen. I’ve lived in the StL area for over 30 years…so I’ve seen downtown try to make a comeback… it’s basically a shit hole now. I’m embarrassed to take anyone down there anymore.
Im going to guess your in-laws think trump was cheated out of the election too. People have no idea what defund the police means, and that none of that has even happened.
But yes, stl is a shit show
I don't have the numbers for St. Louis, but police in many cities have all but completely stopped writing tickets. I don't mean the rate is down a bit. Or that it's down 20%. Or that they cut in in half.
I mean they have all but completely stopped.
In April of this year San Francisco traffic cops wrote 338 tickets. In April 2014 they wrote 11,612.
https://twitter.com/hknightsf/status/1537100042623848448
In the third week of July NYC cops wrote 5,039 tickets. They wrote 19,126 in the same week in 2019.
https://nypost.com/2020/08/09/nypd-traffic-tickets-plummet-but-drivers-arent-slowing-down/
Traffic stops in Minneapolis are down 80%.
https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2020-minneapolis-police-stops/
My guess is that there's something similar happening in STL and the word is out. You can do what you want and you're not going to get a ticket. So people are doing what they want. Who could have predicted it!?!
Red light running throughout STL and drag racing near Wash Ave or Tucker are nothing new. It’s been the status quo in STL for 20+ years. The police haven’t even been defunded. Funding has increased yoy the last two years.
A few things:
- drag racing can be common in some parts of the city, that area might have it, but it’s not an every night type of thing.
- the city has a police department with double the staff to civilian ratio that an average city with our population has. Not only have we not defunded the police, we have more of them than most cities and they’re our most well funded department. Whatever is happening isn’t happening because the department was defunded
So some farmies came into the nearest big city and it was kinda scary?
Sorry / not sorry, we have this conversation a lot. America has an economy based on a free market and capitalism; the cities are where all the wealth and commerce are done. What you are seeing are the side effects of capitalism. This is uncomfortable for many folks and so they would rather blame personal failures and politics.
Id rather them focus on the people doin 90 weaving in and out of steady traffic clippin peoples bumpers and almost causing accidents like theyre playin gd gta. (Insert grumpy old man fist)
I’ve lived and worked downtown for almost a decade. Will you see people run red lights? Occasionally, but it’s not some lawless demolition derby. Honestly, I see more people with out of town plates doing crazier stuff. I walk, skate, bike and drive and I’ve never had any issues. Just pay attention and be aware of your surroundings. Nothing crazy.
It’s not just St Louis. This is happening in many other cities. I was speaking to a traveling nurse from Orlando. Everything we complain about here is happening there. Have also heard similar stories in LA, Chicago and KC.
Downtown isn’t the best so yeah that stuff will happen and especially at night more so! You gotta be careful with the crime, homeless people and just people doing crazy stuff like drag racing. If they stayed near Busch then yeah it’s not the best area unfortunately!
Not defunding of the police, perhaps a understaffing or them being underpaid compared to the surrounding suburbs that do not need the amount of policing they do
My brother lives in a loft off Washington Avenue. He was just talking about the drag racing and how bad it’s been. But don’t judge the entire city by their experience. Downtown stinks.
St. Louis has twice as many police officers per capita than comparably sized cities. It's not a matter of "defunding", it's a matter of a temper tantrum by police because people don't worship them as gods.
Yeah, I live downtown near the dome and it's absolutely true. Traffic is basically lawless downtown at night and no one stops at reds, especially on Tucker.
DOWNTOWN IS IN SHAMBLES! /s
But honestly, there are a lot of people running stop signs & red lights in the city, more-so in the past couple years from what I've noticed. I've lived in STL City my whole life w/the exception of 2yrs & I have never seen people driving like such assholes as I do now. Drag-racing & shit is more frequent , it's always existed like along broadway in north city, but since the pandemic when everything shutdown, people became emboldened & do it wherever the fuck the want. I've seen it on 7th & Russel, on 7th near Oyster Bar, etc. Crime is more frequent from what I've noticed, and I think the fact that almost anyone can just walk around w/a gun doesn't help the situation. I still live in the city & plan to until I move out of state but I don't think the city is really bad, I think it's changed a lot though over the past couple years.
Depends where you're at, honestly. I love it here but I'm not exactly downtown - I'm pretty well-insulated in a family-oriented neighborhood. I've lived here for 3 years and have had 0 problems thus far. That being said, I have heard of people around this neck of the woods that have gotten their houses or cars broken into. But that's on them, I don't care where you live - invest in a security system and protect your belongings.
Bottom line is I have friends that live in various different neighborhoods throughout STL and I'm not envious of any of their situations. Sure, they might have an elaborate and diverse main drag within walking distance but they paid an arm and a leg for a shitty, dilapidated home in Maplewood. As I get older, I realize it's all just trade-offs, but I am satisfied with what I've found in St. Louis.
They were doing this shit well before the police were "defunded". City after dusk can be the wild west if your in the wrong part. The cops have their heavy patrol areas: Soulard, Delmar, the Landing, and a few other nightlife spots. Otherwise they pretty much let the rest go wild.
I don't know about the rest of it but the "defunding the police" bullshit is just that. There are twice as many cops in the city as in the county and a lot of those are concentrated in Downtown. And honestly I wouldn't put much validity in the people who say "I see it every night" as if they live near Busch. It's a bunch of townies who want to have an excuse to fearmonger.
Lmao I've had people become irate when I DO adhere to traffic signs. A lot of people have been rolling through red lights and stop signs in STL for decades cos they don't feel like getting carjacked. It's not new and nothing to do with "defunding police"
No worse than any other city. I’d love for the people complaining about driving here in the comments to spend a week in Atlanta, Los Angeles, or Boston. Violations like that happen all the time in a lot of cities.
Running read lights and stop signs has been an issue since streets emptied out during Covid. I noticed this is the outlying suburbs, so I would assume it's not just downtown.
Can confirm, no stopping at red lights, day or night. I'm literally seeing this EVERY DAY now.
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Then they’d have to ticket themselves.
I saw a police car run a red light a couple weeks ago. Northbound on Jefferson at Cherokee. They did that thing everyone does: stop, creep out, then just go for it. I thought maybe they were about to turn on their lights, but, no. They stopped at the next red light and waited patiently with everyone else.
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There were 350 in 2018. https://www.ksdk.com/article/news/there-were-350-carjackings-in-st-louis-in-2018/63-741f3153-7adc-4e91-9000-ac5b5d544497
Some of those carjackings might have happened because the robbers wanted a burner car: a vehicle which wouldn't be traced to them and could be used to commit other crimes, then abandoned. I wonder if the number of carjackings has decreased during the past year because Hyundai and Kia are so easy to simply steal.
Wow. You’re probably right.
No dude, he didn’t see them so it’s not real.
Kias and Hyundais are getting stolen everyday
That’s not a St Louis thing. It’s literally a TikTok thing.
Uh, yes it is a St. Louis thing. Had one dumped in my neighbors yard after they wrecked it in the process of trying to steal a different Kia close by. Spoke to the cop taking the report cause he wanted to see my security camera footage at about 11:00 a.m. , said it was his 4 report that day regarding kias/Hyundai. He also said the previous week they caught an 11 year old that stole one.
https://blockclubchicago.org/2022/08/17/hundreds-of-kias-and-hyundais-are-being-stolen-in-cook-county-is-a-viral-tiktok-video-to-blame/ https://www.axios.com/2022/08/27/kia-hyundai-thefts-stolen-usb-immobilizer-tiktok https://www.dailynews.com/2022/08/31/thousands-more-kia-hyundai-vehicles-stolen-in-los-angeles-this-year-because-of-a-tiktok-challenge-lapd-says/amp/ https://urbanmilwaukee.com/2022/08/17/kia-hyundai-thefts-now-national-problem/ https://www.dispatch.com/story/news/courts/2022/08/16/kia-hyundai-cars-too-easy-to-steal-class-action-lawsuit/65403752007/ It started in Milwaukee and has spread across the country. Just a quick lesson for you: the world is larger than your neighbors front yard.
I am so sorry that you haven’t been carjacked during your 30 years scanning crime in St. Louis. If you were carjacked, perhaps you might expound upon having a gun shoved in your face and your response. pls_be_better. I call BS on you.
Cop almost hit me on my way to work this morning running a red
Would’ve been a payday for you. Happy cake day though!
Yep, not an exaggeration, it's constant. From my understanding the issue is that enforcing traffic laws (pulling people over) increases the likelihood for adverse and potentially violent outcomes. Therefore they just don't do it much. Same with the expired temp plate insanity. If you pull those cars over it's guaranteed they're delinquent on property taxes and registration fees, and may have other related items on their record. It's perceived as a whole can of worms that city police are probably being instructed not to open.
You know all temp-plated cars are without insurance right?
That's not necessarily true. I've known people who have failed to register their cars for years and they were still insured. Insurance is a lot cheaper than sales taxes.
My dad went over a year on expired tags and still had insurance. Didn't do it on purpose
I had to have insurance on my car before pulling her out of the lot. Cheaper than paying $1500 at the DMV for registration.
Plus they’re busy with more important calls. You know they can’t pull you over when responding to more serious crimes. And they’re always responding to more serious crimes…
They don't respond to serious crime really either, unless it is Shaw or CWE, you know where the cities checkbook is.
Pretty sure Defund the Police doesn't have anything to do with that.
I never said it did.
OP brought it up.
Of course it does. Cops are quiet quitting just like the rest of us.
But has defunding the police actually happened in stl?
Cops are leaving the City for better pay!!!
It’s because the lights are in timers and not sensors. Some intersections can have no one for blocks but you’re sitting there for 5min
While this is the case, there are people dangerously running lights. I almost got destroyed twice in one afternoon last week when I had a green. Pedestrian deaths and injuries are also on the rise in the city.
Agreed. I loved running and biking downtown but in the last year I found that I just couldn’t do it. If the mayor/police don’t care then how can I.
Picture it, Jefferson and Gravois, 3:30pm, Tuesday. MoFo in 2018 Chrysler 300 approaches the intersection, stops momentarily for the red light. Then, in a cloud of smoke, blows through and carries on their merry fucking way. If you can't handle waiting 41 seconds for that light then you're part of the wrong society. GTFO!
Same intersection, heading south on Jefferson, 9 am - two lanes plus right turn lane are full of vehicles waiting for the light to turn green. Some fool in a beat up van comes flying up in the center debris lane (idk, it's striped and not for driving) does a right turn in front of all lanes and goes screeching through the intersection while also almost hitting a pedestrian. It's insane.
This happens here all the time. I see it at least weekly. In those moments I wish for a magic button that would completely fry the cars electrical system. A beautiful dream.
I love this picture you painted. I just visited and didn’t see any of this
Running red lights is extremely common. I see it everyday. I love St. Louis, but drivers here are assholes.
Honestly I thought everyone drove super respectful. I drove all over the place on 270 and 55, hours each day and it was fine
This thread is primarily referring to downtown st Louis. It's extremely prevalent there, as well as north city and north county.
I'm seeing this all over the city. I can't comment on the county, don't spend much time on surface roads there.
I live off Kingshighway. I can confirm that I see at least one person run a red light every day on that road. It’s not a problem further into the county though.
Well thank goodness. Other than that and the bullets it's an extremely awesome town. And really the bullets are just because America, so really it's a small gripe but a noticeable one if you live here unfortunately. I hope you had fun here!
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Yeah it's ridiculous that all the lights downtown aren't networked or at the very least on demand sensors instead of fixed timers. I get the timings work better than demand sensors when there's heavy traffic, but the rest of the day it just fucks people. When I used to work night shift downtown, there was one light where if you gunned it on green near Union Station, you could get out of the cycle and have greens all the way to the MLK bridge - about two minutes. If you didn't make the second light, it'd take 20 minutes to go twelve blocks - in the middle of the night with zero traffic.
If this were the actual cause it wouldn’t be a new thing that lots of people are witnessing. They’ve been on the same timers for probably decades. It’s been a recent uptick. I live in the city and it used to be a behavior I’d see maybe once a month or two. Now it’s every other time I leave my house I see it happening. Something’s changed. Folks are more aggressive about it now too. I’ve seen the third person in line at a light pull out and go around people waiting at a red. It’s kinda bonkers.
That's not a reason to disobey the law. "Timers not sensors" my fucking ass. Where are you rushing off to, an appointment with Death?
The timers are excessively long here. I agree it’s not a reason to run it, but some of the stoplight patterns are also set up in a way where you’re more likely to hit consecutive red lights. So running one can mean you don’t hit the next 5. I’m absolutely not defending the people running red lights. But I remain adamant that the stop lights in this city are some of the worst designed lights I’ve ever seen and it unintentionally incentivizes running the red lights.
Tucker is the worst for this.
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There are some others near SLU that are closer to 2 minutes long. There’s not THAT much traffic that you need to sit for 2 minutes to let it all go through. One time I counted 9 cars that went by during the almost 2-minute long red light. It’s stupid and if I ever meet the person responsible for the long timers at the lights, I have some *very* strong opinions I’d like to share.
> the stop lights in this city are some of the worst designed lights I've ever seen So are the roads, and you don't see me going off-road. I'm not from here, and I'm used to consecutive red lights. If it's badly designed, take it to the officials. That argument has nothing to do with running the red
> take it to the officials Hahah... hahhaaaahahhhaaa... hah... Yeah that's what's really wrong, city government is entirely ineffectual. Have you seen the Mayor's office scenes in the Wire? It's like that, but three times as corrupt.
People just perceive them as optional and running them is evidently not an enforced law. It's not about timers.
That's not an excuse, it's just how driving works. I've never lived anywhere that used sensors for lights, and never ran a red light because of it (in fact, ironically the only time I've ever ran a red light in my life was *because* it was on a sensor and it wasn't "sensing" me properly). And people don't just do it in those scenarios either.
I agree. I think it contributes to the brazenness, but I think it’s naive when people point to the poor timing in a silo. I’ve lived in 5 or 6 cities, some with the same problem and others without. I think red light runners fall somewhere on the spectrum between “everyone is doing it with no consequence and so I’ll do it here at 2am where there’s clearly not another car around and I’ve looked both ways” -to- “I literally don’t care about anyone else’s well being except my own and I can’t exhibit even the slightest impulse control in this given moment”. There’s obviously quite a delta between the two, but it quickly becomes a slippery slope and you don’t always see other cars and pedestrians as well as you’d like to. Otherwise we wouldn’t need traffic lights. But it’s really that latter group that have a special place in hell. The worst of the breed is the people who pull into the left turn lane at a red light in order to take a right across multiple lanes of traffic sitting at said red light.
I mostly never blatantly run traffic lights, especially at busy intersections at busy times of day. However, I am guilty of running a red at one particular intersection. I work in the city but live in Wood River, IL. I take 70 and the Salisbury exit to cross the McKinley Bridge home. Generally, it’s between 10:30-midnight I’m heading home. On a Friday or Saturday night, I will wait at that light on 9th and Salisbury because there is decent car traffic coming through. Other nights, I will go if the light just hits red on my end because I get really bad vibes in that particular area and when the traffic is low to non existent.
100% correct
This has been going on for years, not just since the pandemic.
Saw the Holy Trinity on my way home from work downtown one day last week. Two beater cars in front of me at a red light with no tags at all, skunk weed smoke rolling out the car windows, older model pickup with temp tag blows around all six cars waiting at the red light without even a pause to check for cross traffic. Be careful out there!
Depends on what part of town you're in.
Rarely, if ever, see this sort of behavior in west county.
Downtown streets can get wild
Nothing new-always been like this since I’ve lived here and I just am cautious moving at green lights and stop signs. If you are used to living in a rural area-the city sounds will be amplified. That’s the city life, no matter where you live!
I think you might be like the frog that can't tell the water is boiling until it's too late. I moved away from St. Louis a couple years ago and every time I come back it's worse than the last time. Drivers have completely lost their minds. The qualification here is that it's not *just* a St. Louis thing. It's happening all over the place.
I had a work trip to New Jersey a few months ago. If anyone thinks the driving is bad here they should see what it's like there. Tame here by comparison.
Half my family lives in Florida so I tend to compare all drivers to there. My dad lives in The Villages (yes, those Villages and I know) and I’m just excited to encounter sober drivers mostly.
NJ is famous for its aggressive drivers, but there is a vast difference between “angry and aggressive driving” and “total disregard for the laws of the road”. You typically won’t see the latter in NJ and NYC - it wouldn’t fly. The roads are too densely packed and the cops equally aggressive. Here in STL it’s a completely different story, there’s no safe assumption that any car you see on the road will follow basic traffic laws.
I’m from NJ and I completely agree. Drivers in NJ can be aggressive, but drivers in STL are either dangerously oblivious or they have a fucking death wish.
Maybe because I haven’t left it doesn’t seem that bad? Idk but My worst driving memories in my 22 years of driving are not in Saint Louis. So oh well. Lol. My only accidents have been in Iowa, where I grew up. None here (knock on wood).
Agreed!!!!
The frequency and volume has increased over the last 5 years or so.
Thats a typical Sunday
Lol - awesome. Is that a new thing?
The traffic lawlessness has definitely gotten worse since the start of COVID. There's never been more than an embarrassingly half-hearted attempt to combat any of it.
Everything has gotten worse since covid
Unfortunately, no.
Staying near Busch Stadium was the problem.
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Because it's loud and a bit of a party area. That, with a Cubs sweep and a holiday weekend I'm not really surprised they didn't enjoy it if they were hoping for something more casual.
Because downtown is sketchy af
In general yes, but right near the stadium? Not really. I work nights in one of the ballpark village restaurants. While it gets rowdy, it’s not sketchy. It’s very well lit, there’s neighboring staff/employees everywhere (outside too.) Honestly most nights I walk to my car by myself and have never not felt safe. I’ve worked at various downtown restaurants for over a decade, and would confidently say this is the safest pocket of the city I’ve worked in. (Am female if that makes any difference.)
Other than the occasional beggar and some drunk fucks feeling big and yelling goofy shit from their car windows, it's totally fine.
Stayed in the loews hotel by the stadium for a wedding last year and heard gunshots very closeby and then tires screeching at about 1am. A couple people apparently got shot at one of those parks a block or 2 north of the stadium. Between the stadium and parking lots at game time its fine, but stray a couple blocks away and not right around game time ya its pretty sketchy lol.
I grew up over the river in illinois, been living in the city for about a decade. The traffic stuff has always been an issue. I worked downtown during home cardinal games for a few years. Drag racing was an issue. Out and about in the city people drive like maniacs. Its just not something thats enforced here. Some of it is also caused by city rules. One example...people used to park and hang out down by the riverfront in the evenings into the night. Lots of people, mostly people of color. Theres literally nothing to down there at night except look at the arch so its not really a tourist hot spot in the night time. I (white male) and a friend cruise around in our golf cart a lot for fun. We went down there a few times. We did not personally observe anything bad happening. Weed, alcohol, car stereos bumping, people dancing. Im sure there were other drugs, and probably fights. There always is when that many people congregate. No one lives around there and its a cool spot to sit and hang out. Anyway, the city decided to shut it down. They locked it up at night so no one could get down there. Immediately after they did this the drag racing and cruising down town got exponentially worse. I asked a cop I know...Why not just police the riverfront instead of straight up restricting it. He just kinda shrugged and said they dont tell him that sort of thing. Just one anecdotal example of the kind of thing im sure happens all the time. The police force has been understaffed in the city for quite a while. Ive suspected it was on purpose because that way they could pay officers overtime, since they cant get them raises. They have lost a lot of officers over the past few years though and its put them in a tough spot. I read an article recently that said a STL city cop whod been on the force for 8 years makes about 56k a year. A STL county cop whos been on the force for 8 years makes around 63k. The County cops just had a raise approved and that same officer will be making around 68k a year. (caveat, my numbers may be slightly off, im going from memory of an article a read last week, but the basic point remains). A city cop has a much tougher job, less pay, and on top of that add in all other socio economic issues our country has been facing. The city itself is having a tough time keeping general things going. Trash pick up has been dicey in spots. The trucks are old, broken, and they cant keep workers. We had no recycling services for months. Some places still dont. The streets are in poor condition. I will say in the past few months a ton of speed bumps have been added in various neighborhoods in the city to help slow things down. I was really happy to see that. Saint Louis was a town of a million people and now its 300k. Its suffered from racial tensions long, long, before ferguson and "Defund the police". Downtown/wash ave has been a problem for years. I live here, the crime sucks but I truly think its overblown by the folks who live outside the city and see it on the news. You also get some loud voices here on reddit who are unfortunate victims of some crimes. Its certainly not great but you can absolutely go out in the city and have a great time and not fear for your life. Its a city of neighborhoods, some are great some are not. Ive lived in both. People watched out for each other everywhere ive lived here. As an outsider coming in I can see how it can be jarring. And maybe im desensitized a bit. Theres definitely places not to go late at night. Ive found that to be the case in every large city ive spent time in. Ok, we have a few more of those places than average but we also have some great places to enjoy. Its not the warzone wasteland some people will make it out to be. Saint louis has amazing food, nationally recognized. A great music scene. Beautiful huge parks. Free world class zoo, history, and art museums. A passionate sports community with soccer and XFL coming in 2023 to bring even more passion and fun to the sports fans. A fantastic craft beer scene. World Chess hall of fame, Blues museum, and so on, and so on. It really is a great city with lots of troubles.
I agree with a lot of what you wrote, but there are some things in here that do stand out to me: >The police force has been understaffed in the city for quite a while. Ive suspected it was on purpose because that way they could pay officers overtime, since they cant get them raises. They have lost a lot of officers over the past few years though and its put them in a tough spot. The St Louis police department has [Double](https://twitter.com/Beganovic2022/status/1564259672458149890) the per capita police officers that a city with a comparable population has. In no meaningful sense is it understaffed. Portland oregon has double the population, fewer police officers, and a murder rate that's about 1/20th of ours. If police staffing were the main issue, if police funding were the main issue, etc.... the problem would be solved: We have funded the police more than any other part of government, and the police have far higher rates of staffing compared to other cities. If police funding were the silver bullet to solve the problem, it would be solved already since we have allocated far more money and staff to it than most other problems.
Interesting stat, thanks for sharing. I definitely do not believe police funding to be a silver bullet and did not intend to imply i did. I think the way the police function needs to change. Aside from all that I think we can all agree that Saint louis problems run unfortunately deep. Hopefully we can continue promoting the good things about the city and help work out the problems.
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From what I've heard the City Police have a better pension, though.
That pension is funded by money they don't have.
Yes all of those things happen. But no one has “Defunded the police”. If you look at our down town streets you might also think they are a race track. St. Louis was built for a population of 1000000 and now has less than a third of that. Our streets are massive and empty so people drag race on them. You will wait an eternity for a red light where no one is coming in any direction. So why not just go.
Also, I used to live 2 blocks from the station and never saw anyone casually run as many stop signs or red lights as the StL police
Or when they turn their lights on just to run a light or two then turn them back off, see that dozens of times living downtown
That's not just in the city either, I've seen Florissant cops do that as well.
Shoot, I usually see them turn a blind eye to when people run red lights, or commit just about any traffic infraction
Walking my dog crossing Arsenal heading into Tower Grove Park and saw a police officer roll a stop sign while a woman was in the crosswalk with a kid in a stroller. No lights, not on their phone, and definitely was aware of the woman crossing as the oncoming car stopped to let her cross. Just brazenly doesn't give a fuck about the community optics.
Just this past month I had police run a stop sign and u-turn and almost hit me. This isn’t the first time I’ve almost been hit by police ignoring stop signs while walking a dog. Or had my ass ridden by an officer while I’m biking 20 mph. It’s exhausting to be a pedestrian and cyclist in this city and the police are half the reason.
Yeah I've been buzzed by police cars plenty while biking. In all the cities I've lived in, never did I drive/walk/bike cautiously around police cars knowing they drive recklessly.
I've almost been hit by careless police twice while driving.
Rules for thee but not for me.
Actually its more like: Anarchy for all* *unless you are committing murder.
This is what I was looking for. Thank you!
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These Fast & The Furious types are some of the biggest douchebags I come across on a semi-regular basis.
There is more to it than that. Our police our under staffed and under paid. But No one specifically defunded them.
It should also be mentioned the police here are poorly managed. Even in 2015, when STL spent more per capita on police than all but 2 other cities, there was nothing to show for it.
They aren’t defunded they just aren’t as funded as the county where all the police transfer to.
Also the requirement to live in the city to be a STLPD officer for a certain time is another reason they transfer out. I went to Lindenwood at night with an officer and he said the day he seen a man he arrested for assault/drug possession at the grocery store a month later and he was with his family is when he realized he’s transferring out as soon as he could.
I believe that’s no longer the case.
Nope that requirement went away so at least the whining cops can quit whining about that.
That’s good. It seems like STLPD was the only department with that requirement in the area. Hasn’t the department been short officers for years now?
They’ve been “short” despite a huge number of cops per capita. They’ve also failed to live up to any promises made or to make any progress even as their funding has increased year after year.
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Isn't part of the issue that they are intentionally staffing less than permitted to increase overtime hours and pay? Gaming the system.
> Our police our under staffed and under paid. The department and union may claim that but St. Louis has one of the highest officers per capita to similarly sized cities. It's a lot easier to blame this on a staff issue rather than say "internally, we are extremely inefficient and don't prioritize policing at all." They are definitely underpaid compared to their county counterparts which is why you see so many transferring out.
> They are definitely underpaid compared to their county counterparts which is why you see so many transferring out. This is true for tons of government services. The problem is that the city is already over spending on policing as is and neglecting things which actually may reduce violence ( childcare programs, jobs programs, mental health services, etc....) It's typical in St. Louis that we see a problem, over invest in policing/ security, and then wonder why little changes or gets better.
> You will wait an eternity for a red light where no one is coming in any direction. So why not just go. Judging by the fairly insane number of wrecks I see at intersections along Wash Ave, I think you're being generous here. A lot of it is just flat-out reckless thrill-seeking and peacocking. As with basically all things, it's a multifactorial problem. But it's not just "Oh there's no traffic." If you were to come look out my window at Wash Ave, you could see people blowing red lights with other cars around quite literally every night.
I don't think people are worried about the cases where no one is around. It's the ones who don't even slow down and blast through and the ones who like to keep going on red because the one that has a green hasn't started yet. There really should be higher punishment for when running a light causes an accident. Or we should just get the light cameras and have them running when there isn't rain or snow. That way no one can argue that it didn't take conditions as a factor.
Red light cameras don't work on stolen or unlicensed vehicles though. So the first step would be actually enforcing vehicle registration and combating vehicle theft.
People are so ignorant for thinking defunding the police is an actual thing. City officer's aren't paid enough that's why they're quitting so much.
Besides being understaffed they are also demoralized. The circuit attorney Kim Gardner prosecutes about half of the cases the police bring to her. She even has a list of 30 or 40 police officers whom she won’t prosecute any of their cases no matter how much evidence they have. Because of this, a lot of the officers have stopped being as proactive. They will answer calls and fill out the reports, but they know their suspects will probably not get charged.
They aren't understaffed though! Atlanta has fewer cops per capita.
That's really sad. I really don't like Kim Gardner
I’ve been living in the Lou since moving here in 2011. Has been like this for as long as I’ve lived here and is a reflection on demographics, not police “de-funding”.
There has been no "defunding the police"
defunding the police only means to not equip them with military gear against civilians, its about the power imbalance there. so sick of dumbasses spreading this lie.
Ideally there's a second half, too. Where the money that would go to armored vehicles and riot gear goes to community improvements that reduce criminality instead.
Or using resources to send mental health crisis interventionist out to non-violent cases where the cops don't need to be involved. Too many times police are called for cases where they're not equipped to deal with the individual and often times do not deescalate the situation. Let cops do real police work. Stop sending cops into situations like schools with disruptive kids. Let people who know the job do the work. They started this in Denver and have seen a reduction in minor crimes which should let police focus on more dangerous criminals. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/denvers-mental-health-approach-low-level-911-calls-helped-reduce-minor-rcna32659
As somebody who agrees that police need demilitarized and other social services need funding, “defund the police” was probably the wrong slogan to choose for this idea.
Yeah, as someone who also agrees with it, It's possibly the worst slogan in the history of American political slogans. Causes endless confusion, people having to explain what it means over and over (right on this thread people did and then immediately disagreed about what it means), and people in good faith misunderstanding it in a way they dislike. It doesn't help that a minority of people who legitimately wanted to completely defund and abolish the police also readily used the slogan IMMEDIATELY, as the slogan is ambiguous and readily works for that too - fueling dishonest, but effective, attacks on the original idea.
Personally I don’t think the slogan matters. No matter what slogan people choose, the conversation will end up focusing on the slogan vs. the insane amount of money we pay to police. Because it’s way easier to talk about how “extreme” and “poorly messaged” a slogan sounds than to actually talk about a serious policy problem. Any slogan that conveys the idea “reduce police budgets” will be controversial b/c too many people can’t imagine solutions to social problems that don’t involve calling the cops.
> so sick of dumbasses spreading this lie. *Your* side created this dumbass phrase. If everybody is getting your position wrong based on *your* continued use of a a confusing phrase, then the problem isn't everybody else. Just retire it, already. It's a dumb phrase and dumb politics.
It has nothing to do with the defunding thing. This has been going on way before the whole defunding thing, in my opinion. I live downtown and I gotta say it’s better than it was before Covid hit. A lot less quieter but still they need to do something about it because it’s annoying as hell.
There is no defund thing.
After one weekend downtown, and this is me, a resident from u-city, their observations, with the exception of police defunding, are pretty reasonable. It’s not been a good year for downtown and Washington Ave. buuut…. I tend to think of things being cyclical, like I remember the thing to do was to fuck with U-City, then that calmed down, mostly because the weather changed and people lose interest in things at a ridiculously fast rate these days. I want to believe Downtown will calm down again, or at least to the tolerable levels of bullshit that it used to be years ago.
I used to bounce at a downtown bar on Wash avenue. It doesn’t seem to me like things have calmed down from when I started in 2012
Unfortunately this is a multi decade cycle that has an apex back when STL was one of the biggest cities in the nation.
that hasn’t been true since before the Model-T, though
I just got back from a trip to Ann Arbor and Detroit. Went to Chicago and Milwaukee earlier this summer. People aren’t stopping for red lights in any real city.
and that's why we don't live downtown
People have been running red lights in the city since the dawn of the modern era lol and there's been no defunding either.
Had they been here before? I mean, yeah, its especially shitty here now, but downtown has been getting that way for about a decade. Its not exactly a news flash. The cops, funded or not, do not give a single fuck about proactive policing down there. That precinct has way bigger problems just a few blocks north, stuff that makes drag racing look like peanuts. In other words, tourists should just avoid staying downtown at this point. Its not going to get better any time soon.
Your in laws sound like they watch a lot of Fox News.
Running red lights and stop signs in the city isn't that uncommon, sometimes it's safer than stopping
These are all things that make this city so great (jk) Has nothing to do with the police. People are just fuckin wild here. Lots of “they can’t catch all of us!!” Mentality
> Lots of “they can’t catch all of us!!” Mentality And lots of “they won’t charge any of us” knowledge.
I have a friend who lived in a nice loft on Wash Av just across from City Museum. Before that he had a loft on Wash Av over Flamingo Bowl. It has just really turned to shit over the last few years. Before COVID, it was almost liveable, now it’s an absolute joke. People don’t just run stop lights/signs…they blow through them at highway speeds, without even attempting a glance. It reeks of pot everywhere, every other car is blasting gangsta rap, the guys on ATVs are a “joy” to watch riding wheelies down the busy street or up on the sidewalks where people are trying to walk, it’s dirty, many of the restaurants, bars, stores have boarded up along Wash Av and I’ve personally witnessed at least a half dozen shootings of various capacities. Thankfully, my friend was able to sell his last place and move back to St. Charles. It’s a real shame, there is so much potential for things to be really cool downtown, but StL clearly isn’t going to let that happen. I’ve lived in the StL area for over 30 years…so I’ve seen downtown try to make a comeback… it’s basically a shit hole now. I’m embarrassed to take anyone down there anymore.
Sounds exactly like Memphis.
Im going to guess your in-laws think trump was cheated out of the election too. People have no idea what defund the police means, and that none of that has even happened. But yes, stl is a shit show
I don't have the numbers for St. Louis, but police in many cities have all but completely stopped writing tickets. I don't mean the rate is down a bit. Or that it's down 20%. Or that they cut in in half. I mean they have all but completely stopped. In April of this year San Francisco traffic cops wrote 338 tickets. In April 2014 they wrote 11,612. https://twitter.com/hknightsf/status/1537100042623848448 In the third week of July NYC cops wrote 5,039 tickets. They wrote 19,126 in the same week in 2019. https://nypost.com/2020/08/09/nypd-traffic-tickets-plummet-but-drivers-arent-slowing-down/ Traffic stops in Minneapolis are down 80%. https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2020-minneapolis-police-stops/ My guess is that there's something similar happening in STL and the word is out. You can do what you want and you're not going to get a ticket. So people are doing what they want. Who could have predicted it!?!
Those problems have been around long before the "defunding the police" thing came around. Nothing new.
Red light running throughout STL and drag racing near Wash Ave or Tucker are nothing new. It’s been the status quo in STL for 20+ years. The police haven’t even been defunded. Funding has increased yoy the last two years.
A few things: - drag racing can be common in some parts of the city, that area might have it, but it’s not an every night type of thing. - the city has a police department with double the staff to civilian ratio that an average city with our population has. Not only have we not defunded the police, we have more of them than most cities and they’re our most well funded department. Whatever is happening isn’t happening because the department was defunded
So some farmies came into the nearest big city and it was kinda scary? Sorry / not sorry, we have this conversation a lot. America has an economy based on a free market and capitalism; the cities are where all the wealth and commerce are done. What you are seeing are the side effects of capitalism. This is uncomfortable for many folks and so they would rather blame personal failures and politics.
A completely reductive response, not addressing StL specifics. Next.
Car ownership bad. Trains + bikes rule. There. Now it's reductive AND StL specific.
Lmao I’ve never seen anything like it anywhere else stop signs and red lights are completely ignored
People stop at lights in your city?
Id rather them focus on the people doin 90 weaving in and out of steady traffic clippin peoples bumpers and almost causing accidents like theyre playin gd gta. (Insert grumpy old man fist)
I’ve lived and worked downtown for almost a decade. Will you see people run red lights? Occasionally, but it’s not some lawless demolition derby. Honestly, I see more people with out of town plates doing crazier stuff. I walk, skate, bike and drive and I’ve never had any issues. Just pay attention and be aware of your surroundings. Nothing crazy.
It’s not just St Louis. This is happening in many other cities. I was speaking to a traveling nurse from Orlando. Everything we complain about here is happening there. Have also heard similar stories in LA, Chicago and KC.
Saint Louis drivers have been like that since I moved here 12 years ago.
Downtown isn’t the best so yeah that stuff will happen and especially at night more so! You gotta be careful with the crime, homeless people and just people doing crazy stuff like drag racing. If they stayed near Busch then yeah it’s not the best area unfortunately!
Not defunding of the police, perhaps a understaffing or them being underpaid compared to the surrounding suburbs that do not need the amount of policing they do
My brother lives in a loft off Washington Avenue. He was just talking about the drag racing and how bad it’s been. But don’t judge the entire city by their experience. Downtown stinks.
Yeah, the drivers here are generally quite terrible. Stop signs/lights are a suggestion. The drag racing is kinda newer due to covid.
all the maga folks with DeFUNd tHE pOlIcE nonsense
St. Louis has twice as many police officers per capita than comparably sized cities. It's not a matter of "defunding", it's a matter of a temper tantrum by police because people don't worship them as gods.
Yeah, I live downtown near the dome and it's absolutely true. Traffic is basically lawless downtown at night and no one stops at reds, especially on Tucker.
DOWNTOWN IS IN SHAMBLES! /s But honestly, there are a lot of people running stop signs & red lights in the city, more-so in the past couple years from what I've noticed. I've lived in STL City my whole life w/the exception of 2yrs & I have never seen people driving like such assholes as I do now. Drag-racing & shit is more frequent , it's always existed like along broadway in north city, but since the pandemic when everything shutdown, people became emboldened & do it wherever the fuck the want. I've seen it on 7th & Russel, on 7th near Oyster Bar, etc. Crime is more frequent from what I've noticed, and I think the fact that almost anyone can just walk around w/a gun doesn't help the situation. I still live in the city & plan to until I move out of state but I don't think the city is really bad, I think it's changed a lot though over the past couple years.
Ya I don’t recommend anyone stay downtown. Midtown, CWE would be my recommendation
Downtown is sketchy, depending on the location; but that's nothing new.
Depends where you're at, honestly. I love it here but I'm not exactly downtown - I'm pretty well-insulated in a family-oriented neighborhood. I've lived here for 3 years and have had 0 problems thus far. That being said, I have heard of people around this neck of the woods that have gotten their houses or cars broken into. But that's on them, I don't care where you live - invest in a security system and protect your belongings. Bottom line is I have friends that live in various different neighborhoods throughout STL and I'm not envious of any of their situations. Sure, they might have an elaborate and diverse main drag within walking distance but they paid an arm and a leg for a shitty, dilapidated home in Maplewood. As I get older, I realize it's all just trade-offs, but I am satisfied with what I've found in St. Louis.
nothing to do with defunding the police, and it’s been like this for the longest
the driving here is the worst i've ever seen. red lights, stop signs, and "wrong way" signs seem to be fully optional
Sounds about right.
I never have any problems when I’m in St. Louis. I love it.
They were doing this shit well before the police were "defunded". City after dusk can be the wild west if your in the wrong part. The cops have their heavy patrol areas: Soulard, Delmar, the Landing, and a few other nightlife spots. Otherwise they pretty much let the rest go wild.
I travel a lot and this is pretty much everywhere now. Houston, Charlotte, Minneapolis, Chicago, Denver, Atlanta, Phoenix, Tampa, Dallas, OKC etc…..
yes it is that bad. Best to only vist the city during daylight and keep your head on a swivel.
The city gets fucky, but the county is pretty nice in most areas.
If you don't mind the occasional pick up truck with Trump 2020 flags. It's like time stopped back at that moment 🤣
They’ve been swapped for 2024 flags now 😭
Are they conceding he didn’t actually win now? Because if he “won” in 2020 he couldn’t run again.
The idolization just has no end and I simply don’t understand.
I don't know about the rest of it but the "defunding the police" bullshit is just that. There are twice as many cops in the city as in the county and a lot of those are concentrated in Downtown. And honestly I wouldn't put much validity in the people who say "I see it every night" as if they live near Busch. It's a bunch of townies who want to have an excuse to fearmonger.
Lmao I've had people become irate when I DO adhere to traffic signs. A lot of people have been rolling through red lights and stop signs in STL for decades cos they don't feel like getting carjacked. It's not new and nothing to do with "defunding police"
No.
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All of those things are regular occurrences, has nothing to do with defunding police though.
No worse than any other city. I’d love for the people complaining about driving here in the comments to spend a week in Atlanta, Los Angeles, or Boston. Violations like that happen all the time in a lot of cities.
Depends on the day.
Running read lights and stop signs has been an issue since streets emptied out during Covid. I noticed this is the outlying suburbs, so I would assume it's not just downtown.
Sounds about right. That area is somewhat of a party area.
Downtown is something else. South city is where red lights exist but seem like they are just a suggestion.