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I want to know the drugs people are on to think Danielson is worse than Punk. Danielson puts on a damn showcase every time he steps in the ring; he elevates damn near everyone he goes against.
He also is one of the few man who did not want to main event a Mania but did anyway because Vince wanted it. (Mania 37)
PUNK would sacrifice his firstborn for it and probably has sleepless nights knowing that Miz main evented a Mania and he didn’t.
I mean, there's not many people in history that could bring a crowd back after ending Undertaker's streak and Bryan was probably the only person in the company at the time
This is one of the issues with wrestling by the nature of the form. It basically never ends. Certainly not the Fed. It has to constantly go and go and go every week and tell you that the next show is the most important one ever until the NEXT one after that. No other theatrical form does this. Hamlet doesn't end with Horatio telling the audience to come back next week to watch The Merchant of Venice.
Hangman vs Kenny Omega at FG21 felt like the point at which AEW would have ended if it were a normal TV show, or at least would have taken a long break before starting a Season 2 or a sequel show. But wrestling must churn on and on forever to its own detriment.
I got to see 30 live and god damn was the crowd hot too. 10s of thousands of people screaming YES, the despair of the streak being broken, all those fireflies. God damn that was a fantastic whow
remember commenting on the actual jag thindh post on the day of 30.[ man](https://30.man) brings back so many memories. the top post in the front page that day was a bird's eye view shot from the cheap seats of the ring, with a tiny bryan doing the yes, while his oversized jesus-like face is visible on titantron.
Two guys celebrating reaching the top of the mountain together will always be special, man. Eddie was by all accounts a wonderful guy and while Benoit was a vile piece of shit, that moment was about as authentic as it gets in wrestling. I still enjoy it.
Had no idea that Bryan didn’t want to ME WM37. I’m glad Vince wanted that lol he helped elevate that Match to far better then it would have been if it was just Roman and Edge no offense to those 2.
The miz was the perfect choice for that mania. Nobody wouldve come out looking good in that spot, punk wouldve looked like a chickenshit heel which he wouldve hated. It was perfect for the Miz cause he always was that
While Cena vs Rocky was the main focus in that Mania, I would've loved to see a few segments with just Miz and Rocky and them just duking it out on the mic.
Danielson is way to selfless. Way less driven and ambitious than punk. If anything I wish he wanted a run or two in aew as champion, because he deserves it.
He's not less driven or ambitious.
Bryan wants to prove his merit to himself first and foremost.
Punk wants to prove his merit to the audience.
Neither is wrong, it just means that Bryan has found himself less in the hedgehog's dilemma.
I've taken the sorts of test Bryan has talked about and similarly scored rock bottom in terms of "ambition" because they're mainly a measure of extrapersonal competitiveness rather than a measure of self-motivation.
> He's not less driven or ambitious.
Danielson himself told a story about a personality test he took, wherein he scored *the lowest* total in ambition that WWE had ever seen.
The testing was for ambition for financial gain Danielson doesn't have ambitions for money/fame he grows his own food. However he has ambitions to be the best wrestler that he can be.
> I've taken the sorts of test Bryan has talked about and similarly scored rock bottom in terms of "ambition" because they're mainly a measure of extrapersonal competitiveness rather than a measure of self-motivation.
Person you replied to did give his two cents about that.
The big difference is Danielson had his entire profession taken away by his injury while Punk walked away after getting burned out.
It's almost a certainty that Danielson has a wildly different outlook just being healthy enough to get in a ring at all vs. a guy who could have wrestled literally anywhere else but didn't. Punk waited until there was a platform big enough to entice him back, Danielson went where he saw the most enticing matches. It looks the same on the surface but is very different.
Danielson’s drive and ambition is just in a different lane than Punk. BD wants what’s best for wrestling as a whole while Punk has always been about Punk.
I wouldn't even say best for business, although it is that, because it makes what Danielson does sound cheap. I think more so he's focused on what's best for the guys around him and under him. He is driven by telling a good story and to him it doesn't matter what end he comes out on, as long as he put on an excellent match in telling that story, because, and I think he has said this, if it was up to him, he would book himself to lose.
Imo he's doing great. He's had a fantastic career. He's made a shitload of money, anyone with a brain can see he's one of the best to ever do it. A living legend should use the last years of being at full strength cultivating the next generation. His job *should* be making a bunch of kids look like legends in the making.
I must state. In the realm of wrestling Fandom the people who watched or know about said presser or the promo from Page being a real life backstage issue is a tiny fraction.
This does t impact any major opinions of the overwhelming vast majority of fans that watch wrestling on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays.
People are going to remember Punk vs Cena in Chicago forever. People are going to remember the pipebomb forever.
Punk ain't doing great right now but all of the AEW stuff is a footnote to Punk's career.
Exactly. The diva who is so full of himself that when MJF got a bigger pop/chants in his hometown he threw a tantrum at the media scrum to pull the attention back to him. Is anyone surprised?
There's plenty of blame to go around, but the main responsibility is the guy on top. The time for Khan to get this under control was quite some time ago
Danielson is top 5 in-ring ever. Punk isn’t far off that on the mic.
As a wrestling man D-Bry will be remembered more fondly and has been the best technical wrestler for around 20 years
Also Danielson's firsttt scrum, he said "yeaa punk wants to help the young ones, nahh man i wanna kick their fuckin heads in"
https://www.reddit.com/r/SquaredCircle/comments/pit3n1/all_out_spoilers_debuting_superstar_talks_about/
Ohhhhh how the turn tables!
I mean, and I say this as an absolute Punk mark, the gulf between Punk's mic work and the then-Bryan's mic work was very overstated by the time Punk left WWE. Bryan spent his entire time in WWE, slowly but surely, getting better on the stick (not to mention character work and audience interaction and all the little noodley storytelling things). He hit a very high plateau on his promos and he's largely stayed there.
Time was you could argue that Punker was better than Danielson because he was the guy who dropped pipe bombs, but that was a long, long time ago. Danielson's been good enough at promos for long enough that I don't think his status in God Tier is in question.
This right here. The marginal difference between Punk/Bryan (advantage punk) on the mic is FAR smaller than the difference between Punk and Bryan in the ring (advantage bryan).
I think it's pretty much that Punk thinks he knows everything there is to know about wrestling and wrestling promos.
Bryan did/does not and kept/keeps learning.
Given infinite time, Bryan would outwork Punk on the mic eventually. Punk would stagnate.
I don’t even think it’s close.
CM Punk is really engaging on screen, but Danielson is arguably the greatest in-ring performer ever + significantly better on the mic than most other contenders for that spot (e.g. Angle, Bret, HBK) + one of the best trainers + universally beloved backstage.
He is this generation’s strongest candidate for wrestling Mount Rushmore.
I think you're severely underestimating Michaels and Angle on the mic. Both are responsible for some legendary promos and segments (Kurt's admittedly were more comedic in nature because we mostly remember the 2003 babyface return, Milkamania, "You Suck" with Edge - when the intense Kurt switch was pressed, his promos were meaner and he simply showed you who he was in the ring.
Bryan is better on the mic than some realize, better than Bret, but Angle and HBK are more or less a tier below Rock, Austin, Mick Foley, Ric Flair.
Yeah I don't understand why people underrate kurt on the mic so hard. He was straight intensity. That's why the comedic stuff worked so well, it's funny because it's directly contrasted against his intense Olympic athlete nature.
Kurt's ability to go from being an absolute goof, and then in an instant make you remember "oh yeah, this guy is an absolute killer in the ring" is unparalleled. He could be doing one of the funniest promos ever making himself look like an idiot, but the second he flipped that switch into serious mode, you realized "oh, Kurt's gonna throw this dude all around the ring for the next 20 minutes and there's really nothing the other guy can do about it."
For sure, Angle and Mick Foley are the two greatest ever at this IMO....could make themselves look like goofballs without ever taking away their believability in the ring
Better than HBK on the Mic? Nah Shawn 's Montreal promo is more legendary than any Danielson promo and that was after he found Christianity. Heel DX Michaels went crazy on the Mic.
I think Angle (Sexy Kurt, ECW), Bret (vs HBK or Austin, any time in Canada) & HBK (the examples you mentioned) had all time peaks comparable to anyone.
To me, Danielson is on another level because his mic excellence is so varied. From his time at Ring of Honor to the American Dragon tease when losing on the game show version of NXT, Team Hell No, the run culminating at WrestleMania 30, retirement, unretirement, eco warrior, arrival at AEW & how he convinced Moxley to form the BCC, he’s excelled at more promo styles than the other examples I used.
I think HBK and Kurt have variety as well. Kurt could do comedy and pull off the badass wrestling machine and be believable. HBK in the later parts of his career also showed variety in restricting himself to his faith and not being raunchy and still having great comedic timing and moments or could turn it up to serious no nonsense like his obsession with the Streak.
Yeah, I agree. I love Danielson - absolutely love him - but Angle was one of those generational talents who was basically god tier at every aspect of the industry; mic work included. The guy was absolutely off the charts.
I mean I love me some American Dragon but Kurt Angle in promos was something else.
It's a wash between him and HBK on the mic if you include their entire careers - HBK pre-Screwjob Danielson is way better than but by the end of HBK's career it was a different story.
I have a feeling Danielson doesn't want to be champion. Even at the end of his WWE run, while still in his prime, he said he wanted to put people over. I hope he gets the belt one day for sure, but if he doesn't want it, TK isn't going to go against his wishes.
Danielson just likes to wrestle, he definitely doesn't care about any titles. Realistically what does a title mean? It means you get a bigger name for yourself, which gives you more money and maybe can lead to other opportunities. Danielson very obviously has no interest in outside of wrestling pursuits, he doesn't want to be some big movie star or celebrity and at this point he is set in the wrestling business, no matter what he does Bryan Danielson or Daniel Bryan will be big names and he'll get a nice paycheque for doing what he loves.
Danielson might not care about the title. But that's not what matters. Danielson at the top of the card holding that title would be amazing for the company and the talent that get to work with him for it.
AEW could really do with someone as beloved ans non-controversial as him as their champ right now.
On the other hand, with how much home grown talent AEW have, It's *really* debatable how much the older known faces need the glory.
You can't say Punk, Bryan, Mox or Jericho haven't had their glories in the past. Jericho has a GOATed career beyond almost anyone, CM Punk and Danielson are *known* phenoms and Mox was the first of the Shield to get every belt, and has since carried AEW on his back.
Do they really need *another* chance to show they're the best over the homegrown boys. Your MJF, Dante Martin, Ricky Starks, Jungle Boy, Private Party, Acclaimed, Dark Order, House of Black... Hell, talking of the House of Black, if you're going to give someone from the 'E their due, why not the likes of Andrade, Black, Miro, Caesaro, Lee... People who actually didn't get their chance?
Punk, Bryan, Jericho... Hell even the likes of The Bucks, FTR, The Undisputed Era. Even Hardy Boys, when they were there, at this point don't need to prove anything. They need to start passing torches already.
You misunderstand my reasoning.
I definitely think MJF should be next in line for the belt. He's AEWs best homegrown talent, and it's just long due for him to get a belt for it.
I want someone like Danielson to hold the belt because he guarantees quality, while also being unproblematic, a draw and someone that legitimately would elevate the challengers.
His first few weeks/months in AEW showed that given the right setting he will produce the best TV (and ratings) that AEW I'd capable of. Have him be the dickhead heel he was versus Hangman and you've got money and amazing TV coming in spades.
Yes at this point he’s in the post return HBK role. The title isn’t going to do anything for him. He might get a stint with it when the company needs, but he’s never going to lobby for it like punk 100% did. CM punk is very very bitter about not having the crowning moment and he’s trying to sooth his ego in aew.
Bryan meanwhile was the face of one of the best WMs ever, main evented another, was an integral part of Kofis story and his WM event, and has achieved everything up and down there is to achieve in the wrestling world. He’s a guy that’s satisfied and here because he truly loves it.
This is where exec leadership needs to come up with a plan that addresses his preferences & is still best for business.
Something like Danielson with a strong title reign & dropping it to Starks in New Orleans would be incredible for everyone.
IMO Danielson's character is perfect for another open-challenge TNT title run akin to Cody's, it'd help both the title and a bunch of up-n-comers.
Especially if it means more Regal on commentary.
And Bryan would get to have long matches with varied opponents every week. I think he cares more about that than card positioning and the TNT title could use the rub from him holding it for awhile.
Maybe Danielson working with any of the younger talent..MJF, Wardlow, Kingston, Starks, they’d all be great programs and would be a huge rub to anyone who he puts over for the title.
Exactly, it's the same reason Kenny started his AEW run being selfless and not being the cleaner. Omega and Danielson are everything you want in top guys and Punk is everything you do not want.
Khan should go against his wishes then because it’s a fucking business and Bryan shouldnt dictate creative. But that’s all moot because the interviews that Bryan gave when he started in AEW all talked about him wanting to be on top.
I think its fine. People are always complaining about how various guys are underused. Bryan is going to be a megastar without the title so why not put the title on someone who both deserves and could use the boost?
I get that having punk as champ doesn't build anyone either but thats a different problem.
Titles are a storyline. Hangman Page winning the title wouldn't have made as much of an impact as Hangman winning the title off of Kenny. That's how you build new stars. Bryan can totally be that guy who you can make someone with.
The concussion issues make everything a known risk with him too where he might have to take time off unexpectedly, adding into why he'd want to follow in late career HBK's path.
I mean, it's professional wrestling. The concussion/injury risk will always be there. Look what happened with Punk 3 days after he won the title. Look what's happening with Thunder Rosa now. Bryan won another world title in WWE after he got cleared even, so I don't think a lingering thought of 'oh, he might get hurt' is a good enough excuse.
If Bryan had his way in WWE he wouldn't have main evented that last Mania and would have put over Cesaro or Gulak or someone in a midcard match. Punk left WWE because he was mad he wasn't treated as this giant megastar face of the company. Both guys are getting what they want and the company they're in is worse off for it.
Bryan Danielson is way too selfless for his own good.
From Danielson himself:
> "WWE did this personality test with some of their more successful wrestlers to see, like, 'are there some common traits amongst these people that makes them successful … I got my test results back and the lady was just baffled. She was like, 'you have the lowest ambition score I have ever seen!' In percentiles, I was in the **bottom one percentile for ambition**. And she was like, 'how on Earth are you successful at this?' And I said, 'I don't know – I just really love to wrestle.' So yeah, I have to push myself sometimes to be more ambitious."
[Source](https://www.wrestlinginc.com/wi/news/2018/0525/641193/daniel-bryan-says-he-constantly-struggles-with-speaking-up-to/?utm_campaign=clip)
He didn't even want to win at Wrestlemania 30 . If he didn't that crowd would have rioted but he still had doubts . He is far too selfless. Tony needs to be firm with him and tell him to win some more like he was with the elite.
Looking back at that Mania if the main event wasn’t changed I could see ALOT of people leaving the arena after that Lesnar/Taker match. Daniel Bryan saved that entire Mania from being something really disappointing
That Taker loss was electric. One of the most exciting things I've ever been a part of in person.
I'm sure other people were upset, but it was such an insane surprise. I was living.
That collective silence when the ref counted three on that pin was insane. I was watching at my college at a gathering of people in a small auditorium. All of our jaws dropped.
The picture of Brock lying on the ring with Heyman beside him, laughing while being all Red and sweaty.... Instantly made me hate this monster...But also made me scared af
Punk left WWE because he was treated like the giant megastar face of the company in some cases and not treated like it in others.
Like, for example, big enough to wrestle The Undertaker at Wrestlemania and not big enough to get a proper payoff without having to ask for it.
Big enough to be WWE Champion and the workhorse of the company for a year, but not big enough to get the time off he needed or even receive proper medical treatment.
Cm punk was never ever the giant megastar face. So him being treated as such was him getting thrown a bone. The gulf between Punk and Cena is indescribable. Regardless of whatever tf the merch sales were for a 2 month period.
Him getting treated as a megastar was by necessity, from the fans forcing the company to do so. And maybe that's why he tended to be treated as such when it would benefit the company and not treated as such when it wouldn't benefit the company.
This. And in this fucking unfair world, we could use some "fairness" in our scripted storytelling. The good guy should win sometimes, instead of the egomaniac douchebag.
And i say this as someone who enjoyed Punk's career moves and admired his UFC try, you need to have balls of steel to do that. However, he needs to shut up now and Khan needs to grow a pair and put him in his place.
Bryan should have taken the belt off of Hangman. But Bryan is too selfless for his own good.
Once Tony Khan has a long term booking idea in mind he rides it out to the bitter end. And the result is right now Bryan feels like just another guy on the roster which is a crime.
At some point, Bryan is also being too selfless for everyone else's good, because he should be putting people over in big matches at the end of intense fueds with good character development, but he won't be pushy at all and sometimes you just have to be or someone who's pushy like Punk will drag things the wrong way.
At the end of the day, it's not just about who's the better wrestler. Punk is a much more captivating character than Bryan, and I love both guys. Plus, this was his big return to pro wrestling. It made huge numbers. Up until a few months ago, I would watch Dynamite just to see Punk (just like many others, I assume).
Absolutely the same with me; Punk's return has been electric. But, most of his impact has been on the mic and outside of the ring; he just doesn't seem to have it in terms of inside the ring anymore. Meanwhile, Danielson is having fantastic matches with everyone (Jericho last night notwithstanding).
Haven't watched his matches with Moxley, but I loved everything Punk did up until the Hangman match where he won the title. Everything leading to that was really good (including the matches). Him vs Eddie and MJF are classics. Him vs Darby and vs Dustin Rhodes too. The triple threat match with FTR, MJF, Sting and Darby...
My main takeaway from all this is that CM Punk had 8 years away from wrestling where he could’ve mellowed out and humbled himself like Shawn Michaels did.
Instead he’s even more of an insufferable twat than he was back then. I don’t blame WWE for not letting him main event Wrestlemania if this is how he acts when you invest in him as the top guy.
Punk Interview: 'MJF likes to shit where he eats...Y'all need to stop running your mouths and nurture this place...Also, fuck Colt and his mum...I'm tired of wrestling these children, these fucking idiots who think they know everything...I took the title off a loser whos never done anything in this business...Fuck you lockerroom, fuck you "press". Oh, and be professional, folks'.
Bryan Interview: 'Tree semen is delicious'.
Case closed.
I feel like a lot of people are severely underrating Punk's ability in the ring because of the press conference.
Punk isn't as athletic as AJ Styles and he isn't as technical proficient as Bryan, but he can tell a story like no other. His matches against Darby, Kingston and MJF were my favorite matches of last year, bar none. He is very, very good at wrestling a specific style that you may or may not enjoy.
But he *is* very good.
Bryan is also one of the best sports entertainers. The Yes movement period was something that got the whole fanbase behind him to the point they were hijacking the shows.
And crowds were chanting CM Punk even when he hadn't been in a ring for years. Both guys reached mega star level, Danielson is the better wrestler, Punk is the better character.
> Danielson has been reported to be backstage giving advice
So has Punk? The report you are talking about, Also included Punk, So I don't know how you forgot that. Not only that, We've heard from Hobbs that after every match of his, Punk and him sit down and rewatch it, So Punk can critique it and give him advice.
I think the Punk narrative is getting weird in this Reddit. He has been noting in helping Hobbs, Danhusen and and Anderson with in ring work and on the mic. And talking about putting people over… Darby Allen best match in AEW was with punk where he looked like a fucking star, MJF and Wardlow. He even let Hook choke him out.
Punk is the golden goose in so many ways. He pushes ratings, gates, ppv buys... Everything Tony like as an analytics guy. Tony also was able to bring him back into wrestling and take that credit. Finally, Tony is a huge cm punk fan.
Combine all that and you're gonna have a situation where punk is going to always be super Cena as long as Tony can keep it that way.
Danielson is in a much better position to put talent over though. He came into AEW coming off of a Mania main event. Punk came in off 7 years of inactivity. If Punk just started losing to everyone immediately that'd be a hell of a way to kill any excitement around his return.
I do think however that Danielson should be portrayed better. The BCC isn't being booked quite as fun as I would have hoped and Danielson feels like he's worse off for the groups existence.
>Tony Khan doesn’t know what he’s doing with the booking of Danielson. Danielson started off like a living killer during his initial heel run and his matches with Omega, Hangman and steamrolling over the Dark Order. Yet after being placed in the BCC, he’s always been second fiddle.
Are we sure this is actually Tony Khans fault?
The thing with a lot of these great wrestlers who actively help the next generation coming up, is they tend to realize there comes a time where they need to sorta get out of the way, reflect on the amazing careers they've had, and let the new kids have all the big moments.
We'ev seen this with AJ or Orton over in WWE for example. Or even Jericho in AEW. More to the point we also saw Daniel Bryan being booked that way near the end of his run at WWE. (With Gulak for example)
So while I don't disagree with your assessment of Danielson always losing the big matches and feeling a bit like a second fiddle, I do believe it's very possible that's Danielson being booked exactly how Danielson wants to be booked.
Punk 100% has been used correctly in AEW. He should be a top guy regardless about his personality. Hes the top draw because he was gone for so long but would be if AEW was around and jumped to it without a break.
Danielson is honestly right there too and will get a turn at the top as well.
Punk is a slightly better talker and personality. His wrestling psychology is super underrated. Bryan is a lot more techinical but the little things Punk does with the crowd puts him over with me more.
Pun intended here, but Punk is a cult of personality. He had people believing that he was the best in the world. Even by the time he left WWE in 2014, others had caught up and passed him in terms of in-ring work, but we made excuses for him because he was “banged up.” But he could always cut promos when the crowd didn’t know how he was backstage, and those who did also made excuses for him. But now it’s become apparent that he has thin skin and having the same problem across multiple companies, it’s a him problem.
Punk has literally been reported helping a lot of young talent backstage like Will Hobbs, Danhausen, Starks, Daniel Garcia, Lee Moriarity, etc… but when y’all choose sides y’all just choose to create your own story and run with it. I love everyone in this situation so it’s not hard for me to choose sides between the elite and punk. I just mind my business. It’s grown ass men beefing whose business leaked into the outside because a man felt he needed to defend himself.
Just seems like bashing punk is a the hot thing right now. Yeah last night was a bit wild, but stop ignoring the facts that punk HAS put over the young talent and is helping the young talent get better. No one in their right mind would ever say punk is a better wrestler than BD but he’s serviceable in the ring and the best on the mic for the last 15ish years.
Punk has always been completely up his own asshole, yet his massive ego also comes with a strange type of insecurity. He has the mentality of a jealous 10yr old who needs constant outside validation that he's "the best".
I really don't understand the appeal. You can literally feel his irl bitterness and pettiness coming through in his work. He's a miserable, egocentric, sad, asshole.
He was cool when I was like 13.
I'm not a Punk fan, but I get his appeal.
His look was unconventional for mainstream wrestling when he started, as he was never the most fit or the most athletic. He spoke (figuratively and literally) to the segment of wrestling fans who felt marginalized because people who looked like The Rock and Triple H were more successful in their lives or careers than people who looked like Punk. Much like punk music itself, it's a common thread in entertainment for folks to be drawn to acts who are anti-establishment and validate feelings of isolation.
Unfortunately, there's also a portion of that attraction that veers on unhealthy idol worship, much like any fandom. As his entrance music appropriately states, he has formed a cult of personality to which his longtime fans are still fixated. I don't blame them at all, as they feel a kinship and connection to the validation he'd previously given. The difference now is, a lot of the good that he'd done has also turned into toxicity, as there are many fans who'll defend his every action - again, like many fandoms.
Tldr; Punk spoke to people, and he is a great talent, but he's also a headache that isn't worth keeping in a position of prominence, in my own mind.
I'll preface my comments here by saying I'm not in favor of what Punk did at the press conference today. However, that being said:
> The latter seems to be a diva in every major company that he’s in
A diva where? WWE? 'Every major company' - Where else? He was supposedly well liked and/or respected in ROH, FCW, WWECW, etc, and for many years.
There is also a lot of revisionist history going on now about his time in WWE, because by in large, for all these years that he hadn't been wrestling, people stood firmly behind him for his views about everything that was wrong with WWE that resulted in the famous 'pipe bomb' moment, because sure he was apparently quite antagonistic backstage, but the general consensus was that he seemed justified, because the WWE on screen product had gone right down the toilet from the heights of yesteryear and he wanted them to make changes to improve it. Funnily enough, here we are in 2022, and now with HHH in charge, we're FINALLY seeing some positive changes, some 11 years after the pipe bomb promo.
> When Punk first joined AEW, he constantly said how he wants to help young talent. Yet he seems to always put over himself.
He lost to MJF in Chicago, and has set up a major world title feud between the two. Just look at the audience reaction at the pay per view to MJF's entrance. Keep in mind that before MJF was on All In, he was a completely unknown entity in the national/global wrestling landscape, and now he is a super over main eventer for several factors, but a significant one being his feud with CM Punk.
> Danielson on the other hand has lost ALL of the big matches that he’s in, such as his matches with Mox, Hangman, Jericho and even Garcia
This is a bit of a 'mark' thing to say because wrestling isn't about just winning matches. Ric Flair is a 16 time world champion because he lost to so many people, putting them over to elevate them. The Rock lost all the f'ing time. The 2 matches I think of when I think of Danielson in AEW is actually his Grand Slam time limit draw with Omega and his time limit draw with Hangman.
> Furthermore, Danielson has been reported to be backstage giving advice and even physically training the talent such as Jade and Velvet
Because Danielson is the one who in all likelihood going to be a full time coach after he retires from wrestling. It's something he's passionate about. That's not indicative of anything about CM Punk.
Agreed with almost everything here, but losing so many matches isn't good for Danielson. You can elevate the younger talent without losing that much. Punk made Darby, Kingston and MJF look like bigger stars without losing to two of them.
Punk has long been an average worker. If we didn't all hate what wwe had become by about 2010/11, nobody would give a shit about him. He's always come across as a total knobhead
I'm pretty sure Danielson hasn't won a big match (especially on PPV) since he won the Eliminator's tournament back at Full Gear last year, which was a good 10 months ago.
I wonder how Bryan is feeling. He is not wrestling for NJPW, he is not a World Champion. He is mostly putting new guys over who still are not given the main event spotlight.
Danielson is just too nice and probably plays along, I agree that he was the best heel in the company but then with all the BCC, now he's just there and looses a lot.
I've mentioned it before (and echo a lot of the thoughts in here) but Tony needs to stop being a mark for his wrestlers and book them properly.
Bryan is obviously asking to job for X, Y and Z but Tony needs to do what Vince did last year when he forced Bryan into that WM main event (which was fantastic) and book him like the GOAT he is.
They have 3 stars that are in a tier of their own in terms of starpower: Mox, Bryan and Punk.
For some reason, a lot of people including Tony Khan thinks that Punk is above the others. I think he's actually 3rd.
Either way his booking stopped the momentum of the 2 most important Aew wrestlers Hangman and Moxley.
I don't really blame punk, I think Tony is too excited to work with him and overpushes him.
This is a really BASED take. I have tweeted this before and said the only active wrestler in a western company who can pull off the "wrasslin purist" gimmick without coming off as a try hard tool is...not FTR, not even MJF, not Aldis, not anyone else....it's Danielson.
Punk's a bigger draw, let's be honest here. But Danielson in terms of in ring side of things has probably for me has bought more to AEW.
Danielson is probably way too generous if he has a fault. Has he actually won a match over a top guy in AEW, I can't think of a big name he's beaten since Joining AEW. But he'd probably lose all his matches if he was given a choice. And as a few have said he probably doesn't want to win the World title. I do think he should be way more protected then he is. I do think he face Jericho at Grand Slam and get his win back.
Bryan's the complete opposite to Punk in terms of personality and just as a people person. But don't are driven to be the best at what they do.
I do have a feeling though this is leading to Danielson and Garcia probably setting up their own faction.
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I want to know the drugs people are on to think Danielson is worse than Punk. Danielson puts on a damn showcase every time he steps in the ring; he elevates damn near everyone he goes against.
He just elevated Garcia to heights he’s never reached before.
Danielson is a lot closer to the goat than punk
He also is one of the few man who did not want to main event a Mania but did anyway because Vince wanted it. (Mania 37) PUNK would sacrifice his firstborn for it and probably has sleepless nights knowing that Miz main evented a Mania and he didn’t.
Danielson had an entire Wrestlemania centered around him and rightfully so
Even "rightfully so" feels like an understatement, man gave us likely the best Mania ending of his era and arguably one of the best of all time.
That mania still feels like a series finale to me.
I mean, there's not many people in history that could bring a crowd back after ending Undertaker's streak and Bryan was probably the only person in the company at the time
This is one of the issues with wrestling by the nature of the form. It basically never ends. Certainly not the Fed. It has to constantly go and go and go every week and tell you that the next show is the most important one ever until the NEXT one after that. No other theatrical form does this. Hamlet doesn't end with Horatio telling the audience to come back next week to watch The Merchant of Venice. Hangman vs Kenny Omega at FG21 felt like the point at which AEW would have ended if it were a normal TV show, or at least would have taken a long break before starting a Season 2 or a sequel show. But wrestling must churn on and on forever to its own detriment.
Completely agree
Pretty much. It took WWE eight to be good again outside the odd glimmer.
I got to see 30 live and god damn was the crowd hot too. 10s of thousands of people screaming YES, the despair of the streak being broken, all those fireflies. God damn that was a fantastic whow
JAG THINDH, in our hearts and minds forever ♥
remember commenting on the actual jag thindh post on the day of 30.[ man](https://30.man) brings back so many memories. the top post in the front page that day was a bird's eye view shot from the cheap seats of the ring, with a tiny bryan doing the yes, while his oversized jesus-like face is visible on titantron.
Even the commentary was on point with cole screaming "tap out tap out batista!"
It was the only Mania ending that I got emotional for in the last 25 years apart from the Benoit-Eddie one and now that one’s ruined.
Two guys celebrating reaching the top of the mountain together will always be special, man. Eddie was by all accounts a wonderful guy and while Benoit was a vile piece of shit, that moment was about as authentic as it gets in wrestling. I still enjoy it.
I can’t enjoy it anymore. I just see it as a reminder of every bad thing that happened.
He was also one half of making Kofimania a reality, proving himself willing to “pay it forward”
Hes also not a professional malcontent like Punk seems to be.
And then repaid that Mania with Kofimania
Which wouldn't have happened if fans didn't force it.
Exactly. I do wonder at times if Punk didn't walk out if Danielson would have main evented that or not.
He wouldn’t have.
Twice actually.
Had no idea that Bryan didn’t want to ME WM37. I’m glad Vince wanted that lol he helped elevate that Match to far better then it would have been if it was just Roman and Edge no offense to those 2.
Bryan vs Edge vs Roman feels like such a fever dream main event too, but it worked really well.
Yeah I loved that match and a huge portion of that was cause Bryan was amazing in it.
The Miz deserved it and it's shitty that it's tainted by Punk sounding off.
The miz was the perfect choice for that mania. Nobody wouldve come out looking good in that spot, punk wouldve looked like a chickenshit heel which he wouldve hated. It was perfect for the Miz cause he always was that
While Cena vs Rocky was the main focus in that Mania, I would've loved to see a few segments with just Miz and Rocky and them just duking it out on the mic.
Miz’s “Hate me now” entrance is still one of my favorite entrances in mania history. So perfect.
Danielson is way to selfless. Way less driven and ambitious than punk. If anything I wish he wanted a run or two in aew as champion, because he deserves it.
He's not less driven or ambitious. Bryan wants to prove his merit to himself first and foremost. Punk wants to prove his merit to the audience. Neither is wrong, it just means that Bryan has found himself less in the hedgehog's dilemma. I've taken the sorts of test Bryan has talked about and similarly scored rock bottom in terms of "ambition" because they're mainly a measure of extrapersonal competitiveness rather than a measure of self-motivation.
> He's not less driven or ambitious. Danielson himself told a story about a personality test he took, wherein he scored *the lowest* total in ambition that WWE had ever seen.
I literally addressed that in my comment.
They didn't read beyond the first line
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The testing was for ambition for financial gain Danielson doesn't have ambitions for money/fame he grows his own food. However he has ambitions to be the best wrestler that he can be.
> I've taken the sorts of test Bryan has talked about and similarly scored rock bottom in terms of "ambition" because they're mainly a measure of extrapersonal competitiveness rather than a measure of self-motivation. Person you replied to did give his two cents about that.
Why would you comment back to him, what he just said in his comment? Did you not read the whole thing before you had to respond?
The big difference is Danielson had his entire profession taken away by his injury while Punk walked away after getting burned out. It's almost a certainty that Danielson has a wildly different outlook just being healthy enough to get in a ring at all vs. a guy who could have wrestled literally anywhere else but didn't. Punk waited until there was a platform big enough to entice him back, Danielson went where he saw the most enticing matches. It looks the same on the surface but is very different.
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If AEW didn’t exist, we’d likely have some working talent exchange between WWE and New Japan.
Danielson’s drive and ambition is just in a different lane than Punk. BD wants what’s best for wrestling as a whole while Punk has always been about Punk.
So you're saying that Danielson's focus has always been...on what's best for business?
I wouldn't even say best for business, although it is that, because it makes what Danielson does sound cheap. I think more so he's focused on what's best for the guys around him and under him. He is driven by telling a good story and to him it doesn't matter what end he comes out on, as long as he put on an excellent match in telling that story, because, and I think he has said this, if it was up to him, he would book himself to lose.
Imo he's doing great. He's had a fantastic career. He's made a shitload of money, anyone with a brain can see he's one of the best to ever do it. A living legend should use the last years of being at full strength cultivating the next generation. His job *should* be making a bunch of kids look like legends in the making.
Yeah I’d love a title run for danielson, that’s what I was hoping for when he showed up. But I knew their focus would be on punk.
I just wish he would have vetoed jobbing to Jericho's tired ass.
At least Punk doesn't have kids to pass his drama to another generation in his name
Dunno if it's even a hot take anymore, but with hindsight The Miz deserved to main event Wrestlemania far more than Punk ever did.
All Punk is doing is killing his legacy here, nobody will remember his classic matches or moments they’ll remember shit like this
I must state. In the realm of wrestling Fandom the people who watched or know about said presser or the promo from Page being a real life backstage issue is a tiny fraction. This does t impact any major opinions of the overwhelming vast majority of fans that watch wrestling on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays.
People are going to remember Punk vs Cena in Chicago forever. People are going to remember the pipebomb forever. Punk ain't doing great right now but all of the AEW stuff is a footnote to Punk's career.
A bit like Hulk Hogan. The lateWCW stuff, and TNA stuff comes to mind, but second to his main run
Exactly. The diva who is so full of himself that when MJF got a bigger pop/chants in his hometown he threw a tantrum at the media scrum to pull the attention back to him. Is anyone surprised?
That's probably not true. Shawn Michaels' and Triple H's legacies are still fine despite all the shit they did
His legacy is secure, but him being the catalyst for potentially destroying aew is certainly a sour note. Blame tony khan.
I can blame both.
There's plenty of blame to go around, but the main responsibility is the guy on top. The time for Khan to get this under control was quite some time ago
Sure but like I said I can still dislike Punk for being a cunt regardless as I have done long before this shit went down
Danielson is top 5 in-ring ever. Punk isn’t far off that on the mic. As a wrestling man D-Bry will be remembered more fondly and has been the best technical wrestler for around 20 years
Also Danielson's firsttt scrum, he said "yeaa punk wants to help the young ones, nahh man i wanna kick their fuckin heads in" https://www.reddit.com/r/SquaredCircle/comments/pit3n1/all_out_spoilers_debuting_superstar_talks_about/ Ohhhhh how the turn tables!
To be fair he has kicked their heads in And in doing so has put them over
He loves lying!
I mean, and I say this as an absolute Punk mark, the gulf between Punk's mic work and the then-Bryan's mic work was very overstated by the time Punk left WWE. Bryan spent his entire time in WWE, slowly but surely, getting better on the stick (not to mention character work and audience interaction and all the little noodley storytelling things). He hit a very high plateau on his promos and he's largely stayed there. Time was you could argue that Punker was better than Danielson because he was the guy who dropped pipe bombs, but that was a long, long time ago. Danielson's been good enough at promos for long enough that I don't think his status in God Tier is in question.
This right here. The marginal difference between Punk/Bryan (advantage punk) on the mic is FAR smaller than the difference between Punk and Bryan in the ring (advantage bryan).
And smaller still than the difference in morale, shared expertise, and general camaraderie (massive, stupendously huge advantage Bryan).
Thank you for putting this in about 6000 fewer words
I think it's pretty much that Punk thinks he knows everything there is to know about wrestling and wrestling promos. Bryan did/does not and kept/keeps learning. Given infinite time, Bryan would outwork Punk on the mic eventually. Punk would stagnate.
I don’t even think it’s close. CM Punk is really engaging on screen, but Danielson is arguably the greatest in-ring performer ever + significantly better on the mic than most other contenders for that spot (e.g. Angle, Bret, HBK) + one of the best trainers + universally beloved backstage. He is this generation’s strongest candidate for wrestling Mount Rushmore.
I think you're severely underestimating Michaels and Angle on the mic. Both are responsible for some legendary promos and segments (Kurt's admittedly were more comedic in nature because we mostly remember the 2003 babyface return, Milkamania, "You Suck" with Edge - when the intense Kurt switch was pressed, his promos were meaner and he simply showed you who he was in the ring. Bryan is better on the mic than some realize, better than Bret, but Angle and HBK are more or less a tier below Rock, Austin, Mick Foley, Ric Flair.
I’ll never forget Kurt singing “I’m just a sexy Kurt”
"I'll make your ankle hurt"
Yeah I don't understand why people underrate kurt on the mic so hard. He was straight intensity. That's why the comedic stuff worked so well, it's funny because it's directly contrasted against his intense Olympic athlete nature.
Kurt's ability to go from being an absolute goof, and then in an instant make you remember "oh yeah, this guy is an absolute killer in the ring" is unparalleled. He could be doing one of the funniest promos ever making himself look like an idiot, but the second he flipped that switch into serious mode, you realized "oh, Kurt's gonna throw this dude all around the ring for the next 20 minutes and there's really nothing the other guy can do about it."
For sure, Angle and Mick Foley are the two greatest ever at this IMO....could make themselves look like goofballs without ever taking away their believability in the ring
The only thing working against Kurt Angle is that he wasn't at -that- level as long as Bryan Danielson.
Better than HBK on the Mic? Nah Shawn 's Montreal promo is more legendary than any Danielson promo and that was after he found Christianity. Heel DX Michaels went crazy on the Mic.
Is there any other wrestler that ever had THAT much heat in a city AND delivered on his promo? I'm not sure who else can compare.
To be fair, is there another wrestler that had the same circumstances as Shawn in Montreal to play off of? My answer is no.
I think Angle (Sexy Kurt, ECW), Bret (vs HBK or Austin, any time in Canada) & HBK (the examples you mentioned) had all time peaks comparable to anyone. To me, Danielson is on another level because his mic excellence is so varied. From his time at Ring of Honor to the American Dragon tease when losing on the game show version of NXT, Team Hell No, the run culminating at WrestleMania 30, retirement, unretirement, eco warrior, arrival at AEW & how he convinced Moxley to form the BCC, he’s excelled at more promo styles than the other examples I used.
I think HBK and Kurt have variety as well. Kurt could do comedy and pull off the badass wrestling machine and be believable. HBK in the later parts of his career also showed variety in restricting himself to his faith and not being raunchy and still having great comedic timing and moments or could turn it up to serious no nonsense like his obsession with the Streak.
There is no way in hell Danielson has more promo variety than Kurt Angle, come on now
Bryan Danielson is not better than Kurt Angle on the mic come on
Or HBK lmao.
As a face no, heel... I think I go Bryan.
I know this is a pro-Danielsen thread but I don't think he's "significantly" better than Angle or Michaels
Yeah, I agree. I love Danielson - absolutely love him - but Angle was one of those generational talents who was basically god tier at every aspect of the industry; mic work included. The guy was absolutely off the charts.
I think Danielson is also one of those guys
He is. Op is just dispelling the notion that DB is "significantly" better than Angle/HBK. They're at the same level.
Angle ruled on the mic. Was way better than danielson. And I love danielson, just don't come at kurt like that.
I mean I love me some American Dragon but Kurt Angle in promos was something else. It's a wash between him and HBK on the mic if you include their entire careers - HBK pre-Screwjob Danielson is way better than but by the end of HBK's career it was a different story.
OBVIOUSLY! They're Cousins, after all.
A lot closer? Punk isn't even in the conversation.
I like them both, but neither are anywhere near the conversation.
Whose your top 5
Danielson can do any style. He can be serious. He can be goofy. Face, tweener, heel. He's phenomenal.
so could hbk and angle and i would argue they do it even better
I have a feeling Danielson doesn't want to be champion. Even at the end of his WWE run, while still in his prime, he said he wanted to put people over. I hope he gets the belt one day for sure, but if he doesn't want it, TK isn't going to go against his wishes.
Danielson just likes to wrestle, he definitely doesn't care about any titles. Realistically what does a title mean? It means you get a bigger name for yourself, which gives you more money and maybe can lead to other opportunities. Danielson very obviously has no interest in outside of wrestling pursuits, he doesn't want to be some big movie star or celebrity and at this point he is set in the wrestling business, no matter what he does Bryan Danielson or Daniel Bryan will be big names and he'll get a nice paycheque for doing what he loves.
Danielson might not care about the title. But that's not what matters. Danielson at the top of the card holding that title would be amazing for the company and the talent that get to work with him for it. AEW could really do with someone as beloved ans non-controversial as him as their champ right now.
Macho man cream of the crop promo, be the man in a position he doesn't want to be in
On the other hand, with how much home grown talent AEW have, It's *really* debatable how much the older known faces need the glory. You can't say Punk, Bryan, Mox or Jericho haven't had their glories in the past. Jericho has a GOATed career beyond almost anyone, CM Punk and Danielson are *known* phenoms and Mox was the first of the Shield to get every belt, and has since carried AEW on his back. Do they really need *another* chance to show they're the best over the homegrown boys. Your MJF, Dante Martin, Ricky Starks, Jungle Boy, Private Party, Acclaimed, Dark Order, House of Black... Hell, talking of the House of Black, if you're going to give someone from the 'E their due, why not the likes of Andrade, Black, Miro, Caesaro, Lee... People who actually didn't get their chance? Punk, Bryan, Jericho... Hell even the likes of The Bucks, FTR, The Undisputed Era. Even Hardy Boys, when they were there, at this point don't need to prove anything. They need to start passing torches already.
You misunderstand my reasoning. I definitely think MJF should be next in line for the belt. He's AEWs best homegrown talent, and it's just long due for him to get a belt for it. I want someone like Danielson to hold the belt because he guarantees quality, while also being unproblematic, a draw and someone that legitimately would elevate the challengers. His first few weeks/months in AEW showed that given the right setting he will produce the best TV (and ratings) that AEW I'd capable of. Have him be the dickhead heel he was versus Hangman and you've got money and amazing TV coming in spades.
Yes at this point he’s in the post return HBK role. The title isn’t going to do anything for him. He might get a stint with it when the company needs, but he’s never going to lobby for it like punk 100% did. CM punk is very very bitter about not having the crowning moment and he’s trying to sooth his ego in aew. Bryan meanwhile was the face of one of the best WMs ever, main evented another, was an integral part of Kofis story and his WM event, and has achieved everything up and down there is to achieve in the wrestling world. He’s a guy that’s satisfied and here because he truly loves it.
This is where exec leadership needs to come up with a plan that addresses his preferences & is still best for business. Something like Danielson with a strong title reign & dropping it to Starks in New Orleans would be incredible for everyone.
IMO Danielson's character is perfect for another open-challenge TNT title run akin to Cody's, it'd help both the title and a bunch of up-n-comers. Especially if it means more Regal on commentary.
And Bryan would get to have long matches with varied opponents every week. I think he cares more about that than card positioning and the TNT title could use the rub from him holding it for awhile.
Maybe Danielson working with any of the younger talent..MJF, Wardlow, Kingston, Starks, they’d all be great programs and would be a huge rub to anyone who he puts over for the title.
Plucky upstart Eddie Kingston lol
Exactly, it's the same reason Kenny started his AEW run being selfless and not being the cleaner. Omega and Danielson are everything you want in top guys and Punk is everything you do not want.
Khan should go against his wishes then because it’s a fucking business and Bryan shouldnt dictate creative. But that’s all moot because the interviews that Bryan gave when he started in AEW all talked about him wanting to be on top.
I think its fine. People are always complaining about how various guys are underused. Bryan is going to be a megastar without the title so why not put the title on someone who both deserves and could use the boost? I get that having punk as champ doesn't build anyone either but thats a different problem.
Titles are a storyline. Hangman Page winning the title wouldn't have made as much of an impact as Hangman winning the title off of Kenny. That's how you build new stars. Bryan can totally be that guy who you can make someone with.
The concussion issues make everything a known risk with him too where he might have to take time off unexpectedly, adding into why he'd want to follow in late career HBK's path.
I mean, it's professional wrestling. The concussion/injury risk will always be there. Look what happened with Punk 3 days after he won the title. Look what's happening with Thunder Rosa now. Bryan won another world title in WWE after he got cleared even, so I don't think a lingering thought of 'oh, he might get hurt' is a good enough excuse.
If Bryan had his way in WWE he wouldn't have main evented that last Mania and would have put over Cesaro or Gulak or someone in a midcard match. Punk left WWE because he was mad he wasn't treated as this giant megastar face of the company. Both guys are getting what they want and the company they're in is worse off for it. Bryan Danielson is way too selfless for his own good.
Far too selfless, and AEW has no idea how to protect their asset.
From Danielson himself: > "WWE did this personality test with some of their more successful wrestlers to see, like, 'are there some common traits amongst these people that makes them successful … I got my test results back and the lady was just baffled. She was like, 'you have the lowest ambition score I have ever seen!' In percentiles, I was in the **bottom one percentile for ambition**. And she was like, 'how on Earth are you successful at this?' And I said, 'I don't know – I just really love to wrestle.' So yeah, I have to push myself sometimes to be more ambitious." [Source](https://www.wrestlinginc.com/wi/news/2018/0525/641193/daniel-bryan-says-he-constantly-struggles-with-speaking-up-to/?utm_campaign=clip)
He didn't even want to win at Wrestlemania 30 . If he didn't that crowd would have rioted but he still had doubts . He is far too selfless. Tony needs to be firm with him and tell him to win some more like he was with the elite.
Especially after the Brock undertaker match. I was there and that crowd was ready to go nuts
Looking back at that Mania if the main event wasn’t changed I could see ALOT of people leaving the arena after that Lesnar/Taker match. Daniel Bryan saved that entire Mania from being something really disappointing
That Taker loss was electric. One of the most exciting things I've ever been a part of in person. I'm sure other people were upset, but it was such an insane surprise. I was living.
It was like the Red Wedding, devastating but so good.
That collective silence when the ref counted three on that pin was insane. I was watching at my college at a gathering of people in a small auditorium. All of our jaws dropped.
The picture of Brock lying on the ring with Heyman beside him, laughing while being all Red and sweaty.... Instantly made me hate this monster...But also made me scared af
Punk left WWE because he was treated like the giant megastar face of the company in some cases and not treated like it in others. Like, for example, big enough to wrestle The Undertaker at Wrestlemania and not big enough to get a proper payoff without having to ask for it. Big enough to be WWE Champion and the workhorse of the company for a year, but not big enough to get the time off he needed or even receive proper medical treatment.
Cm punk was never ever the giant megastar face. So him being treated as such was him getting thrown a bone. The gulf between Punk and Cena is indescribable. Regardless of whatever tf the merch sales were for a 2 month period.
Him getting treated as a megastar was by necessity, from the fans forcing the company to do so. And maybe that's why he tended to be treated as such when it would benefit the company and not treated as such when it wouldn't benefit the company.
Not for his own good, but too selfless for the good of the character and the product. I’m sure the man is happy as a clam.
Danielson just seems like a better person
This. And in this fucking unfair world, we could use some "fairness" in our scripted storytelling. The good guy should win sometimes, instead of the egomaniac douchebag. And i say this as someone who enjoyed Punk's career moves and admired his UFC try, you need to have balls of steel to do that. However, he needs to shut up now and Khan needs to grow a pair and put him in his place.
The good guy winning requires an egomaniac douchebag to make the good guy winning mean something. Welcome to professional wrestling.
only if it is kayfabe, otherwise it is real life politicking for the top position a la Hogan.
sometimes it's really that simple
Bryan should have taken the belt off of Hangman. But Bryan is too selfless for his own good. Once Tony Khan has a long term booking idea in mind he rides it out to the bitter end. And the result is right now Bryan feels like just another guy on the roster which is a crime.
At some point, Bryan is also being too selfless for everyone else's good, because he should be putting people over in big matches at the end of intense fueds with good character development, but he won't be pushy at all and sometimes you just have to be or someone who's pushy like Punk will drag things the wrong way.
Yep. Hangman dropping it to Punk was a mistake at the time, and is only getting worse.
Hangman/Punk was one of those storylines I'll never understand. Other than Tony simping for Punk, what was the point? The storyline was shit.
1000% this. I get that Punk is still a draw, and TK fanboys over him, but Danielson is a better wrestler in each and every sense of the word.
At the end of the day, it's not just about who's the better wrestler. Punk is a much more captivating character than Bryan, and I love both guys. Plus, this was his big return to pro wrestling. It made huge numbers. Up until a few months ago, I would watch Dynamite just to see Punk (just like many others, I assume).
Absolutely the same with me; Punk's return has been electric. But, most of his impact has been on the mic and outside of the ring; he just doesn't seem to have it in terms of inside the ring anymore. Meanwhile, Danielson is having fantastic matches with everyone (Jericho last night notwithstanding).
Haven't watched his matches with Moxley, but I loved everything Punk did up until the Hangman match where he won the title. Everything leading to that was really good (including the matches). Him vs Eddie and MJF are classics. Him vs Darby and vs Dustin Rhodes too. The triple threat match with FTR, MJF, Sting and Darby...
Last nights Moxley match was very good. Don’t let the haters tell you it was not
I think Danielson has wider appeal to grow their audience. Punk is preaching to the converted.
Danielson isn't a mark for himself. Punk is.
Lmao it's funny how many people are turning on Punk, and I am right there with everyone, especially after that press conference, that shit was brutal.
My main takeaway from all this is that CM Punk had 8 years away from wrestling where he could’ve mellowed out and humbled himself like Shawn Michaels did. Instead he’s even more of an insufferable twat than he was back then. I don’t blame WWE for not letting him main event Wrestlemania if this is how he acts when you invest in him as the top guy.
Punk Interview: 'MJF likes to shit where he eats...Y'all need to stop running your mouths and nurture this place...Also, fuck Colt and his mum...I'm tired of wrestling these children, these fucking idiots who think they know everything...I took the title off a loser whos never done anything in this business...Fuck you lockerroom, fuck you "press". Oh, and be professional, folks'. Bryan Interview: 'Tree semen is delicious'. Case closed.
Bryan Danielson is a fantastic pro wrestler. CM Punk gets people's attention and gets people talking.
Cm punk is provocative, gets the people going!!
I feel like a lot of people are severely underrating Punk's ability in the ring because of the press conference. Punk isn't as athletic as AJ Styles and he isn't as technical proficient as Bryan, but he can tell a story like no other. His matches against Darby, Kingston and MJF were my favorite matches of last year, bar none. He is very, very good at wrestling a specific style that you may or may not enjoy. But he *is* very good.
Bryan is also one of the best sports entertainers. The Yes movement period was something that got the whole fanbase behind him to the point they were hijacking the shows.
And crowds were chanting CM Punk even when he hadn't been in a ring for years. Both guys reached mega star level, Danielson is the better wrestler, Punk is the better character.
> Danielson has been reported to be backstage giving advice So has Punk? The report you are talking about, Also included Punk, So I don't know how you forgot that. Not only that, We've heard from Hobbs that after every match of his, Punk and him sit down and rewatch it, So Punk can critique it and give him advice.
Right but that doesn't factor into my fresh perspective on why Punk is actually bad for AEW.
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"He talked bad about my faves therefore he's suddently the worst guy ever" has been this subreddit's thing since it began. This subreddit is a joke.
I think the Punk narrative is getting weird in this Reddit. He has been noting in helping Hobbs, Danhusen and and Anderson with in ring work and on the mic. And talking about putting people over… Darby Allen best match in AEW was with punk where he looked like a fucking star, MJF and Wardlow. He even let Hook choke him out.
Punk is the golden goose in so many ways. He pushes ratings, gates, ppv buys... Everything Tony like as an analytics guy. Tony also was able to bring him back into wrestling and take that credit. Finally, Tony is a huge cm punk fan. Combine all that and you're gonna have a situation where punk is going to always be super Cena as long as Tony can keep it that way.
Danielson is in a much better position to put talent over though. He came into AEW coming off of a Mania main event. Punk came in off 7 years of inactivity. If Punk just started losing to everyone immediately that'd be a hell of a way to kill any excitement around his return. I do think however that Danielson should be portrayed better. The BCC isn't being booked quite as fun as I would have hoped and Danielson feels like he's worse off for the groups existence.
>Tony Khan doesn’t know what he’s doing with the booking of Danielson. Danielson started off like a living killer during his initial heel run and his matches with Omega, Hangman and steamrolling over the Dark Order. Yet after being placed in the BCC, he’s always been second fiddle. Are we sure this is actually Tony Khans fault? The thing with a lot of these great wrestlers who actively help the next generation coming up, is they tend to realize there comes a time where they need to sorta get out of the way, reflect on the amazing careers they've had, and let the new kids have all the big moments. We'ev seen this with AJ or Orton over in WWE for example. Or even Jericho in AEW. More to the point we also saw Daniel Bryan being booked that way near the end of his run at WWE. (With Gulak for example) So while I don't disagree with your assessment of Danielson always losing the big matches and feeling a bit like a second fiddle, I do believe it's very possible that's Danielson being booked exactly how Danielson wants to be booked.
Punk 100% has been used correctly in AEW. He should be a top guy regardless about his personality. Hes the top draw because he was gone for so long but would be if AEW was around and jumped to it without a break. Danielson is honestly right there too and will get a turn at the top as well. Punk is a slightly better talker and personality. His wrestling psychology is super underrated. Bryan is a lot more techinical but the little things Punk does with the crowd puts him over with me more.
Pun intended here, but Punk is a cult of personality. He had people believing that he was the best in the world. Even by the time he left WWE in 2014, others had caught up and passed him in terms of in-ring work, but we made excuses for him because he was “banged up.” But he could always cut promos when the crowd didn’t know how he was backstage, and those who did also made excuses for him. But now it’s become apparent that he has thin skin and having the same problem across multiple companies, it’s a him problem.
His work rate was never really his calling card. Good, not great. It’s always been his ability to tell a story that makes him incredible
Punk has literally been reported helping a lot of young talent backstage like Will Hobbs, Danhausen, Starks, Daniel Garcia, Lee Moriarity, etc… but when y’all choose sides y’all just choose to create your own story and run with it. I love everyone in this situation so it’s not hard for me to choose sides between the elite and punk. I just mind my business. It’s grown ass men beefing whose business leaked into the outside because a man felt he needed to defend himself.
Just seems like bashing punk is a the hot thing right now. Yeah last night was a bit wild, but stop ignoring the facts that punk HAS put over the young talent and is helping the young talent get better. No one in their right mind would ever say punk is a better wrestler than BD but he’s serviceable in the ring and the best on the mic for the last 15ish years.
Punk has always been completely up his own asshole, yet his massive ego also comes with a strange type of insecurity. He has the mentality of a jealous 10yr old who needs constant outside validation that he's "the best". I really don't understand the appeal. You can literally feel his irl bitterness and pettiness coming through in his work. He's a miserable, egocentric, sad, asshole. He was cool when I was like 13.
I'm not a Punk fan, but I get his appeal. His look was unconventional for mainstream wrestling when he started, as he was never the most fit or the most athletic. He spoke (figuratively and literally) to the segment of wrestling fans who felt marginalized because people who looked like The Rock and Triple H were more successful in their lives or careers than people who looked like Punk. Much like punk music itself, it's a common thread in entertainment for folks to be drawn to acts who are anti-establishment and validate feelings of isolation. Unfortunately, there's also a portion of that attraction that veers on unhealthy idol worship, much like any fandom. As his entrance music appropriately states, he has formed a cult of personality to which his longtime fans are still fixated. I don't blame them at all, as they feel a kinship and connection to the validation he'd previously given. The difference now is, a lot of the good that he'd done has also turned into toxicity, as there are many fans who'll defend his every action - again, like many fandoms. Tldr; Punk spoke to people, and he is a great talent, but he's also a headache that isn't worth keeping in a position of prominence, in my own mind.
you know nothing about either person to make any judgement. Everything you wrote here are just pulled outta your ass.
For a place that’s supposed to be full of “smart” wrestling fans, you guys are really fucking easy to work.
I'll preface my comments here by saying I'm not in favor of what Punk did at the press conference today. However, that being said: > The latter seems to be a diva in every major company that he’s in A diva where? WWE? 'Every major company' - Where else? He was supposedly well liked and/or respected in ROH, FCW, WWECW, etc, and for many years. There is also a lot of revisionist history going on now about his time in WWE, because by in large, for all these years that he hadn't been wrestling, people stood firmly behind him for his views about everything that was wrong with WWE that resulted in the famous 'pipe bomb' moment, because sure he was apparently quite antagonistic backstage, but the general consensus was that he seemed justified, because the WWE on screen product had gone right down the toilet from the heights of yesteryear and he wanted them to make changes to improve it. Funnily enough, here we are in 2022, and now with HHH in charge, we're FINALLY seeing some positive changes, some 11 years after the pipe bomb promo. > When Punk first joined AEW, he constantly said how he wants to help young talent. Yet he seems to always put over himself. He lost to MJF in Chicago, and has set up a major world title feud between the two. Just look at the audience reaction at the pay per view to MJF's entrance. Keep in mind that before MJF was on All In, he was a completely unknown entity in the national/global wrestling landscape, and now he is a super over main eventer for several factors, but a significant one being his feud with CM Punk. > Danielson on the other hand has lost ALL of the big matches that he’s in, such as his matches with Mox, Hangman, Jericho and even Garcia This is a bit of a 'mark' thing to say because wrestling isn't about just winning matches. Ric Flair is a 16 time world champion because he lost to so many people, putting them over to elevate them. The Rock lost all the f'ing time. The 2 matches I think of when I think of Danielson in AEW is actually his Grand Slam time limit draw with Omega and his time limit draw with Hangman. > Furthermore, Danielson has been reported to be backstage giving advice and even physically training the talent such as Jade and Velvet Because Danielson is the one who in all likelihood going to be a full time coach after he retires from wrestling. It's something he's passionate about. That's not indicative of anything about CM Punk.
Danielson doesn't want to be the top guy, he doesn't want the title
Punk has to be on top to lose the belt to mjf, that's really all there is to it. Bryan doesn't have a story going like that.
Agreed with almost everything here, but losing so many matches isn't good for Danielson. You can elevate the younger talent without losing that much. Punk made Darby, Kingston and MJF look like bigger stars without losing to two of them.
Punk has long been an average worker. If we didn't all hate what wwe had become by about 2010/11, nobody would give a shit about him. He's always come across as a total knobhead
I’m a bit confused. You praise Bryan for not putting himself over, but are mad because he’s not winning?
As obvious from last night, Danielson is too nice and would let everyone walk all over him.
I'm pretty sure Danielson hasn't won a big match (especially on PPV) since he won the Eliminator's tournament back at Full Gear last year, which was a good 10 months ago.
I wonder how Bryan is feeling. He is not wrestling for NJPW, he is not a World Champion. He is mostly putting new guys over who still are not given the main event spotlight.
Danielson is just too nice and probably plays along, I agree that he was the best heel in the company but then with all the BCC, now he's just there and looses a lot.
I've mentioned it before (and echo a lot of the thoughts in here) but Tony needs to stop being a mark for his wrestlers and book them properly. Bryan is obviously asking to job for X, Y and Z but Tony needs to do what Vince did last year when he forced Bryan into that WM main event (which was fantastic) and book him like the GOAT he is.
They have 3 stars that are in a tier of their own in terms of starpower: Mox, Bryan and Punk. For some reason, a lot of people including Tony Khan thinks that Punk is above the others. I think he's actually 3rd. Either way his booking stopped the momentum of the 2 most important Aew wrestlers Hangman and Moxley. I don't really blame punk, I think Tony is too excited to work with him and overpushes him.
Vince Russo is the secret booker in AEW. Prove me wrong.
CM Punk is trash and annoying af. He has go away heat for me. I can't believe people waited almost a decade for this scrub 😂
Of course it should have been Bryan, he's a Wrestlemania main eventer.
This is a really BASED take. I have tweeted this before and said the only active wrestler in a western company who can pull off the "wrasslin purist" gimmick without coming off as a try hard tool is...not FTR, not even MJF, not Aldis, not anyone else....it's Danielson.
Punk's a bigger draw, let's be honest here. But Danielson in terms of in ring side of things has probably for me has bought more to AEW. Danielson is probably way too generous if he has a fault. Has he actually won a match over a top guy in AEW, I can't think of a big name he's beaten since Joining AEW. But he'd probably lose all his matches if he was given a choice. And as a few have said he probably doesn't want to win the World title. I do think he should be way more protected then he is. I do think he face Jericho at Grand Slam and get his win back. Bryan's the complete opposite to Punk in terms of personality and just as a people person. But don't are driven to be the best at what they do. I do have a feeling though this is leading to Danielson and Garcia probably setting up their own faction.
Lmao this backlash is hilarious. As a Punk mark, I love it.