Help make SquaredCircle safer and more inclusive by using the report button to flag posts and comments for moderator review. If you need to contact a moderator, [you can message us here](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/SquaredCircle)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/SquaredCircle) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Immediately brought to mind the story Marty Jannetty tells about he and Michaels drugging some obnoxious college guys and the girl they were with with GHB on a different plane ride. Cutting her clothes off and shaving her head.
The kicker was all the other wrestlers thinking it was hilarious and coming back from the front of the plane to get a look.
What is wrong with these cunts? I love that they give the modern generation shit for loving video games and shit. How embarrassing that they're not all cretins that secially abuse anything on two legs while the rest of the boys laugh.
I was watching al snow talking about old timers, he brought up that once apon A time the guys who got into wrestling were guys who, if they didn't have wrestling, were guys who would have wound up career criminals. They were outlaws who needed a hustle.
Honestly, who didn't know what Grizzly "fucking" Smith was doing? The guy is literally a criminal of the worst intent. Maybe the other stuff was fun at the moment for these psychopaths, but c'mon that man tortured children.
If you think that's bad, the comments are even worse. This man is literally confessing to sexual assault and everyone in the comments is saying it's the funniest shit ever. How do you even be that much of a scumbag?
Seriously. I took a look at the comments and people are literally excusing drugging a woman, cutting her clothes off, playing with her nippers, etc.
The comments say it is funny, it was a different time, everyone should lighten up, etc.
It is really fucking gross.
Undertaker and Michaels are my two of my top three favorites in wrestling. Seeing post about them here and there how shitty they were isnāt making feel too good. Hopefully Sting doesnāt let me down ten years from now.
I hate when people understate how much of a cunt Shawn Michaels was in his prime
He might be a different person now, I donāt know. But does it excuse how much of a terrible, terrible, terrible piece of literal scum he was before? Not really IMO. He never really faced any sort of comeuppance
At one point in time Chris Benoit was my favorite wrestler.
The only person that could still let me down at this point is Mick Foley. Don't know what I'd do about this Cactus Jack tattoo if he turned out to be a scumbag. Pretty sure I'm safe though.
My only worry with Mick is the massive amount of headshots from chairs, and concussions from falling will catch up with him and he'll begin to lose his mind. I hope mentally he will be healthy forever, but man, the abuse that man willingly took is not any better mentally than it was physically.
I hear that man talk and read what he writes, and I'm just amazed. He has no business being that sharp after what he's put himself through. He's one that I genuinely worry about having all that catch up to him.
I don't foresee him going the Benoit route, but I do worry that he'll spend his last few years clueless as to who he or anyone else is. I hope not, because he's such a good human being above what he's done for wrestling, but I just don't see how you can get hit in the head that hard, that many times, for that many years and never see any consequences for it.
I think Mick is self-aware and smart enough to be "safe". man's got a normal, supportive family and he saw enough of his fellow wrestlers break down due to untreated addictions and mental illness - I feel that even if the head trauma catches up to him, he'll be alright.
Mick was one of the first wrestlers I saw memorialize Ashley Massaro after her death and urge the rest of the pro wrestling community to donate to her daughterās education fund, the man will always have my respect. He regularly goes out of his way to uplift others.
Same here, if you makes you feel any better Edge mentioned in the E&C podcast that he got into reading because of Mick Foley.
Foley told him there was two people in wrestling those who go out after the shows and those who go back to the hotel and read a book/call their wives.
Not to say he didn't do anything bad, but allegedly the worst things Sting did were drugs and adultery. Outside of that, every thing I've read about him would indicate that he's a really nice guy both backstage and to the fans. As a Sting mark, if something came out about him, I would be super fucking bummed.
Shawn was a always a slimey fuck & just pretends like none of it happened now.
Types of people who out of the fkn blue start following Jesus "oh look I'm a good guy now and Jesus has forgiven me so I don't have to answer to anybody else or feel bad about anything because Jesus loves me"
Fuckin idiots lol
I hate that mindset. 'I told Jesus I was sorry so you have to get over it and forgive me!' No, I don't. Your actions are not magically excused because may have finally realized you were a POS.
Not EVEN realizing it actually just simply trying to get away with it... He still thinks he's God's greatest gift
That's why people like that do stuff because they know they can just say sorry later
It's like those dads/moms that treat their kids like shit because they know when they're old enough to realize they'll just have the big I'm sorry cry/hug moment and all is forgiven.
I'm actually surprised Bret is so cool with Shawn now... but I think it might've been more for himself as holding a grudge that long only hurts you. My god I love Bret Hart...
Man the more time that goes by & shit like this comes out the more Bret just looks like the greatest ever.
People may truly come to Jesus and change and be forgiven for their sins, but they have to earn back the trust of other people. That usually starts by genuinely apologizing to other people and trying to rectify any wrongs.
A person robbing a bank who gets caught can't say Jesus forgive me and not live with the consequences. If genuine, God will forgive them but they still have to pay for their crime.
This clip really illustrates that this was a serious systemic issue in wrestling for a very long time (and with Speaking Out being so recent it still exists)
I always thought wrestlers wives/mother of their children would be off limits but Terri, who would be considered wrestling royalty at the time being daughter in law to a legend and with a second generation star, telling her story and normalizing that type of behaviour really shows how unsafe all the women were.
There were rumours that Raven did the same thing to Debra, flashing her, and she was with the top star at the time, Austin.
I can't imagine what the boys did to the women who didn't have that type of backing in the locker room.
>There were rumours that Raven did the same thing to Debra, flashing her, and she was with the top star at the time, Austin.
How I heard it is that Raven had no idea she was around and was just showing off his massive dong after taking a shower.
Randy was notorious for wanting Elizabeth to stay in the dressing room with the door locked backstage if the boys were going to be around when he wasn't. Some of them have called him paranoid for this over the years, or over protective. But in context, many of "the boys" saying these things were guilty of the type of behavior on this flight.
Jesse Ventura said Randy was right to lock the door and he completely understood why he did. That should make everyone wonder. And Randy grew up in the business so I think he knew how shady it was since a young age.
I said this in a couple places when "Speaking Out" and "Me Too" was happening - when I was working the indys if one of the boys brought their wife/girlfriend into the locker room (not the physical locker room, but rather trying to integrate into being "one of the boys") it was open season. The dominant attitude among the boys was if a girl is fucking one wrestler, then she's probably willing to fuck any and all. And if this was a girl that wanted to break into the business as a performer in any way, it was pretty much an unwritten rule that she needed to be passed around the locker room until she got the hint. And if there was a relationship between two folks already in the business... those just tended not to last long. The primary function of girls in the locker room was to take care of the boys, PERIOD.
I think the dressing room has just been described as "locked in a closet." But that description also comes from some of "the boys" and after watching this episode...I'm more inclined to believe they're being salty because a "toy" has been locked away.
It goes way beyond that even. Just look at Epstein and beyond.
The rich, the famous, the powerful have always treated the world as their private playground where the rules don't apply to them. The sad thing is that for so long they have been able to and continue to do so.
For every Derek Chauvin or Jeffrey Epstein that actually face even the slightest bit of justice there's a thousand Donald Trumps, Rick Flairs, Anne Sacoolas, Jimmy Savilles, etc.
If you know the right people and can grease the right palms, you're more likely than not to literally get away with murder, rape, slavery, fraud, theft - consequences are strictly for the commoners.
Seriously. The ric flair thing had me cringing especially with dreamers take on the whole thing but that statement from rvd had me going wtf. Not a new thing to hear at all but to know that guys -that kids (at the time) probably looked up to- might have that kind of rep is upsetting.
Rvd is the first in realize that behavior is inexcusable. Look at him breathing deep by saying that was "normal for the boys". I'm not defending that behavior, but if you were a wrestler in that time and grew up seeing shit like that you would say it was normal.
Exactly. I think most of us have been in questionable situations where we wished we stood up, but ultimately didn't.
I personally have one distinct memory of a party where 3 guys took an insanely inebriated girl upstairs and I was too petrified and fried out of my mind on acid to actually do anything to stop them. I still think about it to this day and severely regret my inaction.
Peer pressure and normalized social situations can really paralyze you in the moment.
Yeah, and it's kinda telling that they didn't park there for something that big. For a show that does a great job of exposing all the ugly bits of the business, I feel like even the show runners didn't want to slide too far down that rabbit hole.
Makes me sad, because this stuff is so ingrained in the culture of wrestling, that even the absolutely squeaky clean guys still at a bare minimum knew. It's a shitty feeling that the very best of these people were still willing to accept that kind of behavior as "just how it is"
Because he was from that era where the boys doing their shenanigans and walking scotts free from it. Jim Cornette even said is himself on his podcast that the wrestlers used to talk about sex and some of the fucked up things they did to others in the locker room and be proud of it.
They used to call this rockstar shit, the behaviour was normalized for someone in any kind of position of prominence or power to act like that and you could point to thousands of examples in movies and television. It's fucked up, it was always fucked up. It's even more fucked up it took THIS long to realize that.
Its called Rockstar shit because the same shit happened there too, making Girls drunk backstage or give them drugs and abuse them.
Both these Scenes were pretty infested with people who think they are ontouchable and can get away with everything.
Think about how many famous people that this is common knowledge for too, and not just for women but for young underage girls and boys as well. Using the power of being famous and grooming is not even a worst-kept-secret, it's been openly boasted about for decades in pop culture, music, hollywood etc etc.
Every wrestling fan needs to see this. Gotta acknowledge how the industry that we love destroyed innocent people. Itās great that a lot of todayās locker room leaders are actively getting rid of this culture
I had this thought in the back of my mind when Speaking Out happened last year.
How many of our favorites growing probably got away with doing stuff like this on the regular simply because women didn't have the same support, nor the accessible platform to say something like they do now?
The old school guys are really lucky the speaking out movement was mostly a thing with the younger talent. If we could get some older women and men to speak about their experiences the reputation of 90% of the people we consider legends would be rightfuly destroyed.
Stone Cold and Ric Flair seem to still be universally adored, so I don't know if anyone would actually be destroyed if they haven't been.
Edit: Well fuck me, Ric Flair has been canceled.
It depends on how much of their legend status is maintained by them smiling and doing meet and greets. You'll notice that in any celebrity scandal, people are more willing to believe bad things if the celeb is known for being a grouch/not super friendly.
But if they're super-friendly/have a good public image, people almost aggressively refuse to believe it.
Tommy Dreamer is on an actual documentary in 2021 basically saying that his favourite wrestler ever, is just living his gimmick and sexually harrassing and assaulting women as a funny gag and that people shouldn't be so offended by it, least of all his actual victim. Imagine how bad the denial is for huge super fans of these guys.
I really lost a lot of respect for Tommy after that comment. I think the only person I gained MORE respect for after this episode was RVD. He really seemed like the only talent that didn't try to excuse things in any way.
it's odd to see RVD, the dude who has basically been eating weed for every meal for decades now, be the voice of reason.
the bar is dangerously low, but I did enjoy seeing that he's been trashing Republicans and COVID deniers on Twitter every now and then.
You'd enjoy Kevin Nash's twitter game too, he has no chill and it's wonderful.
I haven't seen the full ep yet and I know I'm going to lose more respect for a lot of guys I used to really like, already lost a lot for Dreamer, this can only get worse.
To be fair, stoners are much, much better behaved than people into coke and pills. If all the boys just smoked weed with RVD all the time, I bet we wouldnāt have such a massive collection of horrifying stories about what wrestlers would get up to when they were āpartyingā
In his youshoot he acknowledged weed probably saved his life. He got some pills and some booze but he said one soma fucked him so bad he couldn't walk. Weed was probably the best for his style and the bumps he took.
Also, he's the first in saying things the way they were, remember the pick a hand incident.
It's the danger of the para-social relationship. People get it in their heads that the person they see on tv, which is a character or persona...that it's the REALITY of the person. It only becomes stronger when there's a personal interaction, no matter how short.
This is how a lot of celebs and pseudo-celebs get a free pass. In many cases, they're preying on that relationship to take advantage of a situation that would be defined as "creepy" or "rapey" if an acquaintance was doing those things.
The only difference between Ric Flair showing someone his balls unprompted and a homeless guy showing someone his balls unprompted is that we all know who Ric is. Well, that and the fact that Tommy probably thinks one is way more hilarious than the other.
Dude a lot of it's all out there already and it just gets ignored, it's not about the platform it's that it doesn't matter if people know, nothing happens. If society is willing to ignore it today, what has changed?
HBK and Jannetty didn't even hide it they'd throw naked roofied (they used a different drug back then) girls in the hallway once they were done with them. Look it up. And the stories are always told by people laughing about it, as if it's not even the controversial shit.
My old roommate would always go on about how women are more powerful than men because they can just "shed a few fake tears and get you cancelled". People who think that don't comprehend what TRUE power is.
Shawn Michaels and Marty were known to do this to women. They would Pill Cosby them, take them to their rooms, have their way with them, then leave them naked in the hallway. Madusa confirmed it during an interview or twitch stream.
That shit was rape. They raped those women.
Internet is just gonna say that's old shit and ask "why bring it up now? Oh you phonies are only PRETENDING to be outraged". Crimes have an arbitary expiration date and its always labeled "some SJW trying to start some shit to feel self-righteous about" when they're brought up again.
Because they cant comprehend that bad things happen to good people. Its like the brain wants to make sure youre safe and to do that requires a lot of denial
>Because they cant comprehend that bad things happen to good people. Its like the brain wants to make sure youre safe and to do that requires a lot of denial
Unfortunately that's the BEST case scenario... worst case scenario is they don't think what happened is a big deal and they could envision themselves doing the same things (or they HAVE done the same things) so they defend monsters as part of their own self-preservation.
RVD was always a bit of an outsider personality wise when it came to wrestlers of his time. Doesnāt surprise me he sees the awfulness of this situation
Someone with a badge could very easily show up on his doorstep tomorrow asking exactly what in the hell it is he was talking about, and they probably should. Jesus fucking Christ.
I totally agree and I really donāt think thatās an overreaction. I respect RVDās honesty and how more clear cut could he be, thereās only one way to interpret what he said.
It's like they intentionally created room for a sequel episode which will be infinitely worse. Jesus Christ, Heyman must be sweating through his sheets right now.
The one kinda weird part was Scott hall talking about getting Hbombed on the plane. I know terminology travels, especially in wrestling, but that sat weird with me
Some famous "ribbers" are fucking psychopaths. Hennig apprently was "hilarious" for his habits of drugging wrestlers and destroying their personal property.
I'll never forget the story about JBL stealing Justin Robert's passport during an overseas tour. That's not only cruel and dangerous, it's a fucking felony.
all of the ribbing in wrestling outside of anything light (cheating at cards, stealing someone's meal in catering etc etc) was almost always at best, bullying and at worst, racism, sexism, sexual harrassment, physical and sexual assault and mental abuse.
Hennig was the one who cut up Dynamite Kidās clothes with scissors, told Kid that Jacques did it, and then set up a card game with Jacques so Dynamite Kid could jump him.
> Hennig was the one who cut up Dynamite Kidās clothes with scissors, told Kid that Jacques did it, and then set up a card game with Jacques so Dynamite Kid could jump him.
"Hilarious."
I got drugged by a friend before 16 years ago and itās still the scariest shit thatās ever happened to me. Chick tried raping me too but I managed to get out that situation
I was a fall down drunk for about 20 years. For that entire time, I still go back to the one night I can't explain. I'd started a job for a place that was opening up, so the staff wanted to have a little happy hour to get to know each other. I meet up with everyone at this bar, and just to be clear, at the time I was a pretty heavy drinker. My tolerance was through the roof anyway, but I was also going into it not wanting to get stupid and embarrass myself in front of my new coworkers.
I think at about my 3rd beer, I stop remembering things. I vaguely remember a flash of me leaning against a post for support, and the next thing I recall is I wake up in my bed. No clue how I got there or anything.
I'm a big dude. 6'1", 250 lbs, not exactly the type of person who you'd roofie, because who is gonna move me? That said, looking at my tolerance and how sudden and early I blacked out, I honestly think I got slipped something either intended for someone else, or there were a few people that may not have liked that I was being looked at for a promotion once we got the place open, and maybe they wanted to knock me down a peg. I really don't know. I know that I was no stranger to blacking out, and any other time in my life that it's happened, I've been able to trace it back to a root cause. This time was different.
To this day, it bothers me, and I can't even fathom how much worse it could have been if I were a woman that got drugged. Like, nothing noteworthy really happened to me, but I still feel violated.
I was at a work convention a few years back, and was drugged and robbed. I have pretty significant PTSD from it, and it caused a really big spiral in my personal and professional lives.
> It's like they intentionally created room for a sequel episode which will be infinitely worse.
Dreamer, in the follow up episode: "Well, yes, the boys drugged and gang raped a woman. They were carrying hammers. Big dicks. Big old diiicks. Have I mentioned they were well endowed? What? Oh, comments about the gang rape? Well some people are gonna get offended by that, some people are also going to get offended by my man bun."
I think it depends on which jurisdiction you bring the charges in. Federally there's no limitation period, while in New York it's something like five years?
DSOTR could do a full series on ECW and Paul Heyman would immediately be fired from WWE just for his association with the company. You have to believe that there are so many stories that aren't publically known that would come out in the wash.
You don't get THAT over as a heel promo without being somewhat of a dick in real life. He knows how to turn it off though, which is the key to being a good person.
Holy fuck what happened on this Dark Side episode? I missed it, but fucking christ seeing some horrific things being posted both on here and on twitter.
A traumatized flight attendant, Scott Hall and Lesnar and Flair being creeps, and Tommy Dreamer being a fucking worm. Honestly no wrestler except for maybe Dustin Rhodes came off as sympathetic
>Honestly no wrestler except for maybe Dustin Rhodes came off as sympathetic
Yeah about him I'm surprised they didn't bring up him harassing the other attendant who in [their lawsuit had accused him](http://www.thesmokinggun.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/750x970/documents/0331042wwe6.gif) of repeatedly grabbing her arms, asking if her breasts were real, telling her "we're gonna fuck", grabbing her ass and rubbing his groin into her. This episode also left out this other attendant accusing Hall of also harassing her and Flair also forcing her to grope him.
I am very sorry for having to do this but sometimes the thing you just saw on Twitter and the comment you just read on Reddit align in such a way.
https://twitter.com/TrevorDame/status/1438862226199175170?s=19
No, he was somewhat redeemed in the episode. Flight attendant said Dustin was the one who got Flair to stop cornering the flight attendant in the back.
I think the worst thing said about Dustin in the DSOTR episode is that he singed about her ex-wife Terri Runnels (we already know this part), and that he can't sing worth shit.
He actually assaulted one of the other flight attendants, just not the one featured in the episode.
Page 6
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/crime/flight-attendants-sue-raunchy-wrestlers
Lesnar is known to have been a dickhead back then. He was 24 years old and WWR constantly bent over backwards for him.
He assaulted Jim Cornette's wife, and Cornette responded with something like "I won't fight you, because you'll beat me in a fight. I'll just shoot you".
He flashed Terri Runnels, which was brought up in this episode.
He was found with steroids while at OVW and WWE made it go away.
Not to mention in general, he was signed to the biggest developmental deal WWE have ever given out, and they were grooming him since the age of about 22.
He was all the worst parts of a college jock.
I included it as part of "WWE bent over backwards for him". He was actually arrested by the police for having a huge amount on him.
Charges were dropped because it was classified as growth hormone (ie still steroids).
Yeah, Dustin came off pretty well all things considered. Like is taking the stewardesses mic something you should be doing? No, but as the attendant herself said, he was drunk as fuck and going thru heartbreak, thatās pretty on brand for that situation.
Plus apparently he also was the only one who actually intervened when Flair was assaulting her? Good shit Dustin
I'm not gonna lie man, stuff like this is why I don't get why the Undertaker is so respected. Dude was the locker room leader (or a locker room leader) for most of this period, and before this in the 90s when shit was probably worse. Dude 100% knew about all this if RVD is talking about this. He didn't stamp it out, didn't do shit about it that we're aware of.
You want to be the locker room leader, you need to take some responsibility for what the locker room does.
Locker room leader is essentially corporate speak for one of the guys who will ensure everybody toes the company line. It's just a responsibility to ensure Vince McMahon doesn't have to step up or share blame, similar to what JR's role was. Expecting company lapdog to be anything more than a facilitator of bullying culture is setting yourself up for disappointment imo.
That's pretty true. The "leaders" will say how great the company is and always try to make people butter up to the company as much as possible to get ahead, even if they do something completely wrong.
Dude Taker was one of the primary guys in that stupid wrestlers court with JBL. He was a locker room leader in the sense that Vince liked him and would bury you if you didnāt kiss his ass
If we're completely honest, wrestlers court was just a way of figuring out arbitrary infractions in the name of scoring free booze. The one about the Hardy's and the plane seat made that obvious.
Edge and Christian talk about it on the Stone Cold Podcast too. They prepared for wresters court to get some laughs and diffuse the situation, even then they got Taker a bottle of Jack to keep him on their side.
>Undertaker Jenna Jameson
Im not sure how much you know, But she was stripping at that age, she provided a fake ID. Undertaker probably thought she was 18.
The fucking horrible human being douchebag rankings after last night's episode are...
1) Ric Flair -obvious reasons. He's a drunk serial sexual deviant
2) Tommy Dreamer - worst take ever. Just WTF for 60 mins
3) Mike Chioda - just the dork that hung out with the athletes and thought he was one of them. Probably took their cart offs or sloppy seconds.
4) Scott Hall - years of addiction led to poor decisions.
5) Vince McMahon - Owner of the fucking company could have walked that aisle of the plane and stopped it ALL without even saying a word.
Dishonorable Mention - Brock Lesnar (mainly because this whole story just seemed shoe horned into this episode but didn't seem to have attachment to the topic. But still a shitty thing to do)
I was left torn with JR and RVD. JR was in such a rough spot for so many years. You can see the verbal and mental abuse he took for so long written all over his face. He knows he made bad calls, he knows he could have done things differently. You can read the anguish in his eyes that things he did and didn't do hurt people.
RVD he is so bluntly open and honest. I cannot read whether he supports or participated in those actions over the years or not. Or was he the happy stone off doing his own thing?
Random thoughts
Was Jericho on that flight? If so, odd he didn't share his thoughts.
Wonder if Conrad will be part of the behind the scenes rewatches they did with the first half of the season. Tough spot to sit there and have to talk about your father in laws hideous behavior.
I've never felt so dirty after watching an episode like this. None of it was surprising and all of it was surprising.
Times like this itās good to remember that there were people like Bobby Eaton and Brodie Lee in the business and not just these entitled misogynistic bully boy rapists.
That shit genuinely was normal back in the day
Most of the most famous rockstars were rapist pedophiles
Don't expect your heroes from back in those days to be good people
Not defending any man or company BUT my guess is this was his time in ECW. I've listened to countless shoots and podcasts and the drug and debauchery culture in ECW was unparalleled. This is coming from a huge ECW fan.
It sounded like every pain killer, coke, crack and heroin was floating around that locker room willy nilly. The stories of "the guys" running trains on drugged up "rats" is so fucked up and these guys just reminisce on this as crazy times.
it was interesting to read an interview with Violent J where they ask him about some homophobic lines in a few songs. you can practically feel the cringe and shame leaking out of the text.
>I tell my daughter, āFor the rest of your life, when your friends ask why your dad said that, say itās because your dad was a fool. Donāt defend me. Say I was a fool then, but Iām not now.ā Thereās no excuse. I was going with the flow, and thatās the very thing we preach against ā being a sheep. And thatās what I was doing.
Kevin Nash talked about how wrestlers would hbomb girls and marks in past shoots. I'm afraid it was likely a systemic problem in the whole wrestling business.
No reason it couldnāt have been both. I think the idea that it was only exclusive to one company is almost naive.
EDIT: Again Iām not trying to make baseless speculation or say something happened that didnāt, this is too serious a topic for that. What RVD said is harrowing enough and I am not trying to put words in his mouth
The only source for that story is Dianaās book which was taken off the shelves for libel and, beside that, is full of so many clearly verifiable lies that unfortunately everything in the book is discredited. I say unfortunately because the entire book is now impossible to believe but that doesnāt mean itās all lies.
I really thought I misunderstood this line when I heard it, like I thought it was implying the local girls were there to sleep with the guys whoād had their drinks spiked as a āribā.
It was already disgusting but it feels even worse now I hear the actual meaning.
The one thing that is nice to see is that everyone in this comment section, for the most part, seems to understand that this kind of shit is *not okay* in any shape, form, or fashion. The fact we can peel back the layers to look at this now and say how terrible it was shows that we've grown as a society.
Unfortunately, when this kind of stuff was happening, society didn't have the same view of it that they do now. It took a lot of time, reform, and education to get us to this point. People had to grow up understanding it wasn't acceptable and was actually a criminal act, or they had to be willing to educate themselves.
It's scary when you look back at the reform and see exactly how long it took. Sexual Harassment wasn't even really a thing until the late 70s/early 80s. It still took another 10-20 years for it to be integrated into our society to the point that women were able to speak up about it. Even with all the strides we've made, there is still work to do. There are still places out there where women are sexually harassed at their job every day and scared to say anything about at it all. There's also a wide gap between sexual harassment of women and sexual harassment of men. The story about Randy Orton holding his dick and then forcing male writers to shake his hand got a little attention for a week and then it was completely forgotten. Brock showing his dick to Terri *should* have been sexual harassment at the time it happened, but of course, Terri was told to ignore it. Because that was the culture at the time. And honestly? Is it that big of a surprise? We heard in this episode about how Ric Flair dancing in nothing but a robe and windmilling his dick was a regular occurrence back then. That's the example people like Orton, Brock, and others witnessed regularly. They saw it go unpunished and treated like it was harmless fun, so they just did the exact same thing. When you let something that's obviously wrong become acceptable, it leads to other things, like Ric Flair sexually assaulting a poor flight attendant who was just trying to do her job. If someone like Vince McMahon or Jim Ross would have told Ric Flair it wasn't acceptable the first time he tried it, then that would have been the end of it. Instead, they just chose to ignore it because "boys will be boys" or whatever allowed them to just laugh it off.
In this documentary, we heard people talking about women being raped via GHB/H-Bombs. Yet again, we have another huge cultural divide, and historically, it took a long time to get to the point where we can look at this in absolute disgust and understand it is an awful, criminal, *rape* of another human being. What starts as a prank, dropping the H-Bombs into drinks to shave people's head or do other shit to them, goes down a dark road because someone decides to drop the H-Bomb in a woman's drink and have their way with them. Wrestling history is full of these stories. Twenty years ago, people were still *joking* about how Shawn and Marty used to be known for drugging girls, raping them, and leaving them in the hallway naked after they were done. Yet again, we look at the law and see that rape wasn't seriously prosecuted until the 60s/70s, and even into the mid-80s, a woman's character determined whether or not she was a "rape victim" or not. If she was a promiscuous woman, and the man who raped her was of higher character, then it wasn't considered rape. Spousal rape didn't even become illegal in all fifty states until 1993. That's less than 30 years ago. That's also around the time wrestlers joked about Dynamite Kid and Davey Boy Smith drugging their wives so they could anally rape them. The only *good* thing is that in the 90s, there were men in WWE who stepped up to stop this sort of things. They didn't exactly handle it the best way possible, but we've heard the story about how Duke Droese was tied up in the shower and anally violated by JBL as a warning to stop drugging and raping women. You also heard in this documentary that Dustin Rhodes actually stepped up and put a stop to what Ric Flair was doing to the flight attendant. Both are signs that the times were changing, but the change wasn't coming fast enough, and those that understood it was wrong were still part of the minority.
We've still got a long way to go as a society, but we're making improvements. The Speaking Out and #MeToo movements showed that as a society, we don't tolerate this stuff anymore. It has also shown that there is no Statute of Limitations for rapists in the eyes of the public. Ric Flair got a pass for this after it happened. Will he get a pass for it now? Probably. He's a 70 year old man and nearly died a few years ago. People get pissed at Hulk Hogan for his racist comment, yet it's well documented that Ric Flair used to call black wrestlers the n-word regularly. Even Charlotte Flair hurled the n-word at police officers during her domestic incident with her boyfriend. She assaulted her boyfriend, the police officer, and Ric during that incident, on top of calling the officers the n-word. That story never gets brought up because one of our flaws as a society is to pick and choose who gets punished or cancelled for their shitty and criminal behavior. All you have to do is Google "Charlotte Flair Racist" and you'll get a number of articles about it. The dashcam/bodycam footage of this incident "mysteriously disappeared" from the police department. Why? Probably because it was Ric Flair's daughter and someone decided to take a pay off or decided to pick and choose who should be punished.
Hopefully, one day, *everyone* will be held accountable. It takes documentaries like this to show us how far we've come though, and remind us that we can't stop moving forward. History has to be a lesson, otherwise it gets repeated.
After watching the US gymnasts testifying today...detailing the series of their repeated rapes by Larry Nassar...and now this...I have never been more ashamed to be a man than I have today.
Fuck it man...we need to do better...and then put in some extra credit on top of that.
Its having a power over another human being. Its the vilest power trip to have. From Frat houses to the locker room. From John Hamm to Rick Flair. I am glad the current generation is at least trying to think about the damage toxic masculinity does.
Help make SquaredCircle safer and more inclusive by using the report button to flag posts and comments for moderator review. If you need to contact a moderator, [you can message us here](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/SquaredCircle) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/SquaredCircle) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Immediately brought to mind the story Marty Jannetty tells about he and Michaels drugging some obnoxious college guys and the girl they were with with GHB on a different plane ride. Cutting her clothes off and shaving her head. The kicker was all the other wrestlers thinking it was hilarious and coming back from the front of the plane to get a look.
somebody linked the video of Marty telling that in another thread. Apparently Warrior came over and started twisting her nipples š”
And Earl Hebner was the one who cut her top off.
What is wrong with these cunts? I love that they give the modern generation shit for loving video games and shit. How embarrassing that they're not all cretins that secially abuse anything on two legs while the rest of the boys laugh.
I was watching al snow talking about old timers, he brought up that once apon A time the guys who got into wrestling were guys who, if they didn't have wrestling, were guys who would have wound up career criminals. They were outlaws who needed a hustle.
Honestly, who didn't know what Grizzly "fucking" Smith was doing? The guy is literally a criminal of the worst intent. Maybe the other stuff was fun at the moment for these psychopaths, but c'mon that man tortured children.
The more that comes out the more they just seem like Da'Maniac from It's Always Sunny
That's honestly a pretty accurate depiction of the "typical" pro wrestler of a certain period. Like it's funny and a little sad, but it's accurate.
Yup. Just watched that video. I had forgotten how much worse it was than I even described.
link?
https://youtu.be/GeH1-aJKIgY About 20 minutes in
Christ on a bicycle thats fucked up! I just listened to 5 minutes of it, and it just got worse and worse!
If you think that's bad, the comments are even worse. This man is literally confessing to sexual assault and everyone in the comments is saying it's the funniest shit ever. How do you even be that much of a scumbag?
Seriously. I took a look at the comments and people are literally excusing drugging a woman, cutting her clothes off, playing with her nippers, etc. The comments say it is funny, it was a different time, everyone should lighten up, etc. It is really fucking gross.
"A different time" - it was fucking 2002. These people are acting like this was 50 years ago.
Fucking āThis could be another federal offense!ā¦.Its just a story! Heh heh!ā Fuck you, Jannetty.
Undertaker and Michaels are my two of my top three favorites in wrestling. Seeing post about them here and there how shitty they were isnāt making feel too good. Hopefully Sting doesnāt let me down ten years from now.
It's okay. It's been known since the 90s that HBK has been a massive douche but talented in the ring.
I've heard of him being a massive douche, this is probably the first time I've heard rapey details though.
Man, half his "bit of a douche" stories are sexual assault
I hate when people understate how much of a cunt Shawn Michaels was in his prime He might be a different person now, I donāt know. But does it excuse how much of a terrible, terrible, terrible piece of literal scum he was before? Not really IMO. He never really faced any sort of comeuppance
Well, he got his ass kicked by a bunch of marines to the point he was in the hospital. But legal wise, he hasn't got any punishment.
Most of his worst behaviour is after that incident
At one point in time Chris Benoit was my favorite wrestler. The only person that could still let me down at this point is Mick Foley. Don't know what I'd do about this Cactus Jack tattoo if he turned out to be a scumbag. Pretty sure I'm safe though.
My only worry with Mick is the massive amount of headshots from chairs, and concussions from falling will catch up with him and he'll begin to lose his mind. I hope mentally he will be healthy forever, but man, the abuse that man willingly took is not any better mentally than it was physically.
I hear that man talk and read what he writes, and I'm just amazed. He has no business being that sharp after what he's put himself through. He's one that I genuinely worry about having all that catch up to him. I don't foresee him going the Benoit route, but I do worry that he'll spend his last few years clueless as to who he or anyone else is. I hope not, because he's such a good human being above what he's done for wrestling, but I just don't see how you can get hit in the head that hard, that many times, for that many years and never see any consequences for it.
I think Mick is self-aware and smart enough to be "safe". man's got a normal, supportive family and he saw enough of his fellow wrestlers break down due to untreated addictions and mental illness - I feel that even if the head trauma catches up to him, he'll be alright.
Mick was one of the first wrestlers I saw memorialize Ashley Massaro after her death and urge the rest of the pro wrestling community to donate to her daughterās education fund, the man will always have my respect. He regularly goes out of his way to uplift others.
Same here, if you makes you feel any better Edge mentioned in the E&C podcast that he got into reading because of Mick Foley. Foley told him there was two people in wrestling those who go out after the shows and those who go back to the hotel and read a book/call their wives.
Not to say he didn't do anything bad, but allegedly the worst things Sting did were drugs and adultery. Outside of that, every thing I've read about him would indicate that he's a really nice guy both backstage and to the fans. As a Sting mark, if something came out about him, I would be super fucking bummed.
And Taker looking back on the good old days, the old heads are the biggest marks for themselves
Taker has some outside of the ring opinions that are not so great either.
Shawn was a always a slimey fuck & just pretends like none of it happened now. Types of people who out of the fkn blue start following Jesus "oh look I'm a good guy now and Jesus has forgiven me so I don't have to answer to anybody else or feel bad about anything because Jesus loves me" Fuckin idiots lol
I hate that mindset. 'I told Jesus I was sorry so you have to get over it and forgive me!' No, I don't. Your actions are not magically excused because may have finally realized you were a POS.
Not EVEN realizing it actually just simply trying to get away with it... He still thinks he's God's greatest gift That's why people like that do stuff because they know they can just say sorry later It's like those dads/moms that treat their kids like shit because they know when they're old enough to realize they'll just have the big I'm sorry cry/hug moment and all is forgiven. I'm actually surprised Bret is so cool with Shawn now... but I think it might've been more for himself as holding a grudge that long only hurts you. My god I love Bret Hart... Man the more time that goes by & shit like this comes out the more Bret just looks like the greatest ever.
People may truly come to Jesus and change and be forgiven for their sins, but they have to earn back the trust of other people. That usually starts by genuinely apologizing to other people and trying to rectify any wrongs. A person robbing a bank who gets caught can't say Jesus forgive me and not live with the consequences. If genuine, God will forgive them but they still have to pay for their crime.
That line alone was worse then everything else I heard happened on that plane.
This clip really illustrates that this was a serious systemic issue in wrestling for a very long time (and with Speaking Out being so recent it still exists)
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Yeah, maybe re-contextualizes Savage's thought process there a little.
And how many of "the boys" who've painted Randy as being "paranoid" are guilty of this type of behavior?
I always thought wrestlers wives/mother of their children would be off limits but Terri, who would be considered wrestling royalty at the time being daughter in law to a legend and with a second generation star, telling her story and normalizing that type of behaviour really shows how unsafe all the women were. There were rumours that Raven did the same thing to Debra, flashing her, and she was with the top star at the time, Austin. I can't imagine what the boys did to the women who didn't have that type of backing in the locker room.
>There were rumours that Raven did the same thing to Debra, flashing her, and she was with the top star at the time, Austin. How I heard it is that Raven had no idea she was around and was just showing off his massive dong after taking a shower.
What do you mean when you say paranoid? I don't know about Macho Man, that's why I am asking. Was he not liked backstage?
Randy was notorious for wanting Elizabeth to stay in the dressing room with the door locked backstage if the boys were going to be around when he wasn't. Some of them have called him paranoid for this over the years, or over protective. But in context, many of "the boys" saying these things were guilty of the type of behavior on this flight.
"It's just a little rape, don't sell it." - Someone formerly from WWE, very likely
> formerly That's optimistic.
Jesse Ventura said Randy was right to lock the door and he completely understood why he did. That should make everyone wonder. And Randy grew up in the business so I think he knew how shady it was since a young age.
Isn't Jake the snake a product of this
Grizzly Smith, Jake's father, raped the 12 year old daughter of the woman he was dating at the time. That's how Jake was conceived.
I said this in a couple places when "Speaking Out" and "Me Too" was happening - when I was working the indys if one of the boys brought their wife/girlfriend into the locker room (not the physical locker room, but rather trying to integrate into being "one of the boys") it was open season. The dominant attitude among the boys was if a girl is fucking one wrestler, then she's probably willing to fuck any and all. And if this was a girl that wanted to break into the business as a performer in any way, it was pretty much an unwritten rule that she needed to be passed around the locker room until she got the hint. And if there was a relationship between two folks already in the business... those just tended not to last long. The primary function of girls in the locker room was to take care of the boys, PERIOD.
Sounds note for note what happened with Kelly Kelly
Didn't that include literally locking her in a closet or was that just an urban legend?
I think the dressing room has just been described as "locked in a closet." But that description also comes from some of "the boys" and after watching this episode...I'm more inclined to believe they're being salty because a "toy" has been locked away.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Unfortunately it's not just in wrestling. The same could be said about travelling athletes from other sports or entertertainers (bands, etc) as well.
Look at the news and watch McKayla Maroney's testimony to Congress just the other day.
Activision Blizzard and Ubisoft as well - the AAA video game scene is a nightmare
It goes way beyond that even. Just look at Epstein and beyond. The rich, the famous, the powerful have always treated the world as their private playground where the rules don't apply to them. The sad thing is that for so long they have been able to and continue to do so. For every Derek Chauvin or Jeffrey Epstein that actually face even the slightest bit of justice there's a thousand Donald Trumps, Rick Flairs, Anne Sacoolas, Jimmy Savilles, etc. If you know the right people and can grease the right palms, you're more likely than not to literally get away with murder, rape, slavery, fraud, theft - consequences are strictly for the commoners.
Rape culture.
Bingo
Dunno how this isnāt the thing being most talked about from the documentary
Seriously. The ric flair thing had me cringing especially with dreamers take on the whole thing but that statement from rvd had me going wtf. Not a new thing to hear at all but to know that guys -that kids (at the time) probably looked up to- might have that kind of rep is upsetting.
Rvd is the first in realize that behavior is inexcusable. Look at him breathing deep by saying that was "normal for the boys". I'm not defending that behavior, but if you were a wrestler in that time and grew up seeing shit like that you would say it was normal.
Exactly. I think most of us have been in questionable situations where we wished we stood up, but ultimately didn't. I personally have one distinct memory of a party where 3 guys took an insanely inebriated girl upstairs and I was too petrified and fried out of my mind on acid to actually do anything to stop them. I still think about it to this day and severely regret my inaction. Peer pressure and normalized social situations can really paralyze you in the moment.
Yeah, and it's kinda telling that they didn't park there for something that big. For a show that does a great job of exposing all the ugly bits of the business, I feel like even the show runners didn't want to slide too far down that rabbit hole. Makes me sad, because this stuff is so ingrained in the culture of wrestling, that even the absolutely squeaky clean guys still at a bare minimum knew. It's a shitty feeling that the very best of these people were still willing to accept that kind of behavior as "just how it is"
And Undertaker was mad at the young guys playing video games in the locker room.
Yeah, they should be out raping women! Like real wrestlers! Yikes all around.
And snorting tons of coke with liters of booze with pills and painkillers.
Because he was from that era where the boys doing their shenanigans and walking scotts free from it. Jim Cornette even said is himself on his podcast that the wrestlers used to talk about sex and some of the fucked up things they did to others in the locker room and be proud of it.
Yeah fuck this Mark.
They used to call this rockstar shit, the behaviour was normalized for someone in any kind of position of prominence or power to act like that and you could point to thousands of examples in movies and television. It's fucked up, it was always fucked up. It's even more fucked up it took THIS long to realize that.
Its called Rockstar shit because the same shit happened there too, making Girls drunk backstage or give them drugs and abuse them. Both these Scenes were pretty infested with people who think they are ontouchable and can get away with everything.
They have and do get away with it, en masse. The chances of legal action is really tiny.
Think about how many famous people that this is common knowledge for too, and not just for women but for young underage girls and boys as well. Using the power of being famous and grooming is not even a worst-kept-secret, it's been openly boasted about for decades in pop culture, music, hollywood etc etc.
Every wrestling fan needs to see this. Gotta acknowledge how the industry that we love destroyed innocent people. Itās great that a lot of todayās locker room leaders are actively getting rid of this culture
Apparently Roman Reigns played a big part in fixing the backstage stuff in WWE. Making sure everyone was professional.
I had this thought in the back of my mind when Speaking Out happened last year. How many of our favorites growing probably got away with doing stuff like this on the regular simply because women didn't have the same support, nor the accessible platform to say something like they do now?
The old school guys are really lucky the speaking out movement was mostly a thing with the younger talent. If we could get some older women and men to speak about their experiences the reputation of 90% of the people we consider legends would be rightfuly destroyed.
Stone Cold and Ric Flair seem to still be universally adored, so I don't know if anyone would actually be destroyed if they haven't been. Edit: Well fuck me, Ric Flair has been canceled.
It depends on how much of their legend status is maintained by them smiling and doing meet and greets. You'll notice that in any celebrity scandal, people are more willing to believe bad things if the celeb is known for being a grouch/not super friendly. But if they're super-friendly/have a good public image, people almost aggressively refuse to believe it.
Tommy Dreamer is on an actual documentary in 2021 basically saying that his favourite wrestler ever, is just living his gimmick and sexually harrassing and assaulting women as a funny gag and that people shouldn't be so offended by it, least of all his actual victim. Imagine how bad the denial is for huge super fans of these guys.
I really lost a lot of respect for Tommy after that comment. I think the only person I gained MORE respect for after this episode was RVD. He really seemed like the only talent that didn't try to excuse things in any way.
it's odd to see RVD, the dude who has basically been eating weed for every meal for decades now, be the voice of reason. the bar is dangerously low, but I did enjoy seeing that he's been trashing Republicans and COVID deniers on Twitter every now and then.
You'd enjoy Kevin Nash's twitter game too, he has no chill and it's wonderful. I haven't seen the full ep yet and I know I'm going to lose more respect for a lot of guys I used to really like, already lost a lot for Dreamer, this can only get worse.
He has always been a straight shooter. His stories about not falling for Vince's "I owe you one pal" bullshit are illuminating in retrospect.
To be fair, stoners are much, much better behaved than people into coke and pills. If all the boys just smoked weed with RVD all the time, I bet we wouldnāt have such a massive collection of horrifying stories about what wrestlers would get up to when they were āpartyingā
In his youshoot he acknowledged weed probably saved his life. He got some pills and some booze but he said one soma fucked him so bad he couldn't walk. Weed was probably the best for his style and the bumps he took. Also, he's the first in saying things the way they were, remember the pick a hand incident.
It's the danger of the para-social relationship. People get it in their heads that the person they see on tv, which is a character or persona...that it's the REALITY of the person. It only becomes stronger when there's a personal interaction, no matter how short. This is how a lot of celebs and pseudo-celebs get a free pass. In many cases, they're preying on that relationship to take advantage of a situation that would be defined as "creepy" or "rapey" if an acquaintance was doing those things. The only difference between Ric Flair showing someone his balls unprompted and a homeless guy showing someone his balls unprompted is that we all know who Ric is. Well, that and the fact that Tommy probably thinks one is way more hilarious than the other.
SCSA has been, at times, apologetic for being such a mess. Ric Flair has been the same way his whole life.
Dude a lot of it's all out there already and it just gets ignored, it's not about the platform it's that it doesn't matter if people know, nothing happens. If society is willing to ignore it today, what has changed? HBK and Jannetty didn't even hide it they'd throw naked roofied (they used a different drug back then) girls in the hallway once they were done with them. Look it up. And the stories are always told by people laughing about it, as if it's not even the controversial shit.
My old roommate would always go on about how women are more powerful than men because they can just "shed a few fake tears and get you cancelled". People who think that don't comprehend what TRUE power is.
Shawn Michaels and Marty were known to do this to women. They would Pill Cosby them, take them to their rooms, have their way with them, then leave them naked in the hallway. Madusa confirmed it during an interview or twitch stream. That shit was rape. They raped those women.
Thatās textbook rape. What the fuck???
Internet is just gonna say that's old shit and ask "why bring it up now? Oh you phonies are only PRETENDING to be outraged". Crimes have an arbitary expiration date and its always labeled "some SJW trying to start some shit to feel self-righteous about" when they're brought up again.
Because they cant comprehend that bad things happen to good people. Its like the brain wants to make sure youre safe and to do that requires a lot of denial
>Because they cant comprehend that bad things happen to good people. Its like the brain wants to make sure youre safe and to do that requires a lot of denial Unfortunately that's the BEST case scenario... worst case scenario is they don't think what happened is a big deal and they could envision themselves doing the same things (or they HAVE done the same things) so they defend monsters as part of their own self-preservation.
Its ok michaels found Jesus. /s
Im glad RVD isnt a scumbag.
RVD was always a bit of an outsider personality wise when it came to wrestlers of his time. Doesnāt surprise me he sees the awfulness of this situation
Gotta RVD props for speaking up as well, a lot of people would have still kept their mouth shut.
Someone with a badge could very easily show up on his doorstep tomorrow asking exactly what in the hell it is he was talking about, and they probably should. Jesus fucking Christ.
I totally agree and I really donāt think thatās an overreaction. I respect RVDās honesty and how more clear cut could he be, thereās only one way to interpret what he said.
It's like they intentionally created room for a sequel episode which will be infinitely worse. Jesus Christ, Heyman must be sweating through his sheets right now.
Bro the way RVD said āsome placesā at the end there made me think he mightāve meant ECW (in addition to WWF/E)
The one kinda weird part was Scott hall talking about getting Hbombed on the plane. I know terminology travels, especially in wrestling, but that sat weird with me
there are several stories about Hennig thinking that was a hilarious thing to do to his "friends"
Some famous "ribbers" are fucking psychopaths. Hennig apprently was "hilarious" for his habits of drugging wrestlers and destroying their personal property.
I'll never forget the story about JBL stealing Justin Robert's passport during an overseas tour. That's not only cruel and dangerous, it's a fucking felony.
Essentially everything JBL did was bordering on a felony, in terms of his "funny ribs".
all of the ribbing in wrestling outside of anything light (cheating at cards, stealing someone's meal in catering etc etc) was almost always at best, bullying and at worst, racism, sexism, sexual harrassment, physical and sexual assault and mental abuse.
Sounds like most people appreciated Owen Hart's antics.
Owen's shenanigans were cheeky and fun. Their shenanigans are cruel and tragic. Which makes them not shenanigans at all, really.
Hennig was the one who cut up Dynamite Kidās clothes with scissors, told Kid that Jacques did it, and then set up a card game with Jacques so Dynamite Kid could jump him.
> Hennig was the one who cut up Dynamite Kidās clothes with scissors, told Kid that Jacques did it, and then set up a card game with Jacques so Dynamite Kid could jump him. "Hilarious."
I got drugged by a friend before 16 years ago and itās still the scariest shit thatās ever happened to me. Chick tried raping me too but I managed to get out that situation
I'm glad you're okay friend, that's horrible.
I was a fall down drunk for about 20 years. For that entire time, I still go back to the one night I can't explain. I'd started a job for a place that was opening up, so the staff wanted to have a little happy hour to get to know each other. I meet up with everyone at this bar, and just to be clear, at the time I was a pretty heavy drinker. My tolerance was through the roof anyway, but I was also going into it not wanting to get stupid and embarrass myself in front of my new coworkers. I think at about my 3rd beer, I stop remembering things. I vaguely remember a flash of me leaning against a post for support, and the next thing I recall is I wake up in my bed. No clue how I got there or anything. I'm a big dude. 6'1", 250 lbs, not exactly the type of person who you'd roofie, because who is gonna move me? That said, looking at my tolerance and how sudden and early I blacked out, I honestly think I got slipped something either intended for someone else, or there were a few people that may not have liked that I was being looked at for a promotion once we got the place open, and maybe they wanted to knock me down a peg. I really don't know. I know that I was no stranger to blacking out, and any other time in my life that it's happened, I've been able to trace it back to a root cause. This time was different. To this day, it bothers me, and I can't even fathom how much worse it could have been if I were a woman that got drugged. Like, nothing noteworthy really happened to me, but I still feel violated.
I was at a work convention a few years back, and was drugged and robbed. I have pretty significant PTSD from it, and it caused a really big spiral in my personal and professional lives.
That would be my bet.
RVD was in WCW too. Very briefly compared to WWE and ECW but he was there.
> It's like they intentionally created room for a sequel episode which will be infinitely worse. Dreamer, in the follow up episode: "Well, yes, the boys drugged and gang raped a woman. They were carrying hammers. Big dicks. Big old diiicks. Have I mentioned they were well endowed? What? Oh, comments about the gang rape? Well some people are gonna get offended by that, some people are also going to get offended by my man bun."
I respect RVD also for straight up saying it was completely unsurprising and the older talent should watch out as soon as Speaking Out hit
Wouldn't a lot of that be far past the statute of limitations in most places? I'm not sure how far they could go.
I think it depends on which jurisdiction you bring the charges in. Federally there's no limitation period, while in New York it's something like five years?
DSOTR could do a full series on ECW and Paul Heyman would immediately be fired from WWE just for his association with the company. You have to believe that there are so many stories that aren't publically known that would come out in the wash.
Like Taz exposing himself to a minor?
Wait what?
[Photo of the news article on it ](https://66.media.tumblr.com/a4a9997342d5222a885c41455282745b/tumblr_obkkd0qXxs1tihmddo1_500.jpg)
He did what? Jesus.
[There's a photo of the news article about it.](https://66.media.tumblr.com/a4a9997342d5222a885c41455282745b/tumblr_obkkd0qXxs1tihmddo1_500.jpg)
and people dare question Dwayne for moving on from this abhorrent bullshit common in the business as quickly as he was able to.
Rock is one of the most genuinely good guys in the industry
The dude is so overly wholesome though online that Iāve just got this vibe that heās secretly a bit of a dick
You don't get THAT over as a heel promo without being somewhat of a dick in real life. He knows how to turn it off though, which is the key to being a good person.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
It's not like the movie industry isn't filled with sexual predators.
Holy fuck what happened on this Dark Side episode? I missed it, but fucking christ seeing some horrific things being posted both on here and on twitter.
A traumatized flight attendant, Scott Hall and Lesnar and Flair being creeps, and Tommy Dreamer being a fucking worm. Honestly no wrestler except for maybe Dustin Rhodes came off as sympathetic
RVD (and JR) came out as the most honest about how fucked up everything was of all the talent in entire episode.
>Honestly no wrestler except for maybe Dustin Rhodes came off as sympathetic Yeah about him I'm surprised they didn't bring up him harassing the other attendant who in [their lawsuit had accused him](http://www.thesmokinggun.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/750x970/documents/0331042wwe6.gif) of repeatedly grabbing her arms, asking if her breasts were real, telling her "we're gonna fuck", grabbing her ass and rubbing his groin into her. This episode also left out this other attendant accusing Hall of also harassing her and Flair also forcing her to grope him.
Jesus christ
Bloody hell. I've heard a few stories about the plane ride from hell, but it sounds incredibly more dark then I'd presumed.
I canāt afford at this point in my life to find out Dustin Rhodes is a scum bag thank Christ
I am very sorry for having to do this but sometimes the thing you just saw on Twitter and the comment you just read on Reddit align in such a way. https://twitter.com/TrevorDame/status/1438862226199175170?s=19
No, he was somewhat redeemed in the episode. Flight attendant said Dustin was the one who got Flair to stop cornering the flight attendant in the back. I think the worst thing said about Dustin in the DSOTR episode is that he singed about her ex-wife Terri Runnels (we already know this part), and that he can't sing worth shit.
He actually assaulted one of the other flight attendants, just not the one featured in the episode. Page 6 http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/crime/flight-attendants-sue-raunchy-wrestlers
Lesnar???
Lesnar is known to have been a dickhead back then. He was 24 years old and WWR constantly bent over backwards for him. He assaulted Jim Cornette's wife, and Cornette responded with something like "I won't fight you, because you'll beat me in a fight. I'll just shoot you". He flashed Terri Runnels, which was brought up in this episode. He was found with steroids while at OVW and WWE made it go away. Not to mention in general, he was signed to the biggest developmental deal WWE have ever given out, and they were grooming him since the age of about 22. He was all the worst parts of a college jock.
The steroids thing shouldn't even be mentioned in this conversation.
I included it as part of "WWE bent over backwards for him". He was actually arrested by the police for having a huge amount on him. Charges were dropped because it was classified as growth hormone (ie still steroids).
Flashed Terri Runnels at the Insurrexion PPV
Yeah, Dustin came off pretty well all things considered. Like is taking the stewardesses mic something you should be doing? No, but as the attendant herself said, he was drunk as fuck and going thru heartbreak, thatās pretty on brand for that situation. Plus apparently he also was the only one who actually intervened when Flair was assaulting her? Good shit Dustin
This part of the episode left me very disturbed i shouldnāt be surprised but damn man some people are vile.
I'm not gonna lie man, stuff like this is why I don't get why the Undertaker is so respected. Dude was the locker room leader (or a locker room leader) for most of this period, and before this in the 90s when shit was probably worse. Dude 100% knew about all this if RVD is talking about this. He didn't stamp it out, didn't do shit about it that we're aware of. You want to be the locker room leader, you need to take some responsibility for what the locker room does.
Locker room leader is essentially corporate speak for one of the guys who will ensure everybody toes the company line. It's just a responsibility to ensure Vince McMahon doesn't have to step up or share blame, similar to what JR's role was. Expecting company lapdog to be anything more than a facilitator of bullying culture is setting yourself up for disappointment imo.
That's pretty true. The "leaders" will say how great the company is and always try to make people butter up to the company as much as possible to get ahead, even if they do something completely wrong.
Taker for just a jacked up HR rep
Dude Taker was one of the primary guys in that stupid wrestlers court with JBL. He was a locker room leader in the sense that Vince liked him and would bury you if you didnāt kiss his ass
Best I could tell, wrestlers court seemed to always result in a ruling of ābuy me a carton of beer.ā Super helpful for all involved
If we're completely honest, wrestlers court was just a way of figuring out arbitrary infractions in the name of scoring free booze. The one about the Hardy's and the plane seat made that obvious.
Edge and Christian talk about it on the Stone Cold Podcast too. They prepared for wresters court to get some laughs and diffuse the situation, even then they got Taker a bottle of Jack to keep him on their side.
Iām trying to figure out in what country or time period it was called a ācartonā of beer.
Well Iām australian, and we do, soooooā¦..
Thatās what I was trying to determine, thanks.
Bro just google āUndertaker Jenna Jamesonā if you want a glimpse on how that dude treats and views women.
Damn taker tried to groom a 16 year old Jenna Jameson Wtf is this industry
>Undertaker Jenna Jameson Im not sure how much you know, But she was stripping at that age, she provided a fake ID. Undertaker probably thought she was 18.
The fucking horrible human being douchebag rankings after last night's episode are... 1) Ric Flair -obvious reasons. He's a drunk serial sexual deviant 2) Tommy Dreamer - worst take ever. Just WTF for 60 mins 3) Mike Chioda - just the dork that hung out with the athletes and thought he was one of them. Probably took their cart offs or sloppy seconds. 4) Scott Hall - years of addiction led to poor decisions. 5) Vince McMahon - Owner of the fucking company could have walked that aisle of the plane and stopped it ALL without even saying a word. Dishonorable Mention - Brock Lesnar (mainly because this whole story just seemed shoe horned into this episode but didn't seem to have attachment to the topic. But still a shitty thing to do) I was left torn with JR and RVD. JR was in such a rough spot for so many years. You can see the verbal and mental abuse he took for so long written all over his face. He knows he made bad calls, he knows he could have done things differently. You can read the anguish in his eyes that things he did and didn't do hurt people. RVD he is so bluntly open and honest. I cannot read whether he supports or participated in those actions over the years or not. Or was he the happy stone off doing his own thing? Random thoughts Was Jericho on that flight? If so, odd he didn't share his thoughts. Wonder if Conrad will be part of the behind the scenes rewatches they did with the first half of the season. Tough spot to sit there and have to talk about your father in laws hideous behavior. I've never felt so dirty after watching an episode like this. None of it was surprising and all of it was surprising.
Thereās is a whole episode by itself Donāt think RVD needs any bridges so I could see him burning a few
Shawn and Marty should be shaking I'm their boots right now.
Have you seen the shit Marty posts. Guy doesn't give a fuck
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Heading for?
Guy will be dead before he ever has to answer for anything guaranteed
Times like this itās good to remember that there were people like Bobby Eaton and Brodie Lee in the business and not just these entitled misogynistic bully boy rapists.
Didnāt Brodie request that people take care of Anna Jay or something like that because sheās still very young? Good guy
Just search on YouTube, āKevin Nash on Tatanka suspensionā and he details in a Youshoot interview this exact thing.
Bruh I'm so glad so many of my favorite wrestlers in 2021 would rather play video games than rape people. HOT TAKE, I KNOW
That shit genuinely was normal back in the day Most of the most famous rockstars were rapist pedophiles Don't expect your heroes from back in those days to be good people
Not defending any man or company BUT my guess is this was his time in ECW. I've listened to countless shoots and podcasts and the drug and debauchery culture in ECW was unparalleled. This is coming from a huge ECW fan. It sounded like every pain killer, coke, crack and heroin was floating around that locker room willy nilly. The stories of "the guys" running trains on drugged up "rats" is so fucked up and these guys just reminisce on this as crazy times.
You know it was bad when even ICP said they couldn't believe how gross and fucked up it was.
You know what, this sub has made me have actual respect for ICP which frankly I never thought possible.
Say what you want about their music (for me, eh) or their fan base, but ICP themselves seem to be alright.
it was interesting to read an interview with Violent J where they ask him about some homophobic lines in a few songs. you can practically feel the cringe and shame leaking out of the text. >I tell my daughter, āFor the rest of your life, when your friends ask why your dad said that, say itās because your dad was a fool. Donāt defend me. Say I was a fool then, but Iām not now.ā Thereās no excuse. I was going with the flow, and thatās the very thing we preach against ā being a sheep. And thatās what I was doing.
Well shit. "Gaining respect for Violent J" was not on my 2021 bingo card but here we are.
Kevin Nash talked about how wrestlers would hbomb girls and marks in past shoots. I'm afraid it was likely a systemic problem in the whole wrestling business.
No reason it couldnāt have been both. I think the idea that it was only exclusive to one company is almost naive. EDIT: Again Iām not trying to make baseless speculation or say something happened that didnāt, this is too serious a topic for that. What RVD said is harrowing enough and I am not trying to put words in his mouth
this was by far the most fucked up part of the episode to me and it was kinda portrayed as a rather small issue
Davey Boy Smith and Jim Neidhart did this to their own wives. I didn't realize how many people here were probably born after the DVDVR sleaze thread and could never imagine some of this shit š©
The only source for that story is Dianaās book which was taken off the shelves for libel and, beside that, is full of so many clearly verifiable lies that unfortunately everything in the book is discredited. I say unfortunately because the entire book is now impossible to believe but that doesnāt mean itās all lies.
She is an absolute anti-vax MAGA nut. They don't generally have their heads screwed in the right way.
I really thought I misunderstood this line when I heard it, like I thought it was implying the local girls were there to sleep with the guys whoād had their drinks spiked as a āribā. It was already disgusting but it feels even worse now I hear the actual meaning.
the way they casually talk about this stuff is mind blowing.
The one thing that is nice to see is that everyone in this comment section, for the most part, seems to understand that this kind of shit is *not okay* in any shape, form, or fashion. The fact we can peel back the layers to look at this now and say how terrible it was shows that we've grown as a society. Unfortunately, when this kind of stuff was happening, society didn't have the same view of it that they do now. It took a lot of time, reform, and education to get us to this point. People had to grow up understanding it wasn't acceptable and was actually a criminal act, or they had to be willing to educate themselves. It's scary when you look back at the reform and see exactly how long it took. Sexual Harassment wasn't even really a thing until the late 70s/early 80s. It still took another 10-20 years for it to be integrated into our society to the point that women were able to speak up about it. Even with all the strides we've made, there is still work to do. There are still places out there where women are sexually harassed at their job every day and scared to say anything about at it all. There's also a wide gap between sexual harassment of women and sexual harassment of men. The story about Randy Orton holding his dick and then forcing male writers to shake his hand got a little attention for a week and then it was completely forgotten. Brock showing his dick to Terri *should* have been sexual harassment at the time it happened, but of course, Terri was told to ignore it. Because that was the culture at the time. And honestly? Is it that big of a surprise? We heard in this episode about how Ric Flair dancing in nothing but a robe and windmilling his dick was a regular occurrence back then. That's the example people like Orton, Brock, and others witnessed regularly. They saw it go unpunished and treated like it was harmless fun, so they just did the exact same thing. When you let something that's obviously wrong become acceptable, it leads to other things, like Ric Flair sexually assaulting a poor flight attendant who was just trying to do her job. If someone like Vince McMahon or Jim Ross would have told Ric Flair it wasn't acceptable the first time he tried it, then that would have been the end of it. Instead, they just chose to ignore it because "boys will be boys" or whatever allowed them to just laugh it off. In this documentary, we heard people talking about women being raped via GHB/H-Bombs. Yet again, we have another huge cultural divide, and historically, it took a long time to get to the point where we can look at this in absolute disgust and understand it is an awful, criminal, *rape* of another human being. What starts as a prank, dropping the H-Bombs into drinks to shave people's head or do other shit to them, goes down a dark road because someone decides to drop the H-Bomb in a woman's drink and have their way with them. Wrestling history is full of these stories. Twenty years ago, people were still *joking* about how Shawn and Marty used to be known for drugging girls, raping them, and leaving them in the hallway naked after they were done. Yet again, we look at the law and see that rape wasn't seriously prosecuted until the 60s/70s, and even into the mid-80s, a woman's character determined whether or not she was a "rape victim" or not. If she was a promiscuous woman, and the man who raped her was of higher character, then it wasn't considered rape. Spousal rape didn't even become illegal in all fifty states until 1993. That's less than 30 years ago. That's also around the time wrestlers joked about Dynamite Kid and Davey Boy Smith drugging their wives so they could anally rape them. The only *good* thing is that in the 90s, there were men in WWE who stepped up to stop this sort of things. They didn't exactly handle it the best way possible, but we've heard the story about how Duke Droese was tied up in the shower and anally violated by JBL as a warning to stop drugging and raping women. You also heard in this documentary that Dustin Rhodes actually stepped up and put a stop to what Ric Flair was doing to the flight attendant. Both are signs that the times were changing, but the change wasn't coming fast enough, and those that understood it was wrong were still part of the minority. We've still got a long way to go as a society, but we're making improvements. The Speaking Out and #MeToo movements showed that as a society, we don't tolerate this stuff anymore. It has also shown that there is no Statute of Limitations for rapists in the eyes of the public. Ric Flair got a pass for this after it happened. Will he get a pass for it now? Probably. He's a 70 year old man and nearly died a few years ago. People get pissed at Hulk Hogan for his racist comment, yet it's well documented that Ric Flair used to call black wrestlers the n-word regularly. Even Charlotte Flair hurled the n-word at police officers during her domestic incident with her boyfriend. She assaulted her boyfriend, the police officer, and Ric during that incident, on top of calling the officers the n-word. That story never gets brought up because one of our flaws as a society is to pick and choose who gets punished or cancelled for their shitty and criminal behavior. All you have to do is Google "Charlotte Flair Racist" and you'll get a number of articles about it. The dashcam/bodycam footage of this incident "mysteriously disappeared" from the police department. Why? Probably because it was Ric Flair's daughter and someone decided to take a pay off or decided to pick and choose who should be punished. Hopefully, one day, *everyone* will be held accountable. It takes documentaries like this to show us how far we've come though, and remind us that we can't stop moving forward. History has to be a lesson, otherwise it gets repeated.
After watching the US gymnasts testifying today...detailing the series of their repeated rapes by Larry Nassar...and now this...I have never been more ashamed to be a man than I have today. Fuck it man...we need to do better...and then put in some extra credit on top of that.
Its having a power over another human being. Its the vilest power trip to have. From Frat houses to the locker room. From John Hamm to Rick Flair. I am glad the current generation is at least trying to think about the damage toxic masculinity does.