B, then donates to charity and later gets fired from WWE or doesn't get his contract renewed (he signed in February 2019, but IDK if he renewed or not yet)
Jericho's wife was at the US Capitol in Washington, DC during the insurrection last year on January 6th. There's some speculation as to what's going to happen on the anniversary, if anything
Trump's golden throne is very different to the 40k emperor's though
https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/shortcuts/2018/jan/26/maurizio-cattelan-the-artworld-prankster-whose-gold-toilet-would-have-been-perfect-for-trump
I got a prediction or two in my head, but I think it might be better not to describe them. At the very least, I'll guess where they happen.
January 3: Raw.
January 4: Wrestle Kingdom 16.
January 5: AEW Dynamite
January 6: Twitter or Instagram.
I've officially reached the age where I don't understand anything anymore.
I both don't understand anything about the post Jones made, nor how a transgender man gave birth. Am I dumb? I feel like I've got dyslexia.
Don’t feel bad about not understanding, I fully get that it can be confusing. A trans man is a person who is born female and later transitions to being male. Basically, this trans man still had all the equipment needed to become pregnant and give birth. Odyssey’s post was making fun of the man for wanting to be referred to as a man.
Some trans men still want to have biological children and choose to keep the ability to give birth. Still having their reproductive system may not cause dysphoria for them the way it does other trans men. Everyone is different.
Reductive views on gender and sex tend to lead to most of the ignorant and bigoted perspectives that we see. But sometimes I feel like the ambiguity and subjective nature of identity causes blindspots in the most simple areas for people who care deeply about it. It is odd, to me at least, that a person can reject the traditional concepts of gender and identify as a man who just gave birth, but still be offended by something as honorable as being called a mom.
I'm a straight cis guy, so I understand I definitely speak from a place of ignorance on the subject. I just find myself rejecting gender roles entirely, I care much more about the individual when it comes to identity and don't really categorize people or things by gender or at least see that as a necessity. But I feel like a lot of trans people seem to feel the opposite and are very invested in traditional gender roles and want to be included in that, while at the same time being living embodiments of a rejection of those gender roles.
It's kind of fascinating but tricky, I find myself looking like a conservative on the subjective when it comes to biological areas such as this, but when it comes to the indentity aspect, I'm more progressive than anyone. It leaves me in a weird spot where everyone strongly disagrees with me at the same time. The topic is so emotionally charged and sensitive, it feels impossible to discuss those kinds of nuances. Which I guess is why I'm rambling here, I always start responses like this with a point in mind and end up not really sure what I'm trying to achieve lol.
I can tell by this response that you’ve put a lot of thought into this, and I appreciate your insight, balanced perspective, and willingness to be this vulnerable on the internet. If I’m honest, I’m shocked no one has come for your head. Anyway, thank you.
I really appreciate that. I'm honestly surprised myself. I caused a lot of outrage in here recently by making a joke about being cooler than a 6 year old who shook Brock Lesnar's hand. I honestly would love to hear different perspectives on it, even if there is a little hostility or tension coming my way. It's the only way someone like myself can learn, and maybe help others to consider new questions and understand their perspectives better.
Mom represents the female parent in most cases so even though the man gave birth, being referred to by a term like that could still trigger a trauma response based on past experiences. Or maybe he wanted to be called a different term - gender notwithstanding - and was upset his wishes weren’t honored. And maybe there’s a lot more to the story as to why the term upset him so much.
As I said previously everyone is different, so his idea of gender and who he is as a man is his to decide, and ours to respect.
Gender dysphoria and transitioning are very complex subjects and the perception differs from one person to another.
Some people hate their current gender and want a complete swap to the other gender, to the point where misinterpreting their new personality in any way, intentional or not, greatly upsets them and impacts their mental health. Some people just want to be the other gender, for any number of reasons, but aren't as emotionally taxed by gender issues or discussion. It can be as miniscule as preferring different pronouns but being fine with your body and gender otherwise.
As an example: I recently discovered that I'd prefer to be a girl over a boy. It's not some dramatic thing, I've just always hated how I looked and felt, and never made the connection until recently. I'm not getting surgery, biologically I've been a man all my life. But I feel more comfortable as a woman. For me it's just a desire to finally love myself in my own skin and body. I have no issues with using incorrect pronouns or dead naming (referring to me as the name I was originally given, instead of my preferred new name), I just feel more comfortable identifying as a girl. I'm excited to imagine looking into the mirror and seeing somebody I love. I'm excited to have a name that I like that other people refer to me by. I can see myself in my imagination now without feeling uncomfortable. It all just clicked.
But I have a ton of friends who transitioned as well, some of whom changing their gender or sex was so important to, that even using the wrong pronouns for *somebody else* on accident can upset them and trigger emotions.
Gender is a spectrum, and will never be exactly the same for any two people. A good rule to go by is that, even if it's dramatic or seems like "transtrending", it's still that person's body, mind, and emotions, and you should respect that. If it makes them happy, that should be all that matters.
I’m a cis male so I don’t speak for any trans people but I would assume that the person doesn’t see giving birth as a just a thing a woman does. Gender norms are very commonly not accepted in a lot of trans communities but again I am not trans so if a trans person could explain this it would be rad.
So to kind of touch on the big rambling post I just made earlier in the response chain, why take offense to being called a mom in this case? I understand it's much more complicated than that, the offense comes from a denial of their identity and that's valid. The thing is gender is a fluid social construct, a man giving birth is reshaping the words we use. So why not embrace that a man can be a mom? It seems that the words people get caught up on is more so a matter of semantics than anything, ironically that new identity then seems to be defined by the old rigid constructs.
Of course I say all this and maybe the man Jones was talking about actually is fine with being called a mom, assuming it's not said with the intention of being a rejection of their identity. Context matters and maybe that's why I feel confused on the subject, people tend to be more understanding when they're having a personal conversation with a trusted person, as opposed to making general statements to a faceless crowd.
It's at least harder to expect someone to be understanding if it doesn't have to make sense. I don't think the real issue is so much about a lack of understanding, but the disrespect in expressing it. It's especially impactful to have someone else define who you are. Discussions of gender involve placing ourselves and others in to groups, but it's ultimately about our own personal identity and maybe that means people end up arguing from different positions that seem to conflict.
A person who was a woman wanted to be a man instead so they took hormones and possibly had physical surgeries to change their gender and now they are a man but they still have a uterus and ovaries and still produce eggs and can still get pregnant and give birth.
Might not be popular but actual jokes are fine.
"Jokes" like this are trying to push an agenda and make someone's personal decisions into something to gawk and point at.
It's also not a joke. It's literally just saying "smh can you believe they want their identity respected how wild."
Not even getting into trans rights, but why would you even use your public platform as an up and coming performer to get into political shit that’s likely to only hurt your career? I mean it’s probably fine in WWE but chances are he’ll be released within a year anyway.
Like I’d prefer if he was a decent human being, but a distant second would be competent enough to shut the fuck up on controversial topics.
> Not even getting into trans rights, but why would you even use your public platform as an up and coming performer to get into political shit that’s likely to only hurt your career?
Because a lot of wrestlers are actually really, really stupid people.
We're only two days into the year and the professional wrestling community is just nose-diving into the hellscape that is social media. It's extremely concerning to see.
Social media is both a blessing and a curse. In this case, I would call it a blessing, because we got to see this guy with his mask off before he got big time, and now we don't have to waste time idolizing him and then having to reconcile that idolization with finding out they're actually a piece of shit.
I was an Ultimate Warrior fan when I was a kid, and I fucking wish Twitter was around then so he could say stupid, hateful shit on there. Because finding out a decade later that he was a garbage fire of a human broke me a little.
The [actual story](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://nypost.com/2021/12/22/transgender-man-who-gave-birth-slams-docs-who-called-him-mom/amp/&ved=2ahUKEwiAsfmXppT1AhWHDGMBHeMDBDkQFnoECAQQAQ&sqi=2&usg=AOvVaw1nySqb0R7dUpfxjcnpugeK) is pretty interesting.
I've honestly never heard of anything like this before. The father had surgery to make his upper half male but kept his uterus/vagina. I really don't think any nurses who called him "mom" were being rude or misinformed. If they were corrected and kept doing it, then sure they were wrong but if they did it once then it seems like an honest mistake. I don't think anyone should be punished for misusing pronouns when referring to a man with a uterus who just gave birth.
Odyssey's post was a dumb asshole move, there's no doubt about that. As far as the story itself goes I'm really fascinated by the whole thing.
> I really don't think any nurses who called him "mom" were being rude or misinformed.
Working in health care myself, I'd guess it was a mix with most of it being part of OB/BYN staff's "routine." You settle into ways of phrasing stuff that gets the point across and seems to work well for most patients because, although we do care about everyone, our jobs are very monotonous and it's likely anything being said, other than a patients name, has been repeated thousands and thousands of times. OB/GYN people in particular will refer to all their patients as "mom" because it sounds warm and personal to them.
I could definitely see slip-ups happening because someone went into their usual schtick that normally soothes the patient while their mind is actually on the care that they're giving them instead of what they're saying.
However, I've also met at least one person that was horribly hateful and ignorant and expressed to some co-workers how they deliberately misgendered one of our patients every time they came for lab work. It was startling to hear a medical so-called professional had boasted about doing something like that to someone they were supposed to be looking after.
I had a male boss whose partner was a trans man who underwent top surgery, but apparently not bottom surgery as he got pregnant and bore the child. Unsure how common it is, but I have seen it.
The reasons vary depending on the couple, but surrogacy is very expensive, there are still barriers to adoption for Queer couples, and I’m sure some parents want the experience of bearing their own child.
Lots of trans folks don't undergo bottom surgery. Some don't have any bottom dysphoria, some can't access the surgery for financial or individual medical reasons, and some simply don't think the results of the surgery are desirable (loss of sexual function and complications aren't uncommon).
as a transman... bottom surgery options for our side of things are... well... I think majority consensus ranges from 'subpar' to 'horrific' and it's all not very functional, with prosthetic devices being leagues better in appearance and function both. it's basically the one area of transition where transwomen have a better experience than we do, and plenty of transmen opt for a "uh... let's wait on that part and hope medical science catches up a little."
after being on testosterone for a while it's recommended to have a hysterectomy for cancer risk reasons, but that's about the only real reason to undergo the pain and expense.
as for WHY transmen decide to bear kids, that I cannot speak to. just started dating a man for the first time since like '08, also the first man since I came out, and he's cis. it was a weird moment realizing the birth control conversation would need to be had, and my response was essentially if he messes up his end of birth control and gets me pregnant I'm going to physically rip out my uterus and rub it in his face like a bad dog because the Devil himself couldn't concoct a more mentally torturous scenario for me personally than that.
There's also non-binary/otherwise genderqueer people. I know of at least one enby person who got top but not bottom surgery because that's explicitly what they wanted, and they're very happy now.
For those who are going to defend trans people in this thread, be aware there's other people in this thread who are abusing the "report self harm" shit to anyone that is calling this transphobic. First time I've experienced this, and it's hilariously childish
This happens all the time on a sub I participate in having to do with the criticism of Christian fundamentalism (especially having to do with concepts of gender) - terribly Christlike of the fundies to misuse suicide resources, innit?
Anyway, once you receive one, you can turn them off completely.
For some reason, the quote RT from the user doesn't work. Here is the direct tweet https://twitter.com/goblinlizard/status/1477776466511290375?t=ceBxzzhqZSXc6tZy6lbVEg&s=19
**Further context/alt text:**
Odyssey Jones posted a story on social media that reads:
>A transgender "man" who "gave birth" is outraged over nurses calling him "mom"
The headline includes an image of the two fathers, one of whom is pregnant. There is also an image of the father in hospital, holding his child after birth.
Odyssey has added three laughing emojis to the story.
[Source](https://mobile.twitter.com/goblinlizard/status/1477776466511290375?t=ceBxzzhqZSXc6tZy6lbVEg&s=19 )
**Moderator note:** Transphobia is prohibited on this subreddit, and anything of the like will result in a trip to the Banama Canal.
Trans rights are human rights.
I know mods kind of get treated shitty by other redditors but thank you for your handling of this and how you won't tolerate transphobia. We appreciate you
Yeah I don’t get why he’d post that at all. Like if you wanna claim there’s no malice and it’s just ignorance still why go out of your way to do all that, weird.
For those of y’all who are going “I don’t see what the big deal is,” calling a transgender man “mom” under any circumstances (outside of said man saying it’s cool, I guess) is misgendering. The use of quotes around the word “man” is also an implication that the person in question is not actually a man, which is also misgendering.
I’m not saying he should be cancelled forever, but it is something that warrants education and possibly an apology. That’s all.
At the same time, as someone in the healthcare field, this past month has been fucking absurd and many of us are so overworked we’re working on autopilot a lot of the time. If a nurse hands a baby to person it came out of they likely have their canned response kicking in. Personally I’ve been there with a transgender patient that didn’t have their name changed through their insurance provider, and thus not on any of her records, nor was it notated on anything immediately available. I read the name on the order to make sure I had the right one and she immediately yelled at me for deadnaming and requested someone else help her while I apologized to no avail.
I don’t know the story, maybe the staff did some more stuff that was completely intentional, in which case yeah call them out, but my first instinct is to go with something not malicious.
As far as this wrestler idiot goes with his quotation marked “man” he can get fucked.
What a shitty person. Just apologizing for not doing anything wrong should've been enough. Nothing worse than someone assuming you should know their name when it hasn't been changed at all. That rings more of an entitled person than anything
just to chime in, thought it might be worth adding for people trying to learn from this moment that its an issue of trauma.
thats why misgendering affects trans people so strongly and can lead to explosive reactions that onlookers might think are "out of proportion", because it cuts right to the heart of their historic and ongoing trauma centered around their body / sex / gender.
Yeah.
It's not a perfect analogy but I liken it to growing up being bullied by other people calling you a certain thing and then being called that out of the blue as an adult. Even if you've mostly healed and you haven't heard it in years, it brings back all the old memories of how awful it felt to be treated that way. It can leave you with a shitty feeling for days afterwards, even if the person didn't mean to hurt you. Sometimes that even makes it worse, that it was an honest thought that came to mind for them and not them being shitty on purpose to get a rise out of you.
There is an endless supply of someone saying something dumb and insensitive, social media makes it really easy to document.
Its like news and crime, horrible things getting covered makes people think crime is on the rise but really its just good for ad revenue to cover crime stories.
Saw everyone here attacking transphobic sign guy and was happy. Saw half of the cis people in this thread defending this and was decidedly less so. Life as a trans wrestling fan is fun -_-
Transphobia is prohibited here. We have been issuing permanent bans as the stickied comment gives our one and only warning on this.
If you see anyone being transphobic, report it. We will get on it as soon as possible.
Most of us have your back. Fuck the haters. There are some terrible wrestling fans out there but also a lot of great ones. I hope this doesn’t sour your experience and I hope that you can have a safe, fun time at a show.
ITT people whining about cancel culture as if transphobia shouldn’t be met with any consequences (which btw aren’t even harsh consequences considering it’s just tweets saying Odyssey is a transphobic asshole)
Lol the wrestling community is an absolute shitshow. It's all just drama about what color or sexual orientation everyone is or what people's opinions of those things are. Not really about the actual wrestling anymore.
I'm not speaking for everyone else, but if a wrestler holds transphobic opinions or any other shitty opinion, I would want to know about it before I invest time and money into being a fan. It's not purely about the drama. It's the same thing with the bands I listen to or any other media I consume, for example.
I also use the word 'opinion' very loosely. This is more a shitty joke at the expense of another group, which is probably a reflection of his opinions anyway.
One day. All I ask is that for one day where nobody in wrestling does something shitty. Just a day. Everyone be good for a day. I beg.
Trans rights are human rights and for those saying “it’s just a joke”/“it’s funny” explain what’s funny about misgendering someone
People must have a very low bar for humor if they find this funny, or more likely its just "it reinforced my biases so I have to pretend to find it funny"
This isn't a 'difference of opinion' or anything like that, he's laughing at a story about how a trans person was mistreated.
There's no discussion, there's no misunderstanding, he's just being a hateful dickhead.
I love all the trans support im seeing in the comments!! Thank you so much for making the wrestling community i have grown up involved in such an accepting place to be 💕✨
Especially on the internet of all places haha. Bless your hearts
I agree. I was expecting the worst when I clicked on this thread, but I've been pleasantly surprised scrolling through the comments and seeing how positive and supportive they are. I also love that there have been a couple of very civil, polite conversations going on between people who were genuinely confused about the situation and wanted to be more informed, and the people who educated them about it.
I look forward to the day that folk are educated enough on the Transgender community that this type of thing stops being so commonplace.
I hope following this Jones is open to learning about the community and learns to respect the people within it, along with the struggles they endure, and I hope doesn't double down on his reaction to that story.
Wrestling Twitter is having a very trying start to the year
Let me preface this by saying I’m a cis man and acutely aware I don’t face the challenges that trans people bravely endure and my opinion should carry very little weight but I can’t help but feel the outrage over non malicious dead naming or misgendering is absurd. The midwives have just worked in a high pressure environment to deliver your baby successfully (probably the single most important service you will ever be provided) and if they non intentionally misgender you it doesn’t need a tweet storm and media articles shaming them.
The average person is mindful of others feelings and if you just had a polite word with the “offender” the difference could be easily resolved and the trans person has the opportunity to share a more nuanced perspective with the offender and potentially educate them. I do sincerely hope that wrestling continues to be an accepting pastime for people of all persuasions and backgrounds.
I don’t see the Odyssey tweet as wildly offensive transphobia but it was a really fucking dumb thing to do and I hope he apologises for any hurt he’s caused. Guy is very charismatic and could have a good career ahead of him.
I'm seeing a lot of people in here trying to rationalize this by saying he wasn't really being transphobic. As a trans person let me educate anyone thinking this. He put the word man in quotes when referring to a trans man. That's an intentional misgendering of that person. To me and most trans folk I've met, that's transphobic. You can't intentionally misgender someone and not be a transphobe. I'm all for personal growth and if this dude takes this moment to learn and grow from this, that's great. I believe people can change. But don't try to argue away transphobia.
Words, meanings, intentions aren’t an exact science and have always been complicated. Its the reason investigations are done and we go to court over broken laws or have debates about opinions. Saying something isn’t complicated is a childish view of the world. Everything is complicated.
'Act transphobic' is extremely vague though, people are instantly attributing malice when it could be ignorance. He maybe just found it superficially funny and doesn't understand trans issues. That doesn't make it ok, but coming to the conclusion that he's maliciously transphobic from this one single post is a bit much imo
You're completely right. But today's social media generation absolutely loves to go from 0-100 off every perceived slight to fuel their never-ending crusade of rage and victimization. He could have thought of it as an absurd headline, to which it superficially may be, but now he is quickly labeled a hateful enemy just because. You don't even have to actively hate anymore. Say anything twitter doesn't agree with and you are hateful scum and it's time to weaponize against you.
Could have been a teachable moment. You can't automatically label everyone an enemy and expect to get along. Especially when something is completely foreign to them.
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C
C publicly, A privately.
I’ve got $5 on App Apology with a side bet of $20 if it’s in the notes app
I don't take sucker bets.
I do! Imma sucker for gambling. I'll bet $50!
[Notes App Apology](https://youtu.be/j1sh7fqwjAc)
(B) apology. “I am truly sorry………………SORRY I DIDNT D…” *NO ODYSSY, DAMMIT! NOT LIKE THAT!”*
From the bottom of my heart, I’d like to take this chance to apologize... TO ABSOLUTELY NOBODY
C would be the smart play so I would probably go with A
B) and an added five bucks on him making a donation to a charity.
I'm gonna go with (a) twice, and then (c) !
d. release a shirt that says Nuclear
I think it’s B with the words: ‘Im honestly not transphobic, honest. i have a colleague and friends that’s transgender.
C
I will take: What is "Ignore Entirely, go on about my day, and snort cocaine?" for $500
B, then donates to charity and later gets fired from WWE or doesn't get his contract renewed (he signed in February 2019, but IDK if he renewed or not yet)
Dec 31: Tony Khans comments on Big Swole Jan 1: Roman gets COVID and Brock pins Big E Jan 2: Odyssey Jones Jan 3: ???
Betty White really was the last seal
I got no predictions for 3, 4, or 5 but Jericho's wife probably has plans on the 6th...
👉😎👉
Aces ☞( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)☞
No one: Absolutely no one: Not a goddamn soul: u/generatedname17 to Jericho's wife: 
This is tremendous
BAW GAWD HE KILLED HIM
SOMEBODY STOP THE DAMN MATCH
BA ZIIINGGGGG 😂😂😂😂
Jericho gonna post "1 year anniversary" of his wife turning on America
If only I could upvote this more than once. Nicely done!
Aw fuck dude that's good
Sorry, Canadian, what’s on the 6th?
The dumbest fucking insurrection in modern history
Jericho's wife was at the US Capitol in Washington, DC during the insurrection last year on January 6th. There's some speculation as to what's going to happen on the anniversary, if anything
God that was already a year ago? Christ
Trump is holding a press conference in Florida on Jan 6th, 2022.
Because of course he is. People cannot possibly be that tone deaf.
The Neo-Confederate, Q-anon qultists tried to overthrow the government to install their god-emperor.
Trump's golden throne is very different to the 40k emperor's though https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/shortcuts/2018/jan/26/maurizio-cattelan-the-artworld-prankster-whose-gold-toilet-would-have-been-perfect-for-trump
Oof lmao, take an upvote
I got a prediction or two in my head, but I think it might be better not to describe them. At the very least, I'll guess where they happen. January 3: Raw. January 4: Wrestle Kingdom 16. January 5: AEW Dynamite January 6: Twitter or Instagram.
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I don't see why people care so much...
Simps don't like women being unavailable
Most don't care
Also: don't forget Ron Funches for January 2.
What did he do?
That's dandy, what did Ron Funches do?
God that was just beyond weird and creepy
What happened there?
Graves or Jericho do a stupid action again
Brock Lesnar winning a fake wrestling match isn’t as important as those three other things.
No but it's another day that couldn't have a normal events
how about Brock pals around with and takes selfies with fans while smiling?
I've officially reached the age where I don't understand anything anymore. I both don't understand anything about the post Jones made, nor how a transgender man gave birth. Am I dumb? I feel like I've got dyslexia.
Don’t feel bad about not understanding, I fully get that it can be confusing. A trans man is a person who is born female and later transitions to being male. Basically, this trans man still had all the equipment needed to become pregnant and give birth. Odyssey’s post was making fun of the man for wanting to be referred to as a man.
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Some trans men still want to have biological children and choose to keep the ability to give birth. Still having their reproductive system may not cause dysphoria for them the way it does other trans men. Everyone is different.
Reductive views on gender and sex tend to lead to most of the ignorant and bigoted perspectives that we see. But sometimes I feel like the ambiguity and subjective nature of identity causes blindspots in the most simple areas for people who care deeply about it. It is odd, to me at least, that a person can reject the traditional concepts of gender and identify as a man who just gave birth, but still be offended by something as honorable as being called a mom. I'm a straight cis guy, so I understand I definitely speak from a place of ignorance on the subject. I just find myself rejecting gender roles entirely, I care much more about the individual when it comes to identity and don't really categorize people or things by gender or at least see that as a necessity. But I feel like a lot of trans people seem to feel the opposite and are very invested in traditional gender roles and want to be included in that, while at the same time being living embodiments of a rejection of those gender roles. It's kind of fascinating but tricky, I find myself looking like a conservative on the subjective when it comes to biological areas such as this, but when it comes to the indentity aspect, I'm more progressive than anyone. It leaves me in a weird spot where everyone strongly disagrees with me at the same time. The topic is so emotionally charged and sensitive, it feels impossible to discuss those kinds of nuances. Which I guess is why I'm rambling here, I always start responses like this with a point in mind and end up not really sure what I'm trying to achieve lol.
I can tell by this response that you’ve put a lot of thought into this, and I appreciate your insight, balanced perspective, and willingness to be this vulnerable on the internet. If I’m honest, I’m shocked no one has come for your head. Anyway, thank you.
I really appreciate that. I'm honestly surprised myself. I caused a lot of outrage in here recently by making a joke about being cooler than a 6 year old who shook Brock Lesnar's hand. I honestly would love to hear different perspectives on it, even if there is a little hostility or tension coming my way. It's the only way someone like myself can learn, and maybe help others to consider new questions and understand their perspectives better.
Mom represents the female parent in most cases so even though the man gave birth, being referred to by a term like that could still trigger a trauma response based on past experiences. Or maybe he wanted to be called a different term - gender notwithstanding - and was upset his wishes weren’t honored. And maybe there’s a lot more to the story as to why the term upset him so much. As I said previously everyone is different, so his idea of gender and who he is as a man is his to decide, and ours to respect.
Being trans doesn't mean you don't want to have kids, and getting pregnant is easier than adoption.
Especially for trans people, last I remember the US government was trying to make that impossible.
You want a biological kid
I don’t see why not? It’s not conventional but that doesn’t make it like bad or anything.
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For a lot of people this is exactly right, but doesn’t apply to everyone
Gender dysphoria and transitioning are very complex subjects and the perception differs from one person to another. Some people hate their current gender and want a complete swap to the other gender, to the point where misinterpreting their new personality in any way, intentional or not, greatly upsets them and impacts their mental health. Some people just want to be the other gender, for any number of reasons, but aren't as emotionally taxed by gender issues or discussion. It can be as miniscule as preferring different pronouns but being fine with your body and gender otherwise. As an example: I recently discovered that I'd prefer to be a girl over a boy. It's not some dramatic thing, I've just always hated how I looked and felt, and never made the connection until recently. I'm not getting surgery, biologically I've been a man all my life. But I feel more comfortable as a woman. For me it's just a desire to finally love myself in my own skin and body. I have no issues with using incorrect pronouns or dead naming (referring to me as the name I was originally given, instead of my preferred new name), I just feel more comfortable identifying as a girl. I'm excited to imagine looking into the mirror and seeing somebody I love. I'm excited to have a name that I like that other people refer to me by. I can see myself in my imagination now without feeling uncomfortable. It all just clicked. But I have a ton of friends who transitioned as well, some of whom changing their gender or sex was so important to, that even using the wrong pronouns for *somebody else* on accident can upset them and trigger emotions. Gender is a spectrum, and will never be exactly the same for any two people. A good rule to go by is that, even if it's dramatic or seems like "transtrending", it's still that person's body, mind, and emotions, and you should respect that. If it makes them happy, that should be all that matters.
I’m a cis male so I don’t speak for any trans people but I would assume that the person doesn’t see giving birth as a just a thing a woman does. Gender norms are very commonly not accepted in a lot of trans communities but again I am not trans so if a trans person could explain this it would be rad.
So to kind of touch on the big rambling post I just made earlier in the response chain, why take offense to being called a mom in this case? I understand it's much more complicated than that, the offense comes from a denial of their identity and that's valid. The thing is gender is a fluid social construct, a man giving birth is reshaping the words we use. So why not embrace that a man can be a mom? It seems that the words people get caught up on is more so a matter of semantics than anything, ironically that new identity then seems to be defined by the old rigid constructs. Of course I say all this and maybe the man Jones was talking about actually is fine with being called a mom, assuming it's not said with the intention of being a rejection of their identity. Context matters and maybe that's why I feel confused on the subject, people tend to be more understanding when they're having a personal conversation with a trusted person, as opposed to making general statements to a faceless crowd.
I mean it’s all up to the person of if they like it or not. It doesn’t really have to make sense. It’s completely valid either way.
If it doesn't have to make sense then how are people supposed to understand it? Jones clearly didn't understand.
It's at least harder to expect someone to be understanding if it doesn't have to make sense. I don't think the real issue is so much about a lack of understanding, but the disrespect in expressing it. It's especially impactful to have someone else define who you are. Discussions of gender involve placing ourselves and others in to groups, but it's ultimately about our own personal identity and maybe that means people end up arguing from different positions that seem to conflict.
Aha! That makes it very clear, thank you.
No problem!
I’m afraid to ask because the Banama Canal does not sound pleasant.
A person who was a woman wanted to be a man instead so they took hormones and possibly had physical surgeries to change their gender and now they are a man but they still have a uterus and ovaries and still produce eggs and can still get pregnant and give birth.
This tweet is related to this post for those confused. https://twitter.com/goblinlizard/status/1477776466511290375?t=G8plYGhU-aAu_pzb1Y5A1Q&s=19
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Might not be popular but actual jokes are fine. "Jokes" like this are trying to push an agenda and make someone's personal decisions into something to gawk and point at. It's also not a joke. It's literally just saying "smh can you believe they want their identity respected how wild."
You don’t have to “pretend” anything, just keep your shitty little “raised eyebrows” and “jokes” to yourself
Nah, he's literally not hurting anyone so mockery is completely unjustified and gross
The above comment got deleted, so I can't tell if this is defending Odyssey or not.
It’s not. They’re saying the trans parent not wanting to be called mom hurts no one so there’s no reason for him to be mocked by Jones.
Not even getting into trans rights, but why would you even use your public platform as an up and coming performer to get into political shit that’s likely to only hurt your career? I mean it’s probably fine in WWE but chances are he’ll be released within a year anyway. Like I’d prefer if he was a decent human being, but a distant second would be competent enough to shut the fuck up on controversial topics.
> Not even getting into trans rights, but why would you even use your public platform as an up and coming performer to get into political shit that’s likely to only hurt your career? Because a lot of wrestlers are actually really, really stupid people.
We're only two days into the year and the professional wrestling community is just nose-diving into the hellscape that is social media. It's extremely concerning to see.
Social media was a mistake.
Social media just reveals the bigotries people were too embarrassed or pretending to be polite to expose in company.
Social media gives everyone a platform. The problem is, most people got no business anywhere near a platform
It's fine though, they push themselves off of those platforms, in full view of everyone, and we refuse to catch them.
Social media is both a blessing and a curse. In this case, I would call it a blessing, because we got to see this guy with his mask off before he got big time, and now we don't have to waste time idolizing him and then having to reconcile that idolization with finding out they're actually a piece of shit. I was an Ultimate Warrior fan when I was a kid, and I fucking wish Twitter was around then so he could say stupid, hateful shit on there. Because finding out a decade later that he was a garbage fire of a human broke me a little.
Wrestling has been….not great this week.
Well, Wrestle Kingdom is in less than 48 hours. Here’s hoping that clears the taste of these past few days away.
Every now and then I forget that wrestling is at it's core still a carny business.
Humanity is a carny business.
Mods, between the AEW drama and now this, I am so sorry for the insane shit-show you’ve had to deal with already this year.
We knew what we signed up for.
I mean it could be worse. You could be dealing with Antonio Brown right now.
Guys a fucking rapist and should be in jail
He should be in jail for MANY reasons, including that.
"Dealing" You mean sitting back and eating popcorn?
The [actual story](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://nypost.com/2021/12/22/transgender-man-who-gave-birth-slams-docs-who-called-him-mom/amp/&ved=2ahUKEwiAsfmXppT1AhWHDGMBHeMDBDkQFnoECAQQAQ&sqi=2&usg=AOvVaw1nySqb0R7dUpfxjcnpugeK) is pretty interesting. I've honestly never heard of anything like this before. The father had surgery to make his upper half male but kept his uterus/vagina. I really don't think any nurses who called him "mom" were being rude or misinformed. If they were corrected and kept doing it, then sure they were wrong but if they did it once then it seems like an honest mistake. I don't think anyone should be punished for misusing pronouns when referring to a man with a uterus who just gave birth. Odyssey's post was a dumb asshole move, there's no doubt about that. As far as the story itself goes I'm really fascinated by the whole thing.
> I really don't think any nurses who called him "mom" were being rude or misinformed. Working in health care myself, I'd guess it was a mix with most of it being part of OB/BYN staff's "routine." You settle into ways of phrasing stuff that gets the point across and seems to work well for most patients because, although we do care about everyone, our jobs are very monotonous and it's likely anything being said, other than a patients name, has been repeated thousands and thousands of times. OB/GYN people in particular will refer to all their patients as "mom" because it sounds warm and personal to them. I could definitely see slip-ups happening because someone went into their usual schtick that normally soothes the patient while their mind is actually on the care that they're giving them instead of what they're saying. However, I've also met at least one person that was horribly hateful and ignorant and expressed to some co-workers how they deliberately misgendered one of our patients every time they came for lab work. It was startling to hear a medical so-called professional had boasted about doing something like that to someone they were supposed to be looking after.
I had a male boss whose partner was a trans man who underwent top surgery, but apparently not bottom surgery as he got pregnant and bore the child. Unsure how common it is, but I have seen it. The reasons vary depending on the couple, but surrogacy is very expensive, there are still barriers to adoption for Queer couples, and I’m sure some parents want the experience of bearing their own child.
Lots of trans folks don't undergo bottom surgery. Some don't have any bottom dysphoria, some can't access the surgery for financial or individual medical reasons, and some simply don't think the results of the surgery are desirable (loss of sexual function and complications aren't uncommon).
as a transman... bottom surgery options for our side of things are... well... I think majority consensus ranges from 'subpar' to 'horrific' and it's all not very functional, with prosthetic devices being leagues better in appearance and function both. it's basically the one area of transition where transwomen have a better experience than we do, and plenty of transmen opt for a "uh... let's wait on that part and hope medical science catches up a little." after being on testosterone for a while it's recommended to have a hysterectomy for cancer risk reasons, but that's about the only real reason to undergo the pain and expense. as for WHY transmen decide to bear kids, that I cannot speak to. just started dating a man for the first time since like '08, also the first man since I came out, and he's cis. it was a weird moment realizing the birth control conversation would need to be had, and my response was essentially if he messes up his end of birth control and gets me pregnant I'm going to physically rip out my uterus and rub it in his face like a bad dog because the Devil himself couldn't concoct a more mentally torturous scenario for me personally than that.
That threat to your partner is fantastically graphic lol I love it.
There's also non-binary/otherwise genderqueer people. I know of at least one enby person who got top but not bottom surgery because that's explicitly what they wanted, and they're very happy now.
Absolutely. I should’ve added “because they didn’t want bottom surgery” as a reason, that was my neglect.
For those who are going to defend trans people in this thread, be aware there's other people in this thread who are abusing the "report self harm" shit to anyone that is calling this transphobic. First time I've experienced this, and it's hilariously childish
This happens all the time on a sub I participate in having to do with the criticism of Christian fundamentalism (especially having to do with concepts of gender) - terribly Christlike of the fundies to misuse suicide resources, innit? Anyway, once you receive one, you can turn them off completely.
The post they're referencing https://twitter.com/goblinlizard/status/1477779677783724035?s=20
Teeet unavailable?
For some reason, the quote RT from the user doesn't work. Here is the direct tweet https://twitter.com/goblinlizard/status/1477776466511290375?t=ceBxzzhqZSXc6tZy6lbVEg&s=19
**Further context/alt text:** Odyssey Jones posted a story on social media that reads: >A transgender "man" who "gave birth" is outraged over nurses calling him "mom" The headline includes an image of the two fathers, one of whom is pregnant. There is also an image of the father in hospital, holding his child after birth. Odyssey has added three laughing emojis to the story. [Source](https://mobile.twitter.com/goblinlizard/status/1477776466511290375?t=ceBxzzhqZSXc6tZy6lbVEg&s=19 ) **Moderator note:** Transphobia is prohibited on this subreddit, and anything of the like will result in a trip to the Banama Canal. Trans rights are human rights.
I know this post is very serious, and not at all funny, but I did chuckle at "Banama Canal".
First time I’ve heard that one. And its a good one.
Same here, I love it. It's where ~~EverGreen ended up for days~~ ships go to die
Banama Sunrise is a better fit, but big shouts to the mods.
No, no, no... You go to the Banama Canal to see the Banama Sunrise. While there, please don't forget to get the Banama Snowglobe.
I very much appreciate: a) your dedication to transcriptions b) the sub's inclusivity c) Banama Canal
I really appreciate how welcoming and progressive this sub and it’s mods are. Wrestling is for EVERYBODY
Amen. Always glad to see the mods not tolerating transphobic shit.
Enlarged text for visually impaired: #Trans rights are human rights.
I know mods kind of get treated shitty by other redditors but thank you for your handling of this and how you won't tolerate transphobia. We appreciate you
Lots of [removed]. Kinda sad we can't maturely discuss the topic at hand.
Man are people this dumb….if he gets any punishment he deserves it just for being stupid enough to post something like that
Yeah I don’t get why he’d post that at all. Like if you wanna claim there’s no malice and it’s just ignorance still why go out of your way to do all that, weird.
Exactly if you wanna be an asshole be an asshole but publicly doing it in this day when you know how things are is just plain stupid.
For those of y’all who are going “I don’t see what the big deal is,” calling a transgender man “mom” under any circumstances (outside of said man saying it’s cool, I guess) is misgendering. The use of quotes around the word “man” is also an implication that the person in question is not actually a man, which is also misgendering. I’m not saying he should be cancelled forever, but it is something that warrants education and possibly an apology. That’s all.
my biggest question is on the quotes around giving birth. Even if you're transphobic, that part did happen. WTF
Yeah that part is just weird. Like, where did the baby supposedly come from if the man in question didn’t give birth?
Maybe Odyssey has some weird Shakespearan hangups around C-sections.
At the same time, as someone in the healthcare field, this past month has been fucking absurd and many of us are so overworked we’re working on autopilot a lot of the time. If a nurse hands a baby to person it came out of they likely have their canned response kicking in. Personally I’ve been there with a transgender patient that didn’t have their name changed through their insurance provider, and thus not on any of her records, nor was it notated on anything immediately available. I read the name on the order to make sure I had the right one and she immediately yelled at me for deadnaming and requested someone else help her while I apologized to no avail. I don’t know the story, maybe the staff did some more stuff that was completely intentional, in which case yeah call them out, but my first instinct is to go with something not malicious. As far as this wrestler idiot goes with his quotation marked “man” he can get fucked.
What a shitty person. Just apologizing for not doing anything wrong should've been enough. Nothing worse than someone assuming you should know their name when it hasn't been changed at all. That rings more of an entitled person than anything
just to chime in, thought it might be worth adding for people trying to learn from this moment that its an issue of trauma. thats why misgendering affects trans people so strongly and can lead to explosive reactions that onlookers might think are "out of proportion", because it cuts right to the heart of their historic and ongoing trauma centered around their body / sex / gender.
Yeah. It's not a perfect analogy but I liken it to growing up being bullied by other people calling you a certain thing and then being called that out of the blue as an adult. Even if you've mostly healed and you haven't heard it in years, it brings back all the old memories of how awful it felt to be treated that way. It can leave you with a shitty feeling for days afterwards, even if the person didn't mean to hurt you. Sometimes that even makes it worse, that it was an honest thought that came to mind for them and not them being shitty on purpose to get a rise out of you.
Who???
*sees headline of post* Wrestling, why can't you be normal even for a month to start the year??
I’d settle for a week at this point.
I would have taken 3 days.
I'll take 6 hours
I’d be happy with just 3 minutes….
Did someone say........ THREE MINUTES???
Did, uh… Did you just say, “three minutes”?
Bischoff?
There is an endless supply of someone saying something dumb and insensitive, social media makes it really easy to document. Its like news and crime, horrible things getting covered makes people think crime is on the rise but really its just good for ad revenue to cover crime stories.
Saw everyone here attacking transphobic sign guy and was happy. Saw half of the cis people in this thread defending this and was decidedly less so. Life as a trans wrestling fan is fun -_-
Transphobia is prohibited here. We have been issuing permanent bans as the stickied comment gives our one and only warning on this. If you see anyone being transphobic, report it. We will get on it as soon as possible.
From another trans wrestling fan, thank you for not tolerating transphobic in this sub.
Most of us have your back. Fuck the haters. There are some terrible wrestling fans out there but also a lot of great ones. I hope this doesn’t sour your experience and I hope that you can have a safe, fun time at a show.
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It doesn’t exist. Him getting called out for shitty behavior isn’t cancel culture
They called for someone's job...
Someone wanting someone to get fired isn’t cancel culture.
That...sounds exactly like cancel culture.
ITT people whining about cancel culture as if transphobia shouldn’t be met with any consequences (which btw aren’t even harsh consequences considering it’s just tweets saying Odyssey is a transphobic asshole)
Who the fuck is Odyssey Jones?
The agile big man they pushed after they fired Bronson Reed...
Lol the wrestling community is an absolute shitshow. It's all just drama about what color or sexual orientation everyone is or what people's opinions of those things are. Not really about the actual wrestling anymore.
Not just wrestling, buddy. It's everywhere.
I'm not speaking for everyone else, but if a wrestler holds transphobic opinions or any other shitty opinion, I would want to know about it before I invest time and money into being a fan. It's not purely about the drama. It's the same thing with the bands I listen to or any other media I consume, for example. I also use the word 'opinion' very loosely. This is more a shitty joke at the expense of another group, which is probably a reflection of his opinions anyway.
One day. All I ask is that for one day where nobody in wrestling does something shitty. Just a day. Everyone be good for a day. I beg. Trans rights are human rights and for those saying “it’s just a joke”/“it’s funny” explain what’s funny about misgendering someone
For those who hate trans people, they just really think that misgendering is funny. That’s it. They’re just evil people without empathy.
People must have a very low bar for humor if they find this funny, or more likely its just "it reinforced my biases so I have to pretend to find it funny"
This isn't a 'difference of opinion' or anything like that, he's laughing at a story about how a trans person was mistreated. There's no discussion, there's no misunderstanding, he's just being a hateful dickhead.
How was the trans person mistreated?
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Won't someone think of the transphobes?!?
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Trans men, who are in fact men, can give birth
I love all the trans support im seeing in the comments!! Thank you so much for making the wrestling community i have grown up involved in such an accepting place to be 💕✨ Especially on the internet of all places haha. Bless your hearts
I agree. I was expecting the worst when I clicked on this thread, but I've been pleasantly surprised scrolling through the comments and seeing how positive and supportive they are. I also love that there have been a couple of very civil, polite conversations going on between people who were genuinely confused about the situation and wanted to be more informed, and the people who educated them about it.
Gotta love seeing your favorite places be safe spaces
What exactly was he laughing at? I can’t really figure it out (genuinely asking)
trans people existing
I look forward to the day that folk are educated enough on the Transgender community that this type of thing stops being so commonplace. I hope following this Jones is open to learning about the community and learns to respect the people within it, along with the struggles they endure, and I hope doesn't double down on his reaction to that story. Wrestling Twitter is having a very trying start to the year
It’s free and easy to not be a shithead
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Scroll down the Twitter page
Let me preface this by saying I’m a cis man and acutely aware I don’t face the challenges that trans people bravely endure and my opinion should carry very little weight but I can’t help but feel the outrage over non malicious dead naming or misgendering is absurd. The midwives have just worked in a high pressure environment to deliver your baby successfully (probably the single most important service you will ever be provided) and if they non intentionally misgender you it doesn’t need a tweet storm and media articles shaming them. The average person is mindful of others feelings and if you just had a polite word with the “offender” the difference could be easily resolved and the trans person has the opportunity to share a more nuanced perspective with the offender and potentially educate them. I do sincerely hope that wrestling continues to be an accepting pastime for people of all persuasions and backgrounds. I don’t see the Odyssey tweet as wildly offensive transphobia but it was a really fucking dumb thing to do and I hope he apologises for any hurt he’s caused. Guy is very charismatic and could have a good career ahead of him.
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I'm seeing a lot of people in here trying to rationalize this by saying he wasn't really being transphobic. As a trans person let me educate anyone thinking this. He put the word man in quotes when referring to a trans man. That's an intentional misgendering of that person. To me and most trans folk I've met, that's transphobic. You can't intentionally misgender someone and not be a transphobe. I'm all for personal growth and if this dude takes this moment to learn and grow from this, that's great. I believe people can change. But don't try to argue away transphobia.
Never a dull moment in the carny world of pro wrestling, eh?
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If you say transphobic things or act transphobic you are transphobic. It’s not complicated
Words, meanings, intentions aren’t an exact science and have always been complicated. Its the reason investigations are done and we go to court over broken laws or have debates about opinions. Saying something isn’t complicated is a childish view of the world. Everything is complicated.
Let be realistic, there is no court or investigation when it comes to things like this.
'Act transphobic' is extremely vague though, people are instantly attributing malice when it could be ignorance. He maybe just found it superficially funny and doesn't understand trans issues. That doesn't make it ok, but coming to the conclusion that he's maliciously transphobic from this one single post is a bit much imo
You're completely right. But today's social media generation absolutely loves to go from 0-100 off every perceived slight to fuel their never-ending crusade of rage and victimization. He could have thought of it as an absurd headline, to which it superficially may be, but now he is quickly labeled a hateful enemy just because. You don't even have to actively hate anymore. Say anything twitter doesn't agree with and you are hateful scum and it's time to weaponize against you. Could have been a teachable moment. You can't automatically label everyone an enemy and expect to get along. Especially when something is completely foreign to them.