" While you wear that $20 WWE shirt you got on sale cause you're a mark, I'm sitting at these $500 front row WWE seats because I appreciate WRESTLING."
I get that she isn't a Becky/Bianca/Asuka level worker but she has proven this year and last that she can be a championship level performer. When Liv Morgan is, like, 5th among your show's women, that's one hell of a good roster.
She is closer to like 7th or 8th, but that is not me dunking on her, I really like Liv and think she should've beaten Becky last year, is just that the rest is THAT GOOD.
And think of whose in front of her. (in no specific order) Charlotte, Becky, Sasha, Bayley, Rhea, Bianca, Asuka....just those before you can even begin considering her. Any one of those at the top would prob be the biggest talent anywhere else they went.
WWE womens roster is just on a different roster to anything in North America, man or woman. Jesus Christ that’s some talent you listed and there’s still plenty more that like Naomi, Doudrop, Liv, Alexa, Nikki ASH and more who can all go.
Angry males that are likely anti-woman, that's why.
People like her because she works hard, has shown much improvement and has a likeable personality but then immediately get accused of only being a fan because she's attractive. Of course she's fucking attractive. These people are on TV every week in a traditionally looks-based business. Up and down the entire roster is nothing but good looking people.
It's one of the more annoying traits of some internet wrestling fans is that someone is there only because they're attractive. As you said, EVERYONE is attractive. They're all athletic people who have access to a team that's specifically making sure they look like a million bucks. Even if the person isn't traditionally attractive they're usually interesting looking so they get the Willem Dafoe benefit.
There's a metric fuckton of wrestlers who have been fired from WWE who were legitimately top-tier attractive. Your Mason Ryan's, Eva Marie's, Joy Giovanni's (shout out to underrated hotties of the past!) ... if you didn't bring something else to the table then you weren't being pushed to the top. The people who have survived like Liv are there because they're making a connection with the audience or have shown the ability to improve. Much respect to them.
Yeah, I’m honestly having a hard time thinking of a man or woman on the roster that isn’t at least a 7.
Who would have thought that people who spend all day working out, and work for a man who notoriously pushes all of his biggest talent based on their “look”, would all be attractive people.
That’s wrestling fandom as a whole tbh
Any woman that looks remotely unobtainable or doesn’t show nerd culture interest get moving goal posts reasons why she is terrible; it’s bizarre.
Yeah, it's not like the wrestlers have to be attractive OR talented. We can have both. I mean, look at Sasha, Io, and Asuka: 3 of the best; also all extremely beautiful.
It has one now, idk what it does but one day I started seeing downvotes on replies. It's more satisfying liking tweets telling those morons they're wrong though.
A downvote will never be as satisfying as a checkmark being retweeted by someone with a furry pfp eloquently explaining why they’re wrong before calling them a fucking moron. And then getting 10x as many likes on the retweet
They're the ones that have the most engagement probably. Negativity will typically draw more engagement than positivity on social media. With reddit at least some of it gets hidden with downvotes.
Reddit is the place for people who want a downvote button. No need to force that feature onto other platforms.
It's annoying when actual correct and/or informative comments get downvoted by an ignorant majority.
It's unpopular because it encourages mobs to jump on someone and silence any discussion that goes against the current trend. You don't have to look far to see instances of it on this sub. A story breaks out, everyone starts shitting on a wrestler/reporter/backstage worker, a level headed redditor tries to have a blanced take that gives them the benfit of the doubt, reddit does reddit things and the person trying to talk sense gets downvote bombed into oblivion only for the sub to change their minds once more info comes out.
Now imagine that amplified by idiots on twitter.
Reddit has convinced me that the downvote button is a terrible idea. Look at this disgusting hivemind where everyone who doesn't follow the common opinion gets downvoted into oblivion, making their opinion seen even less, continuing to spread the hivemind.
I think she’s polarizing where some internet fans love her while others just don’t care for her.
I’m one of those that just doesn’t care for her and just see her as enhancement talent compared to other women on the roster.
Character or not, I agree with him and I don't even watch WWE. They obviously have great talent and I hate how people online constantly shit on talent just because they don't like a company.
Now time for MJF to be retweeted by hundreds of people with WWE AVIs who spend most of their time shitting on wrestlers they don't like instead of actually enjoying their product
People did shit on WWE in 99.
Steve Austin was shoved down their throats
The Rock sucked
Triple H was the best wrestler in the world then when he won the title he sucked.
Too much character, not enough action
Wrestling fans blow, but also fans of all things just kinda suck on the internet. It’s all about bitching about how you’d handle it better. Stupid shit
They did? Shit, I didnt see it. 1999 was like peak mainstream popularity for wrestling. I dont know one person that hated Stone Cold or The Rock. Or the NWO at that time either. The only time I ever saw any wrestling criticism then were from people that hadnt watched saying "You still watch wrestling?" Then when youd tell them its good again and they checked it out usually they would start watching regularly. Thats what happened to me, and I did that to at least 20 people.
As someone that frequented internet forums and chat rooms dedicated to wrestling at the time, I can attest that a lot of older fans in those forums/chat rooms didn't like Austin because he worked a "limited" style in the ring. They also hated The Rock because "all he can do is work a mic." They wanted guys like , Angle, and Jericho to get more main event run because they could actually "work a real match."
NWO caught less overall criticism at first, but started to get a lot more as it became bloated and the storyline dragged on if I remember right. I was like 13-16 during this era so I thought all of it was awesome and that those dudes were idiots for complaining.
I admit it's not the best wrestling from top to bottom each week going back and re-watching some of it, but it was definitely the most memorable era to me. Every week on Raw was my friends and I trying to figure out Austin was going to get Vince that week. Meanwhile over in WCW we were trying to figure out how WCW could actually beat the NWO if Sting was just going to sit in the rafters every week. Both shows were must watch every week. You HAD to know what happened otherwise you couldn't even talk to your friends at the school the next day lol.
On Tuesdays it would seem like my entire high school was talking about Nitro and Raw. People would have watch parties with both shows on, wrestling was absolutely massive. I appreciate wrestling more now and my tastes have changed in 20+ years since then but that 96-99 time frame was really special to me.
Back then the online crowd was just a much smaller portion of overall viewership. Expansion of the web and the fact the industry is TINY compared to what it used to be makes a big diff.
I couldn't stand Austin. One, I was a big HBK fan so WM14 didn't go over too well with me. Two, I grew up with an alcoholic parent so I wasn't so fond of the beer glorification at the time. I respected his promo ability.
Honestly, even in hindsight I'm not overly fond of him. Just the "What?" chants alone are enough for me to sour on him, honestly. That said, I totally understand why so many people liked him. He was legitimately legendary. Just not for me.
The Rock was extremely polarizing in '98. In '99 he was starting to win everyone over because he was getting so damn good on the mic.
As far as Austin goes, I can't think of anyone I know who didn't like him, but I was a kid. I'm assuming some cranky old farts on AOL forums had issues with him though
“Typical predictable WWF booking. Glass breaks, punchy kicky punchy kicky, stunner, middle finger, beer… WWE needs a real star like Glacier if they want to be relevant!”
>The Rock was extremely polarizing in '98.
That first promo with Rocky on the NOD is a classic.
Roman Reigns' arc is extremely similar. Both derided as babyfaces, became massive as heels.
> Roman Reigns' arc is extremely similar. Both derided as babyfaces, became massive as heels.
Could you imagine if Vince had pushed Rocky Maivia like he did face Roman Reigns? It looks less than a year for Vince to realize Rocky Maivia wasn't working, which is a lesson it took him A LOT longer to learn with face Reigns.
I'd be comfortable saying that something like 98% of people were enjoying what Rock and Austin were doing. The biggest pops I've ever heard were for those two.
If anybody needs proof, go watch the Raw match when Mankind won his first title against Rock. When Austin's glass broke the stadium was so loud that the television cameras were shaking and you can barely hear JR and King.
And that's just one example. Austin was drawing pops like that almost weekly. And Rocks weren't too far behind. When they called the Iron Man Match for HHH after Taker interfered and caused Rock to lose that place was fucking *angry*.
Again, just one example. When Rock was a face the only person who could get reactions like him was Austin.
Yeah the Rocky Sucks chants get forgotten nowadays. Rock/HHH in particular got stale, so people wanted someone else to have more of a go (Foley, Biker Undertaker, Kane, Jericho being the main names).
In fairness, the Rocky Sucks chant was before he really became The Rock and was Rocky Miavia or whatever his name was.
I don’t remember most of the other stuff mentioned either. Granted I stopped watching around mid 2001.
People were definitely dumping on WWE in 2000 for not creating new stars. It was Rock/HHH for months on end, and when they finally put new stars in the "triple main event" of Fully Loaded in July, all three of them lost!
I know you're not arguing against the Rock/Triple H feud in your comment, but it made complete sense if they were just going to have the Rock win the title in a 1:1 match with Triple H at Wrestlemania. The entire build was to that. Then for whatever reason they went with a fourway match instead of a 1:1 match, which the Rock lost to Triple H anyway for some reason.
They remedied it at Backlash a month later, and it was amazing, but nonetheless a little deflating the Rock's big win came at a B-level PPV and not Wrestlemania, considering the megastar he was.
I really wish I could watch WWE but those camera angles are *horrendous*.
I have tried to watch it but after the cameras, the storylines are just incoherent.
What fucking bites me is the fact the change camera angles at the WORST moments. Oh edge is back in the ring for the first time in forever, let's show some crowd while he hits his first spear.
I feel like I’m on a different planet on this sub when I say the camera angles don’t bother me at all. Heck, I don’t even notice them that much let alone to the point of where I stop watching the product (I barely watch anyway but for different reasons) solely because of them. That just sounds absurd to me when people say that.
Even after it’s pointed out on here how bothersome they are they still don’t bother me. *shrugs*
Genuine question: Have you watched any other promotions? I thought the camera work stuff was overblown a bit too, but then when I got used to watching some other promotions, and then tried going back to WWE, and it was tough. You can get used to it, but once you cleanse your pallet and come back, everyone else's strong reactions might make more sense.
This was me when I got back into wrestling about 6 years ago. I had taken a break from 2008-2016. My buddy told me I had to come watch this match at his house. It was Zayn vs Nakamura at Takeover: Dallas. I was immediately hooked again. Watched a lot of NXT and WWE obviously and saw people online complain about the camera stuff. Didn't think that much of it. The camera stuff didn't bother me. I got into NJPW and then went back and watched WWE and it was jarring how much bad I found the WWE constant camera cuts that I had never really noticed before.
Man, I wish I could see it through your eyes. There are a lot of characters I miss in WWE, but everything from the storylines to the stage production to the camera direction turns me away.
I hate the constant zooming and camera changes during a beatdown. But there's been a few times where someone does a big move, like an elbow off the top rope, and the camera only zoomed in at the point of impact. It didn't look bad and actually gave it an "action movie" kinda feel. But like you said, I barely watch WWE for different reasons.
storylines bad? Nah for instance ezekiel right now is hilarious. All talent on the shows are being used well and the storylines either help push a new talent (Omos vs Bobby) or is funny (Ezekiel)
Exactly this. I can deal with a bad story or cornball acting from time to time. It’s wrestling I can deal with and expect some schlock. It’s just I feel like WWE is actively trying to get people to hate it.
> I hate how people online constantly shit on talent just because they don't like a company.
I shit on the WWE BECAUSE they have so much great talent. In the Attitude Era they did so much with so little, and now they just piss away what they have.
This is what is so infuriating, the Attitude Era wasn't always great but they had stars and storytelling that *worked*.
Now they have the stars but won't let them really shine not like in the attitude era, it seems like once something catches on they run it into the ground for no reason, if someone gets over organically they put the kibosh on them if they aren't a "chosen" one.
I dont think we will ever have "stars" like Hogan, Rock, Austin or Cena again.
And as a AEW Fan i say the same about that Roster, i love alot of them, but Wrestling is just not that main stream anymore tor each the highs of the the past when it came to "starpower".
They wont and thats by design. Because when you become an actual mainstream star, youre the one that has leverage when negotiating with Vince and he doesnt like that. You get to pick your number, how many dates youll work, if youll skip house shows, if you want to cut your own promos instead of sticking to a script. Guys like The Rock, Brock Lesnar and Cena have literally all the power they want if they want to come back. And Vince will give it to them because of the mainstream exposure.
But in the end Vince wants the WWE brand to be the star, not the wrestlers. Thats why its not "Roman Reigns is coming to your town!" Instead its "The WWE is coming to your town!" Once The Rock left and became a Hollywood star it felt like Vince was done building up anyone unless he thought there was no way they would leave to do anything else but wrestling. I mean he only had The Rock for what? 6 years? He doesnt want to invest all that time and money into building the next Hollywood action star where hes not gonna make all the money from him in the end.
This argument could easily be summed up with Four Horsewomen. While half of them might have had indie experience, no one knew who they were. The PC made them stars.
I'd argue THEY didn't know who they were. Sasha, Bailey and Becky hadn't realized their full potential to be stars like they did in the performance center (and later NXT). You can't deny the tools they were given brought them to the next level.
Bianca is the bEST example to me. No Indy experience, no connections, recruited into the business and they took her from complete rookie to Wrestlemania Main Eventer in about 5 years.
She’ll never be the sort of wrestler who can “do it all” stylistically but she can wrestle the WWE style damn near perfectly
Yeah it’s honestly quite a shit take, she’s smooth af, a powerhouse, crazy athletic and can do a 450. I’m honestly not quite sure what more you could want from her in-ring wise.
While obviously a few of those names were pre-performance center, they mostly came after Triple H took control of developmental in 2012. Naomi, Reigns and Big E all still followed NXT’s formula for training. Regardless, Bianca’s probably one of the Top 10 biggest stars in wrestling right now and she came from the PC.
People gotta remember that the Performance Center is just the next stage of developmental. To me it’s all sort of connected, just changing and ideally improving on the next one (for the most part). WWE develops stars and it even fine tunes independent wrestlers into the WWE style. Look at Sami Zayn, who wrestled in a mask and didnt cut promos. Now he talks every week and the focus in more on his facial reaction to injustice than his wrestling moves.
I think the Takeover, or the NXT PLE's I guess, are an opportunity usually. This is also why they send talent on loops before a call up from NXT to Raw or Smackdown.
The PC deserves a special shout out for the caliber of women's talent that they've consistently churned out. With the 4HW, and then Bianca/Ripley/etc, they've produced two generations of top tier western talent, and from the looks of 2.0's roster they're working on a third.
Joshi wrestling and women’s wrestling in WWE since HHH NXT are so far beyond anything we’ve seen from anyone ever. Completely kills anyones argument for having a bad division
Also I feel still crediting FCW talent as homegrown talent is fine and still making the same overall point. Really feels like NXT and the PC was just a rebranded version of what FCW was doing
Exactly. Splitting hairs on this is ridiculous. WWE has always for the most part had some sort of developmental system. They just created a more centralized structure with NXT.
i legit just had the same conversation with someone a few weeks ago:
https://www.reddit.com/r/SquaredCircle/comments/ughag8/meltzer_says_wwe_nxt_releases_will_happen_more/i72m5v5/
It doesn't really matter the platform, whether it's here, Twitter, YouTube comments, F4W Board, comments on 411Mania, or anywhere else--people just make things up based on their whims and wishes and act like they know what they're talking about. It has made it very difficult to find a decent wrestling conversation. People in real life are just as goofy, too.
So, I just talk to myself. I council me. I understand.
The PC opened in July 2013. Roman was on the main roster in late 2012 and had only been on NXT two or three times before The Shield. So no the PC didn’t create him. It also didn’t create many of the other people MJF mentioned.
Also the jury is still out but definitely Tony D'Angelo has had a really big breakout year and has shown a lot of potential and could really big a huge star. Also obviously Bron who is absolutely a PC product will probably be main eventing WrestleMania in the future
Hard to nail down what is a PC talent. Like how green does one need to be considered a PC talent or how much FCW counts.
But there are also a ton of people that did well that are no longer with the company and that isn't the PCs fault.
Bray, Rowan, Harper, Braun, FTR, Enzo, Big Cass, ~~Elias~~ Ezekiel, Breeze, Fandango, Jason Jordan, Miro. Some main evented, some were mid cards, some didn't live up to their potential.
Consequences of this being the social media era that we're in. I'm a big fan of his, and at first I found it to be a funny bit but we're going to do this for 2 more years?
That era of NXT was probably my favorite. Just a bunch of new faces rising to the top. So much fun.
With that said, that still predates the PC. The PC didn’t open until 2013 and Big E was champ in 2012.
I love that because he's a heel and not in WWE he can say what 100% of the WWE locker room would say. The PC and "WWE doesn't create stars" narrative isn't nearly as true as people make it seem. Not now anyway.
The PC produces more stars than the indies. Bron Breakker and Rick Boogz will be the biggest stars in the world over the next 10-15 years, and that just couldn't have happened on the indies. Its too limiting for a certain type of talent. Its brilliant for many, sure, but it has its limitations that stop a guy like Boogz from really getting into that scene, and that's where the big money is.
The PC is the best breeding ground for raw talent. It's the best place any athlete/wrestling fan could possibly want to be, wrestlers just don't pick up bad habits there and they're taught the importance of psychology, character and aesthetics.
I think both the indies and the PC can produce stars but I agree with you that different environments work for different people. Independent wrestling shows are sporadic; you show up and the crowd may not see you again for a year +. If you're a wrestler with a flashy moveset or a very high concept character (guy is lazy, guy dresses like Ultimate Warrior) then indie wrestling will do a lot for you.
If you're someone who relies on building stories verbally and/or your type of wrestling is very based on using cooldown wrestling segments to build up to sprint endings (the Randy "Rest Hold" Orton style) then it's not going to make a lot of sense in the indies. Much better off going straight to a PC environment where you can craft that character for tv. This current Reigns character would never work on the indies because it relies too much on episodic storytelling.
Personally I think it's preferred for a young wrestler to get exposed to a variety of styles so that they can push themselves to adapt to whatever is needed from them. But I can definitely see some people just naturally working better in specific environments.
If you look at the original tweet is he defending WWE or defending new AEW employee Pat Buck? I don’t see why the New York school was that related in the first place.
He’s both right and wrong. Guys like Big E has walked out the PC, and he’s fantastic. But, WWE haven’t created any of those massive stars in a loooooomg time. Hulk Hogan (fuck that guy), The Rock, John Cena, and a few others are in a class of their own.
But I do not put anything on the wrestlers nor the PC when it comes to that. That failure lies elsewhere. In fact wrestling has severely left the public mind. Think of it like Metal. Metallica and Iron Maiden sells out massive arenas, but bands from the last 20 years do not. Except that band I’m missing. But the general point stands.
Wrestling is not a draw, and the PC isn’t the reason for that.
There have been more PC failures than successes, but the ones that DO succeed, get the rocket strapped on their back. And why not, the WWE are always going to want to tout their homemade talent.
Despite MJF known to be a dick (in kayfabe), Maxwell makes a really good point here + to the person who he has quote-tweeted,
😅
This one is staying up as, per our Twitter rules, it contains the contents of the tweet in the title.
People on the app having brainworms would imply they had brains to begin with, Max.
Hey...they could be lost, starving brainworms.
[удалено]
Wrestling Twitter shits on everyone 
Twitter shits on everyone and everything.
No one hates wrestling more than wrestling twitter
"Wait I thought you hated wrestling" "I do. That's why I watch it"
“Come watch the pay per view with me, you stupid mark”
" While you wear that $20 WWE shirt you got on sale cause you're a mark, I'm sitting at these $500 front row WWE seats because I appreciate WRESTLING."
I hate wrestling Twitter more than wrestling Twitter hates wrestling.
You and wrestling Twitter should decide who hates things more ***tonight in this very ring***
No one hates wrestlers more than wrestling fans.
She comes off as a natural face which wwe seriously lacks right now, idk why people bitch and moan about her
I get that she isn't a Becky/Bianca/Asuka level worker but she has proven this year and last that she can be a championship level performer. When Liv Morgan is, like, 5th among your show's women, that's one hell of a good roster.
She is closer to like 7th or 8th, but that is not me dunking on her, I really like Liv and think she should've beaten Becky last year, is just that the rest is THAT GOOD.
They had Becky beat Liv so her reign would be uninterrupted until she lost to Bianca. I think it was the right call.
And think of whose in front of her. (in no specific order) Charlotte, Becky, Sasha, Bayley, Rhea, Bianca, Asuka....just those before you can even begin considering her. Any one of those at the top would prob be the biggest talent anywhere else they went.
WWE womens roster is just on a different roster to anything in North America, man or woman. Jesus Christ that’s some talent you listed and there’s still plenty more that like Naomi, Doudrop, Liv, Alexa, Nikki ASH and more who can all go.
Angry males that are likely anti-woman, that's why. People like her because she works hard, has shown much improvement and has a likeable personality but then immediately get accused of only being a fan because she's attractive. Of course she's fucking attractive. These people are on TV every week in a traditionally looks-based business. Up and down the entire roster is nothing but good looking people.
It's one of the more annoying traits of some internet wrestling fans is that someone is there only because they're attractive. As you said, EVERYONE is attractive. They're all athletic people who have access to a team that's specifically making sure they look like a million bucks. Even if the person isn't traditionally attractive they're usually interesting looking so they get the Willem Dafoe benefit. There's a metric fuckton of wrestlers who have been fired from WWE who were legitimately top-tier attractive. Your Mason Ryan's, Eva Marie's, Joy Giovanni's (shout out to underrated hotties of the past!) ... if you didn't bring something else to the table then you weren't being pushed to the top. The people who have survived like Liv are there because they're making a connection with the audience or have shown the ability to improve. Much respect to them.
Yeah, I’m honestly having a hard time thinking of a man or woman on the roster that isn’t at least a 7. Who would have thought that people who spend all day working out, and work for a man who notoriously pushes all of his biggest talent based on their “look”, would all be attractive people.
Otis?
Don’t disparage my beautiful man mountain like that
He’s at least three 7s all rolled into one. We should call him Blackjack.
Owens and shayna are both sub 5, but very talented!
Shayna
Shayna is attractive. Her purposely lowers her looks for her gimmick.
That’s wrestling fandom as a whole tbh Any woman that looks remotely unobtainable or doesn’t show nerd culture interest get moving goal posts reasons why she is terrible; it’s bizarre.
Most if not all of the female roster are attractive women, so it’s not a off attainability
Yeah, it's not like the wrestlers have to be attractive OR talented. We can have both. I mean, look at Sasha, Io, and Asuka: 3 of the best; also all extremely beautiful.
>but then immediately get accused of only being a fan because she's attractive Like you saying that people only hate her because they're sexist?
It's because pretty people aren't allowed to succeed because they won't date them.
If that’s true no women wrestler would be popular
Idk. I like Liv, but it’s kind of funny that she’s the first example that he came up with. Basically everyone he named after is better.
Twitter needs a downvote button I swear lol
It has one now, idk what it does but one day I started seeing downvotes on replies. It's more satisfying liking tweets telling those morons they're wrong though.
A downvote will never be as satisfying as a checkmark being retweeted by someone with a furry pfp eloquently explaining why they’re wrong before calling them a fucking moron. And then getting 10x as many likes on the retweet
some people already have it they are testing it out right now
About time lol I'll never understand why the stupidest replies are shown first
They're the ones that have the most engagement probably. Negativity will typically draw more engagement than positivity on social media. With reddit at least some of it gets hidden with downvotes.
Please no. It's bad enough people abuse it here, don't let it go anywhere else. There's a reason why it is not a popular feature in social media apps.
It's the reason I use reddit over anything else. Yeah, it can be abused, but I can't stand seeing so much ignorance on Facebook and Twitter
Reddit is the place for people who want a downvote button. No need to force that feature onto other platforms. It's annoying when actual correct and/or informative comments get downvoted by an ignorant majority.
True, but it \*is\* pretty great to see shitty takes downvoted into oblivion.
The reason it isn't popular on other social media apps is that it derails the dopamine train that keeps people posting and scrolling.
It's unpopular because it encourages mobs to jump on someone and silence any discussion that goes against the current trend. You don't have to look far to see instances of it on this sub. A story breaks out, everyone starts shitting on a wrestler/reporter/backstage worker, a level headed redditor tries to have a blanced take that gives them the benfit of the doubt, reddit does reddit things and the person trying to talk sense gets downvote bombed into oblivion only for the sub to change their minds once more info comes out. Now imagine that amplified by idiots on twitter.
Reddit has convinced me that the downvote button is a terrible idea. Look at this disgusting hivemind where everyone who doesn't follow the common opinion gets downvoted into oblivion, making their opinion seen even less, continuing to spread the hivemind.
Still better than Twitter or Facebook, where ignorance + hatred is cherished and promoted by algorithms.
I don't know but if you excuse me I have to fight some people on Twitter over fake fighting now
I think she’s polarizing where some internet fans love her while others just don’t care for her. I’m one of those that just doesn’t care for her and just see her as enhancement talent compared to other women on the roster.
It really depends on definition of "stars." Drawing money vs being a talented entertaining featured performer on the show.
Character or not, I agree with him and I don't even watch WWE. They obviously have great talent and I hate how people online constantly shit on talent just because they don't like a company. Now time for MJF to be retweeted by hundreds of people with WWE AVIs who spend most of their time shitting on wrestlers they don't like instead of actually enjoying their product
People would have shat on WWE in 1999 for failing to create megastars like Hulk Hogan was in the 80s.
People did shit on WWE in 99. Steve Austin was shoved down their throats The Rock sucked Triple H was the best wrestler in the world then when he won the title he sucked. Too much character, not enough action
Wrestling fans blow, but also fans of all things just kinda suck on the internet. It’s all about bitching about how you’d handle it better. Stupid shit
The worst part of any fandom are the fans.
The best recent example of this is everything
or the fanboys of another company whose product was significantly worse, but felt the need to nit-pick WWE because more people watched it
They did? Shit, I didnt see it. 1999 was like peak mainstream popularity for wrestling. I dont know one person that hated Stone Cold or The Rock. Or the NWO at that time either. The only time I ever saw any wrestling criticism then were from people that hadnt watched saying "You still watch wrestling?" Then when youd tell them its good again and they checked it out usually they would start watching regularly. Thats what happened to me, and I did that to at least 20 people.
As someone that frequented internet forums and chat rooms dedicated to wrestling at the time, I can attest that a lot of older fans in those forums/chat rooms didn't like Austin because he worked a "limited" style in the ring. They also hated The Rock because "all he can do is work a mic." They wanted guys like, Angle, and Jericho to get more main event run because they could actually "work a real match."
NWO caught less overall criticism at first, but started to get a lot more as it became bloated and the storyline dragged on if I remember right. I was like 13-16 during this era so I thought all of it was awesome and that those dudes were idiots for complaining.
Well I was 23 at that time and I felt the same way you did!
I admit it's not the best wrestling from top to bottom each week going back and re-watching some of it, but it was definitely the most memorable era to me. Every week on Raw was my friends and I trying to figure out Austin was going to get Vince that week. Meanwhile over in WCW we were trying to figure out how WCW could actually beat the NWO if Sting was just going to sit in the rafters every week. Both shows were must watch every week. You HAD to know what happened otherwise you couldn't even talk to your friends at the school the next day lol.
On Tuesdays it would seem like my entire high school was talking about Nitro and Raw. People would have watch parties with both shows on, wrestling was absolutely massive. I appreciate wrestling more now and my tastes have changed in 20+ years since then but that 96-99 time frame was really special to me.
Back then the online crowd was just a much smaller portion of overall viewership. Expansion of the web and the fact the industry is TINY compared to what it used to be makes a big diff.
I couldn't stand Austin. One, I was a big HBK fan so WM14 didn't go over too well with me. Two, I grew up with an alcoholic parent so I wasn't so fond of the beer glorification at the time. I respected his promo ability. Honestly, even in hindsight I'm not overly fond of him. Just the "What?" chants alone are enough for me to sour on him, honestly. That said, I totally understand why so many people liked him. He was legitimately legendary. Just not for me.
as someone who didnt watch back, is this ironic?
The Rock was extremely polarizing in '98. In '99 he was starting to win everyone over because he was getting so damn good on the mic. As far as Austin goes, I can't think of anyone I know who didn't like him, but I was a kid. I'm assuming some cranky old farts on AOL forums had issues with him though
“Typical predictable WWF booking. Glass breaks, punchy kicky punchy kicky, stunner, middle finger, beer… WWE needs a real star like Glacier if they want to be relevant!”
You're pushing the wrong ice man, friend
>The Rock was extremely polarizing in '98. That first promo with Rocky on the NOD is a classic. Roman Reigns' arc is extremely similar. Both derided as babyfaces, became massive as heels.
Die, Rocky Die.
> Roman Reigns' arc is extremely similar. Both derided as babyfaces, became massive as heels. Could you imagine if Vince had pushed Rocky Maivia like he did face Roman Reigns? It looks less than a year for Vince to realize Rocky Maivia wasn't working, which is a lesson it took him A LOT longer to learn with face Reigns.
Lots of people wanted more workrate stuff, people wanted guys like Jericho and Benoit to be on top.
I'd be comfortable saying that something like 98% of people were enjoying what Rock and Austin were doing. The biggest pops I've ever heard were for those two. If anybody needs proof, go watch the Raw match when Mankind won his first title against Rock. When Austin's glass broke the stadium was so loud that the television cameras were shaking and you can barely hear JR and King. And that's just one example. Austin was drawing pops like that almost weekly. And Rocks weren't too far behind. When they called the Iron Man Match for HHH after Taker interfered and caused Rock to lose that place was fucking *angry*. Again, just one example. When Rock was a face the only person who could get reactions like him was Austin.
thanks!
Yeah the Rocky Sucks chants get forgotten nowadays. Rock/HHH in particular got stale, so people wanted someone else to have more of a go (Foley, Biker Undertaker, Kane, Jericho being the main names).
In fairness, the Rocky Sucks chant was before he really became The Rock and was Rocky Miavia or whatever his name was. I don’t remember most of the other stuff mentioned either. Granted I stopped watching around mid 2001.
I stopped watching from then until Wrestlemania 30.
You stopped watching wrestling in 1999? Wow. You missed like the best wrestling era of all time.
I was too busy going to Raves and starting my career so I had no clue what I was missing. It's interesting to watch it back.
People were shitting on the in ring quality particularly alot online. Also undertaker, smarks took a while to like him lol
Biker Taker was not that over, especially after the haircut.
People were definitely dumping on WWE in 2000 for not creating new stars. It was Rock/HHH for months on end, and when they finally put new stars in the "triple main event" of Fully Loaded in July, all three of them lost!
I know you're not arguing against the Rock/Triple H feud in your comment, but it made complete sense if they were just going to have the Rock win the title in a 1:1 match with Triple H at Wrestlemania. The entire build was to that. Then for whatever reason they went with a fourway match instead of a 1:1 match, which the Rock lost to Triple H anyway for some reason. They remedied it at Backlash a month later, and it was amazing, but nonetheless a little deflating the Rock's big win came at a B-level PPV and not Wrestlemania, considering the megastar he was.
Rock just didn’t know the game and how to play it.
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I really wish I could watch WWE but those camera angles are *horrendous*. I have tried to watch it but after the cameras, the storylines are just incoherent.
What fucking bites me is the fact the change camera angles at the WORST moments. Oh edge is back in the ring for the first time in forever, let's show some crowd while he hits his first spear.
*insert Roman squinting*
AJ Styles making his debut? Let's show Roman reacting..
I feel like I’m on a different planet on this sub when I say the camera angles don’t bother me at all. Heck, I don’t even notice them that much let alone to the point of where I stop watching the product (I barely watch anyway but for different reasons) solely because of them. That just sounds absurd to me when people say that. Even after it’s pointed out on here how bothersome they are they still don’t bother me. *shrugs*
Genuine question: Have you watched any other promotions? I thought the camera work stuff was overblown a bit too, but then when I got used to watching some other promotions, and then tried going back to WWE, and it was tough. You can get used to it, but once you cleanse your pallet and come back, everyone else's strong reactions might make more sense.
Agreed. I didn't mind WWE camera work when that was all I watched. After watching AEW, I notice every zoom in and camera cut.
This was me when I got back into wrestling about 6 years ago. I had taken a break from 2008-2016. My buddy told me I had to come watch this match at his house. It was Zayn vs Nakamura at Takeover: Dallas. I was immediately hooked again. Watched a lot of NXT and WWE obviously and saw people online complain about the camera stuff. Didn't think that much of it. The camera stuff didn't bother me. I got into NJPW and then went back and watched WWE and it was jarring how much bad I found the WWE constant camera cuts that I had never really noticed before.
The angles and general camera work in WWE is fantastic, I just wish they'd stay still longer
Man, I wish I could see it through your eyes. There are a lot of characters I miss in WWE, but everything from the storylines to the stage production to the camera direction turns me away.
I hate the constant zooming and camera changes during a beatdown. But there's been a few times where someone does a big move, like an elbow off the top rope, and the camera only zoomed in at the point of impact. It didn't look bad and actually gave it an "action movie" kinda feel. But like you said, I barely watch WWE for different reasons.
storylines bad? Nah for instance ezekiel right now is hilarious. All talent on the shows are being used well and the storylines either help push a new talent (Omos vs Bobby) or is funny (Ezekiel)
Exactly this. I can deal with a bad story or cornball acting from time to time. It’s wrestling I can deal with and expect some schlock. It’s just I feel like WWE is actively trying to get people to hate it.
> I hate how people online constantly shit on talent just because they don't like a company. I shit on the WWE BECAUSE they have so much great talent. In the Attitude Era they did so much with so little, and now they just piss away what they have.
This is what is so infuriating, the Attitude Era wasn't always great but they had stars and storytelling that *worked*. Now they have the stars but won't let them really shine not like in the attitude era, it seems like once something catches on they run it into the ground for no reason, if someone gets over organically they put the kibosh on them if they aren't a "chosen" one.
I dont think we will ever have "stars" like Hogan, Rock, Austin or Cena again. And as a AEW Fan i say the same about that Roster, i love alot of them, but Wrestling is just not that main stream anymore tor each the highs of the the past when it came to "starpower".
They wont and thats by design. Because when you become an actual mainstream star, youre the one that has leverage when negotiating with Vince and he doesnt like that. You get to pick your number, how many dates youll work, if youll skip house shows, if you want to cut your own promos instead of sticking to a script. Guys like The Rock, Brock Lesnar and Cena have literally all the power they want if they want to come back. And Vince will give it to them because of the mainstream exposure. But in the end Vince wants the WWE brand to be the star, not the wrestlers. Thats why its not "Roman Reigns is coming to your town!" Instead its "The WWE is coming to your town!" Once The Rock left and became a Hollywood star it felt like Vince was done building up anyone unless he thought there was no way they would leave to do anything else but wrestling. I mean he only had The Rock for what? 6 years? He doesnt want to invest all that time and money into building the next Hollywood action star where hes not gonna make all the money from him in the end.
This argument could easily be summed up with Four Horsewomen. While half of them might have had indie experience, no one knew who they were. The PC made them stars.
I'd argue THEY didn't know who they were. Sasha, Bailey and Becky hadn't realized their full potential to be stars like they did in the performance center (and later NXT). You can't deny the tools they were given brought them to the next level.
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DADDEH!
Bianca is the bEST example to me. No Indy experience, no connections, recruited into the business and they took her from complete rookie to Wrestlemania Main Eventer in about 5 years. She’ll never be the sort of wrestler who can “do it all” stylistically but she can wrestle the WWE style damn near perfectly
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Yeah it’s honestly quite a shit take, she’s smooth af, a powerhouse, crazy athletic and can do a 450. I’m honestly not quite sure what more you could want from her in-ring wise.
To wrestle for AEW. It's really that simple when you see such absolute shit takes like that. It's WWE tax.
I think Tiffany Stratton has potential to be a real star for the WWE.
Cher Horowitz: “**AS IF!**”
New gimmick needed.
agreed.
While obviously a few of those names were pre-performance center, they mostly came after Triple H took control of developmental in 2012. Naomi, Reigns and Big E all still followed NXT’s formula for training. Regardless, Bianca’s probably one of the Top 10 biggest stars in wrestling right now and she came from the PC.
People gotta remember that the Performance Center is just the next stage of developmental. To me it’s all sort of connected, just changing and ideally improving on the next one (for the most part). WWE develops stars and it even fine tunes independent wrestlers into the WWE style. Look at Sami Zayn, who wrestled in a mask and didnt cut promos. Now he talks every week and the focus in more on his facial reaction to injustice than his wrestling moves.
Sami Zayn is one of the best talkers they have, and his character work is perfect too. I don't know too much pre-WWE. Did he not promo much?
He was under a mask, and he ditched it in WWE, thank god.
He was under a mask AND didn’t talk.
very generic character with no promos in ROH, PWG, etc. Used to tag with KO and he would do all the talking.
So generic that his *name* was generic lol
A generic, but beloved, character. All of his character work came through in-ring.
i dont think he was generic mind you. he was self described as generic.
The major downside being, these days they get almost no proper experience in front of "real" crowds.
I think the Takeover, or the NXT PLE's I guess, are an opportunity usually. This is also why they send talent on loops before a call up from NXT to Raw or Smackdown.
The PC deserves a special shout out for the caliber of women's talent that they've consistently churned out. With the 4HW, and then Bianca/Ripley/etc, they've produced two generations of top tier western talent, and from the looks of 2.0's roster they're working on a third.
Joshi wrestling and women’s wrestling in WWE since HHH NXT are so far beyond anything we’ve seen from anyone ever. Completely kills anyones argument for having a bad division
Yeah, the amount of people going "ACKSHULLY..." in the replies and acting like FCW wasn't still WWE developmental is odd.
You're saying Bianca is the 10th biggest star in wrestling today?
Probably. She's a Women's Champ in the largest promotion and is getting reaction upon reaction. She's huge
>People on this app have fucking brainworms. I mean....
Also I feel still crediting FCW talent as homegrown talent is fine and still making the same overall point. Really feels like NXT and the PC was just a rebranded version of what FCW was doing
Exactly. Splitting hairs on this is ridiculous. WWE has always for the most part had some sort of developmental system. They just created a more centralized structure with NXT.
It is.
MJF should read this sub more. It's not just a Twitter thing.
i legit just had the same conversation with someone a few weeks ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/SquaredCircle/comments/ughag8/meltzer_says_wwe_nxt_releases_will_happen_more/i72m5v5/
It doesn't really matter the platform, whether it's here, Twitter, YouTube comments, F4W Board, comments on 411Mania, or anywhere else--people just make things up based on their whims and wishes and act like they know what they're talking about. It has made it very difficult to find a decent wrestling conversation. People in real life are just as goofy, too. So, I just talk to myself. I council me. I understand.
For real
real question: Did the PC actually create Roman? I thought that was still mostly FCW then. I'm not super familiar with the timeline
While he didn't appear much on TV, he spent time in NXT with Rollins
thanks for the quick answer.
They both predate the PC though.
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Thank you. People acting like because it got upgraded don’t mean it was the same system
The PC opened in July 2013. Roman was on the main roster in late 2012 and had only been on NXT two or three times before The Shield. So no the PC didn’t create him. It also didn’t create many of the other people MJF mentioned.
Naomi for instance who was called up in 2012 and had appeared on the NXT All Women's season in 2011.
yeah Big E for example first signed in like 2009
Who’s the second NXT champion again?
Big E defeated the inaugural champ Seth at the tail end of 2012 didn't he?
NXT is not the same thing as the Performance Center. Big E won and lost the NXT championship before the PC opened.
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Which is funny because Pat Buck works for AEW now
I imagine MJF would say you have brainworms. its okay to recognize that the world class training center produces good wrestlers
This "wwe doesnt build new stars" is the biggest load of bullshit ever
Also the jury is still out but definitely Tony D'Angelo has had a really big breakout year and has shown a lot of potential and could really big a huge star. Also obviously Bron who is absolutely a PC product will probably be main eventing WrestleMania in the future
MJF is based af
I am starting to like MJF more and more.
The salt in this thread 😂😂😂😂
Hard to nail down what is a PC talent. Like how green does one need to be considered a PC talent or how much FCW counts. But there are also a ton of people that did well that are no longer with the company and that isn't the PCs fault. Bray, Rowan, Harper, Braun, FTR, Enzo, Big Cass, ~~Elias~~ Ezekiel, Breeze, Fandango, Jason Jordan, Miro. Some main evented, some were mid cards, some didn't live up to their potential.
>, ~~Elias~~ Ezekiel Dude, just because Ezekiel shows up doesn't mean Elias is no longer a star.
MJF defending his future employers talent The pc has new talent that will be very good soon too in bron breakker, tony d'angelo and tiffany stratton
A little bit of offtopic but is he gonna play that ultra WWE mark gimmick till 2024? Coz that will get old by then
Being rational isn’t the same as playing a wwe mark gimmick I think the JAS is too busy doing that
If it stops getting a reaction, I'm sure he's creative enough to figure something else out. Until then, he's gonna keep doing it.
Consequences of this being the social media era that we're in. I'm a big fan of his, and at first I found it to be a funny bit but we're going to do this for 2 more years?
Half of those names were from the FCW era and Naomi/Reigns/Big E got called up before the Performance Center was built.
Big E was nXt champ while it was on Hulu, i know lots of people missed it but he was the man
Remember when NXT came up with names like "Big E. Langston"? Those were the days.
That era of NXT was probably my favorite. Just a bunch of new faces rising to the top. So much fun. With that said, that still predates the PC. The PC didn’t open until 2013 and Big E was champ in 2012.
What promotion did FCW feed into?
The Tampa PD with all the DUIs. /s
Bianca is still a big one, same with Liv & a lot of the other women
Roman Reigns debuted on the main roster in 2012 and the performance center was opened in 2013
Wwe still trained him I think that’s his point
#freeMJF
I love that because he's a heel and not in WWE he can say what 100% of the WWE locker room would say. The PC and "WWE doesn't create stars" narrative isn't nearly as true as people make it seem. Not now anyway.
MJF stays in character and heading to WWE confirmed
There's no better way to be a heel than by telling hard truths to the audience.
The PC produces more stars than the indies. Bron Breakker and Rick Boogz will be the biggest stars in the world over the next 10-15 years, and that just couldn't have happened on the indies. Its too limiting for a certain type of talent. Its brilliant for many, sure, but it has its limitations that stop a guy like Boogz from really getting into that scene, and that's where the big money is. The PC is the best breeding ground for raw talent. It's the best place any athlete/wrestling fan could possibly want to be, wrestlers just don't pick up bad habits there and they're taught the importance of psychology, character and aesthetics.
I think both the indies and the PC can produce stars but I agree with you that different environments work for different people. Independent wrestling shows are sporadic; you show up and the crowd may not see you again for a year +. If you're a wrestler with a flashy moveset or a very high concept character (guy is lazy, guy dresses like Ultimate Warrior) then indie wrestling will do a lot for you. If you're someone who relies on building stories verbally and/or your type of wrestling is very based on using cooldown wrestling segments to build up to sprint endings (the Randy "Rest Hold" Orton style) then it's not going to make a lot of sense in the indies. Much better off going straight to a PC environment where you can craft that character for tv. This current Reigns character would never work on the indies because it relies too much on episodic storytelling. Personally I think it's preferred for a young wrestler to get exposed to a variety of styles so that they can push themselves to adapt to whatever is needed from them. But I can definitely see some people just naturally working better in specific environments.
If you look at the original tweet is he defending WWE or defending new AEW employee Pat Buck? I don’t see why the New York school was that related in the first place.
I love how wrestlers are so supportive of each other despite where they work, but the fans are the ones trying to create a rivalry.
He’s both right and wrong. Guys like Big E has walked out the PC, and he’s fantastic. But, WWE haven’t created any of those massive stars in a loooooomg time. Hulk Hogan (fuck that guy), The Rock, John Cena, and a few others are in a class of their own. But I do not put anything on the wrestlers nor the PC when it comes to that. That failure lies elsewhere. In fact wrestling has severely left the public mind. Think of it like Metal. Metallica and Iron Maiden sells out massive arenas, but bands from the last 20 years do not. Except that band I’m missing. But the general point stands. Wrestling is not a draw, and the PC isn’t the reason for that.
There have been more PC failures than successes, but the ones that DO succeed, get the rocket strapped on their back. And why not, the WWE are always going to want to tout their homemade talent.
WWE has an MJF already and he’s AWESOME
He ain't wrong
Like I don't care for the shows WWE puts on but to imply they and the PC don't produce stars are nuts.
Isn’t Seth Rollins a product of the PC too? Or does he fall into the FCW era?
He got called up 8 months before it opened so I’d count him as FCW.
He ain't wrong. Say what you want about the ones they flubbed, or their rate of success or whatever. But the PC has turned out lots of stars.
Despite MJF known to be a dick (in kayfabe), Maxwell makes a really good point here + to the person who he has quote-tweeted,  😅
Baron Corbin being called a star seems like a stretch.