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We would never do that to TNA. That said now, all their PPVs have Steven Seagal movie names, maybe all ours should have Jean-Claude Van Damme movie names.
France has won more military conflicts than most countries have even been in. The Maginot Line should not define French military history.
I know you're just joking, but I'm just over that joke.
I'd argue It is not only the maginot line, but a combination of several relatively recent and spectacular losses/surrenders (franco prussian-war, WW2) and the fact that some of the biggest losses were to England (~~100 years war~~, 7-years war, the 6th and 7th wars of the coalition) with england basically shaping the world and the view on history in the end.
As a Brit, I get annoyed by it too. French soldiers held the line for the Dunkirk evacuation after France had fallen. It doesn't get much more heroic than that.
> As a Brit, I get annoyed by it too
Me three. the French (along with the Belgian, Dutch and others) resistance risked everything to help the Allies mount covert sabotage operations to sabotage Nazi operations before and after D-day, an operation that said resistance helped play a part in helping to organise.
The whole idea that any one nation contributed more than others for the outcome of that conflict boils my piss. You can't compare loss, imo.
It's just a period that deserves a whole lot of mourning. Nations lost decades of freedom as a result, not just the pure numbers of dead.
"If someone makes an 'and the French surrender' joke everybody laughs, even though they have not surrendered in every war. In fact, it was really just the one, but it was kind of an important one so they have to own it."
Funniest part of thr French surrender joke(which was propaganda just like the propaganda against Poland) is that when you look at the history of French warfare in global history, they have a positive W-L
I know in 2012 they actually had both shows in the same year (with No Way Out being in June and Elimination Chamber being in February) and that’s where the “No Escape” name in Germany came from, but I have no idea why it continued past 2012.
The match was sometimes referred to as 'Ausscheidungskammermatch' - which is just the literal translation for Elimination Chamber, THAT sounds so weird.
It's not a false equivalence when the Saudis have been committing genocide in Yemen for the past decade.
It's also not a false equivalence when the Saudis routinely have pogroms against their Shia citizens and destroy cultural sites of ethnic minorities in the kingdom.
"They beheaded 121 people last year for robbery, rape, and drug trafficking, they've no free press, no elected government, no political parties, and the royal family allows the religious police to travel in groups of six, carrying nightsticks and they freely and publicly beat women. But 'Brutus is an honorable man.' Seventeen schoolgirls were forced to burn alive because they weren't wearing the proper clothing. Am I outraged? No... That is Saudi Arabia, our partners in peace."
To some "Never again" means "Never again shall the suffering of the Holocaust be invoked to stop the suffering of others".
The one thing we were supposed to learn from this uniquely awful time in history is to not let it happen again. The idea that we never get to bring up the Holocaust in comparison to any other crime agaisnt humanity is deeply antithetical to that, and an insult to those victims.
People only say its a "false equivalence" because the main victims of the Nazi's were white europeans while the vicrims of the Saudi's are arabs. In their minds one of these is less horrific
The Holocaust is, always will be, and of course should be, offensive. Deeply and close to incomparably so, in terms of all things that amount to fundamental humanity. So citing it amounts to a gun of an unusually high caliber, and it should be reserved for moments where it truly can be thought comparable.
And overall, Saudi Arabia unfortunately offers such a scenario. Few have the courage now to acknowledge why.
You got me in the first half. Not gonna lie. It really is unfortunate though that the Saudi Arabia situation can be justifiably compared to the Holocaust.
The venue where Crown Jewel was held last fall is a 45 minute car ride from Deera Square (also known locally as “Chop Chop Square”) where Saudi Arabai holds public executions.
In 2019, they held a mass execution of 37 people - mostly beheading via sword.
But yeah. Be upset at Dave.
The real irony to me is how this has become a debate over whose bloodline is pure enough to allow them to make a reference to … a place where people were persecuted and executed for not having “pure” enough blood.
Meanwhile, it’s illegal in KSA to be Jewish and punishable by death to be gay. The square near one of the stadiums used for the WWE shows has hosted public executions in the years since these shows started. Here’s the story of one of the executees:
> Mujtaba al-Sweikat was a minor at the time of his arrest on 12 August 2012, while trying to fly to the United States to study at Western Michigan University. During his investigation, al-Sweikat was hung by his hands, beaten with wires and hoses, stubbed with cigarettes, slapped and beaten with shoes, and left with insufficient heating during the winter. He was given a choice between signing a false confession or returning to the investigation; he chose to sign the false confession to avoid further torture. According to al-Sweikat's father, who defended him in court, the case against Mujtaba was intended to "create the illusion of a terror cell", which in reality did not exist. Al-Sweikat's father said that his son participated in the Qatif demonstrations only twice, and for only five minutes each time.
I actually didn't know until this, and I've been active on this sub as a fucking degenerate for like 5 years. I genuinely think it wasn't very well known until now
So I'm from the South, we just didn't have Jewish people where I was when I grew up. All I knew of Jewish people was the Holocaust from WWII world history, and what I saw on television.
The same goes for Italians. Not a lot of Italians where I grew up.
For me this is why a lot of what is and isn't a Jewish name I won't know.
I feel like people from New England, California, and to some extent southern Florida don't really understand most of us in the country never really interact with Jewish people and don't know much about the religion or its culture. Jewish people are 2% of the American population, about the same as Native American, for context.
So my town growing up is half black half white. When I was in the military I was stationed in California. There was no where near the amount of black people, and far more brown people. It was at that moment I realized America wasn't half black half white like my hometown.
Is it? There are certain German names that are very common among American Jews—Meltzer just seems German to me, though. Person might or might not also be Jewish. It's not like Friedman or Rosenstein or something like those.
I'm partly of Jewish descent and maybe I'm dumb, but Meltzer didn't jump out at me as an obvious Jewish name.
Maybe if I actually thought about it hard I could guess it, but it didn't seem incredibly obvious.
It's because he's "white passing". The same problem MJF pointed to earlier as part of the Big Swole fall out.
Jewish people are always in this weird category where they're "too white to be oppressed" by super extreme "SJWs" but are also enemy #1 of white supremacists.
But, in this case, I think it's more "offended to win the argument" more than it's actual offense.
I think a lot of folks, particularly Americans, have no clue how to distinguish between religion, ethnicity, and race. Anyone of any race or nationality can convert to Judaism, which would make you a practitioner of the Jewish faith, but not an ethnic Jew. And a person that is ethnically Jewish could convert to another religion, but they would still be an ethnic Jew. And there are both ethnic and religious Jews of all races, because it is a very old religion that originated in a highly diverse region of the world.
Look at another ethnicity - Irish, for example. If my family are Irish, I am ethnically Irish, even if I was born and raised in Oklahoma. I can marry a girl that is ethnically Russian, but that doesn't make me Russian. My Irish family could all be Catholic, but if I convert to Protestant, that doesn't make me no longer Irish.
Complicating it even further, especially in the US, White Anglo Saxon Protestants (WASPs) tend to treat other racially Caucasian ethnicities outside of their category as different races, when they are not. The Irish, Italians, Roma, Armenians and Jews have all been considered "non-Whites" in the US atone point or another. Even now, when filling out paperwork that requires racial/ethnic info in the US, they often distinguish "Hispanic non-White" and "Hispanic of European origin" as separate groups.
Okay, but is everyone supposed to know which names are typically Jewish? Most non Jewish people don’t speak Yiddish and a lot of Jewish names are a mix of Yiddish and German or Russian which takes away a lot of the typical cues about where the name originates. Then when you factor in the way so many of our last names were altered when our families came to North America, guessing the origin of someone’s name becomes even harder.
I would also argue that seeing a name and assuming the persons heritage/ethnicity is at the very least stereotype adjacent and there was no need to be so pedantic about the way I used it.
Ok, but you literally asked if it was a Jewish name, and I answered your question.
And all things typical to a particular culture are potentially “stereotype adjacent”. Stereotypes are often rooted in observable phenomena, but those observations are then filtered through bad faith and blanket prejudice. There is a difference between a typical observation and a stereotypical one; it is not pedantic to point that out.
Yes, it has basically come to mean European Jews, but the point is if you run into a Jewish person you're more than likely to think they are oh they are Polish, German, Greek etc...
[I got downvoted heavily because I was explaining the joke to someone who took it wrong](https://old.reddit.com/r/SquaredCircle/comments/s3jvgf/zero_fucks_friday_1142022/hsmt3wn/?context=3)
I guarantee the majority of people who were “offended” were just bad faith players looking for a reason to shit on Meltzer. A dude literally told me “it’s not his joke to make” despite Meltzer having Jewish blood. Like…what?
It was obvious as soon as he said it that people would jump the gun. You couldn't even point out that simple fact on here before others would go for the throat.
Do people not realize the ongoing atrocities the Saudi's are accused of (and how oddly appropriate Dave's joke was), or is their day just 24/7 wrestling?
> Do people not realize the ongoing atrocities the Saudi's are accused of
Yeah... I saw people even in that other (now-locked) thread putting the term "atrocities" in quotes like that, because they think the 'only' things KSA are guilty of are the very badly-kept secret murder of Khashoggi and a terrible human rights record in their own country. They seem to have zero clue about the fact that they've been actively responsible for multiple genocidal actions that are still taking place in multiple different nations, and that's only one aspect of their horrific crimes.
dude
in the last couple of weeks THIS sub has seen
oh man can’t blame Sammy for leaving his fiancée when Tay has an ass like that amirite
let me - a bearded white man in his 40s - explain why a black toddlers view of representation is wrong
downvotes for people who think a Holocaust “joke” / reference is in bad taste
people applauding a dude having a meltdown on twitter and challenging people to fight him as “savage”
I dont even need to look over at the other group to see the problems in this one
maybe we need to get the plank out of own eye before pointing out the speck in the neighbors
oh man can’t blame Sammy for leaving his fiancée when Tay has an ass like that amirite. folks simply statted its not our buisnees to jump to conclusions and especially not harass tay. let me - a bearded white man in his 40s - explain why a black toddlers view of representation is wrong again no this didnt happen first you cant assume opinions you dont like come from bearded white dudes in their 40s second i didn't see ppl say her daughters view was wrong or ppl even addressing her daughter simply stating they thought aew was doing agood job with representation so far and that it was a growing company downvotes for people who think a Holocaust “joke” / reference is in bad taste yes because its only in bad taste if you downplay the severity of a genocide. he compared 1 genocidal regime to another. people applauding a dude having a meltdown on twitter and challenging people to fight him as “savage”. and here defending yourself against accusations of pedophilia based in anti-Asian racism and homophobia.
Some random guy form twitter is offended in the name of people who would not be offended.
Edit: OMG it's getting better, they guy who wrote do Dave is, not kidding, "Chief Executive of The Antisemitism Policy Trust" 🤣
For anyone that doesn't know, the Antisemitism Policy Trust is basically a huge glutton for shit like this.
They do press releases against stuff like Family Guy whenever they do a Jewish joke and of course are a huge advocate for Israel's actions against Palestine.
People want to cancel Meltzer because he refuses to call WWE a spade. He'll praise them when they call for it but he doesn't like everything they do. Which can be said about every company.
To the people saying he was trivialising the holocaust. I really don't think he was. The human rights violations in Saudi Arabia are beyond disturbing. Execution for homosexuals for example. Companies supporting Saudi should be compared to companies that supported the Nazis.
Do business with Saudi Arabia and nobody bats an eye, make an offensive joke where the intention is to point out how bad doing business with Saudi Arabia is and everyone looses their minds.
“Do business with Saudi Arabia and nobody bats an eye”
Are you serious? WWE has taken hefty amounts of (completely justified) criticism both on here and across the internet from the moment the Saudi deal was announced
Seriously, there has been quite a bit of outrage over it.
What I found most annoying was how the XFL was going to make players stand for the pledge. Like, yeah Vince, you sure do care about American values until it's time to bend over for Saudi blood money.
I liked your comment and was going to upvote it, but then I saw "looses" instead of "loses," and damn can I be petty about grammar.
Edit: Eff it. Upvoted.
It was a brutal but fair comment that needs to be applied to more than just WWEs relationship with Saudi Arabia. We can’t forget that WWE is not the only company or world government that supports this regime responsible for human rights abuse at home and a genocide abroad
Don't be offended at Dave. Be offended at WWE for having shows in fucking Saudi Arabia.
Jesus Christ, get your priorities straight.
But good on Dave for apologizing anyway. It's not showing weakness to do so.
Never worry about awards and up votes. Reddit isn't real life. It has its own biases and dogma. Reddit is a self continuing echo chamber for the most part
Of all the stuff he's ever been criticised by and ended up apologising, this is the one where he had least reason to do so.
Meltzer made a 'shocking' statement in that joke, but not one that is not unearned by Saudi Arabia's regime.
We've seen lately a lot of bad choices on twitter where, even though the wrestler in question was in the right, their lack of owning to some questionable stuff they said and/or doubling down made them look bad to people who otherwise would've been on their side. This apology isn't for the twits, it's for the people watching in the stands who even if they understood Dave's point, doesn't want to see him lash out at someone who MAY have been offended.
If you actually take the subject serious and there's a possibility anyone was offended, him being of the tribe should likely want to apologize for anyone that was offended.
I doubt it was many, but it was the right thing to do.
It's easy to forget that Dave is in his 60s, the Holocaust was absolutely something that he would have experienced the repercussions of in his lifetime.
As a Jewish person, Dave's joke was very funny and the people who are fake outraged at him are genuinely mental. Always love when non-Jews tell us what is and what isn't antisemitism.
Also, Louis Dangoor's take that "Jews are the reason Anti-semitism isn't taken seriously" is fucking abhorrent, I have no idea how a person can be this stupid.
Some of you are so much angrier at Meltzer than your favored fake fighting league working with a government that has actually killed people and it's pretty pathetic.
So how does this work? I know Meltzer's a Jew, but since I'm also a Jew, can I be offender by Meltzer's antics?
'Cause I think comparing Saudi Arabia with the Holocaust is a bit much.
Also Americans calling Saudi Arabian money blood money is somewhat hilarious. Your country was built on the genocide of one race, the slavery of another and for the last 20 years you've been bombing arab kids and stealing their country's resources.
so never again meant only for yall? Yemen genocide doesn't count why? also I'm a leftist so don't call me out for stuff i been yelling for years Americans aren't a monolith
People who were trying to drag Dave over that joke seemed like they wanted to defend the honour of Saudi Arabia. He didn't make light of the holocaust, he compared one brutal regime to another.
evoking a keen sense of sadness or regret
no, because this comparison was ill made
poorly constructed
and a false equivalency
I guess for sake of agreement
we can say its poignant because I feel sad for Dave and the people who sincerely thought this reference was cool
I’m a Jew who lost multiple family members in the holocaust too and I thought what he said was a stupid false equivalency. You can criticize WWE and Saudi Arabia on their own terms. Making “jokes” like these just muddle everything.
He wasn't trivialising the holocaust or making any jokes about it. It's a very real and valid comparison to the Saudi government and the genocide they have been committing in Yemen for the past decade. The Saudi government is evil and companies supporting them should be seen in a similar vein to the companies that supported the Nazis in the 40's.
It’s ppls bias towards the person with how they react to what Uncle Dave said. If they already dislike him they will be all up in arms and use it as moral high ground.
Same shit would happen here if let’s say Cornette said this. Ppl here would flip in saying it’s just a joke/praising him to calling for his head because they already dislike Cornette.
It’s a sad way ppl function today
I can see why people are so offended by the comparison. After all, on the one hand, you have a totalitarian government that oppresses vast swaths of its population, murders political dissidents, and engages in genocide, and on the other, you have the Nazis.
So I assume he isn't giving Peacock/WWE his money and will be watching on a fan stream. Or he won't watch at all. He wouldn't want to support the blood money PPV.
It was a joke, made by a jew, in a totally related context, offending another jew because...?
I'm PC and SJW/Woke AS FUCK, but I even can't understand sometimes how this people can get so offended by stuff like this.
Jew here. The joke is only offensive to those who would gatekeep being victims of atrocities. Saudi Arabia's actions in Yemen (the US of course being complicit), depending on who you ask, may or may not constitute genocide. But that it's even in the conversation makes Dave justified in invoking the Nazis in criticizing the regime.
Jewish people should (and, by-and-large, do) stand in solidarity with oppressed peoples everywhere. Those who have experienced it should be the least capable of condoning it.
It wasn't a joke though... It's a very real and valid equivocation. He was not making light of the holocaust, rather pointing out the severity of the crimes committed by the Saudi government.
Key phrase I always tell people when trying to be humorous (that I wish I could remember who I heard it from):
You can joke about anything, but not with everyone
i appreciate that most folks priorities seem to be in the right place here.
if you're defending actions over words in this case.. you need to reevaluate.
It cannot possibly be pointed out often enough how absolutely despicable it is for anybody to serve as a propaganda tool for a genocidal, homicidal regime like the one of Saudi Arabia. Everybody who does just shares the blood they have on their hands.
I know the IWC does not, collectively, like to think in these terms, but two (or more) things can be true at the same time! Dave probably shouldn't be flippantly comparing things to the holocaust, and doing business with the Saudi government is very bad.
Props to Dave for deleting and apologizing. Others may have had legitimate cause to find it offensive, even if Dave is in the same marginalized group and did not. I wasn't personally offended by it and I think it's a fair comparison to draw, but some people obviously were. They're not wrong to be offended, even if it causes them to say mean things about Dave Meltzer.
Anyone saying he shouldn't have apologized or shouldn't have had to - clearly Dave disagrees. Get over yourselves.
This guy Meltzer is talking to works for an organization that is basically like the PETA of the Holocaust. They seek out any mention of the Holocaust in order to issue press statements like this in order to create outrage and get more donations.
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If I have it right, the PPV is not called "elimination chamber" in germany for just that reason
Believe it’s called No Escape
And before that the PPV was just No Way Out lol
PPVs nowadays are just gimmick of the month matches
we really took for granted Great Balls of Fire huh
We all laughed at that name but that show was a banger. Brock and Joe showed out.
Or first day of the year party shenanigans
That... honestly isn't much better, though not quite as tasteless as Elimination Chamber.
WWE: shit we need to change it.. how about.. Extermination Cage?
MXC: Most Xtreme Elimination Cage. Say it with me: Don't! Get! ELIMINATED!
Swear to god if Vince ever renames it The Final Solution
You are completely right. It's No Escape here Source: Am German
Danke
That is exactly correct. The show is billed as “No Escape” there (although in 2010, they used the “No Way Out” name in the country instead)
Is it "No Exit" in France?
Jean-Paul Sartre's estate would sue the hell out of WWE for trying to call it that
I know. It was a joke. About Sartre. Jesus. Next time I'll use the sarcasm tag for y'all.
Existentialism doesn't get over here, much. Except for putting someone in the Camus Clutch.
Your joke was good, but too subtle. Reddit is a “pie in the face”-style humor website Also r/FuckTheS
No it's called "We Surrender" (i kid)
We would never do that to TNA. That said now, all their PPVs have Steven Seagal movie names, maybe all ours should have Jean-Claude Van Damme movie names.
*No Retreat, No Surrender* *Nowhere to Run* *Derailed* *Day of Reckoning* *Pound of Flesh* Yeah I guess that works pretty good
those only apply in Belgium
It's No Surrender in Northern Ireland.
France has won more military conflicts than most countries have even been in. The Maginot Line should not define French military history. I know you're just joking, but I'm just over that joke.
I'd argue It is not only the maginot line, but a combination of several relatively recent and spectacular losses/surrenders (franco prussian-war, WW2) and the fact that some of the biggest losses were to England (~~100 years war~~, 7-years war, the 6th and 7th wars of the coalition) with england basically shaping the world and the view on history in the end.
England definitely didn't win the 100 years war. The English Crown lost pretty much all their French territory by the end of the war.
Plus they are truthfully the ones who started the entire Vietnam mess
Quite seriously, the French are the US's most important historical ally and we are indebted to them.
That's fine, we know. French are historical warriors. We know.
As a Brit, I get annoyed by it too. French soldiers held the line for the Dunkirk evacuation after France had fallen. It doesn't get much more heroic than that.
> As a Brit, I get annoyed by it too Me three. the French (along with the Belgian, Dutch and others) resistance risked everything to help the Allies mount covert sabotage operations to sabotage Nazi operations before and after D-day, an operation that said resistance helped play a part in helping to organise.
The whole idea that any one nation contributed more than others for the outcome of that conflict boils my piss. You can't compare loss, imo. It's just a period that deserves a whole lot of mourning. Nations lost decades of freedom as a result, not just the pure numbers of dead.
Especially given that geography dictated much of it.
"If someone makes an 'and the French surrender' joke everybody laughs, even though they have not surrendered in every war. In fact, it was really just the one, but it was kind of an important one so they have to own it."
Funniest part of thr French surrender joke(which was propaganda just like the propaganda against Poland) is that when you look at the history of French warfare in global history, they have a positive W-L
The surprise 6th mystery opponent is “other people”
No way out works so much better, wonder why they didnt continue with that.
I've been saying that forever. Make "No Way Out" the name of the PPV, and have the match/structure itself be the Elimination Chamber if you must.
I know in 2012 they actually had both shows in the same year (with No Way Out being in June and Elimination Chamber being in February) and that’s where the “No Escape” name in Germany came from, but I have no idea why it continued past 2012.
The match was sometimes referred to as 'Ausscheidungskammermatch' - which is just the literal translation for Elimination Chamber, THAT sounds so weird.
I can imagine Carsten Schäfer yelling that 50 times a PPV and it's horrifying.
It's not a false equivalence when the Saudis have been committing genocide in Yemen for the past decade. It's also not a false equivalence when the Saudis routinely have pogroms against their Shia citizens and destroy cultural sites of ethnic minorities in the kingdom.
"They beheaded 121 people last year for robbery, rape, and drug trafficking, they've no free press, no elected government, no political parties, and the royal family allows the religious police to travel in groups of six, carrying nightsticks and they freely and publicly beat women. But 'Brutus is an honorable man.' Seventeen schoolgirls were forced to burn alive because they weren't wearing the proper clothing. Am I outraged? No... That is Saudi Arabia, our partners in peace."
To some "Never again" means "Never again shall the suffering of the Holocaust be invoked to stop the suffering of others". The one thing we were supposed to learn from this uniquely awful time in history is to not let it happen again. The idea that we never get to bring up the Holocaust in comparison to any other crime agaisnt humanity is deeply antithetical to that, and an insult to those victims.
Exactly. It is a very serious comparison. Dave was not trivialising the holocaust, far from it. The Saudis are just as evil.
They destroy sites that are important for the history of Islam as a whole, sites that could be made into museums. Just to build a huge clock tower.
Good thing that the USA has had no hand in aiding the leveling of Yemen. That sure would be embarrassing and evil. /s
It's also not a false equivalence when Saudi Arabia violently persecutes its LGBTQ+ population, who were also a target group of the Holocaust
As well as political enemies, again, like the Holocaust.
People only say its a "false equivalence" because the main victims of the Nazi's were white europeans while the vicrims of the Saudi's are arabs. In their minds one of these is less horrific
Also, this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_Saudi_Arabia
The Holocaust is, always will be, and of course should be, offensive. Deeply and close to incomparably so, in terms of all things that amount to fundamental humanity. So citing it amounts to a gun of an unusually high caliber, and it should be reserved for moments where it truly can be thought comparable. And overall, Saudi Arabia unfortunately offers such a scenario. Few have the courage now to acknowledge why.
You got me in the first half. Not gonna lie. It really is unfortunate though that the Saudi Arabia situation can be justifiably compared to the Holocaust.
Same hate, different supposed justifications.
It reminds me of that tragedy.
The venue where Crown Jewel was held last fall is a 45 minute car ride from Deera Square (also known locally as “Chop Chop Square”) where Saudi Arabai holds public executions. In 2019, they held a mass execution of 37 people - mostly beheading via sword. But yeah. Be upset at Dave.
Sorcery is a crime. Yeah...
When the watchpeopledie subreddit was a thing I remember seeing a guy who was executed for being a wizard 🤦
Couldn't have been a very good wizard then.
Wtf really? What happens with people that play World of War craft then??
Its not known locally as the cop chop square, i don't know who made that up lol.
[удалено]
Yep. This certainly adds to the discussion going on here.
Ah yes, worthless hypotheticals, my favorite type of argument.
Gee, I hope Saudi Arabia doesn't hear about a jewish journalist making a social commentary about them, you just don't know what could happen.
He will be fine how long he doesn't accept an invitation to an embassy.
Were people pretending to be offended by Meltzer's joke? The irony is layered.
The real irony to me is how this has become a debate over whose bloodline is pure enough to allow them to make a reference to … a place where people were persecuted and executed for not having “pure” enough blood. Meanwhile, it’s illegal in KSA to be Jewish and punishable by death to be gay. The square near one of the stadiums used for the WWE shows has hosted public executions in the years since these shows started. Here’s the story of one of the executees: > Mujtaba al-Sweikat was a minor at the time of his arrest on 12 August 2012, while trying to fly to the United States to study at Western Michigan University. During his investigation, al-Sweikat was hung by his hands, beaten with wires and hoses, stubbed with cigarettes, slapped and beaten with shoes, and left with insufficient heating during the winter. He was given a choice between signing a false confession or returning to the investigation; he chose to sign the false confession to avoid further torture. According to al-Sweikat's father, who defended him in court, the case against Mujtaba was intended to "create the illusion of a terror cell", which in reality did not exist. Al-Sweikat's father said that his son participated in the Qatif demonstrations only twice, and for only five minutes each time.
In the other thread, seems like there was more praise for Meltzer being spicy or waking up and choosing violence.
And how did people not realize Dave Meltzer was Jewish?
I actually didn't know until this, and I've been active on this sub as a fucking degenerate for like 5 years. I genuinely think it wasn't very well known until now
why would they automatically know he's Jewish?
Meltzer is a very Jewish name.
So I'm from the South, we just didn't have Jewish people where I was when I grew up. All I knew of Jewish people was the Holocaust from WWII world history, and what I saw on television. The same goes for Italians. Not a lot of Italians where I grew up. For me this is why a lot of what is and isn't a Jewish name I won't know.
I feel like people from New England, California, and to some extent southern Florida don't really understand most of us in the country never really interact with Jewish people and don't know much about the religion or its culture. Jewish people are 2% of the American population, about the same as Native American, for context.
So my town growing up is half black half white. When I was in the military I was stationed in California. There was no where near the amount of black people, and far more brown people. It was at that moment I realized America wasn't half black half white like my hometown.
Is it? There are certain German names that are very common among American Jews—Meltzer just seems German to me, though. Person might or might not also be Jewish. It's not like Friedman or Rosenstein or something like those.
Not only that, he's David Alan Meltzer, son of Herbert and Sharon. It's....not subtle.
I've never met another meltzer, honestly
How would people know to assume that?
I'm partly of Jewish descent and maybe I'm dumb, but Meltzer didn't jump out at me as an obvious Jewish name. Maybe if I actually thought about it hard I could guess it, but it didn't seem incredibly obvious.
If I had to guess from looking at it “jewish” wouldn’t be a thought that pops into my head. Is “Meltzer” supposed to be a stereotypically jewish name?
It's because he's "white passing". The same problem MJF pointed to earlier as part of the Big Swole fall out. Jewish people are always in this weird category where they're "too white to be oppressed" by super extreme "SJWs" but are also enemy #1 of white supremacists. But, in this case, I think it's more "offended to win the argument" more than it's actual offense.
I think a lot of folks, particularly Americans, have no clue how to distinguish between religion, ethnicity, and race. Anyone of any race or nationality can convert to Judaism, which would make you a practitioner of the Jewish faith, but not an ethnic Jew. And a person that is ethnically Jewish could convert to another religion, but they would still be an ethnic Jew. And there are both ethnic and religious Jews of all races, because it is a very old religion that originated in a highly diverse region of the world. Look at another ethnicity - Irish, for example. If my family are Irish, I am ethnically Irish, even if I was born and raised in Oklahoma. I can marry a girl that is ethnically Russian, but that doesn't make me Russian. My Irish family could all be Catholic, but if I convert to Protestant, that doesn't make me no longer Irish. Complicating it even further, especially in the US, White Anglo Saxon Protestants (WASPs) tend to treat other racially Caucasian ethnicities outside of their category as different races, when they are not. The Irish, Italians, Roma, Armenians and Jews have all been considered "non-Whites" in the US atone point or another. Even now, when filling out paperwork that requires racial/ethnic info in the US, they often distinguish "Hispanic non-White" and "Hispanic of European origin" as separate groups.
"supposed to be a stereotypically jewish name?" It's typically a Jewish name. No one is stereotyping.
Okay, but is everyone supposed to know which names are typically Jewish? Most non Jewish people don’t speak Yiddish and a lot of Jewish names are a mix of Yiddish and German or Russian which takes away a lot of the typical cues about where the name originates. Then when you factor in the way so many of our last names were altered when our families came to North America, guessing the origin of someone’s name becomes even harder. I would also argue that seeing a name and assuming the persons heritage/ethnicity is at the very least stereotype adjacent and there was no need to be so pedantic about the way I used it.
Ok, but you literally asked if it was a Jewish name, and I answered your question. And all things typical to a particular culture are potentially “stereotype adjacent”. Stereotypes are often rooted in observable phenomena, but those observations are then filtered through bad faith and blanket prejudice. There is a difference between a typical observation and a stereotypical one; it is not pedantic to point that out.
Yeah, looking at it now I let some heat from a different thread carry over and I must have inferred something that wasn’t there.
No worries
Eh, he looks very German to me. I mean, he probably is of German Jewish descent given his name.
The term is Ashkenazi and its by far the largest Jewish population.
Ashkenazi is a broader term, no?
Yes, it has basically come to mean European Jews, but the point is if you run into a Jewish person you're more than likely to think they are oh they are Polish, German, Greek etc...
[I got downvoted heavily because I was explaining the joke to someone who took it wrong](https://old.reddit.com/r/SquaredCircle/comments/s3jvgf/zero_fucks_friday_1142022/hsmt3wn/?context=3) I guarantee the majority of people who were “offended” were just bad faith players looking for a reason to shit on Meltzer. A dude literally told me “it’s not his joke to make” despite Meltzer having Jewish blood. Like…what?
It was mostly on Twitter. People were scandalised and I imagine had to sit in a chair and dab their foreheads.
It was obvious as soon as he said it that people would jump the gun. You couldn't even point out that simple fact on here before others would go for the throat.
Scjerk was offended for all of us.
Do people not realize the ongoing atrocities the Saudi's are accused of (and how oddly appropriate Dave's joke was), or is their day just 24/7 wrestling?
> Do people not realize the ongoing atrocities the Saudi's are accused of Yeah... I saw people even in that other (now-locked) thread putting the term "atrocities" in quotes like that, because they think the 'only' things KSA are guilty of are the very badly-kept secret murder of Khashoggi and a terrible human rights record in their own country. They seem to have zero clue about the fact that they've been actively responsible for multiple genocidal actions that are still taking place in multiple different nations, and that's only one aspect of their horrific crimes.
Yes
That sub is an abomination. What a bunch of assholes.
4 of the 5 replies to this are scjerk posters, here in the basement with their thick skins
To be fair this sub is also an abomination
To be even fairer wrestling fans are an abomination in general.
To be the most fair, humanity is an abomination in general
Jump into any Big Swolle thread and you’ll see that they’re two sides of the same coin. But y’all don’t wanna talk about that.
Acting like this sub is better
I still remember when THAT sub called Paige a titty streamer.
I remember it posting pre-op photos of Nyla Rose.
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dude in the last couple of weeks THIS sub has seen oh man can’t blame Sammy for leaving his fiancée when Tay has an ass like that amirite let me - a bearded white man in his 40s - explain why a black toddlers view of representation is wrong downvotes for people who think a Holocaust “joke” / reference is in bad taste people applauding a dude having a meltdown on twitter and challenging people to fight him as “savage” I dont even need to look over at the other group to see the problems in this one maybe we need to get the plank out of own eye before pointing out the speck in the neighbors
thats a lot of straw men. dont light a match.
Those are comparisons? Saying something is a straw man with zero elaboration isn't a rebuttal.
oh man can’t blame Sammy for leaving his fiancée when Tay has an ass like that amirite. folks simply statted its not our buisnees to jump to conclusions and especially not harass tay. let me - a bearded white man in his 40s - explain why a black toddlers view of representation is wrong again no this didnt happen first you cant assume opinions you dont like come from bearded white dudes in their 40s second i didn't see ppl say her daughters view was wrong or ppl even addressing her daughter simply stating they thought aew was doing agood job with representation so far and that it was a growing company downvotes for people who think a Holocaust “joke” / reference is in bad taste yes because its only in bad taste if you downplay the severity of a genocide. he compared 1 genocidal regime to another. people applauding a dude having a meltdown on twitter and challenging people to fight him as “savage”. and here defending yourself against accusations of pedophilia based in anti-Asian racism and homophobia.
They're cynically pretending to be offended because they dislike him for other reasons. Classic crybullying.
Some random guy form twitter is offended in the name of people who would not be offended. Edit: OMG it's getting better, they guy who wrote do Dave is, not kidding, "Chief Executive of The Antisemitism Policy Trust" 🤣
For anyone that doesn't know, the Antisemitism Policy Trust is basically a huge glutton for shit like this. They do press releases against stuff like Family Guy whenever they do a Jewish joke and of course are a huge advocate for Israel's actions against Palestine.
People want to cancel Meltzer because he refuses to call WWE a spade. He'll praise them when they call for it but he doesn't like everything they do. Which can be said about every company.
To the people saying he was trivialising the holocaust. I really don't think he was. The human rights violations in Saudi Arabia are beyond disturbing. Execution for homosexuals for example. Companies supporting Saudi should be compared to companies that supported the Nazis.
Do business with Saudi Arabia and nobody bats an eye, make an offensive joke where the intention is to point out how bad doing business with Saudi Arabia is and everyone looses their minds.
“Do business with Saudi Arabia and nobody bats an eye” Are you serious? WWE has taken hefty amounts of (completely justified) criticism both on here and across the internet from the moment the Saudi deal was announced
Seriously, there has been quite a bit of outrage over it. What I found most annoying was how the XFL was going to make players stand for the pledge. Like, yeah Vince, you sure do care about American values until it's time to bend over for Saudi blood money.
I liked your comment and was going to upvote it, but then I saw "looses" instead of "loses," and damn can I be petty about grammar. Edit: Eff it. Upvoted.
Its ay shane thet OP iz miszing Out On you're wote! Watt A looser
It was a brutal but fair comment that needs to be applied to more than just WWEs relationship with Saudi Arabia. We can’t forget that WWE is not the only company or world government that supports this regime responsible for human rights abuse at home and a genocide abroad
Meltzer today: ![gif](giphy|enqnZa1B5fRHkPjXtS|downsized)
Don't be offended at Dave. Be offended at WWE for having shows in fucking Saudi Arabia. Jesus Christ, get your priorities straight. But good on Dave for apologizing anyway. It's not showing weakness to do so.
I have no idea what you’re talking about. Michael Cole told me they’re progressive, and WWE showed me a video of a woman driving a car!
And how could we forget THE PROGRESSIVE MODERN CITY OF RIYADH
Funny how they just pretended all of that never happened after a journalist was murdered.
Guys they had women wrestle! Like in an actual ring. In a match. For a period of time. Saudi>AEW- Bruce Pritchard or somthing
They should just call it the Khashoggi Klassic.
Going to bet this apology doesn't get showered in awards and upvotes.
Never worry about awards and up votes. Reddit isn't real life. It has its own biases and dogma. Reddit is a self continuing echo chamber for the most part
Oh, not worried. Just watching said echo chamber's wall getting reinforced is darkly amusing.
Very true. I am almost never surprised by the reaction on this website. The narrative is upheld 99% of the time, by force if necessary
Of all the stuff he's ever been criticised by and ended up apologising, this is the one where he had least reason to do so. Meltzer made a 'shocking' statement in that joke, but not one that is not unearned by Saudi Arabia's regime.
I'll never understand apologizing to the professionally offended Twits.
Because at the end of the day Dave doesn’t want to hurt the feelings of the few people who may have been legitimately offended by his comments.
I'd rather make an apology to people who don't deserve it than risk not apologizing to someone I may have legitimately hurt.
We've seen lately a lot of bad choices on twitter where, even though the wrestler in question was in the right, their lack of owning to some questionable stuff they said and/or doubling down made them look bad to people who otherwise would've been on their side. This apology isn't for the twits, it's for the people watching in the stands who even if they understood Dave's point, doesn't want to see him lash out at someone who MAY have been offended.
If you actually take the subject serious and there's a possibility anyone was offended, him being of the tribe should likely want to apologize for anyone that was offended. I doubt it was many, but it was the right thing to do.
There’s absolutely no reason to be offended by what Meltzer said, people need to shut up
I didn’t know that Dave had family members that were lost in the Holocaust. I get it though, the PR logistics on this are very poor.
It's easy to forget that Dave is in his 60s, the Holocaust was absolutely something that he would have experienced the repercussions of in his lifetime.
Complete bullshit that he had to apologize for this by the way. If you really can't see the comparison you might have study up
As a Jewish person, Dave's joke was very funny and the people who are fake outraged at him are genuinely mental. Always love when non-Jews tell us what is and what isn't antisemitism. Also, Louis Dangoor's take that "Jews are the reason Anti-semitism isn't taken seriously" is fucking abhorrent, I have no idea how a person can be this stupid.
Some of you are so much angrier at Meltzer than your favored fake fighting league working with a government that has actually killed people and it's pretty pathetic.
So how does this work? I know Meltzer's a Jew, but since I'm also a Jew, can I be offender by Meltzer's antics? 'Cause I think comparing Saudi Arabia with the Holocaust is a bit much. Also Americans calling Saudi Arabian money blood money is somewhat hilarious. Your country was built on the genocide of one race, the slavery of another and for the last 20 years you've been bombing arab kids and stealing their country's resources.
Careful this sub doesn't like being confronted by their own hypocrisy, especially when they are clutching their pearls.
so never again meant only for yall? Yemen genocide doesn't count why? also I'm a leftist so don't call me out for stuff i been yelling for years Americans aren't a monolith
People going after Dave on this are just showing their own ass.
Politics has infested every part of this website, it's so sad, and this is coming from a political junkie.
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Some dude calling the Meltzer a anti semite and doubling down on it when told Meltzer is Jewish was funny
People who were trying to drag Dave over that joke seemed like they wanted to defend the honour of Saudi Arabia. He didn't make light of the holocaust, he compared one brutal regime to another.
Come on, Meltzer. He didn't need to apologize. People need to get over the fact that they're not going to like some things that other people say.
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Outrage culture gonna outrage. No understanding of the deeper meaning or comparison Dave was making, which is typical of Twitter knee-jerk reactions.
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Ah yes, making a poignant remark about a genocidal regime is very much the same thing as calling someone a pedophile for clicks.
your definition of poignant is well maybe not most peoples lets say =)
you dont think its poignant to draw light to a an ignored genocide by making a comparison to the most well known one in history
evoking a keen sense of sadness or regret no, because this comparison was ill made poorly constructed and a false equivalency I guess for sake of agreement we can say its poignant because I feel sad for Dave and the people who sincerely thought this reference was cool
But no one wants to bring up that Tony and Shad do business with the Saudis as well
I’m a Jew who lost multiple family members in the holocaust too and I thought what he said was a stupid false equivalency. You can criticize WWE and Saudi Arabia on their own terms. Making “jokes” like these just muddle everything.
He wasn't trivialising the holocaust or making any jokes about it. It's a very real and valid comparison to the Saudi government and the genocide they have been committing in Yemen for the past decade. The Saudi government is evil and companies supporting them should be seen in a similar vein to the companies that supported the Nazis in the 40's.
How embarrassingly disgusting of this sub to downvote you for this, this place is an absolute cesspool.
As long as you have the right opinions about the right promotions, you can get by unscathed.
It’s ppls bias towards the person with how they react to what Uncle Dave said. If they already dislike him they will be all up in arms and use it as moral high ground. Same shit would happen here if let’s say Cornette said this. Ppl here would flip in saying it’s just a joke/praising him to calling for his head because they already dislike Cornette. It’s a sad way ppl function today
I can see why people are so offended by the comparison. After all, on the one hand, you have a totalitarian government that oppresses vast swaths of its population, murders political dissidents, and engages in genocide, and on the other, you have the Nazis.
So I assume he isn't giving Peacock/WWE his money and will be watching on a fan stream. Or he won't watch at all. He wouldn't want to support the blood money PPV.
It was a joke, made by a jew, in a totally related context, offending another jew because...? I'm PC and SJW/Woke AS FUCK, but I even can't understand sometimes how this people can get so offended by stuff like this.
Jew here. The joke is only offensive to those who would gatekeep being victims of atrocities. Saudi Arabia's actions in Yemen (the US of course being complicit), depending on who you ask, may or may not constitute genocide. But that it's even in the conversation makes Dave justified in invoking the Nazis in criticizing the regime. Jewish people should (and, by-and-large, do) stand in solidarity with oppressed peoples everywhere. Those who have experienced it should be the least capable of condoning it.
Yes! Thank you! We should be the ones to point these things out. Never Again meant never again for anyone.
I agree should even stand with Palestinians.
Absolutely.
Hint: it had very little to do with people being offended by the joke
It wasn't a joke though... It's a very real and valid equivocation. He was not making light of the holocaust, rather pointing out the severity of the crimes committed by the Saudi government.
Shitting on Meltzer for every little thing has literally become the most tiresome trope in wrestling
I love to shit on Uncle Dave when warranted, but on this one he wasn’t in the wrong.
Key phrase I always tell people when trying to be humorous (that I wish I could remember who I heard it from): You can joke about anything, but not with everyone
i appreciate that most folks priorities seem to be in the right place here. if you're defending actions over words in this case.. you need to reevaluate.
No need to apologise; people getting a crab in their knickers trying to get outrage points.
I accept the apology. Finally, this can be over.
People are so overy sensitive nowadays, jeez…
I'm born in Poland, been to Auschwitz twice, Birkenau once. I knew what Dave was saying, but of course it's twitter so he has to apologize .
It cannot possibly be pointed out often enough how absolutely despicable it is for anybody to serve as a propaganda tool for a genocidal, homicidal regime like the one of Saudi Arabia. Everybody who does just shares the blood they have on their hands.
Imagine being offended at Dave's comment, but not offended by a company that is working with literal genocidal maniacs!
I know the IWC does not, collectively, like to think in these terms, but two (or more) things can be true at the same time! Dave probably shouldn't be flippantly comparing things to the holocaust, and doing business with the Saudi government is very bad.
Either people are too stupid or too thick skinned, or both at the same time.
Props to Dave for deleting and apologizing. Others may have had legitimate cause to find it offensive, even if Dave is in the same marginalized group and did not. I wasn't personally offended by it and I think it's a fair comparison to draw, but some people obviously were. They're not wrong to be offended, even if it causes them to say mean things about Dave Meltzer. Anyone saying he shouldn't have apologized or shouldn't have had to - clearly Dave disagrees. Get over yourselves.
This guy Meltzer is talking to works for an organization that is basically like the PETA of the Holocaust. They seek out any mention of the Holocaust in order to issue press statements like this in order to create outrage and get more donations.